A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[The Welsh Lad]

@ Lord Rodwell

Only time will tell if this hinders the further developement of the game by it damageing the core community.

[Loversleaper]

If you know where to look you can find stats on FM2011 illegal downloads , SEGA and SI will have those stats and it numbers well into the hundreds of thousands from the sites I can find and that doesnt include numerous private trackers where unless you know how to access the site you will never find out. And no im not gonna tell you the sites , I check these things as part of my job so I know what im looking for

Steam isnt a burden on any system purchased in the last 3 years IMO , running a browser is more intensive than anything running in the background - hell set it to low priority and it will chow through nothing while FM is running.

How many sales will SI lose over the activation ? A few but not that many IMO , how many will it gain ? Probably more than it will lose , and TBH if the game is any way decent it will sell very well indeed. I dont think losses by SEGA will have an input into using Steam, that is the premier download system and if you take a step back it could be a lot worse SI could be partnered with EA and be forced to use Origin which is the worst POS ive ever seen in my life

So, of these hundreds of thousands - how many of them are downloaded here in the "west" and how many of them are downloaded in 3rd world countries? If this is your job, do you take these things into consideration or do you assume that one size fits all?

[Lord Rowell]

@ Lord Rodwell

Only time will tell if this hinders the further developement of the game by it damageing the core community.

It's Lord "Rowell" but yes, I agree

[Wakers]

It should do. Sometimes its perfectly fine for a major release, and sometimes it doesn't work for some people.

[stevetranmere]

having had a few days to think about this, and posting a couple of times, the more i think about this the more and more i get annoyed about 1 thing. I am still being forced to use ONE system, and then KEEP it there afterwards. If i was given the OPTION to get rid of steam after activating, and play my game as normal i might think about purchasing fm 2012..

all i am asking for here SI, is the choice to get rid of steam after activation, after all it does nothing to help me after i activate? (im still confused as to why its called a ONE time activation, if steam has to continually check my activation when i load up a game)

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Here's a thought, I supose those "Terrorists" that attacked the servers back on FM09 release day, I presume they are currently planning their 2011 "theatre of operation" (as they now have a chance to do their thing again). Are we confident that they will be thwarted this year?

[Wakers]

They won't do that, too many of them use Steam to play games themselves

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

They won't do that, too many of them use Steam to play games themselves

Yes or perhaps it was the long term business strategy dept of Steam that back in 2008 waged the.....whoops I had better not suggest that! LOL

Still, Steam have done alright out of FM12 this year - well done guys!

[Lord Rowell]

Whole walls of text won't change anything, for FM12 it's steam or nothing, after that depends on the results of this year.

I can't help being amazed at the rhetoric though, you'd think they'd reintroduced slavery and declared war on the Amazonian Indians, it's a bloody game for Christ's sake

Nope, but you just managed to say it in about five words it doesn't need whole essays and as nothing said here will change it for FM12 it's just becoming a thread for people to show off their debating skills.

The time to make representations is after release if it turns out to be a massive failure I'd think, although if that is the case I doubt it'll need representations.

I thought about replying to these posts last night and decided not to but, on reflection and seeing the tone of other posts, I think a response is necessary and justified.

Both posts above were made very soon after my detailed response to Miles Jacobsen's post. While I can't prove this, I'm pretty confident that both of these posts were aimed at me, given the timing and the nature of the comments (emboldened).

I'm disappointed you feel that way, that you dismiss posts on their size and complexity and, IMO, by doing this, try to dumb down the discussion here and nulify it.

The irony here, of course, is that if you don't like essays / walls of texts, you should have said that to David SEGA (the OP) and then to Miles.

[mantralux]

having had a few days to think about this, and posting a couple of times, the more i think about this the more and more i get annoyed about 1 thing. I am still being forced to use ONE system, and then KEEP it there afterwards. If i was given the OPTION to get rid of steam after activating, and play my game as normal i might think about purchasing fm 2012..

This is exactly it. I don't mind having to activate through Steam. My problem is that I have to keep Steam installed after activation, and that I have to have it active every time I want to play the game. I just did a fresh restart of my computer, and Steam takes 19 seconds to start. Football Manager takes about 70 seconds from pressing 'Play' in Steam to the main menu shows up. Which means that of the roughly 90 seconds it takes to start Football Manager, Steam is roughly 22% of that time. And when it's active, Steam takes up resources like a foreground application, as opposed to a background one.

There are plenty of valid negatives towards Steam, but I could live with all of them if it meant I could use it only for activation, and then never see it again.

[Jibby123]

having had a few days to think about this, and posting a couple of times, the more i think about this the more and more i get annoyed about 1 thing. I am still being forced to use ONE system, and then KEEP it there afterwards. If i was given the OPTION to get rid of steam after activating, and play my game as normal i might think about purchasing fm 2012..

all i am asking for here SI, is the choice to get rid of steam after activation, after all it does nothing to help me after i activate? (im still confused as to why its called a ONE time activation, if steam has to continually check my activation when i load up a game)

I'm a bit computer thick, but is that legit? I'm stuck with steam crap whilst I want to play the game?

I'd never get a free copy of FM and have bought every SI CM/FM game as soon as I physically could on/after release day since about 96/97. In terms of value for money (hrs enjoyment per penny) nothing comes close (including the missus ) so am more than happy to shell out 30 quid, but this steam crap is my arnhem.

I'm going to wait this year. Let you guys test it until patched, then really consider whether FM11 remains my choice of game well in to 2012. It won't make a jot of difference to anyone but me, but hey ho.

[Kriss]

you should have said that to David SEGA (the OP) and then to Miles.

Actually I did to Miles, not for the first time either so don't be paranoid, I'm consistent in that respect whichever side of any particular fence people are sitting.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

I thought about replying to these posts last night and decided not to but, on reflection and seeing the tone of other posts, I think a response is necessary and justified.

Both posts above were made very soon after my detailed response to Miles Jacobsen's post. While I can't prove this, I'm pretty confident that both of these posts were aimed at me, given the timing and the nature of the comments (emboldened).

I'm disappointed you feel that way, that you dismiss posts on their size and complexity and, IMO, by doing this, try to dumb down the discussion here and nulify it.

The irony here, of course, is that if you don't like essays / walls of texts, you should have said that to David SEGA (the OP) and then to Miles.

It is worth adding that the nay sayers in this thread are not being negative for fun, they still remember the inexcusable debacle of2008, thats the problem. For those that dont remember the whole activation process failed due to various reasons, basically it was a badly thought out plan that is being foisted off on us again this year. One of the saddest moments from that day of shame was when a female Sega staff memeber who was drafted in to reply to the whirlwind of emails from angry customers was subjected to what can only be called dogs abuse. At that time I was angry & frustrated with SI and I sympathised with the frustrations of all (even those being so anti social, though there was no excuse for being so unreasonable) and the thought came to mind, "How did the CM/FM fans games come to this?"

[B.G]

Oh no… I play on a Mac, and I used to install it with the CD, FM11 though I bought through steam, and while FM has never crashed before, it does now, ALL THE TIME, both steam and FM are very unstable.
I was looking forward to installing FM12 fresh with the CD instead of steam to avoid that extremely unstable crappy interface, don't get me wrong, steam is a good idea and all that, but the execution is just horrible, being disconnected from steam out of nothing is something that happens daily, and not just for me, all my friends on steam get disconnected at the same time, and steam often drags FM with it, I have now had to turn on save automatically daily on FM to not lose my progress

Very disappointing SI, but can't say i'm surprised.

[Lord Rowell]

Just in case they've been forgotten, a reminder of when we had a democratic right to vote here.

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...eam-activation

^^^

pigfacemonkeyman's original poll, now closed.

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...AM-for-FM-2012

^^^

pauly1616's follow-up poll, also closed.

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...eam-you-decide!

^^^

Here was a 3rd poll that barely drew breath, after 3 votes, then closed.

If you view the results, they're not exactly thumping endorsements of SI/SEGA policy.

As I have said before, very disturbing that these have been closed. I understand that the moderators want to keep the discussion in one place but I'm sure posts could be moved, threads could be made "poll only" or they could even have supported a new thread, early in this discussion, that was "poll only". That none of these options occurred makes me conclude that SI/SEGA don't want a situation where the level of support / opposition is quantified.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

This is exactly it. I don't mind having to activate through Steam. My problem is that I have to keep Steam installed after activation, and that I have to have it active every time I want to play the game. I just did a fresh restart of my computer, and Steam takes 19 seconds to start. Football Manager takes about 70 seconds from pressing 'Play' in Steam to the main menu shows up. Which means that of the roughly 90 seconds it takes to start Football Manager, Steam is roughly 22% of that time. And when it's active, Steam takes up resources like a foreground application, as opposed to a background one.

There are plenty of valid negatives towards Steam, but I could live with all of them if it meant I could use it only for activation, and then never see it again.

Yep, use steam initially, then uninstall and patch manually in the future. I could live with (if all goes smoothly) that but I guess Steam wore the trousers in this little shoddy "deal" and hence Staeam get access to my PC on 21st October and always thereafter - great. And I know in theory they gather "harmless" data for marketting purposes but if a Customer Survey Company phoned me asking the same questions I would fob the off as "Prospect uninterested". I cannot metaphorically tell Steam to "F" off in the same way.

[Bantam Searley95]

So what about the people that don't have internet? I do, obviously, but it will lose customers that way.

Can we install the game on more than one PC? If so, great, as I have other family members who would want to play it.

[nessi]

It's Lord "Rowell" but thank for the compliment.

sorry mate, clearly I've been playing to much FM this year! see maybe I should feel relieved that I won't play FM12, thus overcoming my addiction...

[Kriss]

Yep, use steam initially, then uninstall and patch manually in the future. I could live with (if all goes smoothly) that but I guess Steam wore the trousers in this little shoddy "deal" and hence Staeam get access to my PC on 21st October and always thereafter - great. And I know in theory they gather "harmless" data for marketting purposes but if a Customer Survey Company phoned me asking the same questions I would fob the off as "Prospect uninterested". I cannot metaphorically tell Steam to "F" off in the same way.

The data gathering is optional, not mandatory, check the Steam site if you want specific details.

[Loversleaper]

It is worth adding that the nay sayers in this thread are not being negative for fun, they still remember the inexcusable debacle of2008, thats the problem. For those that dont remember the whole activation process failed due to various reasons, basically it was a badly thought out plan that is being foisted off on us again this year. One of the saddest moments from that day of shame was when a female Sega staff memeber who was drafted in to reply to the whirlwind of emails from angry customers was subjected to what can only be called dogs abuse. At that time I was angry & frustrated with SI and I sympathised with the frustrations of all (even those being so anti social, though there was no excuse for being so unreasonable) and the thought came to mind, "How did the CM/FM fans games come to this?"

What problem? Oh, you mean the was it a 1 or l - or maybe you meant the was it a o or the 0 problem?...aarrggghhh, don't get me started...

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

The data gathering is optional, not mandatory, check the Steam site if you want specific details.

Fair enough, I wasnt aware of that. But why must we always have Steam running?

[Lord Rowell]

Actually I did to Miles, not for the first time either so don't be paranoid, I'm consistent in that respect whichever side of any particular fence people are sitting.

I promise you I'm not paranoid. I like consistency though. If you wanted to be consistent in your approach, you should have made the comment wider, though I appreciate you've made it now . Though I do disagree with you, I personally think that long posts can help to add detail and depth to a case, whichever side they are on.

[Jibby123]

Just in case they've been forgotten, a reminder of when we had a democratic right to vote here.

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...eam-activation

^^^

pigfacemonkeyman's original poll, now closed.

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...AM-for-FM-2012

^^^

pauly1616's follow-up poll, also closed.

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...eam-you-decide!

^^^

Here was a 3rd poll that barely drew breath, after 3 votes, then closed.

If you view the results, they're not exactly thumping endorsements of SI/SEGA policy.

As I have said before, very disturbing that these have been closed. I understand that the moderators want to keep the discussion in one place but I'm sure posts could be moved, threads could be made "poll only" or they could even have supported a new thread, early in this discussion, that was "poll only". That none of these options occurred makes me conclude that SI/SEGA don't want a situation where the level of support / opposition is quantified.

From the threads you linked and from the horse's mouth in those threads the forum members are irrelevant.

Nice one SI.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

What problem? Oh, you mean the was it a 1 or l - or maybe you meant the was it a o or the 0 problem?...aarrggghhh, don't get me started...

Think of it as an additional "mini game" thrown in for free. :-)

Actually none of this is funny in any way.

[Kriss]

I promise you I'm not paranoid. I like consistency though. If you wanted to be consistent in your approach, you should have made the comment wider, though I appreciate you've made it now . Though I do disagree with you, I personally think that long posts can help to add detail and depth to a case, whichever side they are on.

Actually I don't object to the original long posts particularly, it's just that people insist on quoting the bloody things in full every time

[Jibby123]

The data gathering is optional, not mandatory, check the Steam site if you want specific details.

Weird that you always have to dig to opt out of these raping trawl of personal data. If you trust ticking the boxs, reading reams actually opts you out (I mean who checks).

Toe the party line Kriss.

[nessi]

The data gathering is optional, not mandatory, check the Steam site if you want specific details.

as a rule, that's true. But from their privacy policy:

"While Valve collects personally identifiable information on a voluntary basis, for certain products and online sites, Valve's collection of personally identifiable information may be a requirement for access to the product or site."

What is "certain"? How do you know at some point FM12 won't be one of those "certain products"?

[Lord Rowell]

So what about the people that don't have internet? I do, obviously, but it will lose customers that way.

Can we install the game on more than one PC? If so, great, as I have other family members who would want to play it.

This is a significant concern of mine.

I'm also concerned, the way the recent discussion on this thread is going, is that a compromise of one-time activation by Steam may end up being a future solution - but that's no use to people without internet access, which in turn is a genuine equity issue.

[Lord Rowell]

Actually I don't object to the original long posts particularly, it's just that people insist on quoting the bloody things in full every time

If a person in a prominent role i.e David SEGA, or Miles Jacobsen, or for that matter David Cameron, Ed Milliband, Nick Clegg, whoever, says / writes stuff, then detailed scrutiny is a part of living in a liberal democracy. If you're in that position, you have to accept that, for all the rewards you have for that, you'll be under examination.

I'm not suggesting Miles = the Prime Minister but the point is the same.

[Kriss]

as a rule, that's true. But from their privacy policy:

"While Valve collects personally identifiable information on a voluntary basis, for certain products and online sites, Valve's collection of personally identifiable information may be a requirement for access to the product or site."

What is "certain"? How do you know at some point FM12 won't be one of those "certain products"?

It may be is the key, the default situation is that it isn't, if there was a reason for them to require it for any particular individual they would have to request it of that individual (or rather they'd say you can't have access without providing it)
I don't of know any case when they have but I'm pretty sure that proviso is made to cover some kind of exceptional circumstance.

[Jibby123]

It may be is the key, the default situation is that it isn't, if there was a reason for them to require it for any particular individual they would have to request it of that individual (or rather they'd say you can't have access without providing it)
I don't of know any case when they have but I'm pretty sure that proviso is made to cover some kind of exceptional circumstance.

Like somebody way more massive than steam (google) and their street cars did?? How are google doing after getting caught out?? just fine. who cares right?

[Kriss]

Like somebody way more massive than steam (google) and their street cars did?? How are google doing after getting caught out?? just fine. who cares right?

Not quite sure what you're meaning there tbh, for Steam to take any info you have to opt in, there's no comparison.

[nessi]

It may be is the key, the default situation is that it isn't, if there was a reason for them to require it for any particular individual they would have to request it of that individual (or rather they'd say you can't have access without providing it)
I don't of know any case when they have but I'm pretty sure that proviso is made to cover some kind of exceptional circumstance.

The default situation is whatever steam desires, especially considering section 9 of their subscriber agreement. The fact is with this kind of amibiguous policy steam CAN make the data gathering a mandatory feat. If you think it's unlikely to happen, you MAY BE right. But you don't know for sure.

[Loversleaper]

People who buy the game and dont have/can't get access to the internet are not getting blamed for anything, they are just an unfourtunate section of people that has a result of can't play FM12

But, to ignore parts of the post that explains why SI and SEGA have made this decision and make your own conlusion that people without internet, people who cant afford it etc. are being blamed or victimised is obsured. To be frankly honest.

To be frankly honest, I never said that the people who can't afford it are being victimised . But what can't you understand? Let's look at this for a moment:

There is a problem with piracy, so what should be done? Of course, let's slap the people that don't have internet connections because obviously they are the ones doing all the pirating. Frankly, as long as you are not one of the unfortunate section of people then everything is just dandy...

[Kriss]

The default situation is whatever steam desires, especially considering section 9 of their subscriber agreement. The fact is with this kind of amibiguous policy steam CAN make the data gathering a mandatory feat. If you think it's unlikely to happen, you MAY BE right. But you don't know for sure.

They have no reason to make it mandatory, and judging from the comment in this thread alone they'd be committing business suicide if they did

Just out of interest, are you aware how many organisations are currently taking information from your computer?

[Lord Rowell]

If I were a journalist.

I've probably received or am about to receive some kind of heads-up / material re. the release of FM12.

If I'm a half-decent journalist, I'll go visit the community forums to see how the fans feel about the new release, judge the level of excitement, how the producers interact with their fans and so on.

What I see, and then conclude, will influence my decision as to a. whether to give any publicity at all and then b. what kind of publicity to give

If you were a journalist visiting these forums, now, what would you think?

[themadsheep2001]

Not quite sure what you're meaning there tbh, for Steam to take any info you have to opt in, there's no comparison.

You're a puppet of the "evil imperialist regime" clearly

[Jibby123]

Not quite sure what you're meaning there tbh, for Steam to take any info you have to opt in, there's no comparison.

Meaning I don't trust anyone to have personal info of mine. Even if I have to opt out if I dig deep, and then I have no way of checking.

It's my responsibility to stop them spying on me?? And that's fine with you?? goggle bucked that gaining info on peeps living in a house and are doing fine out of it.

I just want to buy a freaking computer game, and not being computer literate I don't want to read a shedload of text and try to work it out how I decide to stop being spied on to play football manger.

And according to the terms and conditions somebody posted here....if I don't like it I can't play a game bought off a 3rd party. Steam decide which.

SI should be paying you. Or steam.

[Kriss]

I've probably received or am about to receive some kind of heads-up / material re. the release of FM12.

If I'm a half-decent journalist, I'll go visit the community forums to see how the fans feel about the new release, judge the level of excitement, how the producers interact with their fans and so on.

What I see, and then conclude, will influence my decision as to a. whether to give any publicity at all and then b. what kind of publicity to give

If you were a journalist visiting these forums, now, what would you think?

They're specialist journalists, they've seen this many times before, they are of the industry so wouldn't make much of it at all tbh.

[Kriss]

Meaning I don't trust anyone to have personal info of mine. Even if I have to opt out if I dig deep, and then I have no way of checking.

It's my responsibility to stop them spying on me?? And that's fine with you?? goggle bucked that gaining info on peeps living in a house and are doing fine out of it.

I just want to buy a freaking computer game, and not being computer literate I don't want to read a shedload of text and try to work it out how I decide to stop being spied on to play football manger.

And according to the terms and conditions somebody posted here....if I don't like it I can't play a game bought off a 3rd party. Steam decide which.

SI should be paying you. Or steam.

They don't require personal information, all you need to provide is an email adress and I'll ask again, how many organisations are currently taking info from your computer?

[Jibby123]

They have no reason to make it mandatory, and judging from the comment in this thread alone they'd be committing business suicide if they did

Just out of interest, are you aware how many organisations are currently taking information from your computer?

Am becoming aware. Because others do it, it's fine.

Now SI are party to that. By making you go online to play a game.

[nessi]

They have no reason to make it mandatory, and judging from the comment in this thread alone they'd be committing business suicide if they did

Just out of interest, are you aware how many organisations are currently taking information from your computer?

again, you MAY BE right. Or not...

I'd say at least three, but we have a great mutual respect What I know is steam won't get any!

[Lord Rowell]

They're specialist journalists, they've seen this many times before, they are of the industry so wouldn't make much of it at all tbh.

I don't agree with your conclusion.

Also, Kriss, as an aside, we need some form of cumulative quote facility here (asking you this as a moderator ) , because all three posts here need to be together. It's fine when the forum isn't busy as people will be able to mentally link the sequenced posts, but when its busy it falls apart. At least allow cumulative quoting of, say, 3-4 posts.

[greenone]

http://www.sega.com/fm2012/?t=EnglishUSA
Still no mention of steam.

[Kriss]

Am becoming aware. Because others do it, it's fine.

Now SI are party to that. By making you go online to play a game.

SI took the same info Steam are asking for with FM10 and FM11, Steam aren't demanding it they're asking you to give it if you want to.

Microsoft, Your ISP, your AV provider and others just take it without giving you that option.

[Jibby123]

They don't require personal information, all you need to provide is an email adress and I'll ask again, how many organisations are currently taking info from your computer?

They don't do it for my benefit Kriss.

I was able to find what I wanted way before being mined to have future marketing pushed my way. Tailored for my needs according to them.

Screw it. You've convinced me. SI can go whistle for my £30 this year, not just because of steam but the attitude of you and SI with the lording of three wise monkey thinking of hear no evil see no etc etc. One loyal customer from the 90's gone for a while. Besides, am enjoying FM11.

[Kriss]

I don't agree with your conclusion.

Also, Kriss, as an aside, we need some form of cumulative quote facility here (asking you this as a moderator ) , because all three posts here need to be together. It's fine when the forum isn't busy as people will be able to mentally link the sequenced posts, but when its busy it falls apart. At least allow cumulative quoting of, say, 3-4 posts.

As I deal with them on a daily basis you really ought to agree with my conclusion I can honestly claim to know better than you on this one.

I'll ask the forum admins on the other one, V Bulletin is a horrible piece of kit and the facility is probably already there but unrecognisable.

[Lord Rowell]

When FM11 was in publicity mode last year, I'm sure, unless my memory is failing me, that Miles was blogging on sources external from here - I think the Daily Mirror was one. My memory also tells me that this was well before the release date.

We're now about a month from the release date.

Where is the external publicity? I did a bit of an internet search and can't find much. I could be wrong so please someone help me out if I am, seriously.

[Jibby123]

SI took the same info Steam are asking for with FM10 and FM11, Steam aren't demanding it they're asking you to give it if you want to.

Microsoft, Your ISP, your AV provider and others just take it without giving you that option.

We used to have to tag war crime graves and the perpertrators used the line that the serbs, muslims or croats were doing it worse, or as well somewhere else. Not to compare, but see my point? no probably not.

This is going nowhere, i just want to play fm. not fm12 this year so thanks. helps me escape from all that. I'm done.

[hoopsta]

oh well guess ill be not getting it this year as i dont have internet at home as use my phone... and not gonna pack up pc move it to a friends house and install some 3rd party **** that i do not want on my pc... that will be 4 of us living in the same house not buying

[Loversleaper]

We used to have to tag war crime graves and the perpertrators used the line that the serbs, muslims or croats were doing it worse, or as well somewhere else. Not to compare, but see my point? no probably not.

This is going nowhere, i just want to play fm. helps me escape from all that. I'm done.

No, no, I think you're right (so, no need to go anywhere): two wrongs do make a right...

[RvN#17]

delete this plz.

[Lord Rowell]

As I deal with them on a daily basis you really ought to agree with my conclusion I can honestly claim to know better than you on this one.

I'll ask the forum admins on the other one, V Bulletin is a horrible piece of kit and the facility is probably already there but unrecognisable.

Re. the first point, I just hope, for your sake, that you're not getting sucked in and / or manipulated. It happens. Be careful, seriously. The media lionise and demonise.

Thanks for your acknowledgement of the 2nd point. If the facility isn't there then then, speaking as a person who runs a board, has admined on a large board, I'd say this one might need to move on elsewhere if this level of configurability isn''t available.

By the way, as you deal with them every day, are you some kind of media officer for SI? I'm wondering how you have to deal with them every day?

[milnerpoint]

hahaha poor Kriss, i bet he cant wait till release day

[Lord Rowell]

@ kriss

Hang on a minute.

A. You're a moderator.

B. You deal with the press every day, presumably on behalf of SI/SEGA.

Surely if you're a moderator here, you have to have neutrality? If not, it should be openly disclosed. How does all this square?

[Kriss]

Re. the first point, I just hope, for your sake, that you're not getting sucked in and / or manipulated. It happens. Be careful, seriously. The media lionise and demonise.

Thanks for your acknowledgement of the 2nd point. If the facility isn't there then then, speaking as a person who runs a board, has admined on a large board, I'd say this one might need to move on elsewhere if this level of configurability isn''t available.

By the way, as you deal with them every day, are you some kind of media officer for SI? I'm wondering how you have to deal with them every day?

I don't work for SI, they're all my personal friends from long association as I began by Beta testing FM way back and then was heavily involved with FML for five years, if you knew them as I do (and in particular Miles) you'd be a mite embarrassed about some of the things you've implied.

[Kriss]

@ kriss

Hang on a minute.

A. You're a moderator.

B. You deal with the press every day, presumably on behalf of SI/SEGA.

Surely if you're a moderator here, you have to have neutrality? If not, it should be openly disclosed. How does all this square?

I don't deal with the gaming press on behalf of SI, I know many of them because I played FML with them when they were invitees to the Alpha and Beta game worlds, the friendships out lasted FML sadly.

But feel free to start a conspiracy theory, it's all the rage here

[themadsheep2001]

I don't deal with the gaming press on behalf of SI, I know many of them because I played FML with them when they were invitees to the Alpha and Beta game worlds, the friendships out lasted FML sadly.

But feel free to start a conspiracy theroy, it's all the rage here

Did you kidnap the Lindbergh baby?

[Kriss]

Did you kidnap the Lindbergh baby?

No but I know where Arkle is

[milnerpoint]

*waits for inevitable analogy*
Kriss conspires with the devil clearly.

[milnerpoint]

No but I know where Arkle is

Wheres Waldo?

[b.paterson]

unwired does 25gb for $50. not too bad for wireless.. im sure other deals are comparable

I looked up unwired isn't this the same as the mobile USB type of broadband, as I do have a PS3 also so if I'm spending on broadband I want it to work on the console also?

[Kriss]

You know Lord Haw Haw was right, there's no real publicity out there about FM12 that I can find, last year the Mirror blogged it, they have done all those different national blogs this year but not much else that I can see

[Chad_]

Well, there goes my intended purchase of FM 2012. I had been looking forward to it, too, but I have an older computer I've used for this game and I'm afraid it couldn't handle another resource hog in Steam and still be able to run the game anywhere near like I like it.

Looks like FM 2011 will be my last in this series, or at least until clearer heads prevail and those who make the game stop making the game's customers work harder to enjoy a product rather than making things easier for what is, lest they forget (and they have) an entertainment and leisure product.

[Loversleaper]

Surely if you're a moderator here, you have to have neutrality?

Are you kidding? Just to quote the great Dirty Harry: "oppinions are like _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ , everyone's got one"

But feel free to start a conspiracy theory, it's all the rage here

I still like the one where Steam staged the meltdown in FM2008, kind of like CarGlass paying rogue kids to bash car windows accross town.

(Damn, stop mentioning those damn cars...)

I know, I know - I, too, am sorry, Kriss

[themadsheep2001]

Well, there goes my intended purchase of FM 2012. I had been looking forward to it, too, but I have an older computer I've used for this game and I'm afraid it couldn't handle another resource hog in Steam and still be able to run the game anywhere near like I like it.

Looks like FM 2011 will be my last in this series, or at least until clearer heads prevail and those who make the game stop making the game's customers work harder to enjoy a product rather than making things easier for what is, lest they forget (and they have) an entertainment and leisure product.

Steam isnt a resource hog. May i ask what specs your computer has?

[Kriss]

Well, there goes my intended purchase of FM 2012. I had been looking forward to it, too, but I have an older computer I've used for this game and I'm afraid it couldn't handle another resource hog in Steam and still be able to run the game anywhere near like I like it.

Looks like FM 2011 will be my last in this series, or at least until clearer heads prevail and those who make the game stop making the game's customers work harder to enjoy a product rather than making things easier for what is, lest they forget (and they have) an entertainment and leisure product.

I'm running FM on a 7 year old compaq lap top through Steam on my wireless network, the 3D aint to hot but otherwise it runs perfectly.

[soldierblue123]

Will the pirates now suddenly buy the game? I doubt it. People who really enjoy FM will pay for it. Those who don't really care about SI or the game will pirate it. Loyal fans are the only ones suffering from this decision to activate using Steam. But I suspect Steam are acting as a strategic partner to either SI or Sega and therefore SI will benefit which is a good thing.

[Lord Rowell]

I don't work for SI, they're all my personal friends from long association as I began by Beta testing FM way back and then was heavily involved with FML for five years, if you knew them as I do (and in particular Miles) you'd be a mite embarrassed about some of the things you've implied.

I don't deal with the gaming press on behalf of SI, I know many of them because I played FML with them when they were invitees to the Alpha and Beta game worlds, the friendships out lasted FML sadly.

But feel free to start a conspiracy theory, it's all the rage here

You said in post 2880 you deal with specialist journalists on a daily basis,, replying to my post 2876 which questioned your knowledge, which was my reply to your post 2872 that claimed your knowledge they were specialist journalists who had seen this many times before, which replied to my post 2869 about this issue in a journailstic context.

In short, you commented that they were specialist journalists and that you deal with them on a daily basis, hence you had better knowledge than us. That's quite a statement.

When I challenged your position in post 2888 re. a media position and incompatibility with the role as a moderator, you then say you don't work for SI and they're your mates. Which suggests to me that you don't have anything like the authoritative knowledge or insight you suggest.

This suggests to me that you're bluffing, you don't have anything like the knowledge or experience, other than your mates (your words) which destroys your neutrality as a moderator.

Yet you, more than anyone, have been carrying the fight for SI on this issue.

I think you are in a compromised position now. I also am very concerned that you have been allowed to moderate here, given your relationship, in your own words, with Miles et al.

[themadsheep2001]

really dont see what journalists have to do with this at all. In fact its utterly irrelevant to the rollout. This is why this thread should be closed, people seem more intent on point scoring and personal digs than anything else

[Kriss]

You said in post 2880 you deal with specialist journalists on a daily basis,, replying to my post 2876 which questioned your knowledge, which was my reply to your post 2872 that claimed your knowledge they were specialist journalists who had seen this many times before, which replied to my post 2869 about this issue in a journailstic context.

In short, you commented that they were specialist journalists and that you deal with them on a daily basis, hence you had better knowledge than us. That's quite a statement.

When I challenged your position in post 2888 re. a media position and incompatibility with the role as a moderator, you then say you don't work for SI and they're your mates. Which suggests to me that you don't have anything like the authoritative knowledge or insight you suggest.

This suggests to me that you're bluffing, you don't have anything like the knowledge or experience, other than your mates (your words) which destroys your neutrality as a moderator.

Yet you, more than anyone, have been carrying the fight for SI on this issue.

I think you are in a compromised position now. I also am very concerned that you have been allowed to moderate here, given your relationship, in your own words, with Miles et al.

Are you for real?

I'd suggest you do some research on privately owned forums to begin with, there's no requirement for neutrality and though we strive to observe democratic principles on here there's actually no requirement to do so.

This forum is the private property of Sports Interactive, read the terms of use and house rules before you start some kind of civil rights demo.

I'm not concerned whether you believe anything I say or not, I have no agenda and I'm permitted to express myself on here exactly as I want to, Moderators don't receive instruction from SI and we're not required to follow any party line.

Indeed you'll have seen some Mods express extreme displeasure over the Steam issue, I just happen to be happy with it in my FM player persona.

[Kriss]

really dont see what journalists have to do with this at all. In fact its utterly irrelevant to the rollout. This is why this thread should be closed, people seem more intent on point scoring and personal digs than anything else

No we don't want to close it, there are people with genuine concerns who deserve a place to voice them.

However people who do continue to use it as platform for petty point scoring in spite of the warnings will get short shrift from now on.

[Matt_no_7]

I think that's not possible! technically i mean.

If you get activation with steam, their system needs to be always loaded in order to do the job. So what you are asking... it's not possible.

How about a downloadable patch which activates the game? Only way to get the game activtion patch is from Steam with the activation code provided in the box. Once you have the activation patch bye bye Steam.... I don't know how possible that is but a nice place to start. It may not be a perfect idea and i'm sure there are a few holes in it but forcing us into keeping that Steam-ing turd of a programme seems.... Stupid.

[boppa]

funnily enough steam has never caused me an ounce of pain and ive been using it for years now

i genuinely have no idea what those having a meltdown about this are carrying on about

hopefully like most things in life, these people will bite the bullet and realise that all these terrible things they thought would/could/should happen, never eventuate at all....

[Super Bladesman]

People who really enjoy FM will pay for it.

So more than 80% of those people playing FM don't really enjoy it? Moving to Steamworks has been shown to hugely increase sales in territories where software theft is otherwise rife.

[Super Bladesman]

I think you are in a compromised position now. I also am very concerned that you have been allowed to moderate here, given your relationship, in your own words, with Miles et al.

Sure... because SI are going to let anyone moderate rather than people they know and trust

These are SI's forums, just like FM is SI's game. They are free to do what they like with both. Just as you are as a consumer.

[TacticalGenius]

I just have to laugh at people complaining about having to d/l a 3rd party program and saying it'll increase piracy. If I'm not mistaken, a Steam Emulator is still a 3rd party program, and a much less safe one at that. Complaining about a legitimate, safe program, but willing to download a possibly trojaned/keylogged program which really could swipe data, etc?

The warped logic of some people!

[aaron70]

But feel free to start a conspiracy theory, it's all the rage here

So suggesting that the companies involved are more interested in making money than their actual customers whilst trying to keep a veneer of caring about their customers is some conspiracy theory.

I think in the world of marketing and consumerism that is hardly a conspiracy theory. Most of us are just disappointed that SI have headed this way. But perhaps we just have to accept that would happen and probably since the split is has become more obvious every year.

Some good points have been raised that if piracy is the reason for this the logic is possibly flawed. Perhaps this has been more about making more money....hardly a conspiracy.
Paradox has been discussed as a company who openly shares its research into the idea and says DRM made no difference to their sales...conspiracy? They have increased sales based on focusing on their customers.

I would rather Sega/SI just openly said....we know this will annoy some of you...but in reality we will make a larger profit long term. Instead they just try to bluff their way through it. Too much like politicians for my liking I guess some of us remember when CM was kicking along and we all felt part of the ride, part of the community, respected, not just the "consumer". Old school perhaps.

The objective of Steam hardly needs to be questioned,get more customers, make more money, and get information that will help them make more money....not much for the conspiracy theory.

[aaron70]

I just have to laugh at people complaining about having to d/l a 3rd party program and saying it'll increase piracy. If I'm not mistaken, a Steam Emulator is still a 3rd party program, and a much less safe one at that. Complaining about a legitimate, safe program, but willing to download a possibly trojaned/keylogged program which really could swipe data, etc?

The warped logic of some people!

I think the general idea is it won't stop or slow down piracy. The arguments to explain this are all over the board. There is no warped logic in this statement. Also not one person has suggested it is a good idea to download pirated software and nobody has said they will.

Thanks for your valuable contribution.

[greenone]

I just have to laugh at people complaining about having to d/l a 3rd party program and saying it'll increase piracy. If I'm not mistaken, a Steam Emulator is still a 3rd party program, and a much less safe one at that. Complaining about a legitimate, safe program, but willing to download a possibly trojaned/keylogged program which really could swipe data, etc?

The warped logic of some people!

I wont be downloading any emulator/cracked game. I'll carry on my fm11 game. I'll probably reinstall the original champ manager so I can reminisce about how the game was before it sold its soul to sega.

[Major Raver]

Everyone has downloaded illegally in there time, people on this post, mods, people from SI Games. I have, as a 10 year boy, tape to tape with my Spectrum games, two tape recorders wired together. Borrow my mates Now 7 on vinyl, and tapping it on to tape, background noises and all, cutting out the Bros songs. As kids we don't know or understand what is wrong, as we get older we do and human nature for so many means we carry on doing it. As an adult I never had my xbox or playstation chipped, as I hated the thought of my warranty and the like being messed up. On my PC I've never used a torrent or the like, as I hate the thoughts of virus and other stuff getting on my computer.

Sega, as with all games companies have the right to protect its property, whether you like it or not. People moaning about Steam or any other activation need to understand, that without protection and a game easily cracked and available on the internet, would mean PC games would become a thing of the past or end up being pay as you play. No one wants that. Fact is, if you asked people would they download if given the chance, the day before release for free, most in here would! Would I. As that 10 year old kid with my trusty tape recorder, yep I would, but as a 39 year old father of 1, i will be putting my box of FM12 next to every copy of FM and CM released by SI, Sega or domark. (i hope a box version will always be available). So stop whining, and just install steam and stop making excuses or threats of not playing as nearly all will be.

Time for CM93/94 on my phone now, right what's the score of match 2 on page 30.

[aaron70]

People moaning about Steam or any other activation need to understand, that without protection and a game easily cracked and available on the internet, would mean PC games would become a thing of the past or end up being pay as you play.

Ummm...did you read any posts. The argument is way beyond that. It has been acknowledged by everybody that Steam does not stop piracy! Steam is therefore being used for another reason. It seems that profit would be the logical choice. So it appears profit is kicking some consumers in the teeth.

Nobody seems to be able to say why they can't offer these people an alternative? The only reason not to offer an alternative is it may affect this new found profit.

Your post is about 30 pages to late

[Wakers]

But Steam is also easily cracked. Some companies sell their game on Steam and on their own site for digital download without copy protection. They don't go out of business, they have research saying that DRM has little effect on their sales numbers.

[aaron70]

I wont be downloading any emulator/cracked game. I'll carry on my fm11 game. I'll probably reinstall the original champ manager so I can reminisce about how the game was before it sold its soul to sega.

Funny you mentioned that. I dug out my 03/04 game and played last night. Partly because I was fondly reminiscing about the community we had back then. We were CMers It was fun actually. Made me look at FM11 and wonder about the direction of the game as well....lots of bells and whistles but basically the same. The only thing about 03/04 that bugs me is that slow 2D

[Major Raver]

Ummm...did you read any posts. The argument is way beyond that. It has been acknowledged by everybody that Steam does not stop piracy! Steam is therefore being used for another reason. It seems that profit would be the logical choice. So it appears profit is kicking some consumers in the teeth.

Nobody seems to be able to say why they can't offer these people an alternative? The only reason not to offer an alternative is it may affect this new found profit.

Your post is about 30 pages to late

Steam won't stop piracy your right, in truth nothing will, people will always find a way. You say its for profit, well isn't that what SI and Sega meant to be doing? Aren't they allowed to feed themselves. Silly comment in truth. Fact is why are people moaning for, dont get it? We have a new FM game, steam is easy to use and free, the patch downloads will be hassle free, and the game is still near enough the same price as last year! All it is, is people being akward or not happy unless they are moaning about something.

If you want to moan about something, then do so when the game comes out and the AI managers are still useless, and don't use the young players correctly, or buy loads of useless players for no reasons!

[Eugene Tyson]

Ummm...did you read any posts. The argument is way beyond that. It has been acknowledged by everybody that Steam does not stop piracy! Steam is therefore being used for another reason. It seems that profit would be the logical choice. So it appears profit is kicking some consumers in the teeth.

Nobody seems to be able to say why they can't offer these people an alternative? The only reason not to offer an alternative is it may affect this new found profit.

Your post is about 30 pages to late

The only person talking about profit is you.

SI have said no money exchanged hands with Steam. It's about digital rights management.

From the Wiki page relating to Steam

Steam is a is a digital distribution, digital rights management, multiplayer and communications platform. It has minimal digital rights management for software by providing "Custom Executable Generation" for executable files that are unique for each user, but allow that user to install the software on multiple computing devices via Steam or through software backups without limitations. The user is required to have started Steam while connected to the Internet for authentication prior to playing a game, or have previously set up Steam in an "offline" mode while connected online, storing their credentials locally to play without an Internet connection.

What it is is making sure that the person playing the game has authenticated it through Steam.

Nothing more.

[greenone]

Steam won't stop piracy your right, in truth nothing will, people will always find a way. You say its for profit, well isn't that what SI and Sega meant to be doing? Aren't they allowed to feed themselves. Silly comment in truth. Fact is why are people moaning for, dont get it? We have a new FM game, steam is easy to use and free, the patch downloads will be hassle free, and the game is still near enough the same price as last year! All it is, is people being akward or not happy unless they are moaning about something.

If you want to moan about something, then do so when the game comes out and the AI managers are still useless, and don't use the young players correctly, or buy loads of useless players for no reasons!

I suggest you try reading the thread, it has been explained numerous times by numerous people why they aren't happy and why many will be boycotting this release.

[Eugene Tyson]

I suggest you try reading the thread, it has been explained numerous times by numerous people why they aren't happy and why many will be boosting this release.

And a lot of those reasons were completely unfounded.

Only a few people raised what I see as genuine concerns.

[aaron70]

The only person talking about profit is you.

SI have said no money exchanged hands with Steam. It's about digital rights management.

From the Wiki page relating to Steam



What it is is making sure that the person playing the game has authenticated it through Steam.

Nothing more.

The profit will come when they are not even selling a boxed version in the future. This is probably the prelude.

Eugene, you have stated you are a fanboi on another thread, which is fine. So you are obviously going to defend Sega against anything that is being said here. I am a fan of FM. They are making it impossible for some people to play the game and offer no alternative. Why are you and others against them getting an alternative?? Nobody seems to want to answer this. The only answer given was that it would cost them mony (hence the profit argument). In response people than repeat the stop piracy argument, or leave poor old Sega alone. Just makes me scratch my head that people are willing to defend the company and say tough luck to the gamer. It has shown me how people think nowdays.

When things happen that stop you playing a game or make you question a companies motive (which we should always do) we will see different responses here I am sure.

[Kriss]

So suggesting that the companies involved are more interested in making money than their actual customers whilst trying to keep a veneer of caring about their customers is some conspiracy theory.

I think in the world of marketing and consumerism that is hardly a conspiracy theory. Most of us are just disappointed that SI have headed this way. But perhaps we just have to accept that would happen and probably since the split is has become more obvious every year.

Some good points have been raised that if piracy is the reason for this the logic is possibly flawed. Perhaps this has been more about making more money....hardly a conspiracy.
Paradox has been discussed as a company who openly shares its research into the idea and says DRM made no difference to their sales...conspiracy? They have increased sales based on focusing on their customers.

I would rather Sega/SI just openly said....we know this will annoy some of you...but in reality we will make a larger profit long term. Instead they just try to bluff their way through it. Too much like politicians for my liking I guess some of us remember when CM was kicking along and we all felt part of the ride, part of the community, respected, not just the "consumer". Old school perhaps.

The objective of Steam hardly needs to be questioned,get more customers, make more money, and get information that will help them make more money....not much for the conspiracy theory.

aaron, that post was in relation to his views on my integrity, nothing to do with the Steam issue at all

[greenone]

And a lot of those reasons were completely unfounded.

Only a few people raised what I see as genuine concerns.

you may not see them as geniune but you are not the all seeing eye. Few people had any concerns about psn before it was hacked but there were some, they stopped looking foolish pretty quickly.

[milnerpoint]

God is this still going round in the same circles?

SEGA/SI - "this is about piracy"
Irate poster - "no its about profit"
defensive poster - "no its about piracy"
Irate poster 2 - "shut up you dont know what your talking about, before long SI will be watching us through our monitors and will know the colour of our wallpaper, not only that, but they will be sharing this info with every home decorating firm in the UK"

Not quite the theme but close, i honestly thought i was one of the worst for constantly repeating myself over and over but you guys are taking it to the extreme now.

We all now know Paradox are the only games company in the world with any morals and probably going to be the only games company left in the next 5 years because they dont protect their games, everyone else will drive their customers away. We all know that steam ruins your computer whilst stealing your personal information with the view to broadcasting it around the world in various podcasts, But can we all accept this is happening? Maybe try and help people unsure about steam??

[Major Raver]

I suggest you try reading the thread, it has been explained numerous times by numerous people why they aren't happy and why many will be boycotting this release.

I've read enough, saw the same arguments when Civilization moved to Steam, and truth is it has been miles better for it. Still people moan, its this country we are always moaning about something!

[aaron70]

aaron, that post was in relation to his views on my integrity, nothing to do with the Steam issue at all

Sorry Kriss. Read it out of context . Guess I am getting the impression from people that we are acting like crackpots because of asking for an alternative method

[Eugene Tyson]

The profit will come when they are not even selling a boxed version in the future. This is probably the prelude.

Eugene, you have stated you are a fanboi on another thread, which is fine. So you are obviously going to defend Sega against anything that is being said here.

Where did that come from?

I am not defending anyone at all. You're explanations about SI, Sega, Steam collaboration as a profit making scheme between the 3 is deluded.

No money exchanged hands at all. According to SI/Sega.

I am a fan of FM. They are making it impossible for some people to play the game and offer no alternative. Why are you and others against them getting an alternative?? Nobody seems to want to answer this. The only answer given was that it would cost them mony (hence the profit argument). In response people than repeat the stop piracy argument, or leave poor old Sega alone. Just makes me scratch my head that people are willing to defend the company and say tough luck to the gamer. It has shown me how people think nowdays.

When things happen that stop you playing a game or nmake you question a companies motive (which we should always do) we will see different responses here I am sure.

it is not impossible to play the game. You just download Steam and play the game. Couldn't be any simpler.

No there are no alternatives at the moment.

I am not against them getting an alternative. But they have said they have thought about this for nearly 3 years. And this is the best option presented to them.

Now please tell me at what point in the 3 years of discussions and decision making how all of a sudden that after a week they announced that FM is only playable through activation on Steam - that you some how have a new fangled idea that somehow miraculously you have conceived of that the top decision makers in SI Sega and Steam have not conceived of yet?


They're motive? Make money. Sell more games. Protect their industry.

That's the motive. That's the steps they've taken. Like it or lump it.


yeh if you can't use Steam then you're out of luck, you can't play the game. This is actually something SI/Sega/Steam have thought about. I'm sure they came to this conclusion a long time before you did. And I'm sure they sat around mulling it over and thinking about how it affects their game.

And I'm sure they had all the necessary data in front of them to make an informed decision from over 3 years of thinking of a way to secure their software.


You'll find that FM09 only 4% of people activated via Telephone. And the rest by internet.


Yeh a small percentage of people will not be able to play it. But a much larger percentage than before will be able to play it.

[aaron70]

SEGA/SI - "this is about piracy"
Irate poster - "no its about profit"
defensive poster - "no its about piracy"
Irate poster 2 - "shut up you dont know what your talking about, before long SI will be watching us through our monitors and will know the colour of our wallpaper, not only that, but they will be sharing this info with every home decorating firm in the UK"

defensive poster: "Hey I love Sega. Read my other posts..I admit to loving them biasedly.... and screw the game players. Why should Sega care anyway. Yeah,,,screw you all. An alternative...why? I don't need one...other people do...well tough luck...I love Sega....Do whatever you want Sega because baa baa baaa,

Just thought i would expand that for you Milner. Don't try to suggest that the naysayers have been out of order with weak arguments and those for have been convincing.

Why not offer an alternative????

[Major Raver]

God is this still going round in the same circles?

SEGA/SI - "this is about piracy"
Irate poster - "no its about profit"
defensive poster - "no its about piracy"
Irate poster 2 - "shut up you dont know what your talking about, before long SI will be watching us through our monitors and will know the colour of our wallpaper, not only that, but they will be sharing this info with every home decorating firm in the UK"

Not quite the theme but close, i honestly thought i was one of the worst for constantly repeating myself over and over but you guys are taking it to the extreme now.

We all now know Paradox are the only games company in the world with any morals and probably going to be the only games company left in the next 5 years because they dont protect their games, everyone else will drive their customers away. We all know that steam ruins your computer whilst stealing your personal information with the view to broadcasting it around the world in various podcasts, But can we all accept this is happening? Maybe try and help people unsure about steam??

Milner, everyone passes data, your bank, your insurance company, sites you visit, its the world we live in. Even Sony had customers data nicked. No one is driving customers away, most moaning on here will buy and install, customers will be still be here as long as the product is made to a high standard.

God in 5 weeks time the same people will be moaning about SI releasing a faulty product, to many bugs, demanding patches, like there human rights have been abused!

[Keyzer Soze]

And a lot of those reasons were completely unfounded.

Only a few people raised what I see as genuine concerns.

Completely agree with this!

Apart from a small (very small) amount of users that may have problems because the lack of an internet connection. And even this, it's only apply with people with desktops, because if they install the game in an laptop this issue can be solve very easely.

The other issue, could be in terms of patching the game exclusively by steam. This could raise a couple of questions.

All the other issues, and particularly the "3rd party program"... well... i think that its important that a person had a "personnal quest" in their life! A goal... a reason to fight for! But common... Steam!?!?! Why dont you spend all this energy in defending human rights or something like that?

[aaron70]

According to SI/Sega.

There endeth the lesson. I think you just summed it all up.

"Yeh a small percentage of people will not be able to play it. But a much larger percentage than before will be able to play it." - and you accuse others of making up stuff.

Anyway. I give up. It is now only fanbois defending the decision (because only they could at this point) so a logical argument is finished.

See what happens in the future but FM11 will do me for the next few years by the look of it
Happy gaming all

[milnerpoint]

There is no alternative, you have to accept that, steam is the only option, it really is that simple, not one of the post in this 30 page thread will change that, all you guys are doing is going over and over and over and over and over the same points and winding up Kriss.
Why they have not offered anything else is irrelevant, they have not and will not offer anything other than steam this time. Only the sales figures and steam feedback will change anything for FM13.