A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[CaptainPlanet]

No...just somebody who would rather look out for the welfare of gamer who will have a game withheld from them. I really don't care if that was just 1000 people. But as I said...people would rather poor old Sega were not caused any inconvenience. Sign of the times I guess. Even though it means nothing to people here whether Sega give an option, it does mean something to those people who are not...Instead we get sarcastic remarks (vinyl records, Paradox the powerhouse of gaming).......any decent points are just brick walled.....sad. Gamers community???? Nope.

A modern PC gamer without the internet is comparable to someone with a record player hating itunes.

[ronaldo_1978]

A modern PC gamer without the internet is comparable to someone with a record player hating itunes.

Wait I only buy vinyl and hate Itunes ... Tho to be fair you must admit it's a little naughty to discriminate against someone because of their financial status who can't afford internet

[pigfacemonkeyman]

They did the phone system, no one used it. You must have missed Miles post, ill re-post it for a second time

Will you please stop re-posting Miles' post or I will feel it necessary to keep highlighting this:

You've asked how we're letting people know about this. Well, apart from the forum thread, there was a mailshot on Friday to hundreds of thousands of our registered customers to let them know about it, as well as telling them about the blogs and the release date. Since then, pre-orders have gone up massively with our pre-order position at Amazon in the UK (for example) going up from the mid 20's into the top 10, peaking at 5 and currently at 7, which is way higher than we normally are at this time of year. There will also be, front of pack in between the SI logo and the age rating, in big letters, the words "requires internet connection to activate", which was insisted upon by me for us to be able to go ahead with this. I will be chasing SEGA first thing on Monday to ensure that all retailers who have packshots online switch to the final packshot, rather than the one they are currently using.

Thank you.

[heathxxx]

Most of this thread now, just seems to be turning into a load of...

[eddymunster]

Sorry that was an exaggerated point that added nothing to the post!
The rest wasnt directed at you exactly, just the general feel i get from this thread. Stealing is seen as ok and not really worth fighting.

No, stealing is wrong end of. And I'm glad it wasn't entirely aimed at me because I found quite alot of your post fairly offensive. I do however think there are other ways of combating it rather than forcing every FMer to use Steam. And that those that don't want to have a 3rd party program should have another option. Even if it's only an option to remove it after you have finished installing.

[milnerpoint]

Will you please stop re-posting Miles' post or I will feel it necessary to keep highlighting this:



Thank you.

Your point is? Do you know he hasnt spoken to someone at SEGA about it? What has that got to do with activating the game by telephone?

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I'm not even buying FM12, I'm not a Sega or SI or FM fanboy, I just see the justification in their choice. You seem just as stubborn to prove that I'm wrong, does that mean you're a saddo too?

A minimum requirement for being able to play a modern PC computer game. In the same way that I think a band only selling songs digitally and having a device to play their songs is a valid minimum requirement. Or a film release only being on Bluray is a valid minimum requirement.

Why is this guy still here?

[afced7]

Tho to be fair you must admit it's a little naughty to discriminate against someone because of their financial status who can't afford internet

They only need it for about 30 seconds, I'm sure if people put their mind to it there would be SOME solution to their dilemma.

[milnerpoint]

No, stealing is wrong end of. And I'm glad it wasn't entirely aimed at me because I found quite alot of your post fairly offensive. I do however think there are other ways of combating it rather than forcing every FMer to use Steam. And that those that don't want to have a 3rd party program should have another option. Even if it's only an option to remove it after you have finished installing.

I did not mean to offend you at all, sorry if it came across that way, my internet mannerisms are not always the best!
Heath is right tho, ill leave it here, i have said MORE than my fair share on this topic. Happy steaming everyone!!

[eddymunster]

They did the phone system, no one used it. You must have missed Miles post, ill re-post it for a second time

I did use it actually. Well I tried, it was massively understaffed, constantly engaged and inundated with people phoning with complaints because the online was down for whatever reason.

This may have also skewed the 4% of people who used the phone activation. If there was more availability how does anyone know that stat would not have been much higher?

[aaron70]

A modern PC gamer without the internet is comparable to someone with a record player hating itunes.

In your world perhaps. My mate's grandfather doesn't have Internet but plays football manager at 80 years of age. Tough luck pops. I am sure we will work out some way to activate him but there will be others not so fortunate. As I said I don't care if it it 1000 people affected, why shouldn't Sega try to help them out....Because it appears not the consumers are dancing to the companies tune.

Again I ask, Would it ruin your day if the company attempted to help all customers? Why are you against them getting assistance?

[ronaldo_1978]

They only need it for about 30 seconds, I'm sure if people put their mind to it there would be SOME solution to their dilemma.

I understand that but you still need it at your own house if you own a desktop pc

[afced7]

In your world perhaps. My mate's grandfather doesn't have Internet but plays football manager at 80 years of age. Tough luck pops. I am sure we will work out some way to activate him but there will be others not so fortunate. As I said I don't care if it it 1000 people affected, why shouldn't Sega try to help them out....Because it appears not the consumers are dancing to the companies tune.

Again I ask, Would it ruin your day if the company attempted to help all customers? Why are you against them getting assistance?

People aren't against it I don't think, but SI/SEGA have already made their position clear, and complaining about it here isn't going to change anything. Yes it would be nice if everybody could play FM, but SI/SEGA have made a justifiable, sensible, business decision which I agree with.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Your point is? Do you know he hasnt spoken to someone at SEGA about it? What has that got to do with activating the game by telephone?

What I know is this. http://www.sega.co.uk/retailers/?g=7344

EDIT: No mention of needing internet and steam to activate FM12.

[eddymunster]

I understand that but you still need it at your own house if you own a desktop pc

I have the answer, all you need is;

1. Your PC
2. A car/pushbike with trailer
3. A wheel barrow
4. A diesel generator
5. A wireless dongle.

Where there's a will there's a way.

[greenone]

They did the phone system, no one used it. You must have missed Miles post, ill re-post it for a second time

Nearly 1 in 20 used it, assuming minimum sales of 500 000 units, that's 20,000 people used it or £600 000 quids worth of sales assuming £30 a game.

As the saying goes look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.

[Barside]

Most of this thread now, just seems to be turning into a load of...

I believe you are correct, after 3 working days I don't think there is anything new that can be said & the personal insults appear to be on the increase.

Surely it's time to close this one until SI have an update the few unanswered questions that remain.

[greenone]

A modern PC gamer without the internet is comparable to someone with a record player hating itunes.

Itunes is crap that's why. Music isn't digital it's analogue.

[Wakers]

A modern PC gamer without the internet is comparable to someone with a record player hating itunes.

Alot of people today who have record players are audiophiles, who would likely hate itunes anyway

Try again

[vrisk85]

Who cares if there's 1000's of games? Don't steal them.

If anti-piracy wasn't working then they wouldn't bother with it. But they seem to be bothered with doing it because they know it works.

All it does is cause minor inconvenience to those that actually "crack" the game, those who download it are not affected by anything.
It might slow them down, but virtually every game that that was released has been cracked/pirated.

[Kriss]

Still going round in circles folks? okay I'll pop back later, you never know....................

[ronaldo_1978]

Surely tho someone that downloads FM Illegally will just not bother downloading it if it's more difficult to do so? They won't then go out and buy the original game, There's no chance they are long term FM fans and probably never bought a original copy of any previous releases

[data6930]

if they are "loyal" and "die Hard", then surely they just buy the game anyway?

I have been a fan of the game for many years and a member of these forums for 8 years, I won't be buying the game due to SI opting for using steam only, I think it is a terrible decision to choose this option, it leaves a lot of people annoyed because SI use to listen and take on board comments made by people, both positive and negative now they can't be bothered interacting with this very hot topic.

Turning to the question of this method will cut down piracy, utter bo**ocks, if anything it will drive people to piracy, furthermore, if this goes t*ts up they will lose even more customers next year. A big gamble in my eyes.

[data6930]

What I know is this. http://www.sega.co.uk/retailers/?g=7344

EDIT: No mention of needing internet and steam to activate FM12.

Seems Sega can't be bothered mentioning the steam activation on their shop, now that is out of order and a disgrace, mentioned earlier that there is no mention of Steam activation/internet required on the pre-order pages on Amazon or Play, it would seem Sega/SI are doing there best to hide this fact probably to ensure good sales.

[Denmark 1966]

Still going round in circles folks? okay I'll pop back later, you never know....................

Since when has it ever done anything good to talk down to people... Who made you god in here?

[themadsheep2001]

I believe you are correct, after 3 working days I don't think there is anything new that can be said & the personal insults appear to be on the increase.

Surely it's time to close this one until SI have an update the few unanswered questions that remain.

+1 its not really achieving much

[afced7]

Seems Sega can't be bothered mentioning the steam activation on their shop, now that is out of order and a disgrace, mentioned earlier that there is no mention of Steam activation/internet required on the pre-order pages on Amazon or Play, it would seem Sega/SI are doing there best to hide this fact probably to ensure good sales.

Ignoring the fact that people already have internet access if they are viewing any of those websites of course.

[data6930]

I would say Sega/SI have an obligation to state clearly on their own websites (Sega Shop) and other sites such as Amazon & Play that you are required to activate through the steam platform as it stands they are misleading customers.

Sega/SI are in for a lot of grief if they continue to market the product on these large retail websites without properly stating these facts.

[jptykes]

Ignoring the fact that people already have internet access if they are viewing any of those websites of course.

But not necessarily at home or on the computer which will be used for playing FM.

I can access Amazon and Play on my Android phone, but the last time I checked it wasn't able to play FM.

[greenone]

Ignoring the fact that people already have internet access if they are viewing any of those websites of course.

And? I have the ability to authenticate the game, but I won't because I do not agree with Steam taking data off my computer. I had a battle with Tesco when Empire Total War came out as I didn't realise that was steam required until I had opened the game. They would not give me a refund until I got trading standards involved.

[afced7]

But not necessarily at home or on the computer which will be used for playing FM.

I can access Amazon and Play on my Android phone, but the last time I checked it wasn't able to play FM.

I wonder how many people have an up to date phone like an Android but no internet connection or any access at all to the internet on a computer.

[afced7]

And? I have the ability to authenticate the game, but I won't because I do not agree with Steam taking data off my computer. I had a battle with Tesco when Empire Total War came out as I didn't realise that was steam required until I had opened the game. They would not give me a refund until I got trading standards involved.

Go and put your tin foil hat back on.

[greenone]

Go put your tin foil hat back on.

Tin foil hat? I take you have never been a victim of ID fraud. You become a lot more careful when you have been.

[looknohands]

Ignoring the fact that people already have internet access if they are viewing any of those websites of course.

...and ignoring the fact that there are public places that provide free internet access for those that don't have home internet access, you mean?

[afced7]

Tin foil hat? I take you have never been a victim of ID fraud.

Get the details from steam did they? Somebody managed to impersonate you because they knew the specs of your computer?

[SazoJohnno]

28 pages and we are still on about this. :/

[afced7]

...and ignoring the fact that there are public places that provide free internet access for those that don't have home internet access, you mean?

Yes ignoring that considering you need about 30 seconds worth of internet to be able to play the game for the rest of time.

[greenone]

Get the details from steam did they? Somebody managed to impersonate you because they knew the specs of your computer?

First line of Valve privacy statement:
By using Valve's online sites and products, users agree that Valve may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information....

[Denmark 1966]

Yes ignoring that considering you need about 30 seconds worth of internet to be able to play the game for the rest of time.

So I can go to an internet café, activate the game with steam. Go home to my own PC and play the game?
If this is so, I see no problem. Leave the trash at the café ;-)

[The Welsh Lad]

Since when has it ever done anything good to talk down to people... Who made you god in here?

No body made him god, but he is a mod. The statment he made was in line with the thread that nothing new is being said and it just getting repetitive. There is nearl 3000 posts, everything for and against in this debate has been said nothing else will chage the fact this is happening. And personal insults are starting to increase, this will just end in a slagging match between one or two highly opinionated people.

[Kriss]

Any more insults and it will close, it's gone past silly now.

[Loversleaper]

Originally Posted by David - SEGA

Each year we give you an update on the status of copy protection and activation of Football Manager and the decisions taken as we know it’s a hot topic for many of you, although for many others it’s not really an issue at all.

As you may remember, last year we decided against any activation as we couldn't find a solution that we thought struck a balance on combatting piracy and not penalising the genuine consumer. We did make our position on anti-piracy pretty clear though, we see it as a big problem for our game and we said we'd continue to look for a solution that stopped, or made it very difficult to pirate the game and play it for free.

This year we have found what we believe is an acceptable solution. Any version of Football Manager 2012 bought on disc will have to be activated through the Steam network, so therefore purchasers will have to have an internet connection for initial activation. This is a one-time only activation which requires you to sign up for a Steam account (which is free) and to install the Steam client and once it has been done the game can be played offline by turning on Steam's Offline mode. With those two simple steps done there are no more hoops to jump through or steps to take.

We appreciate that the vast majority of people reading this post on the forums are genuine consumers of the game, and that having to activate is not as simple as putting the game in the drive and playing. However we hope that, as a fan of the game, you feel that having to do a one-time activation is worth it to try to prevent others playing the game for free and stealing what you purchase with no punishment, and with no contribution toward the future of Football Manager and it's development. Make no mistake, if a quarter of the people that usually pirate the game switch to purchasing Football Manager 2012, the sales of the game worldwide would more than double. This would lead to increased development budgets and more benefits for all of you who do buy the game.

We've taken this decision because we believe that the steps the consumer has to take are not excessive, and that as a one-time only measure with no tracking or reporting it is not too intrusive. Having worked with Steam for a few years now we also believe that their system is ever improving and gives Football Manager players a good service of free auto-updating, achievements and other great benefits without cost or hassle.

We hope you understand and support the decision. It's by no means taken lightly, although I hope for the vast majority of you it's nowhere near as big an issue as we treat it as being.

In summary:
• You need to connect to the internet to activate Football Manager 2012 on PC and Mac before you start playing it
• To activate you will need to sign up to, and install the Steam client
• Once you have activated Football Manager 2012 you can then play it in Steam's "offline mode" - meaning you do not have to be connected to the internet to play
• Saved games are stored locally on your machine, but you can play Football Manager on any machine by signing into Steam and selecting it from your purchased games
• Staying connected to Steam will mean Football Manager 2012 is automatically updated with any patches or data updates released

The whole piracy aspect is not feasible in the long run. Most of those places that use pirated versions of games are usually in places where people simply can't afford to pay the full price of games, so what is the logic behind this statement from SEGA? Do they seriously think that these people are going to purchase it now with this whole Steam issue...?

[edwingray]

First line of Valve privacy statement:
By using Valve's online sites and products, users agree that Valve may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information....

To be fair, if you read the whole statement they also say that they don't pass it on to anyone.

Still, I've read enough about Steam to make a balanced decision not to use the software and therefore not to play FM 2012 (which is a shame). I will though wait for the initial reports after release day. Hopefully for SI's sake it won't be a total balls up, but I have my doubts.

[milnerpoint]

Any more insults and it will close, it's gone past silly now.

who made you god around here??

[Kriss]

Somebody posted some links earlier to various discussions and interviews on piracy, it's worth looking at in depth to realise what are the critical factors for the game distributors/developers and why there are certain actions they can take which will drastically reduce the impact on their bottom line, without ever pretending they can prevent piracy.

[Kriss]

who made you god around here??

Errr check out what happened to the last person to ask that

[The Welsh Lad]

The whole piracy aspect is not feasible in the long run. Most of those places that use pirated versions of games are usually in places where people simply can't afford to pay the full price of games, so what is the logic behind this statement from SEGA? Do they seriously think that these people are going to purchase it now with this whole Steam issue...?

The reasoning behind it is... to target the ones that love the game, but have been getting pirated copies, but would pay for the game if they couldn't get a pirated copy. If this makes it harder for some to pirate the game (makes it longer to become available) then those people may decided to buy the game. That is what it mainly boils down to.

[milnerpoint]

if i compare you banning him to buying a car will you forgive me??

[eddymunster]

Errr check out what happened to the last person to ask that

Wow, 5 posts. That went well.

[afced7]

So I can go to an internet café, activate the game with steam. Go home to my own PC and play the game?
If this is so, I see no problem. Leave the trash at the café ;-)

I don't know, I don't use internet cafe's since I have an internet connection but you can sign up to steam in the cafe, then you could possibly download it onto a usb drive? Not really sure if that's possible, or maybe steam will be included on the disc? Again no idea if that's possible, as I said I have an internet connection so I haven't had to do anything like this before.

Or you could just buy a wireless dongle and if you live in the UK you're almost guaranteed to have the possibility to connect to the internet. http://btopenzone.hotspot-directory.com/ (I've already had a discussion about 'but not everybody lives in the UK,' yes I know but I do and I know the situation here, look for a similar service in other countries if you're that bothered)

EDIT: Damn my reply took ages to write, now he's banned

[greenone]

To be fair, if you read the whole statement they also say that they don't pass it on to anyone.

Still, I've read enough about Steam to make a balanced decision not to use the software and therefore not to play FM 2012 (which is a shame). I will though wait for the initial reports after release day. Hopefully for SI's sake it won't be a total balls up, but I have my doubts.

So did PSN and look what happened there.

[Kriss]

Wow, 5 posts. That went well.

It wasn't anything he said, I've had far worse from people who like me the points tally tells the story.

[greenone]

Or you could just buy a wireless dongle and if you live in the UK you're almost guaranteed to have the possibility to connect to the internet. http://btopenzone.hotspot-directory.com/ (I've already had a discussion about 'but not everybody lives in the UK, yes I know but I do and I know the situation here, look for a similar service in other countries if you're that bothered)

Really? I suggest you go on to that map and go look at some rural areas of the UK. I know of at least 5 people off the top of my head who's only option if they want broadband is satellite as they are too far away from the exchange.

[The Welsh Lad]

First line of Valve privacy statement:
By using Valve's online sites and products, users agree that Valve may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information....

Windows takes personally identifiable information the majority of things concerned with computers takes information, if your that worried about it just use a console, and not a pc. Everytime you turn on your tv information is taken how else would they know what your watching. Your bank takes details of your spending habbits i.e. if your missing bills regularly they will send you letters about saving accounts. All this stuff is fine even thought you never realised you signed upto it, when you got your tv licence, when you opened your bank account. Personal identifiable information is taken, in case you forget your password or username so they can identify who you are.

[milnerpoint]

It wasn't anything he said, I've had far worse from people who like me the points tally tells the story.

i wonder who it was, Laz maybe?? LOL

[afced7]

Really? I suggest you go on to that map and go look at some rural areas of the UK. I know of at least 5 people off the top of my head who's only option if they want broadband is satellite as they are too far away from the exchange.

Hence why I said 'almost guaranteed'. The massive majority of people live in areas which have coverage. Jeez learn to read posts before you reply.

[greenone]

Windows takes personally identifiable information the majority of this conserned with computers takes information, if your that worried about it just use a console, and not a pc. Everytime you turn on your tv information is taken how else would they know what your watching. Your bank takes details of your spending habbits i.e. if your missing bills regularly they will send you letters about saving accounts. All this stuff is fine even thought you never realised you signed upto it, when you got your tv licence, when you opened your bank account. Personal identifiable information is taken, in case you forget your password or username so they can identify who you are.

And the data taken for your TV licence, Bank account etc, is stored in this country where we have pretty robust data protection laws unlike the US where Valve store theirs.

[milnerpoint]

And the data taken for your TV licence, Bank account etc, is stored in this country where we have pretty robust data protection laws unlike the US where Valve store theirs.

Can i ask one quick thing, i said i would leave this but, if you are bothered why dont you sign up for a free hotmail account, put in false info, and buy the game on disk, where is the danger then? Steam will know nothing about you or have access to any of your privy info.

[The Welsh Lad]

I don't know, I don't use internet cafe's since I have an internet connection but you can sign up to steam in the cafe, then you could possibly download it onto a usb drive? Not really sure if that's possible, or maybe steam will be included on the disc? Again no idea if that's possible, as I said I have an internet connection so I haven't had to do anything like this before.

Or you could just buy a wireless dongle and if you live in the UK you're almost guaranteed to have the possibility to connect to the internet. http://btopenzone.hotspot-directory.com/ (I've already had a discussion about 'but not everybody lives in the UK,' yes I know but I do and I know the situation here, look for a similar service in other countries if you're that bothered)

EDIT: Damn my reply took ages to write, now he's banned

I don't think it would be a problem download to a usb stick, unless steam is linked to an ip address.

[milnerpoint]

nah you will have to have the computer playing FM connected to the net at some point, i would hope FM will come with the steam client on the disk, and from there you have to install and then activate the game online, this can only be done by using the computer FM is on, from there technically speaking you should not need the net again until you want to update, just make sure and follow the instructions on the steam FAQ.

[greenone]

Hence why I said 'almost guaranteed'. The massive majority of people live in areas which have coverage. Jeez learn to read posts before you reply.

Try looking at this map Notspots

[afced7]

Well what an eye-opener. I guess BT are just intentionally lying to everybody. The only place I've ever been and not been able to get any signal at all is on the motorway.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

To be fair, if you read the whole statement they also say that they don't pass it on to anyone.

Still, I've read enough about Steam to make a balanced decision not to use the software and therefore not to play FM 2012 (which is a shame). I will though wait for the initial reports after release day. Hopefully for SI's sake it won't be a total balls up, but I have my doubts.

That's not the impression I get: http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html

[Loversleaper]

Well what an eye-opener. I guess BT are just intentionally lying to everybody. The only place I've ever been and not been able to get any signal at all is on the motorway.

Then don't look at the situations in other countries because you might get glaucoma...

[afced7]

Then don't look at the situations in other countries because you might get glaucoma...

Look I've already explained about other countries, I have no idea about the whole situation anywhere else, I live in the UK and don't have the need to connect to Estonian broadband or whatever. I highly doubt I will go blind no matter what the situation is anywhere else.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Any more insults and it will close, it's gone past silly now.

It went past silly with the opening post announcement!

[Loversleaper]

Look I've already explained about other countries, I have no idea about the whole situation anywhere else, I live in the UK and don't have the need to connect to Estonian broadband or whatever.

But still, you're whole arguement is that since it doesn't effect you then you don't see the problem...

[The Welsh Lad]

That's not the impression I get: http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html

I downloaded steam and created an account, they have my email address which is registered to a different name, and they know I live in south glamorgan in wales in the uk, haven't given them my name or house number so what information can they use from that.

They can only use the information that you supply them with.

[afced7]

But still, you're whole arguement is that since it doesn't effect you then you don't see the problem...

Actually I'm trying to come up with solutions for people who have access to things I'm relatively familiar with, i.e. internet cafe's, BT Openzone. I don't see you doing much except crying about people's lives being over because they can't play a computer game. The long and short of it is that this is happening, get used to it. Also I'd like to point out I'm not a whole argument.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I downloaded steam and created an account, they have my email address which is registered to a different name, and they know I live in south glamorgan in wales in the uk, haven't given them my name or house number so what information can they use from that.

They can only use the information that you supply them with.

According to Milnerpoint, steam collects info whilst running in offline mode, then sends it when set to online mode, which you will have to do in order to patch your game. How will you know what info they have collected from this method?

[Loversleaper]

Actually I'm trying to come up with solutions for people who have access to things I'm relatively familiar with. The long and short of it is that this is happening, get used to it. Also I'd like to point out I'm not a whole argument.

I haven't seen any evidence that you are comming up with solutions and even trying to, especially with the "this is happening, get used to it"...

I can get used to it, I am blessed with all the things that make it possible for me to play the game. I just have difficulties swallowing this whole piracy aspect, let's face it, most of the people that acquire pirated copies of games, music and movies are from places where the average income is 50-60 euros a month. Now to expect these people to use a tenth of their yearly income on a single game is just 'out to lunch'...

[The Welsh Lad]

That would be playing habit, and computer spec, you think that it searches your computer for all personal information.

[milnerpoint]

According to Milnerpoint, steam collects info whilst running in offline mode, then sends it when set to online mode, which you will have to do in order to patch your game. How will you know what info they have collected from this method?

yes but its not going through you computer looking for passwords and log in details, it will gather info on your gaming habbits, system info and prob not a lot else.

[themadsheep2001]

That would be playing habit, and computer spec, you think that it searches your computer for all personal information.

yep, this is the kind of stuff it collects http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

[Kriss]

yep, this is the kind of stuff it collects http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

Participation in the survey is optional, and anonymous

[Kriss]

According to Milnerpoint, steam collects info whilst running in offline mode, then sends it when set to online mode, which you will have to do in order to patch your game. How will you know what info they have collected from this method?

Participation in the survey is optional, and anonymous

[themadsheep2001]

Participation in the survey is optional, and anonymous

Exactly, hardly sinister data mining.

[Loversleaper]

I don't see you doing much except crying about people's lives being over because they can't play a computer game.

Hey listen kid, why did you have to throw something like this? When have I been crying about anything or mention people's lives are over? This tends to be the last wall of defense, which doesn't really make you look like an adult...

Keep things civil and refrain from projecting untrue images on fellow gamers.

Thanks

[The Welsh Lad]

I haven't seen any evidence that you are comming up with solutions and even trying to, especially with the "this is happening, get used to it"...

I can get used to it, I am blessed with all the things that make it possible for me to play the game. I just have difficulties swallowing this whole piracy aspect, let's face it, most of the people that acquire pirated copies of games, music and movies are from places where the average income is 50-60 euros a month. Now to expect these people to use a tenth of their yearly income on a single game is just 'out to lunch'...

Thats a bit far fetch to say the least. That is roughly £40, so they can afford food, electircity, cloths and a computer but internet is to much. Think they need to re-work their priorities, I would be wanting to use has little electric has possible to make sure I can get more food, so they would be no computer to start with. Need to re-work on the example, I'm affraid.

[Loversleaper]

Thats a bit far fetch to say the least. That is roughly £40, so they can afford food, electircity, cloths and a computer but internet is to much. Think they need to re-work their priorities, I would be wanting to use has little electric has possible to make sure I can get more food, so they would be no computer to start with. Need to re-work on the example, I'm affraid.

So, I ask you : what is the average income in Thailand?...

[Kriss]

As somebody said of Sega/SI earlier if you're going to quote figures, make sure they're correct.

[afced7]

I haven't seen any evidence that you are comming up with solutions and even trying to

Clearly you've missed most of the thread.

Hey listen kid, why did you have to throw something like this? When have I been crying about anything or mention people's lives are over? This tends to be the last wall of defense, which doesn't really make you look like an adult...

Keep things civil and refrain from projecting untrue images on fellow gamers.

Thanks

How about you follow your own advice there sonny, your point seems far more like a last line of defence than mine squirt

[Kriss]

Stop with the handbags please, or there'll be no discussion.

[afced7]

Stop with the handbags please, or there'll be no discussion.

Why is there one anyway? People will need to use steam and have internet access to play the game. What more is there to this thread?

[Loversleaper]

Clearly you've missed most of the thread.



How about you follow your own advice there sonny, your point seems far more like a last line of defence than mine squirt

Someone shot down your remarks on internet connection so you are a little tied up, whoop-ti-doo. No need to vent your frustrations on me. "Squirt" is that the best you can come up with? ...

[afced7]

Someone shot down your remarks on internet connection so you are a little tied up, whoop-ti-doo. No need to vent your frustrations on me. "Squirt" is that the best you can come up with? ...

Hmm actually I don't think they did. I'm not nearly as tied up as you seem to be. Clearly not, why? Is kid the best you could come up with?

[FrazT]

The Mods have tried very hard to keep this thread open for reasonable discussion of this issue. As Kriss has said, if if cant be kept civil, without the personal sniping, then infractions will follow, so have a think before posting again

[The Welsh Lad]

So, I ask you : what is the average income in Thailand?...

Whilst obivously there are going to people who are on less than the average the average is 132,880.00 Thai Baht which is 2,781.52 pounds sterling.

Thai Minimum wage varies from province to provice with Bangkok and Samut Prakan on the highest (£4.32) and Payao, Pichit, Prae and Mae Hong Son on the lowest (£3.17)

EDIT: Should add that these figures are from 2010

RE-EDIT: I know average wages should be taken with a pinch of salt because in the UK its about £30,000 i think and I don't know many on near that. and also this is the last on the subject otherwise it will go off topic.

[Loversleaper]

Make no mistake, if a quarter of the people that usually pirate the game switch to purchasing Football Manager 2012, the sales of the game worldwide would more than double. This would lead to increased development budgets and more benefits for all of you who do buy the game.

@Welsh lad

You see this is what I was referring to, not if the people in poor countries have their priorities straight regarding internet connections - so you missed the point (but I may have not been totally clear).

Statistically SEGA could be correct, but there is another side to the story. These large numbers they are talking about doesn't give the whole picture because if this was only going on in the "west" then I could see the point, but we are talking about a global perspective. Globally most piracy occurs in countries where people are generally very poor compared to our standards, they can't afford to purchase the game as we can. So, to think that forcing us to use Steam will magically make these people all of a sudden change their minds to dish out large ammounts (for them) for a computer game is what is really far fetched. These numbers being thrown up doesn't coincide with reality...

[The Welsh Lad]

@Loversleaper

Obviously this decision is going to make some people not be able to play the game, they understand that. They understand that its going to cost people a bit more money i.e. getting internet put in. The reason for this is whilst in an ideal world is to stop the person that cracks the game, because we are not in an ideal world this looks at making the people that download a cracked game from doing so because patches (I think and should) will only be available through Steam, and if you haven't got a register game through Steam (not bought) you wont be able to download patches (I know that these will most probably find a way to be cracked aswell) but you should be able to see why they have taken it down this route.

It may end up being the wrong decision, it may end up being the right decision. We wont know until the game is released.

The problem is people say like the qoute you put, everyone that does not buy the game comes under the pirate bracket, thats why people say you wont stop pirates because they are hell bent on breaking the law, the same has hackers because they like a challenge. They well I hope will be stopped, its the ones that download it they want to stop.

My first ever Managerment game (cant remember the name it was like playing a board game and had the player death square in the corner, land on it and a player died), I had to save for out of my weekly pocket money. I can sympathise with people who struggle to afford lifes luxuries. But because I cant afford a buggehti doesnt mean I should illegaly obtain one. I have never owned a top brand pair of trainers all mine come from Shoe Zone for £10. I've had to save up for FM12, sorry for those who can't afford to save but still doesn't give them the right to steal. Everyone was up in arms because of the riots, some of the looters were saying they did it because other people have the stuff why cant they (Is that right, because you got it I haven't therefore I must steal it).

If companies didn't want to protect its products there would be no shop shutters, no car alarms etc. I understand some peoples have the right to come on here and fight for the ones that havent got interent but unfortunatly unless this decision goes belly up on release day nothing can be done.


EDIT: Sorry for the car analogy Kriss

[Loversleaper]

@Loversleaper

Obviously this decision is going to make some people not be able to play the game, they understand that. They understand that its going to cost people a bit more money i.e. getting internet put in. The reason for this is whilst in an ideal world is to stop the person that cracks the game, because we are not in an ideal world this looks at making the people that download a cracked game from doing so because patches (I think and should) will only be available through Steam, and if you haven't got a register game through Steam (not bought) you wont be able to download patches (I know that these will most probably find a way to be cracked aswell) but you should be able to see why they have taken it down this route.

It may end up being the wrong decision, it may end up being the right decision. We wont know until the game is released.

The problem is people say like the qoute you put, everyone that does not buy the game comes under the pirate bracket, thats why people say you wont stop pirates because they are hell bent on breaking the law, the same has hackers because they like a challenge. They well I hope will be stopped, its the ones that download it they want to stop.

My first ever Managerment game (cant remember the name it was like playing a board game and had the player death square in the corner, land on it and a player died), I had to save for out of my weekly pocket money. I can sympathise with people who struggle to afford lifes luxuries. But because I cant afford a buggehti doesnt mean I should illegaly obtain one. I have never owned a top brand pair of trainers all mine come from Shoe Zone for £10. I've had to save up for FM12, sorry for those who can't afford to save but still doesn't give them the right to steal. Everyone was up in arms because of the riots, some of the looters were saying they did it because other people have the stuff why cant they (Is that right, because you got it I haven't therefore I must steal it).

If companies didn't want to protect its products there would be no shop shutters, no car alarms etc. I understand some peoples have the right to come on here and fight for the ones that havent got interent but unfortunatly unless this decision goes belly up on release day nothing can be done.


EDIT: Sorry for the car analogy Kriss

I think if you look at how many people in the "west" actually download pirated copies compared to how many that don't have internet connections then I don't think SEGA are going to make record sales. Once again, the wrong people are getting blamed...

Just because people are looting in London it doesn't mean that we have to have a curfew in Amsterdam...

[Lord Rowell]

Great post Lord Rodwell, unfortunately that won't change anything.

we use words like "loyalty", we like to think of Miles Jacobson and people at SI like they're our personal friends, we have been keen to support them through the years not only buying their games but also giving feedback and spending time (which is even more valuable than money) to help them in various ways.

but at the end of the day Miles Jacobson and SI people are business men. I'm pretty sure their deal with steam is a marvellous piece of business for them, so can't really blame them. Unfortunately this means some of us (including lots of old customers) won't buy FM12. If I think about it rationally, it's actually unsurprising that mr Jacobson and SI don't care that much about this. Why should they?

Shame on me for feeling disappointed.

It's Lord "Rowell" but thank for the compliment.

Yes, you're right, Miles Jacobsen's clear first priority is to SI and SEGA, not to the FM Community. I'd be more comfortable with that if he didn't pretend to be one of the fans, but I think he does do that so he is disingenuous.

Great post, very well written and I very much agree with what you have said.

Just give this a bump, hopefully it will be noticed and responded to, though I doubt it very much.

Not much use bumping it as the forum here doesn't support quotes within quotes, so anyone bumping my post will see my responses that were addressed to specific comments written by Miles, except they won't see the comments written by Miles unless they trawl back through the thread. But, if Miles was serious when he said he'd keep reading this thread, then he'll have seen what I've written and that is the most important thing, to me.

I will say in reply to this statement that I do not believe for a second that anyone who provides content for FM in the community will be dodging FM while it is a requirement to activate by Steam. I will still be releasing content where possible and helping others with producing their content where it comes to using the Advanced Rules to create competitions (should this still be possible).

Those who release content for FM absolutely love the game, the need to activate the game via Steam is not going to stop them.

If you wish to continue to release content, fine and enjoy doing so, I respect your position, seriously .

But, I simply don't agree with your wider view on this. You're right, the people who release content, provide data on players etc. clearly love the game and why wouldn't they? After all, its always been a game to a large degree made by the fans and SI have recognised that. Until now. As per my response to Miles, I think they are endangering that relationship now. They can't rely on unconditional love for the game.

I can't help but notice that, among the people here who disagree with SI's initiative re. Steam activation, there seems to be a lot of knowledge about games, piracy, technology etc. - far far more than I possess. There are some very well informed, capable, and respected members of the community who are at odds with SI here. I'd put other content providers into that group as well and I suspect that certainly some are having doubts now about whether they want to continue to provide content or directly help SI. I really think SI has taken its community for granted.

[The Welsh Lad]

I think if you look at how many people in the "west" actually download pirated copies compared to how many that don't have internet connections then I don't think SEGA are going to make record sales. Once again, the wrong people are getting blamed...

Just because people are looting in London it doesn't mean that we have to have a curfew in Amsterdam...

What has people having a cerfew go to do with a kettle of fish.

Pirates are getting blamed becuase they have internet connection and because they are pirates hell bent on breaking the law, breaking the law is breaking the law. If you don't have the internet you cant download craked games. You can buy copied CDs which is illegal aswell so still breaking the law.

People who buy the game and dont have/can't get access to the internet are not getting blamed for anything, they are just an unfourtunate section of people that has a result of can't play FM12.

But, to ignore parts of the post that explains why SI and SEGA have made this decision and make your own conlusion that people without internet, people who cant afford it etc. are being blamed or victimised is obsured. To be frankly honest.

[Jibby123]

Do the piraters send back their sales figures to Sega/SI??

How does anyone know the lost revenue (to the game publishers) from piraters??

Genuine question....I'm just intrigued.

It's in a game publisher's interest to play the line "if we inconvienience you....it will help us make a better game for you".

Marketing suits....

[The Welsh Lad]

@ Lord Rowell

Yes, you're right, Miles Jacobsen's clear first priority is to SI and SEGA, not to the FM Community. I'd be more comfortable with that if he didn't pretend to be one of the fans, but I think he does do that so he is disingenuous

Miles is a fan of the game and a fan of football. Thats why he like many fans of the game want to protect the longevity of the game now, not when it is to late.

But, I simply don't agree with your wider view on this. You're right, the people who release content, provide data on players etc. clearly love the game and why wouldn't they? After all, its always been a game to a large degree made by the fans and SI have recognised that. Until now. As per my response to Miles, I think they are endangering that relationship now. They can't rely on unconditional love for the game.

In the same way, we cant expect the game to be around forever without some sort of protection against pirates (even if it doesn't make much of fence)

[jags4ever]

If you know where to look you can find stats on FM2011 illegal downloads , SEGA and SI will have those stats and it numbers well into the hundreds of thousands from the sites I can find and that doesnt include numerous private trackers where unless you know how to access the site you will never find out. And no im not gonna tell you the sites , I check these things as part of my job so I know what im looking for

Steam isnt a burden on any system purchased in the last 3 years IMO , running a browser is more intensive than anything running in the background - hell set it to low priority and it will chow through nothing while FM is running.

How many sales will SI lose over the activation ? A few but not that many IMO , how many will it gain ? Probably more than it will lose , and TBH if the game is any way decent it will sell very well indeed. I dont think losses by SEGA will have an input into using Steam, that is the premier download system and if you take a step back it could be a lot worse SI could be partnered with EA and be forced to use Origin which is the worst POS ive ever seen in my life

[Lord Rowell]

@ Lord Rowell



Miles is a fan of the game and a fan of football. Thats why he like many fans of the game want to protect the longevity of the game now, not when it is to late.



In the same way, we cant expect the game to be around forever without some sort of protection against pirates (even if it doesn't make much of fence)

I understand your points, The Welsh Lad, but respectfully disagree with your conclusion. I think Miles' approach shows inconsistency with "being a fan" and "protecting longevity" because IMO he's damaging the most important part of what gives this game longevity, the core community who help to build this game.

You are dead right, we can't expect the game not to have protection and nowhere have I suggested otherwise. I'm not a techy expert on these things but, as aforementioned, a lot of people here who do seem to know their stuff think this measure won't help much at all in stopping a cracked copy. I do know enough about the wider context, that stopping a pirate won't make them make a purchase, I've seen enough data on a variety of media to draw that conclusion and this is an area I DO know how to interpret with my economics background.

I think that people could have been presented with alternative options. For example a. Use Steam or b. if you can't / don't want to, keep the disk in your drive. Even if that or other options weren't viable, I'm not convinced this was the right measure. All it will do it annoy people and may well end up creating more piracy.

IMO this whole thing has been badly handled without due consideration to the community. I'd be pretty confident some serious discussions are taking place behind closed doors now. SI were launching FM12 via the blogs and podcasts, here, yet this thread is still the dominant topic. Despite suggestions last night that it was dying, another 5 pages today and getting on for 30 in total now. PR disaster.

[Wakers]

Just an idea:

To stop the inevitable flooding of the forums when the activation servers for Steam get clogged up, SI should really ask if there isn't some sort of grace period can't be added to the activation, i.e. you can play the game for 7 days before activating.

[Jibby123]

If you know where to look you can find stats on FM2011 illegal downloads , SEGA and SI will have those stats and it numbers well into the hundreds of thousands from the sites I can find and that doesnt include numerous private trackers where unless you know how to access the site you will never find out. And no im not gonna tell you the sites , I check these things as part of my job so I know what im looking for ....

Fair one, but it's surely impossible to say how many of those who nicked it for free would have bought the game legit. So in terms of lost revenue, it's impossible to say, no?

This insinuation that this online activation crap is for our (genuine, paying fans year in year out) benefit; i.e. a better game in the future is dressed up way of saying it's purely about profit for them and nothing wrong with that; private companies are about them making profit. Dressing it up as some sort benefit our way is wooly.

As the record companies will never admit how many live show tickets sell on the back of somebody pirating a song, loving it, becoming a fan and so on.

Do SI/Sega have a figure on how many bought the game originally cheap on the 2nd hand market, taking a punt as it was cheap and becoming a fan? As accurate a figure of how many pirated the game who would have genuinely bought it methinks.

I've downloaded illegal music a ton, but would never have paid for it....

[Jibby123]

Just an idea:

To stop the inevitable flooding of the forums when the activation servers for Steam get clogged up, SI should really ask if there isn't some sort of grace period can't be added to the activation, i.e. you can play the game for 7 days before activating.

Good shout....because come release day the steam site will cope right?