Thank you.You've asked how we're letting people know about this. Well, apart from the forum thread, there was a mailshot on Friday to hundreds of thousands of our registered customers to let them know about it, as well as telling them about the blogs and the release date. Since then, pre-orders have gone up massively with our pre-order position at Amazon in the UK (for example) going up from the mid 20's into the top 10, peaking at 5 and currently at 7, which is way higher than we normally are at this time of year. There will also be, front of pack in between the SI logo and the age rating, in big letters, the words "requires internet connection to activate", which was insisted upon by me for us to be able to go ahead with this. I will be chasing SEGA first thing on Monday to ensure that all retailers who have packshots online switch to the final packshot, rather than the one they are currently using.
Most of this thread now, just seems to be turning into a load of...
This may have also skewed the 4% of people who used the phone activation. If there was more availability how does anyone know that stat would not have been much higher?
Again I ask, Would it ruin your day if the company attempted to help all customers? Why are you against them getting assistance?
EDIT: No mention of needing internet and steam to activate FM12.
Last edited by pigfacemonkeyman; 20-09-2011 at 16:06. Reason: context
Last edited by greenone; 20-09-2011 at 16:25.
Last edited by Barside; 20-09-2011 at 16:26.
Still going round in circles folks? okay I'll pop back later, you never know....................
Surely tho someone that downloads FM Illegally will just not bother downloading it if it's more difficult to do so? They won't then go out and buy the original game, There's no chance they are long term FM fans and probably never bought a original copy of any previous releases
Turning to the question of this method will cut down piracy, utter bo**ocks, if anything it will drive people to piracy, furthermore, if this goes t*ts up they will lose even more customers next year. A big gamble in my eyes.
I would say Sega/SI have an obligation to state clearly on their own websites (Sega Shop) and other sites such as Amazon & Play that you are required to activate through the steam platform as it stands they are misleading customers.
Sega/SI are in for a lot of grief if they continue to market the product on these large retail websites without properly stating these facts.
Last edited by data6930; 20-09-2011 at 16:57.
28 pages and we are still on about this. :/
Any more insults and it will close, it's gone past silly now.
The whole piracy aspect is not feasible in the long run. Most of those places that use pirated versions of games are usually in places where people simply can't afford to pay the full price of games, so what is the logic behind this statement from SEGA? Do they seriously think that these people are going to purchase it now with this whole Steam issue...?Originally Posted by David - SEGA
Each year we give you an update on the status of copy protection and activation of Football Manager and the decisions taken as we know it’s a hot topic for many of you, although for many others it’s not really an issue at all.
As you may remember, last year we decided against any activation as we couldn't find a solution that we thought struck a balance on combatting piracy and not penalising the genuine consumer. We did make our position on anti-piracy pretty clear though, we see it as a big problem for our game and we said we'd continue to look for a solution that stopped, or made it very difficult to pirate the game and play it for free.
This year we have found what we believe is an acceptable solution. Any version of Football Manager 2012 bought on disc will have to be activated through the Steam network, so therefore purchasers will have to have an internet connection for initial activation. This is a one-time only activation which requires you to sign up for a Steam account (which is free) and to install the Steam client and once it has been done the game can be played offline by turning on Steam's Offline mode. With those two simple steps done there are no more hoops to jump through or steps to take.
We appreciate that the vast majority of people reading this post on the forums are genuine consumers of the game, and that having to activate is not as simple as putting the game in the drive and playing. However we hope that, as a fan of the game, you feel that having to do a one-time activation is worth it to try to prevent others playing the game for free and stealing what you purchase with no punishment, and with no contribution toward the future of Football Manager and it's development. Make no mistake, if a quarter of the people that usually pirate the game switch to purchasing Football Manager 2012, the sales of the game worldwide would more than double. This would lead to increased development budgets and more benefits for all of you who do buy the game.
We've taken this decision because we believe that the steps the consumer has to take are not excessive, and that as a one-time only measure with no tracking or reporting it is not too intrusive. Having worked with Steam for a few years now we also believe that their system is ever improving and gives Football Manager players a good service of free auto-updating, achievements and other great benefits without cost or hassle.
We hope you understand and support the decision. It's by no means taken lightly, although I hope for the vast majority of you it's nowhere near as big an issue as we treat it as being.
• You need to connect to the internet to activate Football Manager 2012 on PC and Mac before you start playing it
• To activate you will need to sign up to, and install the Steam client
• Once you have activated Football Manager 2012 you can then play it in Steam's "offline mode" - meaning you do not have to be connected to the internet to play
• Saved games are stored locally on your machine, but you can play Football Manager on any machine by signing into Steam and selecting it from your purchased games
• Staying connected to Steam will mean Football Manager 2012 is automatically updated with any patches or data updates released
Still, I've read enough about Steam to make a balanced decision not to use the software and therefore not to play FM 2012 (which is a shame). I will though wait for the initial reports after release day. Hopefully for SI's sake it won't be a total balls up, but I have my doubts.
Somebody posted some links earlier to various discussions and interviews on piracy, it's worth looking at in depth to realise what are the critical factors for the game distributors/developers and why there are certain actions they can take which will drastically reduce the impact on their bottom line, without ever pretending they can prevent piracy.
if i compare you banning him to buying a car will you forgive me??
Or you could just buy a wireless dongle and if you live in the UK you're almost guaranteed to have the possibility to connect to the internet. http://btopenzone.hotspot-directory.com/ (I've already had a discussion about 'but not everybody lives in the UK,' yes I know but I do and I know the situation here, look for a similar service in other countries if you're that bothered)
EDIT: Damn my reply took ages to write, now he's banned
Last edited by afced7; 20-09-2011 at 17:38.
Last edited by The Welsh Lad; 20-09-2011 at 17:42.
nah you will have to have the computer playing FM connected to the net at some point, i would hope FM will come with the steam client on the disk, and from there you have to install and then activate the game online, this can only be done by using the computer FM is on, from there technically speaking you should not need the net again until you want to update, just make sure and follow the instructions on the steam FAQ.
Well what an eye-opener. I guess BT are just intentionally lying to everybody. The only place I've ever been and not been able to get any signal at all is on the motorway.
Last edited by afced7; 20-09-2011 at 18:09.
They can only use the information that you supply them with.
Last edited by afced7; 20-09-2011 at 18:22.
I can get used to it, I am blessed with all the things that make it possible for me to play the game. I just have difficulties swallowing this whole piracy aspect, let's face it, most of the people that acquire pirated copies of games, music and movies are from places where the average income is 50-60 euros a month. Now to expect these people to use a tenth of their yearly income on a single game is just 'out to lunch'...
Last edited by Loversleaper; 20-09-2011 at 18:29.
That would be playing habit, and computer spec, you think that it searches your computer for all personal information.
Keep things civil and refrain from projecting untrue images on fellow gamers.
As somebody said of Sega/SI earlier if you're going to quote figures, make sure they're correct.
How about you follow your own advice there sonny, your point seems far more like a last line of defence than mine squirtHey listen kid, why did you have to throw something like this? When have I been crying about anything or mention people's lives are over? This tends to be the last wall of defense, which doesn't really make you look like an adult...
Keep things civil and refrain from projecting untrue images on fellow gamers.
Stop with the handbags please, or there'll be no discussion.
The Mods have tried very hard to keep this thread open for reasonable discussion of this issue. As Kriss has said, if if cant be kept civil, without the personal sniping, then infractions will follow, so have a think before posting again
Thai Minimum wage varies from province to provice with Bangkok and Samut Prakan on the highest (£4.32) and Payao, Pichit, Prae and Mae Hong Son on the lowest (£3.17)
EDIT: Should add that these figures are from 2010
RE-EDIT: I know average wages should be taken with a pinch of salt because in the UK its about £30,000 i think and I don't know many on near that. and also this is the last on the subject otherwise it will go off topic.
Last edited by The Welsh Lad; 20-09-2011 at 19:09.
@Welsh ladMake no mistake, if a quarter of the people that usually pirate the game switch to purchasing Football Manager 2012, the sales of the game worldwide would more than double. This would lead to increased development budgets and more benefits for all of you who do buy the game.
You see this is what I was referring to, not if the people in poor countries have their priorities straight regarding internet connections - so you missed the point (but I may have not been totally clear).
Statistically SEGA could be correct, but there is another side to the story. These large numbers they are talking about doesn't give the whole picture because if this was only going on in the "west" then I could see the point, but we are talking about a global perspective. Globally most piracy occurs in countries where people are generally very poor compared to our standards, they can't afford to purchase the game as we can. So, to think that forcing us to use Steam will magically make these people all of a sudden change their minds to dish out large ammounts (for them) for a computer game is what is really far fetched. These numbers being thrown up doesn't coincide with reality...
Obviously this decision is going to make some people not be able to play the game, they understand that. They understand that its going to cost people a bit more money i.e. getting internet put in. The reason for this is whilst in an ideal world is to stop the person that cracks the game, because we are not in an ideal world this looks at making the people that download a cracked game from doing so because patches (I think and should) will only be available through Steam, and if you haven't got a register game through Steam (not bought) you wont be able to download patches (I know that these will most probably find a way to be cracked aswell) but you should be able to see why they have taken it down this route.
It may end up being the wrong decision, it may end up being the right decision. We wont know until the game is released.
The problem is people say like the qoute you put, everyone that does not buy the game comes under the pirate bracket, thats why people say you wont stop pirates because they are hell bent on breaking the law, the same has hackers because they like a challenge. They well I hope will be stopped, its the ones that download it they want to stop.
My first ever Managerment game (cant remember the name it was like playing a board game and had the player death square in the corner, land on it and a player died), I had to save for out of my weekly pocket money. I can sympathise with people who struggle to afford lifes luxuries. But because I cant afford a buggehti doesnt mean I should illegaly obtain one. I have never owned a top brand pair of trainers all mine come from Shoe Zone for £10. I've had to save up for FM12, sorry for those who can't afford to save but still doesn't give them the right to steal. Everyone was up in arms because of the riots, some of the looters were saying they did it because other people have the stuff why cant they (Is that right, because you got it I haven't therefore I must steal it).
If companies didn't want to protect its products there would be no shop shutters, no car alarms etc. I understand some peoples have the right to come on here and fight for the ones that havent got interent but unfortunatly unless this decision goes belly up on release day nothing can be done.
EDIT: Sorry for the car analogy Kriss
Just because people are looting in London it doesn't mean that we have to have a curfew in Amsterdam...
Yes, you're right, Miles Jacobsen's clear first priority is to SI and SEGA, not to the FM Community. I'd be more comfortable with that if he didn't pretend to be one of the fans, but I think he does do that so he is disingenuous.
But, I simply don't agree with your wider view on this. You're right, the people who release content, provide data on players etc. clearly love the game and why wouldn't they? After all, its always been a game to a large degree made by the fans and SI have recognised that. Until now. As per my response to Miles, I think they are endangering that relationship now. They can't rely on unconditional love for the game.
I can't help but notice that, among the people here who disagree with SI's initiative re. Steam activation, there seems to be a lot of knowledge about games, piracy, technology etc. - far far more than I possess. There are some very well informed, capable, and respected members of the community who are at odds with SI here. I'd put other content providers into that group as well and I suspect that certainly some are having doubts now about whether they want to continue to provide content or directly help SI. I really think SI has taken its community for granted.
Pirates are getting blamed becuase they have internet connection and because they are pirates hell bent on breaking the law, breaking the law is breaking the law. If you don't have the internet you cant download craked games. You can buy copied CDs which is illegal aswell so still breaking the law.
People who buy the game and dont have/can't get access to the internet are not getting blamed for anything, they are just an unfourtunate section of people that has a result of can't play FM12.
But, to ignore parts of the post that explains why SI and SEGA have made this decision and make your own conlusion that people without internet, people who cant afford it etc. are being blamed or victimised is obsured. To be frankly honest.
Do the piraters send back their sales figures to Sega/SI??
How does anyone know the lost revenue (to the game publishers) from piraters??
Genuine question....I'm just intrigued.
It's in a game publisher's interest to play the line "if we inconvienience you....it will help us make a better game for you".
@ Lord Rowell
Miles is a fan of the game and a fan of football. Thats why he like many fans of the game want to protect the longevity of the game now, not when it is to late.Yes, you're right, Miles Jacobsen's clear first priority is to SI and SEGA, not to the FM Community. I'd be more comfortable with that if he didn't pretend to be one of the fans, but I think he does do that so he is disingenuous
In the same way, we cant expect the game to be around forever without some sort of protection against pirates (even if it doesn't make much of fence)But, I simply don't agree with your wider view on this. You're right, the people who release content, provide data on players etc. clearly love the game and why wouldn't they? After all, its always been a game to a large degree made by the fans and SI have recognised that. Until now. As per my response to Miles, I think they are endangering that relationship now. They can't rely on unconditional love for the game.
If you know where to look you can find stats on FM2011 illegal downloads , SEGA and SI will have those stats and it numbers well into the hundreds of thousands from the sites I can find and that doesnt include numerous private trackers where unless you know how to access the site you will never find out. And no im not gonna tell you the sites , I check these things as part of my job so I know what im looking for
Steam isnt a burden on any system purchased in the last 3 years IMO , running a browser is more intensive than anything running in the background - hell set it to low priority and it will chow through nothing while FM is running.
How many sales will SI lose over the activation ? A few but not that many IMO , how many will it gain ? Probably more than it will lose , and TBH if the game is any way decent it will sell very well indeed. I dont think losses by SEGA will have an input into using Steam, that is the premier download system and if you take a step back it could be a lot worse SI could be partnered with EA and be forced to use Origin which is the worst POS ive ever seen in my life
You are dead right, we can't expect the game not to have protection and nowhere have I suggested otherwise. I'm not a techy expert on these things but, as aforementioned, a lot of people here who do seem to know their stuff think this measure won't help much at all in stopping a cracked copy. I do know enough about the wider context, that stopping a pirate won't make them make a purchase, I've seen enough data on a variety of media to draw that conclusion and this is an area I DO know how to interpret with my economics background.
I think that people could have been presented with alternative options. For example a. Use Steam or b. if you can't / don't want to, keep the disk in your drive. Even if that or other options weren't viable, I'm not convinced this was the right measure. All it will do it annoy people and may well end up creating more piracy.
IMO this whole thing has been badly handled without due consideration to the community. I'd be pretty confident some serious discussions are taking place behind closed doors now. SI were launching FM12 via the blogs and podcasts, here, yet this thread is still the dominant topic. Despite suggestions last night that it was dying, another 5 pages today and getting on for 30 in total now. PR disaster.
Just an idea:
To stop the inevitable flooding of the forums when the activation servers for Steam get clogged up, SI should really ask if there isn't some sort of grace period can't be added to the activation, i.e. you can play the game for 7 days before activating.
This insinuation that this online activation crap is for our (genuine, paying fans year in year out) benefit; i.e. a better game in the future is dressed up way of saying it's purely about profit for them and nothing wrong with that; private companies are about them making profit. Dressing it up as some sort benefit our way is wooly.
As the record companies will never admit how many live show tickets sell on the back of somebody pirating a song, loving it, becoming a fan and so on.
Do SI/Sega have a figure on how many bought the game originally cheap on the 2nd hand market, taking a punt as it was cheap and becoming a fan? As accurate a figure of how many pirated the game who would have genuinely bought it methinks.
I've downloaded illegal music a ton, but would never have paid for it....