I don't have access to the internet except when at work, and when at my sisters. My PC is not equipped to be carried to an internet connection to activate a game.
I won't be able to activate the game, so therefore may as well not bother buying.
Has Sega and Sports Interactive actually even considered those without the internet? Or do they think everyone has it now? Not everyone can afford the internet. With regards to internet, 99% of them you sign up to a yearly contract, something I can't afford to do right now. Though a game I enjoy(ed) I can afford once a year to play instead if I saved for it.
So what do Sega and SI suggest I do then?
p.s. if this has been answered in here, I have not seen it as its a really long thread, and not got the time during my lunch hour to read it all.
But there are valid points on here none the less. I don't agree with the "I don't like steam" argument. What I do have an issue with, is being forced to use it and then being told it's to combat piracy.
Analogy time (I like this one):
Using steam to combat piracy is like building a 1 foot fence around your house and your neighbours house to stop burglars stealing your stuff. Your neighbour says it'll make no difference and he doesn't want to be forced to step over it every day but you do it anyway. When the real motive for building it is because you're mates with the fence building guy and it's mutually beneficial (not to combat burglars ;)).
Why don't they just bring back LASERLOK ??
Oh, crap. I've been using Steams for years. Yesterday my internet stopped and I decided to see what all the fuss is about. I tried to run FM, got a message from Steam with the option to run in offline mode, which just produced another error message
Good thing my connection is super stable, but I wouldn't count on the offline mode.
Last edited by CaptainPlanet; 20-09-2011 at 13:12.
2.) Im sorry but i cant manage 50 different accounts. Some people have way more games than i do. Should they have 200 different accounts?
3.) True, until offline mode decides it wants to check online again. Besides how can you know you dont want the new patch if you dont try it first?
4.) True, but still an inconvenience. Not a major problem i agree.
5.) Should people move just to play FM? I dont have that problem but many others do. Just cause i dont have that problem doesnt mean its not a problem.
6.) Steam is very poor copy protection system. All steam games are pirated the moment they are released. Check the torrent sites on the day of release if you dont believe me. And no...im not advocating such a thing. Just stating that going with steam only because of piracy is a very flawed argument. Most likely its just a lie to hide whatever their true motive is.
I believe one of the reason's Steam has been taken up this year is that its got to the stage where internet access is near universal and therefore it is commercially viable to do this.
Of course there are exceptions, but you can't cater for everyone.
Steam's patching system works under the assumption that the latest game version is the "best", i.e. bug fixed and as-intended. Thus this is pushed out whenever possible and any older, buggy versions are phased out. While this obviously eliminates patching choice for us users - arguably not desirable - let's not lose sight of the fact that it's only really considered a problem due to bad patching resulting from inadequate testing. To me that's the core issue to address, not Steam's perhaps overly idealistic patching strategy. There shouldn't be a reason to want to use an outdated version - that suggests they've messed something up in the newer one.
In the case of FM I suppose there may be subjective reasons, like maybe preferring previous ME behavior, but I think it's worth at least understanding that the system is what it is to make sure players have a smooth experience with as few bugs and as many fixes in place as possible, not to limit choice or force anything through. Xbox Live does the exact same thing for Xbox 360 games for instance, if the console is connected. From my experience with Steam over the years there is no feature in place to let you "choose which version to use", and it's probably unrealistic to expect it to be coded into Steam just for FM.
Just for some perspective. Steam isn't for everyone - last year's system of choice seems preferable to me - but some parts of it are painted as borderline malicious/anti-consumer here when this really isn't the intent. It's a digital download system and online community designed for Internet connected computers - it functions best when you use it as such and less so the more you fight it. As a payload for just a single game it's clearly "heavy"; it only really comes into its own when used as the gaming platform it's meant to be. It's not really surprising to me to see people who don't want to use it as such grow sour with it, but really, direct that frustration at the publisher that left you no other choice, not Steam.
SI/SEGA are the ones with the numbers here, but unlike for games with predominantly "gamer" audiences, I don't think Steam-only is a good idea for FM that from my perspective seems to have a predominantly casual/non-gamer audience of simply football fans. A tie-in to a platform like Steam is likely of no interest to a lot of these people and the slightest addition to system requirements (say, have an Internet connection, or a graphics card that isn't 7 years old from back when the 3D engine was released) causes wider issues than with more "techy" gaming crowds. I could be wrong - Miles' numbers seem to suggest that most people did use Steam last year when given the choice - these are just my impressions.
I'm guessing we'll need to wait for the FM12 sales numbers to draw any conclusions.
Last edited by Scab; 20-09-2011 at 13:23.
Plenty of examples of Murphy's law
Personally I'm 100% sure I won't download a hacked version: it would take ages for me, then I'd probably have to find cracks, passwords etc from very untrustful sources. Which would be ALMOST as ennoying as subscribing to steam.
Unfortunately I'm also 100% sure I won't buy the game (SI may not care, but this is my only way to express my aversion for their decision)
I am curious why SI didn't mention the STEAM announcement when they first started releasing bits of info, I mean even if it was not definate at the time they should still have mentioned they were looking into this and got some feedback from their customers first, I think all the protest that is appearing may just have taken them by suprise a bit.
It would be good to hear from an SI rep and tell us why they will not release a non steam version as well, it would solve all the protests if we had the option of either way of going. I mean they can't honestly think we are going to believe them for the reason stated by them about piracy.
Please SI come into the forum and discuss with us the reasons for this and what future releases will be like ie: will they go to an option of a steam version and a non-steam version for FM13? Or at least consider and discuss with us their fans about the possiblity of this happening.
It was weird, the timing of the announcement. They had to have had this in place before the feature blogs were started, if not well before.
It's their company, their game, they may have made a mistake by taking the decision out of the consumers hands. But that's their choice.
I think they knew exactly what feedback they would get. Make no mistake of that.
There has been no decision made about FM13, I would imagine. It will depend on how well Steam goes for FM12, as it's the first time trying this system.
Making FM available on Steam is a good idea, as was opening it up to other online distributers.
Am I the only one that doesn't understand why someone who objects to third party software would then use a torrent client from a third party and entrust the security of their system to a hacked game?
Unless of course there is some data none of us know about showing that steam activated games are significantly less susceptible to piracy. If that's the case good move, it'll be worth it. But I really, really doubt that data exists.
Last edited by greenone; 20-09-2011 at 14:03.
This decision in my view (and this is entirely my own view/interpretation before anyone jumps all over me for it) is this:
1. SEGA/SI want some kind of registry in an attempt to combat piracy, but they want it to be financially relatively low risk.
2. Steam offer it for free on the condition that all users have to download & be logged into steam at all times while playing (increasing traffic and therefore sales).
3. SEGA/SI realise this is the best option for them and they have a LOYAL (can't think of a better word) and die hard fan base, and a near monopoly on the genre of PC management sims, therefore can afford to force steam on their customers. Leaving their customers only 2 choices, do what your told or don't play FM. This is why I'm peeved. (Not peeved enough to not play FM though )
I'm of the opinion people deserve to be paid for their work. And if Steam can prevent some privacy so that the good folks that make this wonderful game that I have so far enjoyed over 900 hours on FM11 alone can get paid and produce an even better game for me, rather than going bust.
Yeh I'm on SI, Sega and Steams side.
Games companys made games that need certain requirements. It's up to the potential users to see if they have the right hardware to play those games. That not of any concern of the game company if you dont have internet.
When FM2009 was released my PC could match the requirements to play the game in 3D. Should i blame SI for that? If i what to play the game... buy a new PC (or upgrade).
But in yout case, you dont even need to do that. Go to your sisters house and activate the game there. they play it with steam in offline mode!
I don't get that. Once one pirated version is made that's it. It will just be uploaded and downloaded over thousands of forums. Where do we get the idea that there are hundreds of people trying to work out how to pirate the game. It is more likely 5 or 6 people focusing on FM for example. 5 pirated copies sent out will be 5000 in a week.
Yeh I'm on SI, Sega and Steams side.
And someone who can't see why the company will not offer another option is against them and for the pirates....missing the point.
A really interesting interview with a guy who breaks these games stated that he "loved a challenge".
Last edited by aaron70; 20-09-2011 at 14:14.
I don't really want easy access to another way to waste my money. It's like I said in an earlier post, How many times have you been into a shop to get something specific and bought something else as well?
Read all the interviews you like.
You'll find some very interesting ones there. I've read about a dozen so far.
And all in all turns me more in the favour of Steam.
I think it's acceptable that having a home internet connection is a minimum requirement.
I did a search about the effectiveness of switching to Steamworks on fighting this theft. No-one is going to give away hard numbers, obviously and unfortunately, amd there isn't much out there but I thought it might be interesting anyway.
In a 2001 interview with PC Gamer, Valve's Gabe Newell and Erik Johnson said:
PC Gamer: Do you have a good sense of piracy rates with Steam games?
Gabe Newell: They’re low enough that we don’t really spend any time [on it]. When you look at the things we sit around and talk about, as big picture cross game issues, we’re way more concerned about the stability of DirectX drivers or, you know, the erroneous banning of people. That’s way more of an issue for us than piracy.
Once you create service value for customers, ongoing service value, piracy seems to disappear, right? It’s like “Oh, you’re still doing something for me? I don’t mind the fact that I paid for this.” Once you actually localise your product in Russia and ship it on the same day that you ship your English language versions, this theoretical hotbed of piracy becomes your second largest- third largest after Germany in continental Europe? Or third after UK?
Erik Johnson: In terms of retail units?
Gabe Newell: In terms of sales of our products, yeah. Overall, Steam plus retail.
Erik Johnson: Probably second. It’s a big number.
Gabe Newell: The point is that there’s this market that you shouldn’t waste your time on, that went from, “You shouldn’t waste our time on it, they’ll just pirate it,” to “it’s actually a really large market for us now,” once you actually do the things that allow your product to be played. And that’s why some of the DRM approaches are so bad, because they create negative value, not positive value.
That does point towards Steam being effective against software theft; Valve's idea is to offer the customer a service, to offer something more than one would get by simply stealing a game.
The just of this thread seems to be saying that, pirating can never be stopped so why bother trying, if we are to go down the wonderful path of analogies, why dont they just do away with the police? Your never going to stop crime, so why bother, why not just educate people when they are young and put faith and trust that they wont break the law? People who are inclined towards crime are going to commit them whether we have police or not, so why waste money trying to stop them when they could spend money improving our nation and education and most importantly, poverty? Forcing people to follow laws are just pushing them to do something illegal, because hey, we should have an unlimited number of choices in the world.
Also another thought, i would sincerely hope that every single one of these "loyal" customers are active in shopping any torrent of FM they come across on the net, as a "loyal" customer surely should be appalled to see FM being available for free. A lot of people on here who are against steam seem to have good knowledge on stealing the game, so it cant be that hard for them to track down a torrent on release day and email SI, SEGA or Miles directly with a link. I would hope these "loyal" customers would also shop anyone they knew using a pirate copy of FM, again they should be outraged at this happening, not condoning it.
Its just a thought really.
Downloaded cracked versions of the game aren't the only form of Piracy?
It's a bit harder to burn image copies of a CD and sell it at the local market when it's a Steam game.
I have a general questions as I might have done something wrong.
To test the waters with Steam I decided to activate FM2010 with them, I followed the install instructions after firing up the disk & was as expected re-directed to Steam to enter the activation code. I have now been pushed to a download manager which is installing the game via the Steam server rather than the disk.
Is this how the system works? Have I missed an option that would allow the faster disk installation? I only ask because even with a 20 meg broadband connection & assuming I'm probably the only person downloading FM2010 the estimated time required is slightly over 10 minutes which makes me wonder how long the process would take a day or two after release.
So the logic is "If we can stall pirates for 3 days and they'll go and buy it."
If i wanted something and it costs £30 but i know that if i wait a few days i can get it for free.... 3 days isn't that long to wait. "Oh no i have to wait 3 days.... I better go buy it then, oh damn you SI! Soooo wanted it for free on release day but i can't wait 3 days, i'll die!"
I highly doubt anyone is that impatient.
SI, just get rid of the need for us to keep Steam after activation. That's what most are annoyed about!
I've always said there's nothing you can do to stop piracy. You can take steps to cut it down.
But I've said all along that I don't think this route with Steam will help. But I'm willing to give Steam a go.
Sega and SI seem to think it will help. In so much that they hope to double their sales by going this route.
And this is something they have decided. If that's the decision based on doubling sales, I can't argue with them.
They do refuse to release numbers, for various reasons. But I have no reason to doubt them.
Because when you pay for something you want use it straight away