A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[MeekoHFC]

4. Is there really 4 times as many people playing pirate versions of FM2011 than paying for it? Really? I'd like to see where this figure comes from, how can you really estimate how many people play the game without paying for it. I mean not how many times an illegal version is downloaded, actually how many players.

SI must have put tracking software in the game, its the only way. Otherwise they are just guessing.

[jakobx]

How does having to install Steam negatively affect your FM playing experience? Are you able to purchase the game, install it, update it and play it successfully?

There are multiple ways steam can affect you negatively.

1.) if steam is down you cant play the game. And yes it happens. And before you mention offline mode. It works best when you are online.
2.) if steam blocks your account you cant play the game for many days until their customer support fixes the problem. Also happens.
3.) steam decided to die again. Cant play until you fix the steam installation. Usually deleting the clientregistry.blob helps.
4.) Your kid/wife is playing one of the games on steam. Cant play cause steam only allows one connection no matter how many games you have. Not very family friendly.
5.) Dont like the latest patch? Well..you can only play with the latest patch.
6.) New patch is out but you would like to play? Wait until patch is downloaded.
7.) unsupported country? Maybe it will work maybe not. Sucks to be german i guess.
8.) No net connection or capped? We dont care about you.

Pirates? You can download it on the release day from a much faster torrent.

[kymsheba]

How does having to install Steam negatively affect your FM playing experience? Are you able to purchase the game, install it, update it and play it successfully?

I don't think the majority of people have a problem with steam they have a problem of being forced to use steam in other words they don't have a choice. As for myself i have already stated i have bought my pre-oredered copy on steam but i don't agree with them forcing me to use steam to play a game of FM12.

Yes i have purchased it on steam whether i get it on the day is still to be seen they did this with DEAD ISLAND and stuffed up by releasing the wrong code version and it was delayed so steam is not reliable in this area.

Yes i probably will be able to install it but i had another game recently once again DEAD ISLAND that was a nightmare to install with registry key not being accepted had to get an answer from steam why this was and they had to do something on their end don't know what so once again steam is not that reliable at this end either.

As for update it well you just read some forums about how updates are not released same day there out i have read dozens of posts about them having to wait up to a week sometimes for steam to offer the update while everyone else just downloads it like normal, so once again steam not reliable in this area either.

So your points are not that good as steam has a history of failing to deliver on these areas.

cheers,
kymsheba

[milnerpoint]

1 - in offline mode servers are irrelevent
2 - steam will only block your account if you do something wrong and the VAC does not apply to FM so it will NEVER become an issue
3 - in 4 years never had to re-install steam, had to re-install windows twice tho....
4 - so they now make you follow the law, shame that
5 - fair enough
6 - dont need to download patches if you dont want to, set the game not to update automatically and set to offline mode, never updates.
7 - the game cannot be sold in Germany anyway, but as a GERMAN poster has shown you can register the game there, just not buy it through steam
8 - capped net, for a 10mb program?!!???!!

[milnerpoint]

As for update it well you just read some forums about how updates are not released same day there out i have read dozens of posts about them having to wait up to a week sometimes for steam to offer the update while everyone else just downloads it like normal, so once again steam not reliable in this area either.

So your points are not that good as steam has a history of failing to deliver on these areas.

cheers,
kymsheba

every single FM update has been on steam the second it was on here since they started using steam.

[kymsheba]

There are multiple ways steam can affect you negatively.

1.) if steam is down you cant play the game. And yes it happens. And before you mention offline mode. It works best when you are online.
2.) if steam blocks your account you cant play the game for many days until their customer support fixes the problem. Also happens.
3.) steam decided to die again. Cant play until you fix the steam installation. Usually deleting the clientregistry.blob helps.
4.) Your kid/wife is playing one of the games on steam. Cant play cause steam only allows one connection no matter how many games you have. Not very family friendly.
5.) Dont like the latest patch? Well..you can only play with the latest patch.
6.) New patch is out but you would like to play? Wait until patch is downloaded.
7.) unsupported country? Maybe it will work maybe not. Sucks to be german i guess.
8.) No net connection or capped? We dont care about you.

Pirates? You can download it on the release day from a much faster torrent.

perfectly stated steam is not as reliable as people seem to think.

[kymsheba]

every single FM update has been on steam the second it was on here since they started using steam.

re read what i said i didn't say FM updates i said updates did not mention FM in that reply, some people need to read slower i think.

cheers,
kymsheba

[Kriss]

SI must have put tracking software in the game, its the only way. Otherwise they are just guessing.

How would that tell them how many people are playing pirated copies? you do insist on your big brother conspiracy theory don't you? obviously they know how many legitimate copies were sold, they all had to be activated.
I'd assume the calculation is made by people monitoring sites that provide the copies, so it'll be a definite minimum with an estimated plus.
They may have other ways to get numbers but the whole operation is shrouded in secrecy and is a lot bigger than you'd know from the little that's publicised.

[CaptainPlanet]

I don't think the majority of people have a problem with steam they have a problem of being forced to use steam in other words they don't have a choice. As for myself i have already stated i have bought my pre-oredered copy on steam but i don't agree with them forcing me to use steam to play a game of FM12.

Yes i have purchased it on steam whether i get it on the day is still to be seen they did this with DEAD ISLAND and stuffed up by releasing the wrong code version and it was delayed so steam is not reliable in this area.

Yes i probably will be able to install it but i had another game recently once again DEAD ISLAND that was a nightmare to install with registry key not being accepted had to get an answer from steam why this was and they had to do something on their end don't know what so once again steam is not that reliable at this end either.

As for update it well you just read some forums about how updates are not released same day there out i have read dozens of posts about them having to wait up to a week sometimes for steam to offer the update while everyone else just downloads it like normal, so once again steam not reliable in this area either.

So your points are not that good as steam has a history of failing to deliver on these areas.

cheers,
kymsheba

So yes you can still purchase it, yes you can still install it and yes you can still play it?

[milnerpoint]

re read what i said i didn't say FM updates i said updates did not mention FM in that reply, some people need to read slower i think.

cheers,
kymsheba

ok, but here we are on an FM forum, speaking about steam related to FM, so if all the updates for FM have come on time with steam, whats the issue?

[milnerpoint]

perfectly stated steam is not as reliable as people seem to think.

everyone of those points except the latest patch one are complete nonsense and are doing nothing but add to the hysteria on here.

[kymsheba]

How would that tell them how many people are playing pirated copies? you do insist on your big brother conspiracy theory don't you? obviously they know how many legitimate copies were sold, they all had to be activated.
I'd assume the calculation is made by people monitoring sites that provide the copies, so it'll be a definite minimum with an estimated plus.
They may have other ways to get numbers but the whole operation is shrouded in secrecy and is a lot bigger than you'd know from the little that's publicised.

If they don't have accurate figures than don't go on the record and state numbers and such, if they don'y know exactly than they need to NOT say anything in that area where they don'y know they are just making it up.

Cheers,
kymsheba

[Keyzer Soze]

There are multiple ways steam can affect you negatively.

1.) if steam is down you cant play the game. And yes it happens. And before you mention offline mode. It works best when you are online.
2.) if steam blocks your account you cant play the game for many days until their customer support fixes the problem. Also happens.
3.) steam decided to die again. Cant play until you fix the steam installation. Usually deleting the clientregistry.blob helps.
4.) Your kid/wife is playing one of the games on steam. Cant play cause steam only allows one connection no matter how many games you have. Not very family friendly.
5.) Dont like the latest patch? Well..you can only play with the latest patch.
6.) New patch is out but you would like to play? Wait until patch is downloaded.
7.) unsupported country? Maybe it will work maybe not. Sucks to be german i guess.
8.) No net connection or capped? We dont care about you.

Pirates? You can download it on the release day from a much faster torrent.

Number 5! It's the only point were you are right! But i still did not loose hope that SI/SEGA/Steam can figure out a way to turn this around. Because, FM is a special case in terms of patches. In other games 100% of the users install the latest patch, but in FM case, their are a good number of users that prefer a older version instead of the latest one.

Would like a word from someone from SI (or Sega), if it was possible to make available not just the latest patch on steam.

[Wakers]

People are still under the impression that offline mode is infallible. It isn't, check the steam forums or do some googling.

[kymsheba]

ok, but here we are on an FM forum, speaking about steam related to FM, so if all the updates for FM have come on time with steam, whats the issue?

because there is no guarantee that will happen otherwise all the problems with updates to other games wouldn't occur either, so FM may well have the same issues regarding updates we will just have to wait and see but don't try and suggest it will never happen.

cheers,
kymsheba

[Eugene Tyson]

1.) if steam is down you cant play the game. And yes it happens. And before you mention offline mode. It works best when you are online.

Not sure what you mean by "works best when you are online"? It works exactly the same if you're in offline or online mode, doesn't it?

4.) Your kid/wife is playing one of the games on steam. Cant play cause steam only allows one connection no matter how many games you have. Not very family friendly.

You should have separate Steam accounts. And purchase a version of the game for each account. That's what's required.

5.) Dont like the latest patch? Well..you can only play with the latest patch.

If you remain in Offline Mode you won't get the Patches.

6.) New patch is out but you would like to play? Wait until patch is downloaded.

Again Offline Mode and you won't get Patches.

8.) No net connection or capped? We dont care about you.

It's now a requirement of the game, it will be up to you to have sufficient internet connection or download space on your account.

I'm sure you're resourceful enough to sort this out, perhaps using a friends internet connection or something?

Pirates? You can download it on the release day from a much faster torrent.

How do you know? It hasn't been released yet?

I certainly hope you aren't advocating that people wait for the pirated version rather than installing a legitimate version of the game using the methods specified by SI and Sega for playing the game through Steam?

[pigfacemonkeyman]

There are multiple ways steam can affect you negatively.

1.) if steam is down you cant play the game. And yes it happens. And before you mention offline mode. It works best when you are online.
2.) if steam blocks your account you cant play the game for many days until their customer support fixes the problem. Also happens.
3.) steam decided to die again. Cant play until you fix the steam installation. Usually deleting the clientregistry.blob helps.
4.) Your kid/wife is playing one of the games on steam. Cant play cause steam only allows one connection no matter how many games you have. Not very family friendly.
5.) Dont like the latest patch? Well..you can only play with the latest patch.
6.) New patch is out but you would like to play? Wait until patch is downloaded.
7.) unsupported country? Maybe it will work maybe not. Sucks to be german i guess.
8.) No net connection or capped? We dont care about you.

Pirates? You can download it on the release day from a much faster torrent.

1 - in offline mode servers are irrelevent
2 - steam will only block your account if you do something wrong and the VAC does not apply to FM so it will NEVER become an issue
3 - in 4 years never had to re-install steam, had to re-install windows twice tho....
4 - so they now make you follow the law, shame that
5 - fair enough
6 - dont need to download patches if you dont want to, set the game not to update automatically and set to offline mode, never updates.
7 - the game cannot be sold in Germany anyway, but as a GERMAN poster has shown you can register the game there, just not buy it through steam
8 - capped net, for a 10mb program?!!???!!

I can see that you like to be thorough when posting specific responses so I felt you might appreciate it if I pointed out that you have overlooked a small detail.

[Keyzer Soze]

If you remain in Offline Mode you won't get the Patches.

Ok Eugene, but imagine this situation. You buy the game in March. After the release of patch number 3. You activate the game, and immediately you'll get patch number 3 in your game.

If it was today, you could install the original version, then download patch number 1, install it, play it! Ok, let go try patch number 2.... and so on.

This is a "feature" that, as it stands, we will loose in the future.

[Barside]

Eugene, with reference to point 5 your solution does not work, how is a player to know that they do not like a patch & would prefer to to go back a step without actually downloading the latest update, once that is done there is no turning back?

Edit: Too slow

[milnerpoint]

because there is no guarantee that will happen otherwise all the problems with updates to other games wouldn't occur either, so FM may well have the same issues regarding updates we will just have to wait and see but don't try and suggest it will never happen.

cheers,
kymsheba

so you've sited one game when you had an issue, i have used steam for the 30 odd games i have on my account, each one has updated when it should have, half life, counter strike, fm any of the big titles i have bought, all your doing is scaremongering because one time you had an issue with one game.
Yet again ill say it, in the 3 years steam has released FM they have released the patches the exact same time they were made available on here or any other website. That is the only important stat here, other games do not matter.

[Loversleaper]

I, for one, am a little disappointed in the selfabsorbed horsepucky ideology some of the people on here are using. Of course, they are blissfully numb because they have been spoilt with all the things that make this move from SI/SEGA a non existant problem for them. The "oh, it doesn't effect me so what's the problem?" attitude is just plain disrespectfull and I really urge some of you to show more compassion. There are a lot of people that won't be able to play the game due to the internet connection and they won't have a say on here due to obvious reasons, so there are a few that are sticking up for them or have had bad experiences with the Steam reality.

Just because it doesn't effect you it doesn't mean that it isn't an issue ...

[Wakers]

The thing about offline mode is that its meant as a temporary solution, not as something that they expect/want people to be using all the time.

[Kriss]

If they don't have accurate figures than don't go on the record and state numbers and such, if they don'y know exactly than they need to NOT say anything in that area where they don'y know they are just making it up.

Cheers,
kymsheba

They'll be happy that their estimates give them a pretty clear picture, and all the fuss is because as you suggest they don't give figures down to 10 digits and people keep demanding they do.

[milnerpoint]

I can see that you like to be thorough when posting specific responses so I felt you might appreciate it if I pointed out that you have overlooked a small detail.

well done picking up on the half sentence i missed out, good to see your paying attention to my posts

[Eugene Tyson]

Fair enough guys, patches will be downloaded.

There should be definitely an option of which patch you want to download!


From reading through the Steam Forums on problems with offline mode - starting with the most recent I could find.

These two links popped up an awful lot in regards to many offline issues and scenarios

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...3160-AGCB-2555

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...1456-EUDN-2493


It is certainly worth the effort of searching the Steam forums, as Wakers already suggested.

[kymsheba]

Eugene, with reference to point 5 your solution does not work, how is a player to know that they do not like a patch & would prefer to to go back a step without actually downloading the latest update, once that is done there is no turning back?

Edit: Too slow

he obviously didn't think of this because he is so worried about protecting steams rep he does not accept the bad things that come with having steam. as Keyzer Soze pointed out to bad if you uninstall and then later down the track want to reinstall it without the latest patch.

cheers,
kymsheba

[Keyzer Soze]

Perhaps a great solution... and maybe a great feature for... FM2013:

like you can choose the database version on the start of a save game, we could also choose the version of the ME.

Because i think the bigger problem with not liking the latest patch, it's because of the ME.

[Kriss]

Ok Eugene, but imagine this situation. You buy the game in March. After the release of patch number 3. You activate the game, and immediately you'll get patch number 3 in your game.

If it was today, you could install the original version, then download patch number 1, install it, play it! Ok, let go try patch number 2.... and so on.

This is a "feature" that, as it stands, we will loose in the future.

Yes it is and I've already pointed that out to SI, Steam have the power to make that possible fairly simply I think, atm they integrate the latest patch and that's it, they need have auto update off as the default and then let you select from a list of patches.

Will they do it? your guess is as good as mine, I've no idea how many people actually want that ability but it would need to be signifant numbers for them to even consider I'd guess.

[kymsheba]

so you've sited one game when you had an issue, i have used steam for the 30 odd games i have on my account, each one has updated when it should have, half life, counter strike, fm any of the big titles i have bought, all your doing is scaremongering because one time you had an issue with one game.
Yet again ill say it, in the 3 years steam has released FM they have released the patches the exact same time they were made available on here or any other website. That is the only important stat here, other games do not matter.

other games do not matter???? are you serious i am a dedicated FM fan don't get me wrong, but i also do like my other $90 games to work when they are supposed to, get real man not everything revolves around FM and you, but i guess your one of those that as along as it doesn't affect you then the rest of the world doesn't matter.

cheers,
kymsheba

[milnerpoint]

The thing about offline mode is that its meant as a temporary solution, not as something that they expect/want people to be using all the time.

Where do you get all this info on offline mode from, i have used it constantly for 3 years, very rarely is my steam online, never once had a problem, you also said earlier that you had to log on every 30 days, again, complete nonsense, can you please link to where you are getting all of this info from, it would be interesting to read.

[kymsheba]

They'll be happy that their estimates give them a pretty clear picture, and all the fuss is because as you suggest they don't give figures down to 10 digits and people keep demanding they do.

then don't publish them and people won't ask questions about those figures but to just say here are some numbers we made up and accept our word for it without providing accurate data to back it up is stupid.

cheers,
kymsheba

[afced7]

Ok Eugene, but imagine this situation. You buy the game in March. After the release of patch number 3. You activate the game, and immediately you'll get patch number 3 in your game.

If it was today, you could install the original version, then download patch number 1, install it, play it! Ok, let go try patch number 2.... and so on.

This is a "feature" that, as it stands, we will loose in the future.

Loads of people whine that the game is crap until the third patch anyway.

[Kriss]

The thing about offline mode is that its meant as a temporary solution, not as something that they expect/want people to be using all the time.

Even so it should work properly, it has for me over periods up to a couple of weeks, if as has been suggested it auto connects after an extended period of offline it should at least warn first.

[Kriss]

then don't publish them and people won't ask questions about those figures but to just say here are some numbers we made up and accept our word for it without providing accurate data to back it up is stupid.

cheers,
kymsheba

You must be living in a cacoon, if piracy even gets mentioned everybody and his dogs demands they provide figures and if they don't piracy actually doesn't exist.

[kymsheba]

Loads of people whine that the game is crap until the third patch anyway.

loads of people also play with second patch and not 3rd either.

cheers,
kymsheba

[Eugene Tyson]

he obviously didn't think of this because he is so worried about protecting steams rep he does not accept the bad things that come with having steam. as Keyzer Soze pointed out to bad if you uninstall and then later down the track want to reinstall it without the latest patch.

cheers,
kymsheba

I couldn't care less about Steams rep.

I sincerely hope though that Steam works great for a majority of people. As I don't want to see FM fail because of Steam.

But I really care about FM, not Steam.

Ok I missed a point about Patches. And I accepted that.

[milnerpoint]

other games do not matter???? are you serious i am a dedicated FM fan don't get me wrong, but i also do like my other $90 games to work when they are supposed to, get real man not everything revolves around FM and you, but i guess your one of those that as along as it doesn't affect you then the rest of the world doesn't matter.

cheers,
kymsheba

Why would anything revolve around me? Lets not get personal here, i have not insulted you in anyway. The point still stands, we are talking about FM, what are peoples experiences with FM are what we should focus on, not other games, there are tons of reasons why things dont happen as they should, i am pointing out with FM all seems to work as it should, thats important on an FM forum talking about FM through steam.

[Barside]

After recently installing Steam I've had it running in offline mode for the last 24 hours & can report no suspicious activity, the next step will be to install FM10 via Steam & I'll be letting that run in holiday mode over night to see if there are any related issues on that front.

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...1456-EUDN-2493

There are quite a few common programmes on that list, *Devil's Advocate* Why can't steam optimise its software to not cause conflicts with some of the more common pieces of software. *End Devil's Advocate* (this is a rhetorical question)

[Wakers]

Where do you get all this info on offline mode from, i have used it constantly for 3 years, very rarely is my steam online, never once had a problem, you also said earlier that you had to log on every 30 days, again, complete nonsense, can you please link to where you are getting all of this info from, it would be interesting to read.

Just my personal experience using Steam and common sense. Offline mode tends to stop working when the Steam client needs updating, which again, tends to be every 30 or so days.

Steam being an online platform obviously would prefer its users to be in online mode rather than offline.

Offline mode, for me, tends to work the vast majority of the time, but will sometimes (typically at the worst possible times, sods law) not work for reasons best known to itself.

[CaptainPlanet]

Again, the only people who are affected to the ability of not being able to play FM12 at all are those who do not have an internet connection. Which is why the box will state that one is needed (not that that compensates those who have bought the series for years and are now unable to play it).

Anything else is just what ifs, rare cases and minor inconveniences.

The bottom line is, the vast vast majority of people who want to buy FM12 will be able to buy it, install it, active it and play it.

[kymsheba]

You must be living in a cacoon, if piracy even gets mentioned everybody and his dogs demands they provide figures and if they don't piracy actually doesn't exist.

it's cocoon mate, some people need a better education. And once again don't quote figures unless you can back it up.

cheers,
kymsheba

[Super Bladesman]

I use Steam, and when I last did my big English league file I used to leave it running over a weekend to test stability (of my update file). Never once had any issues.

[Kriss]

After recently installing Steam I've had it running in offline mode for the last 24 hours & can report no suspicious activity,

You didn't look out of your window at 10 PM last night then did you? after all your PM's I thought I'd better have you checked out

[kymsheba]

Why would anything revolve around me? Lets not get personal here, i have not insulted you in anyway. The point still stands, we are talking about FM, what are peoples experiences with FM are what we should focus on, not other games, there are tons of reasons why things dont happen as they should, i am pointing out with FM all seems to work as it should, thats important on an FM forum talking about FM through steam.

fair enough sorry if you took it personally, please accept my apologies to you.

cheers,
kymsheba

[HUNT3R]

You can pause any Steam download at any time and resume it also at any time, if you lose your connection it acts as a pause and when you recover your connection you then click once to resume if it doesn't resume automatically.

A Steam thread is planned but you can head to their forums or help pages anytime and there's a wealth of information, because FM is late on the scene in this regard they've already been through the hoops with other big games, so I doubt FM users will come across a problem that isn't already documented somewhere there.

Thanks for the reply. That's good news for me regarding patch downloads. Good to hear there is a thread / blog planned. Looking forward to it.

[Kriss]

it's cocoon mate, some people need a better education. And once again don't quote figures unless you can back it up.

cheers,
kymsheba

I didn't quote any, we're discussing the software industry research and if you think they just pull the numbers off of a wall you seriously are deluded.

[Wakers]

Fwiw I suspect offline mode will work much more reliably if you never switch it to online mode (which you can do once you've activated the game).

[pigfacemonkeyman]

well done picking up on the half sentence i missed out, good to see your paying attention to my posts

I'm glad to be of service, I was a little worried that I might have caused offence. As you are now aware of your ommission I am sure you will correct it, as I am extremely interested to hear your thoughts on it.

[Wakers]

I didn't quote any, we're discussing the software industry research and if you think they just pull the numbers off of a wall you seriously are deluded.

I wonder why Paradox seem to get completely different figures to Sega/other major publishers?

[afced7]

it's cocoon mate, some people need a better education. And once again don't quote figures unless you can back it up.

cheers,
kymsheba

1. That was a needless insult, and by the way you didn't start your first sentence with a capital letter, and you started your second with a connective. I don't think you're in a position to question people's education.
2. He didn't quote any figures in that post.

[Kriss]

I wonder why Paradox seem to get completely different figures to Sega/other major publishers?

None of them have pin point accuracy but are you seriously suggesting piracy isn't a problem and they're making up numbers just to convince people it is?

[aaron70]

You must be living in a cacoon, if piracy even gets mentioned everybody and his dogs demands they provide figures and if they don't piracy actually doesn't exist.

No, but when an apparently successful gaming company like Paradox admits it is not worth their time focusing on pirates, but that they would rather focus on making the gaming experience better for the consumer, you need to take some notice.

Interesting that the fact that another gaming company has said that DRM did nothing for their sales is being ignored.

[Wakers]

Not the piracy numbers, the fact that they don't see increased sales by using DRM.

I certainly think the bigger publishers are guilty of spinning certain research, yes.

[milnerpoint]

Just my personal experience using Steam and common sense. Offline mode tends to stop working when the Steam client needs updating, which again, tends to be every 30 or so days.

Steam being an online platform obviously would prefer its users to be in online mode rather than offline.

Offline mode, for me, tends to work the vast majority of the time, but will sometimes (typically at the worst possible times, sods law) not work for reasons best known to itself.

Well that is not my experience at all, or any of my pals, my mate has not had the net for about 8 months now because his network card is broken, he plays FM every day through steam it has never tried to re-connect.
Please if people are going to post this kind of stuff at least check the steam forums and website, offline mode should work indefinitely, it does not need to update or anything, even if it did, how would i know there were updates available if it is set up in offline mode??!!

[kymsheba]

I didn't quote any, we're discussing the software industry research and if you think they just pull the numbers off of a wall you seriously are deluded.

i was talking about them saying these things and not you, as for me thinking they pull numbers off the wall then you are indeed brainwashed and believe everything people tell you, they would have no idea how many pirated copies of their software are being used it is impossible to get any idea of the problem, what have they done,gone around to every household in the world and seen if they have a pirated version or not? Because that is the only way you would get an accurate number.

So please think about what you write and state before calling people deluded.

cheers,
kymsheba

[Loversleaper]

I wonder why Paradox seem to get completely different figures to Sega/other major publishers?

Maybe they are just one of those few companies that haven't had the wool pulled over their eyes and won't be intimidated by the big corps that are trying to have everyone dance to their fiddles...

[milnerpoint]

I'm glad to be of service, I was a little worried that I might have caused offence. As you are now aware of your ommission I am sure you will correct it, as I am extremely interested to hear your thoughts on it.

Dont you worry yourself pet, stress will only make things worse, if you would like in future ill PM all my posts to your inbox, just incase you miss any of them, i would hate to think of you getting worried because of an online forum post.

[Kriss]

No, but when an apparently successful gaming company like Paradox admits it is not worth their time focusing on pirates, but that they would rather focus on making the gaming experience better for the consumer, you need to take some notice.

Interesting that the fact that another gaming company has said that DRM did nothing for their sales is being ignored.

I don't think it is, one thing software companies (even bitter rivals) collaborate over is piracy, and they collaborate in a big way.
If the Paradox way keeps working for them others may well consider it but I suspect some at least would consider it too big a risk to take without much more proof that it's long term safe to do.
If it were to flop FM would be dead and gone.

[eddymunster]

it's cocoon mate, some people need a better education. And once again don't quote figures unless you can back it up.

cheers,
kymsheba

No point getting snippy with him mate. My point is mainly about the use of the figures. Where they get them from is never going to be that accurate. It's the using ridiculous scenario of, "if one quarter of people that use a pirated game by a real one.....". Using steam is not going to achieve anything like this, so using that as a reason for the decision is poor form.

I don't believe that the decision is motivated by piracy, I really don't. I think it is naive to believe that steam will cause a noticeable decline in piracy of the game, and even if it does the majority still won't buy it. There may be less places to get their thieving hands on it but they will get it free somewhere.

[playmaker]

Am I the only one that doesn't understand why someone who objects to third party software would then use a torrent client from a third party and entrust the security of their system to a hacked game?

[Wakers]

Well that is not my experience at all, or any of my pals, my mate has not had the net for about 8 months now because his network card is broken, he plays FM every day through steam it has never tried to re-connect.
Please if people are going to post this kind of stuff at least check the steam forums and website, offline mode should work indefinitely, it does not need to update or anything, even if it did, how would i know there were updates available if it is set up in offline mode??!!

Again, checking the steam forums shows that offline mode does not work all the time for everybody. You should accept that people have different experiences. Personally, I've been using Steam on and off since it was released. Offline mode has improved a lot since it was first introduced, but its still by no means perfect for everybody that uses it.

Sorry that it doesn't coincide with you and your friends' experiences.

If you swap between online and offline, your steam client will be queued to receive any update. If you go back into offline mode before the update begins, offline mode won't let you play any games.

This is what happened to me this past weekend with Deus Ex. On Sunday evening, I was unable to play 3/5 games because they needed to be updated. However, the network was apparently having problems pushing out the updates, so my client was in the queue, but not downloading (nor telling me that the games needed updating). This was with Borderlands, Magic the Gathering and Deus Ex.

Once the games had updated the following morning, they worked again.

[Katarian]

Just want to say thank you for posting this. I notice nobody made a comment on it even though it really supports the "no steam" argument.

I admire Paradox as a company and you can see what they want to do. They want to win customers over and support people who play the game.
"We don't believe pirates are worth our energy, time and passion. Instead we choose to focus on our paying customers by offering them extra services"
They are gaining strong loyalty because they treat people with respect. Sega, on the other hand, are doing what big companies do; bully consumers into acceptance because they focus on being reactive to pirates instead of proactive to their consumers.

As Paradox state clearly:
DRM is quite costly
Most DRM offers no extra value to paying customers
DRM causes a lot of extra support
There is no evidence that DRM actually increases our sales numbers

The best argument against the measures being introduced by Sega without a doubt. Big applause to Paradox (I love Vickie II by the way)
This is a company with a long gaming history. Surely what they say must be respected.

See this thread here stating that they sell more copies of their games on Steam then all the other sources. I haven't bought one of their games off Steam but I assume you have to run Steam to play them just like every other game on Steam. So they are more then happy to use Steam, they obviously feel that it is a form of DRM that offers paying customers extra value completely invalidating your arguement.

[CaptainPlanet]

Am I the only one that doesn't understand why someone who objects to third party software would then use a torrent client from a third party and entrust the security of their system to a hacked game?

[kymsheba]

No point getting snippy with him mate. My point is mainly about the use of the figures. Where they get them from is never going to be that accurate. It's the using ridiculous scenario of, "if one quarter of people that use a pirated game by a real one.....". Using steam is not going to achieve anything like this, so using that as a reason for the decision is poor form.

I don't believe that the decision is motivated by piracy, I really don't. I think it is naive to believe that steam will cause a noticeable decline in piracy of the game, and even if it does the majority still won't buy it. There may be less places to get their thieving hands on it but they will get it free somewhere.

yes i agree they can't go stating figures where there is no way to know the amount of piracy, it is impossible.

cheers,
kymsheba

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Fair enough guys, patches will be downloaded.

There should be definitely an option of which patch you want to download!


From reading through the Steam Forums on problems with offline mode - starting with the most recent I could find.

These two links popped up an awful lot in regards to many offline issues and scenarios

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...3160-AGCB-2555

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...1456-EUDN-2493


It is certainly worth the effort of searching the Steam forums, as Wakers already suggested.

I agree. Number 4 on the troubleshooting list https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...1456-EUDN-2493 is very interesting when you consider what programs might interfere with Steam. https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...9828-SFLZ-9289

[aaron70]

I don't think it is, one thing software companies (even bitter rivals) collaborate over is piracy, and they collaborate in a big way.
If the Paradox way keeps working for them others may well consider it but I suspect some at least would consider it too big a risk to take without much more proof that it's long term safe to do.
If it were to flop FM would be dead and gone.

I agree, and it may well if you do not care about your consumers. Paradox do that. Their forums are always active and positive with lots of interaction between Paradox and the consumers. Theyhave treated their consumer base so well that their sales figures have steadily increased each year.

I imagine so have the amount of games that have been pirated, but they acknowledge that piracy will not be stopped by DRM - it does not affect their sales figures - so they focus on increasing sales of their product by keeping their existing consumer base happy. I know this is scary for some!!

If Football Manager had existing customers dumping their product to get pirated copies, and did not increase its sales, then we have another issue as obviously Paradox has achieved it.

[milnerpoint]

I was going say you can buy paradox games through steam, seems like the worlds best game company is conspiring with the devil


(joke)

[Kriss]

Again, checking the steam forums shows that offline mode does not work all the time for everybody. You should accept that people have different experiences. Personally, I've been using Steam on and off since it was released. Offline mode has improved a lot since it was first introduced, but its still by no means perfect for everybody that uses it.

Sorry that it doesn't coincide with you and your friends' experiences.

If you swap between online and offline, your steam client will be queued to receive any update. If you go back into offline mode before the update begins, offline mode won't let you play any games.

This is what happened to me this past weekend with Deus Ex. On Sunday evening, I was unable to play 3/5 games because they needed to be updated. However, the network was apparently having problems pushing out the updates, so my client was in the queue, but not downloading (nor telling me that the games needed updating). This was with Borderlands, Magic the Gathering and Deus Ex.

Once the games had updated the following morning, they worked again.

So am I right in thinking that if all your games had been set to "not auto update" that wouldn't have happened unless you'd mamually asked to once online?

Not suggesting that's satisfactory, just making sure I can avoid that catch 22 situation.

[Eugene Tyson]

yes i agree they can't go stating figures where there is no way to know the amount of piracy, it is impossible.

cheers,
kymsheba

Don't they put tracking codes into the software? I know some softwares do. And it states that information such as computer, hardware, location etc. for possible false registration key will be transmitted to a website and they can then sort those by country and the amount of people.

Of course that is an estimate, as not everyone would be online.


But it's one possible way.

[kymsheba]

See this thread here stating that they sell more copies of their games on Steam then all the other sources. I haven't bought one of their games off Steam but I assume you have to run Steam to play them just like every other game on Steam. So they are more then happy to use Steam, they obviously feel that it is a form of DRM that offers paying customers extra value completely invalidating your arguement.

Yes they do sell through steam but they also give you the option of buying the games or mods through their website or others that DO NOT USE STEAM so in no way does it invalidate his argument. You can buy the same games or mods without going through steam they understand their customers and provide that ability whereas FM12 are not providing this same ability, I bet you any money what so ever if FM12 was available to buy without using steam then no one would have a problem with it.

cheers,
kymsheba

[milnerpoint]

Again, checking the steam forums shows that offline mode does not work all the time for everybody. You should accept that people have different experiences. Personally, I've been using Steam on and off since it was released. Offline mode has improved a lot since it was first introduced, but its still by no means perfect for everybody that uses it.

Sorry that it doesn't coincide with you and your friends' experiences.

If you swap between online and offline, your steam client will be queued to receive any update. If you go back into offline mode before the update begins, offline mode won't let you play any games.

This is what happened to me this past weekend with Deus Ex. On Sunday evening, I was unable to play 3/5 games because they needed to be updated. However, the network was apparently having problems pushing out the updates, so my client was in the queue, but not downloading (nor telling me that the games needed updating). This was with Borderlands, Magic the Gathering and Deus Ex.

Once the games had updated the following morning, they worked again.

I can fully accept that, but posting that steam requires you to re-connect after 30 days is miles off the mark, and does nothing buy scare people, its simply not the case at all.
We should surely be using this thread to help people understand steam rather than pointing out any issues people have had with it constantly, like i said my windows has had to be re-installed twice in the past year but no one is saying i should ditch it.
Again this is happening guys, like it or not. We should use this thread to educate and help people not just bad mouth steam constantly.

Your prob right about the swtiching between on and off line mode, but if you dont have the net then it will never be an issue, it cannot quie updates if it does not know they exist, and if you didnt have the net there would be no reason to ever switch to online mode, if you come under neither of those brackets you should never really have a problem, steam updates on the best part are very quick because they have fantastic servers. There is the chance it might not work first time, much like an FM patch, or windows update, but thats software really.

[Keyzer Soze]

I agree. Number 4 on the troubleshooting list https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...1456-EUDN-2493 is very interesting when you consider what programs might interfere with Steam. https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...9828-SFLZ-9289

going trough that list.... it would be simpler do make a list of programs that had no problem with steam!

[aaron70]

I was going say you can buy paradox games through steam, seems like the worlds best game company is conspiring with the devil


(joke)

I

know it was a joke...but Paradox give options. Steam is not the devil here.

[Eugene Tyson]

I can fully accept that, but posting that steam requires you to re-connect after 30 days is miles off the mark, and does nothing buy scare people, its simply not the case at all.
We should surely be using this thread to help people understand steam rather than pointing out any issues people have had with it constantly, like i said my windows has had to be re-installed twice in the past year but no one is saying i should ditch it.
Again this is happening guys, like it or not. We should use this thread to educate and help people not just bad mouth steam constantly.

I couldn't agree more.

[eddymunster]

Am I the only one that doesn't understand why someone who objects to third party software would then use a torrent client from a third party and entrust the security of their system to a hacked game?

I don't think there are many people that will get a pirated copy because of steam, they'll just do without. Very few people have suggested otherwise. I did in jest, which I clarified about 2 posts later.

What I am suggesting is that people who don't pay for the game will still find a way not to pay for it. It's just the way SI/SEGA seem to be representing Steam as some great method of combating piracy, when it isn't.

[kymsheba]

Don't they put tracking codes into the software? I know some softwares do. And it states that information such as computer, hardware, location etc. for possible false registration key will be transmitted to a website and they can then sort those by country and the amount of people.

Of course that is an estimate, as not everyone would be online.


But it's one possible way.

There is no way you can get an accurate number without physically checking every houshold in the world for pirated software, don't foget most people get an illegal copy then make copies for friends etc... so those people have never gone on the net to download a pirated version and not everyone has internet access.

cheers,
kymsheba

[Wakers]

I guess that'd be right Kriss, yes.

Regarding Paradox selling games on Steam - yes they do (its the only reason I've heard of them tbh), and the only thing of note they said was that DRM does not increase their sales. Regardless of whether or not they use Steam, that is what they said after doing their own research. That's the only issue I wanted to raise from reading what someone else posted about them earlier in the thread, it directly contradicts what Sega say. I'm more inclined to side with a company that has a decent reputation than Sega, which doesn't.

They use Steam because its the biggest digital distribution network going. If they don't have to pay for Steam's activation, then I guess they would use it anyway.

[Eugene Tyson]

For every lock that is made, there is someone that can pick that lock.

Same goes with piracy of software. The more sophisticated they make it, the more someone will want to and will crack it.


Which begs the question why they even bothered with this? People that want to pirate it will pirate it. And people that want to buy it will. And the people that don't want to buy it or pirate it won't.

I can't see it changing much.

[CaptainPlanet]

How do you quantify the unquantifiable? If SI released a version with no DRM at all, how would they know if their sales volumes were affected by that any more than the quality of the game itself?

[Eugene Tyson]

There is no way you can get an accurate number without physically checking every houshold in the world for pirated software, don't foget most people get an illegal copy then make copies for friends etc... so those people have never gone on the net to download a pirated version and not everyone has internet access.

cheers,
kymsheba

Pretty much the point I made. Thanks for rewriting it.

[greenone]

See this thread here stating that they sell more copies of their games on Steam then all the other sources. I haven't bought one of their games off Steam but I assume you have to run Steam to play them just like every other game on Steam. So they are more then happy to use Steam, they obviously feel that it is a form of DRM that offers paying customers extra value completely invalidating your arguement.

But you have the choice! I have numerous paradox games all lined up on a shelf next to all the previous editions of champ/football manager. The difference is that the paradox compilation will be added to because they treat me like an adult where as the champ/football manager compilation will go the same way as the total war one after they tried to force steam on me.

[kymsheba]

I don't think there are many people that will get a pirated copy because of steam, they'll just do without. Very few people have suggested otherwise. I did in jest, which I clarified about 2 posts later.

What I am suggesting is that people who don't pay for the game will still find a way not to pay for it. It's just the way SI/SEGA seem to be representing Steam as some great method of combating piracy, when it isn't.

i agree with you that is my biggest issue with SI/SEGA saying they done this as a way of combatting piracy which it is not.

cheers,
kymsheba

[Wakers]

I can fully accept that, but posting that steam requires you to re-connect after 30 days is miles off the mark, and does nothing buy scare people, its simply not the case at all.
We should surely be using this thread to help people understand steam rather than pointing out any issues people have had with it constantly, like i said my windows has had to be re-installed twice in the past year but no one is saying i should ditch it.
Again this is happening guys, like it or not. We should use this thread to educate and help people not just bad mouth steam constantly.

Your prob right about the swtiching between on and off line mode, but if you dont have the net then it will never be an issue, it cannot quie updates if it does not know they exist, and if you didnt have the net there would be no reason to ever switch to online mode, if you come under neither of those brackets you should never really have a problem, steam updates on the best part are very quick because they have fantastic servers. There is the chance it might not work first time, much like an FM patch, or windows update, but thats software really.

To be honest, I never said that it did that for certain, I said "apparently" which should be quite indicative that I was not certain, but had suspicions through my own use.

[CaptainPlanet]

Which begs the question why they even bothered with this? People that want to pirate it will pirate it. And people that want to buy it will. And the people that don't want to buy it or pirate it won't.

I can't see it changing much.

You can say that about any crime though, why constantly increase security at airports, if a terrorist wants to get on board with a bomb he'll make it happen. That doesn't mean anyone should give in and let the bad guys win.

[eddymunster]

You can say that about any crime though, why constantly increase security at airports, if a terrorist wants to get on board with a bomb he'll make it happen. That doesn't mean anyone should give in and let the bad guys win.

I honestly can't tell if you're being serious with this. Comparing piracy with terrorism is absolutely beyond ridiculous.

[CaptainPlanet]

i agree with you that is my biggest issue with SI/SEGA saying they done this as a way of combatting piracy which it is not.

cheers,
kymsheba

I honestly think there would be infinitely less unhappiness in this thread if SI/SEGA had just done a press release saying "we've gone with Steam to make us loads of money!" and left the piracy justification out.

[Wakers]

I really think they should bring back those "kit wheels" that they used in Premier Manager games for the Amiga

Or the great big manual that you had to use for Sid Meire's Grand Prix to find the right word.

[CaptainPlanet]

I honestly can't tell if you're being serious with this. Comparing piracy with terrorism is absolutely beyond ridiculous.

If someone wants to break in to a house to steal a laptop they'll do it, regardless of if there's a window in the way.

Happier now?

[Kriss]

i agree with you that is my biggest issue with SI/SEGA saying they done this as a way of combatting piracy which it is not.

cheers,
kymsheba

It's combating btw and mine was a typo if you read what Miles posted very carefully you'll see a distinction between combating piracy and preventing it.

[Wakers]

If someone wants to break in to a house to steal a laptop they'll do it, regardless of if there's a window in the way.

Happier now?

No, it's still a daft analogy. You're only not talking about cars because Kriss will make fun of you for it

[milnerpoint]

To be honest, I never said that it did that for certain, I said "apparently" which should be quite indicative that I was not certain, but had suspicions through my own use.

Well the way i read your post, and yes it prob is my mistake, was that you have experienced that steam needs to go online every 30 days, the fact you provided a number of days as well suggested you had information to that extent, now if i was a first time steam user, with no experience of the program and was worried about my net access that would have put me right off but the reality is its not true.
Like i say lets help people with steam especially first timers, because they are going to need it if they want to play FM12, spreading rumors or false facts are not helping this situation at all.

[Kriss]

I really think they should bring back those "kit wheels" that they used in Premier Manager games for the Amiga

Or the great big manual that you had to use for Sid Meire's Grand Prix to find the right word.

Railroad Tycoon 1 when you had to pick the right train from a picture got any train analogies btw?

[eddymunster]

If someone wants to break in to a house to steal a laptop they'll do it, regardless of if there's a window in the way.

Happier now?

Marginally. But the fear of getting caught is what will put people off, not making it marginally more difficult.

If you want to stop piracy people who do it need to be caught and prosecuted.

[milnerpoint]

I honestly can't tell if you're being serious with this. Comparing piracy with terrorism is absolutely beyond ridiculous.

we've had various car analogies, someone compared this to Tony Blair sending us to war, why the hell not compare it to terrorism???

[milnerpoint]

Or the great big manual that you had to use for Sid Meire's Grand Prix to find the right word.

god i remember that book!!!

[Wakers]

Well the way i read your post, and yes it prob is my mistake, was that you have experienced that steam needs to go online every 30 days, the fact you provided a number of days as well suggested you had information to that extent, now if i was a first time steam user, with no experience of the program and was worried about my net access that would have put me right off but the reality is its not true.
Like i say lets help people with steam especially first timers, because they are going to need it if they want to play FM12, spreading rumors or false facts are not helping this situation at all.

I agree with you, and I was probably wrong to put a number on it, it would have been better if I said something like "once a month or so" - because honestly, that's what seems to happen to me when I use offline mode (and granted, I don't use it that much, just the odd day or for an hour the odd day - which again probably doesn't help its stability.)

I certainly am making an effort to help others who have concerns with Steam in this thread.

[kymsheba]

It's combating btw and mine was a typo if you read what Miles posted very carefully you'll see a distinction between combating piracy and preventing it.

Well i was right some people really do need an education lol, look the word up on google and then please come back and tell me i spelt it wrong again ... oh please do that. I would love for you to come back and say it again lol.

cheers,
kymsheba

[Wakers]

Railroad Tycoon 1 when you had to pick the right train from a picture got any train analogies btw?

Piracy is like sending a train purposefully down the wrong track, just so you can have the track to yourself.

How's that?

[Kriss]

Marginally. But the fear of getting caught is what will put people off, not making it marginally more difficult.
If you want to stop piracy people who do it need to be caught and prosecuted.

A bit difficult when it's a government department in China

[Loversleaper]

we've had various car analogies, someone compared this to Tony Blair sending us to war, why the hell not compare it to terrorism???

Well, if you treat the people like animals they start to act like animals...