A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[Mojby]

Hi, Yes Steam will need to remain installed. However this offers great benefits such as top quality download speeds, automatic updates & achievements to track you progress

Great - i have to install 3rd party software to play a game I have bought legally - bleedin marvelous.

I have never used steam and now to play the new game i have to install it to register it - I know that i just have to set 'offline' to play but like so many people here - why should I be forced to install this just to play a computer game! This is a bad decision SEGA and will annoy so many people!

[Stonedroses]

Cheers.....bad news in my opinion steam has brought me nothing but problems but so goes it.

Yeah!

In my case it would be:

Cheers.....bad news in my opinion steam has brought me nothing but so goes it

[Mojby]

Great - i have to install 3rd party software to play a game I have bought legally - bleedin marvelous.

I have never used steam and now to play the new game i have to install it to register it - I know that i just have to set 'offline' to play but like so many people here - why should I be forced to install this just to play a computer game! This is a bad decision SEGA and will annoy so many people!

One other thing to add - after all the furore from past versions I cannot see why SEGA are still persisting down this route. It makes no sense and continues to irk so many people.

[The Welsh Lad]

Not that I want this debate to go on and on and on and on, around in circles, then on and on again. Its unfourtunate that in order for SEGA and SI to protect their product they feel that this is the best way in order to do it. SI and SEGA know that this will not totally eradicate piracy. They also sympathyise with those people who are going to encounter problems. This has now become on of the requirements to play the game, the same when graphics in the game improve the minimum spec increases and then people have to make a decision upgrade their graphic or not play. If this action just stops a small percentage in illegally obtaining the game then it is going in the right direction. Yes this has annoyed alot of people and SEGA and SI know this already becuase of the amount of posts in this thread.

There are other 3rd party software that you install to be able to play the game like DirectX, I know it is not has some people put it obtrusive because you don't see if. You still require it, like you now require Steam.

If piracy was never tackled then, many business' would be going under or Titles stop being made take EHM because the amount of people illegally obtaining it meant it wasn't making enough money to keep it going. Do you want to see that happen to FM, I know I don't, so if it means having another box in my launch tray so be it. I'd rather see that than not see the FM logo on my desktop.

Some people say its all about money, well yes it is in a way its business and its what makes the world go round. The more money SI make the bigger the budgets to go towards the development of FM, so we the customers will benefit from a better product. So I say get behind this and see where it can take FM to next.

[greenone]

I wish more devolpers would follow this:
http://www.paradoxplaza.com/theweste...he-drm-dilemma

[data6930]

That is an absolute disgrace they should be making that crystal clear!! What a shambles this is turning out to be, I dreaded the day SI got involved with SEGA they have taken away the importance of listening to the community on here, SI would never had done such things before they got involved with SEGA.

The very fact that the steam activation hasn't been mentioned on the SEGA pre-order page speaks volumes for SEGA.

SI you should insist that these details are added to the pre-order website. So many people are going to buy this game and get shafted once they realise they have to activate and run steam.

The relationship between SI and it's customers is getting worse by the minute.

So far there is no mention of 'Steam activation through the internet' on the FM12 pre-order page over at SEGA!

[data6930]

Funnily enough there is no mention of steam/activation on pre-order pages on Amazon or Play either!!!

[Lord Rowell]

Miles, much of what you have said in the posts you've made here has been commented on already, so I'm going to focus on some sections that I don't think have had enough attention.

There are people claiming on here that the reason for doing this is just to kill the second hand market. That's simply not true - it didn't even come into the conversation when discussing protection for this year. According to the licensing agreement for the game, whether you've read it or not, it's against the license to re-sell the game. As it is for the vast majority of PC games. The vast majority of retailers who deal in second hand games do not trade in PC games, whatever the protection is. And the replayability factor of FM is huge, so second hand isn't something that has affected us in a major way at all.

See, this is the kind of argument that rubs people up the wrong way from the start. You know perfectly well there is a 2nd hand market for games on car boot stalls, eBay and, yes, on the high street. I can tell you at least two stores in my town centre that sell used PC Games. Whether this market is strictly legal is, frankly, moot, in the eyes of most people here. To us, it is absurd that we can't sell on something we've purchased, that we don't actually own it. Now you may reply that is the law of the land, I would reply that it is frankly disgraceful that this law stands and it is disgraceful that you cite it as something reasonable in your supportive arguments of the Steam activation measure.

One big thing that was taken into account when looking at the various systems available was how many people, given the choice with FM11 of whether to install the game via Steam or without Steam, chose to install via Steam. The results surprised me, with the majority of people deciding to install through Steam.

To say this doesn't address the arguments being made. I'm sure you're right. It really isn't the point. As I've said elsewhere in this and the other (closed) thread, I don't have a problem, personally, with Steam. I've used it myself to download games. Its just that I have a massive problem being forced to use it and also that I can listen to the specific difficulties and issues that others have. So, for you to boast that the majority choose to install via Steam is neither here nor there as it doesn't recognise the needs or views of others. Of course, what those two sentences intend to do, IMO, is portray a situation whereby the complainants feel they are in an unworthy minority. You are playing politics, Miles.

There've been questions about what I think of the reaction, given that it's 17 pages so far. Well, obviously I'm disappointed when anyone says they aren't going to buy our next release, and I doubt there's anything that I'll be saying here that will appease those people. But the reality is that those being negative in the 17 pages are mainly the same people - about 50 in total. The negative reaction from a few people is very similar to that when Total War announced that they were going down this route. And when Civ went down this route. I'm sure both Creative Assembly and Firaxis were just as disappointed to be losing some long term customers as I am - but that doesn't change the decision that has been made, nor change my belief that from the options we had, it's the best one for all.

Again, you're playing politics, trying to spin this so that it sounds like a vocal minority who are making lots of noise and drowning out the majority. Fact is now that its 24 pages and growing. The whole language you use is belittling, "those being negative", "the same people", "a few people" and so on. It is very disappointing that you are trying to dismiss the views of your online community in this fashion. Whether its 50, 100, 150, 200 and so on, this is your community and the objections here are being raised by the majority of the community participating in this discussion. Dismiss us at your peril, as I will comment later.

People have also asked "what about those who don't have an internet connection". When we had activation for FM2009 which was done both online and via telephone, less than 4% of people, globally, chose to use the telephone route. Some of these people had a net connection, but didn't want to authenticate that way (as per the huge threads at that time). So, again whilst it's disappointing that some people genuinely don't have a net connection and might miss out, this was taken into account with the overall decision, [b[and there wasn't an option presented to me by SEGA this year that didn't involve purely online activation.[/b]

Did you ask for one? Did you stand your ground? Or have SI gotten so deep under the duvet with SEGA that they have no power to negotiate for their customers?

There has also been talk about other PC titles on here that will get your money instead. I've seen the following being mentioned so far (apologies if I've missed any) - Call of Duty, Battlefield, Fifa Manager, FIFA, Batman & Rage. Battlefield, FIFA Manager & FIFA on PC will all require EA's online system, called Origin, and for you to register with them. Rage is Steamworks, as we are. Call of Duty uses Activision's new online system. I do not know about Batman's authentication method, or whether it has one.

Vast majority of posts and posters in opposition to this haven't said this at all. But, a common theme I've seen here is "this is the way its going" kind of thing. Whether it is going this way isn't really the moral issue. The moral issue is, is it right? Just because other companies are doing it doesn't morally legitimise SI/SEGA.

You've asked how we're letting people know about this. Well, apart from the forum thread, there was a mailshot on Friday to hundreds of thousands of our registered customers to let them know about it, as well as telling them about the blogs and the release date. Since then, pre-orders have gone up massively with our pre-order position at Amazon in the UK (for example) going up from the mid 20's into the top 10, peaking at 5 and currently at 7, which is way higher than we normally are at this time of year. There will also be, front of pack in between the SI logo and the age rating, in big letters, the words "requires internet connection to activate", which was insisted upon by me for us to be able to go ahead with this. I will be chasing SEGA first thing on Monday to ensure that all retailers who have packshots online switch to the final packshot, rather than the one they are currently using.

Spin spin spin about how well you're doing. Has no real purpose in terms of this discussion, except to try and paint the objectors into the naughty corner. As for your insistence on "requires internet connection to activate", well many congratulations on insisting on something that the ASA would surely have pulled SI/SEGA up on anyway. Really, you don't deserve any credit for this but you're trying to take credit as though you were some champion of the consumer!

I'll continue to read this thread, but I won't be posting again because, as predicted by others, it's just the same arguments going round and round, with the same people making them. I'll leave SEGA to answer the other points.

As I've already stated, I'm very disappointed that some of you are saying you won't be playing the game this year because you don't want to use Steam. That is, of course, your choice as a consumer, and one we have to live with based on the decisions made.

Very disappointed you're not going to participate further in this. You're the figurehead of SI, the main man that people associate FM with nowadays (Collyer brothers aside). You're the man who did "The Miles Files", "The Che Guevara stuff", the podcasts, the blogs, the YouTube videos. You are the front man when it comes to selling us the latest version of the game and yet, you decide, its ok to just walk away from your angry online community because you find the arguments repetitious and boring. What you should be doing is taking note, and going back to SEGA to sort this out.

Yes, not to buy FM12 is my choice as a consumer, the same choice that many are making here. Some have commented that this is the loss of a handful of sales but I think it is much more than that.

Your online community, whether active or passive, contributes a large portion of.

- add-ons to the FM series
- Tactics and Training guides
- Ideas, very important this one. As has been said here by moderators / staff, most of the new ideas for future incarnations of FM come from your community
- Your database, alongside the match engine the biggest asset of the game. Researched by volunteers

I think you've lost an awful lot of goodwill with this Steam activation decision. You're not just going to lose sales, you're at risk of losing all the other stuff that makes FM a great game, a fans game. I think you've lost sight of how important your fans are in providing you with the free goodwilll that you need.

As I said earlier, dismiss us at your peril.

Very, very disappointed, in YOU, Miles.

[themadsheep2001]

I think its far too early to say he's lost a lot of goodwill. Lets actually see what happens with the rollout before starting to make any conclusions

[Jibby123]

ah google, it can be your friend,

http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html

http://forums.steamgames.com/forums/...1657227&page=2

basically yes steam collects when your offline, and yes it send this when you go back online.

That's freaking disgusting.

"that's the way it is online these days" doesn't cut it. Bill Hicks on suits in marketing nailed it. Worthless leeches.

[The Welsh Lad]

I think its far too early to say he's lost a lot of goodwill. Lets actually see what happens with the rollout before starting to make any conclusions

Same here.

[Kriss]

Whole walls of text won't change anything, for FM12 it's steam or nothing, after that depends on the results of this year.

I can't help being amazed at the rhetoric though, you'd think they'd reintroduced slavery and declared war on the Amazonian Indians, it's a bloody game for Christ's sake

[MeekoHFC]

lol Kriss this thread is starting to quiet down now. I wonder how many of the 'I wont buy FM12' will be praising the blog today

I won't be buying FM12 and thought the blog was ****.

[Kriss]

I won't be buying FM12 and thought the blog was ****.

That's your choice of course but I doubt you'll be raising questions in parliament about it or setting up on Hyde Park Corner, your attitude is the correct one, "don't like the conditions so won't buy it"

Hopefully you'll change your mind but I'd tend to agree that the blogs won't be a deciding factor

[zandor]

Great Post

[mantralux]

Whole walls of text won't change anything

So people who aren't happy with the decision should just stay quiet then?

[themadsheep2001]

So people who aren't happy with the decision should just stay quiet then?

the same points have been made by the same people on both sides. Repeatedly. It's still not going to change anything for FM12, and its the outcome of the rollout for FM12 that will have the biggest impact on any future releases. Just treading the same tired ground otherwise

[MeekoHFC]

lol Kriss this thread is starting to quiet down now. I wonder how many of the 'I wont buy FM12' will be praising the blog today

That's your choice of course but I doubt you'll be raising questions in parliament about it or setting up on Hyde Park Corner, your attitude is the correct one, "don't like the conditions so won't buy it"

Hopefully you'll change your mind but I'd tend to agree that the blogs won't be a deciding factor

The blogs didn't decide whether I would purchase the game or not, forcing Steam down my PC's throat was the nail in the coffin for me. Infact, I don't think I've played a game on FM since about January anyway. I would have bought this game regardless just out of habit, but FM lost the fun factor a long time ago. Forcing Steam on me has just tipped me over the edge and I won't be touching or buying an FM again till that's gone at least.

[themadsheep2001]

Whole walls of text won't change anything, for FM12 it's steam or nothing, after that depends on the results of this year.

I can't help being amazed at the rhetoric though, you'd think they'd reintroduced slavery and declared war on the Amazonian Indians, it's a bloody game for Christ's sake

Its much more than that, for many its a way of life

[Kriss]

So people who aren't happy with the decision should just stay quiet then?

Nope, but you just managed to say it in about five words it doesn't need whole essays and as nothing said here will change it for FM12 it's just becoming a thread for people to show off their debating skills.

The time to make representations is after release if it turns out to be a massive failure I'd think, although if that is the case I doubt it'll need representations.

[Kriss]

Its much more than that, for many its a way of life

Sure is, but nothing has happened to stop me playing it and the price is still the same it was two years ago, my glass is half full

[wwfan]

Ford decide to sell cars in just one colour.... Pink. How would that affect sales? Ford have every right to do it, but is it smart to do it?

For those who know their industrial history, worst car analogy EVER!

My own take is that SI are stuck between a rock and a hard place, with two opposing logics at work.

Firstly, we have the logic that one must look after their existing customers ahead of chasing new ones. Historically, organisations that have done the latter suffer as the former exits, feeling unappreciated and taken for granted. For anyone subscribing to this logic, the decision to use Steam is a huge betrayal of trust. From this logic, no other argument is valid. And understandably so.

Secondly, we have the logic that an organisation has the right to protect its copyright. In my brief foray through literature on piracy, and in claims from SI, it wouldn't be hugely fanciful to suggest that over a million FMs are distributed through pirate channels every year. Now, while it is certainly true that many of those pirating FM wouldn't buy it otherwise and it is not a lost sale, some surely would. If releasing purely through Steam results in 10-20% of standard pirate numbers purchasing the game, it is a huge win for SI and SEGA. I don't think it is fair of anyone to deny them their right to ensure they are legitimately rewarded for their creativity and hard work. If they do successfully achieve a cut in piracy through this activation method, again it is a position I don't think any of us can legitimately argue against.

Wrapping all this us is the Ford issue. The notion of consumer choice is almost completely a late-modern phenomenon, brought about by the invasive marketing those protecting the right to choose so stand against. Historically, you only had one or two products to choose between. The Model T was so successful simply because it was the only affordable mass produced car on the market. Nowadays, we are constantly inundated with so many options to buy many things we don't want or need. For this to remain a part of our culture, we have to be trained to to think choice is liberating, not constraining.

SI's using Steam as a unique activation method is no different from earlier organisations, or even contemporary ones with limited opportunities, from using a delivery method that best suits their product. Having said that, because there are alternative solutions, it behooves SI to prepare as fully as possible to facilitate problematic install issues through Steam. Customers reporting a history of technical problems need to be assured that SI has their back and will do their utmost to fix these issues, as not doing so contravenes logic one and is indefensible. SI should have a deal in position with Steam that enables the mutual support of these issues in the early months after release.

What remains, then, is the paranoia of those feeling they are being tracked and watched through Steam. Unfortunately, this is a by-product of the world of choice the very same people are defending. A society of consumerist choice and communication technology that doesn't track potential customers is oxymoronic. It is a journey we are committed to. Taking a stand against it by not playing your favourite game is pretty pointless as it only results in your enjoying life a little less than previously.

[nessi]

Great post Lord Rodwell, unfortunately that won't change anything.

we use words like "loyalty", we like to think of Miles Jacobson and people at SI like they're our personal friends, we have been keen to support them through the years not only buying their games but also giving feedback and spending time (which is even more valuable than money) to help them in various ways.

but at the end of the day Miles Jacobson and SI people are business men. I'm pretty sure their deal with steam is a marvellous piece of business for them, so can't really blame them. Unfortunately this means some of us (including lots of old customers) won't buy FM12. If I think about it rationally, it's actually unsurprising that mr Jacobson and SI don't care that much about this. Why should they?

Shame on me for feeling disappointed.

[milnerpoint]

Whole walls of text won't change anything, for FM12 it's steam or nothing, after that depends on the results of this year.

I can't help being amazed at the rhetoric though, you'd think they'd reintroduced slavery and declared war on the Amazonian Indians, it's a bloody game for Christ's sake

we've got it all in this thread, car analogies, essays, conspiricy theories, hang around im sure we will move onto how Miles is practically rimming everyones glass with this decision, you gotta love the GD forum

[themadsheep2001]

we've got it all in this thread, car analogies, essays, conspiricy theories, hang around im sure we will move onto how Miles is practically rimming everyones glass with this decision, you gotta love the GD forum

The analogies... so many analogies...

[magicmastermind124]

Your online community, whether active or passive, contributes a large portion of.

- add-ons to the FM series
- Tactics and Training guides
- Ideas, very important this one. As has been said here by moderators / staff, most of the new ideas for future incarnations of FM come from your community
- Your database, alongside the match engine the biggest asset of the game. Researched by volunteers

I think you've lost an awful lot of goodwill with this Steam activation decision. You're not just going to lose sales, you're at risk of losing all the other stuff that makes FM a great game, a fans game. I think you've lost sight of how important your fans are in providing you with the free goodwilll that you need.

I will say in reply to this statement that I do not believe for a second that anyone who provides content for FM in the community will be dodging FM while it is a requirement to activate by Steam. I will still be releasing content where possible and helping others with producing their content where it comes to using the Advanced Rules to create competitions (should this still be possible).

Those who release content for FM absolutely love the game, the need to activate the game via Steam is not going to stop them.

[b.paterson]

SI Board, Despite my objections to using STEAM I'm attempting to get my system FM12 ready and my issues with the service is that I can't even get the program to install and work properly, due my current living situation (rental/shared house) obtaining a personal broadband connection is not viable (the landlord won't allow them/it) I'm stuck using dial-up, I know STEAM does prefer broadband however if all services are done through steam this means all updates will take weeks to months to actually download and install. Also with my system using Windows 7 I can never get STEAM to start up, it always freezes/crashes with "Not Responding" so how do you activate a product when the program you are required to use won't work on my system, I understand the piracy issues however by only using STEAM activation does effect people living in shared/rental accommodation, plus if STEAM is unstable on other people's systems like it is on mine then you won't even get the game to start in the first place. Regards

[boppa]

. Make no mistake, if a quarter of the people that usually pirate the game switch to purchasing Football Manager 2012, the sales of the game worldwide would more than double. This would lead to increased development budgets and more benefits for all of you who do buy the game.

this is the absolute clincher

an amazing stat

those here who are whinging and carrying on really need to take a step into the real world and understand game pubishers and creaters need to protect their property and not have it freely available to thieves

its really not the end of the world to have to activate through steam. there is honestly no strong argument against it that i can see.

get over it. take your medicine and activate like everyone else. its not that hard and youre contributing to securing the long term futire of the game and hopefully this move ensures SI are able to invest plenty more into the game next year

[themadsheep2001]

SI Board, Despite my objections to using STEAM I'm attempting to get my system FM12 ready and my issues with the service is that I can't even get the program to install and work properly, due my current living situation (rental/shared house) obtaining a personal broadband connection is not viable (the landlord won't allow them/it) I'm stuck using dial-up, I know STEAM does prefer broadband however if all services are done through steam this means all updates will take weeks to months to actually download and install. Also with my system using Windows 7 I can never get STEAM to start up, it always freezes/crashes with "Not Responding" so how do you activate a product when the program you are required to use won't work on my system, I understand the piracy issues however by only using STEAM activation does effect people living in shared/rental accommodation, plus if STEAM is unstable on other people's systems like it is on mine then you won't even get the game to start in the first place. Regards

Can you give some details about your computer spec? and at what point exactly does steam stop responding?

[Brian Shanahan]

this is the absolute clincher

an amazing stat

those here who are whinging and carrying on really need to take a step into the real world and understand game pubishers and creaters need to protect their property and not have it freely available to thieves

its really not the end of the world to have to activate through steam. there is honestly no strong argument against it that i can see.

get over it. take your medicine and activate like everyone else. its not that hard and youre contributing to securing the long term futire of the game and hopefully this move ensures SI are able to invest plenty more into the game next year

Problem with that view though is, Steam will do absolutely nothing to stop the piracy. Steam is a tool for selling games, updating them, and collecting data off customers. As regards stopping piracy Steam is laughably hopeless, because it was never designed to stop it, nor has it's upgrades have ever changed this. Of course there is the other problem, that the developers are not willing to release any data which will either corroborate or refute the assertion (leaving aside the fact that the assertion that only 1/8 of players buy the game, something which I find ridiculous, like the various lying claims made by right wing politicians everywhere about "welfare scroungers" and "anchor babies"), and therefore this quotation you have used is absolutely meaningless, and should not even be used.

Frankly I think this move is a step down the Civ 5 line of setting up the game for the endless useless DLC route, while doing your best to alienate the fanbase and destroy the goodwill of any customers worth keeping. If I had the money to buy the game this year I'd be keeping it in my pocket on the strength of this announcement alone.

[boppa]

Problem with that view though is, Steam will do absolutely nothing to stop the piracy. Steam is a tool for selling games, updating them, and collecting data off customers. As regards stopping piracy Steam is laughably hopeless, because it was never designed to stop it, nor has it's upgrades have ever changed this.

so you are suggesting SEGA and steam cannot figure out how to protect their product via the activation method?

Of course there is the other problem, that the developers are not willing to release any data which will either corroborate or refute the assertion (leaving aside the fact that the assertion that only 1/8 of players buy the game, something which I find ridiculous, like the various lying claims made by right wing politicians everywhere about "welfare scroungers" and "anchor babies"), and therefore this quotation you have used is absolutely meaningless, and should not even be used.

they are not obliged to release anything to anyone

are you calling SEGA and david, liars? is this just part of the big evil right wing plot to stop theives stealing their game?

what are you suggesting is happening here?

Frankly I think this move is a step down the Civ 5 line of setting up the game for the endless useless DLC route, while doing your best to alienate the fanbase and destroy the goodwill of any customers worth keeping. If I had the money to buy the game this year I'd be keeping it in my pocket on the strength of this announcement alone.

oh theres the big conspiracy

so you cant afford to buy the game? what are you even whinging about then? seems to me your opinion is irrelevant

[b.paterson]

Can you give some details about your computer spec? and at what point exactly does steam stop responding?

I'm unsure how much information you require however the basic specs are - Windows 7 Ultimate (rating 4.9) - AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4200+ (2.2GHz) - 2.00 GB RAM - nVidia 7600GT Graphics Card. My system may be a little outdated, however due to lack of funds building a new system is out of the question. However when it comes to starting up STEAM it freezes/crashes within 30 seconds of attempting log in I enter my username and password, however the Windows 7 Not Responding/Error (Faded White Program) and I can't do anything but close the program and try again (which is basically wash, rinse and repeat). Regards

[themadsheep2001]

I'm unsure how much information you require however the basic specs are - Windows 7 Ultimate (rating 4.9) - AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4200+ (2.2GHz) - 2.00 GB RAM - nVidia 7600GT Graphics Card. My system may be a little outdated, however due to lack of funds building a new system is out of the question. However when it comes to starting up STEAM it freezes/crashes within 30 seconds of attempting log in I enter my username and password, however the Windows 7 Not Responding/Error (Faded White Program) and I can't do anything but close the program and try again (which is basically wash, rinse and repeat). Regards

Not too dissimilar to mine, and certainly more than equipped to run it. Are drivers and the such like upto date (Especially windows net framework)? I'd do a clean uninstall and reinstall first. Also some programs can interfere with Steam, name anti virus and the like, so check its been made an exception here's a link for a list of programs https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...9828-SFLZ-9289

[b.paterson]

Not too dissimilar to mine, and certainly more than equipped to run it. Are drivers and the such like upto date (Especially windows net framework)? I'd do a clean uninstall and reinstall first. Also some programs can interfere with Steam, name anti virus and the like, so check its been made an exception here's a link for a list of programs https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...9828-SFLZ-9289

I've gone through the list and I don't have anything installed on this system that interferes, however this is where it gets a little stupid you are always told to use anti-virus/internet security software to protect ourselves from fraud, STEAM is being used to prevent FM Fraud yet STEAM's solution is too eliminate anti-virus/internet security software from you computer smart thinking Sherlock (both by STEAM and SEGA) the program should be made to work with and not against protection systems.

I have logged this query with STEAM (since it was confirmed here, however no reply as of today).

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Not too dissimilar to mine, and certainly more than equipped to run it. Are drivers and the such like upto date (Especially windows net framework)? I'd do a clean uninstall and reinstall first. Also some programs can interfere with Steam, name anti virus and the like, so check its been made an exception here's a link for a list of programs https://support.steampowered.com/kb_...9828-SFLZ-9289

Interesting list, do you know if it is for both online and offline modes?

[boppa]

I've gone through the list and I don't have anything installed on this system that interferes, however this is where it gets a little stupid you are always told to use anti-virus/internet security software to protect ourselves from fraud, STEAM is being used to prevent FM Fraud yet STEAM's solution is too eliminate anti-virus/internet security software from you computer smart thinking Sherlock (both by STEAM and SEGA) the program should be made to work with and not against protection systems.

I have logged this query with STEAM (since it was confirmed here, however no reply as of today).

i would argue that protection systems should be made to work with legitimate software

[TRFC23]

I will say in reply to this statement that I do not believe for a second that anyone who provides content for FM in the community will be dodging FM while it is a requirement to activate by Steam. I will still be releasing content where possible and helping others with producing their content where it comes to using the Advanced Rules to create competitions (should this still be possible).

Those who release content for FM absolutely love the game, the need to activate the game via Steam is not going to stop them.

I release content for FM and this decision has put me off buying the game :/

[boppa]

I release content for FM and this decision has put me off buying the game :/

why does activation upset you so much?

can you understand why SI and SEGA have taken this route?

[NeilUK]

Get over it guys! The decision has been made, it's not changing, it's not life ending! It's a game, buy it and activate by steam or don't, your decision. Enough is enough

[b.paterson]

i would argue that protection systems should be made to work with legitimate software

You are correct however in this instance I can't even get STEAM to work on my system, my system specs meet the requirements set by STEAM however when I go to log into STEAM the program freezes/not responding (faded white screen) and closes automatically.

So I'm trying to get STEAM to work so if I continue playing the FM series and providing feedback to SI about Australia/A-League/Semi-Pro, Amateur Leagues, if the program required to register the program doesn't work how do I register FM12?

Get over it guys! The decision has been made, it's not changing, it's not life ending! It's a game, buy it and activate by steam or don't, your decision. Enough is enough

I do agree with this however I think if SI/SEGA provide a "Plan B" if STEAM doesn't work, the proposal by SEGA for a "Take it or leave it" system is not really a smart choice, just like if you find the perfect house, you win the auction however the actual asking price is 100,000 above what you can afford, if the seller doesn't budge you are not going to offer the funds just because this is your only option available, you would either negotiate a lower asking price or walk away.

Regards

[themadsheep2001]

I've gone through the list and I don't have anything installed on this system that interferes, however this is where it gets a little stupid you are always told to use anti-virus/internet security software to protect ourselves from fraud, STEAM is being used to prevent FM Fraud yet STEAM's solution is too eliminate anti-virus/internet security software from you computer smart thinking Sherlock (both by STEAM and SEGA) the program should be made to work with and not against protection systems.

I have logged this query with STEAM (since it was confirmed here, however no reply as of today).

I've never had to remove any antivirus, but i do set certain programs as exceptions if they need to connect online (i have an aggressive standing with my anti-virus/internet software.

But given your specs, its likely something is interfering becuase that should run it without any issues. Did you try an uninstall and reinstall?

[themadsheep2001]

Interesting list, do you know if it is for both online and offline modes?

Unsure. To be honest i only found this list because i was trying to help him out. Never had any issues myself with Steam. As long your as your anitvirus/internet security isnt viewing steam (or any ther program for that matter, its not a steam specific thing) as a threatening program its not an issue, but that depends on the settings of your security software

[boppa]

You are correct however in this instance I can't even get STEAM to work on my system, my system specs meet the requirements set by STEAM however when I go to log into STEAM the program freezes/not responding (faded white screen) and closes automatically.

thats one of the joys of windows based systems

it works fine for 99.9% of users

im not sure SI or SEGA should accont for the fraction of users who cant get the software to work

So I'm trying to get STEAM to work so if I continue playing the FM series and providing feedback to SI about Australia/A-League/Semi-Pro, Amateur Leagues, if the program required to register the program doesn't work how do I register FM12?

Regards

i understand your predicament

i would suggest contacting steam as your issue appears to be with their software

[themadsheep2001]

thats one of the joys of windows based systems

it works fine for 99.9% of users

im not sure SI or SEGA should accont for the fraction of users who cant get the software to work



i understand your predicament

i would suggest contacting steam as your issue appears to be with their software

SI and Sega should, and in fairness almost certainly will, provide as much help and support as they can. However its always difficult given the diverse nature of PC hardware and software

[boppa]

SI and Sega should, and in fairness almost certainly will, provide as much help and support as they can. However its always difficult given the diverse nature of PC hardware and software

agreed

however if a user is unable to get a simple thing like steam working, i would suggest its not a simple issue and is probably the result of a conflict in other software on the system

perhaps a fresh reboot is in order.

[NeilUK]

Steam is fine, it's never been a cause of any failure of any of my 40+ games, I do have crashes of course, Fallout 3 and New Vegas quit to windows often, too often! But never has Steam been the cause. I always have steam running and I simply don't notice it, except when occasionally a pop up occurs telling a game has been updated. However the point I made earlier is, once again, the decision is made. It's done! Its not changing and you are all wasting your time posting here, you aren't changing their minds, it's their decision to make, it's their business and whatever you guys think there isn't a conspirancy. SI want the most revenue possible, they want the most users possible, they aren't going to make a decision for any other reason that one that they feel protects their business.

But again, whether you agree with it or not it's not changing and it's time to move on, your point is made but enough!

[b.paterson]

I've never had to remove any antivirus, but i do set certain programs as exceptions if they need to connect online (i have an aggressive standing with my anti-virus/internet software.

But given your specs, its likely something is interfering becuase that should run it without any issues. Did you try an uninstall and reinstall?

I have multiple times, however as a dial-up user due to rental property it takes nearly 5 hours to re-download.

thats one of the joys of windows based systems

it works fine for 99.9% of users

im not sure SI or SEGA should accont for the fraction of users who cant get the software to work



i understand your predicament

i would suggest contacting steam as your issue appears to be with their software

True in regards to a Windows systems, however this is the only program I can't get to work however someone official from SI or SEGA should advise on the scenario of if STEAM doesn't work how does someone get FM12 to work, do they have a Plan B in mind (without gong into detail - to prevent piracy).

[boppa]

I have multiple times, however as a dial-up user due to rental property it takes nearly 5 hours to re-download.

cant you get broadband to your rental property in melbourne?

what about wireless broadband?

[Philbaby]

>There are people claiming on here that the reason for doing this is just to kill the second hand market.
Sorry Miles if you've gained that impression.
Certainly I have objections to Valve for their attitude to the selling on of played games, but not SI's.

>That's simply not true - it didn't even come into the conversation when discussing protection for this year. According to the licensing agreement for the game, whether you've read it or not, it's against the license to re-sell the game. As it is for the vast majority of PC games.

News to me mate ! Besides, what's the difference for PC Games, as opposed to books, furniture, used cars ?
Load of bollocks..you can't do that.
Also..when the new edition of FM arrives, for me, it's all over for the old one !
If I can flog it for a small amount..fine. Why not ? It's redundant once the latest one is out. Why should I pile up stuff that's redundant ? Flies in the face of eons of commercial reality. Why should games be treated as a protected species ??
C'est la vie mate.
>The vast majority of retailers who deal in second hand games do not trade in PC games.
Not in Oz, sunshine..except there is, obviously, a ban on any Steam connected games, which are hamstrung by Valve's Antediluvian attitudes.
Nevertheless..good luck to you SI geezers..

[Carmi88]

Very constructive post there phil. Although just because a new fm is out, does not mean everyone throws away the old one, plenty continue that game,

[Minez01]

After reading through this thread, I thought I'd offer an opinion of an impartial user. I'm buying FM12 this year, Steam or no Steam (barring technical difficulties).

(1) I thought the decision to activate via Steam only is generally poor. I've read other posts saying that Steam collects information, and this would be enough for me to boycott something if I felt it was necessary. I take personal data collection very seriously, and have various methods in place to protect things such as my bank account, credit card numbers etc. However I can definitely understand the attitude from those who don't like having their information collected.

(2) To those saying "put up or shut up" (or a similar argument): if users on here didn't voice their opinions, FM wouldn't be the way it is. This argument isn't simply whether person A purchases FM12, it is more about the forcing of customers to use (what some may describe as) invasive software to play it. Everyone should voice their opinion on what they believe in, and this goes for everything in our lives, not just some videogame. If you really believe we should all bow down to the world of big business without complaint, then there is something seriously wrong. But I think that the decision of one Si rep to now ignore any opinions voiced on here is rather poor, but generally (and I stress this word) indicative of how much respect businesses have for public communities who voice complaints. Namely, none.

(3) I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but I would have thought that more people would be likely to get a pirate copy of the game now that Steam has been confirmed as the only activation source. I am not an expert on piracy, however if Steam COULD be bypassed for general offline play (someone can help me out here) then I could see a lot of people going down that route rather than buying it and having Steam on thier comp permanently... just something to consider, maybe.

That's my two cents. I hope this thread makes it to 50 pages, I am enjoying reading the arguments made by everyone here. Discussion is good - opinions are powerful tools.

[Sebacid]

As pointed above, hackers ALWAYS find a way around copy protection issues.. If it's code you can code over it or around it. And WHEN the cracked version of FM2012 comes out it could be downloaded by angry and let down customers who would normally buy it from the store. I am totally against this but unfortunately it's the bloody raw truth! But thankfully (for those who make the profit from this game) most consumers are legimit, law-abiding and meek in accepting this and therefore I predict that FM2012 will sell more copies than ever this year and frankfully, that gives SI and SEGA all the right in the world to push this through. Money talks and it's the biggest factor making issue that companies have. All the rest is just patting heads and soothing words. So really there's no point in arguing over this because it is useless and a waste of time and effort and the only thing it does is raises your blood pressure... The decision has been made, it seems final and those who resist it can choose to not buy it. Unfortunately, the game WILL be hacked (they always are) and available for law-breaking, un-productive vagabonds who try to put a stick in the greedy wheels of financial profit seeking companies (that happen to employ thousands of people with families and mortgages to pay...) I will play the free demo and decide if the final product is worth buying or not. Fair and square.

[b.paterson]

cant you get broadband to your rental property in melbourne?

what about wireless broadband?

The issue relates to the rental agreement, due to the owners of the property being from a generation where the internet wasn't around they do not see the point of allowing it their property (we don't even have Pay TV for the same reason) however because of the amount of funds I have I can't afford to move anywhere that will allow it.

Also if you consider the mobile options you don't get any value for money, it is cheaper to use dial-up compared to 50.00 per month for 2GB data.

[boppa]

The issue relates to the rental agreement, due to the owners of the property being from a generation where the internet wasn't around they do not see the point of allowing it their property (we don't even have Pay TV for the same reason) however because of the amount of funds I have I can't afford to move anywhere that will allow it.

sending broadband internet through a phone line is no more obtrusive than dial up

there are no modifications to be made anywhere on the property. they wouldnt even know

and i would expect any challenge in the tenancy tribunal would result in a ruling in your favour.

if i were you i would just do it. if they crack the sh!ts tell them to take it up with the tribunal. tenants have rights

Also if you consider the mobile options you don't get any value for money, it is cheaper to use dial-up compared to 50.00 per month for 2GB data.

unwired does 25gb for $50. not too bad for wireless.. im sure other deals are comparable

[Matt_no_7]

For those who know their industrial history, worse car analogy EVER!

Does that mean i'm out of the competition for the best car anaology? Damn, i really wanted that pizza hut voucher!

[wwfan]

Does that mean i'm out of the competition for the best car anaology? Damn, i really wanted that pizza hut voucher!

Well, as the worst is also paradoxically the best, I think you've won the trip to Disneyland

Did make me laugh that you picked the one car company that made its fortune through only making cars in one colour.

[gmilitao]

Ok, the decision is set. We need to accept.

But, i hope that FM 2013 will have major changes. I think SI will be more money and resources to do this and it's time to make a big turnaround, work with all the FM Scene, making big features in all aspects of the game, not in one or another part of that, like previous versions.

Good luck in your decision, SI!

[krisco1978]

I think this is a shockingly bad move by SI! forcing people to download steam before they can play the game is a very narrow minded way of
approaching the problem of piracy and this in affect makes the end user a subscriber to the game instead of the owner. I can only hope that this means the cost of the game will become universal, as over here in Australia the game costs almost twice the amount it does in England and with the option to sell the game on when i'm finished with it now gone the Game is more expensive than ever!

[HUNT3R]

@ Miles

I've never used Steam. I've been put off by responses very similar to ones in this thread. That was the reason I didn't get Civ V. I avoid Steam, Origin etc at all costs. I buy all my games on console now because there are no hassles with having to register my games just to play.

With FM, I don't have that option of buying it on console. So I am thinking of giving Steam a chance and to judge for myself how good or bad it is.

One thing you guys HAVE to do is write a blog specifically about Steam. So that all of us can see what it's all about, what you need to do, what happens when your connection drops etc etc.


One last thing. Hopefully you or any other forumer with Steam experience can answer. I know you said that because the game will run through Steam this year, the only way to patch is through Steam. I don't have internet at work or at home. The best I can do is connect my pc by using my phone as a modem. My connection isn't that stable. So what I did in the past is use programs to download patches where I am able to pause the download and when my connection is restored, I un-pause and my download resumes. Does Steam have something like this? Thanks in advance for any responses.

[Kriss]

@ Miles

I've never used Steam. I've been put off by responses very similar to ones in this thread. That was the reason I didn't get Civ V. I avoid Steam, Origin etc at all costs. I buy all my games on console now because there are no hassles with having to register my games just to play.

With FM, I don't have that option of buying it on console. So I am thinking of giving Steam a chance and to judge for myself how good or bad it is.

One thing you guys HAVE to do is write a blog specifically about Steam. So that all of us can see what it's all about, what you need to do, what happens when your connection drops etc etc.


One last thing. Hopefully you or any other forumer with Steam experience can answer. I know you said that because the game will run through Steam this year, the only way to patch is through Steam. I don't have internet at work or at home. The best I can do is connect my pc by using my phone as a modem. My connection isn't that stable. So what I did in the past is use programs to download patches where I am able to pause the download and when my connection is restored, I un-pause and my download resumes. Does Steam have something like this? Thanks in advance for any responses.

You can pause any Steam download at any time and resume it also at any time, if you lose your connection it acts as a pause and when you recover your connection you then click once to resume if it doesn't resume automatically.

A Steam thread is planned but you can head to their forums or help pages anytime and there's a wealth of information, because FM is late on the scene in this regard they've already been through the hoops with other big games, so I doubt FM users will come across a problem that isn't already documented somewhere there.

[Kriss]

I think this is a shockingly bad move by SI! forcing people to download steam before they can play the game is a very narrow minded way of
approaching the problem of piracy and this in affect makes the end user a subscriber to the game instead of the owner. I can only hope that this means the cost of the game will become universal, as over here in Australia the game costs almost twice the amount it does in England and with the option to sell the game on when i'm finished with it now gone the Game is more expensive than ever!

You obviously haven't seen this thread http://community.sigames.com/showthr...e-in-Australia

[BuryBlade]

Miles, much of what you have said in the posts you've made here has been commented on already, so I'm going to focus on some sections that I don't think have had enough attention.



See, this is the kind of argument that rubs people up the wrong way from the start. You know perfectly well there is a 2nd hand market for games on car boot stalls, eBay and, yes, on the high street. I can tell you at least two stores in my town centre that sell used PC Games. Whether this market is strictly legal is, frankly, moot, in the eyes of most people here. To us, it is absurd that we can't sell on something we've purchased, that we don't actually own it. Now you may reply that is the law of the land, I would reply that it is frankly disgraceful that this law stands and it is disgraceful that you cite it as something reasonable in your supportive arguments of the Steam activation measure.



To say this doesn't address the arguments being made. I'm sure you're right. It really isn't the point. As I've said elsewhere in this and the other (closed) thread, I don't have a problem, personally, with Steam. I've used it myself to download games. Its just that I have a massive problem being forced to use it and also that I can listen to the specific difficulties and issues that others have. So, for you to boast that the majority choose to install via Steam is neither here nor there as it doesn't recognise the needs or views of others. Of course, what those two sentences intend to do, IMO, is portray a situation whereby the complainants feel they are in an unworthy minority. You are playing politics, Miles.



Again, you're playing politics, trying to spin this so that it sounds like a vocal minority who are making lots of noise and drowning out the majority. Fact is now that its 24 pages and growing. The whole language you use is belittling, "those being negative", "the same people", "a few people" and so on. It is very disappointing that you are trying to dismiss the views of your online community in this fashion. Whether its 50, 100, 150, 200 and so on, this is your community and the objections here are being raised by the majority of the community participating in this discussion. Dismiss us at your peril, as I will comment later.



Did you ask for one? Did you stand your ground? Or have SI gotten so deep under the duvet with SEGA that they have no power to negotiate for their customers?



Vast majority of posts and posters in opposition to this haven't said this at all. But, a common theme I've seen here is "this is the way its going" kind of thing. Whether it is going this way isn't really the moral issue. The moral issue is, is it right? Just because other companies are doing it doesn't morally legitimise SI/SEGA.



Spin spin spin about how well you're doing. Has no real purpose in terms of this discussion, except to try and paint the objectors into the naughty corner. As for your insistence on "requires internet connection to activate", well many congratulations on insisting on something that the ASA would surely have pulled SI/SEGA up on anyway. Really, you don't deserve any credit for this but you're trying to take credit as though you were some champion of the consumer!



Very disappointed you're not going to participate further in this. You're the figurehead of SI, the main man that people associate FM with nowadays (Collyer brothers aside). You're the man who did "The Miles Files", "The Che Guevara stuff", the podcasts, the blogs, the YouTube videos. You are the front man when it comes to selling us the latest version of the game and yet, you decide, its ok to just walk away from your angry online community because you find the arguments repetitious and boring. What you should be doing is taking note, and going back to SEGA to sort this out.

Yes, not to buy FM12 is my choice as a consumer, the same choice that many are making here. Some have commented that this is the loss of a handful of sales but I think it is much more than that.

Your online community, whether active or passive, contributes a large portion of.

- add-ons to the FM series
- Tactics and Training guides
- Ideas, very important this one. As has been said here by moderators / staff, most of the new ideas for future incarnations of FM come from your community
- Your database, alongside the match engine the biggest asset of the game. Researched by volunteers

I think you've lost an awful lot of goodwill with this Steam activation decision. You're not just going to lose sales, you're at risk of losing all the other stuff that makes FM a great game, a fans game. I think you've lost sight of how important your fans are in providing you with the free goodwilll that you need.

As I said earlier, dismiss us at your peril.

Very, very disappointed, in YOU, Miles.

Great post, very well written and I very much agree with what you have said.

Just give this a bump, hopefully it will be noticed and responded to, though I doubt it very much.

[RowRow78]

Quite amusing....as much as I hate this idea of using Steam, I thought I may as well suck it up because I love the game so much....installed Steam...went to create an account and bam...

And so it begins.......

[Keyzer Soze]

Loyalty is a two way street!

I can not help but laugh when I see people come here and accuse Miles and SI of a lack of loyalty, when these same people are the first to stop buying the game just because the steam was introduced! Do not think it's a bit ironic?

I honestly pains me to understand that this issue is so important to the people! It's a game ... a simple game!

Okay, it's the best game in the world! Okay, it's the only game I play ... but it's still a game! If you react like that today, what will happen the day SI announce that they will fail to launch the game? Kill yourselves?

I honestly pains me to understand that this issue is so important to the people! It's a game ... a simple game!

Okay, it's the best game in the world! Okay, it's the only game I play ... but it's still a game! If you react like that today, what will happen the day they announce that the SI will fail to launch the game? Kill themselves?

The excellent relationship that the SI has promoted with people who play their game, get people to feel that they have "rights" to something that does not actually have! SI makes the game, the game is theirs, they decide how to do things ... not you!

It's like (and thank you very much for the Analogies Awar 2011), you go to buy some oranges! You look at them, but you dont like them! What do you do? dont buy the oranges? Oh no no Mr. Keyzer! If i dont like the oranges i'll start a 5 hour conversation with the farmer about all the new methods he could implement in order to plant better oranges!

[Barside]

Well, as the worst is also paradoxically the best, I think you've won the trip to Disneyland

Did make me laugh that you picked the one car company that made its fortune through only making cars in one colour.

Just a shame that the 'any colour so long as it's black' is a myth.

[hugo_rune]

agreed

however if a user is unable to get a simple thing like steam working, i would suggest its not a simple issue and is probably the result of a conflict in other software on the system

perhaps a fresh reboot is in order.

Or a reinstall of windows, in the most extreme cases. Corrupt DLLs (because of viruses, trojan horses, or whatever) can break a system in all kinds of ways, sometimes not always obvious, and cause differing kinds of software to not work. The first instinct of many users is to blame the software, and they may get agitated when the software vendor is unable to assist them correcting their damaged files in their \WINDOWS\SYSTEM32 directory.

[RowRow78]

Or a reinstall of windows, in the most extreme cases. Corrupt DLLs (because of viruses, trojan horses, or whatever) can break a system in all kinds of ways, sometimes not always obvious, and cause differing kinds of software to not work. The first instinct of many users is to blame the software, and they may get agitated when the software vendor is unable to assist them correcting their damaged files in their \WINDOWS\SYSTEM32 directory.

Yeah, I'm a Mac user btw, but I did manage to get it working in the end, just thought it funny, the very first time I tried to use it, it crashes!

[Super Bladesman]

Seeing as how so many fallacies have been spoken about Steam, let's have some facts eh?

Specifically:

Can I use multiple Steam accounts on one computer? Yes, you can access different Steam accounts from one computer. However, you may only access one account at a time.
The accounts will share the core files for any games the accounts have in common, but each account will maintain its own custom content and configuration files.

Can I use my Steam account on other computers? You may use your Steam account on any machine which can connect to the Steam network - Steam allows you to download and install any games registered to your account as soon as you log in.

Can multiple users play simultaneously on one Steam account? Steam does not support multiple players using one Steam account simultaneously - games associated with a Steam account are licensed for the sole use of the account holder.
If multiple users attempt to log in and play simultaneously with one Steam account, the user who logged in first will eventually receive an "Invalid Steam UserID Ticket" error message and be forced to log back in to continue playing (if the first user logs back in, the second user will receive this error message).

Presumably a few people are too busy bashing Steam's support to actually go and check Steam's support.

You can also find more on Steam account creation and management here. For those playing on more than one PC, there is a section on PC authorization here - essentially, the first time you log on to a new PC it will recognise this, send you an email with a code and you have to enter that code. In my experience, this email arrives immediately. It also means that if someone did somehow obtain your Steam account details, you'd get an email to let you know someone had tried to access it from a new PC...

There's also an error troubleshooting section here. There's no need for a Steam FAQ or anything - Steam bizarrely enough already provide this.

[FMtillidie]

me and my friend, put half each into the game, and he has it on steam and i have the disc verision, as i have to activate using steam will we not be able to do this?

[afced7]

Just a shame that the 'any colour so long as it's black' is a myth.

There is quite a lot of truth in it. The model T was available in several colours for the first few years of manufacture, but became available only in black from 1913 until 1927 when Ford stopped making it.

[Super Bladesman]

me and my friend, put half each into the game, and he has it on steam and i have the disc verision, as i have to activate using steam will we not be able to do this?

No. The licence didn't allow you to do that before, to be fair.

[milnerpoint]

me and my friend, put half each into the game, and he has it on steam and i have the disc verision, as i have to activate using steam will we not be able to do this?

If he has installed it through steam then no you wont be able to use it, unless you sign in using his steam details and dont try and play at the same time as him.

[Mons]

If he has installed it through steam then no you wont be able to use it, unless you sign in using his steam details and dont try and play at the same time as him.

How will Steam be able to tell should his system be offline however?

[FMtillidie]

oh okay

[CaptainPlanet]

I love that the major complaint from people is the principle in having to install third party software. It doesn't actually affect their ability to play or enjoy the game, some probably already use Steam, but it's the principle of the matter and the justification of why it's done that so many are unhappy about. The end result is still the same.

[elland road boo boys]

Cannot see why all the complaints about Steam

Have been using it for several FM's & other games without any probs

[milnerpoint]

How will Steam be able to tell should his system be offline however?

All the info on this is on the steam FAQ, i dont really want to go into details on how to trick the system i'm afraid.

[Brian Shanahan]

so you are suggesting SEGA and steam cannot figure out how to protect their product via the activation method?

Why I do think I am. The fact of the matter is that Steam is not, nor never has been, about preventing piracy. It is about selling PC games digitally, and gathering data from those sales to better sell you more games in the future (the second bit exactly like a Tesco clubcard). Perfectly legitimate model, and nothing wrong with using it if it works, but forcing people down that route is a different matter and bad business practice, especially in an industry as dependant on goodwill as gaming.

they are not obliged to release anything to anyone
are you calling SEGA and david, liars? is this just part of the big evil right wing plot to stop theives stealing their game?

As regards the first bit, healthy scepticism demands that we disregard any quantatative argument which does not supply us with any backing figures or proof, kind of like we disregard the crack-pot arguements for the existence of the Spagetthi Flying Monster.
As to your second point, a) I am always wary of marketing-speak, marketing being an industry who's goal is to sell believable lies, and b) tying in with the last sentence, they are giving me no reason to believe them, and reason to disbelieve them, my view of their truthfulness in this issue is valid until I see some sort of data which at least corroborates their arguement.

so you cant afford to buy the game? what are you even whinging about then? seems to me your opinion is irrelevant

You know it is this kind of attitude that will drive away your friends and loved ones. So just because you don't like my arguement you dismiss it as being irrelevant (despite it being thought out, and pretty logical {it may be wrong, but with the paucity of information my view is far more likely to be right}), using the fact that I am being truthful in saying that I can't currently afford the game as a fig leaf to dismiss me, despite nothing I have said being affected by my current poverty.

[milnerpoint]

"Industry dependent on goodwill"

Care to expand on that at all? Surely its an industry dependent on making money, goodwill is a bonus but nothing else,

[Kriss]

If you read Miles statement properly you'll see he doesn't claim this will prevent the game being cracked, it will delay that and the longer it's delayed the better the bottom line.

He also explained why they can't give figures to support their case, basically it's against corporate law for a member of a listed company to make any statement which may affect the share price drastically, whether some stats would actually do that is irelevant, they just aren't going to risk it.

Also understandably they don't want to give any info which may assist, encourage or inform the hackers of their effectiveness, don't forget that many of these low lifes only do it because they can and get off on the publicity they cause, so saying nothing at least restricts their jerk off in public opportunities.

[Richard76]

Cannot see why all the complaints about Steam

Have been using it for several FM's & other games without any probs

I'm sure Steam is great.

I think the issue is, being forced to use a totally unnecessary program to play FM12.

[CaptainPlanet]

I'm sure Steam is great.

I think the issue is, being forced to use a totally unnecessary program to play FM12.

Many people (myself included) don't understand why that is an issue. Like I said above, people complaining about the principle of the thing when it doesn't change their game experience.

[Kriss]

I'm sure Steam is great.

I think the issue is, being forced to use a totally unnecessary program to play FM12.

It's now necessary because they've decided it's the best current option, if they didn't do this they'd have to try something else, and after FM09 I have to say that for me the Steam option is positively pain free.

[kymsheba]

You've always needed two games. The license for a game only covers one person.

actually you are wrong it does not cover only one person it covers one copy being played but my entire household can play the game on the same computer, so you have that totally wrong, it covers one installation not one person.

and going to steam is not going to stop it being pirated, like others have stated latest games released today are being pirated the same day they are released, so if this is the only reason they have gone to steam they need to rethink that idea. By the way i have already paid for my copy (pre-ordered on steam) but i really dont like using steam. And games don't always get patched straight away either.

So even though i have bought my pre-ordered copy on steam i am still not happy with this solution as with any other game that forces you to use steam. There is no way of beating piracy as there is always someone smarter who can get around any measure a company takes, a sad situation but i believe if you build up a good supporter base most fans will buy the game i for one am one of those i will always buy an original so there are a lot of loyal fans and i do believe for future versions you should just go back to no protection as it will make no difference whatsoever to sales as there will always be pirated versions of games.

So trust us your loyal fans and go back to no protection and we will continue to buy your games.

cheers,
kymsheba

[Kriss]

It never had no protection, it just had different sorts, most of which caused more problems than Steam will.

[milnerpoint]

Christ now we have the people who use steam complaining they have to use steam?!?!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

So trust us your loyal fans and go back to no protection and we will continue to buy your games.

That is the most amusing post in this thread so far, its only taken 25 pages!!

[CaptainPlanet]

Even CM93 had protection!

[Loversleaper]

Many people (myself included) don't understand why that is an issue. Like I said above, people complaining about the principle of the thing when it doesn't change their game experience.

I don't either, but then again - I have internet connection at hand when ever I want and don't own a stationary computer...

[eddymunster]

this is the absolute clincher

an amazing stat

those here who are whinging and carrying on really need to take a step into the real world and understand game pubishers and creaters need to protect their property and not have it freely available to thieves

its really not the end of the world to have to activate through steam. there is honestly no strong argument against it that i can see.

get over it. take your medicine and activate like everyone else. its not that hard and youre contributing to securing the long term futire of the game and hopefully this move ensures SI are able to invest plenty more into the game next year

No it's not the clincher at all, for the following reasons;

1. Steam won't stop people getting pirate copies of FM.
2. It will probably not even make it much harder to get a pirated copy.
3. It would really surprise me if 25% of people that usually get an illegal copy would buy a legitimate one anyway, even if there was no way of getting a pirated version at all, so that point is irrelevant.
4. Is there really 4 times as many people playing pirate versions of FM2011 than paying for it? Really? I'd like to see where this figure comes from, how can you really estimate how many people play the game without paying for it. I mean not how many times an illegal version is downloaded, actually how many players.

In terms of a strong argument against, the fact that it must be used in conjunction with 3rd party software that monitors your gaming activity, when there are other ways of doing an online registration.

And finally, what is the strong argument for Steam, over any other online registry system? I will download steam because I want to play FM, but I'm not overly pleased by it.

[MBarbaric]

I have one practical question regarding this.

While I am a bit afraid of this decision by SI I dont want to panick so I came here for an advice. I am playing this game very long time and last year I had to move and live in another country. The situation here is that I dont find reasonable to get myself internet connection at home as I use notebook for internet. Though, it is work computer that i cant use for playing games.

Is there any way I could register the game with notebook and play the game on desktop ?

[milnerpoint]

No i dont think so, the computer you are using will have to be connected to the net once, to activate the game, after that it would never have to be online again.
you could network your netbook to your FM computer and share an internet connection, if they both use the same windows it is very easy to set up.

[greenone]

That is the most amusing post in this thread so far, its only taken 25 pages!!

Works for paradox interactive

[Boot442]

A few comments (sorry if covered before, I only read several hundred posts .

1) SI/SEGA save money by not having to press, package & distribute actual product

2) Steam add to their client base, many of whom (even the skeptical ones) will purchase further games through steam once they have an account

3) Whether we like it or not this is the next phase in gaming, in 5-10 years time when the majority of potential buyers have high speed internet and unlimited downloads it will probably be direct download only.

4) This is part on an industry-wide movement in publishing from 'software as product' to 'software as service' - hence the lack of resale capacity

PS I have used steam for a couple of years with no significant problems an a mobile broadband connection.

[aaron70]

I wish more devolpers would follow this:
http://www.paradoxplaza.com/theweste...he-drm-dilemma

Just want to say thank you for posting this. I notice nobody made a comment on it even though it really supports the "no steam" argument.

I admire Paradox as a company and you can see what they want to do. They want to win customers over and support people who play the game.
"We don't believe pirates are worth our energy, time and passion. Instead we choose to focus on our paying customers by offering them extra services"
They are gaining strong loyalty because they treat people with respect. Sega, on the other hand, are doing what big companies do; bully consumers into acceptance because they focus on being reactive to pirates instead of proactive to their consumers.

As Paradox state clearly:
DRM is quite costly
Most DRM offers no extra value to paying customers
DRM causes a lot of extra support
There is no evidence that DRM actually increases our sales numbers

The best argument against the measures being introduced by Sega without a doubt. Big applause to Paradox (I love Vickie II by the way)
This is a company with a long gaming history. Surely what they say must be respected.

[MBarbaric]

No i dont think so, the computer you are using will have to be connected to the net once, to activate the game, after that it would never have to be online again.
you could network your netbook to your FM computer and share an internet connection, if they both use the same windows it is very easy to set up.

Thanks for advice, but this actually means I should buy an AC generator, buy oil, get my desktop outside, connect my notebook to internet, set up connection between it and desktop, log on to steam (will steam leave some trace on notebook?), register, unplugg everything, sell AC generator (with a bit oil left), and go back home to play the game.

On the serious side, this is plain stupid solution from my point of view. I do understand that I am in minority so SEGA doesnt care too much as not a lot of people will not buy the game for this reason, but im sure they have lost my buck and gave me some ideas.

[kymsheba]

It never had no protection, it just had different sorts, most of which caused more problems than Steam will.

oh come on you know what i meant, i like the idea of you must have the disc in the drive (there that will stop them lol what a joke that was) it would be easier to have no protection and not wasting time trying to get a solution to piracy as there is none all you are doing is wasting resources and time and effort in trying to think up ways of stopping piracy.

Steam will make no difference to loss of sales because of piracy as stated in first post. Did they honestly think people would buy that excuse please we have smarter brains than that. But you will probably lose fans because some people don't like being forced to use steam. And in fact you probably might lose sales and this will do more damage and loss of revenue because of making us use steam.

Also i think they have damaged their reputation a bit already by doing this.

I use steam because i HAVE TO do i like it NO, do i want it NO.

A big bad idea to go down this road and use that pitiful excuse because of protection against piracy STEAM is useless at preventing piracy as is every other method if someone wants to crack it they will, simple as that, save your resources and forget about protection for a game it is not going to work.

cheers,
kymsheba

[milnerpoint]

Thanks for advice, but this actually means I should buy an AC generator, buy oil, get my desktop outside, connect my notebook to internet, set up connection between it and desktop, log on to steam (will steam leave some trace on notebook?), register, unplugg everything, sell AC generator (with a bit oil left), and go back home to play the game.

On the serious side, this is plain stupid solution from my point of view. I do understand that I am in minority so SEGA doesnt care too much as not a lot of people will not buy the game for this reason, but im sure they have lost my buck and gave me some ideas.

Do you need to run a generator to use your netbook or your internet??

[kymsheba]

Just want to say thank you for posting this. I notice nobody made a comment on it even though it really supports the "no steam" argument.

I admire Paradox as a company and you can see what they want to do. They want to win customers over and support people who play the game.
"We don't believe pirates are worth our energy, time and passion. Instead we choose to focus on our paying customers by offering them extra services"
They are gaining strong loyalty because they treat people with respect. Sega, on the other hand, are doing what big companies do; bully consumers into acceptance because they focus on being reactive to pirates instead of proactive to their consumers.

As Paradox state clearly:
DRM is quite costly
Most DRM offers no extra value to paying customers
DRM causes a lot of extra support
There is no evidence that DRM actually increases our sales numbers

The best argument against the measures being introduced by Sega without a doubt. Big applause to Paradox (I love Vickie II by the way)
This is a company with a long gaming history. Surely what they say must be respected.

I think you are 100% accurate Paradox Interactive are my favourite company they have the right idea and i always buy their games especially hearts of iron series and they are the best, why more companies don't follow their lead is beyond me they probably have the most loyal fans and supporters in gaming history more companies need to look at their business model and follow suit.

cheers,
kymsheba

[CaptainPlanet]

oh come on you know what i meant, i like the idea of you must have the disc in the drive (there that will stop them lol what a joke that was) it would be easier to have no protection and not wasting time trying to get a solution to piracy as there is none all you are doing is wasting resources and time and effort in trying to think up ways of stopping piracy.

Steam will make no difference to loss of sales because of piracy as stated in first post. Did they honestly think people would buy that ecxcuse plese we have smarter brains than that. But you will probably lose fans because some people don't like being forced to use steam. And in fact you probably might lose sales and this will do more damage and loss of revenue becuase of making us use steam.

Also i think they have damaged their reputation a bit already by doing this.

I use steam because i HAVE TO do i like it NO, do i want it NO.

A big bad idea to go down this road and use that pitiful excuse because of protection against piracy STEAM is useless at preventing piracy as is every other method if someone wants to crack it they will, simple as that, save your resources and forget about protection for a game it is not going to work.

cheers,
kymsheba

How does having to install Steam negatively affect your FM playing experience? Are you able to purchase the game, install it, update it and play it successfully?

[Football_Manager08]

People need to just chill. It's a program.

Next people are going to be like OMGZ I HAVE TO USE WINDOWS TO PLAY FOOTBALL MANAGER?!?!?!?!?