A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[milnerpoint]

Unfortunately the vast majority of the buying public really aren't very fickle, a few vocal forum users does not a majority make and sales will continue to flourish.

Thats the thing, the vast majority of the PC gaming public will not see the issue, they will prob use steam already, or something similar, its becoming industry standard, its just SI and SEGA have not used it until now. The big complaints on here are from a select few older players on the most part but obviously not exclusive, average joe bloggs wont really see the problem.

[milnerpoint]

Just so I understand correctly, I HAVE to have steam running every time I play FM AND be connected to the internet?

What if I want to play my game on a train or whlie I'm on holiday?

no you just need to activate the game online once, then you can set steam to offline mode and never have to go online again unless you want to update the game.

[Richard76]

No.

You have to have Steam running everytime you play FM.

Steam has an offline mode for when you aren't connected to the internet that works most of the time.

Thanks.

Most of the time??

Not exactly reassuring.

[taylorsmen]

No.

You have to have Steam running everytime you play FM.

Steam has an offline mode for when you aren't connected to the internet that works most of the time.

Offline mode in Steam has never let me down once, but i guess i'm one of the lucky ones.

[milnerpoint]

Its also never let me down at all, but like all software there can be issues for specific people, windows wont work properly on one persons system yet perfect on millions others.

[Blackwolves]

Just a quick question!!

Will the disk be needed after I activate it through steam???

[Keyzer Soze]

Just a quick question!!

Will the disk be needed after I activate it through steam???

NO, you wont be needing the disk anymore

[Richard76]

How much is the game on Steam?

[milnerpoint]

Just a quick question!!

Will the disk be needed after I activate it through steam???

no the disk will not be needed, the game will run through steam, which takes the place of the disk.

[milnerpoint]

How much is the game on Steam?

its £29.99 right now on per-order.

[Crispypaul]

Plenty of other games in my collection are Steam-only, so this doesn't really bother me to be honest. Digital distribution in some manner is the way forward, and at the moment I'm of the opinion that Steam is the number one choice in that. Plus their sales are pretty good - I got Battlefield Bad Company 2 + Vietnam + some DLC for a tenner a while back and I've played it nearly every day. Some of their games are free too (including Alien Swarm, which is good fun if you haven't played it yet).

At least its not GFWL, which is a terrible piece of software IMO.

[Kriss]

Somebody asked about Uni port blocking earlier, the Steam forum has this list http://forums.steampowered.com/forum...d.php?t=723595 in case you want to choose your uni subject to whether or not it's FM friendly

[Romanista.]

something still hasnt been answered by SI/sega. what are FM12 holders to do if steam goes out of business/crashes/gets hacked???

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Hmmm fair enough. If that's how it worked with other games, I don't have any other games with Steam.

I'll still wait for clarification from SI on it though.

No need to wait.

Miles: Thanks for taking the time to reply. There's a few points in there that I concur with and a few that will only spark further debate, possibly over the best place to buy a seed-free sandwich.

However you have posted two questions that need answering. I would be grateful if you could answer these two as well, as they are important in relation to the customer experience using Steam:

1) "Can we download a patch from any other source rather than Steam's auto update feature"

2) "Can SI/SEGA assure us that when a user activates the game, Steam will not automatically download a patch"?
Because IIRC, people firing up the most recent Total War found themselves downloading a 1GB file when activating. Which might not be an issue for those blessed with superfast broadband connections, but even with FM 'relatively small' updates: for people on relatively slow connections it's a pain, for people with dowwnload limits it's an expensive mistake, and for people on dial-up it'll be an absolute nightmare. And it will render their purchase unplayable until they are able to complete the patch download.

3) Can you assure your customers that all patches will be 100% save game compatible in all territories? Because all hell will break loose if a patch that people have no choice whether to install or not crashes or unbalances their long-term saves.

1) No - the patches would only work going through that system.
2) I'm pretty sure there is a way to stop this, and that's been put on this thread, but it'll be looked into and if there is a way, we'll let you know when we build up an FAQ.
3) I can assure that we always do our level best to ensure that that is the case, and I don't think we've had a patch for many, many years that has required a new game to be started. I can't recall that happening at all in my time here.

You just need to read the thread. And as I said People should be careful when posting information that they do not absolutely know to be correct.

[spankie]

something still hasnt been answered by SI/sega. what are FM12 holders to do if steam goes out of business/crashes/gets hacked???

If that ever happens and if FM12 is still being manufactured then they will release a patch that won't need Steam to run. If it happens in a few years time then SI have no obligation to release a patch to remove the need for Steam because there have been new versions of the game that use different anti-piracy solutions.

[Wakers]

Why are people pre-ordering through steam when its £10 more expensive?

[eddymunster]

If that ever happens and if FM12 is still being manufactured then they will release a patch that won't need Steam to run. If it happens in a few years time then SI have no obligation to release a patch to remove the need for Steam because there have been new versions of the game that use different anti-piracy solutions.

Really? So if every FM 2012 stops working in say 2013/14/15 or whenever, even though you have paid for it you have no choice but stop using it. So your only really renting this game until steam stops you playing it?

I know this is unlikely, but still seems wrong.

[phnompenhandy]

Just a quick question!!

Will the disk be needed after I activate it through steam???

No, but it seems you can't sell it because you've already activated that disc.

What I'm not sure about is what happens if your computer crashes and needs reformatting, or you buy a new computer. Can the Steam activation be shifted to the new or reformatted computer? If you've bought the disc, have it, but can't play the game for those reasons, I think that would be really out of order. Can anyone clarify this scenario?

[Themer]

Really? So if every FM 2012 stops working in say 2013/14/15 or whenever, even though you have paid for it you have no choice but stop using it. So your only really renting this game until steam stops you playing it?

I know this is unlikely, but still seems wrong.

No. This is wrong, Valve (owners of steam) have repeatedly said that if they were to go bust they would release a last patch that would allow all games to run without steam.

[tattoman65]

Well i like many others will not be buying this years game .

and its worth to point out that every single game on steam . has been hacked .. there is not one single game that you cant download a hack copy off ...

so is it really worth SI upseting all its gammers for something that wont do the job they say it will ... if anything it will only add to the amount off hacked copys

[Themer]

No, but it seems you can't sell it because you've already activated that disc.

What I'm not sure about is what happens if your computer crashes and needs reformatting, or you buy a new computer. Can the Steam activation be shifted to the new or reformatted computer? If you've bought the disc, have it, but can't play the game for those reasons, I think that would be really out of order. Can anyone clarify this scenario?

Wouldn't make a difference. Your games are linked to your account not your computer/laptop. So all you need to do is reinstall Steam and then reinstall your games.

[Eugene Tyson]

No need to wait.

You just need to read the thread.

All 22 pages where I would say at least 10 of those pages are filled with just people being angry and making no sense?

I have read the thread, but not all the posts.

Although, that doesn't seem to cover whether it was installed from downloading via Steam or from disc.

Although I suspect that it does and I was probably wrong.

And as I said People should be careful when posting information that they do not absolutely know to be correct.

This is a forum, a place where people can talk openly. Sometimes someone is wrong. Doesn't mean they can't post what they think is the right answer. If they are wrong they are wrong. It's not the first time I was wrong about something and won't be the last.

And I'm sure from time to time you will post something that is wrong and someone will correct you. Let's hope they do it a more diplomatic manner than you take.

Thanks to the people who pointed out that patches will only be available through Steam.

<shrugs> I'll make sure to pass on that info the next time someone asks.

[milnerpoint]

No, but it seems you can't sell it because you've already activated that disc.

What I'm not sure about is what happens if your computer crashes and needs reformatting, or you buy a new computer. Can the Steam activation be shifted to the new or reformatted computer? If you've bought the disc, have it, but can't play the game for those reasons, I think that would be really out of order. Can anyone clarify this scenario?

You can download steam and log into your profile on any computer, you can then install any game you have bought or installed through that account. I recently moved my steam account onto my new laptop with no issues at all, took seconds to download steam and put in my details, i can also re-download half life and any game i have ever used through steam despite them being installed on different computers.

[Eugene Tyson]

No, but it seems you can't sell it because you've already activated that disc.

What I'm not sure about is what happens if your computer crashes and needs reformatting, or you buy a new computer. Can the Steam activation be shifted to the new or reformatted computer? If you've bought the disc, have it, but can't play the game for those reasons, I think that would be really out of order. Can anyone clarify this scenario?

If you buy a new computer, reformat or anything. You install Steam and you will be able to play the game.

The first time you log into Steam from a new computer or reformatted computer, or anything of the like, Steam will require verification as it recognises the new computer.

At this point, Steam will email you a verification code to input so you can log into Steam.

Which is called Steam Guard.

http://store.steampowered.com/news/5123/

[phnompenhandy]

So what if I "found" my old computer? Can I continue playing my FM save offline?

[Kriss]

No, but it seems you can't sell it because you've already activated that disc.

What I'm not sure about is what happens if your computer crashes and needs reformatting, or you buy a new computer. Can the Steam activation be shifted to the new or reformatted computer? If you've bought the disc, have it, but can't play the game for those reasons, I think that would be really out of order. Can anyone clarify this scenario?

The way it works is that if you access your Steam account from any different computer (or even browser) than the one you created your account with, it runs a little authentication script emailing you a one time only verification code.

[Kriss]

So what if I "found" my old computer? Can I continue playing my FM save offline?

You can play any save on any PC provided the save file is on it or on the Steam Cloud game save system. (don't use that personally)

[aaron70]

Again no one is screwing anyone over, not in the slightest, they are asking you to install a free program, nothing more. Anyone staying away is doing so by choice, not because SI have screwed you over.

You keep saying this. I and many others disagree. I have stated why before. Your opinion is nobody is getting screwed over, mine is that some people are.

I really can't see why you seem to expect people to be loyal to the game? Why would I accept that a game has made a decision that I do not approve off. That is just asking for trouble. The game is there for us. We are not there for the game. As soon as we say to the manufacturer, "Do what you want because we will buy it anyway", they will continue to seek ways to gain the biggest profit without a care for the consumer. You have already seen that your argument that once you activate steam it can be turned off is false. Eventually a deal may be one that you have to be online or something more intrusive. Why? Because Steam runs on ads. The more the merrier for them. It is the nature of the beast.

Just searching about steam issues and problems is causing me to reinforce my stance of not getting FM12.

[sd2500]

its £29.99 right now on per-order.

Bloody hell, and they are letting me pay 50 euro's. Can anyone from SI please explain this to me. This pisses me off.

[Kriss]

Bloody hell, and they are letting me pay 50 euro's. Can anyone from SI please explain this to me. This pisses me off.

That's a question for Steam not SI, must admit that their regional pricing policy begs a lot of questions.

[CaptainPlanet]

Are FM saves cloud compatible?

[phnompenhandy]

You can play any save on any PC provided the save file is on it or on the Steam Cloud game save system. (don't use that personally)

I don't quite understand that. In fact I don't have any friends who play FM, but I hope you can see what I'm getting at; is there a loophole whereby one person purchases the game, installs, activates and starts a savegame, then gives the disc to someone else who asks for a new activation code, starts a savegame .... and so on?

If it works like that, you could have a string of saves played by different people on different computers, all off one sale - which obviously completely destroys the whole purpose of the exercise!

[jptykes]

Are FM saves cloud compatible?

Too big, I believe. Someone said the limit is 100mb earlier in the thread iirc.

[Keyzer Soze]

one disk = one key = one activation

so you can give the disk to someone else, but that key disk is already activate.

[milnerpoint]

You keep saying this. I and many others disagree. I have stated why before. Your opinion is nobody is getting screwed over, my is that some people are.

I really can't see why you seem to expect people to be loyal to the game? Why would I accept that a game has made a decision that I do not approve off. That is just asking for trouble. The game is there for us. We are not there for the game. As soon as we say to the manufacturer, "Do what you want because we will buy it anyway", they will continue to seek ways to do the gain the biggest profit without a care for the consumer. You have already seen that your argument that once you activate steam it can be turned off is false. Eventually a deal may be one that you have to be online or something more intrusive. Why? Because Steam runs on ads. The more the merrier for them. It is the nature of the beast.

Just searching about steam issues and problems is causing me to reinforce my stance of not getting FM12.

I dont expect anyone to be loyal to the game, its a false term really anyway, your a consumer of a product nothing more in the bigger scheme of things. You should accept it if you want to play FM12, otherwise say no and walk away, but your not going to change the decision for this years game. The more people who dont buy it, the more likely it is SI will look again, but dont kid yourself your being "loyal" by doing this.
I never once argued that steam could be turned off when playing FM, i know for a fact its not true i use steam for all my PC gaming. You can turn it to offline mode which i have repeated a few times, perhaps you misread my posts? You can also turn off all the pop up adds on steam, i never see them except for when i go into the steam store.

If you search for windows problems, you would never want to own windows, if you go looking for software problems it is easy, you could find an article on any piece of software that would put you off it, what counts is personal experience. In my opinion of course.

[CaptainPlanet]

Too big, I believe. Someone said the limit is 100mb earlier in the thread iirc.

Okay dokey, cheers.

[sd2500]

That's a question for Steam not SI, must admit that their regional pricing policy begs a lot of questions.

Thanks Kriss i'll try to address steam about this. Do you have any idea Kriss how it comes that some websites can offer an activation code for 25€? And is it safe?

[milnerpoint]

I don't quite understand that. In fact I don't have any friends who play FM, but I hope you can see what I'm getting at; is there a loophole whereby one person purchases the game, installs, activates and starts a savegame, then gives the disc to someone else who asks for a new activation code, starts a savegame .... and so on?

If it works like that, you could have a string of saves played by different people on different computers, all off one sale - which obviously completely destroys the whole purpose of the exercise!

One account for one license to play FM, once it is licensed to one account it cannot be moved to another unless steam do it for you. So no your example would not be possible.

[BenjC]

I don't quite understand that. In fact I don't have any friends who play FM, but I hope you can see what I'm getting at; is there a loophole whereby one person purchases the game, installs, activates and starts a savegame, then gives the disc to someone else who asks for a new activation code, starts a savegame .... and so on?

If it works like that, you could have a string of saves played by different people on different computers, all off one sale - which obviously completely destroys the whole purpose of the exercise!

No there is no loophole. The activation code will be work once to associate the game with one Steam account that can only be used on one computer at a time simultaneously (You can still use your own account on multiple systems, e.g your desktop and laptop, just not at the same time)

[phnompenhandy]

one disk = one key = one activation

so you can give the disk to someone else, but that key disk is already activate.

You're not getting it. YOU can get a new activation if you install the disk in a new computer. "YOU" could be a different person. So my question is, can the old savegame be continued if Steam is still installed but offline?


ABOVE answers: So how does Steam prevent you playing your savegame if you're offline?

[jptykes]

one disk = one key = one activation

so you can give the disk to someone else, but that key disk is already activate.

But presumably if you also supply your Steam account details and they play offline...

[CaptainPlanet]

I don't quite understand that. In fact I don't have any friends who play FM, but I hope you can see what I'm getting at; is there a loophole whereby one person purchases the game, installs, activates and starts a savegame, then gives the disc to someone else who asks for a new activation code, starts a savegame .... and so on?

If it works like that, you could have a string of saves played by different people on different computers, all off one sale - which obviously completely destroys the whole purpose of the exercise!

Saved game files are transferable to any PC. They aren't limited by the account validation.

Installation and validation of the game is linked to your Steam account. So as long as you are logged in to your Steam account you can play FM.

[milnerpoint]

Thanks Kriss i'll try to address steam about this. Do you have any idea Kriss how it comes that some websites can offer an activation code for 25€? And is it safe?

i would be wary, i would only suggest buying the game from a reputable source, even if its not Steam.

[Cause = Time]

The code activates the game for your steam account, not the computer.

You can't pass it on to a friend because the code is only valid for one steam account. But if you get a new computer, you can activate your steam account on that and you'll have access to all your games.

[edit: for context, it was a reply to this post, which several other people already answered while I was typing.]

[milnerpoint]

But presumably if you also supply your Steam account details and they play offline...

you could try, but if steam detects your account being logged into two different locations it will ban the account instantly and there will be no chance of them reversing the decision.

[aaron70]

I never once argued that steam could be turned off when playing FM, i know for a fact its not true i use steam for all my PC gaming. You can turn it to offline mode which i have repeated a few times, perhaps you misread my posts? You can also turn off all the pop up adds on steam, i never see them except for when i go into the steam store.
.

K.. Apologies...I must have misread that at the time

[TacticalGenius]

What I'm not sure about is what happens if your computer crashes and needs reformatting, or you buy a new computer. Can the Steam activation be shifted to the new or reformatted computer? If you've bought the disc, have it, but can't play the game for those reasons, I think that would be really out of order. Can anyone clarify this scenario?

I did. I just re-downloaded steam on the reformatted computer, logged in and re-downloaded FM.

[milnerpoint]

You're not getting it. YOU can get a new activation if you install the disk in a new computer. "YOU" could be a different person. So my question is, can the old savegame be continued if Steam is still installed but offline?


ABOVE answers: So how does Steam prevent you playing your savegame if you're offline?

save games are not linked to steam on the game is, save games can be moved and played on any computer, the same as if its installed through disk/

[phnompenhandy]

you could try, but if steam detects your account being logged into two different locations it will ban the account instantly and there will be no chance of them reversing the decision.

Ah, maybe that nails it. Presumably the naughty person would need to have the savegame on a computer that NEVER accesses the internet. But then, couldn't they simply block the connection to Steam?

[BenjC]

You're not getting it. YOU can get a new activation if you install the disk in a new computer. "YOU" could be a different person. So my question is, can the old savegame be continued if Steam is still installed but offline?


ABOVE answers: So how does Steam prevent you playing your savegame if you're offline?

You don't get a new activation if you install on a new computer, you just get access to your account which has the activation.

[milnerpoint]

K.. Apologies...I must have misread that at the time

not a problem at all, its a big thread

[Keyzer Soze]

you could try, but if steam detects your account being logged into two different locations it will ban the account instantly and there will be no chance of them reversing the decision.

But, then again, if you and your friend are playing the game with steam in offline mode... how can steam detect?

[TacticalGenius]

What I'm not sure about is what happens if your computer crashes and needs reformatting, or you buy a new computer. Can the Steam activation be shifted to the new or reformatted computer? If you've bought the disc, have it, but can't play the game for those reasons, I think that would be really out of order. Can anyone clarify this scenario?

I did. I just re-downloaded steam on the reformatted computer, logged in and re-downloaded FM. After doing this:

The way it works is that if you access your Steam account from any different computer (or even browser) than the one you created your account with, it runs a little authentication script emailing you a one time only verification code.

[jptykes]

you could try, but if steam detects your account being logged into two different locations it will ban the account instantly and there will be no chance of them reversing the decision.

I've no intention of trying, I just thought that was the point phonmpenhandy was trying to make.

[Kriss]

Thanks Kriss i'll try to address steam about this. Do you have any idea Kriss how it comes that some websites can offer an activation code for 25€? And is it safe?

They cut profit margins to the minimum or even sell some as loss leaders.

Always best to ask on here if something looks too good, there's always somebody who's bought from there.

[Kriss]

You don't get a new activation if you install on a new computer, you just get access to your account which has the activation.

You also get the authentication email I mentioned (sent to the email address associated with the account)

[milnerpoint]

Ah, maybe that nails it. Presumably the naughty person would need to have the savegame on a computer that NEVER accesses the internet. But then, couldn't they simply block the connection to Steam?

I would be wary of us going any further with this, it will be bordering on promoting illegal activities, the legal stance is one license one computer at a time, if anyone works around that its their business but be prepared, steam do not mess around, there will be no negotiating or excuse that your younger brother used it without you knowing, any tiny infringement of their rules will have you instantly and permanently banned with no chance of you getting your account back, they wont even discuss it with you.

[CaptainPlanet]

Ah, maybe that nails it. Presumably the naughty person would need to have the savegame on a computer that NEVER accesses the internet. But then, couldn't they simply block the connection to Steam?

Each new computer Steam is on needs to go online once to validate the Steam account before you can go in to offline mode. Even if they aren't online at the same time it will flag up to Steam if multiple computers are being used for the same Steam account.

[milnerpoint]

But, then again, if you and your friend are playing the game with steam in offline mode... how can steam detect?

see my post above.

[milnerpoint]

I've no intention of trying, I just thought that was the point phonmpenhandy was trying to make.

yeah sorry i wasnt accusing you of anything

[BenjC]

You also get the authentication email I mentioned (sent to the email address associated with the account)

I know, it seemed like the original poster was trying to say you could get a new activation code for the game itself.

My mistake if he wasn't.

[Stormwind City]

I live in Germany and I have played the game for many years now, heck, I even bought multiple copies the last two years (could not wait for the disk to arrive...). It would be extremely disappointing not to be able to play FM anymore!
So: Could somebody from SEGA please clarify what happens if I buy a copy in the UK and try to activate it from Germany, please?
Preventing people in Germany (and other countries?) to play the game will in effect mean you might loose more customers than you win by excluding the pirates...

[chairman meow]

I would also like to state my displeasure in this news. As a paying customer of games past, I will now have to consider buying this version, whereas it would have been a no-brainer before.

That being said I'm sure sales of this version or future versions will not be noticeably impacted one way or another by this decision and sales will instead be dictated by how improved the game is. I would like to point out that the same method of DRM has been cracked before and will be again... I guess games companies are really naive and/or ignorant or they are being advised by DRM makers and being propagandized by them. The amount of time and money it takes to incorporate some elaborate DRM scheme into a game and developing or licensing the DRM itself surely can not make up for getting a few extra sales by the "guy who was smart enough to pirate the 'lesser' DRMed FMs but is absolutely flummoxed with this new DRM" demographic. And then they actually have to go and buy it rather than just giving up and moving on to something else. Also I would assume increased tech support costs for paying customers that don't know what to do too, plus the loss of outraged customers (which is negligible though IMHO). Anything else I'm forgetting? I would love to see real numbers (not propaganda or some hypothetical idealized guesstimated number like in the OP) behind all of these decisions because in my mind that don't make a lick of sense.

Do you not remember Assassin's Creed? What happened at the end? It was cracked (and made easier to play by the pirates). It's a tale as old as time (or at least video games). The only way you can avoid being pirated is if you are a really niche game with a somewhat decent DRM. That would leave you off the radar of the cracking groups but they may still crack it if they notice it. Of course this doesn't apply because FM is a huge game. No matter what the DRM FM puts in place it will be cracked. If you believe otherwise you need to step back into reality. How can you DRM supporters endorse wasting resources on this futile effort? I like to play in the MLS and I would rather they commit these resources to fixing that rather than trying to cynically squeeze a few more sales out of the game.

People will buy it if it's good. That's all you need to know.

[huntelaar19]

Then you are no longer loyal, simple as, my local football team are rubbish, lose most weeks, only scored in two league games this season, but im loyal and go watch them every week, thats what i mean through good and bad, loyal people are not just there through what could be perceived as the good times, they are there through everything, even decisions they dont agree with because loyalty is sticking with something through thick and thin.

Again no one is screwing anyone over, not in the slightest, they are asking you to install a free program, nothing more. Anyone staying away is doing so by choice, not because SI have screwed you over.

Surely that's a completely different case ? I'm guessing and definitely hoping that your local football team whomever they may be don't go out every week to lose games purposely ? Well SI or SEGA or whatever have purposely made the decision that to play FM12 STEAM is a necessity.

Don't get me wrong, I'll buy FM12, infact when I submit this post I'll probably go find the cheapest offer and pre-order it ! However I really don't agree with this decision, I don't know the ins and outs of STEAM so I don't have a problem using it but for two years now I've came on these forums almost every day and have seen post after post after post, thread after thread after thread in which so many people have voiced their concerns, their general dislike and their refusal to allow STEAM anywhere near their device so there's no doubt in my mind SI/SEGA know how a vast majority of their customers feel about STEAM and as such I feel it's a poor decision in all. In saying that, I don't know any figures relating to projected sales with this measure being taken and I doubt this decision would have been made lightly so maybe to ensure the future of FM this decision as tough as it was had to be made.

My main problem here is the fact you need internet connection. While I'm no longer in this boat as I've had internet connection for a few years now, I'm 18 and started playing this game when I seen my cousin playing it nine years ago. I was a nine year old with a single mother, there was no internet connection in my house. Had I needed internet connection for FM back then I'd have had no chance. Not a chance in hell. And you could bet I'd have been pretty upset which would have put unnecessary pressure on my mum. Now I can guarentee despite the increase in households with internet connection there will still be a percentage of FM users no matter how big or small that will be in this predicament and thats just not fair. Maybe it's the fact that this percentage will be the latter rather than the former and projected sales will mean this loss of custom will be little more than a scratch in SEGA's sales. Although the argument that there are more options to connect to the internet outside of your home to download STEAM and use the offline option is it really ok to ask your customers to go out and pay £20-£30 and then go to the library or the internet café or use someone elses broadband before they can then play the game they paid for ? I should reitterate that STEAM is by no means my area of expertees but perhaps if someone owns an older computer the last thing they want to do is be downloading a piece of software they don't actually want ?

[phnompenhandy]

Originally Posted by milnerpoint
Then you are no longer loyal, simple as, my local football team are rubbish, lose most weeks, only scored in two league games this season, but im loyal and go watch them every week, thats what i mean through good and bad, loyal people are not just there through what could be perceived as the good times, they are there through everything, even decisions they dont agree with because loyalty is sticking with something through thick and thin.

Going off topic, but it is an inappropriate analogy. My local team is Arsenal - the stadium is a ten minute walk away. I can't afford to watch them now the ticket prices are amongst the highest in the world. Does that make me disloyal?

Be clear, I am NOT saying FM is too expensive - I absolutely do not think that at all. i just mean your concept of loyalty is faulty here.
[/QUOTE]

[milnerpoint]

Surely that's a completely different case ? I'm guessing and definitely hoping that your local football team whomever they may be don't go out every week to lose games purposely ?

You would hope so, but it doesnt always seem that way from where im sitting!!

Don't get me wrong, I'll buy FM12, infact when I submit this post I'll probably go find the cheapest offer and pre-order it ! However I really don't agree with this decision, I don't know the ins and outs of STEAM so I don't have a problem using it but for two years now I've came on these forums almost every day and have seen post after post after post, thread after thread after thread in which so many people have voiced their concerns, their general dislike and their refusal to allow STEAM anywhere near their device so there's no doubt in my mind SI/SEGA know how a vast majority of their customers feel about STEAM and as such I feel it's a poor decision in all. In saying that, I don't know any figures relating to projected sales with this measure being taken and I doubt this decision would have been made lightly so maybe to ensure the future of FM this decision as tough as it was had to be made.

your right, which is why they have gone this way, the forums make up a tiny proportion of FMer's and there is an even smaller number of forum users dead against it. Remember this thread and the others made are by large the same 50/60 posters over and over.

My main problem here is the fact you need internet connection. While I'm no longer in this boat as I've had internet connection for a few years now, I'm 18 and started playing this game when I seen my cousin playing it nine years ago. I was a nine year old with a single mother, there was no internet connection in my house. Had I needed internet connection for FM back then I'd have had no chance. Not a chance in hell. And you could bet I'd have been pretty upset which would have put unnecessary pressure on my mum. Now I can guarentee despite the increase in households with internet connection there will still be a percentage of FM users no matter how big or small that will be in this predicament and thats just not fair. Maybe it's the fact that this percentage will be the latter rather than the former and projected sales will mean this loss of custom will be little more than a scratch in SEGA's sales. Although the argument that there are more options to connect to the internet outside of your home to download STEAM and use the offline option is it really ok to ask your customers to go out and pay £20-£30 and then go to the library or the internet café or use someone elses broadband before they can then play the game they paid for ? I should reitterate that STEAM is by no means my area of expertees but perhaps if someone owns an older computer the last thing they want to do is be downloading a piece of software they don't actually want ?

you have the choice before you buy the game, you have to decide then, "can i get internet to make this game work?" If not, dont buy it, Miles has said there will be a big warning pack on the game that will tell you this before you buy it.

[aaron70]

So you have the game installed on your desktop and your laptop. You forgot to log off the desktop and log in on your laptop. You mean that's it!! I lose access to my games I paid for without a chance of explanation....seriously.....Now this is sounding even worse!!

[Kriss]

I live in Germany and I have played the game for many years now, heck, I even bought multiple copies the last two years (could not wait for the disk to arrive...). It would be extremely disappointing not to be able to play FM anymore!
So: Could somebody from SEGA please clarify what happens if I buy a copy in the UK and try to activate it from Germany, please?
Preventing people in Germany (and other countries?) to play the game will in effect mean you might loose more customers than you win by excluding the pirates...

Miles is getting this clarified and we'll hear eventually.

[milnerpoint]

Going off topic, but it is an inappropriate analogy. My local team is Arsenal - the stadium is a ten minute walk away. I can't afford to watch them now the ticket prices are amongst the highest in the world. Does that make me disloyal?

Be clear, I am NOT saying FM is too expensive - I absolutely do not think that at all. i just mean your concept of loyalty is faulty here.

SI are not pricing you out of FM, steam is free and you can get free internet in most large cities.
The concept of someone buying FM being loyal is faulty anyway, but if people must use it so will i.

[CaptainPlanet]

So you have the game installed on your desktop and your laptop. You forgot to log off the desktop and log in on your laptop. You mean that's it!! I lose access to my games I paid for without a chance of explanation....seriously.....Now this is sounding even worse!!

Want it on two computers? Buy two copies.

[Kriss]

So you have the game installed on your desktop and your laptop. You forgot to log off the desktop and log in on your laptop. You mean that's it!! I lose access to my games I paid for without a chance of explanation....seriously.....Now this is sounding even worse!!

No, it knows it's you whichever PC you're on because of the authentication gizmo.

[Eugene Tyson]

@aaron70

You need to take that up with Steam. You can contact their customer support, and they will give you the chance to provide proof of purchase of the game.

[CaptainPlanet]

No, it knows it's you whichever PC you're on because of the authentication gizmo.

If you're logged in to Steam on two computers at the same time, your account can and will get banned. Even if it's under the same IP address. Although such bans are available to dispute.

[aaron70]

Want it on two computers? Buy two copies.

And you think that is okay?? I own both computers and I buy a game, but I can only put it on one of MY computers to make sure I do not lose that game...you are seriously saying this is okay. Is this considered acceptable by consumers now? In other words you don't own the game you bought. Man, the consumers have been absolutely pounded into submissiveness.

[milnerpoint]

And you think that is okay?? I own both computers and I buy a game, but I can only put it on one of MY computers to make sure I do not lose that game...you are seriously saying this is okay. Is this considered acceptable by consumers now? In other words you don't own the game you bought. Man, the consumers have been absolutely pounded into submissiveness.

You have never owned any game you bought for PC, you have bought a license to use it. Consols are a bit different, you do own the game for them.

[aaron70]

@aaron70

You need to take that up with Steam. You can contact their customer support, and they will give you the chance to provide proof of purchase of the game.

Okay...thanks Eugene. It was started earlier that you would be banned without recourse. Still that really seals it for me. No FM12. I mean we have become whimpering kittens getting bullied by the manufacturers. I spend amy money and can't even put the thing on both my computers....just incredible. Really crazy to me. I give up!!! FM11 forever,,,

[CaptainPlanet]

And you think that is okay?? I own both computers and I buy a game, but I can only put it on one of MY computers to make sure I do not lose that game...you are seriously saying this is okay. Is this considered acceptable by consumers now? In other words you don't own the game you bought. Man, the consumers have been absolutely pounded into submissiveness.

Of course I think it's ok, it's a valid way to detect a system that is open to abuse. You can't buy one copy of windows to run on two computers at the same time, why should you be allowed to do the same with a game?

[huntelaar19]

You would hope so, but it doesnt always seem that way from where im sitting!!

Hahahaha, I've spent like three hours going through this thread, I've finally laughed so thank you for that !

your right, which is why they have gone this way, the forums make up a tiny proportion of FMer's and there is an even smaller number of forum users dead against it. Remember this thread and the others made are by large the same 50/60 posters over and over.

Yeah I suppose your right there, but how many FM users are there out there that aren't forum members and are also dead against STEAM ? It just seems to me that the STEAM haters are being punished because of the pirates. STEAM haters and pirates, I wish there was a cool name for the category i'm in, fence warmer perhaps ?

you have the choice before you buy the game, you have to decide then, "can i get internet to make this game work?" If not, dont buy it, Miles has said there will be a big warning pack on the game that will tell you this before you buy it.

I didn't think for a moment this would not be the case however it seems like a bit of a kick in the footballs if you've played the series for years pick up the game and find out you no longer can play the game.

[Super Bladesman]

And you think that is okay?? I own both computers and I buy a game, but I can only put it on one of MY computers to make sure I do not lose that game...you are seriously saying this is okay. Is this considered acceptable by consumers now? In other words you don't own the game you bought. Man, the consumers have been absolutely pounded into submissiveness.

I routinely access my Steam account (and attached games) on 2 machines. You log in to Steam on one PC and it automatically logs you out on the other. You can install and play your Steamworks games on as many PCs as you like, and if you lose the disc, you'd even be able to download the game again from Steam, even though you didn't buy from them. I really don't get the Steam bashing, it's generally a great product. I pretty much only buy games via Steam now - if it ain't on Steam, I'm unlikely to buy it.

[aaron70]

You have never owned any game you bought for PC, you have bought a license to use it. Consols are a bit different, you do own the game for them.

Pedantic reply. I had a disk. I could put it on my computer at home, work, and laptop if I wanted. My game, my computers, one user.

[CaptainPlanet]

I really don't get the Steam bashing, it's generally a great product. I pretty much only buy games via Steam now - if it ain't on Steam, I'm unlikely to buy it.

I don't either, and people seem very reluctant to change their views on it once their mind is made up!

[aaron70]

Of course I think it's ok, it's a valid way to detect a system that is open to abuse. You can't buy one copy of windows to run on two computers at the same time, why should you be allowed to do the same with a game?

I don't know what to say to that. I hope you can see where this argument goes. Stop abuse of the system by enforcing more controls that does not actually stop those who want to get around them. 1984 anyone?

[CaptainPlanet]

I don't know what to say to that. I hope you can see where this argument goes. Stop abuse of the system by enforcing more controls that does not actually stop those who want to get around them. 1984 anyone?

But it does stop people using multiple versions of the same steam account which used to be a problem. It's an effective solution.

[Eugene Tyson]

Pedantic reply. I had a disk. I could put it on my computer at home, work, and laptop if I wanted. My game, my computers, one user.

Absolutely not.

You don't own the software, any software that you buy. Including Windows, Mac OS, any fonts that you "buy", most software.

You don't own it. You buy a license to use it. The software comes with a EULA. For Football Manager your license is restricted to the installation on 1 computer.

It's not your game. It's a license to use the game, and the agreement is that you can install and use the Software on one computer.


This is standard for most software.

[aaron70]

I routinely access my Steam account (and attached games) on 2 machines. You log in to Steam on one PC and it automatically logs you out on the other. You can install and play your Steamworks games on as many PCs as you like, and if you lose the disc, you'd even be able to download the game again from Steam, even though you didn't buy from them. I really don't get the Steam bashing, it's generally a great product. I pretty much only buy games via Steam now - if it ain't on Steam, I'm unlikely to buy it.

Okay. You have been the first person to mention automatic logging off and you also have said you can play on many different PCs, again that is different to what Captain Planet was saying. If this is the case, it at least stops what would have bee lunacy.

[milnerpoint]

Hahahaha, I've spent like three hours going through this thread, I've finally laughed so thank you for that !

Yeah I suppose your right there, but how many FM users are there out there that aren't forum members and are also dead against STEAM ? It just seems to me that the STEAM haters are being punished because of the pirates. STEAM haters and pirates, I wish there was a cool name for the category i'm in, fence warmer perhaps ?

I didn't think for a moment this would not be the case however it seems like a bit of a kick in the footballs if you've played the series for years pick up the game and find out you no longer can play the game.

Hey we need to laugh sometime, god knows its all that gets me through most saturdays!!
Ask yourself, how many people installed through steam for FM11? Neither of us will know that, but you can bet SI and SEGA do, if those figures were not encouraging they would have never gone down this route. Remember your average young gamer most likely has accepted things like steam and others, they are becoming standard, they will not bat an eyelid at all.
yup its very sad some people will miss out, but thats the nature of advancement, im sure more have missed out because their pc was not up to scratch, or their graphics card died.

[milnerpoint]

Okay. You have been the first person to mention automatic logging off and you also have said you can play on many different PCs, again that is different to what Captain Planet was saying. If this is the case, it at least stops what would have bee lunacy.

yeah you wont get banned for what your saying, sorry i should have been more specific, Steam will know where your logging in from, if its from the same IP the chances are it wont get flagged as long as its not repeated log in's, if the two log ins occur more than once from distant locations the account will be locked down.

[aaron70]

Hey we need to laugh sometime, god knows its all that gets me through most saturdays!!
Ask yourself, how many people installed through steam for FM11? Neither of us will know that, but you can bet SI and SEGA do, if those figures were not encouraging they would have never gone down this route. Remember your average young gamer most likely has accepted things like steam and others, they are becoming standard, they will not bat an eyelid at all.
yup its very sad some people will miss out, but thats the nature of advancement, im sure more have missed out because their pc was not up to scratch, or their graphics card died.

Milner...you talked about loyalty before....this is the what i am getting at here. You have just identified those most likely to miss out. People who have been playing this series for a long time...a lot of older players actually only play FM. They are the ones who suffer and that is why a noise is being made on this thread.

Anyway I will leave it at that. I see consumers will accept just about anything these days. I can see the day when you will have to use a thumb print scanning to log into your game. People will say "what's the problem?" Poor old fogies don't get it And even then the games will still be pirated because the pirates are cleverer than the developers.

I will choose to sit it out. It just does not sit right with me...peace to all of you and happy gaming

[Snaus]

What will the situation be for the FMH versions of FM 2012?

(Sorry, I know this is the PC/Mac forum, but there's no announcement in the handheld section and I didn't want to start a new thread there).

Personally I have a PSP and I don't think there'll be something special for it. But how about the iOS versions?

[CaptainPlanet]

Okay. You have been the first person to mention automatic logging off and you also have said you can play on many different PCs, again that is different to what Captain Planet was saying. If this is the case, it at least stops what would have bee lunacy.

There's some resiliency built in to allow for mistakes, but it's still against the terms of usage.

[Themer]

Okay. You have been the first person to mention automatic logging off and you also have said you can play on many different PCs, again that is different to what Captain Planet was saying. If this is the case, it at least stops what would have bee lunacy.

There are alot of fallacies being spouted on here about steam. I have a PC and a laptop in my house both of which have steam on them which automatically login when started. If I go on my PC when someone is already on the laptop it simply tells me I'm logged on elsewhere and can I sign in, having to physically put in my password. After I've done this it automatically logs me out of the laptop. You don't get banned or anything silly, they do realise some people might have a PC and laptop.

[CaptainPlanet]

There are alot of fallacies being spouted on here about steam. I have a PC and a laptop in my house both of which have steam on them which automatically login when started. If I go on my PC when someone is already on the laptop it simply tells me I'm logged on elsewhere and can I sign in, having to physically put in my password. After I've done this it automatically logs me out of the laptop. You don't get banned or anything silly, they do realise some people might have a PC and laptop.

They did used to instaban for it. I didn't realise they had implemented the auto-logout feature.

Although it still leaves it open to abuse through the offline mode.

[7Bestie7]

There are alot of fallacies being spouted on here about steam. I have a PC and a laptop in my house both of which have steam on them which automatically login when started. If I go on my PC when someone is already on the laptop it simply tells me I'm logged on elsewhere and can I sign in, having to physically put in my password. After I've done this it automatically logs me out of the laptop. You don't get banned or anything silly, they do realise some people might have a PC and laptop.

Essentially what happens in regards to any messenger system. And to go on a small tangent, there are some online poker software which doesn't do this, you have to log out of the previous computer to log into another to avoid multi-accounting (a massive issue in the online poker world). It's a standard security issue for anything that's taken seriously so I can't see why anyone would/should/could have troubles with this.

[jakobx]

Absolutely not.

You don't own the software, any software that you buy. Including Windows, Mac OS, any fonts that you "buy", most software.

You don't own it. You buy a license to use it. The software comes with a EULA. For Football Manager your license is restricted to the installation on 1 computer.

It's not your game. It's a license to use the game, and the agreement is that you can install and use the Software on one computer.

This is standard for most software.

Really? Why is that so? Cause it says so when you install the game? Dont be silly. None of those terms were disclosed prior to buying the game. Try suing someone for breaching EULA in a normal court.

[milnerpoint]

yeah they did used to instaban no questions asked for this kind of thing but they lenient now.

[Eugene Tyson]

You're made aware of the EULA prior to installation of most software. It's actually when you click the "I agree to the... " option most people just tick that box without reading it.


Nobody is going to be sued for installing the game on two computers that they own.

But you might be if you install it on 100's of computers.

[milnerpoint]

Really? Why is that so? Cause it says so when you install the game? Dont be silly. None of those terms were disclosed prior to buying the game. Try suing someone for breaching EULA in a normal court.

Legally standing what he says is correct, even if it is difficult to enforce, basically SEGA have taken the ability away to break the law.

[BayernMB]

Thanks.

Most of the time??

Not exactly reassuring.

I never had problems while running it in offline mode and I'm using it since FM09. I must add that 95% of time I use online mode...

[kevgaleuk]

without having to provide my data to a third-part company in order to download third-part software

Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of SI's decision to force just one way to play the game on the consumer can I ask a separate question that I have not seen tackled here?

Where are Steam based? If they are US or elsewise outside of the UK then unless I am very wrong then they are NOT tied to any data protection laws in the UK. Can SI/Sega confirm what the data security measures are and that Steam/whomever the parent company is are tied to data protection laws in the country OF THE CONSUMER not their base? I am assuming no financial information needs to be given but my email address is a valuable asset and I work very hard to ensure I don't get spam from companies by not signing up to much.

I work in the data world so my other questions are:

What personal information am I REQUIRED to provide in order to create an account and activate the game?

What OPT-OUTS do they have for providing data (I am hoping they don't just squirrel away that by agreeing to install Steam you are letting them have access to your data? Can I opt-out of not only 3rd Party but Steam/Holding company too?

Thanks

[milnerpoint]

Milner...you talked about loyalty before....this is the what i am getting at here. You have just identified those most likely to miss out. People who have been playing this series for a long time...a lot of older players actually only play FM. They are the ones who suffer and that is why a noise is being made on this thread.

Anyway I will leave it at that. I see consumers will accept just about anything these days. I can see the day when you will have to use a thumb print scanning to log into your game. People will say "what's the problem?" Poor old fogies don't get it And even then the games will still be pirated because the pirates are cleverer than the developers.

I will choose to sit it out. It just does not sit right with me...peace to all of you and happy gaming

They are going to miss out by choice tho, its their choice not to follow the way gaming technology is going, be it because they dont agree with it or dont want to be forced to use it.
I wont bite to the rest because its all been said, sadly you wont be enjoying FM12, thats your decision and even if i dont understand it i respect it