A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[Loversleaper]

@Miles

I liked your sandwich story, so to build on that: the way it has been set up this time around in the sandwich shop is that a costumer comes in to buy a chicken-sandwich. Once he/she has recieved the sandwich (which is all buttered up) he/she is then told he/she needs to go to another shop to get the chicken! For people that have stationary computers and no internet connection will be like having to take your whole kitchen with you to the sandwich shop...

[seagull84]

Miles....

While you're about could you please just cast your eye over the issue I raised in this thread please

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...ll-play-Fm2012

enjoyed reading your response. Agree with pretty much all of it, like I've stated. No problems with STEAM whatsoever, just very concerned that I (and presumably many others) may be locked out


thanks in advance

[karlrobertuk]

Miles nice one for answering and putting your point across. Well done sir, even if i dont agree with all...

[Cougar2010]

So if someone has ISP trouble and their broadband for whatever reason goes 'down' does that mean Steam can not work and therefore games can't be played?

There have been cases with my previous well known ISP going down for hours.

Of course it's not the end of the world if such a thing happens, but I think out of principle it is wrong that I or anyone can't play a legally purchased game if I have trouble with my ISP and the internet goes 'down'.

You should be able to set Steam in offline mode if that happens.

As Scab has said you can use offline mode but you'll lose all your gameplay since your last save like you would with a power cut.

[Scab]

As Scab has said you can use offline mode but you'll lose all your gameplay since your last save like you would with a power cut.

Well, not really; the game doesn't force exit when Steam loses Internet connectivity. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

[Cougar2010]

Well, not really; the game doesn't force exit when Steam loses Internet connectivity. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

It does if you are in "Online" mode as far as I know.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I read the posts and then made my own mind up that this is a fuss over nothing, then expressed my view here. You're welcome to disagree but you shouldn't question the validity of my opinion just because you hold a different one. This is an absolute storm in a teacup, and if this is the worst thing to ever happen to the series as some people seem to believe then frankly SI and SEGA are doing a magnificent job.

This forum being the teacup you mean? What about the customers outside in the real world many of whom won't even know this site exists.? What about customers around the world without any internet access or capable access? How many of all the people who don't know of this decision are likely to be disappointed come purchase time, to see the activation requirements or worse still not see them till it's too late?

There's a couple of potentially many storms outside the teacup, and quite frankly I am disgusted with your "I'm Alright Jack" attitude.

[dafuge]

It does if you are in "Online" mode as far as I know.

It has never happened to me, but that is a big problem if it is the case.

[PW]

The SEGA site and many of the pre-sales sites have no information whatsoever about having to activate the game via the internet and ONLY via Steam.
Great customer service there so the people already pre-purchased the game thinking it is the same as usual will have a big surprise won't they!

[Miles Jacobson]

Miles I personally have no problem with using steam has it's how I bought fm11 and it's been fine. I just wanted to know if you will be providing a way for those to buy and play the game for those who don't have net and will there be a way my mate can activate his game on my pc?

The game requires an internet connection to authenticate. So if someone has no internet connection, nor the possibility of getting one (such as a hotspot), then no.

Miles....

While you're about could you please just cast your eye over the issue I raised in this thread please

http://community.sigames.com/showthr...ll-play-Fm2012

enjoyed reading your response. Agree with pretty much all of it, like I've stated. No problems with STEAM whatsoever, just very concerned that I (and presumably many others) may be locked out

thanks in advance

I spoke about that at the bottom of my post - it's something that is an unanswered question that I don't know the answer to, that hopefully SEGA will find out and get back to people on. In South Korea particularly, the game will be available via Steam, although the Korean releases are often later than those in the West. Whether you'll be able to buy the UK version, or not, is something that SEGA need to answer.

[Cougar2010]

You've asked how we're letting people know about this. Well, apart from the forum thread, there was a mailshot on Friday to hundreds of thousands of our registered customers to let them know about it, as well as telling them about the blogs and the release date. Since then, pre-orders have gone up massively with our pre-order position at Amazon in the UK (for example) going up from the mid 20's into the top 10, peaking at 5 and currently at 7, which is way higher than we normally are at this time of year. There will also be, front of pack in between the SI logo and the age rating, in big letters, the words "requires internet connection to activate", which was insisted upon by me for us to be able to go ahead with this. I will be chasing SEGA first thing on Monday to ensure that all retailers who have packshots online switch to the final packshot, rather than the one they are currently using.

Personally I don't think thats enough.

If it was my product I would want customers to know they don't just need an internet connection but they need a specific piece of software which is provided on the disc?

[PW]

@Miles

I liked your sandwich story, so to build on that: the way it has been set up this time around in the sandwich shop is that a costumer comes in to buy a chicken-sandwich. Once he/she has recieved the sandwich (which is all buttered up) he/she is then told he/she needs to go to another shop to get the chicken! For people that have stationary computers and no internet connection will be like having to take your whole kitchen with you to the sandwich shop...

Exactly, we will provide you a part of the pie but to get the filling please go elsewhere and sorry if you can't get to the other shop for the filling but hey ho who care we have made a sale!
Jesus I really though this game was different, made by brothers in their bedroom for the right reasons with a community that is integral to the game and valued and listened to..................whoops then along came Sega and the soul sold to the devil................we will do what we wany base don our opinion and our greed and the people that fall through the cracks????...well they are not that important to us so who cares!

[leftback in the changing room]

Miles: Thanks for taking the time to reply. There's a few points in there that I concur with and a few that will only spark further debate, possibly over the best place to buy a seed-free sandwich.

However you have posted two questions that need answering. I would be grateful if you could answer these two as well, as they are important in relation to the customer experience using Steam:

1) "Can we download a patch from any other source rather than Steam's auto update feature"

2) "Can SI/SEGA assure us that when a user activates the game, Steam will not automatically download a patch"?
Because IIRC, people firing up the most recent Total War found themselves downloading a 1GB file when activating. Which might not be an issue for those blessed with superfast broadband connections, but even with FM 'relatively small' updates: for people on relatively slow connections it's a pain, for people with dowwnload limits it's an expensive mistake, and for people on dial-up it'll be an absolute nightmare. And it will render their purchase unplayable until they are able to complete the patch download.

3) Can you assure your customers that all patches will be 100% save game compatible in all territories? Because all hell will break loose if a patch that people have no choice whether to install or not crashes or unbalances their long-term saves.

[PW]

Personally I don't think thats enough.

If it was my product I would want customers to know they don't just need an internet connection but they need a specific piece of software which is provided on the disc?

AND WELL BEFORE it went on pre-release my god its is another monumental mess.

[Jibby123]

....There are 2 questions that I haven't been able to answer that I do think need answering, which are how do people in countries where the game isn't sold play, and what about people in the forces who don't have net connections. Those are things for SEGA to look into, and I would hope that they would get back to you on those.

I have no opinion either way on Steam, but that's the key for me. I've played CM/FM since '96, and luckily I am going to be around this year to online activate, but I might not be next year, or thereafter. And I know quite a few who are away right now and won't have the online access needed, nor will they until a 2 week R&R maybe not until Jan/Feb. That sucks.

[Cause = Time]

It does if you are in "Online" mode as far as I know.

The wireless in my old flat was a bit dodgy, and I regularly lost connection - the game carries on just fine. Only effect is that you can't get achievements until you're online again.

[mantralux]

Miles; even though Valve might be easy to work with for you guys, doesn't mean they're easy to work from a customer perspective. You do remember us, the customers right? Steam's support is notoriously horrible, and there is absolutely nothing SEGA can help me with if there is any problems with my Steam client (which there is, a lot).

And if the argument is that Steam would prevent pirates from releasing the game earlier than release date - release it on Steam first, and then release it conventionally after a week or so = problem solved.

[Barkermush]

I don't like the fact that we have to keep Steam installed after activating..

I don't mind having to activate the game, saves SI and Sega money and stops pirates.

But why can't it be like FM09? Where we could register the game online over the internet, without having to install steam..
Why are we now being for forced to install Steam and play in offline mode?

Thanks to the pirates, we now have to install a client just to be able to play a game we have paid for.

Yeah some people love Steam and say it's great for keeping all their games in one place, well I don't really play any other game on my PC/Laptop (I used to play Civ, but not anymore) Apart from that, I've always just played CM/FM on my PC. Simply by buying the game, inserting the disk installing, and playing.
Apart from with FM09, where I installed, then activated, then played. And I don't travel around the world for work etc, I only play FM at home where the disk is always to hand, so Steam is of no advantage to me.
Plus I don't always patch my game straight away, I like to see what over people say about it. (sometimes the 2nd patch makes it worse) but with Steam, I've read that it automatically updates the game and you have no choice in the matter, and you can't roll back to the previous patch with Steam.


I don't believe for one minute it's just to stop the pirates, there are other ways to activate(like FM09) without having to install Steam. It's all to save Sega money in the long run, with boxes/ disks/ posting copies out to shops etc.
They have been trying to get people to use Steam over the last 3 years with special incentives if you install with Steam. Yeah it may save them money in the long run, but I think they will lose money in the short run, with genuine customers deciding not to buy the game because of this.

Yeah people do love Steam and have been using it since FM09, but some people have not, so why just remove the option not to install through Steam?
Some people still don't use 3D on the new FM games and stick with 2D, where some people would say 3D is better and is the future. If SI just decided to get rid of the 2D, I'm sure some people would be unhappy.
So they leave the 2D option in there, as it does not hurt anybody. If you like 2D then play with 2D, if you like 3D then play with 3D.


It may sound childish etc, but I don't want a 3rd party program installed to play my FM game. And the 3rd party program is only there to make money, it's not there to make your life easy for free, I bet when you load steam up there are Ads everywhere for other games they want you to buy?

Like I said, I've got no problem with activating my game over the internet, I never once moaned about this with FM09, I thought it was a great idea to stop pirates.
But I do have a problem with having to install Steam, and having to keep it installed on my PC/Laptop just to be able to play FM.

I'm going to leave FM12 and stick with FM11 for another year. Hopefully with FM13, there will be another way to activate it without having to install Steam.
If not, then I think I will leave my beloved FM, maybe it's time I outgrew it anyway, so it would be a good excuse.

[Scab]

It does if you are in "Online" mode as far as I know.

Then I can confirm that to not be the case. I lose connectivity regularly on one of my laptops because I keep poking the WLAN on/off switch on it by mistake, and Steam will simply do nothing until I log out and want to log back in again. You can even close and launch games freely until logging out. I'm not sure if the login session will eventually expire, but for the hours or so I've been offline it's worked fine.

[seagull84]

The game requires an internet connection to authenticate. So if someone has no internet connection, nor the possibility of getting one (such as a hotspot), then no.



I spoke about that at the bottom of my post - it's something that is an unanswered question that I don't know the answer to, that hopefully SEGA will find out and get back to people on. In South Korea particularly, the game will be available via Steam, although the Korean releases are often later than those in the West. Whether you'll be able to buy the UK version, or not, is something that SEGA need to answer.

You're a legend Miles. Thank you very much for that response, made my day hearing that it will be available over here in Korea, have been worried all weekend! Will just have to keep on at Sega about the details of it.

Thanks a lot, keep up the good work.

[Miles Jacobson]

Miles: Thanks for taking the time to reply. There's a few points in there that I concur with and a few that will only spark further debate, possibly over the best place to buy a seed-free sandwich.

However you have posted two questions that need answering. I would be grateful if you could answer these two as well, as they are important in relation to the customer experience using Steam:

1) "Can we download a patch from any other source rather than Steam's auto update feature"

2) "Can SI/SEGA assure us that when a user activates the game, Steam will not automatically download a patch"?
Because IIRC, people firing up the most recent Total War found themselves downloading a 1GB file when activating. Which might not be an issue for those blessed with superfast broadband connections, but even with FM 'relatively small' updates: for people on relatively slow connections it's a pain, for people with dowwnload limits it's an expensive mistake, and for people on dial-up it'll be an absolute nightmare. And it will render their purchase unplayable until they are able to complete the patch download.

3) Can you assure your customers that all patches will be 100% save game compatible in all territories? Because all hell will break loose if a patch that people have no choice whether to install or not crashes or unbalances their long-term saves.

1) No - the patches would only work going through that system.
2) I'm pretty sure there is a way to stop this, and that's been put on this thread, but it'll be looked into and if there is a way, we'll let you know when we build up an FAQ.
3) I can assure that we always do our level best to ensure that that is the case, and I don't think we've had a patch for many, many years that has required a new game to be started. I can't recall that happening at all in my time here.

[afced7]

This forum being the teacup you mean?

You're clearly unfamiliar with figurative speech.

How many of all the people who don't know of this decision are likely to be disappointed come purchase time, to see the activation requirements or worse still not see them till it's too late

Miles stated that the requirements will be made extremely clear, SI can't be held responsible for people's negligence or inability to read.

There's a couple of potentially many storms outside the teacup

This makes sense [ ]

and quite frankly I am disgusted with your "I'm Alright Jack" attitude

I don't care. Frankly I'm a little amused by your attitude.

[Cougar2010]

Then I can confirm that to not be the case. I lose connectivity regularly on one of my laptops because I keep poking the WLAN on/off switch on it by mistake, and Steam will simply do nothing until I log out and want to log back in again. You can even close and launch games freely until logging out. I'm not sure if the login session will eventually expire, but for the hours or so I've been offline it's worked fine.

Yes I've just tested it and it seems to carry on ok.

[Miles Jacobson]

Miles; even though Valve might be easy to work with for you guys, doesn't mean they're easy to work from a customer perspective. You do remember us, the customers right? Steam's support is notoriously horrible, and there is absolutely nothing SEGA can help me with if there is any problems with my Steam client (which there is, a lot).

And if the argument is that Steam would prevent pirates from releasing the game earlier than release date - release it on Steam first, and then release it conventionally after a week or so = problem solved.

As for your first point, you can get in touch with SEGA's customer support if there are issues with the client that the game is being installed via, and they will do their best to help you, even if that means them talking to Steam if they don't know the answer themselves.

They wouldn't be able to help with account specific enquiries though, under the data protection act.

I don't like the fact that we have to keep Steam installed after activating..

I don't mind having to activate the game, saves SI and Sega money and stops pirates.

But why can't it be like FM09? Where we could register the game online over the internet, without having to install steam..

Because, simply, there isn't a system out there that was available for us to use that would offer the protection needed, and not be obtrusive to the customer.

The system used with FM2009 isn't available for us to use anymore, not because the company went bust as had been suggestions on this thread, but because of a patent issue which made them change their business focus.

[dafuge]

If the move to Steam is in order to reduce pre-release or early piracy of FM12, will there be any plans to remove the need for Steam after a while?

[PW]

As for your first point, you can get in touch with SEGA's customer support if there are issues with the client that the game is being installed via, and they will do their best to help you, even if that means them talking to Steam if they don't know the answer themselves.

They wouldn't be able to help with account specific enquiries though, under the data protection act.



Because, simply, there isn't a system out there that was available for us to use that would offer the protection needed, and not be obtrusive to the customer.

The system used with FM2009 isn't available for us to use anymore, not because the company went bust as had been suggestions on this thread, but because of a patent issue which made them change their business focus.

Steam customer support in my opinion is rubbish and very very slow.................Sega's isn't much better in my opinion and when I have had to use it................pile on the fact that everyone will be getting the game in the same period could = massive problems and poor customer service with the game unplayable.

There are other options out there you just haven't chosen them and I don't think you have put your customers anywhere near the centre of the circle you have drawn, you have put your greed dead centre and sod everyone else if they don't like what you can offer.

You are penalising the legal users of the game for the pirates, thanks.

[milnerpoint]

It does if you are in "Online" mode as far as I know.

i just turned my wifi off when fm was running and did not get kicked out, the issue you would have would be starting the game again if you closed it down. Hopefully that eases one or two concerns

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Personally I don't think thats enough.

If it was my product I would want customers to know they don't just need an internet connection but they need a specific piece of software which is provided on the disc?

This, absolutely.

[Miles Jacobson]

If the move to Steam is in order to reduce pre-release or early piracy of FM12, will there be any plans to remove the need for Steam after a while?

We removed the need for Uniloc in FM09 by releasing a patch much later on. But it's different with Steam, because it's intertwined with the game, so it's unlikely, unless Steam was to shut down.

[leftback in the changing room]

2) I'm pretty sure there is a way to stop this, and that's been put on this thread, but it'll be looked into and if there is a way, we'll let you know when we build up an FAQ.

This question hasn't been answered. It is possible to change your settings so that the game doesn't automatically update, once it has been installed and sitting on the hard drive for a while. What isn't clear is that will you be able to avoid Steam downloading the most recent patch as soon as you activate.

This is the difference between people with slow internet connections being able to register and play the game albeit in release version only, and not being able to play it at all. It negates a few of the workarounds, like using your telephone's data allowace as a pseudo-modem.

Still, thanks for replying and I look forward to seeing the reponse. I'm afraid that I won't be purchasing FM12, but it may make the difference for many other users. Steam is designed for people with fast, always-on broadband connections who want to total flexibility; neo luddites like me with low speed, limited download internet access on one fairly elderly-yet-still-capable desktop will have a decision to make. Best of luck with the release, and I'll always have FM07 to tide me over.

[nessi]

Miles I have been a loyal customer for the past 10+ years, a close friend of mine is a researcher for Italy and I was always happy to try giving a little help, I also tried to help with some translation issues (which still persist but never mind...) and always followed the community (had to sign with a new account after the recent "technical problems" as I found it easier).

FM is really the only videogame I play, maybe if I was a teenager I couldn't live without steam and all its wonders but that's not the case. In the best case, for me steam would only be a useless piece of software that needs to run in the background to play ONE videogame, and that's the same for most of my friends that still play FM. We're old and grumpy, I know.

Call me a paranoid, but I don't trust steam. And call me a paranoid, but I don't really like what I've read in their subscriber agreement. I'm not installing nor subscribing. Unfortunately this means I'm not buying FM12.

[milnerpoint]

Personally I don't think thats enough.

If it was my product I would want customers to know they don't just need an internet connection but they need a specific piece of software which is provided on the disc?

it will, just like it tells you that you need directx and any other 3rd party programmes that appear to be ok compared to steam.

[milnerpoint]

Call me a paranoid, but I don't trust steam. And call me a paranoid, but I don't really like what I've read in their subscriber agreement. I'm not installing nor subscribing. Unfortunately this means I'm not buying FM12.

can i ask why? This is not me attmepting to convert you before Akter gets himself in a twist, i am just interersted what it is in the agreement you would not sign.

[Wakers]

Thanks for answering Miles. Glad you weren't hurt in that accident.

As I've said, I don't like the removal of choice from the customers. I'll still be purchasing and installing via Steam, even though I don't like the decision. Hopefully in the next couple of years a better alternative comes up that brings back some choice to the customers.

Well done for insisting on the "requires internet connection to activate" note being slabbed on the front of the pack. Not enough publishers do this.

Regarding the Steam licensing agreement - it has quite a few lines that are very, very scary but are mostly there just to cover themselves from class action lawsuits in the US. Honestly, if people read the license agreement for anything they would think twice about installing it/purchasing it. That applies to Operating Systems, games consoles, office software and so on.

[PW]

Miles I have been a loyal customer for the past 10+ years, a close friend of mine is a researcher for Italy and I was always happy to try giving a little help, I also tried to help with some translation issues (which still persist but never mind...) and always followed the community (had to sign with a new account after the recent "technical problems" as I found it easier).

FM is really the only videogame I play, maybe if I was a teenager I couldn't live without steam and all its wonders but that's not the case. In the best case, for me steam would only be a useless piece of software that needs to run in the background to play ONE videogame, and that's the same for most of my friends that still play FM. We're old and grumpy, I know.

Call me a paranoid, but I don't trust steam. And call me a paranoid, but I don't really like what I've read in their subscriber agreement. I'm not installing nor subscribing. Unfortunately this means I'm not buying FM12.

Well put and all very valid points, but you don't count anymore mate didn't you know!

[SRKI]

Miles thanx for replaying and clarifying some things
Now yesterday I said I will buy the game for sure but after my experiment this morning I'm putting my decision on hold the reason is:
I have tried installing a game via STEAM (Dirt 3 got a free voucher when a I bought a new GPU) and I am having problems and can't play the game so until I manage to get the game running well no FM 12 for me this year because it costs a lot for me

[Miles Jacobson]

You are penalising the legal users of the game for the pirates, thanks.

Unfortunately, that's true. It's also unfortunately true throughout society, and has been for many years, when it comes to protecting anything, whether that be software, or anyone's property or possessions. To get insurance against theft in my home (which I need, due to a tiny minority of people wanting to steal other people's possessions), I have to get locks put onto my doors. If I lose my keys, that stops me getting into my house.

I wish we didn't have to have any kind of software protection, period. It costs, in both time and money, and is inconvenient for both users, and the publisher. But whilst there are still people out there who believe they have a right to pirate our work, paid for by SEGA's investment, then there will be a need for there to be protection. Particularly when we provide such a lengthy demo which negates the vast majority of reasons oft given for piracy.

[SRKI]

Well put and all very valid points, but you don't count anymore mate didn't you know!

It looks like the older costumers are not wanted any more

[Scab]

I have tried installing a game via STEAM (Dirt 3 got a free voucher when a I bought a new GPU) and I am having problems and can't play the game so until I manage to get the game running well no FM 12 for me this year because it costs a lot for me

If you want help I think plenty of people here would be happy to hear about your issue and suggest fixes.

[phnompenhandy]

If the move to Steam is in order to reduce pre-release or early piracy of FM12, will there be any plans to remove the need for Steam after a while?

My thoughts too. Miles has focussed on the problem of pirated games being available before the official release. So would SI/SEGA be in favour of waiting one month and then making the game suitable to play out of the box without Steam activation?

[Wakers]

Unfortunately, that's true. It's also unfortunately true throughout society, and has been for many years, when it comes to protecting anything, whether that be software, or anyone's property or possessions. To get insurance against theft in my home (which I need, due to a tiny minority of people wanting to steal other people's possessions), I have to get locks put onto my doors. If I lose my keys, that stops me getting into my house.

I wish we didn't have to have any kind of software protection, period. It costs, in both time and money, and is inconvenient for both users, and the publisher. But whilst there are still people out there who believe they have a right to pirate our work, paid for by SEGA's investment, then there will be a need for there to be protection. Particularly when we provide such a lengthy demo which negates the vast majority of reasons oft given for piracy.

I don't really see why Steam can't make a much smaller application that is there just for the purpose of activating a game once, and then making that game available to play on the computer.

There are always going to be problems when someone has to have an application running whenever they want to do something else, particularly one that can be changed by a number of other applications.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

As for your first point, you can get in touch with SEGA's customer support if there are issues with the client that the game is being installed via, and they will do their best to help you, even if that means them talking to Steam if they don't know the answer themselves.

They wouldn't be able to help with account specific enquiries though, under the data protection act.



Because, simply, there isn't a system out there that was available for us to use that would offer the protection needed, and not be obtrusive to the customer.

The system used with FM2009 isn't available for us to use anymore, not because the company went bust as had been suggestions on this thread, but because of a patent issue which made them change their business focus.

How is the system you have chosen not obtrusive to the customer?

[PW]

Unfortunately, that's true. It's also unfortunately true throughout society, and has been for many years, when it comes to protecting anything, whether that be software, or anyone's property or possessions. To get insurance against theft in my home (which I need, due to a tiny minority of people wanting to steal other people's possessions), I have to get locks put onto my doors. If I lose my keys, that stops me getting into my house.

I wish we didn't have to have any kind of software protection, period. It costs, in both time and money, and is inconvenient for both users, and the publisher. But whilst there are still people out there who believe they have a right to pirate our work, paid for by SEGA's investment, then there will be a need for there to be protection. Particularly when we provide such a lengthy demo which negates the vast majority of reasons oft given for piracy.

Then devise a system that doesn't force people to use Steam all the time or a water down version of Steam or the variety of other ways you can use to register a product without all the hassle you are making.

Another suggestion, what were the other methods put to you Miles? Ever thought it would have been nice to ask the Community what they thought of the offers Sega put on the table? Maybe a poll, maybe just some suggestions or a nice polite warning EARLIER that this was going to happen and how could we come to a suitable solution.

I think you underestimate how much this game comes from the Community and all the free time people put into it and you will definately encourage people the other way to avoid using Steam due to how many people dislike the system.

[data6930]

Absolutely spot on, in a previous post I asked the question will there be a clear indication in large text on the front of the retail box stating that you will need a 3rd party platform Steam to play the game or will it be in text on the back that is so small no one can read it, Miles perhaps you could answer that one.

I'm disgusted in this change, it didn't work with FM2009 so why do you think it will work with FM2012.

Sadly I am another who will not be buying the game.

The SEGA site and many of the pre-sales sites have no information whatsoever about having to activate the game via the internet and ONLY via Steam.
Great customer service there so the people already pre-purchased the game thinking it is the same as usual will have a big surprise won't they!

[RorysRocketThrow]

Well I guess that's pretty much that.

I've re-tried Steam over this weekend and some of my previous concerns are still there with that piece of third party software. The analogy with DirectX etc, in my opinion, is a really poor one and does not correlate with this situation at all. DirectX is a third party graphics programming interface that games companies use to make their games. To compare that with needing a piece of third party DRM software to be able to play the game is completely off the scale for me. Nowhere near.

I totally understand why SI are going down this route but I have to say the nature of some of the responses over the course of this weekend, both from SI and Sega have come across as very off hand, almost aloof and totally against the original ethos of the original Sports Interactive company - in my humble opinion. To put up a 4% figure of people who might not be able to use it through lack of internet, plus a small number of people who are choosing not to play this time around and wrap it all up in a "well, we're sorry about that but.." package doesn't quite sit right. I thought the idea of business was to not close any doors for any of your customers? Silly me!

Still the decision has been made and so has mine. I will not be buying the game and will not buy any further until things change. Will SI miss me? No. I'm just a small number in the grand scheme of things.

All the best SI, I wish you all the best of luck.

[data6930]

Just a thought why not ditch steam and activation as well as protection and charge £10 for a download version of the game, i'm sure people would gladly pay £10 for an original version of the game.

No costs for protection, no costs regards steam and no manufacturing cost for retail edition!

[PW]

Absolutely spot on, in a previous post I asked the question will there be a clear indication in large text on the front of the retail stating that you will need a 3rd party platform Steam to play the game or will it be in text on the back that is so small no one can read it, Miles perhaps you could answer that one.

I'm disgusted in this change, it didn't work with FM2009 so why do you think it will work with FM2012.

Sadly I am another who will not be buying the game.

It is a joke, no site that I could find had ANY infrmation about having to have an internet connection to activate it or that Steam HAD to be used as the only way for activation. That includes the Sega site and the SI site.....................it may not have been released yet but people are already pre-ordering the game and contary to Miles indication of the game pre-order sales going up I would say it isn't due to this announcement it is due to the release date (provisional) being announced and being quite near and many people not knowing about this activation balls up again.
It is disgusting customer service.

[PW]

Well I guess that's pretty much that.

I've re-tried Steam over this weekend and some of my previous concerns are still there with that piece of third party software. The analogy with DirectX etc, in my opinion, is a really poor one and does not correlate with this situation at all. DirectX is a third party graphics programming interface that games companies use to make their games. To compare that with needing a piece of third party DRM software to be able to play the game is completely off the scale for me. Nowhere near.

I totally understand why SI are going down this route but I have to say the nature of some of the responses over the course of this weekend, both from SI and Sega have come across as very off hand, almost aloof and totally against the original ethos of the original Sports Interactive company - in my humble opinion. To put up a 4% figure of people who might not be able to use it through lack of internet, plus a small number of people who are choosing not to play this time around and wrap it all up in a "well, we're sorry about that but.." package doesn't quite sit right. I thought the idea of business was to not close any doors for any of your customers? Silly me!

Still the decision has been made and so has mine. I will not be buying the game and will not buy any further until things change. Will SI miss me? No. I'm just a small number in the grand scheme of things.

All the best SI, I wish you all the best of luck.

Direct X, sandwiches, and contents insurance have all been used to explain the unexplainable.................next we will have the shrimps quote just like Cantona!

[data6930]

Agree it isn't putting the customer first is it, without that custom the game would not be where it is today would it.

It is a joke, no site that I could find had ANY infrmation about having to have an internet connection to activate it or that Steam HAD to be used as the only way for activation. That includes the Sega site and the SI site.....................it may not have been released yet but people are already pre-ordering the game and contary to Miles indication of the game pre-order sales going up I would say it isn't due to this announcement it is due to the release date (provisional) being announced and being quite near and many people not knowing about this activation balls up again.
It is disgusting customer service.

[7Bestie7]

How is the system you have chosen not obtrusive to the customer?

That's what he said. So (correct me if I'm wrong, Miles) the issue then became which system available worked best and was the least obtrusive to the customer.

[data6930]

No pre-orders should have been allowed without all the full facts being available.

[7Bestie7]

Just a thought why not ditch steam and activation as well as protection and charge £10 for a download version of the game, i'm sure people would gladly pay £10 for an original version of the game.

No costs for protection, no costs regards steam and no manufacturing cost for retail edition!

Which is a sure fire way of getting MORE piracy. Well done.

[afced7]

Direct X, sandwiches, and contents insurance have all been used to explain the unexplainable.................next we will have the shrimps quote just like Cantona!

Sardines...

Unexplainable? Laughing. My. F******. Ass. Off.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Unfortunately, that's true. It's also unfortunately true throughout society, and has been for many years, when it comes to protecting anything, whether that be software, or anyone's property or possessions. To get insurance against theft in my home (which I need, due to a tiny minority of people wanting to steal other people's possessions), I have to get locks put onto my doors. If I lose my keys, that stops me getting into my house.

I wish we didn't have to have any kind of software protection, period. It costs, in both time and money, and is inconvenient for both users, and the publisher. But whilst there are still people out there who believe they have a right to pirate our work, paid for by SEGA's investment, then there will be a need for there to be protection. Particularly when we provide such a lengthy demo which negates the vast majority of reasons oft given for piracy.

Enough with the analogies, you can get your locks from more than one place, and if you lose your keys there are plenty of locksmiths to choose from.

This decision leaves us with a 'Hobson's choice'.

[PW]

Sardines...

Unexplainable? Laughing my f****** ass off

Ah right, well he probably said shrimps somewhere down the line too!

[SRKI]

Which is a sure fire way of getting MORE piracy. Well done.

Maybe not because it's not a lot of money and I think it's a good idea

[Huney Munster]

Someone asked about whether we can resell FM2012 hard copy after they have finished with the game. Can the game be deactived on Steam so the hard copy can then be sold? I know you can gift games of steam to people, not sure if this is true on used games or just newly purchased unistalled games.

[afced7]

Maybe not because it's not a lot of money and I think it's a good idea

Neither is £0

[Scab]

Can the game be deactived on Steam so the hard copy can then be sold?

It cannot. You can't gift games on Steam that you've played yourself either; needs to be purchased as a gift specifically.

[Cougar2010]

Someone asked about whether we can resell FM2012 hard copy after they have finished with the game. Can the game be deactived on Steam so the hard copy can then be sold? I know you can gift games of steam to people, not sure if this is true on used games or just newly purchased unistalled games.

No you can't sell the game on.

You can only gift newly purchase uninstalled games. The receiving person can also choose to pass the gift on as long as they don't open/install it.

[nessi]

can i ask why? This is not me attmepting to convert you before Akter gets himself in a twist, i am just interersted what it is in the agreement you would not sign.

the whole section 9 is basically "no guarantees, about nothing, forever".

section 12 allows valve to change any term of the agrrement at any time, but you get "informed"

section 13B I don't like how it's put, very ambiguous

then there's the privacy policy which is also quite ambiguous, like: "While Valve collects personally identifiable information on a voluntary basis, for certain products and online sites, Valve's collection of personally identifiable information may be a requirement for access to the product or site"

sure, it's free. First one is always free

[PW]

the whole section 9 is basically "no guarantees, about nothing, forever".

section 12 allows valve to change any term of the agrrement at any time, but you get "informed"

section 13B I don't like how it's put.

then there's the privacy policy which is quite ambiguous, like: "While Valve collects personally identifiable information on a voluntary basis, for certain products and online sites, Valve's collection of personally identifiable information may be a requirement for access to the product or site"

I don't like the T&C's..........alot of companies have similar(ish) type of agreements but thats fine if YOU are choosing their product, we wouldn't be SEGA/SI would be. That's the issue and if there are problems with Steam then we have to go to Steam OR...............ummmm maybe Sega Customer Service(!!!) will help.

I have alot of very good tech friends and their findings on Steam and their usgae of yor info is interesting to say the least and due to their T&C's not much you can do when you tick 'Agree'.

[SRKI]

Neither is £0

I know but I think SI and SEGA would have more purchases whit this method than any

[pigfacemonkeyman]

It is a joke, no site that I could find had ANY infrmation about having to have an internet connection to activate it or that Steam HAD to be used as the only way for activation. That includes the Sega site and the SI site.....................it may not have been released yet but people are already pre-ordering the game and contary to Miles indication of the game pre-order sales going up I would say it isn't due to this announcement it is due to the release date (provisional) being announced and being quite near and many people not knowing about this activation balls up again.
It is disgusting customer service.

And why wasn't this decision announced along with the release date? PR maybe? To dupe people into ordering the game whilst withholding essential information that might put them off? And lets be thinking beyond the internet for a change.

[PW]

oh I've come back on and my comment from last night has been removed. I was saying that I know someone who was working in corporate sales for Steam, how their sales 'line' was "we've researched (they havent) that you should be making more money from piracy losses, '2 out of three' games are lost this way (ahem! not true!). Why not license it exclusively with us and we can both make more money?' He also was saying how all the major games companies have chased them out of town and he was gobsmacked that Sega/SI went for it. When the insider says a fast one has been pulled, you know its bad. I'm out.

It was removed!!!!.......................wonder why!
Very interesting because as I have said before I know alot of tech people who have very very interesting thoughts on Steam and their conduct and the info they use on you but haven't divulged the details!
Seems you ave been more brave so well done!

[greenone]

I know but I think SI and SEGA would have more purchases whit this method than any

Just like Paradox...

[davidnolan13]

hi quick question.If people dont want to use/install steam and are thinking of downloading illegally the question is if you are basically buying a license to use the game couldnt you just have an option on the site (si or sega for example) to buy a license for the game? you may have an illegal copy but if you bought a license for it wouldnt that be the same as buying the game but not using steam? that way SI still make the money on the game and would stop people complaining about steam. i dont know if that would even be possible. i personally like steam and use it oftenbut i can see the frustration of the people who dont want to use it.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

That's what he said. So (correct me if I'm wrong, Miles) the issue then became which system available worked best and was the least obtrusive to the customer.

Since when did you become Miles' editor?

[PW]

And why wasn't this decision announced along with the release date? PR maybe? To dupe people into ordering the game whilst withholding essential information that might put them off? And lets be thinking beyond the internet for a change.

Well even if it wasn't to dupe them it makes it seem that way.
This could have been handled so much betetr with consultation, information available very early, etc.
Yet again activation has raised its head and SI/Sega can't get it right and the reasoning from SI in particular has been at times quite worrying that they have this much disdain for people and the Community that has got this game whee it is today.
No problem with people making profits but not at the expense of the customer because they may have the customer base now but believe me it won't last if this is how they treat people.

[afced7]

It was removed!!!!.......................wonder why!
Very interesting because as I have said before I know alot of tech people who have very very interesting thoughts on Steam and their conduct and the info they use on you but haven't divulged the details!
Seems you ave been more brave so well done!

Incredible conspiracy theories ITT. You should check out the 9/11 thread in OFT.

[Miles Jacobson]

That's what he said. So (correct me if I'm wrong, Miles) the issue then became which system available worked best and was the least obtrusive to the customer.

Correct.

Just a thought why not ditch steam and activation as well as protection and charge £10 for a download version of the game, i'm sure people would gladly pay £10 for an original version of the game.

No costs for protection, no costs regards steam and no manufacturing cost for retail edition!

That was tried by one of our competitors, where you could "pay what you want", with a minimum of £2.51. They no longer release PC games, which I think speaks very loudly.

Enough with the analogies, you can get your locks from more than one place, and if you lose your keys there are plenty of locksmiths to choose from.

This decision leaves us with a 'Hobson's choice'.

Actually, I was told by the insurer that I chose to use that I could only get locks from one company. So to get insurance from that company, I only had one choice.

But you miss the point entirely - if society was honest, I wouldn't need the locks, or insurance, in the first place. If society was honest, we wouldn't need to have copy protection on our software. But it isn't. So we do.

I'll continue to read this thread, but I won't be posting again because, as predicted by others, it's just the same arguments going round and round, with the same people making them. I'll leave SEGA to answer the other points.

As I've already stated, I'm very disappointed that some of you are saying you won't be playing the game this year because you don't want to use Steam. That is, of course, your choice as a consumer, and one we have to live with based on the decisions made.

[7Bestie7]

I know but I think SI and SEGA would have more purchases whit this method than any

Basic business economics. At what price does product A get sold at to make back expenses plus additional in relation to volume sold. If the average FM game is £30, do you really think that 4x the number of buyers will buy the game if it is £10? (3 times to have income equally what it was at £30). I highly doubt it.

[PW]

Incredible conspiracy theories ITT. You should check out the 9/11 thread in OFT.

No backed up by some quite interesting facts

[afced7]

Mmmm yeah you use the word interesting a lot but haven't actually provided us with a single interesting fact that your interesting tech friends have interestingly told you, which strikes me as rather interesting in an interesting sort of way.

[max-riot]

i can't get steam working on my mac it keeps crashing what am i to do???

[Scab]

i can't get steam working on my mac it keeps crashing what am i to do???

Contact Steam support. They'll likely ask you for additional info to find the cause of the crashing.

[7Bestie7]

Since when did you become Miles' editor?

When people decided that they would much rather misread what is said to continue this thread?

[PW]

Mmmm yeah you use the word interesting a lot but haven't actually provided us with a single interesting fact that your interesting tech friends have interestingly told you, which strikes me as rather interesting in an interesting sort of way.

There is a host of info out there on the privacy concerns, the database they have, and their terms and conditions..............I can't afford to be sued either so rather than be a **** use your intelligence and try to find out the interesting bits yourself.
I am giving my opinion based on my knowledge or frinds knowledge, if you think it is false no probs, if you doubt it then research it.

[max-riot]

Contact Steam support. They'll likely ask you for additional info to find the cause of the crashing.

contacted yesterday about my problem and still no reply

[giblets_of_fire]

Not sure if this have been covered before amongst all the boring repetitive moaning, but if we have to activate through steam will we only be able to do that on release day itself? So will those who get in through the post the wed/thurs have to wait till the Friday?

Not a biggie was just wondering, oh and for the record, had steam for 4/5 years and have no problem whatsoever, PC gaming would be in a much worse state without it

[mrstef]

You're a legend Miles. Thank you very much for that response, made my day hearing that it will be available over here in Korea, have been worried all weekend! Will just have to keep on at Sega about the details of it.

Thanks a lot, keep up the good work.

Iv just been sick

[pigfacemonkeyman]

When people decided that they would much rather misread what is said to continue this thread?

What precisely did I misread?

Because, simply, there isn't a system out there that was available for us to use that would offer the protection needed, and not be obtrusive to the customer.

Do you think I didn't notice the deliberate wording? It was pure spin.

[dafuge]

Just a bit of a general warning, please refrain from petty bickering and trolling in this thread. People obviously have strong opinions on this matter (which is understandable) but there is absolutely no need to get to the point where people are getting abusive towards each other.

[Ackter]

contacted yesterday about my problem and still no reply

I've been googling around and the only thing I can find is that it might be a problem with one of you drivers?

[milnerpoint]

Not sure if this have been covered before amongst all the boring repetitive moaning, but if we have to activate through steam will we only be able to do that on release day itself? So will those who get in through the post the wed/thurs have to wait till the Friday?

Not a biggie was just wondering, oh and for the record, had steam for 4/5 years and have no problem whatsoever, PC gaming would be in a much worse state without it

Yeah thats the case, you wont be able to activate it until it is avaliable on steam.

[Barside]

This thread is just going around in circles & if I'm honest is no longer serving any positive purpose.

We've had what everyone was calling for, a response/post from Miles, all that remains is for Sega to clear up the unknown aspect of activating the game in countries that do not allow FM to be sold, I see no point in an endless for or against argument on the merits of Steam.

For those that do not want to use Steam (I am one of that group BTW) then we need to accept that SI/Sega are not going to change their decision, this might change in the long to medium term but having a pop is not going to result in what we would consider a positive outcome. The same obviously applies to those who are happy to use Steam, it serves no purpose to question why I & others do not wish to use this option, granted some reasons do seem to be a little crackpot but there are people who do have genuine reasons for not wishing to use Steam.

[7Bestie7]

What precisely did I misread?



Do you think I didn't notice the deliberate wording? It was pure spin.

Whether you think it was deliberate or not, the wording is clue. They could not find one system which wouldn't put us customers out of joint at least somewhat. He didn't say that Steam is an ideal solution or that it isn't obtrusive, only that everything else that was an option was also obtrusive.

[milnerpoint]

This thread is just going around in circles & if I'm honest is no longer serving any positive purpose.

We've had what everyone was calling for, a response/post from Miles, all that remains is for Sega to clear up the unknown aspect of activating the game in countries that do not allow FM to be sold, I see no point in an endless for or against argument on the merits of Steam.

For those that do not want to use Steam (I am one of that group BTW) then we need to accept that SI/Sega are not going to change their decision, this might change in the long to medium term but having a pop is not going to result in what we would consider a positive outcome. The same obviously applies to those who are happy to use Steam, it serves no purpose to question why I & others do not wish to use this option, granted some reason do seem to be a little crackpot but there are people who do have genuine reasons for not wishing to use Steam.

well said, this could go on for another 18 pages without any change to the opinion of people from either sides, or from SI and SEGA. The bickering is pointless and will only end up with more bans and infractions, from people arguing both for and against. Lets accept this has happened, and see what happens from here onwards.

[Scab]

Not sure if this have been covered before amongst all the boring repetitive moaning, but if we have to activate through steam will we only be able to do that on release day itself? So will those who get in through the post the wed/thurs have to wait till the Friday?

Will need to wait. You can enter the key code in Steam prior to release to get the game added to your account, but it will not unlock to be played until release day.

[Huney Munster]

Someone asked about whether we can resell FM2012 hard copy after they have finished with the game. Can the game be deactived on Steam so the hard copy can then be sold? I know you can gift games of steam to people, not sure if this is true on used games or just newly purchased unistalled games.

No you can't sell the game on.

You can only gift newly purchase uninstalled games. The receiving person can also choose to pass the gift on as long as they don't open/install it.

As I will not be able to unstall the game via steam to resale...

So I presume when purchasing a hard copy of the game will include a licence agreement that states the copy of the licenced software is not resalable after use?
Or will I be able to create a new account on Steam to install the game and include the details of the account with the game on resale?

Although I do not resale my old games so this doesnt effect me personaly.

[greenone]

Whether you think it was deliberate or not, the wording is clue. They could not find one system which wouldn't put us customers out of joint at least somewhat. He didn't say that Steam is an ideal solution or that it isn't obtrusive, only that everything else that was an option was also obtrusive.

Because, simply, there isn't a system out there that was available for us to use that would offer the protection needed, and not be obtrusive to the customer.

[giblets_of_fire]

Will need to wait. You can enter the key code in Steam prior to release to get the game added to your account, but it will not unlock to be played until release day.

Oh well fair enough, the old 9-5 gets in the way of playing much in the week anyway

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I have a question I hope will be answered by a Moderator.

The original thread I opened, which had it's title changed to "Poll On Steam Activation", was closed at 2AM saturday morning by Neil Brock (SI). Can you please tell me when a thread was last closed by an SI employee? (prior to the aforementioned)
And what percentage of all threads closed have been done so by SI employees and not Moderators?

Cheers
xxx

This is that thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthr...eam-activation

[Ackter]

Brocky is basically head mod (as well as other stuff) - he does a lot of moderation on here along with the rest of us.

There's no significance in him choosing to close that thread.

[dafuge]

I have a question I hope will be answered by a Moderator.

The original thread I opened, which had it's title changed to "Poll On Steam Activation", was closed at 2AM saturday morning by Neil Brock (SI). Can you please tell me when a thread was last closed by an SI employee? (prior to the aforementioned)
And what percentage of all threads closed have been done so by SI employees and not Moderators?

Cheers
xxx

This is that thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthr...eam-activation

Neil Brock is also responsible for the forums in general, he's basically the head moderator.

[ronaldo_1978]

I can assure people that steam is safe and works well, I too had concerns when first installing and using it however I did and purchased fm11 through this method, My concern is for the sales of Fm12, The mathematics don't add up, People who have internet which is us lot who already buy the game will most likely still buy it, I do think even those sales will drop slightly has alot of people here have said they refuse to buy due to needing steam to play it, Fair enough that, But what about the the people who buy the game at their local game shop and who don't have net ? They can no longer buy and play the forthcoming releases, That's what I can't add up, Not many if any people will say "Ok because I need steam to play my game I will defo buy it" Infact from this thread alone we can see that will be opposite, I can only conclude that figures will drop drastically which will have devastating effect on money and thus on further developments on future releases.

[SRKI]

Basic business economics. At what price does product A get sold at to make back expenses plus additional in relation to volume sold. If the average FM game is £30, do you really think that 4x the number of buyers will buy the game if it is £10? (3 times to have income equally what it was at £30). I highly doubt it.

I don't think 30 is the number for back exp. more like 15 or 20 the rest is for SI and SEGA

[mantralux]

So let me just simplify what's been said from official sources then, because this is honestly what I've seen from my perspective;

Those who opt out of Steam can't play Football Manager, which matters according to Miles, but not really, as we're such a small minority that it will hurt SI less financially than the imagined loss they would make if the game was released outside of Steam.

Good to know.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Brocky is basically head mod (as well as other stuff) - he does a lot of moderation on here along with the rest of us.

There's no significance in him choosing to close that thread.

Neil Brock is also responsible for the forums in general, he's basically the head moderator.

Thanks, I didn't know. That will teach me to engage better logic in future. (Moderators aren't SI employees - therefore, SI employees aren't moderators, simplified.)

[mrstef]

abit off topic but do mods do this in their own spare time then?