A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[Kriss]

Downside is that if SI release a patch that isn't fully compatible with saved games that gets installed automatically by Steam, then all hell will break loose....

I have a suspicion that the method of distributing patches by Steam is another consideration of SI's. After FM2008 I had some interaction with Miles over the fact that patches weren't available as file dowloads from SI/Sega sources (only torrents or file upload site mirrors). In future versions the patches were more readily available from the official sites, but Miles made it clear that the bandwidth costs that came with hosting the patches were significant. Going to Steam solves this problem completely.

Yes, as I said earlier I doubt Steam have ever faced a demand for optional patch versions, maybe they should be exploring that possibility as the demand is kind of unique to FM.

[Kriss]

As the user has no way to tell Steam why they don't play, Sega will not know the reason why they didn't play it.

No but they'll get some kind of numbers from hours played etc, I'm hazy on what's actually available to them but i'd guess it's more than SI currently get.

[7Bestie7]

I think we can pretty much assume the main issue (asides from any personal issues with Steam) comes down to this:

1 - People want to buy and use product A.
2 - People get very annoyed if they are told that product A must be used with product B in order to work.
3 - People want product A to work, outside company issues doesn't concern them, so any attempt at explaining why product B is required is ignored on the grounds that it is being "forced" upon them.

There are quite a number of products out there, both electronic or not, that done the years have required customers to pay for something else to make it work. Heck, printers don't come with USB cables nowadays so there's an easy example.

And before the argument about how Steam isn't required for FM to be used, well actually yes it is. To authenticate and thus use the game you need Steam. In this version of FM, Steam is a VITAL component of the customer experience unless you break the law.

So, for coming years perhaps the issue isn't Steam but rather SI/SEGA either making their own version for customers to authenticate through or allowing an option of different programs (Steam and AN Other) if possible to give those crying out about their infringement upon human rights the chance to choose their poison.

FM 10/11 - Steam was an optional piece of software to run the game.
FM 12 - Steam is a vital piece of software to run the game.

Everything else in this thread is window dressing. And now, back to Doctor Who I go.

[sounder2]

Just read this...brilliant. The Steam sales people have pulled a fast one on Sega. 'Oh look how much money you're losing through piracy. You should be zillionaires instead of simple millionaires! License it exclusively to us and we'll make sure you get those '2 out of 3' sales we've researched you're losing, making money for us both.' Sigh, I cant believe they fell for that when so many...most other massive game companies sent them packing straight out the door (my friend used to work for steam in corporate sales - he is amazed they got FM on the books!!). Hung by their own greed and trouble to come. So long for now FM. I'll see you on 'rip'-side...

[Keyzer Soze]

I think we can pretty much assume the main issue (asides from any personal issues with Steam) comes down to this:

1 - People want to buy and use product A.
2 - People get very annoyed if they are told that product A must be used with product B in order to work.
3 - People want product A to work, outside company issues doesn't concern them, so any attempt at explaining why product B is required is ignored on the grounds that it is being "forced" upon them.

But common, with FM2011 (product A) dont you need net framework (product B), directx (product C), java (product D). Hell, you even need a OS like windows (product S**T) to run the game!
I really dont understand all these noise! In order to play the game you need severall "third party softwares"... and steam will be one more to join the list!

I'm not saying that all the people that are against and dont want to buy the game dont have that right! Of course you have... but have you really stop to think that you will stop playing a game that you love, just to not install a piece of software? It seems a bit drastic dont you think?

[7Bestie7]

But common, with FM2011 (product A) dont you need net framework (product B), directx (product C), java (product D). Hell, you even need a OS like windows (product S**T) to run the game!
I really dont understand all these noise! In order to play the game you need severall "third party softwares"... and steam will be one more to join the list!

I'm not saying that all the people that are against and dont want to buy the game dont have that right! Of course you have... but have you really stop to think that you will stop playing a game that you love, just to not install a piece of software? It seems a bit drastic dont you think?

Of course you need all of those things. But most of them have either been installed already or are installed when the game is and then aren't obvious in their usage. A lot of what the issue seems to be is Steam is an "obvious" program.

[x42bn6]

But common, with FM2011 (product A) dont you need net framework (product B), directx (product C), java (product D). Hell, you even need a OS like windows (product S**T) to run the game!
I really dont understand all these noise! In order to play the game you need severall "third party softwares"... and steam will be one more to join the list!

I'm not saying that all the people that are against and dont want to buy the game dont have that right! Of course you have... but have you really stop to think that you will stop playing a game that you love, just to not install a piece of software? It seems a bit drastic dont you think?

No. It's not drastic at all. When I want to use a piece of software, I would ideally only want that piece of software on my system. If it needs any third-party utilities, I will consider them on their merits one by one.

That's how you keep your computer clean, quick and safe.

[Abramovic]

Steam has been brought in to prevent pre-owned sales simple as that. My major problem with this is, the price has stayed the same.

When i shell out 50 euros for a game up till now i was able to re coupe money though trade ins.

[Keyzer Soze]

Of course you need all of those things. But most of them have either been installed already or are installed when the game is and then aren't obvious in their usage. A lot of what the issue seems to be is Steam is an "obvious" program.

So lets say SI would say something like "steam will be automaticly install with the game, like directx, and because of that the graphics in the game will be better!! extra-special!!!"
If that was the case... no problem for you with steam?

[nessi]

from steam subscriber agreement:

Section 13B - "Valve reserves the right to collect fees, surcharges or costs incurred prior to the cancellation of your Account or a particular Subscription. In addition, you are responsible for any charges incurred to third-party vendors or content providers before your cancellation.In the event that your Account or a particular subscription is terminated or canceled by you, no refund, including any Subscription fees, will be granted. "

eh?

[DeadPanda]

from steam subscriber agreement:

Section 13B - "Valve reserves the right to collect fees, surcharges or costs incurred prior to the cancellation of your Account or a particular Subscription. In addition, you are responsible for any charges incurred to third-party vendors or content providers before your cancellation.In the event that your Account or a particular subscription is terminated or canceled by you, no refund, including any Subscription fees, will be granted. "

eh?

Forget about this. you dont pay for steam or anything, and if your using it purely for FM, you wouldnt ever even come across this. This is referring to other subscriptions you may have made through steam, so you neednt worry about this...

For that matter, no one neednt worry about steam at all. All this fuss over nothing to be honest.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

But common, with FM2011 (product A) dont you need net framework (product B), directx (product C), java (product D). Hell, you even need a OS like windows (product S**T) to run the game!
I really dont understand all these noise! In order to play the game you need severall "third party softwares"... and steam will be one more to join the list!

I'm not saying that all the people that are against and dont want to buy the game dont have that right! Of course you have... but have you really stop to think that you will stop playing a game that you love, just to not install a piece of software? It seems a bit drastic dont you think?

It's more than a bit drastic, if you flip that around and consider that people are sacrificing something they love, then it stands to reason it's because of something important to them. This includes me, still playing FM10 and really looking forward to FM12.

[Matt_no_7]

I'm seriously tired of the same old reaction.

"Oh it just takes 5mins."
"You'll never know it's there."
"It's not a big deal, your just making it a big deal."

I have Kelly Brook ready to take you to bed for the night..... However, first i have to smash your toes with a hammer.... It won't take long, you'll forget about it when your in bed with her and it's not that big of a deal, they are only your toes.

Is anyone seriously going to go for this? No they are not. So why the hell should i download a Steam-ing turd before i play FM12?

An extreme example but what people still FAIL to understand is that the reason's for not wanting it are irrelivant, our annoyance comes from being forced into a position where it's either Steam and FM or neither. People don't want to have their options limited, if you like Steam then great, good for you, i'm sure it's a great tool for you but i have no need, want or desire to have it festering on my PC.

I've heard people say it's extreme that we'd give up a game we love for principles..... I find it extreme that some would give up their principles for a game. It may be something small now but where does it end? If you let people bully you once they'll bully you again.

[7Bestie7]

So lets say SI would say something like "steam will be automaticly install with the game, like directx, and because of that the graphics in the game will be better!! extra-special!!!"
If that was the case... no problem for you with steam?

I'm completely on the fence when it comes to Steam, I'm not happy with the idea but I'll be giving it a go because I want to play 12. What I was saying in my post is that the argument that Steam isn't a requirement for FM12 isn't true. At this present point in time, the software is essentially an external addon which makes the running of FM12 possible. I think that a lot of people would feel easier if, rather than it being Steam, it was an external piece of software downloaded from the SI website which locks a user's account information to a specific copy of the game rather than a 3rd party program. The two situations are essentially the same except for the origin of the extra software required.

Plenty of programs need extras to work and each extra connects to the internet for updates, can go wrong or mess up a computer. These extras come from 3rd party companies. The major difference between Steam and anything else is that Steam is an active program that the user is able to switch on/off, interact with and do other things with if they want to. One of the issues raised in this thread is this extra utility somehow makes Steam far more of an issue than say DirectX being needed is.

[Carmi88]

yes, everybody who is using steam gave up their principles, or maybe we are not bothered by something that does not effect you in any way, your just making abig deal out of It because you like being awkward

[seagull84]

Firstly I have no issues with STEAM , I've used it in the past to buy Football Manager (when I lived in England).

For the past 3 years I've been in South Korea , every time a new FM came out I always checked STEAM first, but it has never been available here. So, I always used gamersgate.com or game.co.uk with no real problems (byteshield - yuck!)

This year again it is not possible to buy and download through STEAM in Korea, so I'm wondering if i digitally download it from another site will I even be able to activate through STEAM? Or in fact do digital downloads have to be activated fthrough STEAM?

I couldn't think of anything more frustrating than having the game on my hard drive bought and paid for but being region locked out of playing it....!

Any help greatly appreciated, cheers.

(posted as a thread but this seems a lot more active)

[Matt_no_7]

yes, everybody who is using steam gave up their principles, or maybe we are not bothered by something that does not effect you in any way, your just making abig deal out of It because you like being awkward

Awkward, stubborn... I am both these things. I don't let people lead me down the garden path or **** in my corn flakes and tell me it's milk. If i don't want something then there ain't a person alive who will tell me different, if i don't want to do something, i ain't gonna do it, nothing will ever change that. I'm awkward, stubborn and strong willed, that's why i don't go for all this sugar coating like most will.

Steam may take 5 mins, but it's my 5 mins and things like this are rarely the end it's just the beginning.

[drunkpunk]

I'll most likely buy the game since for last two versions I've played via Steam (after buying a boxed edition). For anyone who is lost through the decision to make steam only I find that being sad. I think we had it best over the last couple of editions with being able to choose to have the disc in or install via Steam.
I don't think the decision will impact on piracy much at all. I doubt their will be a sizable drop or increase in piracy. This is because people who want a game for free won't pay and will pirate, whist people who want the genuine item will pay for it or simply not buy it (sure a few extra people may well turn to piracy). I can understand the hope from SEGA/SI that this will initally prevent piracy and hopefully those extra couple of days before it is pirated will have enough sales to outweigh the loss of existing customers. I just personally don't think it will. I can't imagine a person who was planning on getting a pirate copy suddenly thinking "oh those 2 days are going to kill me, I cannot wait so I will just buy the geniune version," just don't see that happening.
Again I feel sad that one single FM player will be lost because of switching to steam only. I personally don't mind steam that much. But if we had option of no DRM, no steam, etc and just install and play without needing a disc in I imagine virtually all FM players would choose this option and it does suck that we can't have that.
I know steam can be a pain at times. Especially when you've forgot that you left it in online mode, come back to your computer when your internet is down and you're stuck with a game you cannot play... that is very annoying. I've taken to setting steam to start in offline mode incase my internet is ever down. I do hope SI/SEGA stick a great big fat notice of instructing people how to start steam in offline mode.

[nessi]

Forget about this. you dont pay for steam or anything, and if your using it purely for FM, you wouldnt ever even come across this. This is referring to other subscriptions you may have made through steam, so you neednt worry about this...

For that matter, no one neednt worry about steam at all. All this fuss over nothing to be honest.

I can forget about this, and also forget about section 12 which basically allows Valve to change the terms of contract anytime (but hey they will inform you). It's free, it's good, it's steam!

sorry SI, I've bought every CM/FM since the times of To Madeira but after your "message" I regret to inform you that I will not buy FM12. Hopefully we'll be together again for FM13...

[The Welsh Lad]

Firstly I have no issues with STEAM , I've used it in the past to buy Football Manager (when I lived in England).

For the past 3 years I've been in South Korea , every time a new FM came out I always checked STEAM first, but it has never been available here. So, I always used gamersgate.com or game.co.uk with no real problems (byteshield - yuck!)

This year again it is not possible to buy and download through STEAM in Korea, so I'm wondering if i digitally download it from another site will I even be able to activate through STEAM? Or in fact do digital downloads have to be activated fthrough STEAM?

I couldn't think of anything more frustrating than having the game on my hard drive bought and paid for but being region locked out of playing it....!

Any help greatly appreciated, cheers.

(posted as a thread but this seems a lot more active)

Unfourtantly the game has to activaited through steam. So if you download it from another site you still have to download steam to activate the game.

[seagull84]

OK thanks.

But would I be able to solely activate the game through STEAM - even if it is unavailable to buy it from them in my region?

[Rubentus_Juventus]

this is ballssack

FM 12 is going to flop.

****ing stupid move SEGA.

[The Welsh Lad]

OK thanks.

But would I be able to solely activate the game through STEAM - even if it is unavailable to buy it from them in my region?

Someone from SI or SEGA will have to answer that because I don't know

[Philbaby]

FM11 had no required activation. You could install and either play via disc-in-tray, or register via Steam and then there was no need to have your disc to play. And you could access FM on any machine via Steam. Last year we looked for a method to combat piracy, but didn't feel there was an acceptable solution that was balanced the battle against piracy without penalizing genuine customers. This year we feel we've found that solution.

Blimey David..why hasn't SI continued with that process ? I mean...it worked.
Plus for those of us who are a wake-up to Valve we didn't have to keep FM2011 until we died !
On that point...if, like Valve, SI is buying the mantra that we don't actually OWN the game after parting with our hard earned, that we only have a license to use. (..smirk...) would SI be prepared to take our copies back for a small fee ?
You know.. for recycling the manuals and plastics of the item. Better that than having it lying around collecting dust forever.
Thanks in advance..

[Invis]

SEGA have obviously not researched how easy it is to pirate/redistribute Steam games, honestly at the moment it is less hassle than some form of protection implemented in the main executable

[kelveen]

People are more than entitled to give their opinions, we're happy to hear them (even when it's the same people saying the same thing over and over again! ) but Sega obviously gave all the consequences a hell of a lot of thought before making this decision. No offence to some people who have made comments in this thread but it's not a decision that would have been made lightly without a vast amount of research so it's be nice if you waited until release before you judge Steam as a 'not very good anti-piracy measure'. Give us a chance before judging the decision as a bad one.

I am willing to give SI a chance. Though, in the last couple of years, the installation of the game and making it run smoothly has been a chore than anything else.
I understand the decision made here, though i am not happy about it, i will give it one more chance.

I have never used steam, and i dont really want to, but i have no choice.

My question to you, if it is giving me tons of problems, i will not be playing FM anymore, until another method arrives. Do i get my money back if i cannot get to play the game through steam, as experienced by many of these posters before me?

Thanks (I have been playing since the beginning, and it is the ONLY game i play.)

[Germaniac]

What about if we don't have Internet???

[mrstef]

You have a choice where to buy it from, just not where to activate it. It really doesn't matter since you'll be dealing with Steam once for 5 minutes. I don't see the problem.

My problem is, i don't have a working internet connection with my laptop. Iv messed around with settings and it wont work.

Im sure im not the only one who has this sort of problem and i sure there is people who don't even have an internet connection

Now im going to have pay someone to fix my laptop and god knows how much that will be???

Iv played since it all started and im going to have pay alot to play the game. Is it worth it??

[MeekoHFC]

And what's the point in not installing it? You won't even notice it.

You are missing the point, it doesn't matter if you don't notice it. People shouldn't be forced to install something they don't want.

No-one is naiive enough to think that piracy can be stopped - but it can be fought.

If this measure is enough to make even a small percentage of pirates actually buy the game then it will drastically increase the amount of resources SI will have at their disposal.

I seriously doubt this will make a small a percentage of pirates buy the game, infact if anything they've just created more pirates.

[mrstef]

What about if we don't have Internet???

you shouldn't have asked that! You'll get replies like, go to your local library
or walk down your street until you find someone who has not put a password on there broadband

or oh my god you haven't got the internet

[mrstef]

I would love to know what Miles and co think about what a lot of us are saying?

Do you think they would even bother reading any of this

[BayernMB]

You can share a game within one household if you use Steam...just start Steam in offline mode - this is a legal way of doing it...in times of CD's you had to use an illegal crack.

[joetheref]

I'm sure Miles and other people at SI have been reading this. They may well agree that not having an alternative is a bad idea. The fact that SEGA have been doing this with other games (Total War) and that this thread was started by someone from SEGA makes me think that this was a SEGA decision that SI had little say in. Saying that SI will want to stop piracy as much if not more than SEGA so if they think this is the way to go to stop it (whether its right or wrong) they will do it and wont be changing their minds anytime soon

[mrstef]

I'm sure Miles and other people at SI have been reading this. They may well agree that not having an alternative is a bad idea. The fact that SEGA have been doing this with other games (Total War) and that this thread was started by someone from SEGA makes me think that this was a SEGA decision that SI had little say in. Saying that SI will want to stop piracy as much if not more than SEGA so if they think this is the way to go to stop it (whether its right or wrong) they will do it and wont be changing their minds anytime soon

Haven't you got a sunday league match to go and ref?

[joetheref]

Haven't you got a sunday league match to go and ref?

Is it any of your business? But since you asked I'm not reffing this season

[Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover]

I don't want steam! Not now, not ever! Hated it on FM09 and was glad when I didn't need to on FM10, 11.

If you wanted it this why then why couldn't you produce your own software to deal with it instead of using steam???

Its like buying a new laptop/pc and being forced to use internet explorer!!!

[mrstef]

Is it any of your business? But since you asked I'm not reffing this season

Jesus joetheref i was just joking around

Im sorry if i upset you

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

I'll be honest, I havent read any of the Posts in this thread since the early hours of yesterday morning, CBA - too frustrating, but I think it is sad that "we" have felt polarised enough to post 17 pages worth in less than 48 hours, surely that says something remarkable about the "controversy" of this issue. Although telephone activation was a nightmare in 2008 surely this should be an additional option for those who do not have the required internet service?, even if charged at a premium rate (provided it is all well warned).

If I was a cynic I would think this whole thread was a ploy to deflect daft questions about the demo release date ;-)

[Ackter]

12 of those 17 pages are the same five users poking each other with sticks

[RorysRocketThrow]

I have a question to staunch and experienced Steam users.

Further to my previous posts on Friday, I bit the bullet and downloaded Steam last night and left it running in Offline mode. I did this to check how much memory it uses on a laptop (my main FM machine). One of my main bugbears with it is that previously I have had problems with it both in terms of memory use but have had issues with game performance on Black Ops on a main pc (to the extent that I no longer play that game at all). Memory usage on a laptop was fine, so whatever the previous problem was on that front it is fixed.

My question is a simple one. Why am i getting pop-up adverts when the damn thing is in offline mode? Why does Steam in offline mode crash when I turn my router off at the wall? Why does it need an internet connection if it is in offline mode?

[norwich1982]

so does this mark the end of selling your old fm game on ebay if the activation code can only be used once?

[Ackter]

You can turn off the adverts by loading Steam, opening the Steam menu, select settings, select interface and then untick the Notify option at the bottom.

I don't know about the others.

[mrstef]

so does this mark the end of selling your old fm game on ebay if the activation code can only be used once?

I reckon so

We all miss out on £5 now

Im not being sarcastic btw

[mantralux]

Another aspect of all this;

Since SEGA and SI continue to reiterate that you would only actually ever need Steam for 5 seconds - connecting to the internet and activating the game - after that, you can just put Steam in offline mode and essentially it becomes a pointless background process with no functionality whatsoever (except for increasing start-up time for FM, and becoming an extra layer of potential trouble that SI have no control over).

So then, if it's only an activation thing, could you not do your own activation, through a secure website? That way we wouldn't have to keep Steam installed and running in the background. Rhetorical question, of course you actually could do that...but that wouldn't put money in SEGA's pockets from Valve. However, I frankly don't care about SEGA's lucrative deals with game distributors, I'd rather SEGA focus on user experience and rewarding those who pay for the game by making our experience the easiest and most enjoyable possible.

SEGA can keep claiming they've thought this through, but the only angle they've thought about is how to make some extra cash, and make it easier for themselves to avoid piracy (Steam will change nothing though, the game will be pirated as soon as it's out). They obviously haven't thought it through from a usability perspective.

And it's a shame that the thread is a civil war between those who like Steam and those who don't - we're not against each other, we just have different preferences.

I'd also be interested in hearing the (lack of) discussion about this at SEGA - about the fact that this thread is mainly negative against their chosen "anti-piracy" system. Many of their customers are unhappy, but do they care? My guess is no.

[PW]

Another aspect of all this;

Since SEGA and SI continue to reiterate that you would only actually ever need Steam for 5 seconds - connecting to the internet and activating the game - after that, you can just put Steam in offline mode and essentially it becomes a pointless background process with no functionality whatsoever (except for increasing start-up time for FM, and becoming an extra layer of potential trouble that SI have no control over).

So then, if it's only an activation thing, could you not do your own activation, through a secure website? That way we wouldn't have to keep Steam installed and running in the background. Rhetorical question, of course you actually could do that...but that wouldn't put money in SEGA's pockets from Valve. However, I frankly don't care about SEGA's lucrative deals with game distributors, I'd rather SEGA focus on user experience and rewarding those who pay for the game by making our experience the easiest and most enjoyable possible.

SEGA can keep claiming they've thought this through, but the only angle they've thought about is how to make some extra cash, and make it easier for themselves to avoid piracy (Steam will change nothing though, the game will be pirated as soon as it's out). They obviously haven't thought it through from a usability perspective.

And it's a shame that the thread is a civil war between those who like Steam and those who don't - we're not against each other, we just have different preferences.

I'd also be interested in hearing the (lack of) discussion about this at SEGA - about the fact that this thread is mainly negative against their chosen "anti-piracy" system. Many of their customers are unhappy, but do they care? My guess is no.

Exactly if this system is ONLY about piracy then why isn't another option being offered????
There is much more to this than just piracy it is a cash cow organisation like Sega trampelling on the community that has MADE FM and continues to devote FREE time to making the game better.
It may not be the biggest issue in the world but if people don't stand up for these small things then they will feel that bigger things can just be done as no-one will stand up for themselves.

[PW]

you shouldn't have asked that! You'll get replies like, go to your local library
or walk down your street until you find someone who has not put a password on there broadband

or oh my god you haven't got the internet

Exactly they don't care whether you have internet or not, they just care that you buy the game, that they get more money out of you, and that you remain quiet and say please while they screw you over.
I cannot believe with just over a month to go that Sega has announced something so controversial without at least getting feed back from the community that have put so much into this game.
No surprise that Sega once a giant in the games industry was destroyed so completely by it's rivals is it if they treat people this way!

[PW]

I have a question to staunch and experienced Steam users.

Further to my previous posts on Friday, I bit the bullet and downloaded Steam last night and left it running in Offline mode. I did this to check how much memory it uses on a laptop (my main FM machine). One of my main bugbears with it is that previously I have had problems with it both in terms of memory use but have had issues with game performance on Black Ops on a main pc (to the extent that I no longer play that game at all). Memory usage on a laptop was fine, so whatever the previous problem was on that front it is fixed.

My question is a simple one. Why am i getting pop-up adverts when the damn thing is in offline mode? Why does Steam in offline mode crash when I turn my router off at the wall? Why does it need an internet connection if it is in offline mode?

My understandig from other peoples opinions and some quite good tech people is that 'offline' mode (if you still have an internet connection running) isn't quite 'offline' at all.
By the way the next Sega announcement for tomorrow is:
'Before being allowed to watch a game in 2D or 3D there will now be a 30 second commercial before every game...................we thank our advertisers for allowing us to stiff our gamers'
(yes I am being sarcastic but watch this space!!!!!!)

[edwingray]

I understand that the idea to use Steam is to combat piracy, but if it's possible to play the installed game on any computer around the world, what is to stop someone from installing his copy ofgame on Steam and then giving say 1000 people his login details?

Or have I misunderstood something?

[data6930]

And the point of releasing a retail boxed version is..........?

I can assume that you will have on the front of the box in large print "You are required to play this game using the 3rd party platform steam". My guess is it will be in the smallest print possible on the reverse of the box in the hope people don't realise they have to use steam and Sega/SI still get a sale.

This thread now has double the responses that the release of the game thread had ..... that speaks volumes!

It will be interesting to see what those in favour of steam have to say when they encounter guaranteed issues on the day of release, every year steam has been a shambles.

Sega are running the show now, not SI and that is very sad indeed.

[mrstef]

I understand that the idea to use Steam is to combat piracy, but if it's possible to play the installed game on any computer around the world, what is to stop someone from installing his copy ofgame on Steam and then giving say 1000 people his login details?

Or have I misunderstood something?

That is a very interesting point. Id like to hear what people have got to say on this one

[Wakers]

I understand that the idea to use Steam is to combat piracy, but if it's possible to play the installed game on any computer around the world, what is to stop someone from installing his copy ofgame on Steam and then giving say 1000 people his login details?

Or have I misunderstood something?

An account can only be logged in at one place at one time.

And then a game on an account can only be played in one place at one time. So you can't share it with someone and play with them at the same time.

[mrstef]

An account can only be logged in at one place at one time.

And then a game on an account can only be played in one place at one time. So you can't share it with someone and play with them at the same time.

He didnt mention anything about playing with them at the same time

[mantralux]

An account can only be logged in at one place at one time.

And then a game on an account can only be played in one place at one time. So you can't share it with someone and play with them at the same time.

Not really true though - if you're both in offline mode, how will Steam know you're both playing at the same time?

[El Zar]

Combat piracy by treating all your customers as potential pirates.

I can guarantee that some hacker will get around the Steam activation method and then SI/SEGA will see for themselves the drop in users through Steam's monitoring system.

[Wakers]

He didnt mention anything about playing with them at the same time

Right..so if he hands out his details to, even dozens of other people - the chances of two of them trying to play at the same time are near 100%.

Not only that, but if Steam detects multiple logins coming from different regions of the world (or same country), or if it detects someone trying to log in to an account that is already logged in, then it will likely lock that account until they can figure out what's going on.

[The Welsh Lad]

FM11 had no required activation. You could install and either play via disc-in-tray, or register via Steam and then there was no need to have your disc to play. And you could access FM on any machine via Steam. Last year we looked for a method to combat piracy, but didn't feel there was an acceptable solution that was balanced the battle against piracy without penalizing genuine customers. This year we feel we've found that solution.

I know this post is from ages ago.

But something came to mind, if what is happening now with the activation through Steam wasn't an acceptable solution for FM11, how is it now for FM12

[mrstef]

Right..so if he hands out his details to, even dozens of other people - the chances of two of them trying to play at the same time are near 100%.

Not only that, but if Steam detects multiple logins coming from different regions of the world (or same country), or if it detects someone trying to log in to an account that is already logged in, then it will likely lock that account until they can figure out what's going on.

Sorry, good point

[Wakers]

Not really true though - if you're both in offline mode, how will Steam know you're both playing at the same time?

Because you have to go online at some point to login (i.e. the first time you install Steam.)

[SCIAG]

I know this post is from ages ago.

But something came to mind, if what is happening now with the activation through Steam wasn't an acceptable solution for FM11, how is it now for FM12

They probably feel that the balance has been shifted by the pre-release piracy that started in Russia. Piracy needs to be battled a bit more, so genuine customers can be penalised a bit more.

[Viking]

There. Pre-order of FM 2012 cancelled. You will not force me to install third party software on my computer.

[edwingray]

Right..so if he hands out his details to, even dozens of other people - the chances of two of them trying to play at the same time are near 100%.

Not only that, but if Steam detects multiple logins coming from different regions of the world (or same country), or if it detects someone trying to log in to an account that is already logged in, then it will likely lock that account until they can figure out what's going on.

In an earlier post SI confirmed that I could install the game on my computer, but play it anywhere around the world. You are saying that Steam would detect this and block it. So, which answer is correct?

Also, the number 1000 was exaggerated, but what if 1000 people only gave their login details each to only one person (the chances that they coordinate when they play are quite good), the effect is the same. In the past it was possible to start and save several games with different teams. If you have Steam can you only have one saved game at a time?

[Wakers]

In an earlier post SI confirmed that I could install the game on my computer, but play it anywhere around the world. You are saying that Steam would detect this and block it. So, which answer is correct?

Also, the number 1000 was exaggerated, but what if 1000 people only gave their login details each to only one person (the chances that they coordinate when they play are quite good), the effect is the same. In the past it was possible to start and save several games with different teams. If you have Steam can you only have one saved game at a time?

No, of course not. You can have as many saved games as you like

Yes, you can take it around the world with you. The point being that you will be moving gradually from place to place. What Steam looks for is someone logging in in Glasgow one minute, and then 30 minutes later they're in Bournemouth. Or one minute someone is playing with an account that's been created in the UK, and 2 minutes later someone from the USA has logged in to the same account.

Bear in mind, that if you have Steam running in offline mode, you can't switch accounts without logging into their servers.

[mrstef]

E

Except this already happens with pretty much every game. You just didn't know about it.k

At least it's upfront this time.

PS: For anyone who might have issues with Steam but who have perfectly fine internet speeds and download caps, give it a try. Try out Team Fortress 2 for example which is free to play. Or Portal I believe is also free.

you work for steam dont u. im on to you

[HonoDelLoce]

In an earlier post SI confirmed that I could install the game on my computer, but play it anywhere around the world. You are saying that Steam would detect this and block it. So, which answer is correct?

I know for both FM09, 10 and 11, I've purchased the disc, activated it through steam and been able to play it on which ever computer I wanted to.

At home, I have a laptop and a work-station. In all three cases (09, 10 & 11) I've installed with the disc on the laptop and then set my workstation to automatically install it once Steam had registred my activation.

In one case (I believe it was FM10) I was at my parents house for a couple of days, and didn't have my computer with me. I installed Steam on my mothers laptop, logged in on my own account and downloaded and installed FM without hassle.

[mantralux]

if it detects someone trying to log in to an account that is already logged in, then it will likely lock that account until they can figure out what's going on.

Well again, how would Steam know, if you're in offline mode?

[edwingray]

No, of course not. You can have as many saved games as you like

Yes, you can take it around the world with you. The point being that you will be moving gradually from place to place. What Steam looks for is someone logging in in Glasgow one minute, and then 30 minutes later they're in Bournemouth. Or one minute someone is playing with an account that's been created in the UK, and 2 minutes later someone from the USA has logged in to the same account.

Bear in mind, that if you have Steam running in offline mode, you can't switch accounts without logging into their servers.

I understand, but the examples given are equally as exaggerated as my intitial ones. As already said, if someone has the idea to "share" the game with his next door neigbour, I doubt whether this would make Steam suspicious. If 1000 people spread across the UK/World did this, would Steam realise what is going on? If not, it sort of weakens/defeats the "doing it to combat piracy" argument.

Just to emphasise, I am not condoning or suggesting people do this. As earlier posts show, my main concern right now is that people living here in Germany might not be able to activate the game at all.

[Wakers]

Well again, how would Steam know, if you're in offline mode?

At some point, someone would go online.

That and offline mode isn't exactly stable. It does try and connect to the internet quite randomly, whether you want it to or not.

[Wakers]

I understand, but the examples given are equally as exaggerated as my intitial ones. As already said, if someone has the idea to "share" the game with his next door neigbour, I doubt whether this would make Steam suspicious. If 1000 people spread across the UK/World did this, would Steam realise what is going on? If not, it sort of weakens/defeats the "doing it to combat piracy" argument.

Just to emphasise, I am not condoning or suggesting people do this. As earlier posts show, my main concern right now is that people living here in Germany might not be able to activate the game at all.

And you think it wouldn't notice that there are a great number of activation codes being duplicated?

Steam is not a new idea. I'm pretty sure this is one of the first things they found a way to monitor and take action against.

[zandor]

not seem to have learned nothing from the horrible Fm 2009

EA Sports creates these silly to try to prevent piracy of FIFA?
And Konami?
The answer is No!
What they do is play games so much that even with piracy exist just pleasing people who choose to buy the original version of the game

I think that instead of wasting time trying to find fancy anti-piracy techniques that will be broken by any cracker Russian 12 years old in two hours, they should bother to try and make a good game, so the date for the launch of the game he as little bugs as possible, something that did not happen in FM 2011 with the damn bug gtransferencias

Stop Inventing stuff that will hurt good customers, otherwise most will be the obrigda becomes bad customers

[adamstudley]

Exactly if this system is ONLY about piracy then why isn't another option being offered????
There is much more to this than just piracy it is a cash cow organisation like Sega trampelling on the community that has MADE FM and continues to devote FREE time to making the game better.
It may not be the biggest issue in the world but if people don't stand up for these small things then they will feel that bigger things can just be done as no-one will stand up for themselves.

If for example an option was offered to authenticate via a web page they would have to allow the following;

- a number of 'license seats' so that you could install on 2-3 computers.
- a way of recovering 'license seats' in the event that anything happens to your machine(s).

By doing this they are potentially allowing people to share copies and be able to sell the game on.

By offering only steam they do not need to do either of these things and so stop casual sharing of discs and the re-sale market, potentially selling significantly more copies.

[jjglvz]

Personally I'm getting sick of the hassle you have to put up with to play PC games (I don't mean FM specifically).

I've just heard that Diablo III will require you to be connected to the server at all times, even when playing in singleplayer. I was planning to buy that game but there's just no way I'm going to put up with that.

These days I buy the PS3 version of a game when available, it's just so much easier to install and get playing. In fact, the only PC games I've bought recently are Indie games and older classics.

RE Steam: I've never yet found a reason to use it, so if it provides no benefit to me then I somewhat resent having it shoved down my throat. Arguments about "technology moves on" are very disingenous - this is purely a commercial decision to use Steam.

My last experience with it was with Fallout New Vegas which also required you to register via Steam. I found there were still a lot of irritations and niggles in the system, nothing major perhaps but I uninstalled it as soon as I finished FNV.

Still, as someone said when defending this decision, no-one is forcing me to buy FM12. And there are plenty of other good games that I can buy instead.

[afced7]

What an absolute fuss over nothing

[jpwild]

So if someone has ISP trouble and their broadband for whatever reason goes 'down' does that mean Steam can not work and therefore games can't be played?

There have been cases with my previous well known ISP going down for hours.

Of course it's not the end of the world if such a thing happens, but I think out of principle it is wrong that I or anyone can't play a legally purchased game if I have trouble with my ISP and the internet goes 'down'.

[PW]

If for example an option was offered to authenticate via a web page they would have to allow the following;

- a number of 'license seats' so that you could install on 2-3 computers.
- a way of recovering 'license seats' in the event that anything happens to your machine(s).

By doing this they are potentially allowing people to share copies and be able to sell the game on.

By offering only steam they do not need to do either of these things and so stop casual sharing of discs and the re-sale market, potentially selling significantly more copies.

Or potentially losing a high volume of customers tired of being treated like they are morons when they add siginficant value to the game via the community and then get treated like criminals.
Why can't they have an activation scenario like Microsoft do or similar type companies like anti-virus???
Because Piracy is a side issue and money is the main motivation....................and judging by the SI response they don't care or can't do anything about it.

[Wakers]

"Technology moves on" is a rubbish argument to defend this decision to be honest.

Yes, of course it does. But I personally wouldn't consider it an advancement unless it makes things easier for the user, not more complicated.

By any reasonable definition, having Steam required to play something that is a on a physical media is a clear step backwards, rather than forwards.

Steam itself is an advancement in technology, but only when it relates to digital downloads - but even then with some drawbacks (price, software stability and so on).

[Scab]

So if someone has ISP trouble and their broadband for whatever reason goes 'down' does that mean Steam can not work and therefore games can't be played?

There have been cases with my previous well known ISP going down for hours.

Of course it's not the end of the world if such a thing happens, but I think out of principle it is wrong that I or anyone can't play a legally purchased game if I have trouble with my ISP and the internet goes 'down'.

You should be able to set Steam in offline mode if that happens.

[ronaldo_1978]

Surely there could be some compromise here ? My mate has no internet nor no laptop just a old pc that barely plays fm but he loves the game, How will he be able to activate his game or is it a case of he's stuffed ?

[edwingray]

And you think it wouldn't notice that there are a great number of activation codes being duplicated?

Steam is not a new idea. I'm pretty sure this is one of the first things they found a way to monitor and take action against.

I don't know. Have never used Steam and don't particularly want to be forced into installing it. We'll see what happens, but as things stand it seems that I won't have to make the choice anyway.

[repton]

What an absolute fuss over nothing

Why post if you have nothing sensible to add to the discussion?

[themadsheep2001]

What an absolute fuss over nothing

+1 So much of this has just been the same endless arguments from both sides. Sympathise with those who may have genuine issues when trying to play/activate the game,and on our forum we'll try and help themas much as we can, but after that I fall squarely in the "I dont care" section of the original vote. You will either buy it or you wont. The coming months will see how well/poorly it worked, and determine what influence it will have on their next choice of action.

[afced7]

Why post if you have nothing sensible to add to the discussion?

Oh so am I not allowed to give my opinion on these forums any more then?

[Kain]

After realising that I will not be able to sell the game after buying if I don't enjoy it, the demo is going to have to absolutely blow me away in order for me to buy it this year.

I sold 08 and 09 because I thought they were both absolutely awful, and didn't buy 11 at all for the same reason. I don't want to spend my money, find out there's some horrific bug that ruins long-term saves (again) and not actually be able to get my money back for it.

[adamstudley]

Or potentially losing a high volume of customers tired of being treated like they are morons when they add siginficant value to the game via the community and then get treated like criminals.
Why can't they have an activation scenario like Microsoft do or similar type companies like anti-virus???
Because Piracy is a side issue and money is the main motivation....................and judging by the SI response they don't care or can't do anything about it.

They have obviously taken the view that they will gain many mmore sales than they will lose.

Obviously money is their motivation. In buisness it always is.

As things stand they will never prevent certain forms of piracy but in turn the majority of people who turn to those forms wont be turned in to paying customers either.

What they are trying to do is target other forms of piracy (disc sharing) and re-sale which by doing this they can prevent.

Dont get me wrong I am unhappy about this too but I can see why they are doing it.

[PW]

Surely there could be some compromise here ? My mate has no internet nor no laptop just a old pc that barely plays fm but he loves the game, How will he be able to activate his game or is it a case of he's stuffed ?

He will HAVE to activate it via Steam so he will need to get internet access from somewhere, this could be via a library, mates house, etc but who cares when they sell the game.
Your problem not theirs.

[Katarian]

Basically everyone is moving towards online activations through Steam or their own method. Once the next generation of consoles hit, every game will require some sort of registration or need to be online to tie that game with a single account, to try and reduce piracy and (more importantly for most publishers) stop second hand sales. If you don't like it stop buying games published by the big publishers, you'll have to live with Indie gaming or give up completely. This is unfortunately the future and you either have to live with it or lump it.

[repton]

Oh so am I not allowed to give my opinion on these forums any more then?

If you read the posts so far this issue is not 'an absolute fuss over nothing'. Genuine concerns exist on having the decision to install third party software forced on them in order to play FM12. As a genuine potential purchaser of the product everyone has a right to air those concerns and then make a decision whether to purchase or not. It is definitely not a fuss over nothing. Personally i hope that SI/SEGA get their fingers burnt on this one. There deserve no more.

[PW]

They have obviously taken the view that they will gain many mmore sales than they will lose.

Obviously money is their motivation. In buisness it always is.

As things stand they will never prevent certain forms of piracy but in turn the majority of people who turn to those forms wont be turned in to paying customers either.

What they are trying to do is target piracy and re-sale which by doing this they can prevent.

Dont get me wrong I am unhappy about this too but I can see why they are doing it.

I understand the need to activate the game, I understand piracy is an issue BUT this is not the way forward downloading a 3rd party software, opening a 3rd party account, and having to use this 3rd party software to run the game (offline or online).
Many many other companies battle piracy with far betetr methods and activation without affecting people in such a major way.
Ill thought out, ill devised, and yet again another activation mess created by Sega/SI.

[afced7]

If you read the posts so far this issue is not 'an absolute fuss over nothing'. Genuine concerns exist on having the decision to install third party software forced on them in order to play FM12. As a genuine potential purchaser of the product everyone has a right to air those concerns and then make a decision whether to purchase or not. It is definitely not a fuss over nothing. Personally i hope that SI/SEGA get their fingers burnt on this one. There deserve no more.

I read the posts and then made my own mind up that this is a fuss over nothing, then expressed my view here. You're welcome to disagree but you shouldn't question the validity of my opinion just because you hold a different one. This is an absolute storm in a teacup, and if this is the worst thing to ever happen to the series as some people seem to believe then frankly SI and SEGA are doing a magnificent job.

[ronaldo_1978]

He will HAVE to activate it via Steam so he will need to get internet access from somewhere, this could be via a library, mates house, etc but who cares when they sell the game.
Your problem not theirs.

Well yea, Mate said it's pointless him buying it then which is a shame considering he loves the game, SI will no doubt come to a compromise over the next month, It would be a suicidal move to say "Unless you have net you can't play it"

[adamstudley]

I understand the need to activate the game, I understand piracy is an issue BUT this is not the way forward downloading a 3rd party software, opening a 3rd party account, and having to use this 3rd party software to run the game (offline or online).
Many many other companies battle piracy with far betetr methods and activation without affecting people in such a major way.
Ill thought out, ill devised, and yet again another activation mess created by Sega/SI.

And I agree that we shouldn't have to download steam to play.

I myself will have no other use for steam other than playing FM and I'm not happy about this but they have stated that this was the only method of activation they have deemed suitable.

My reasons above are why I belive they have done this. At no point did I say I agree.

From their point of view they will have estimated that this will gain more sales than it loses. After all most people will just buy it and install it without any fuss and they will probably record record sales. Only time will tell.

In combatting piracy they will never please everyone.

[Loversleaper]

Surely there could be some compromise here ? My mate has no internet nor no laptop just a old pc that barely plays fm but he loves the game, How will he be able to activate his game or is it a case of he's stuffed ?

Definitely Steam will make it incredibly hard for people that have stationary computers and no internet connection to be able to play the game - which is somewhat bogus for them

[jjglvz]

I found this page about worldwide piracy rates, I don't know how up-to-date it is. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...re-piracy-rate

What's interesting is that places like the UK/US have the lowest piracy rates. So apparently we're all being punished because of the piracy in places like Moldova and Azebaijan.

[repton]

I read the posts and then made my own mind up that this is a fuss over nothing, then expressed my view here. You're welcome to disagree but you shouldn't question the validity of my opinion just because you hold a different one. This is an absolute storm in a teacup, and if this is the worst thing to ever happen to the series as some people seem to believe then frankly SI and SEGA are doing a magnificent job.

Only the sales figures will say in the end whether they have done a magnificent job. Still a sad day for the genuine consumer when your freedom of choice is affected.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I would love to know what Miles and co think about what a lot of us are saying?

Do you think they would even bother reading any of this

I would imagine at this point they are too stunned by the reaction to comment, that or because it's the weekend.

Sega/SI have flatly refused to provide any figures to back up their claims which I find a little odd, however, There is a set of figures they must know, A)How many people buy hard copies of FM, and B)How many of those hard copies are activated through Steam.
B - A = C)The number of people who either chose not to activate through Steam or weren't able to activate through Steam.

This is the number of people that could possibly be alienated by Sega/SI's decision. Will Sega/SI please provide these figures? They can't be considered sensitive surely.
Are Sega/SI really willing to gamble on potentially losing that many paying customers? They obviously are or they wouldn't have taken this route. Unless this figure is very low they have made a big mistake.

[PW]

I would imagine at this point they are too stunned by the reaction to comment, that or because it's the weekend.

Sega/SI have flatly refused to provide any figures to back up their claims which I find a little odd, however, There is a set of figures they must know, A)How many people buy hard copies of FM, and B)How many of those hard copies are activated through Steam.
B - A = C)The number of people who either chose not to activate through Steam or weren't able to activate through Steam.

This is the number of people that could possibly be alienated by Sega/SI's decision. Will Sega/SI please provide these figures? They can't be considered sensitive surely.
Are Sega/SI really willing to gamble on potentially losing that many paying customers? They obviously are or they wouldn't have taken this route. Unless this figure is very low they have made a big mistake.

Those figure would be nice to know, however the fact they haven't been released suggests the answer!

[Miles Jacobson]

I was planning on responding to this thread yesterday afternoon, but whilst on the way to the studio I was involved in a car crash (no one hurt, which is good) and was a bit shaken up, so not the time for me to be replying in the calm manner that I wanted to to this thread.

This was always going to be an emotive subject. Any form of copy protection is. There's no conspiracy theory about SEGA posting about it though - they normally do so, as it's a publishing thing, not a development thing. It is their job to come up with recommendations in this area, but we were consulted about the various options available. This is by far and away the best one that was presented to us, from a user perspective, a business perspective and a protection perspective.

No one from SEGA or SI would say that using the system that we are means that the game will not be cracked at some point. It's bound to be. But with the exception of FM2009, every version of FM has been available to pirate before the retail release. During that few days, every year, retail see pre-orders being cancelled. Every year retail see pre-orders not being collected, even those with "free gifts" and where deposits have been paid. If it can be made that those people who legitimately buy our games this year get to play it before those that are pirating, that will be a good thing. If it can be that way for a few months, weeks, or even days, after that release, we do believe it will make a big difference.

We are also not saying that we believe that if the game isn't cracked, all of those previous pirates will buy it. I do not believe that 1 pirated copy = 1 lost sale. The vast majority of people who pirate it won't pay the money for it, certainly not at launch. But I do believe that a proportion of them will do. And those extra sales, for however long the game can be protected, will lead to an increase in dev budgets, and therefore better, or more, games for all.

Dave gave some stats out earlier which were slightly inaccurate. It's not the case that there are 3 people playing pirated copies of FM for every 1 legitimate customer - there are more than 4 people playing pirated copies of FM for every legitimate customer. And to the question on whether that takes into account people who have bought who play with CD cracks, it doesn't matter, as even if every single person who bought FM played with a CD crack, there would still be 3 people playing pirated versions for each 1 legitimate customer who has decided to install a 3rd party, illegal in the majority of countries, CD crack.

There are people claiming on here that the reason for doing this is just to kill the second hand market. That's simply not true - it didn't even come into the conversation when discussing protection for this year. According to the licensing agreement for the game, whether you've read it or not, it's against the license to re-sell the game. As it is for the vast majority of PC games. The vast majority of retailers who deal in second hand games do not trade in PC games, whatever the protection is. And the replayability factor of FM is huge, so second hand isn't something that has affected us in a major way at all.

One big thing that was taken into account when looking at the various systems available was how many people, given the choice with FM11 of whether to install the game via Steam or without Steam, chose to install via Steam. The results surprised me, with the majority of people deciding to install through Steam.

There've been questions about what I think of the reaction, given that it's 17 pages so far. Well, obviously I'm disappointed when anyone says they aren't going to buy our next release, and I doubt there's anything that I'll be saying here that will appease those people. But the reality is that those being negative in the 17 pages are mainly the same people - about 50 in total. The negative reaction from a few people is very similar to that when Total War announced that they were going down this route. And when Civ went down this route. I'm sure both Creative Assembly and Firaxis were just as disappointed to be losing some long term customers as I am - but that doesn't change the decision that has been made, nor change my belief that from the options we had, it's the best one for all.

We will, continuously, look for other ways to provide our games to people as long as it doesn't compromise the security that is needed. I've been vocal about how I really like the OnLive system, for example, and this is something we'll continue to investigate. That does require you to register, though, and does require an internet connection permanently to play, so certainly won't suit all if we do go down that route.

There've been many posts about the problem being the installation of third party software on your machine, but that's just a part of life when it comes to PC games. Whether that be Direct X, graphics drivers, Windows/MacOS, font rendering technology, web browsing tech or other middleware, anytime you install a game, or application on your computer, you require third party software.

People have also asked "what about those who don't have an internet connection". When we had activation for FM2009 which was done both online and via telephone, less than 4% of people, globally, chose to use the telephone route. Some of these people had a net connection, but didn't want to authenticate that way (as per the huge threads at that time). So, again whilst it's disappointing that some people genuinely don't have a net connection and might miss out, this was taken into account with the overall decision, and there wasn't an option presented to me by SEGA this year that didn't involve purely online activation.

There has also been talk about other PC titles on here that will get your money instead. I've seen the following being mentioned so far (apologies if I've missed any) - Call of Duty, Battlefield, Fifa Manager, FIFA, Batman & Rage. Battlefield, FIFA Manager & FIFA on PC will all require EA's online system, called Origin, and for you to register with them. Rage is Steamworks, as we are. Call of Duty uses Activision's new online system. I do not know about Batman's authentication method, or whether it has one.

You've asked how we're letting people know about this. Well, apart from the forum thread, there was a mailshot on Friday to hundreds of thousands of our registered customers to let them know about it, as well as telling them about the blogs and the release date. Since then, pre-orders have gone up massively with our pre-order position at Amazon in the UK (for example) going up from the mid 20's into the top 10, peaking at 5 and currently at 7, which is way higher than we normally are at this time of year. There will also be, front of pack in between the SI logo and the age rating, in big letters, the words "requires internet connection to activate", which was insisted upon by me for us to be able to go ahead with this. I will be chasing SEGA first thing on Monday to ensure that all retailers who have packshots online switch to the final packshot, rather than the one they are currently using.

I, like many of the people who aren't happy with the decision, am also a very principled person. There are certain chains that I don't eat at. There's even a local sandwich shop that I won't go to anymore as they wouldn't change the bun on a sandwich I wanted (the original had sesame seeds on them, and I have a nut allergy) when they'd done so dozens of times in the past. I am well aware that some people will not buy the game purely on principle because we have gone Steam only this year and, as I said above, I'm very disappointed by that. Despite my own principles though, I fully understand and support the decision that has been made, given the options presented.

I also think that Steam itself is fantastic. I have more than 80 games on my account. They are massively helpful at every turn to help us get the game integrated with their features, like achievements, and allowing people with PC's & Mac's to be able to play games on both systems. SEGA's customer support team will be on hand if anyone does have an issue, as always, on top of Steam's support.

So, that's my opinion on the 17 pages that I've read so far. As I said, it's not going to appease all those who are anti, as some of those who are anti will only be happy if the decision is reversed, and it isn't going to be. Hopefully, though, some of the points I've made will appease some of you.

There are 2 questions that I haven't been able to answer that I do think need answering, which are how do people in countries where the game isn't sold play, and what about people in the forces who don't have net connections. Those are things for SEGA to look into, and I would hope that they would get back to you on those.

[jakobx]

I would imagine at this point they are too stunned by the reaction to comment, that or because it's the weekend.

Sega/SI have flatly refused to provide any figures to back up their claims which I find a little odd, however, There is a set of figures they must know, A)How many people buy hard copies of FM, and B)How many of those hard copies are activated through Steam.
B - A = C)The number of people who either chose not to activate through Steam or weren't able to activate through Steam.

This is the number of people that could possibly be alienated by Sega/SI's decision. Will Sega/SI please provide these figures? They can't be considered sensitive surely.
Are Sega/SI really willing to gamble on potentially losing that many paying customers? They obviously are or they wouldn't have taken this route. Unless this figure is very low they have made a big mistake.

This will not take into account people like me. I use steam when possible because from a technical point of view it works for me and its convenient . What im opposed to is buying a game and then having NO CHOICE but to go through some third party to get access to my games. With FM11 i know that even if steam fails i can still install from the cd and run the game i bought. FM12 doesnt give me that option and as such is not worth a full price. Im fully prepared to pay up to 5 eur for a steam only game. It is after all only a rental with an unknown return date.

[Miles Jacobson]

As for people asking for actual figures on these things, the reason those aren't given out are very simple - SEGA Sammy Holdings, the parent company of both SI and SEGA Europe, are a stock market listed company. There are all kinds of regulatory issues that mean that those figures would only be given out in official financial statements, and permission would not be given for putting such figures into a forum post. There are also legally binding confidentiality agreements in place in many areas of the business.

[Lord Rowell]

+1 So much of this has just been the same endless arguments from both sides. Sympathise with those who may have genuine issues when trying to play/activate the game,and on our forum we'll try and help themas much as we can, but after that I fall squarely in the "I dont care" section of the original vote. You will either buy it or you wont. The coming months will see how well/poorly it worked, and determine what influence it will have on their next choice of action.

The fact that a lot of this (not all), is the same arguments and, from my observation, mostly against this activation measure, suggests there is a consensus. This strengthens the argument and SI/SEGA should take note.

[ronaldo_1978]

Miles I personally have no problem with using steam has it's how I bought fm11 and it's been fine. I just wanted to know if you will be providing a way for those to buy and play the game for those who don't have net and will there be a way my mate can activate his game on my pc?