A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[BayernMB]

No it was deleted, and that took a bit of legal savvy to get that done as well.
I've posted alot in last hour so read away can't repeat it all again.

Well, as someone said...it's a loooooong thread and today it's getting late, so, I'll maybe try to read it tomorrow

[Wavelberry]

You can play without internet connection...my provider is doing some upgrading and for last two weeks, I more often than not don't have an internet connection...you just start steam in offline mode. You can do the same trick when Steam servers are down. Of course you need the internet and these servers for activation, but after that you're off the hook.

I'm well aware of that. Maybe I wasn't clear. If you don't have internet access and you buy the boxed copy then you won't be able to download Steam first off si what I meant. It makes it very difficult for people who live in student halls/shared houses without internet access or places with dial-up (they still exist) or homes that might not have the internet.

[Ackter]

I'm well aware of that. Maybe I wasn't clear. If you don't have internet access and you buy the boxed copy then you won't be able to download Steam first off si what I meant. It makes it very difficult for people who live in student halls/shared houses without internet access or places with dial-up (they still exist) or homes that might not have the internet.

Someone earlier mentioned that the Steam client might be available on the disc, I have no idea if this is true though and it hasn't been confirmed by Sega.

[PW]

Going off topic but as no doubt Mods are circling, how do you delete an account on here?
There doesn't seem to be any option in Settings or anything similar that makes it obvious?

[Dune297]

That wasn't the question.

The question was "Would any update start when activating the game (ie Patch 1) before you had the chance to select the option you've shown above"

Before you even start installing it you can check it off, assuming you install it online through Steam.

[Ackter]

Going off topic but as no doubt Mods are circling, how do you delete an account on here?
There doesn't seem to be any option in Settings or anything similar that makes it obvious?

Use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the forum and ask.

[PW]

Someone earlier mentioned that the Steam client might be available on the disc, I have no idea if this is true though and it hasn't been confirmed by Sega.

Would be nice if they had thought of that before announcing it wouldn't it!

[PW]

Use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the forum and ask.

Cheers................

[Wakers]

If I'm right, when I put the Deus Ex dvd in, it tried to install Steam even though it was already installed. So I guess it'll be similar with FM.

[BayernMB]

I'm well aware of that. Maybe I wasn't clear. If you don't have internet access and you buy the boxed copy then you won't be able to download Steam first off si what I meant. It makes it very difficult for people who live in student halls/shared houses without internet access or places with dial-up (they still exist) or homes that might not have the internet.

I agree, that internet is a requirement, but there are ways...you can download steam installer somewhere else and install it at your computer with dial-up internet. Unofrtunately the technology moves on and always someone gets left back...it doesn't help me, that I'ma loyal FIFA or PES player and can't play the latest version without an investment in a new graphics card...

[Wavelberry]

Someone earlier mentioned that the Steam client might be available on the disc, I have no idea if this is true though and it hasn't been confirmed by Sega.

That would be good but they'd still need to get online to activate. It's an extra hoop to jump through. Easy for myself and others with Broadband internet connections. Not so for others.

[leftback in the changing room]

It can, yes - but if it begins a download before you get to the point that you can turn it off, as leftback suggests, then it could be a problem.

Cheers Ackter - that's pretty much exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Thanks to all those who answered, and I appreciate that I can run in offline mode and set my game to not autoupdate, BUT my question refers solely to the first activation. If Brian Poor-Example lives in TinyVillage, Somorset and has no broadband but a low speed dialup connection or pseudo ISDN line setup but works for BigCompany in Bristol with a fast pipe and lax IT regime, he can activate his game online in 5 minutes (allegedly) at home then download patches and updates at work and copy them onto a CD/DVD (or USB stick if the IT system is REALLY lax). However if Steam rolls out the first update when he tries to activate his game, Mr Poor-Example is either leaving his computer on for a couple of days or has a copy of a game he cannot use.

[PW]

Easy solution.
Keep playing FM11, use 3rd party updates to keep the game up to date with all relevant transfers.........await SI/Sega to realise foolishness of their ways!

[Dune297]

Easy solution.
Keep playing FM11, use 3rd party updates to keep the game up to date with all relevant transfers.........await SI/Sega to realise foolishness of their ways!

I have an easier one. Get FM12, disregard Steam is even there besides the first time you install it, and enjoy all the great features FM12 has to offer!

[PW]

I have an easier one. Get FM12, disregard Steam is even there besides the first time you install it, and enjoy all the great features FM12 has to offer!

Go away please if you can't offer anything productive.

[Dune297]

Go away please if you can't offer anything productive.

You haven't offered anything productive either. No reason why you can't just disregard Steam, as the offline mode and desktop shortcut lets you do that.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

It would be interesting to know how the reaction to this decision measures up to what SI/Sega expected or projected? If they aren't surprised by it, then they must have a lot of faith in their new anti-piracy measures.

[Wavelberry]

You haven't offered anything productive either. No reason why you can't just disregard Steam, as the offline mode and desktop shortcut lets you do that.

I'm not sure that's the point of those that object to Steam. It's still on their computer even if you don't notice it. It's like if you had a tiny microchip in your hand. Yeah you might not notice it but it doesn't mean it's not there.

[Dune297]

I'm not sure that's the point of those that object to Steam. It's still on their computer even if you don't notice it. It's like if you had a tiny microchip in your hand. Yeah you might not notice it but it doesn't mean it's not there.

Why does it matter if it's not effecting anything?

[Wakers]

Why does it matter if it's not effecting anything?

Because people don't want to rely on a third party service to play something they've paid for.

Steam has never been necessary in the past, so it shouldn't be necessary now. It should be a choice.

[sheeshy]

I don't want to use Steam.

[karlrobertuk]

The funniest thing is that the majority of people who pirate games aren't even potential consumers - they have no intention of buying it in the first place. I can't see this as being anything other than SI shooting themselves in the foot.

This is very true. and most research goes to show this.. The silly thing about all this is how does a pirate copy equal a lost sale if the pers. Simplyon wasnt going to buy it in the first place....Has been said many times before "if you want people to buy your software give it to them at a price which is fair and in a format that does not stop or hinder people from using your software. " In english Si let people use a cd and not have to use steam if they do not want to.... Simple really.

[Lord Rowell]

And what's your reason for not giving it a shot? How do you know it's not a great program that you'll find useful?

Dune297, if you check this and the other thread where the original poll was, you'll find I am a big opponent of the compusory Steam activation.

You'll also note, if you read my posts, I have no personal problem with Steam.

This isn't necessarily about people having bad experiences with Steam. It is a bigger issue for some of us. This is about people being forced to use software they don't want to - it is a matter of principle.

[Kriss]

Dune297, if you check this and the other thread where the original poll was, you'll find I am a big opponent of the compusory Steam activation.

You'll also note, if you read my posts, I have no personal problem with Steam.

This isn't necessarily about people having bad experiences with Steam. It is a bigger issue for some of us. This is about people being forced to use software they don't want to - it is a matter of principle.

He's serving a short ban so he won't be responding tonight.

[Lord Rowell]

SI have been pushed into a corner over this, they are being dictated too as you can well see by the opening post by a Sega member, something you don't usually see on these forums.

Well frankly they need to get out of the corner and fight if that really is the case. If one is in that situation, the last thing you ethically do is push someone else (in this case the consumer) into another corner.

No, no excuses for SI. Everyone is responsible for their own actions and behaviour - period.

[Snaus]

Will there be a demo out through Steam of FM 2012? This will be good for a couple of reasons, mainly:

1. People will get an experience of using Steam for the first time and then be able to delete Steam (and not buy the full game) if they don't like it.

2. To see if your computer can handle FM 2012 at all. Because there will be no way of returning your game once you've activated it and find out your computer's too slow, or give it to someone else. (I have a 2GB Vista PC with 256MB graphic card).

[dresden]

Here's a screenshot to help.

This is known to not 'stick' properly in Steam for some users. I've lost count of the times I set that to No, only for it to update all on its own while I'm not looking.

[sheeshy]

bye

i've been using steam for 3 years and never had a problem, jesus some people are so paranoid

Others have, and are therefore against using it.

[davehanson]

Well there was no answer forthcoming from my question about 5 hours ago - "Can we download a patch from any other source rather than Steam's auto update feature" - aside from Ackter giving as honest an answer as he could earlier on to somebody else: 'I don't know'

So let me try another tack: "Can SI/SEGA assure us that when a user activates the game, Steam will not automatically download a patch"?

Because IIRC, people firing up the most recent Total War found themselves downloading a 1GB file when activating. Which might not be an issue for those blessed with superfast broadband connections, but for people on relatively slow connections it's a pain, for people with dowwnload limits it's an expensive mistake, and for people on dial-up it'll be an absolute nightmare. And it will render their purchase unplayable.

There is a setting that lets you decide if you want to keep the game up-to date or not, ie if you want the latest patch to download automatically or not.

[Lord Rowell]

Guys, can we please stop pestering everyone who says they don't like Steam. They're perfectly within their rights to dislike it and don't have to justify that opinion to anyone.

Good post. I'm frankly more than fed up with the moderators who are belittling posters who disagree with them.

[Kriss]

If people are just going to go over exactly the same things over and over ad nauseum then this thread might as well be closed.

If you have nothing new to add (I'm struggling to think of anything) then why not all rest on your,laurels for a while.

[Lord Rowell]

If I may, a quick question for the moderators. Can moderators 'call time' on other moderators?

Cheers
xxx

I second this question.

It is one thing for the SI staff (paid or voluntary) to disagree - that's fine.

It is another issue when SI staff (as per above definition) engage in constant sarcasm and belittling of the views of their customers. Even more disturbing when they close a poll i.e. a democratic vote on the issue at hand.

I would expect such moderators to be dealt with. I run my own board. I've been an admin on another board, a mod on another. Such behaviour would not be tolerated on any board I've been involved with. For this to be tolerated on a board such as this, for a large community of a major game, is shocking.

[Snaus]

If people are just going to go over exactly the same things over and over ad nauseum then this thread might as well be closed.

If you have nothing new to add (I'm struggling to think of anything) then why not all rest on your,laurels for a while.

I had a good new question about the demo, a few posts above.

Will there be a demo out through Steam of FM 2012? This will be good for a couple of reasons, mainly:

1. People will get an experience of using Steam for the first time and then be able to delete Steam (and not buy the full game) if they don't like it.

2. To see if your computer can handle FM 2012 at all. Because there will be no way of returning your game once you've activated it and find out your computer's too slow, or give it to someone else. (I have a 2GB Vista PC with 256MB graphic card).

[Lord Rowell]

If people are just going to go over exactly the same things over and over ad nauseum then this thread might as well be closed.

If you have nothing new to add (I'm struggling to think of anything) then why not all rest on your,laurels for a while.

Really?

You thinking about closing this thread and shutting off people's voice?

The fact that you even think this as an option is disturbing, in a democracy, and from the point of view of SI as a business who probably want to engage their customers.

[davehanson]

Cheers Ackter - that's pretty much exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Thanks to all those who answered, and I appreciate that I can run in offline mode and set my game to not autoupdate, BUT my question refers solely to the first activation. If Brian Poor-Example lives in TinyVillage, Somorset and has no broadband but a low speed dialup connection or pseudo ISDN line setup but works for BigCompany in Bristol with a fast pipe and lax IT regime, he can activate his game online in 5 minutes (allegedly) at home then download patches and updates at work and copy them onto a CD/DVD (or USB stick if the IT system is REALLY lax). However if Steam rolls out the first update when he tries to activate his game, Mr Poor-Example is either leaving his computer on for a couple of days or has a copy of a game he cannot use.

Ah I get the point you are making now. I know in my un-installed games, ie games that are still in my library on Steam, but I don't actually have them currently installed, I can still chose if I want to keep the game up-to-date. If you download via Steam then I guess you can chose to disable that option as it downloads.

If you want to buy the game via disc the best bet would to install the steam client a couple of days before and ask on the technical forums on steam if it is possible to turn off updates for all games.

[aderow]

I don't want to use Steam.

As far as Football Manager is concerned, this is how I feel.

[Ackter]

Ah I get the point you are making now. I know in my un-installed games, ie games that are still in my library on Steam, but I don't actually have them currently installed, I can still chose if I want to keep the game up-to-date. If you download via Steam then I guess you can chose to disable that option as it downloads.

If you want to buy the game via disc the best bet would to install the steam client a couple of days before and ask on the technical forums on steam if it is possible to turn off updates for all games.

By the looks of it you can set it to not update before it's finished downloading, but have no idea if there's a way when installing from disc.

[leftback in the changing room]

There is a setting that lets you decide if you want to keep the game up-to date or not, ie if you want the latest patch to download automatically or not.

At the risk of treading the same ground again (and upsetting the mods, who are currently attempting the equivilant of keeping two snarling dogs apart) there's no assurance that you can elect not to autoupdate before activation - basically, if a patch commences downloads when you activate and there's nothing that can be done to avoid that, people on dial-up or very slow 'broadband' connections will not be able to start the game (see the recent controversy with 1 GB day 1 patches on, IIRC, either the most recent Total Wars or Civ 5 - or possibly both.)

I've not got a huge issue with Steam, and I concede that sooner or later I'll be forced to install it in order to keep gaming on a PC. I just wish that I wasn't forced to do so by FM - and a lot of people will be unable to play FM purely because they are being punished for broadband not being universally available.

(I think 2% of the posts I have ever added to this site are on this topic. That's almost as many as I spent carefully explaining to people set their fullback forward runs setting to 'rarely' to negate the 'unbeatable' 2-3-5 formation in FM07.)

And after all that, davehanson had already replied. Must. Type. Faster.

[Ackter]

Will there be a demo out through Steam of FM 2012? This will be good for a couple of reasons, mainly:

1. People will get an experience of using Steam for the first time and then be able to delete Steam (and not buy the full game) if they don't like it.

2. To see if your computer can handle FM 2012 at all. Because there will be no way of returning your game once you've activated it and find out your computer's too slow, or give it to someone else. (I have a 2GB Vista PC with 256MB graphic card).

If there's a demo available (and there usually is) it'll be available through Steam like it was last year*

*note: not confirmed by Sega or SI. Personal opinion.

[Kriss]

Really?

You thinking about closing this thread and shutting off people's voice?

The fact that you even think this as an option is disturbing, in a democracy, and from the point of view of SI as a business who probably want to engage their customers.

No. I'm expressing an opinion, I won't be closing it, nuance doesn't carry well I guess., I'm sure SI want to engage their customers, but not the same half dozen repeating the same thing 50 times
I do include both "sides" in that, in fact some of the pro Steam camp are the worse offenders.

It would be nice if either camp could add something new to the debate, atm it's solid repetition.

[Lord Rowell]

OK, two things before I disappear for tonight.

1. To all the mods (paid or voluntary), SI and SEGA staff who have backed the official line so far. Do you all really agree with the Steam policy? If you do, fine. But, I'll bet that there's a heck of a debate going on behind the scenes. I'll bet that some are uncomfortable with the line they're being asked, told, to take, by their bosses.

At the end of the day, you are all people, human beings. How you want to live your lives, and be, is down to you. You might want to think about actions and who you are. If you're comfortable with the line you're taking, then, fine. I'll bet some aren't, to varying degrees.

2. Where is MIles Jacobsen? This is such a major decision. Where is he? Why isn't he holding the line on this? Why isn't he accountable to SI's customers?

If there is one person that should be answering questions, it is him. The fact that he isn't (unless there is a personal circumstance), is disturbing.

[Kriss]

By the looks of it you can set it to not update before it's finished downloading, but have no idea if there's a way when installing from disc.

I don't think there is, I doubt Steam have been asked to make auto update absolutely preventable like this before, it's probably something they could do (and should)

[The Welsh Lad]

Maybe if they decided to tell us now that they were going to implement it from next years FM that way people would have had to time sort out what is needed to be able to play the game but the way they did it now is like a flash flood. A few days of sunshine (blogs about new feature etc.) then a torential rainfall that floods the neighbourhood (Activation Notice).

[Lord Rowell]

No. I'm expressing an opinion, I won't be closing it, nuance doesn't carry well I guess., I'm sure SI want to engage their customers, but not the same half dozen repeating the same thing 50 times
I do include both "sides" in that, in fact some of the pro Steam camp are the worse offenders.

It would be nice if either camp could add something new to the debate, atm it's solid repetition.

Thanks for the reply.

Re. your point about solid repetition. I know this is one heck of a long thread but I made a point earler that the fact, to some degree, there IS repetition of arguments, may suggest there is a strong consensus.

This might be considered stronger than a wide scattergun range of diverse arguments, IMO.

[jpwild]

I would like to start off that I condemn piracy of any media.

However, I would like to know the details of the research with regards to the post that was made commenting that for every 1 FM game there is 3 'cracked' games being used or something along those lines.

Obviously the term 'cracked' is very wide.

1) Cracked could mean a product downloaded illegally off the internet and used without paying.
2) It could mean a NOCD crack has been used on a legally purchased game. I understand this violate the terms of the EULA, however, this doesn't mean the game is pirated in anyway shape or form.

So I am interested in this. Does the research that has led to the 3-1 ratio conclusion include or exclude people legally purchasing the game, keeping it, but yet using a NOCD crack. I'm not interested in the rights or wrongs of that as that argument has been done to death on here and all over the internet. I am just curious to know a bit more about the research involved that led to the 3-1 conclusion.

If you don't want to release the research, may I ask why not?

[Nani17]

One question thougs. Cause i've never used steam before (only for demos) so i'm new with it... Will you be able to install game multiple time? Cause I often format my computer and erase all the hard drives completly would i be able to install game more than one time? or would i have to bought new copy for every time i format my computer (i know it sound ridiculous) ?

[Kriss]

OK, two things before I disappear for tonight.

1. To all the mods (paid or voluntary), SI and SEGA staff who have backed the official line so far. Do you all really agree with the Steam policy? If you do, fine. But, I'll bet that there's a heck of a debate going on behind the scenes. I'll bet that some are uncomfortable with the line they're being asked, told, to take, by their bosses.

At the end of the day, you're people, human beings. How you want to live your lives, and be, is down to you. You might want to think about actions and who you are. If you're comfortable with the line you're taking, then, fine. I'll bet some aren't, to varying degrees.

2. Where is [b]MIles Jacobsen[/b[? This is such a major decision. Where is he. Why isn't he holding the line on this? Why isn't he accountable to SI's customers?

If there is one person that should be answering questions, it is him. The fact that he isn't (unless there is a personal circumstance), is disturbing.

I can only answer 1. and the answer is yes, but my opinion is coloured by the fact I've never had an iota of trouble with Steam, it's irelevant to me personally as to why they've taken this course, because my interest is in being able to play my games trouble free.
I do have huge sympathy for those who have had problems with it and I'll do anything I can to help them get to my position, I think that's something SI/Sega and steam should devote resources to over the coming weeks.
I'm not getting into any arguments about "third party software" I'll only say I was exactly the same as those most vociferous objectors before I actually used it, and I now feel a little foolish about the inhibitions I had.

[Octavianus[GER]]

The only problem I can think of are licencing issues. Take Germany for example. We aren't allowed to buy this game via Steam. So we need to buy this game via import. For FM11 there have been extra steam keys to buy. Now guess what. Some people here in Germany thought they can make it the easy way, so they just bought a steam key. After entering the key the game was activated. But several days/weeks later the game won't start because it was registered via a German account. Sounds weird and I wonder how that might happen, but these are examples for possible issues with this steam-only approach.

Well. I can only say that I started to use steam several years back then and I had never any problems. Just thinking of other people who might have trouble establishing an internet connection on their gaming pc.

[Ackter]

OK, two things before I disappear for tonight.

1. To all the mods (paid or voluntary), SI and SEGA staff who have backed the official line so far. Do you all really agree with the Steam policy? If you do, fine. But, I'll bet that there's a heck of a debate going on behind the scenes. I'll bet that some are uncomfortable with the line they're being asked, told, to take, by their bosses.

At the end of the day, you are all people, human beings. How you want to live your lives, and be, is down to you. You might want to think about actions and who you are. If you're comfortable with the line you're taking, then, fine. I'll bet some aren't, to varying degrees.

We've never been told what to say, or what line to take - if you look back through this thread you'll see quite a few mods that are disgruntled with this discussion.

Personally I have no problem with using Steam, but I can understand why some don't want to. I'm also disappointed that it's made it difficult for some users to play and enjoy the game. However, if this succeeds in doing what SI and Sega are doing then that's all good.

[The Welsh Lad]

One question thougs. Cause i've never used steam before (only for demos) so i'm new with it... Will you be able to install game multiple time? Cause I often format my computer and erase all the hard drives completly would i be able to install game more than one time? or would i have to bought new copy for every time i format my computer (i know it sound ridiculous) ?

I would have thought it would be ok becuase you still have a steam account just have to download the application again, but you details will be saved on steam to show that the game is registered

[rancer890]

One question thougs. Cause i've never used steam before (only for demos) so i'm new with it... Will you be able to install game multiple time? Cause I often format my computer and erase all the hard drives completly would i be able to install game more than one time? or would i have to bought new copy for every time i format my computer (i know it sound ridiculous) ?

No you wouldn't have to rebuy the game if you reformat your computer. You just have to redownload.

[themadsheep2001]

OK, two things before I disappear for tonight.

1. To all the mods (paid or voluntary), SI and SEGA staff who have backed the official line so far. Do you all really agree with the Steam policy? If you do, fine. But, I'll bet that there's a heck of a debate going on behind the scenes. I'll bet that some are uncomfortable with the line they're being asked, told, to take, by their bosses.

At the end of the day, you are all people, human beings. How you want to live your lives, and be, is down to you. You might want to think about actions and who you are. If you're comfortable with the line you're taking, then, fine. I'll bet some aren't, to varying degrees.

2. Where is MIles Jacobsen? This is such a major decision. Where is he? Why isn't he holding the line on this? Why isn't he accountable to SI's customers?

If there is one person that should be answering questions, it is him. The fact that he isn't (unless there is a personal circumstance), is disturbing.

Its a saturday night...

[leftback in the changing room]

It would be nice if either camp could add something new to the debate, atm it's solid repetition.

One thing has been troubling me. I work with several staunch FM fans, people who are intelligent and computer literate, only play FM on their PCs... and they won't have the foggiest idea what Steam is.

We know that people that post on a game's forum are a (very, very vocal) minority of users. How certain are SI and SEGA that knowledge of Steam has penetrated that market? Aside from the one-off registration issue in FM09, which at worst required you to log on to the internet once and type in a code, all FM and CM games have required is that you put the disk into the machine and install it*.

*for the purposes of this post, I will disregards my personal travails with having to install DirectX SDKs or .Net Framework versions to get previous FMs running.

None of them have required you to install a different piece of software, or have had "Internet access and Steam Client required to activate this game" stamped on the box.

Will that not intimidate even regular purchasers of the game? And that's nothing compared to the loss of goodwill if the inexperienced do have issues with Steam.

[Snaus]

A bit of advise I'd like to give:

1. Do not (ever) use your workplace to install Steam and/or download updates. This will be cause for immediate discharge. Also don't do it if you're selfimployed or it's your company, because it could be harmfull to your ICT security.

2. If you're using public open wifi connections, like at McDonalds (other fastfood restaurants are available), be sure that it's allowed to download large amounts of data.

3. When registrating for Steam (or any suchlike services), be sure not to use your main email account, but rather an extra specialy created one. This will help preventing the hacking and lose of your main email when Steam itself gets hacked (like Sony's recently). And be sure to have a safety referral email account set up for your extra account in case you do lose access to it.

[GuitarMan]

I would like to start off that I condemn piracy of any media.

However, I would like to know the details of the research with regards to the post that was made commenting that for every 1 FM game there is 3 'cracked' games being used or something along those lines.

Obviously the term 'cracked' is very wide.

1) Cracked could mean a product downloaded illegally off the internet and used without paying.
2) It could mean a NOCD crack has been used on a legally purchased game. I understand this violate the terms of the EULA, however, this doesn't mean the game is pirated in anyway shape or form.

So I am interested in this. Does the research that has led to the 3-1 ratio conclusion include or exclude people legally purchasing the game, keeping it, but yet using a NOCD crack. I'm not interested in the rights or wrongs of that as that argument has been done to death on here and all over the internet. I am just curious to know a bit more about the research involved that led to the 3-1 conclusion.

If you don't want to release the research, may I ask why not?

JPWild, This is now at least the third time you have posted this question. Please don't post it again. Remember today is SATURDAY... its the weekend. The people that could answer your question may not be working today. Therefore, it may take time for them to answer the questions you have asked. They may be unable to answer them, due to the corporate situation.

Either way, repeating your question until you get an answer on a Saturday when it is likely that there is no-one able to answer it today is getting beyond a joke.

[Lord Rowell]

We've never been told what to say, or what line to take - if you look back through this thread you'll see quite a few mods that are disgruntled with this discussion.

Personally I have no problem with using Steam, but I can understand why some don't want to. I'm also disappointed that it's made it difficult for some users to play and enjoy the game. However, if this succeeds in doing what SI and Sega are doing then that's all good.

Re. emboldened section of reply. I recognise this - which is in part what prompted me to ask Q1 in my post (post 1558). Thanks for the reply.

[themadsheep2001]

Not to sound too picky but this thread was created yesterday and not tonight so Miles has had plenty of opportunity to throw his ten cents worth into the debate.

he was on here all yesterday and today untill 2ish

[milnerpoint]

One thing has been troubling me. I work with several staunch FM fans, people who are intelligent and computer literate, only play FM on their PCs... and they won't have the foggiest idea what Steam is.

We know that people that post on a game's forum are a (very, very vocal) minority of users. How certain are SI and SEGA that knowledge of Steam has penetrated that market? Aside from the one-off registration issue in FM09, which at worst required you to log on to the internet once and type in a code, all FM and CM games have required is that you put the disk into the machine and install it*.

its very possible like most games that require steam, that steam will be on the cd, so when you install FM you also install Steam, you wont need to have heard of it, and i would imagine there will be instructions for first time users. It wont be a case of installing the game without having a clue how to get it to work. After its installed you can start the game from the FM icon, again you wont need to know how to use steam at all.

[DSYoungEsq]

Just posting to add to those saying that this decision by FM will mean I will NOT be buying FM2012, and not because I don't want to use Steam (I already do for FM09, FM10, and FM11), but because I dislike ANY attempt at copy-protection that isn't self-contained in the box. It's one reason I stopped purchasing Paradox Interactive games; they used to have no copy protection, and I bought almost everything they sold, but now they use Steam to activate and I stopped purchasing.

In my opinion the effort to stop piracy is almost always doomed to failure. This is true for two main reasons: first, those that pirate a game are not interested in paying for it, so effective anti-piracy measures don't increase sales significantly, and second, all anti-piracy measures are doomed to failure, since all such efforts can be cracked. At best, anti-piracy measures simply prevent those unwilling to purchase a legal copy of a game the delight of playing it on the release date, hardly worth the gumming up of the works that the measures create.

I would recommend that the hierarchy at SI take a page from prolific and wealthy author David Weber, who writes the very successful Honor Harrington books. He has digital copies of EVERY one of his books available to read free on line. Hasn't had any significant impact on sales of his books so far as I'm aware; each of his new novels routinely makes it to the top of the New York Times bestseller list. In the end run, the best business practice is not to focus on the ones who steal, but focus on the ones who are your good customers, for it's the return of their business you are really trying to promote.

[milnerpoint]

Not to sound too picky but this thread was created yesterday and not tonight so Miles has had plenty of opportunity to throw his ten cents worth into the debate.

What would he add that the guys from both SI and SEGA have said? He will have the stance that this is the way forward for FM12, give it a shot and if it doesnt work out it will be looked at, exactly what has been said by employes and devs already.

[SCIAG]

1. To all the mods (paid or voluntary), SI and SEGA staff who have backed the official line so far. Do you all really agree with the Steam policy? If you do, fine. But, I'll bet that there's a heck of a debate going on behind the scenes. I'll bet that some are uncomfortable with the line they're being asked, told, to take, by their bosses.

At the end of the day, you are all people, human beings. How you want to live your lives, and be, is down to you. You might want to think about actions and who you are. If you're comfortable with the line you're taking, then, fine. I'll bet some aren't, to varying degrees.

The paid SI employees seem to generally have faith in SEGA.

The closest thing to an analogy I can think of is staff in a ticket office. If prices go up in order to increase their wages, they can object because the poorest will be frozen out, leading to them losing their jobs, or they can back the policy because it benefits them. Frankly, I can't blame any of them (SI or SEGA) for doing this, and I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority believe what they are doing is right for their company and customers. They're a good bunch.

We moderators found out about this in the same way you did. We have subsequently discussed the matter, and at no point have we been told what line to take (well, we might have implicitly, but not explicitly, I'm no good at reading into what people say). Nobody has expressed an opinion in public that is different to what they are expressing in private. I genuinely don't like Steam, Kriss genuinely doesn't understand why people don't like Steam, Ackter genuinely wants everyone to shut up

[Lord Rowell]

What would he add that the guys from both SI and SEGA have said? He will have the stance that this is the way forward for FM12, give it a shot and if it doesnt work out it will be looked at, exactly what has been said by employes and devs already.

He's the figurehead of SI and Football Manager. His not being here in the light of this decision is poor form IMO. He should be accountable to the customers, not stepping back to let others take the flak (unless, as per my original post on this issue, personal circumstances take priority in which case, fair enough).

[rancer890]

Not to sound too picky but this thread was created yesterday and not tonight so Miles has had plenty of opportunity to throw his ten cents worth into the debate.

I'm sure Miles has read the thread at some point but what do you want him to say?

He'll just regurgitate everything he said earlier. He has his stance and he will stick to it. And then some will probably disagree with his stance and then it'll just go downhill from there...

[Ackter]

Ackter genuinely wants everyone to shut up

I also want to make Kriss jokes.

Something to clarify from that post - the moderators are not paid, we're all volunteers*

*while heathxxx isn't paid, I can't guarantee he isn't kept in a basement somewhere, he's very weird.

[themadsheep2001]

Really well he never posted on this thread, the one what matters the most right now, strange really, expect the top person in SI to come and answer or defend this decision, they say silence is golden.

he did post, more than once...

[DE-Z]

Must say it isn't my preferred solution but meh, doesn't really make no difference.

[Kriss]

Ackter genuinely wants everyone to shut up

Especially me

[themadsheep2001]

Not in this thread, look and you will see

he did, and you can see...

[milnerpoint]

He's the figurehead of SI and Football Manager. His not being here in the light of this decision is poor form IMO. He should be accountable to the customers, not stepping back to let others take the flak (unless, as per my original post on this issue, personal circumstances take priority in which case, fair enough).

What good would come, he would post something along the lines of "We know some of you are not happy, but we feel this is the best course of action this time around" and then we will have another 16 pages of people quoting him, demanding he does something about it, so pretty much everything that is in this thread already.

[leftback in the changing room]

I'm sure Miles has read the thread at some point but what do you want him to say?

He'll just regurgitate everything he said earlier. He has his stance and he will stick to it. And then some will probably disagree with his stance and then it'll just go downhill from there...

Miles is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't on this one. All that would happen is more infractions flying around when people get animated because there's a figure of authority to shout at.

It's too late for FM12; the best we can do is argue for a change of direction for FM13.

[The Welsh Lad]

The SI and SEGA team are not going stop everything to talk to use on here, they will try and get representivites when they can like after the announcment and most prob monday. They still have to work on the up-and-coming blogs and the keep the FM Handheld people up-to-date with their game aswell.

[rancer890]

Well as your his PR spokesman it clarifies everything doesn't it?

Maybe he will post something about it. Maybe he won't. I don't know. He's in a lose-lose situation.

Really well he never posted on this thread, the one what matters the most right now, strange really, expect the top person in SI to come and answer or defend this decision, they say silence is golden.

Maybe that's how he handles the ref's decisions in FM.

[Kriss]

This is what I hate about this country at time's people are happy to lie over and die because it's not worth the fight or they are happy to go with the flow, like I said if your happy make your peace and if your not carry on but with different perspective of take on the matter.

Don't lose sight of the fact that a lot of people are actually happy with this decision.

[SCIAG]

This is what I hate about this country at time's people are happy to lie over and die because it's not worth the fight or they are happy to go with the flow, like I said if your happy make your peace and if your not carry on but with different perspective of take on the matter.

Which country do you think would force Miles to give an answer?

[The Welsh Lad]

This is what I hate about this country at time's people are happy to lie over and die because it's not worth the fight or they are happy to go with the flow, like I said if your happy make your peace and if your not carry on but with different perspective of take on the matter.

It's not happy to lie over and die, it's picking the right fight. This is not the right fight. If they turned around and said due to pirating we are stopping the maufacture of the game, then thats worth a fight to change their minds.

[themadsheep2001]

@Cynet, I seem to have lost the plot and confused Miles with Neil

@left back.It will be interesting tosee what effects this has in the first few weeks, personally dont think a change of direction will happen unless there is a fairly big negative. Not Ideal and I can see why some dont like it and feely for those will have genuine issues with this, but if they think its the way to and it has an overall positive effect i cant see it changing

[Kriss]

Its a UK product, every where else is just a bonus.

Stop being a pain in the butt or I'll ban you for not capitalising your name

[milnerpoint]

It's not happy to lie over and die, it's picking the right fight. This is not the right fight. If they turned around and said due to pirating we are stopping the maufacture of the game, then thats worth a fight to change their minds.

exactly, there is no fight here really, this is happening for FM12 like it or not, the sales figures will decide if it continues this way or not, so lets all just give it the chance to either succeed or fail, in three months time there may be a non steam patch, or in a years time this might be seen to be the best idea SI and SEGA had, but no one here is going to change this for FM12.

[Kriss]

Kriss wait until purchase day, remember FM09 fiasco, ring any bells, it was a disaster using a third party activation source, people wasn't expecting it and didn't want it.

That was a factor in this decision I'm pretty sure, I honestly expect this to go reasonably well on the day though.

[The Welsh Lad]

exactly, there is no fight here really, this is happening for FM12 like it or not, the sales figures will decide if it continues this way or not, so lets all just give it the chance to either succeed or fail, in three months time there may be a non steam patch, or in a years time this might be seen to be the best idea SI and SEGA had, but no one here is going to change this for FM12.

I was against it at first but if I got to have it to play a game I love then I got to give it a go.

[milnerpoint]

I was against it at first but if I got to have it to play a game I love then I got to give it a go.

And thats all anyone at SI can ask from anyone, give it a shot, let them know what you think, they will definately listen with something this important, if the vast majority of people hate it, or if they suffer sales wise, next year will be different.

[The Welsh Lad]

Pirating is a excuse, you can't beat it plain and simple, it's about sharing with in a house hold where there is more than one wanting to play, lost revenue, as for Steam it's promoting them and there cause, money to made from both sides on a link up where Steam discount on percentage of sales Sega make from selling the FM game, it's all smoke and mirrors, FM will continue regardless of the pirating situation.

People will either have to buy 2 games or take turns, thats what me and my brother done for years even on the Amiga on SWOS, when I was out he would play when I came home I would play, if we both wanted to play we had a two player save. Some people just don't want change.

[The Welsh Lad]

And thats all anyone at SI can ask from anyone, give it a shot, let them know what you think, they will definately listen with something this important, if the vast majority of people hate it, or if they suffer sales wise, next year will be different.

Even thought they will never stop pirating, wouldn't it be good that has a result sales increased and as a result the AI team building flaw got fixed

[leftback in the changing room]

@Cynet, I seem to have lost the plot and confused Miles with Neil

@left back.It will be interesting tosee what effects this has in the first few weeks, personally dont think a change of direction will happen unless there is a fairly big negative. Not Ideal and I can see why some dont like it and feely for those will have genuine issues with this, but if they think its the way to and it has an overall positive effect i cant see it changing

That's my stance as well. A significant majority of people who replied to this thread or voted in the poll(s) are comfortable with steam, and some are actively happy that it is the activation method of choice. The ONLY way that this decision had even the slightest chance of being reversed was if there was almost total rejection on here. So like it or not (and I don't) it will stay.

The next test is release day... or 3 hours after release day, when the complaints start to roll in or the returns commence.

[themadsheep2001]

And thats all anyone at SI can ask from anyone, give it a shot, let them know what you think, they will definately listen with something this important, if the vast majority of people hate it, or if they suffer sales wise, next year will be different.

+1. This is how any change in direction will occur imo

[milnerpoint]

Even thought they will never stop pirating, wouldn't it be good that has a result sales increased and as a result the AI team building flaw got fixed

If they make more money, it means more money to making the game better, which obviously benefits everyone, but like i say time will tell, if it flops SI and SEGA will learn, they are not stupid people, despite some of the suggestions in the threads.

[Wakers]

That's not really true. If the vast majority of people hate it, but sales don't go down or go up they won't change a thing.

[phnompenhandy]

This post will get lost amidst all the noise of 17 pages and counting, but let me go on the record here with a prediction.

My prediction falls into 2 parts:

1. Sales of FM2012 will be disappointing.

2. SI/SEGA analysts will conclude that the cause of poor sales is piracy. They will NOT admit that this decision to force activation through Steam is a major factor, despite the many warnings in this thread.

[Wakers]

This post will get lost amidst all the noise of 17 pages and counting, but let me go on the record here with a prediction.

My prediction falls into 2 parts:

1. Sales of FM2012 will be disappointing.

2. SI/SEGA analysts will conclude that the cause of poor sales is piracy. They will NOT admit that this decision to force activation through Steam is a major factor, despite the many warnings in this thread.

Sales won't be disappointing.

The vast majority of people who play FM never visit these forums. Therefore, they won't know that they need Steam to activate the game. They will buy it, install Steam, succeed or fail (at which point a few them might appear on the forums) and then will either continue to play the game, or not bother with it / attempt to give it away.

All Sega will see from that is 1 sale, regardless of whether or not the customer was able to play/played for a week/played for an entire year until the next version is released.

But yes, you're right in that they have a ready made excuse if the Steam experiment goes wrong. At which point they will come on here and completely forget the fact that they analysed, "in detail" the pros and cons of Steam activation.

[MunkD]

Sorry if this has been asked, will the demo be steam activated so people can give it a trial?

[The Welsh Lad]

That's not really true. If the vast majority of people hate it, but sales don't go down or go up they won't change a thing.

If sales don't go down or go up that means that this decision just replaced the ones that 1.) cannot play the game for technical issue 2.) wont play the game for personal reasons. When the people in number 1 sort out their technical issues then sales will improve

[milnerpoint]

That's not really true. If the vast majority of people hate it, but sales don't go down or go up they won't change a thing.

Yeah your right thats too general, if people hate it because of genuine technical problems, be it steam going down, or it not working then they will look at things, but not people hating it because of nothing more than not wanting to use steam.

[Wakers]

Sorry if this has been asked, will the demo be steam activated so people can give it a trial?

Pretty sure the demo will be released via Steam and possibly through a regular download.

The last few demos have been available through Steam, I think.

It's still possible that the worst thing about Fm12 is the game itself (as was the case with FM09. By far the worst football manager game I've ever played and that was after all the patches. That had the dreadful online activation debacle too.)

[Bates Out!]

Think this is a terrible move. I really, really don't like steam and although I haven't read the thread I'm sure there are many others in the same boat. You aim to combat piracy but you're going to do just the opposite - encourage it. If I was a betting man I'd place a lot on sales being below the expected figure this year, all down to this.

Been feeling less and less in love with FM over the years but still bought it because, well, it's FM, but I don't think I will this year. When some of my mates get a pirated version (lets not kid ourselves, most people will) I'll go round and see if it's any good. If it is I might buy it when the price does down, but until then goodbye and thanks for the memories

[Kriss]

I've just thought of one possible positive about Steam that hasn't been mentioned.
In the past patches have had to be held back effectively until they were substantial because the distribution methods were many and quite complex and took time to set up then activate.
Steam auto updating means any single update can be added when ready, so if they want to take advantage of that we could get "critical" fixes a lot quicker.

Hope that makes sense.

[Wakers]

I've just thought of one possible positive about Steam that hasn't been mentioned.
In the past patches have had to be held back effectively until they were substantial because the distribution methods were many and quite complex and took time to set up then activate.
Steam auto updating means any single update can be added when ready, so if they want to take advantage of that we could get "critical" fixes a lot quicker.

Hope that makes sense.

I don't know if that works with FM - I don't know if SI have the structure in place to work like that, otherwise they would have been able to do critical patches anyway (if other games can do it without Steam, there's no reason SI can't).

[Kriss]

All Sega will see from that is 1 sale, regardless of whether or not the customer was able to play/played for a week/played for an entire year until the next version is released.

I think Steam gives them access to quite a lot of information on that score (at least for people not playing offline) so they'll probably see a good deal more than 1 sale.

[Wakers]

I think Steam gives them access to quite a lot of information on that score (at least for people not playing offline) so they'll probably see a good deal more than 1 sale.

As the user has no way to tell Steam why they don't play, Sega will not know the reason why they didn't play it.

[leftback in the changing room]

Downside is that if SI release a patch that isn't fully compatible with saved games that gets installed automatically by Steam, then all hell will break loose....

I have a suspicion that the method of distributing patches by Steam is another consideration of SI's. After FM2008 I had some interaction with Miles over the fact that patches weren't available as file dowloads from SI/Sega sources (only torrents or file upload site mirrors). In future versions the patches were more readily available from the official sites, but Miles made it clear that the bandwidth costs that came with hosting the patches were significant. Going to Steam solves this problem completely.

[Kriss]

It's still possible that the worst thing about Fm12 is the game itself (as was the case with FM09. By far the worst football manager game I've ever played and that was after all the patches. That had the dreadful online activation debacle too.)

Yeh you're the first person in all these pages to actually mention the game, it's kind of an important element too lol, if it gets rave reviews (from us obviously not reviewers) then that's quite likely to impact on whether or not people buy it steam or no.