Well thats great for you but you need to accept that whilst Steam is generally a good piece of software it goes wrong from time to time.
Overall its probably a fairly small % of users who have a problem, either minor which is fixed within a few days or a major one which takes longer if it gets fixed at all.
When these issues occur SI/Sega have zero control over the support and can do nothing to help you.
Sorry, I wanted to stay out of these threads after Eugene went on an utter tirade of twisting my posts into something that only he could read in them, but;
David - Sega is clueless. Steam is not a good anti-piracy measure. It just isn't. There's obviously other motives behind this (how do they not get more money from Steam when it sells games for higher prices than a lot of other retailers??) that they don't want to disclose, and, as we know from the past with Sega, they are not at all honest with their customers.
Steam is not 100% reliable, no piece of software is. So removing the ability to have an alternate method of playing is a) very poor customer service and b) a very questionable business decision.
I have to admit, even though I have Steam and it has never been an issue for me, apart from the few times it has completely broken, the whole idea of being forced to use it is pretty poor.
I remember when I activated 09 through Steam there were issues to activate, people couldn't actually activate for a number of days. Then if you forget to change Steam to Offline (something I have done frequently) and have an internet shortage, then you are pretty much screwed.
Surely SI can come up with an in house authentication system using Sega's resources where you register with SI/Sega through the game on the disc that works; rather than using a 3rd party with a history of configuration or installation problems and a penchant to have random periods of not working. (usually when Steam needs to be updated and your update breaks it, ensuring you have to remove steam completely, delete everything, download a new version and install it again.)
Not to mention enforced patching and not allowing you to launch the game unless you update it. Something which is annoying as hell, if I want to download an update in the background while playing the game then I should be able to, not wait for however long it takes to update before being able to launch my game.
Obviously, the decision is made. Nothing can change it, but it is still an awful decision regardless.
i have registered on forum just to say that i support full Steamworks integration.
Steam is great service, and i use it all the time - i have spent hundreds of hours in previous FM games, all on Steam, without a single problem!
Achievements are fun, Cloud saves and SteamPlay are extremely useful, and a lot of people have all they gaming friends (and games) there.
I saw few complains about Steam memory usage...on Windows 7, while idle, Steam is using only 30-40 mb of ram!
And finally, Steam has huge, and fast growing, community of around 40 million active accounts, all because of great service they provide.
ps. Today, all services have "heaters" (who are speaking bad about service, without any valid\solid reason), and heaters gonna hate , but in case of Steam, vast majority of PC gamers are supporters!
Sports Interactive, keep up the good work.
if i must install steam i won't be playing FM2012..
I've rarely had issues with Steam since it first came out with Half Life 2 all those years ago - I buy almost all of my games on it now; they do obscenely good sales on a regular basis. So many games I've bought and have yet to play
I'm pleased to see SI take this route. I've only read 3 of the 11 preceding pages, but there are a lot of folk complaining who don't seem to have read between the lines. If my maths is right, based on a comment either in the first post or on the first page: 80% of those playing FM haven't paid for it. That is shocking. For a game that gives us hundreds of hours of great quality entertainment, is generally one of the cheapest PC games at retail... there's just no excuse. I can't blame Sega for taking this route at all - they could be taking a route that is even more restrictive (like Ubisoft do with many of their games). They've a right to protect their IP against theft. It's not piracy - it's theft, plain and simple. I've met Miles, and Duffy, Bertie BG, the Collyers, and a lot of the team - they're all nice blokes. They deserve better than to have their work ripped off by thiefs. If this move deters 5% of that criminality, then it's fine by me.
And if they can somehow integrate with SteamCloud so that I can access my saves from anywhere... that'd be awesome!
People are more than entitled to give their opinions, we're happy to hear them (even when it's the same people saying the same thing over and over again! ) but Sega obviously gave all the consequences a hell of a lot of thought before making this decision. No offence to some people who have made comments in this thread but it's not a decision that would have been made lightly without a vast amount of research so it's be nice if you waited until release before you judge Steam as a 'not very good anti-piracy measure'. Give us a chance before judging the decision as a bad one.
Might I suggest you get your consultancy fee back and look for something a little less naive.
I don't like "steam" and i am not going to use it.
I suggest you read some of x42bn6 posts - in which has gone through the points raised by SEGA about piracy and IMO has eloquently debunked them.
Neil I think what can definitely be taken from this thread is that the timing of the announcement has been poor, this should have been the #1 announcement, it is the most important feature of FM12 as it is the only one that will stop people from playing the game.
As for Sega thinking long & hard about this decision I'm not entirely sold on that considering they have a huge tie-in with Steam in terms of new releases & access to their back catalogue
Once again I appreciate the fact that you guys have been active in this thread rather than just ignoring it until it goes away but from a small scale PR position it could have been handled better.
Last edited by Barside; 17-09-2011 at 12:56.
Cancelled my pre-order this morning :-(
Disgusting that this was announced so close to release when SI have known it would be the case for probably a whole year.
If those figures are correct than you're right it is shocking but piracy is only one part of the discussion and it seems to be overshadowing other issues.
I don't think you'll find any real fans who condone piracy and are onboard with SI/Sega doing their best to combat it. These fans, myself included, don't have an issue with anti piracy measures just with Steam being that measure (without an alternative).
Maybe at the end of the day there just isn't any better alternative and the people that made the decision have made the right choice but the posts from SI/Sega staff don't fill me with confidence that this is the case.
Last edited by Cougar2010; 17-09-2011 at 12:58.
[QUOTE=El Zar;7082051]My main issue with it, as evidenced by the Activity Monitor postings, is that on a Mac Steam is a bloated piece of crap. That memory could be put to good use running FM, rather than going on running that PoS in the background.
If your PC/MAC has issues running Steam with FM then its not fit to run either. Any decent modern machine should be 4Gb plus , FFS you can get that for well under £100 now and it will improve the overall performance of your PC no end.
Sitting with an I3 + 4Gb on this one and at any one time FM uses no more than 1.5Gb , Steam with about 35Mb and thats on a 3+ years old machine.
Nah we appreciate that so many people feel passionately about it and we totally understand that some people have a position in which they regard Steam. From my perspective I just people have enough faith in SI and Sega to give us a chance when the game comes out to give it a shot and see if we have made the right decision. We're very proud of the game FM12 is shaping up to be and of course we'd be saddened if some people choose not to play because of Steam, especially when they're doing so without knowing the full facts and are put off by speculation of 'hacked accounts' and a 'memory hogging' program which isn't true.
Been playing games with you for 15 years. 15 years!!! Thanks for pulling the rug from underneath us. You can count me out and all.
If sales do infact drop as a direct result of the Steam issue, or there is a major problem with Steam activation, have SI/SEGA thought about making a patch so that people with the DVD can patch up and play with the DVD in the drive like normal?
Neil I have unquestioning faith in SI, unfortunately that does not fully extend to Sega & ii most certainly does not extend to Steam.
I've already has issues today when trying to get access to my Steam account which has been inactivate for over 3 years yet I am supposed to remember passwords & a answer an impossible secret question. I will give it another go but that is someting for another day.
The FM2011 demo is on Steam right now. Maybe try getting that running if you're unsure about Steam.
my 2 cents.
I personally have a lot of games on Steam, but this year I had my steam account hacked. This left me unable to play any game(online or offline) for a period of nearly 2 weeks, cos there was some problem with the steam support. So I gained a copy(....).
I'm not happy that I did this but I was a member of a clan and couldn't afford to miss game time, IMO steam forced me to do this, and I sure as hell wasnt paying for another copy when I always buyFM on the day of release.
On the brighter side I havent had any problems with steam since and hopefully nor will I
Why am I, as a loyal customer, essentially being punished for the action of a pirate. If SI/SEGA, hell, the gaming industry, had any sense about them they would view these pirates as potential customers rather than a hindrance to their bottom-line.
Whether the decision was taken lightly or not is moot. SI have take the decision, and here on this thread you see the reaction to the decision. In the poll that you yourself closed, you also see the reaction to the decision.
Re. your final comments, sounds like you are asking us to have faith and trust you. I don't see one good reason why we should trust you given these actions and indeed the manner in which some moderators and SI/SEGA staff have interacted with us here by closing polls, taking cheap shots at people who disagree with them, misrepresenting their arguments or plain dismissing them. Frankly, you sound like Tony Blair with the dodgy dossier in his hand asking for trust just before the bombs started falling on Iraq.
Having spent good money on my PC, it is only correct that I should have control over what software is running on it. I will be actioning that control by not installing steam, FM2012 and any future releases on FM that rely on unrequested 3rd party software. Having played (having bought legitimately) every version since CM(1) this is not a decision I have taken lightly, but feel it is the right one (sic)
i dont think the concern is steam itself, you could removed steam and replace it with anything similar and the reaction would be the same. Steam is not intrusive or resource hungry they are just being used as excuses, people dont want to be told what they have to do, that is the big problem.
Neil just sent a PM sent to you, it has made my day
Let's imagine that in 10 years time you're feeling a bit nostalgic and feel like playing your old copy of FM2012... Oh, wait.
where did i say i did that?
I said i gained a copy? that does not say that i pirated it?
I wouldnt need to. I borrowed my brothers copy.
Last edited by AVFCMIKE; 17-09-2011 at 13:25. Reason: clarification
Frankly, you sound like Tony Blair with the dodgy dossier in his hand asking for trust just before the bombs started falling on Iraq.
As per BuryBlade's comment, I can't believe you wrote what you did, either :-(
Can we try it, and see what happens? If Steam proves itself to be the disaster and invasion of privacy that so many are predicting, then I'm sure they won't be used again.
1)Your decision, is a bad one.
2)'not very good anti-piracy measure', of course we will have to wait to find out.
You are asking us to wait and see if this method works, yet you are acting on the assumption that it will work, and there can be no alternatives with FM12. How can you take such an inflexible stance? What if it doesn't work? Will you not then change the method of authentification? No of course you won't, how silly you would look.
Unless it is a secret double-bluff, were you have every intention of losing the need for Steam in a future patch once you have achieved your goal of delaying piracy.
You be done for the day by all means though.
Last edited by Lord Rowell; 17-09-2011 at 13:30. Reason: added apostrophe and corrected typo
@ SI /SEGA
When can we expect an answer to the Germany issue?
Yesterday, I was set against FM with Steam. After sleeping on it I was prepared to be more open, but now it seems to be a case of not being able to activate from a German IP, so I can't play the game. If this is the case will there be alternatives for people living in Germany?
Seriously you'd think its the end of the world here. Its not gonna change before FM12's release, so you're either gonna buy it or you're not
Great decision. Fully support this.
I'm not sure there's much that can be said though, we're not allowed to sell the game in Germany full stop. We'd love to, but for legal reasons that have already been explained we're just not allowed to.
As such, I'm not sure we'd even be allowed to advise you on any ways of getting around that as it could be seen as officially encouraging people to break the law.
So you are aware that some people have issues with it. Even though this is a small minority its still too many when SI/Sega can offer no support.there is as much an issue with steam as their is windows, everyone will have their own good or bad stories.
The issue is the choice of restriction not the restriction itself.The big issue here is people feel they are being restriced, and are having their choices taken away
You're probably correct and I can only speak for myself.i would hedge a bet that a good propotion of those dead against will come around eventually when they realise they stance is only preventing them from playing the game.
SI/Sega have chosen a Steam way or no way option and that leaves me with a choice of accept it or not buy FM for the first time in 20 odd years. If I accept it I am endorsing their choice and nothing will change in the future. The only option this leaves me is missing out on FM12.
Now I'm fully aware that my choice won't make a blind bit of difference to SI/Sega but just like voting for a minority party in an election I would hope if enough people do the same then perhaps we won't be left with the same choices for FM13.
Basically, this would have been better handled in a few ways;
1 and most important) Not relying on Steam 100%. As I said, no software is infallable, so not having an alternate option is..bizarre.
2) Announced before the features, and not before a lot of people have pre-ordered (which I think is the reason why Sega chose to announce this now and not earlier, tbh)
I'm afraid this thread is descending too far into personal abuse, insults and downright trolling, not to mention spamming (which posting the same thing 30 times most definitely qualifies as)
Whether you're pro Steam activation or anti it, or indeed somewhere else entirely, keep it civil or the thread will be closed and infractions suitably awarded.
This is the future for gaming, like it or not, this is way things are going with every kind of media, thanks to pirates companies have taken this step, why are people so angry with the companies trying to protect their product rather than focusing their anger on the people who have pushed this kind of decision through?
some of my mates will not be buying fm12 they don't have internet access i feel sorry for them and other people who don't have internet access.
Any ways around that in the past wouldn't have been officially supported or advertised by us here, we wouldn't be allowed to. I'm sure there are ways around the new system, we're not specifically trying to make it impossible for people not to be able to play the game in Germany, we're just not allowed to sell it there. I'm not sure (not that we can't I just don't know at this stage) whether we would be allowed to tell you ourselves what any ways around it are are as that could be seen in breach of the legal conditions of us not being able to sell the game in Germany.
Hopefully one of the guys from SEGA can clarify that though, as it's just not my area of expertise.
It would be interesting to know how many people are impacted but it will always be impossible to answer.
That being siad the number of forces personnel & dependants based in Germany has been greatly reduce in preperation to the end of out presence there.
Also this should not turn into an anti-forces point, I only mentioned the armed forces in my first post on this subject as that is my link to living in Germany.
Last edited by Barside; 17-09-2011 at 14:16.
Fact is though they have no more control over Steam than you or me and I don't have the same confidence in Steam
Yes, personally given an option I was leaning to not using Steam this year due to problems in the past.but wait you already use steam yet you will have to decide if you want to use it for FM this time around??!
Again you are focusing on the pirating aspect.This is the future for gaming, like it or not, this is way things are going with every kind of media, thanks to pirates companies have taken this step, why are people so angry with the companies trying to protect their product rather than focusing their anger on the people who have pushed this kind of decision through?
I really know very little about this but a simple google search will show you that Steam isn't the answer and from reading some pieces on the internet actually using Steam could make it easier for the pirates.
Pirating is bad, no arguments there but I'm yet to be convinced that Steam is the best answer.
I don't like the fact I have to install an operating system to play games. I don't want stupid 3rd party software on my machine
"I don't like the fact I have to buy a PC or a Mac to play the game, blah blah ti blah"
Using Steam to activate the game is NOT the same as the ill-fated Uniloc activation sytsem.
It forces you to have Steam actively running on your PC in order to play the game.
It forces you to connect to the internet to be able to activate your game.
It provides no more protection against piracy than having your DVD in the drive to start it.
SI/SEGA types - will patches for FM12 be offered for download by any other method than through Steam's auto update method?
This s**t is whack, i am disappointed.
This would also makes sense I believe, as SEGA/SI are not allowed to sell the game in Germany, nobody has said anything about playing it
Also, everyone should stop making such a drama about having to use Steam, its a neat little program (been using it for years), and as far as anti-piracy measures are concerned, especially considering what some companies are trying to do these day (I am looking at you, Ubisoft), it's actually one of the most pleasant choices they could make. Also, you can't expect any modern day software developer to just rely on a simple disc-check to verify that a game is legal. If you really enjoy playing FM and want to support SI, then I think it's well worth the effort trying to get to know Steam a little better before swearing off the game all together. It's not like it's going to steal your car and run off with your wife.
Iv just read on another post and hes made a good point about spending god money on his laptop etc etc etc
I spent over £500 on my laptop and the only reason i bought it was for FM. i have never used for anything else. i bought it purely for football manager
Iv managed to play one edition of FM on this laptop
Can SI/SEGA give me some money for a laptop im no longer going to use
It is not necessarily a reasonable expectation for a user to have Steam in order to run a game.
The game has run without Steam before, so unless something huge has changed in the codebase to tightly bind itself to Steam (which is a bad idea in itself), it is easy to see that Steam and Football Manager 2012 can still be decoupled. They don't need to be dependent on each other.
It's just user expectations. I have an OS and I expect it to allow me to browse the Internet, type some things, have a clock and calendar, and install applications. Sure, it restricts what I can do because I could in theory write my own OS in C and make it do more than Windows 7, but I trade that lack of functionality for convenience. It is just that for some, trading the lack of choice outweighs the supposed benefits forced Steam provides. And since it feels forced, it feels even worse.