You mention another game. You know, just because other producers behave in this fashion doesn't mean SI have to, you have a choice. You're responsible for your own actions, no-one else is.
I stand by my position that this is absurd. Sure, you want to stop piracy, but this uses a sledgehammer to crack a nut and penalises families who just want to buy a copy for their household. SI are going too far with this one, IMO the ethics and concept of property ownership of a household outweigh SI's rights to insist an individual copy is provided for every Jonny and Joanna.
Very, very disappointed with your response here.
I have a laptop with a broken network card. I occasionally use it to write or play FM when I go on long-ish train journeys. Now that's a tiny minority of my FM time, but it will still annoy me next time I go on a long journey and cannot play my latest save. For other people, it will stop them playing FM all together. These are people who cannot pirate FM. To be honest, I think they're fine about SI having to employ fewer coders, as long as they actually get to play the game!
2) Again, I agree. UK Copyright Law is totally outdated. It is silly that combining your digital music collection with your partner's, or going halves on FM with your brother, is illegal. Fortunately, I think copyright law is being updated in the next year or so to make it better fit in the digital world.
3) Legally, I don't think you can give it away, but it is technically doable.
I have read some really REALLY idiotic comments in this thread. I've been a long-time FM fan and I totally appreciate where they're coming from - everyone loves to come out of the woodwork and slag off SI as a 'profit making machine' and 'having sold out to Sega' but they seem to forget that FM is the only thing they make money from. Simply put, if FM doesn't make money there will be no more FM.
All the people who think they're going to protest SI using Steam (simply because selfish ******** pirate the game - where's the people moaning at this jerks?) by simply not getting the game, what do they expect SI to do? Come back with their tails between their legs saying "we're sorry loyal (word that's being thrown around a lot here) legion of fans, we'll release the game with no copy protection so everyone can enjoy it - even the pirates two weeks early!" Sorry but that's not going to happen.
They're asking you to install Steam, not asking you to eat your own genitalia. If you don't like it, don't buy it, bugger off from these forums and go and do something else with your lives. Do us all a favour. Or better yet, spend your time designing a full-proof copy-protection system that doesn't infringe on your 'basic human rights' which Steam apparently is and do us all a favour. The pirates are the scumbags here, not Sega or SI.
Steam is wonderful - I don't get what all your problems are with it.
I have Steam installed on my home laptop and also on my PC at work. I save my savegame files to Dropbox (and back them up to my HD), and I'm able to play the same savegame both at home and also at work on my lunchbreak. It's amazing. I could never go back to just playing on disc.
Such a shame as this could have been easily avoided by having an open discussion on the matter a few months ago, if SI had posted in June/July that they were planning to go down this route they would have been in a position to assess the communities reaction & given themselves time to think of alternative options if needed before the game was announced, why wait a few weeks before going Gold to announce this.
It is, however, possible to bring "software ownership" close to "true ownership" as possible. One way is to release it into the public domain, for example, or in the free software world, copyleft designed to protect your efforts.
Software licensing, of course, isn't one that helps.
I would be interesting in hearing statistics on the piracy levels of FM09, which introduced compulsory activation, Steam, and huge problems, in comparison to FM08 and FM10/11. If SI are convinced activation reduces piracy then why don't they show us how much of a difference it made last time we had this much fiasco?
I wonder what figures ( amount of people ) actually play fm that dont have the internet? or are you not able to release those figures also? I really think everyone at si needs to sit down and discuss this further with input from long term customers/players as to how this could be better resolved? there is no point SI eliminating say 100,000 users from piracy, to lose double that amount who actually go and buy the game!
If Offline works. If at any point offline mode stops working, you (usually) have to get back onto the internet to fix it.
It's brilliant, isn't it, this "us and you" mentality? Fans turning on fans.
We're consumers. We have more power than you think. Until today, Football Manager 2009's Amazon rating is a testament to that - 3 years on, it's still got a pathetic rating based on one mistake - DRM.
Steam is controversial for many (it was controversial for Civilization V as well) - and both sides have points. But that's the point - it's controversial.
Well cheers mate, I'll just crawl back under the woodwork that I've been hiding in for the last 4 years expect I haven't & if you've read some of my posts on the blogs I was until this afternoon really looking forward to this game.
Last edited by Barside; 16-09-2011 at 19:52.
After looking into it, we're pretty confident that we have a solution in place that will protect the game. And that for FM12 Steam is a viable method of reducing and at the very least significantly delaying piracy.
I personally disagree with the last statement though. Had we gone for a more harsh constant connection or invasive method of protection I think people would be more unhappy. The year I posted to say there was no activation needed on FM10 but you had to have the disk in the drive there was outcry because people wanted to play music or give their disc to a mate. Essentially people will be unhappy if anything we do gets in the way or makes it more difficult for them to play FM. We understand that, which is why the solution is a very very simple process of going online once.
I find the claim that this is essentially a "once in a lifetime inconvenience" absurd. As if activating the game within steam was everything you did. Sorry, but it is not. Every time you want to launch football manager you have to start steam, type in your password (if you dont want any other user of the same computer to have access to your steam account), wait for it to log in, click away the splash screens and weekly offers, find your games and FINALLY click launch. All this assumes that steam is actually working that day. Worst case scenario steam gives you a cryptic "we are sorry, but your game is unavailable" or wont connect at all (and refuse to go into offline mode)
And yes, the list of things to do is slightly exaggerated, but even the best case scenarios is far from a once-in-a-lifetime-activation.
My point is what about the people who are genuinely concerned about Steam, or just blatantly do not want or do not feel the need to use Steam because of past experiences and will not buy the game because of this decision - many of whom have bought the game previously long before Sega's involvement with Sports Interactive?
Are you saying you are quite happy to see them walk away?
Are you saying you are not happy to see them walk away but 'tough' because this is the decision we have made?
What about the people who don't have a choice? What about the little man in the street who doesn't have internet, who doesn't live close enough to a 'hotspot'?
Not at all... without steam, once a patch has been downloaded (say by a friend) it can be installed from any media.
As for your comment about the disc in the drive re. FM10, that was an annoying inconvenience for some. What SI have created now is a barrier to access. The latter is far more serious.
The personal security excuse for not using it is hogwash, it's risk free compared with many apps that everybody uses every day.
Well thank you SI and Sega. I have no interest in the 'benefits' of Steam. It is not installed on my PC. I actively avoid purchasing the likes of Civ 5 and the latter Total War games due to their insistence on activation through Steam. And now I have to actively avoid purchasing my favourite PC game; a game I have spent the best part of two decades playing.
Not because of the activation. But simply because nobody seems to be able to answer the simple question, posted several times so far: "If Steam is operating in offline mode, will it not interfere with my PC?" Because so far the answers are "Yes, except when it asks you why you aren't connected to the internet, or it randomly drops you out of whatever you are doing". So the answer is 'no'. And after wasting hours fixing my PC because my antivirus broke down whenever it automatically updated at the same time as Windows Update was in action, I'm very loath to run anything that doesn't know when to stay shut down.
So if somebody can assure me that when not connected to the internet, and with Steam in offline mode, it does nothing but sit quietly on my hard drive then I'll reconsider. I don't care if that's considered a luddite view.
All these people p*ssing and moaning about not having internet to activate, why? You have enough internet to come on here and whine about it...
Basically from a PR point of view SI & SEGA have dropped the ball on this one, as I posted a little earlier this should have been made public months ago so that the reaction could be assessed & also allow for realted issues to be brought up & overcome.
It sems to me that if you dont have a readily available internet connection SI/Sega are effectively saying that you represent such a small custom that frankly they dont give a rats ass
The chief objection seems to be that a separate application is needed for authentication, so what if SI produced an authenticator which was a separate app, would the same objections be valid?
Steam doesn't require payment, it doesn't require sensitive information, so why are people so obsessively against it (many of whom have never tried it)?
I wanted to know what can be done if i dont have an internet connection in my home ? how will i be able to play the game i love ?
I'd like to add a new dimension to this discussion. I've skimmed through 7 pages and i don't think this has been considered:
I'm willing to wager that all the posters (SI employees included) who are supporting this measure are based in the UK, US or other developed nations with reliable broadband internet connections. Despite SI occasionally throwing out the term 'worldwide', no one seems to have considered the market outside that zone. Now I have no idea what the figures are re. piracy, but I can say with certainty that piracy is particularly serious in poorer nations with expensive and unreliable internet connections. I accept that the market in Cambodia is negligible, but I do recall a senior SI person posting the other day that the game would not be translated into Turkish because most of the players there had pirated copies.
The point I want to make, therefore, is that this measure will deter gamers in developing countries who have poor internet connections, the very part of the global market that is particularly vulnerable to piracy. In taking such a Western-centric perspective, I think SEGA/SI have restricted their market to the most developed nations rather than aiming globally.
For guidance on SI's POV on advertising at the expense of their game quality or consumer desire, please note that a large percentage of the hoardings around the pitch are given to charity each year. Those that are given to advertisers are not given unrealistically, for example taking all the hoardings around the ground, or 3 in a row even. Advertisers would love it, SI don't allow it because its not realistic to be playing at a lower league ground where they have LED dynamic ads. SI and SEGA even give a donation from every FM we've ever sold to WarChild. You aren't dealing with a horrendous money grabbing developer here, you're buying a game from, in my opinion, one of the more principled and idealistic companies out there. They deserve a bit more respect, in my opinion.
I'm not going to deny that I don't like this decision at all (Due to the fact that it depends on third-party software, as good as Steam may be), but I understand it
So, the problem is that you can't activate the same FM12 copy on more than one Steam account (Thank Chuck Norris I'm the only one in my family who plays FM!) but it IS the lesser of two evils, when you consider the 'second evil' is piracy (Supposing it works, and piracy actually drops this time)
After all, if they allowed to activate the same FM12 copy on more than one account... it would have solved NOTHING
Still, the only way SI and SEGA would stop using this method is... failure at decreasing piracy, and nothing else
PS: It could be the fact that I don't buy games on Steam (Since I don't have a job yet. In fact, the only one I have is TF2) but... I'm not sure if Steam is THAT annoying in Offline Mode. The times I left it in Offline Mode, it's never been that way
Last edited by llDracoll; 16-09-2011 at 20:20.
I spend long periods at outlaws in Northern Ireland and Steam is a godsend because whichever relative is boring me I can just log onto their PC and play any of my games I want to.
Give it a try and if you can then point out any reasons to not use it I'll buy you a gallon of Guinness
Do not interpret that as doubt, I fully accept that counterfeiting in all its forms in an issue but if figures like 25% of pirate copy holders & over 7 figures are used then these should be based on hard facts & not numbers extrapolated from other statistical data such as convictions, seizures & confirmed data for other similar products which is how this is coming across.
Two questions (pardon me if they've already been asked):
Will people know at the time of purchase that the game can only be activated online?
Is it stated in big bold letters on the front of the cover or is it written in font 2 at the back?
Ps: I'm not a marketing genius, but from my little experience this is an awful move from SI and it will surely affect sales (it takes little).
Which scenarios are possible, AFTER the game has been activated via Steam?
1. Not connected to the internet; can boot up and play FM12
2. Connected to the internet, but uninstalled Steam.
3. Connected to the internet, Steam installed but turned off (therefore won't auto-install flawed patches)
4. Connected to internet but connection fails - can one continue playing and saving game?
Steam loads in offline mode if you have your details saved and you can play FM with Steam running in the background.Which scenarios are possible, AFTER the game has been activated via Steam?
1. Not connected to the internet; can boot up and play FM12
You can't play, you need to have Steam.2. Connected to the internet, but uninstalled Steam.
Steam needs to load and run in background to run FM. Auto patching can be turned off.3. Connected to the internet, Steam installed but turned off (therefore won't auto-install flawed patches)
See #14. Connected to internet but connection fails - can one continue playing and saving game?
Would also be worth some browny points in the press if a solution could be arranged & as the garrison's are British soveriegn soil German law on this matter should not apply, would be rather embarrassing if a distribution agreement has already be made with NAAFI.
Last edited by Barside; 16-09-2011 at 20:45.
So what I need to know will patches still be downloadable from SI website i.e. optional and be able to revert to previous patch or Because the game is linked to steam are patches only downloadable through steam therefore automatic and can't revert back.
the problem is, this isnt a valid anti piracy measure, Steam games are just as susceptible to the tealeaves as any other games out there.
and unfortunately as per every year the dodgy people will have this available before its becomes available to the masses,
i guess this means no getting it a day or 2 before release either now
but I do understand where SI/Sega are coming from, you want to secure your intellectual property and unfortunately it seems that this is the only option open to you atm. Steam is not the end of the world. it does have a few good qualities. especially if you have access to a fast connection.
I feel sorry for Si in all this as they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. maybe Si could release a virus laden copy of fm12 in hooky form surely be more effective to give a detterent to the piracy brigade
People claiming they won't buy FM12 because of Steam are only hurting themselves.
When I look at Football Manager series, the biggest thing I see is value for money. For $40, I have got over 1500 hours of entertainment. I am honestly struggling to come up with any other purchase or service you can buy for that price and get that much entertainment out of it. And face it, there is no other series out there that compares to Football Manager, there are other simulators but they are not to the same standard, quality or polish.
Only people who I can see who will suffer out of this is people with a Desktop and no internet access.
sorry got to page 3 of the thread and couldnt be bothered to read all the moaning and false information anymore. have used steam for all of fm11 and got no problem with it. already purchased fm12 on there earlier before this got announced.
the benefits of having steam are...
it doesnt take up a lot of space on a computer
you CAN play in offline mode, i do this 95% of the time and my internet is regularly disconnected when i do it.
you will only need an internet connection for activating the game and patches if you want them
if you are logged into steam, it will tell you that a new patch is available. if you havent been on here for a couple of days you may not be aware it had been released
steam is barely noticeable esp when you are playing the game
it is free to set up an account and easy to do as well.
your game DOES save to your computer, not your account
the only people i feel sorry for are those with no internet connection at all. i just hope SI and sega have made it clear on the box that an internet connection and steam is required to activate the game. hope i havent upset too many people with my comments.
Last edited by Things Could Get Messi; 16-09-2011 at 20:40.
The game does offer value but i still cant understand the reasoning behind the price if im using a digital download and cd. Surely it should be cheaper down to costs of packaging etc..
However, nobody bases their purchases purely on value for money on a time basis - management simulations in general are better value for money anyway, but that's not the reason why they are generally much less popular than FPSes, which have a new version every few months.
Someone said: "The piracy could be looked for a opportunity, not slamming doors". I agree with that. Not all the people who takes a pirate program are a *******, a thief or etc. These people could be a potential costumer also. It's only a question for make the product more easy to buy in some places. In Brazil, for example, we don't have the FM Boxed Version sold. Why????? Here we have a lot of guys who take the warez version, but i think a lot of people wants to take a boxed version of FM (some gays buy with STEAM also) if the game was released in the same day for UK or few days later, not months.
A few areas where we will disagree I'm afraid...
I agree that there's no difference to you if 1000 or 10000 people pirate the game, the income is the same. But if you don't protect your product in some way, you are relying on the good nature of consumers to pay for what they can get for free. There's a reason people lock their shops when they close at night. How many of those 1000, or 10000 people pirate the game because it's an option, an easy option?
The game will not be leaked before release and we think it is important that there aren't pirated versions of the game available before legitimate customers can get the game. It's not fair on the genuine purchasers, and it also means we're not offering people a choice to buy the game even if they want to!
It's not a strawman at all about making the game available on disc. That was in response to people posting that the idea of selling on disc that then needs to be activated as being devised by idiots. I was just saying that there was thinking behind it.
I'm also not pretending that FM is the only pirated game out there. But it's the software in question here and it's pirated heavily, not just in developing or poor nations, in developed rich countries by people that go on Facebook and brag about it because they think it's ok. It's not.
This isn't a strategy that's born out of anger or frustration, although it is both frustrating and, erm, anger-making. We spend millions and months each year on making the game better, delivering a better and better product to turn people on to buying it. That's how we try to convince people to become legitimate customers. However just leaving the door open and operating a trust system of payment just isn't viable. Microsoft may be able to sit and wait for entire economies to grow before seeing the benefits of their work, most other organisations can't.
We don't believe we've made piracy more attractive. We don't believe we've put a heavy burden on legitimate consumers, it's a hurdle sure, but we think it's a very low one.
I purposefully made an account here to say this:
Piracy is bad , steam is bad , we cant win
I have had 2-3 steam accounts (forgot password and COULD not get accounts back) so do niot lose your login details ever !
I dont like steam , never have , why should we have to have steam 'running in the background' ? Its not like FM doesn't use enough RAM as it is.
Is it not possible to activate via steam but then never have to have steam running again until patch time ? Having steam running is just another set of processors running for no real reason , people who have small ram , slow processors will struggle even more than FM2011.
People will still have a choice , buy the game and activate via steam OR d/l via torrent and wait for crack (which will come along maybe even day1)
I normally buy the game 1 year and play that missing out on next years game then buy again , i dislike yearly games , theres no need , i love FM (have done since the old amiga days (Champman Italia mmmm) but dont like being given new features when old bugs need fixing.
Please SI / SEGA fix old issues , offer better online modes , dont waste time givin the interface a new look as it is fine , fix bugs then give new features.
Back to steam lol
I will have no choice but to d/l and install steam , which i dont want to , but thats the way it is.
If you dont have/cant afford an internet connection maybe try taking you pc/laptop to a friends and doing the activation , SEGA has stated here you dont need to be connected to the internet to play the game so . . . .
Steam - free + internet connection
FM2012 - £20-£30
Not much is it ?
you work for a massive international company that like others are only interested in one thing PROFIT...... the ads are there for a reason to generate sales.
be it in the game it self or through steam...
as for the charity work, care to let me know how much you save on tax because of charitable donations..????