A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[SCIAG]

Thanks for the swift reply SCIAG. Now, my responses to the answers.

1. Very disappointed with SI and SEGA with this because it forces people to have an internet connection. I know most people have one, but not everyone can afford to maintain one or has access to internet if they're in a rural area. This prevents them from playing the game even when they've purchased it, or have received it as a gift. This is economic discrimination.

2. This is absurd. Yes, I saw Neil Brock's earlier post that this is the legal position. The legal position is absurd and it is unethical and shameful that SI and SEGA are exploiting this to the maximum. Are we seriously saying that Mum and Dad have to buy two or more copies for their kids? Have the folk at SI and SEGA not twigged that this disproportionately affects those on lower incomes, especially in these times of rising unemployment, real wage deflation and austerity measures?

As with all things, there is a balance between a firm protecting its property rights, and acting in a socially responsible manner. This crosses an ethical line IMO in pursuit of profit. I'm disgusted at this.

3. I'm pleased to hear that is the case as purchasing a game should mean that, as with anything else, you own it. This is called property rights. Though I fear that the next step will be that we can't decide to sell or give away our own property and will become licensers rather than owners. More power to the big firms, less power to the little folk.

I posted on the poll thread that I'd give serious consideration as to whether I'd buy FM12 or not. I've now reached a conclusion, unless SI and SEGA reverse this policy, I won't be buying any more games from them, because this is a matter of principle.

To the people who don't understand the fuss. I understand you like Steam. I did, when I had a choice as to whether to use it or not. But this is the issue, its a choice. Now, SI have taken that choice away from us.

1) I agree with you, SI shouldn't stop people without an internet connection from playing the game.

I have a laptop with a broken network card. I occasionally use it to write or play FM when I go on long-ish train journeys. Now that's a tiny minority of my FM time, but it will still annoy me next time I go on a long journey and cannot play my latest save. For other people, it will stop them playing FM all together. These are people who cannot pirate FM. To be honest, I think they're fine about SI having to employ fewer coders, as long as they actually get to play the game!

2) Again, I agree. UK Copyright Law is totally outdated. It is silly that combining your digital music collection with your partner's, or going halves on FM with your brother, is illegal. Fortunately, I think copyright law is being updated in the next year or so to make it better fit in the digital world.

3) Legally, I don't think you can give it away, but it is technically doable.

[Huey Lewis]

I have read some really REALLY idiotic comments in this thread. I've been a long-time FM fan and I totally appreciate where they're coming from - everyone loves to come out of the woodwork and slag off SI as a 'profit making machine' and 'having sold out to Sega' but they seem to forget that FM is the only thing they make money from. Simply put, if FM doesn't make money there will be no more FM.

All the people who think they're going to protest SI using Steam (simply because selfish ******** pirate the game - where's the people moaning at this jerks?) by simply not getting the game, what do they expect SI to do? Come back with their tails between their legs saying "we're sorry loyal (word that's being thrown around a lot here) legion of fans, we'll release the game with no copy protection so everyone can enjoy it - even the pirates two weeks early!" Sorry but that's not going to happen.

They're asking you to install Steam, not asking you to eat your own genitalia. If you don't like it, don't buy it, bugger off from these forums and go and do something else with your lives. Do us all a favour. Or better yet, spend your time designing a full-proof copy-protection system that doesn't infringe on your 'basic human rights' which Steam apparently is and do us all a favour. The pirates are the scumbags here, not Sega or SI.

[DaddyTorgo]

Steam is wonderful - I don't get what all your problems are with it.

I have Steam installed on my home laptop and also on my PC at work. I save my savegame files to Dropbox (and back them up to my HD), and I'm able to play the same savegame both at home and also at work on my lunchbreak. It's amazing. I could never go back to just playing on disc.

[SCIAG]

I have read some really REALLY idiotic comments in this thread. I've been a long-time FM fan and I totally appreciate where they're coming from - everyone loves to come out of the woodwork and slag off SI as a 'profit making machine' and 'having sold out to Sega' but they seem to forget that FM is the only thing they make money from. Simply put, if FM doesn't make money there will be no more FM.

Good job FM is the best-selling PC game in the world, despite only one in five copies being purchased.

[Barside]

That answers that!!! I have been a loyal customer since cm01/02 and now your telling me I cant play the game anymore. F U I'm highly disappointed with your decision.

Although not exactly constructive your sentiments do seem to sum up the view of a number of folk.

Such a shame as this could have been easily avoided by having an open discussion on the matter a few months ago, if SI had posted in June/July that they were planning to go down this route they would have been in a position to assess the communities reaction & given themselves time to think of alternative options if needed before the game was announced, why wait a few weeks before going Gold to announce this.

[x42bn6]

3) Legally, I don't think you can give it away, but it is technically doable.

Agreed - but it's the existing laws' faults, because it is meaningless to "own" a bunch of zeroes and ones. Software is essentially a photocopying machine that produces perfect copies for tiny cost, and existing laws cannot cope with that.

It is, however, possible to bring "software ownership" close to "true ownership" as possible. One way is to release it into the public domain, for example, or in the free software world, copyleft designed to protect your efforts.

Software licensing, of course, isn't one that helps.

[CLS]

I would be interesting in hearing statistics on the piracy levels of FM09, which introduced compulsory activation, Steam, and huge problems, in comparison to FM08 and FM10/11. If SI are convinced activation reduces piracy then why don't they show us how much of a difference it made last time we had this much fiasco?

[stevetranmere]

I wonder what figures ( amount of people ) actually play fm that dont have the internet? or are you not able to release those figures also? I really think everyone at si needs to sit down and discuss this further with input from long term customers/players as to how this could be better resolved? there is no point SI eliminating say 100,000 users from piracy, to lose double that amount who actually go and buy the game!

[SeanNUFC]

I have read some really REALLY idiotic comments in this thread. I've been a long-time FM fan and I totally appreciate where they're coming from - everyone loves to come out of the woodwork and slag off SI as a 'profit making machine' and 'having sold out to Sega' but they seem to forget that FM is the only thing they make money from. Simply put, if FM doesn't make money there will be no more FM.

All the people who think they're going to protest SI using Steam (simply because selfish ******** pirate the game - where's the people moaning at this jerks?) by simply not getting the game, what do they expect SI to do? Come back with their tails between their legs saying "we're sorry loyal (word that's being thrown around a lot here) legion of fans, we'll release the game with no copy protection so everyone can enjoy it - even the pirates two weeks early!" Sorry but that's not going to happen.

They're asking you to install Steam, not asking you to eat your own genitalia. If you don't like it, don't buy it, bugger off from these forums and go and do something else with your lives. Do us all a favour. Or better yet, spend your time designing a full-proof copy-protection system that doesn't infringe on your 'basic human rights' which Steam apparently is and do us all a favour. The pirates are the scumbags here, not Sega or SI.

[Wakers]

If Offline works. If at any point offline mode stops working, you (usually) have to get back onto the internet to fix it.

[Lord Rowell]

3. I'm pleased to hear that is the case as purchasing a game should mean that, as with anything else, you own it. This is called property rights. Though I fear that the next step will be that we can't decide to sell or give away our own property and will become licensers rather than owners. More power to the big firms, less power to the little folk.

I posted on the poll thread that I'd give serious consideration as to whether I'd buy FM12 or not. I've now reached a conclusion, unless SI and SEGA reverse this policy, I won't be buying any more games from them, because this is a matter of principle.

To the people who don't understand the fuss. I understand you like Steam. I did, when I had a choice as to whether to use it or not. But this is the issue, its a choice. Now, SI have taken that choice away from us.

You do not own any software that you buy - you only own the license to use it.

Semantics.

I think its pretty clear what I meant. If I buy the game, it should be mine to give to or sell to someone else if I chose. Same as if I buy a book or a coffee table.

[x42bn6]

If you don't like it, don't buy it, bugger off from these forums and go and do something else with your lives. Do us all a favour.

There are people here who really contribute to this forum (and indirectly, to SI and the development of this game) who would hurt the product you love if they "buggered off".

It's brilliant, isn't it, this "us and you" mentality? Fans turning on fans.

We're consumers. We have more power than you think. Until today, Football Manager 2009's Amazon rating is a testament to that - 3 years on, it's still got a pathetic rating based on one mistake - DRM.

Steam is controversial for many (it was controversial for Civilization V as well) - and both sides have points. But that's the point - it's controversial.

[Cougar2010]

You absolutely can get the game from the shops. Buy the game as you always do, take your laptop to one of the hotspots you visit to browse and activate the game online. Then turn the game to offline mode and go home. You can play FM12.

You are making a presumption he is using a laptop.

Also internet hotspots aren't exactly everywhere outside London and other major cities.

[Barside]

I have read some really REALLY idiotic comments in this thread. I've been a long-time FM fan and I totally appreciate where they're coming from - everyone loves to come out of the woodwork and slag off SI as a 'profit making machine' and 'having sold out to Sega' but they seem to forget that FM is the only thing they make money from. Simply put, if FM doesn't make money there will be no more FM.

All the people who think they're going to protest SI using Steam (simply because selfish ******** pirate the game - where's the people moaning at this jerks?) by simply not getting the game, what do they expect SI to do? Come back with their tails between their legs saying "we're sorry loyal (word that's being thrown around a lot here) legion of fans, we'll release the game with no copy protection so everyone can enjoy it - even the pirates two weeks early!" Sorry but that's not going to happen.

They're asking you to install Steam, not asking you to eat your own genitalia. If you don't like it, don't buy it, bugger off from these forums and go and do something else with your lives. Do us all a favour. Or better yet, spend your time designing a full-proof copy-protection system that doesn't infringe on your 'basic human rights' which Steam apparently is and do us all a favour. The pirates are the scumbags here, not Sega or SI.

So any counter discussion is automatically invalid & those of us who do not want to install Steam, are unsure due to past bad experiences or are unable to easily access a broadband connection should just STFU & walk away without voicing our concerns?

Well cheers mate, I'll just crawl back under the woodwork that I've been hiding in for the last 4 years expect I haven't & if you've read some of my posts on the blogs I was until this afternoon really looking forward to this game.

[kwillett]

You absolutely can get the game from the shops. Buy the game as you always do, take your laptop to one of the hotspots you visit to browse and activate the game online. Then turn the game to offline mode and go home. You can play FM12.

What happens when you need a patch... do you take it to your local hotspot and sit there for 4 hours waiting for the patch to download....ridiculous post

[bcooper]

Serious question, surely someone in your office must be aware there are more secure methods of piracy protection. Nobody is disputing that if a game is harder to crack then the likelihood is that the people who want to play the game will need to buy it, but going through steam is easier than having to get a NO-CD executable back in the day.



EDIT: To make it clearer, i'm sure people wouldn't complain if it was a viable method of stopping piracy, but it isn't.

SEGA have been looking into this for some time, with some people that are pretty expert in the piracy and protection area. They're well aware of the limitations and success of STEAM so far.
After looking into it, we're pretty confident that we have a solution in place that will protect the game. And that for FM12 Steam is a viable method of reducing and at the very least significantly delaying piracy.

I personally disagree with the last statement though. Had we gone for a more harsh constant connection or invasive method of protection I think people would be more unhappy. The year I posted to say there was no activation needed on FM10 but you had to have the disk in the drive there was outcry because people wanted to play music or give their disc to a mate. Essentially people will be unhappy if anything we do gets in the way or makes it more difficult for them to play FM. We understand that, which is why the solution is a very very simple process of going online once.

[SCIAG]

What happens when you need a patch... do you take it to your local hotspot and sit there for 4 hours waiting for the patch to download....ridiculous post

I don't think the patch download would take 4 hours, but that's a good point.

[Ackter]

You are making a presumption he is using a laptop.

Also internet hotspots aren't exactly everywhere outside London and other major cities.

iirc every McDonalds has free Wifi access and they're bloody ​everywhere :/

[SCIAG]

The year I posted to say there was no activation needed on FM10 but you had to have the disk in the drive there was outcry because people wanted to play music or give their disc to a mate.

I'm still pretty annoyed about that. Bring back FM09's activation!

[vlobben]

I find the claim that this is essentially a "once in a lifetime inconvenience" absurd. As if activating the game within steam was everything you did. Sorry, but it is not. Every time you want to launch football manager you have to start steam, type in your password (if you dont want any other user of the same computer to have access to your steam account), wait for it to log in, click away the splash screens and weekly offers, find your games and FINALLY click launch. All this assumes that steam is actually working that day. Worst case scenario steam gives you a cryptic "we are sorry, but your game is unavailable" or wont connect at all (and refuse to go into offline mode)

And yes, the list of things to do is slightly exaggerated, but even the best case scenarios is far from a once-in-a-lifetime-activation.

[stevetranmere]

SEGA have been looking into this for some time, with some people that are pretty expert in the piracy and protection area. They're well aware of the limitations and success of STEAM so far.
After looking into it, we're pretty confident that we have a solution in place that will protect the game. And that for FM12 Steam is a viable method of reducing and at the very least significantly delaying piracy.

I personally disagree with the last statement though. Had we gone for a more harsh constant connection or invasive method of protection I think people would be more unhappy. The year I posted to say there was no activation needed on FM10 but you had to have the disk in the drive there was outcry because people wanted to play music or give their disc to a mate. Essentially people will be unhappy if anything we do gets in the way or makes it more difficult for them to play FM. We understand that, which is why the solution is a very very simple process of going online once.

But it is not "going online once" ! as stated above, what happens with patches? or the first day of activation?

i seriousley believe this is the wrong way to go!

[tom_numbers]

What happens when you need a patch... do you take it to your local hotspot and sit there for 4 hours waiting for the patch to download....ridiculous post

Surely you would have had to do the same thing without Steam anyway?

[dafuge]

I'm still pretty annoyed about that. Bring back FM09's activation!

Other than the release day debacle, that was my favourite system of the lot. By a mile.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Resource hungry? Steam only uses about 60mb of memory. It uses less than firefox, internet explorer and around the same or less as programs like msn messenger, mozilla thunderbird and windows media player.

Difference being that the above applications are actually useful for something. Steam will just be taking 60mb to sit there in the background, doing absolutely nothing of relevance. That is excessive.

[Ackter]

I find the claim that this is essentially a "once in a lifetime inconvenience" absurd. As if activating the game within steam was everything you did. Sorry, but it is not. Every time you want to launch football manager you have to start steam, type in your password (if you dont want any other user of the same computer to have access to your steam account), wait for it to log in, click away the splash screens and weekly offers, find your games and FINALLY click launch. All this assumes that steam is actually working that day. Worst case scenario steam gives you a cryptic "we are sorry, but your game is unavailable" or wont connect at all (and refuse to go into offline mode)

And yes, the list of things to do is slightly exaggerated, but even the best case scenarios is far from a once-in-a-lifetime-activation.

If you create a shortcut to your desktop for FM it bypasses all of that and launches both Steam and FM at the same time. The only time the adverts pop up is when you close Steam now, and you can avoid that by turning your computer off without turning off Steam.

[RorysRocketThrow]

SEGA have been looking into this for some time, with some people that are pretty expert in the piracy and protection area. They're well aware of the limitations and success of STEAM so far.
After looking into it, we're pretty confident that we have a solution in place that will protect the game. And that for FM12 Steam is a viable method of reducing and at the very least significantly delaying piracy.

I personally disagree with the last statement though. Had we gone for a more harsh constant connection or invasive method of protection I think people would be more unhappy. The year I posted to say there was no activation needed on FM10 but you had to have the disk in the drive there was outcry because people wanted to play music or give their disc to a mate. Essentially people will be unhappy if anything we do gets in the way or makes it more difficult for them to play FM. We understand that, which is why the solution is a very very simple process of going online once.

As a programmer myself, I totally understand the sheer frustration with piracy. Really I do. Thats only on a small scale aswell.

My point is what about the people who are genuinely concerned about Steam, or just blatantly do not want or do not feel the need to use Steam because of past experiences and will not buy the game because of this decision - many of whom have bought the game previously long before Sega's involvement with Sports Interactive?

Are you saying you are quite happy to see them walk away?
Are you saying you are not happy to see them walk away but 'tough' because this is the decision we have made?

What about the people who don't have a choice? What about the little man in the street who doesn't have internet, who doesn't live close enough to a 'hotspot'?

[bcooper]

Steam games are pirated on day 0.

Pirates will be able to play on day of release.

How will steam, a platform that has its copy protection cracked on a regular basis DRAMATICALLY reduce piracy ?

We're hardly going to answer that to be fair. It'd be like saying "I've protected my valuables." Then saying "they're in a combination safe, in the basement. The safe is made by Yale and has 8 digits in the combination, no two numbers next to each other in the combination are the same. It's in the basement under a blanket". We think it will protect the game, we're not going to tell you how!

[kwillett]

Not at all... without steam, once a patch has been downloaded (say by a friend) it can be installed from any media.

[Lord Rowell]

Had we gone for a more harsh constant connection or invasive method of protection I think people would be more unhappy. The year I posted to say there was no activation needed on FM10 but you had to have the disk in the drive there was outcry because people wanted to play music or give their disc to a mate. Essentially people will be unhappy if anything we do gets in the way or makes it more difficult for them to play FM. We understand that, which is why the solution is a very very simple process of going online once.

Yes, if you're gone for a harsh constant connection or invasive method of protection, people would be more unhappy. But just because SI have chosen the least of 2 evils doesn't stop it from being an evil.

As for your comment about the disc in the drive re. FM10, that was an annoying inconvenience for some. What SI have created now is a barrier to access. The latter is far more serious.

[Kriss]

So any counter discussion is automatically invalid & those of us who do not want to install Steam or are unsure due to past bad experiences should just STFU & walk away without voicing our concerns?

Well cheers mate, I'll just crawl back under the woodwork that I've been hiding in for the last 4 years expect I haven't & if you've read some of my posts on the blogs I was until this afternoon really looking forward to this game.

You can have a look at Steam in a few minutes then uninstall it if you catch it installing cameras in your bedroom what bewilders is me is the mass hysteria from people who only think it might be a bad thing from the bad PR a few people are giving it.

The personal security excuse for not using it is hogwash, it's risk free compared with many apps that everybody uses every day.

[Chris Ritchie]

the solution is a very very simple process of going online once.

But that's not what Steam is. It's going online once and installing software that's neither needed nor wanted for a large number of your customers. There are options out there that genuinely do mean going online once and activating the game but you're not giving anyone the option.

[Siven]

What happens when you need a patch... do you take it to your local hotspot and sit there for 4 hours waiting for the patch to download....ridiculous post

What would you usually do to patch the game and dont have internet access?

Exactly.

[leftback in the changing room]

Well thank you SI and Sega. I have no interest in the 'benefits' of Steam. It is not installed on my PC. I actively avoid purchasing the likes of Civ 5 and the latter Total War games due to their insistence on activation through Steam. And now I have to actively avoid purchasing my favourite PC game; a game I have spent the best part of two decades playing.

Not because of the activation. But simply because nobody seems to be able to answer the simple question, posted several times so far: "If Steam is operating in offline mode, will it not interfere with my PC?" Because so far the answers are "Yes, except when it asks you why you aren't connected to the internet, or it randomly drops you out of whatever you are doing". So the answer is 'no'. And after wasting hours fixing my PC because my antivirus broke down whenever it automatically updated at the same time as Windows Update was in action, I'm very loath to run anything that doesn't know when to stay shut down.

So if somebody can assure me that when not connected to the internet, and with Steam in offline mode, it does nothing but sit quietly on my hard drive then I'll reconsider. I don't care if that's considered a luddite view.

[vlobben]

What would you usually do to patch the game and dont have internet access?

Exactly.

As written above, have a friend download it on a usb memory stick and bring it over. It's what I used to do some years ago at least

[Chris Ritchie]

What would you usually do to patch the game and dont have internet access?

Exactly.

Get your mate to put it on a USB stick?

[SLO_Fila]

We're hardly going to answer that to be fair. It'd be like saying "I've protected my valuables." Then saying "they're in a combination safe, in the basement. The safe is made by Yale and has 8 digits in the combination, no two numbers next to each other in the combination are the same. It's in the basement under a blanket". We think it will protect the game, we're not going to tell you how!

I know what steam will protect the game from and it's not really the piracy you are after (since you know it will be pirated anyway). 2nd hand sales that's what you are after and lately the game industry is treating the used games sales as something worse than piracy.

[bcooper]

I'll ask again - play or download? Because they're quite clearly not the same thing. Do you have statistics on length of time spent playing illegal copies of the game?

To be honest, no we don't. We have some pretty good stats on people that play pirated games, but not if they are playing for 10 minutes or 100 hours. We don't have stats about how long people that play the game off the disc play for either. But we have plenty of information to say that a lot of people that pirate the game are pretty passionate about the game and play it a lot. It's not absolutely nailed on in fact, but it's pretty much beyond reasonable doubt that the number of people that pirate the game and play it regularly is well over 7 figures.

[Lord Rowell]

You can have a look at Steam in a few minutes then uninstall it if you catch it installing cameras in your bedroom what bewilders is me is the mass hysteria from people who only think it might be a bad thing from the bad PR a few people are giving it.

The personal security excuse for not using it is hogwash, it's risk free compared with many apps that everybody uses every day.

I haven't seen mass hysteria here. I've seen people expressing a number of concerns about Steam, personal choice, and access issues.

You are using a straw man (misrepresenting people's arguments) here and it is, IMO, a disappointing way to engage with your customers.

[bcooper]

Perhaps you should fire those people who think its going to help against piracy. Its quite obvious they are incompetent.

Without knowing what those people know, that's a pretty hollow statement to be fair.

[SeanNUFC]

What would you usually do to patch the game and dont have internet access?

Exactly.

Aye, well said.

Now, onto the next argument.

[TacticalGenius]

All these people p*ssing and moaning about not having internet to activate, why? You have enough internet to come on here and whine about it...

[dafuge]

What would you usually do to patch the game and dont have internet access?

Exactly.

Send a telegram to a friend to send it via carrier pigeon

[Ackter]

All these people p*ssing and moaning about not having internet to activate, why? You have enough internet to come on here and whine about it...

You'll be surprised how many people are on here with their phones.

[roykela]

Aye, well said.

Now, onto the next argument.

Put the patch on a USB stick would probably be a common way.
But can that be done if it's through Steam?

[SeanNUFC]

Send a telegram to a friend to send it via carrier pigeon

.

[Barside]

You can have a look at Steam in a few minutes then uninstall it if you catch it installing cameras in your bedroom what bewilders is me is the mass hysteria from people who only think it might be a bad thing from the bad PR a few people are giving it.

The personal security excuse for not using it is hogwash, it's risk free compared with many apps that everybody uses every day.

Kriss, I am going to research for more feedback on Steam, when I first installed it for FM08 it was utter garbage & caused umpteen compatability issues with other programmes so TBH I do not trust it one bit & now I'm reading a few people posting about it trying to force itself back online, now this might just be a few problems with setup but I'm afraid it does not inspire me with confidence.

Basically from a PR point of view SI & SEGA have dropped the ball on this one, as I posted a little earlier this should have been made public months ago so that the reaction could be assessed & also allow for realted issues to be brought up & overcome.

[bcooper]

The only question I have is will Steam be able to cope with the demand in activation on release day? I remember before the sheer demand to activate took steam's servers down.

Personally I like this way of activation. You only need to use an internet connection once to activate, after that it will run as you expect without any issues.

Hi, if you are refering to FM09 activation, that wasn't an issue with the weight of traffic to STEAM to be fair to them, it was a bit of a combination of various horrendous **** ups and malicious intent. We're confident that STEAM can handle the traffic without issue.

[kwillett]

Put the patch on a USB stick would probably be a common way.
But can that be done if it's through Steam?

Absolutely not... steam insists on full control of your software patches

[The Welsh Lad]

Well thank you SI and Sega. I have no interest in the 'benefits' of Steam. It is not installed on my PC. I actively avoid purchasing the likes of Civ 5 and the latter Total War games due to their insistence on activation through Steam. And now I have to actively avoid purchasing my favourite PC game; a game I have spent the best part of two decades playing.

Not because of the activation. But simply because nobody seems to be able to answer the simple question, posted several times so far: "If Steam is operating in offline mode, will it not interfere with my PC?" Because so far the answers are "Yes, except when it asks you why you aren't connected to the internet, or it randomly drops you out of whatever you are doing". So the answer is 'no'. And after wasting hours fixing my PC because my antivirus broke down whenever it automatically updated at the same time as Windows Update was in action, I'm very loath to run anything that doesn't know when to stay shut down.

So if somebody can assure me that when not connected to the internet, and with Steam in offline mode, it does nothing but sit quietly on my hard drive then I'll reconsider. I don't care if that's considered a luddite view.

From what I can gather from the two threads is that in offline mode it just sits in you quick launch menu by you clock like you volume does or like my lexmark imaging studio.

[kwillett]

It sems to me that if you dont have a readily available internet connection SI/Sega are effectively saying that you represent such a small custom that frankly they dont give a rats ass

[Kriss]

I haven't seen mass hysteria here. I've seen people expressing a number of concerns about Steam, personal choice, and access issues.

You are using a straw man (misrepresenting people's arguments) here and it is, IMO, a disappointing way to engage with your customers.

They aren't my customers and I'm not misrepresenting any arguments.

The chief objection seems to be that a separate application is needed for authentication, so what if SI produced an authenticator which was a separate app, would the same objections be valid?

Steam doesn't require payment, it doesn't require sensitive information, so why are people so obsessively against it (many of whom have never tried it)?

[The Welsh Lad]

What would you usually do to patch the game and dont have internet access?

Exactly.

When I first moved out of home and didn't have a connection I got my parent to download them and copy them onto disc

[roykela]

Absolutely not... steam insists on full control of your software patches

That's what i thought. So if you want to patch the game then you'll definitely need to connect through Steam more than once.

[The Welsh Lad]

That's what i thought. So if you want to patch the game then, you'll definitely need to connect through Steam more than once.

Hopefully someone from SI will confirm but I would assume that they will be available from the SI website and through here

[SeanNUFC]

Hopefully someone from SI will confirm but I would assume that they will be available from the SI website and through here

Think that would calm alot of people down if they did that.

[Ernest166]

Hi,

I wanted to know what can be done if i dont have an internet connection in my home ? how will i be able to play the game i love ?

[kwillett]

Hopefully someone from SI will confirm but I would assume that they will be available from the SI website and through here

The steam engine will not allow external patching

[phnompenhandy]

I'd like to add a new dimension to this discussion. I've skimmed through 7 pages and i don't think this has been considered:

I'm willing to wager that all the posters (SI employees included) who are supporting this measure are based in the UK, US or other developed nations with reliable broadband internet connections. Despite SI occasionally throwing out the term 'worldwide', no one seems to have considered the market outside that zone. Now I have no idea what the figures are re. piracy, but I can say with certainty that piracy is particularly serious in poorer nations with expensive and unreliable internet connections. I accept that the market in Cambodia is negligible, but I do recall a senior SI person posting the other day that the game would not be translated into Turkish because most of the players there had pirated copies.

The point I want to make, therefore, is that this measure will deter gamers in developing countries who have poor internet connections, the very part of the global market that is particularly vulnerable to piracy. In taking such a Western-centric perspective, I think SEGA/SI have restricted their market to the most developed nations rather than aiming globally.

[bcooper]

over 6 pages and not bothered to read through them to see if this has been stated.

This link with steam has nothing to do with stopping piracy.... just a corporate link up to bring us advertising drivel while we play the game...

max, had you read the posts you'd see people from SEGA and SI, including me, stating that that absolutely isn't the case. SEGA and SI do not benefit from any ad revenue or any other payment, nor have we paid Steam anything.
For guidance on SI's POV on advertising at the expense of their game quality or consumer desire, please note that a large percentage of the hoardings around the pitch are given to charity each year. Those that are given to advertisers are not given unrealistically, for example taking all the hoardings around the ground, or 3 in a row even. Advertisers would love it, SI don't allow it because its not realistic to be playing at a lower league ground where they have LED dynamic ads. SI and SEGA even give a donation from every FM we've ever sold to WarChild. You aren't dealing with a horrendous money grabbing developer here, you're buying a game from, in my opinion, one of the more principled and idealistic companies out there. They deserve a bit more respect, in my opinion.

[TacticalGenius]

Hopefully someone from SI will confirm but I would assume that they will be available from the SI website and through here

Only DVD installs can be manually patched.

[llDracoll]

I'm not going to deny that I don't like this decision at all (Due to the fact that it depends on third-party software, as good as Steam may be), but I understand it

So, the problem is that you can't activate the same FM12 copy on more than one Steam account (Thank Chuck Norris I'm the only one in my family who plays FM!) but it IS the lesser of two evils, when you consider the 'second evil' is piracy (Supposing it works, and piracy actually drops this time)

After all, if they allowed to activate the same FM12 copy on more than one account... it would have solved NOTHING

Still, the only way SI and SEGA would stop using this method is... failure at decreasing piracy, and nothing else

PS: It could be the fact that I don't buy games on Steam (Since I don't have a job yet. In fact, the only one I have is TF2) but... I'm not sure if Steam is THAT annoying in Offline Mode. The times I left it in Offline Mode, it's never been that way

[Wiggins' Young Boys]

No, it's not. It's game theory and much more complicated than that. You underestimate the power of word-of-mouth.

This series is heavily-pirated, partly because it is so awesome. However, pirates spread word-of-mouth too. In poorer nations, piracy will be close to 100% but then again, once that nation starts developing, or the game becomes really tempting, some of that percentage will turn into paying customers. You could not do that if piracy didn't exist.

If you like, you will get more direct benefits, but less indirect benefits.

Plus, there is the awkward area where pirates actually buy more. Stamp out piracy and you stamp out these customers.

There are some pirates whom you will never make money off - those aren't of your concern. Your concern is those who might buy but don't for whatever reasonable reason. Those people may pay you in the future. Not those who will never buy.

If your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 1000 times, there is no difference to your direct bottom line if your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 10000 times. The piracy rate is a bit of a misnomer. If your piracy rate is high, all it means is that you have more potential future customers to tap into - that's it.



Do you think this actually matters? Anyone who obtains your product before the actual release date is pirating, whether it's Steam-only or not. The product can be leaked whether it's Steam-only or not. Whether it's Steam-only or not does not matter.



Strawman much? Nobody has said that you've reduced our choices in purchasing the software - you've reduced our choices in activating the software.



This is true for pretty much every single piece of software out there. Let's not pretend FM is special here.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...re-piracy-rate

Look at that!



I think this poll is going in the right direction then.

Sure, most people might not mind... But it's the customers you've lost that surely matter.

Like I said, this will be a pyrrhic victory in your fight for piracy, and don't be surprised if your bottom line is impacted by it. Piracy rate is just one of those mildly interesting KPIs that organisations love to optimise, but the bottom line is what truly matters.

I am a developer, and I have developed software before. I've seen it pirated before. I've released digital work under copyright and seen it misused without my permission before. You feel indignation, anger and annoyance when you see this - how dare this person take my work and use them for free, perhaps to his or her own benefit! However, I took a step back and thought about it - they used my work because they thought it was fun, useful or exciting for them. It helped them in some way. Then I think that there could be loads more people out there who appreciate my work, and that is the market I need to aim for. People will always pirate my work - but it is those who appreciate it and reuse it with permission who really mean something to me. I treat these people as "trialists" who can be converted into customers. It's where you realise that you feel indignation, anger and annoyance due to a loss of control, not a financial loss. I put my heart and soul into that piece of work, and someone misuses it - that effort feels for nothing. Yet I know that that person is only helping me become more known indirectly - I may benefit from it further down the line.

What I really need to care about is keeping my existing customer-base, and growing it.

You cannot stop piracy by making piracy more tempting. Reducing choice does exactly that - it drives people to pirate, where they can get a piece of software with less of a burden.

Piracy needs to be treated more as an overhead and an opportunity rather than a slammed-shut door.

Photoshop is an example. I'd guess most copies of Photoshop are pirated nowadays, and have been for a while. However, the kid that gets his or her hands grubby with a pirated version of Photoshop and falls in love with it is likely to become a paying licensee when he or she graduates from University with an Art degree into the media industry. All this means is that Photoshop has found a potential market for budding art students, and that if it can make its software so awesome and value-for-money that young students start using it, the company benefits in the long run.

Look at this: http://piracy.ssrc.org/adobe-logic/

Bill Gates has spoke on getting China drunk on Microsoft software (pirated, of course), so that when China's economy grows, Microsoft essentially locks-in and silos the Chinese into Microsoft products, benefiting them in the long run. Windows and Office are pirated heavily, but the last thing Microsoft wants to do is come down hard on it right now.

Spread your seeds, and wait for them to blossom.

I must stress that I believe piracy is wrong, since it is against the law in many countries - but there are ways to tackle piracy that are perhaps not that logical at first. One example is legalising drugs - for some, there might be incredulous gasps, but if you think about it, it's not the most idiotic suggestion in the world (i.e. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...isation-report - although I know this is controversial in itself).

this is the best single post i've seen in the whole thread...

[Kriss]

Kriss, I am going to research for more feedback on Steam, when I first installed it for FM08 it was utter garbage & caused umpteen compatability issues with other programmes so TBH I do not trust it one bit & now I'm reading a few people posting about it trying to force itself back online, now this might just be a few problems with setup but I'm afraid it does not inspire me with confidence.

Basically from a PR point of view SI & SEGA have dropped the ball on this one, as I posted a little earlier this should have been made public months ago so that the reaction could be assessed & also allow for realted issues to be brought up & overcome.

If it helps, I've used Steam for 3 years, I haven't had a single issue with it and I play Civ V (plenty of issues with that) Railroad Tycoons 2 & 3, Rome, Sid Meiers Pirates and more.

I spend long periods at outlaws in Northern Ireland and Steam is a godsend because whichever relative is boring me I can just log onto their PC and play any of my games I want to.

Give it a try and if you can then point out any reasons to not use it I'll buy you a gallon of Guinness

[Barside]

To be honest, no we don't. We have some pretty good stats on people that play pirated games, but not if they are playing for 10 minutes or 100 hours. We don't have stats about how long people that play the game off the disc play for either. But we have plenty of information to say that a lot of people that pirate the game are pretty passionate about the game and play it a lot. It's not absolutely nailed on in fact, but it's pretty much beyond reasonable doubt that the number of people that pirate the game and play it regularly is well over 7 figures.

That sounds like a number of assumptions have been made a I heard similar language at my last employer where the previous senior management team were cooking the books.

Do not interpret that as doubt, I fully accept that counterfeiting in all its forms in an issue but if figures like 25% of pirate copy holders & over 7 figures are used then these should be based on hard facts & not numbers extrapolated from other statistical data such as convictions, seizures & confirmed data for other similar products which is how this is coming across.

[Ackter]

Kriss, I am going to research for more feedback on Steam, when I first installed it for FM08 it was utter garbage & caused umpteen compatability issues with other programmes so TBH I do not trust it one bit & now I'm reading a few people posting about it trying to force itself back online, now this might just be a few problems with setup but I'm afraid it does not inspire me with confidence.

I did the same - I installed Steam a few months after it was first release, and again around FM09 and though it was horrendous. But since FM10 I've been using it with no problems.

[Cougar2010]

Only DVD installs can be manually patched.

But as they will be registered with Steam they fall under the Steam banner.

[bcooper]

SI R.I.P this is the end

your going to lose far more sales this way ..

piracy you just dont understand it at all ....

If iv downloaded a pirate copy of a game and didnt like it ...i then would not buy the game ...

But on the other hand if i liked it , I WOULD THEN go out and buy it ...

the best way to beat piracy is a good game ...

it works just the same as downloading music or a moive .. if i liked it i would buy it

Sorry, I disagree. Even if we assume that it's fact that if you like a piece of music that you pirated you would then buy it, it isn't the same. You may then go and buy a 99p song, or a £7 cd. A £30 game is different, and has been shown to be with research. And it costs that much because it's far more expensive to put together a game than an album. Also, if you like a song you pirated you may well go and see the band in concert, or even buy the back catalogue cheap on Amazon. All of that is income and it's how the music industry comes to make money now. Again that's not the same for games, you won't buy FM's back catalogue if you pirate and like FM12, neither will you go and see SI in concert!

[Ackter]

They aren't my customers and I'm not misrepresenting any arguments.

The chief objection seems to be that a separate application is needed for authentication, so what if SI produced an authenticator which was a separate app, would the same objections be valid?

Steam doesn't require payment, it doesn't require sensitive information, so why are people so obsessively against it (many of whom have never tried it)?

Non-Steam installations in previous versions required a third party program called installshield to install the game...

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Hi, if you are refering to FM09 activation, that wasn't an issue with the weight of traffic to STEAM to be fair to them, it was a bit of a combination of various horrendous **** ups and malicious intent. We're confident that STEAM can handle the traffic without issue.

Can I assume from that then that the printed authorisation code supplied with the disc will actually be printed in such a way that it can actually be read this year (ie "fit for purpose")?, because (and Im certain I speak for the majority here) that would be splendid!

[dafuge]

If it helps, I've used Steam for 3 years, I haven't had a single issue with it and I play Civ V (plenty of issues with that) Railroad Tycoons 2 & 3, Rome, Sid Meiers Pirates and more.

I spend long periods at outlaws in Northern Ireland and Steam is a godsend because whichever relative is boring me I can just log onto their PC and play any of my games I want to.

Give it a try and if you can then point out any reasons to not use it I'll buy you a gallon of Guinness

For multiple games I can see that Steam could be great, if you only play FM then I can't see the benefit.

Is that worth at least a pint?

[Barside]

If it helps, I've used Steam for 3 years, I haven't had a single issue with it and I play Civ V (plenty of issues with that) Railroad Tycoons 2 & 3, Rome, Sid Meiers Pirates and more.

I spend long periods at outlaws in Northern Ireland and Steam is a godsend because whichever relative is boring me I can just log onto their PC and play any of my games I want to.

Give it a try and if you can then point out any reasons to not use it I'll buy you a gallon of Guinness

If you're only offering that black rubbish I'll sing Steam's praises from the highest peak, it horrible & I don;t care what anyone says it was still horrible when I was forced to consume it in Dublin.

[lukino99]

Two questions (pardon me if they've already been asked):

Will people know at the time of purchase that the game can only be activated online?
Is it stated in big bold letters on the front of the cover or is it written in font 2 at the back?

Thanks

Ps: I'm not a marketing genius, but from my little experience this is an awful move from SI and it will surely affect sales (it takes little).

[phnompenhandy]

You absolutely can get the game from the shops. Buy the game as you always do, take your laptop to one of the hotspots you visit to browse and activate the game online. Then turn the game to offline mode and go home. You can play FM12.

I'm still confused about this. does 'offline mode' mean disconnected from the internet, or not?

Which scenarios are possible, AFTER the game has been activated via Steam?

1. Not connected to the internet; can boot up and play FM12

2. Connected to the internet, but uninstalled Steam.

3. Connected to the internet, Steam installed but turned off (therefore won't auto-install flawed patches)

4. Connected to internet but connection fails - can one continue playing and saving game?

[Ernest166]

No, it's not. It's game theory and much more complicated than that. You underestimate the power of word-of-mouth.

This series is heavily-pirated, partly because it is so awesome. However, pirates spread word-of-mouth too. In poorer nations, piracy will be close to 100% but then again, once that nation starts developing, or the game becomes really tempting, some of that percentage will turn into paying customers. You could not do that if piracy didn't exist.

If you like, you will get more direct benefits, but less indirect benefits.

Plus, there is the awkward area where pirates actually buy more. Stamp out piracy and you stamp out these customers.

There are some pirates whom you will never make money off - those aren't of your concern. Your concern is those who might buy but don't for whatever reasonable reason. Those people may pay you in the future. Not those who will never buy.

If your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 1000 times, there is no difference to your direct bottom line if your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 10000 times. The piracy rate is a bit of a misnomer. If your piracy rate is high, all it means is that you have more potential future customers to tap into - that's it.



Do you think this actually matters? Anyone who obtains your product before the actual release date is pirating, whether it's Steam-only or not. The product can be leaked whether it's Steam-only or not. Whether it's Steam-only or not does not matter.



Strawman much? Nobody has said that you've reduced our choices in purchasing the software - you've reduced our choices in activating the software.



This is true for pretty much every single piece of software out there. Let's not pretend FM is special here.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...re-piracy-rate

Look at that!



I think this poll is going in the right direction then.

Sure, most people might not mind... But it's the customers you've lost that surely matter.

Like I said, this will be a pyrrhic victory in your fight for piracy, and don't be surprised if your bottom line is impacted by it. Piracy rate is just one of those mildly interesting KPIs that organisations love to optimise, but the bottom line is what truly matters.

I am a developer, and I have developed software before. I've seen it pirated before. I've released digital work under copyright and seen it misused without my permission before. You feel indignation, anger and annoyance when you see this - how dare this person take my work and use them for free, perhaps to his or her own benefit! However, I took a step back and thought about it - they used my work because they thought it was fun, useful or exciting for them. It helped them in some way. Then I think that there could be loads more people out there who appreciate my work, and that is the market I need to aim for. People will always pirate my work - but it is those who appreciate it and reuse it with permission who really mean something to me. I treat these people as "trialists" who can be converted into customers. It's where you realise that you feel indignation, anger and annoyance due to a loss of control, not a financial loss. I put my heart and soul into that piece of work, and someone misuses it - that effort feels for nothing. Yet I know that that person is only helping me become more known indirectly - I may benefit from it further down the line.

What I really need to care about is keeping my existing customer-base, and growing it.

You cannot stop piracy by making piracy more tempting. Reducing choice does exactly that - it drives people to pirate, where they can get a piece of software with less of a burden.

Piracy needs to be treated more as an overhead and an opportunity rather than a slammed-shut door.

Photoshop is an example. I'd guess most copies of Photoshop are pirated nowadays, and have been for a while. However, the kid that gets his or her hands grubby with a pirated version of Photoshop and falls in love with it is likely to become a paying licensee when he or she graduates from University with an Art degree into the media industry. All this means is that Photoshop has found a potential market for budding art students, and that if it can make its software so awesome and value-for-money that young students start using it, the company benefits in the long run.

Look at this: http://piracy.ssrc.org/adobe-logic/

Bill Gates has spoke on getting China drunk on Microsoft software (pirated, of course), so that when China's economy grows, Microsoft essentially locks-in and silos the Chinese into Microsoft products, benefiting them in the long run. Windows and Office are pirated heavily, but the last thing Microsoft wants to do is come down hard on it right now.

Spread your seeds, and wait for them to blossom.

I must stress that I believe piracy is wrong, since it is against the law in many countries - but there are ways to tackle piracy that are perhaps not that logical at first. One example is legalising drugs - for some, there might be incredulous gasps, but if you think about it, it's not the most idiotic suggestion in the world (i.e. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...isation-report - although I know this is controversial in itself).

Someone from the official servers gotta read this thing.
If no actions are gonna be taken,things wont get better.

[Ackter]

If it helps, I've used Steam for 3 years, I haven't had a single issue with it and I play Civ V (plenty of issues with that) Railroad Tycoons 2 & 3, Rome, Sid Meiers Pirates and more.

I spend long periods at outlaws in Northern Ireland and Steam is a godsend because whichever relative is boring me I can just log onto their PC and play any of my games I want to.

Give it a try and if you can then point out any reasons to not use it I'll buy you a gallon of Guinness

You need to visit www.gog.com asap...

[The Welsh Lad]

But as they will be registered with Steam they fall under the Steam banner.

Unless its changed I've download all my patches from the SI website or from the forum, but if it has then its no biggy to me but I hope the January transfer window patch isn't automatic and will be available optional nothing I hate more than if I have to start again for whatever reason i have to have the new squads.

[bcooper]

Just had a thought relating to an earlier reply.

Someone posted about being able to play the game in Germany as FM is blocked on steam when accessed from a German ISP so I was wondering if SI have considered a work around for any FM gamers who are based in Germany.

Fair question, and I honestly don;t know the answer. You can thank German law and EA exclusive license for us not being able to serve Germany, but for forces and people activating disc games there, I don;t know. That doesn't mean SEGA haven't though of it, before someone jumps on it, just that at this time I can't ask and don't know!

[Barside]

I'm still confused about this. does 'offline mode' mean disconnected from the internet, or not?

Which scenarios are possible, AFTER the game has been activated via Steam?

1. Not connected to the internet; can boot up and play FM12

2. Connected to the internet, but uninstalled Steam.

3. Connected to the internet, Steam installed but turned off (therefore won't auto-install flawed patches)

4. Connected to internet but connection fails - can one continue playing and saving game?

Can I add a 5th? Connected to the interent but Steam servers are down, can I still play FM?

[Cougar2010]

I'm still confused about this. does 'offline mode' mean disconnected from the internet, or not?

Offline mode means not connected to the Internet.

Which scenarios are possible, AFTER the game has been activated via Steam?

1. Not connected to the internet; can boot up and play FM12

Steam loads in offline mode if you have your details saved and you can play FM with Steam running in the background.

2. Connected to the internet, but uninstalled Steam.

You can't play, you need to have Steam.

3. Connected to the internet, Steam installed but turned off (therefore won't auto-install flawed patches)

Steam needs to load and run in background to run FM. Auto patching can be turned off.

4. Connected to internet but connection fails - can one continue playing and saving game?

See #1

[Ackter]

Unless its changed I've download all my patches from the SI website or from the forum, but if it has then its no biggy to me but I hope the January transfer window patch isn't automatic and will be available optional nothing I hate more than if I have to start again for whatever reason i have to have the new squads.

You've been able to choose which database to load on a new game for several versions now, I doubt they'll change that for 2012.

[MAINBOY]

Offline mode means not connected to the Internet.




Steam loads in offline mode if you have your details saved and you can play FM with Steam running in the background.




You can't play, you need to have Steam.





Steam needs to load and run in background to run FM. Auto patching can be turned off.





See #1

So you have to use steam. Joke

[Barside]

Fair question, and I honestly don;t know the answer. You can thank German law and EA exclusive license for us not being able to serve Germany, but for forces and people activating disc games there, I don;t know. That doesn't mean SEGA haven't though of it, before someone jumps on it, just that at this time I can't ask and don't know!

TBH I missed it when a post eluded to it earlier & I should know better so no blame to take on board.

Would also be worth some browny points in the press if a solution could be arranged & as the garrison's are British soveriegn soil German law on this matter should not apply, would be rather embarrassing if a distribution agreement has already be made with NAAFI.

[Kriss]

You need to visit www.gog.com asap...

Cor!!!! Alpha Centauri $5.99, downloading now

[Kriss]

Can I add a 5th? Connected to the interent but Steam servers are down, can I still play FM?

Yes provided your details are saved Steam being unavailable will prompt the play offline option.

[The Welsh Lad]

You've been able to choose which database to load on a new game for several versions now, I doubt they'll change that for 2012.

I'm not scrolling through trying to find it but, I am sure someone said that if patches are download through steam you can go back to a previous patch.

So what I need to know will patches still be downloadable from SI website i.e. optional and be able to revert to previous patch or Because the game is linked to steam are patches only downloadable through steam therefore automatic and can't revert back.

[Ackter]

I'm not scrolling through trying to find it but, I am sure someone said that if patches are download through steam you can go back to a previous patch.

So what I need to know will patches still be downloadable from SI website i.e. optional and be able to revert to previous patch or Because the game is linked to steam are patches only downloadable through steam therefore automatic and can't revert back.

We don't know yet, sorry - someone from SI or Sega will need to answer that.

[GlasgowRob]

the problem is, this isnt a valid anti piracy measure, Steam games are just as susceptible to the tealeaves as any other games out there.

and unfortunately as per every year the dodgy people will have this available before its becomes available to the masses,

i guess this means no getting it a day or 2 before release either now


but I do understand where SI/Sega are coming from, you want to secure your intellectual property and unfortunately it seems that this is the only option open to you atm. Steam is not the end of the world. it does have a few good qualities. especially if you have access to a fast connection.

I feel sorry for Si in all this as they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. maybe Si could release a virus laden copy of fm12 in hooky form surely be more effective to give a detterent to the piracy brigade

[Viggo Vickers]

People claiming they won't buy FM12 because of Steam are only hurting themselves.

When I look at Football Manager series, the biggest thing I see is value for money. For $40, I have got over 1500 hours of entertainment. I am honestly struggling to come up with any other purchase or service you can buy for that price and get that much entertainment out of it. And face it, there is no other series out there that compares to Football Manager, there are other simulators but they are not to the same standard, quality or polish.

Only people who I can see who will suffer out of this is people with a Desktop and no internet access.

[Things Could Get Messi]

sorry got to page 3 of the thread and couldnt be bothered to read all the moaning and false information anymore. have used steam for all of fm11 and got no problem with it. already purchased fm12 on there earlier before this got announced.

the benefits of having steam are...
it doesnt take up a lot of space on a computer
you CAN play in offline mode, i do this 95% of the time and my internet is regularly disconnected when i do it.
you will only need an internet connection for activating the game and patches if you want them
if you are logged into steam, it will tell you that a new patch is available. if you havent been on here for a couple of days you may not be aware it had been released
steam is barely noticeable esp when you are playing the game
it is free to set up an account and easy to do as well.
your game DOES save to your computer, not your account

the only people i feel sorry for are those with no internet connection at all. i just hope SI and sega have made it clear on the box that an internet connection and steam is required to activate the game. hope i havent upset too many people with my comments.

[Barside]

People claiming they won't buy FM12 because of Steam are only hurting themselves.

We know that which is why this situation is so frustrating, having played FM since 1992 (there was a break between 96-99 when I didn't have a PC) I am not keen on the idea of skipping a release but it might come to that.

[Abramovic]

People claiming they won't buy FM12 because of Steam are only hurting themselves.

When I look at Football Manager series, the biggest thing I see is value for money. For $40, I have got over 1500 hours of entertainment. I am honestly struggling to come up with any other purchase or service you can buy for that price and get that much entertainment out of it. And face it, there is no other series out there that compares to Football Manager, there are other simulators but they are not to the same standard, quality or polish.

Only people who I can see who will suffer out of this is people with a Desktop and no internet access.

People are not exactly hurting themselves more SI, as many people will be driven to piracy

The game does offer value but i still cant understand the reasoning behind the price if im using a digital download and cd. Surely it should be cheaper down to costs of packaging etc..

[x42bn6]

When I look at Football Manager series, the biggest thing I see is value for money. For $40, I have got over 1500 hours of entertainment.

FM has always been value for money in this sense, but for those who dislike this new measure, it's now significantly less value for money than before, due to the additional hoops, moral conscience and/or principles (add or remove as appropriate per person).

However, nobody bases their purchases purely on value for money on a time basis - management simulations in general are better value for money anyway, but that's not the reason why they are generally much less popular than FPSes, which have a new version every few months.

[gmilitao]

Someone said: "The piracy could be looked for a opportunity, not slamming doors". I agree with that. Not all the people who takes a pirate program are a *******, a thief or etc. These people could be a potential costumer also. It's only a question for make the product more easy to buy in some places. In Brazil, for example, we don't have the FM Boxed Version sold. Why????? Here we have a lot of guys who take the warez version, but i think a lot of people wants to take a boxed version of FM (some gays buy with STEAM also) if the game was released in the same day for UK or few days later, not months.

[bcooper]

There are some pirates whom you will never make money off - those aren't of your concern. Your concern is those who might buy but don't for whatever reasonable reason. Those people may pay you in the future. Not those who will never buy.

If your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 1000 times, there is no difference to your direct bottom line if your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 10000 times. The piracy rate is a bit of a misnomer. If your piracy rate is high, all it means is that you have more potential future customers to tap into - that's it.



Do you think this actually matters? Anyone who obtains your product before the actual release date is pirating, whether it's Steam-only or not. The product can be leaked whether it's Steam-only or not. Whether it's Steam-only or not does not matter.



Strawman much? Nobody has said that you've reduced our choices in purchasing the software - you've reduced our choices in activating the software.



This is true for pretty much every single piece of software out there. Let's not pretend FM is special here.





Sure, most people might not mind... But it's the customers you've lost that surely matter.

Like I said, this will be a pyrrhic victory in your fight for piracy, and don't be surprised if your bottom line is impacted by it. Piracy rate is just one of those mildly interesting KPIs that organisations love to optimise, but the bottom line is what truly matters.

I am a developer, and I have developed software before. I've seen it pirated before. I've released digital work under copyright and seen it misused without my permission before. You feel indignation, anger and annoyance when you see this - how dare this person take my work and use them for free, perhaps to his or her own benefit! However, I took a step back and thought about it - they used my work because they thought it was fun, useful or exciting for them. It helped them in some way. Then I think that there could be loads more people out there who appreciate my work, and that is the market I need to aim for. People will always pirate my work - but it is those who appreciate it and reuse it with permission who really mean something to me. I treat these people as "trialists" who can be converted into customers. It's where you realise that you feel indignation, anger and annoyance due to a loss of control, not a financial loss. I put my heart and soul into that piece of work, and someone misuses it - that effort feels for nothing. Yet I know that that person is only helping me become more known indirectly - I may benefit from it further down the line.

What I really need to care about is keeping my existing customer-base, and growing it.

You cannot stop piracy by making piracy more tempting. Reducing choice does exactly that - it drives people to pirate, where they can get a piece of software with less of a burden.

Piracy needs to be treated more as an overhead and an opportunity rather than a slammed-shut door.

Bill Gates has spoke on getting China drunk on Microsoft software (pirated, of course), so that when China's economy grows, Microsoft essentially locks-in and silos the Chinese into Microsoft products, benefiting them in the long run. Windows and Office are pirated heavily, but the last thing Microsoft wants to do is come down hard on it right now.

Spread your seeds, and wait for them to blossom.
.

Firstly, thanks for one of the more considered and constructive posts on the subject.
A few areas where we will disagree I'm afraid...
I agree that there's no difference to you if 1000 or 10000 people pirate the game, the income is the same. But if you don't protect your product in some way, you are relying on the good nature of consumers to pay for what they can get for free. There's a reason people lock their shops when they close at night. How many of those 1000, or 10000 people pirate the game because it's an option, an easy option?
The game will not be leaked before release and we think it is important that there aren't pirated versions of the game available before legitimate customers can get the game. It's not fair on the genuine purchasers, and it also means we're not offering people a choice to buy the game even if they want to!
It's not a strawman at all about making the game available on disc. That was in response to people posting that the idea of selling on disc that then needs to be activated as being devised by idiots. I was just saying that there was thinking behind it.

I'm also not pretending that FM is the only pirated game out there. But it's the software in question here and it's pirated heavily, not just in developing or poor nations, in developed rich countries by people that go on Facebook and brag about it because they think it's ok. It's not.
This isn't a strategy that's born out of anger or frustration, although it is both frustrating and, erm, anger-making. We spend millions and months each year on making the game better, delivering a better and better product to turn people on to buying it. That's how we try to convince people to become legitimate customers. However just leaving the door open and operating a trust system of payment just isn't viable. Microsoft may be able to sit and wait for entire economies to grow before seeing the benefits of their work, most other organisations can't.

We don't believe we've made piracy more attractive. We don't believe we've put a heavy burden on legitimate consumers, it's a hurdle sure, but we think it's a very low one.

[Long_Time_Player]

I purposefully made an account here to say this:

Piracy is bad , steam is bad , we cant win

I have had 2-3 steam accounts (forgot password and COULD not get accounts back) so do niot lose your login details ever !

I dont like steam , never have , why should we have to have steam 'running in the background' ? Its not like FM doesn't use enough RAM as it is.

Is it not possible to activate via steam but then never have to have steam running again until patch time ? Having steam running is just another set of processors running for no real reason , people who have small ram , slow processors will struggle even more than FM2011.

People will still have a choice , buy the game and activate via steam OR d/l via torrent and wait for crack (which will come along maybe even day1)

I normally buy the game 1 year and play that missing out on next years game then buy again , i dislike yearly games , theres no need , i love FM (have done since the old amiga days (Champman Italia mmmm) but dont like being given new features when old bugs need fixing.

Please SI / SEGA fix old issues , offer better online modes , dont waste time givin the interface a new look as it is fine , fix bugs then give new features.

Back to steam lol

I will have no choice but to d/l and install steam , which i dont want to , but thats the way it is.

If you dont have/cant afford an internet connection maybe try taking you pc/laptop to a friends and doing the activation , SEGA has stated here you dont need to be connected to the internet to play the game so . . . .

Steam - free + internet connection
FM2012 - £20-£30

Not much is it ?

[max-riot]

max, had you read the posts you'd see people from SEGA and SI, including me, stating that that absolutely isn't the case. SEGA and SI do not benefit from any ad revenue or any other payment, nor have we paid Steam anything.
For guidance on SI's POV on advertising at the expense of their game quality or consumer desire, please note that a large percentage of the hoardings around the pitch are given to charity each year. Those that are given to advertisers are not given unrealistically, for example taking all the hoardings around the ground, or 3 in a row even. Advertisers would love it, SI don't allow it because its not realistic to be playing at a lower league ground where they have LED dynamic ads. SI and SEGA even give a donation from every FM we've ever sold to WarChild. You aren't dealing with a horrendous money grabbing developer here, you're buying a game from, in my opinion, one of the more principled and idealistic companies out there. They deserve a bit more respect, in my opinion.

give me a break mate...

you work for a massive international company that like others are only interested in one thing PROFIT...... the ads are there for a reason to generate sales.
be it in the game it self or through steam...

as for the charity work, care to let me know how much you save on tax because of charitable donations..????

[Louwen]

Hmmm...

Fresh install of Steam uses 251,5MB of RAM on Mac OS X 10.6.8 ....

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/4186/steamxa.png

[bcooper]

You are making a presumption he is using a laptop.

Also internet hotspots aren't exactly everywhere outside London and other major cities.

He said he visited hotspots to browse the internet, so I assumed that he isn't lugging a desktop around with him, and that he visits hotspots!

[dafuge]

Hmmm...

Fresh install of Steam uses 251,5MB of RAM on Mac OS X 10.6.8 ....

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/4186/steamxa.png

The child in me wants to mention that red button. Must.... resist....

[bcooper]

That sounds like a number of assumptions have been made a I heard similar language at my last employer where the previous senior management team were cooking the books.

Do not interpret that as doubt, I fully accept that counterfeiting in all its forms in an issue but if figures like 25% of pirate copy holders & over 7 figures are used then these should be based on hard facts & not numbers extrapolated from other statistical data such as convictions, seizures & confirmed data for other similar products which is how this is coming across.

We're not going to go into the sales figures here or anywhere, hence the vagueness.