A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[themadsheep2001]

So why spend X amount of £'s making CD/DVD's of the game when after the inital activation they are basically useless? Did a 4 year old think this system through?

Because some people still like being able to install via CD/DVD?? not really rocket science. This is really not the end of the world

[Bertie BG]

Bertie BG - "More people play the game pirated each year than do legally." - Complete crap, now SI are even resorting to bull to try to wriggle out of this one.

It's true. Whether you believe me or not that's your prerogative, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's the honest truth.

As was mentioned in the opening post. If a quarter of people who pirate the game instead buy it then our sales would over double. Piracy is a huge problem for Football Manager.

[Dave80]

Without stating the flipping obvious mate, most of us have mobile phones!

What kindof phone do you have?

EDIT: That looks off-topic, you can connect some phones to your PC/Laptop and there-by connect the PC/Laptop to the internet.. meaning you can get steam and spend 5 mins activating it then set it to offline mode.

[Ackter]

So why spend X amount of £'s making CD/DVD's of the game when after the inital activation they are basically useless? Did a 4 year old think this system through?

It's ideal for me - means I can install the game without it destroying my download limit.

[Wiggins' Young Boys]

No overreaction here and no hysterics. I just don't want Steam on my computer. I've installed it before, didn't like it and have never installed it since. In this day and age, it is nice to have a choice to be honest. I don't like having to pay my hard earned money for a game then be told I have to install a piece of Software I don't want, to be able to play it.

I've bought every single game this company has produced and even bought extra copies when i've been stupid enough to lose a copy. Piracy?

You've just lost a customer.

consumer choice is what has been sacrificed by the media/entertainment industry in their bid to chase increased profits... i mean... pirates... my bad

[MAINBOY]

I'am thinking about not getting the game now. So we have to have use steam with the disc. Sorry absoulte joke.

[Tommy_Styles]

Firstly, as has already been stated no money changed hands with Steam. We're using them because we feel they offer the best system for combating piracy that is currently available.

To answer your question. Once activated through Steam you won't need the CD any more.

Fair enough, thank you for your answer =). I suppose the sad and hard fact is that piracy is winning the battle, also over the backs of paying customers =(

[Bertie BG]

So why spend X amount of £'s making CD/DVD's of the game when after the inital activation they are basically useless? Did a 4 year old think this system through?

And if everybody needs internet access and Steam to activate anyway, people may aswell just buy it through steam. Are you sure you havent taken any money off Steam?

Because retail is still the most popular way of buying the game and, as many people have mentioned in this thread, they prefer to own the boxed copy. It's just, thanks to Steam and other digital providers, not necessarily the only way of doing things any more.

EDIT: As Ackter has just pointed out (beat me this time ), it also means that people with capped download limits don't have to download the whole game.

[Barside]

I trust that everyone who has indicated they have breached the EULA will be banned from the forum, if SI are going to rightly take a strong stance on the issue of piracy they might aswell start staright away.

[Dune297]

Yes because 19,853 is a massive amount of sales isnt it

Did I say it was? That is just the people using Steam with FM11 right now if you looked. Hundreds of thousands of copies have been sold on Steam, and that is a massive amount of sales.

[NCFCRossky]

If you game on the PC you better get use to STEAM. It is fast becoming a very popular piece of software that developers/publishers are using. Ive got it installed and have never had any problems with it. The amount of PC games in stores on the high street are also at there lowest ever, so this makes perfect sence for SI. Bring on 21st October I say!

[Wakers]

I trust that everyone who has indicated they have breached the EULA will be banned from the forum, if SI are going to rightly take a strong stance on the issue of piracy they might aswell start staright away.

I find it a bit harsh if they start banning people for sharing copies between family. Who hasn't done that with a game before?

[Bertie BG]

No overreaction here and no hysterics. I just don't want Steam on my computer. I've installed it before, didn't like it and have never installed it since. In this day and age, it is nice to have a choice to be honest. I don't like having to pay my hard earned money for a game then be told I have to install a piece of Software I don't want, to be able to play it.

I've bought every single game this company has produced and even bought extra copies when i've been stupid enough to lose a copy. Piracy?

You've just lost a customer.

The reason we didn't go Steam only in previous years is because we didn't think it was good enough at the time. It's improved though, a lot, and we do think it's good enough now so I really would encourage giving it another go (perhaps install FM11 through it for a week or two?) before you decide. If you don't like it, uninstall it - no harm done.

[jacox]

What kindof phone do you have?

EDIT: That looks off-topic, you can connect some phones to your PC/Laptop and there-by connect the PC/Laptop to the internet.. meaning you can get steam and spend 5 mins activating it then set it to offline mode.

I have a galaxy s2, and yes i can tether the phone and use the internet connection but as I live in a rural area i have a shocking data connection also, but thanks for the advice (Y)

[Hexhamlad]

Dear Si/Sega,

As a long standing customer I feel the need to make you aware of my stance on this. I will not under any circumstances be forced into downloading steam and activating the game via that method. Every year I have bought the game from a local store and I feel that is sufficient. Whilst I understand you may want to protect your game against piracy you are in fact punishing loyal customers.

Is there no middle ground here?

Why can't you have a standalone SI activation system? well for me the answer is staring everyone in the face. It would take too much effort to implement and you would rather assume customers will be ushered into using steam like brainless sheep. I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels insulted by this move. An outrage is about the only description I can offer at this stage. There are several methods SI could look at but this is the easy option.

As I have already mentioned, I will not be forced into using steam.



To make this as clear as possible I will not be purchasing the game this year if there is a requirement to install steam. It's really that simple. I have only read the opening post but I know that many other people feel the same. How do I know this? well the above points have been mentioned several times by many users during previous releases. This is yet another example of SI saying they will take the customers views on board but actually doing whatever they want.

Today is a new low for SI. Every customer who doesn't use steam currently should boycott the game in my opinion. SI and Sega have made it obvious that the only thing they actually care about is money. So the only way a customer can communicate a view is by defining SI and Sega a much valued sale. A decrease in sales compared to 2011 would be absolutely amazing.

[MAINBOY]

So we have to play the game through steam. Great!.

[STANNY08]

you cant use an Ipod unless you have the internet and use Itunes, i dont see anyone kicking up a huge fuss over that.

But there is a million other great mp3 playing alternatives to the ipod, there really isnt an alternative to FM!

[Tommy_Styles]

Yup, once a game is activated on steam you can take play the game without a CD in the drive.

Another positive for the use of steam which many dont know about.

Thanks Siven, I do know about it but simply LOVE playing with the CD stuck in my laptop =D

[SmurfDude]

Steam is awesome, I use it every day. I like having all my games on there, it's convenient and makes updating straight forward as there's no need to faff about downloading from external sites and running installers

[Wakers]

Don't you remember what happened when they used horrible DRM and had an activiation code?

1) the DRM servers were attacked by anti-DRM protestors and less savoury types.

2) They used the worst activation code font in the history of activation codes that no one could read.

[Lazaru5]

I'll just wait for the FM12 version of this thread cos it's the only way I'll buy the game now

[Koki]

My questions might have been overlooked.. so I try by posting them again. Maybe you can shed some light on these ones. Sorry for being so impatient (take it as a sign I'm really interested in the game).

* Will this Steam-measure affect users in 'illegal' countries, e.g. Germany? I'm not even allowed to view FM-videos(!) on Steam because I'm based in Germany... but if I get a DVD copy of FM12, it would work, right?

* Also: Will the game get updated via Steam or will there be the usual boxed patches? Might be another issue.. I know I can turn out auto updates, but would I be stuck with v12.0.0 then?

[RorysRocketThrow]

Bertie,

I appreciate your stance and i'm not going to get into a discussion about it. I respect your opinion as an employee of SI and a fellow gamer. It's really simple. I don't want a third party piece of software on my computer, especially not Steam, and If I have to install it to play a particular game I will simply not buy the game.

I genuinely wish SI all the best for the future if they are going down this road.

[The Unknown Imposter]

Software like STEAM is the future, better get on the digital wagon.

Ive used STEAM for some years now, and I havent received bad/intrusive mails, phonecalls, knocks on my door late at night, nor suspicious PC behaviour.

STEAM is not the work of Satan, so please try it out eh?

Have to agree. I'm sure many idealists on here lament the entertainment industry for failing to adapt to new trends and technology; those record companies and movie studios that have battled and continune to battle the download phenomena. The games industry has actually adapted technology in a positive way and we're fighting it!

If you want to play music or watch a movie on your computer you need a player - and I'm sure a lot of people don't use the default players that come with their OS. And sometimes you need to download extra codecs to play these files. Downloading Steam to play a game is not that much different. I never wanted to do it as I liked the physical disc. But when I moved to the US the easiest way to get the game was to go digital. And it works fine. I click 'start in offline mode' when I start the game and that's it. I'm not aware of Steam even running on my computer.

- 9lives

[PES-Dude]

Shopto.net are selling the game as a digital download, does this mean that I will get the code to redeem via Steam and download it through Steam?

[deltablue]

We had to activate 09 on steam, and I imagine it was quick and smooth for a majority of people, so I'm amazed that there's such a fuss now. I'm normally an 'if the old ways work fine, why try the new way?' guy, shopping in person with cash and things like that, which is why I didn't use steam when I didn't need to for 10 and 11 (which was good for the latter as I dodged the bullet of the 11.2 patch messing up games with Poland loaded, as I could choose to install when the fix was out and not be stuck with the earlier version), but aside from '0' and 'O' looking the same on the activation code, I guessed which was which correctly first time and despite inevitably being a little unsure how it would go, using steam for the first time, it was simple. Recently used it again for the first time since, for Civ V, and having it 'offline' nearly all the time, it's been just as simple a process to activate and that's it, it's hardly been a burden to carry on my laptop even with such infrequent usage, and while there may be problems for some people, which is unfortunate, actually activating online is hardly a massive hurdle to fear.

[Herter]

I'll just wait for the FM12 version of this thread cos it's the only way I'll buy the game now

You'll probably have to wait forever..

[cerud]

So...after reading 4 pages of posts, I've come to realize that some people like Steam and some do not. Nothing I didn't know before. Any method, any application for the reason of security and intellectual rights protection will have its supporters and detractors. However, after the first...maybe 5 posts, nothing really new has been posted. Having this post around and stickied is good for people to learn about new measures, but all this has become is Wakers called people names simply because people do not agree with his opinion. I'm sure that was not the point of the OP. Time to lock this. Provide the info and let people rant somewhere else.

[jpwild]

It's true. Whether you believe me or not that's your prerogative, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's the honest truth.

As was mentioned in the opening post. If a quarter of people who pirate the game instead buy it then our sales would over double. Piracy is a huge problem for Football Manager.

Can you provide us with the report into those results? Very interested into how that conclusion came to be. I am not saying it's true or not true, but I always like to see facts rather than rely on one person's statement.

[Herter]

No overreaction here and no hysterics. I just don't want Steam on my computer. I've installed it before, didn't like it and have never installed it since. In this day and age, it is nice to have a choice to be honest. I don't like having to pay my hard earned money for a game then be told I have to install a piece of Software I don't want, to be able to play it.

I've bought every single game this company has produced and even bought extra copies when i've been stupid enough to lose a copy. Piracy?

You've just lost a customer.

I think they'll survive the loss of you

[SLO_Fila]

I've never read any solid evidence to suggest that piracy actually increase sales of anything. At best any evidence behind it that I've seen has always been circumstantial. It's certainly not the case with Football Manager though.

More people play the game pirated each year than do legally. To say that piracy helps sales when that's the case is just rubbish. Piracy is illegal and it threatens the continuation of any creative product including FM.

FM selling more games is to the benefit of those who buy the game legally as well. The more we sell, the more is invested into the studio and the more progress we can make with each iteration.

Well it seems that the anime definitely sells better because of piracy.

The Japanese say so http://www.rieti.go.jp/en/publicatio.../11010021.html

If you learn japanese you can check out their elaborate .pdf file on the matter.

[Bertie BG]

Shopto.net are selling the game as a digital download, does this mean that I will get the code to redeem via Steam and download it through Steam?

I'm not sure of the specifics with Shopto but I'd imagine you'd be able to download it through them but still need to activate the game through Steam in order to play it.

[SmurfDude]

Bertie,

I appreciate your stance and i'm not going to get into a discussion about it. I respect your opinion as an employee of SI and a fellow gamer. It's really simple. I don't want a third party piece of software on my computer, especially not Steam, and If I have to install it to play a particular game I will simply not buy the game.

I genuinely wish SI all the best for the future if they are going down this road.

Is there a reason you are so against downloading a small program, which uses very little resources, other than out of pig headed stubbornness to change?

[dirtyscarab]

Well here was me thinking that this forum was full of level headed people. Evidently not.
I've just read every single post above and it leaves me disheartened quite frankly. As Neil said, if you're alienated by a small piece of software (which actually helps you rather than hinders you) then don't buy the game.

I'll buy two copies to make up for some of the idiots on here.

[Barside]

Don't you remember what happened when they used horrible DRM and had an activiation code?

1) the DRM servers were attacked by anti-DRM protestors and less savoury types. - I was one of the lucky ones who activated within 5 minutes on day 2

2) They used the worst activation code font in the history of activation codes that no one could read. - Not our fault, SI should have proof checked before mass publication

+10 characters

[Barside]

My questions might have been overlooked.. so I try by posting them again. Maybe you can shed some light on these ones. Sorry for being so impatient (take it as a sign I'm really interested in the game).

I'm afraid you're stuffed but that's thanks to EA & the rather agressive German laws on the licencing issue.

[moon_goat]

Apologies about claiming steam would only allow 1 game open at once, but in the past i've tried with a few games only been told to close one of them first, so it must have changed, or only be with games on the same engine.

Either way though, to claim the move is to prevent piracy will be pretty ridiculous when on day 1 people are playing it for free, and if SI allow you to pre-load the game then most likely earlier than release

Upsetting

[champion067]

well fookin thank you very much. hope there will be less bugs then if you're going down that road.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Dont you think SI and Sega have done lots of calculations before making this decision? - Many FM'ers already use Steam and perhaps many pirates will actually buy the game now and then the loss of those who do not wish to use steam may be ignored..

IMO this is a smart decision of SI to at least try it out to see if it helps. They have to do something and IMO Steam is a good option to choose. If you disapprove, then dont buy FM2012..

You have clearly forgotten the 2008 release day debacle. Your line about not buying the game is pathetic by the way (only 1 step removed from "go play FIFA", "wens da demo owt" or "wot taktix werks") however I would like to say that I will buy the game on day one, I am looking forward to it that much however I am dreading the activation (due to the 2008 experience).

Maybe SI can assure us that the game will be labelled with a very large clear warning that internet access is required to play the game, rather than as a footnote in small print. Maybe SI can confirm 100% that the 2008 issues (we all know what caused them) cannot happen this year. Of course SI cannot do the latter because by involving activation like this they are leaving the back door unlocked to the kind of "Terrorists" that attacked the servers back then.

As for Steam, unless I completely Uninstall I get it popping up lots when I dont want it to (may be in part a Vista issue but Steam is the source of the problem, so here I am having to install 3rd party software I already cannot wait to completely remove again.

Yesterday I felt like an excited customer looking forward to 21/10/11, now I feel like a mug punter, to be honest.

[Ackter]

Right, if you're just going to start calling each other names I'm going to be deleting the posts.

Please try and remain civil, we can discuss this issue without resorting to petty name-calling.

[MAINBOY]

This could be as bad as FM 09 or worse.

[João Miguel Pereira]

So what happens if many of us decide not to buy the game this year? Will that help your piracy problems too? We need to take a stand here guys.

[Dune297]

So what happens if many of us decide not to buy the game this year? Will that help your piracy problems too? We need to take a stand here guys.

Enjoy taking your petty little stand against a non-issue. Keep making up your little Steam stories, when the truth is it works fine for 30 million users.

[santy001]

My only question is are you guys at SI aware just how feeble a protection Steam is? As illustrated here it clearly earns the ire of some of your customers, but the game will still be pirated through false steam platforms. If it is genuinely the case that more people pirate it than buy it, this is even less effective than a DRM system. On various gaming communities links will be up and guides will be up to provide people with the workaround. To give an example Brink had no proper offline gameplay, but was still hugely pirated for online play a mate of mine making fun of me for bothering to get it on the 360 when it was so easily available on PC for free. Basically all it required was a download and 2 or 3 dll files dropping into the steam installation and you could connect online.

DLL files at best will take a minute to download, it is no deterrent. It doesn't affect me, I assume I'll be able to activate my copy when it gets sent out but it seems like someone has been told something that clearly isn't true. I'd never condone or supporting pirating games but at the same time I won't pretend I'm oblivious to it happening, when involved heavily in discussing gaming, computer parts and overclocking there will always be the flipside where people promote the piracy and make it as easily accessible on a 'How to play X, Y, Z' as a 'How to overclock X, Y, Z" guide. If money (especially a sizable amount) is being spent on this then its largely money being thrown away, as I said before it will at best delay the torrents by a couple of days.

If anything like last year people will be able to pirate it a full week before it goes on sale.

[shirajzl]

SEGA will regret this decision, I'm afraid. I honestly think they will turn many of their regular costumers to piracy. Instead of tackling the problem, they'll make it bigger. A very, very bad decision.

[dirtyscarab]

On a related note: Will there be Steam Cloud integration this year? I suspect not but I would absolutely love that.

[7Bestie7]

This could be as bad as FM 09 or worse.

Or, shock and horror, maybe not that bad.

[minneapolisjon]

Stupid question:

To put it bluntly, is STEAM offline mode stable?

Will it allow people to literally install Steam, download the game, switch it to offline mode as soon as I am done with the download, and never effect my game or my computer? (minus the account being hacked, etc.)

If someone on here from SI or SEGA says yes, then I'll buy it.

If not, then I won't.

Simple as that.

Cheers,
MinneapolisJon
Staff Writer, www.fm-view.com

[itdoesntmatterwhatthissays]

When was the day I stopped using steam? When I got a pc like console and only bothered turning that on for Fm20xx.
Half-Life was on my 360, so is Portal...you get the picture.

it was great to just have an average pc to run FM because I have used steam from the start and while a good client based software it is clunky, resource hungry and blocks the user from that fm immersion.

I'm not even sure I'll bother buying FM2012 at all, I have been with you for 15 years (15 profitable years for you) and this attitude toward customers shows the level of greed you have is placed higher than customer immersion and satisfaction; Im sure youll see 'small' profits again as you sit on the top of the game chart but its unlikely that you'll be getting my money, I'll be saving it for better offerings such as Skyrim, Rage, Barman and Battlefield.

Thanks for choosing US and not your wallets.

[tom_numbers]

My question is will you be making the game cheaper on steam?, say £19.99 that would be a fair price IMO.

Thank you

As far as I'm aware, retailers choose their own prices.

I have no actual issue with Steam, but I would like to thank the number of SI and Sega representatives in this thread who have tried to answer the questions thrown at them.

[milnerpoint]

SEGA will regret this decision, I'm afraid. I honestly think they will turn many of their regular costumers to piracy. Instead of tackling the problem, they'll make it bigger. A very, very bad decision.

does that mean you would rather steal the game than use steam? If most of the "loyal" customer of FM think the same way it paints a very bad picture of society.

[juvito2k]

The cost of the game via digital steam in theory should be cheaper, but we pay the same as boxed version?
49€ you could put the game at an affordable price for a digital download!!!

[arsenal_2111]

Not impressed.

[milnerpoint]

it was great to just have an average pc to run FM because I have used steam from the start and while a good client based software it is clunky, resource hungry and blocks the user from that fm immersion.

steam right now on my machine without FM running is using up 107,468kb, resource hungry, please.

[Dune297]

When was the day I stopped using steam? When I got a pc like console and only bothered turning that on for Fm20xx.
Half-Life was on my 360, so is Portal...you get the picture.

it was great to just have an average pc to run FM because I have used steam from the start and while a good client based software it is clunky, resource hungry and blocks the user from that fm immersion.

I'm not even sure I'll bother buying FM2012 at all, I have been with you for 15 years (15 profitable years for you) and this attitude toward customers shows the level of greed you have is placed higher than customer immersion and satisfaction; Im sure youll see 'small' profits again as you sit on the top of the game chart but its unlikely that you'll be getting my money, I'll be saving it for better offerings such as Skyrim, Rage, Barman and Battlefield.

Thanks for choosing US and not your wallets.

Skyrim and Rage are both steamworks like FM12.

[moon_goat]

Stupid question:

To put it bluntly, is STEAM offline mode stable?

Will it allow people to literally install Steam, download the game, switch it to offline mode as soon as I am done with the download, and never effect my game or my computer? (minus the account being hacked, etc.)

If someone on here from SI or SEGA says yes, then I'll buy it.

If not, then I won't.

Simple as that.

Cheers,
MinneapolisJon
Staff Writer, www.fm-view.com

Yes, until (for a few different reasons, not really sure why) steam suddenly decides it needs to be online for you to log into it. It's not a massive problem if you have an internet connection, and steam isn't an intrusive program, it's actually good.

The one thing it isn't however, is piracy-proof. Honestly can't even comprehend why it's being put forward as some sort of saviour, when the only games which are more difficult to crack are those which need additional ONLINE anti piracy/cheating methods (such as connecting to the individual companies servers to verify things) once you get through the steam login

I don't even know why i'm going on, they won't change back because they won't even be aware of the number of people pirating it

[The Moon]

Seems a bit disingenuous to say it's a matter of piracy where in reality it's more of an issue of trying to sell more copies. How is making the game harder to buy meant to draw more people to it? I assume the aim is to get people to buy the game rather than to make less people pirate it. Or at least it should be.

[gmilitao]

A question: STEAM will give us extra beneficts or features when we buy the game?????


I don't like the decision, but, i understand the point of view. It's a no-piracy measure. But a lot of people in the world play CS via Steam and don't have the original game. It's not a big deal go for that. All the games in the world, programs, etc, could be cracked. The companies can't accepted this, but this is the reality.
For me a good way for go against that is expanded the worldwide sales of the FM Boxed version. In Brazil we haven't this. Why?

[Neil Brock]

The cost of the game via digital steam in theory should be cheaper, but we pay the same as boxed version?
49€ you could put the game at an affordable price for a digital download!!!

Someone has already posted a link in this thread where the game can be ordered for less than £20!

[elazulreal]

Steam is on in my PC also and it uses only 15.256 KB.

I really could not understand the people who will stop buying Football Manager just because they hate Steam. Is it really easy for you to give up FM?

[stevetranmere]

Although I am not a regular user of these forums, I do play the FM series religiously. However, I have since cancelled my pre order of fm 2012. I have read your post and this thread and have made a number of replies in bold below.

Sorry you have just lost another customer.

Hi all
I know this an emotive subject but there are a few claims being made on posts here that need clarifying a little:

Firstly the reason for asking genuine consumers to activate via Steam is purely combating piracy. No money changes hands between SEGA and Steam. People saying it will not combat piracy are not in possession of the facts that those who have made the decision have. We all know that unfortunately it wont cure piracy, but it will, we believe massively reduce it this year.

Can we see the facts that led to this decision please? If not will I be able to obtain them with a freedom of information request? Also after the release of the game will you update the forum as to whether steam has “massively reduced” pirate copies?

This is not done to pave the way for digital only releases. My personal belief is that day is coming to gaming as it is to music and watching movies at home, but it's not a factor here, hence needing to activate physical copies of the game.

If I have purchased a “physical” copy of the game, why should I have to activate it? If I have spent my hard earned cash on a physical copy, there should be a way to build in anti piracy measures in this day and age of technological advances without the need to install a completely useless 3rd party piece of software that I don’t want or need or use.

People have always legally needed to buy one copy of the game per person, although we know it's often not the case. If you don't play at the same time then more than one person can play FM with different saves, the same as always. Someone mentioned FIFA, if you buy a copy of a console game you can play it at the same time on the same machine, different times on the same machine but you can't play it at the same time on different machines, same as FM this year.

Fair enough. That’s the law, there is only me who plays the game in my household.

Some have doubted the intention of the move being antipiracy and wanting to see stat and asked for honesty. We can't and won't post data of sales, or piracy. However, I will be honest and say if we could remove piracy from FM and a small proportion of those pirates moved to buying the game it would be the equivalent of adding 1 2 or maybe 3 European countries worth of sales to the game easily.

Why can’t you post data of sales, or piracy? I bet if I submitted a FOI request I could. (By the way saying you could add “1, 2 or maybe 3 European countries worth of sales tells me that you believe pirates to be in the region of 15887425.88 extra sales. With 15887425.88 being the average population of a European country.)


People have said that this is an inconvenience to real consumers. It is. Everyone involved wishes it wasn't. What we're asking is for people to see past the inconvenience of one off activation. A billion things in life require you to prove who you are, or show proof of age or ownership, it's not realistic to suggest that people trust you and everyone on everything because it inconveniences the law abiding citizen, that's not how moving from country to country, or owning a car, or buying alcohol, or telephone banking or loads of stuff works. Unfortunately, because so many people steal FM each year it's not really an option for us to expect that FM is just trusted either. We've tried to make the system as simple and as painless as possible, I hope you try it and give it a chance.

I don’t mind activating my game. But I don’t want to be forced to keep a piece of software running on my pc that I will never use, don’t want or need. The option should be there to un-install steam from the pc after activation.

I have tried STEAM before, and like many things, after one VERY bad experience I will not be going back. I installed steam on FM2010. It crashed my system, made it run slow, and then my system refused to start up. After solving this issue steam then failed to update my game, and corrupted many of my saved games. I received no help from Steam, Sega had no idea what to do, and ultimately I had to take the system to be repaired, TWICE! So you will understand that I will not go back to it! The same as I wouldn’t go back to a restaurant with bad food. Or the same as I wouldn’t go back to a garage that had no idea how to fix an issue with my car!

If you haven’t tried STEAM for a few years, it's worth a look. We didn't chose this course of action for FM10 or FM11, but we are now and it's because we think Steam has improved, and internet connection rates are at a level where it's realistic to assume FM consumers, in the main have an internet connection. Some people won't, but it is still possible to activate through Steam, switch on offline mode and not connect again after making one trip to somewhere with Wi-Fi or a connection. It's not perfect, but we think the vast majority of people will be able to connect to the internet.

Correct, the “Vast Majority” of people will be able to connect to the internet. 82.5% of the population can connect to the internet, However only 61% of homes in the in the UK have internet access. The “One trip to somewhere with WI-FI or a connection” you have under-estimated. Although local libraries etc have an internet connection, in my experience you are not allowed to use clients like steam on the systems in these establishments.

No, the people in charge of this system aren't the people who were in charge of the Sega site security

Thank god.

If you get a chance to take up the £5 bet that a cracked working version of the game is available before it's activated on Steam, take it.

I guarantee the game will be pirated, you will never stop it. The same happens in the music industry and the film industry.

And for everyone that does purchase the game, will you, (SI, Sega, Steam and other retailers) offer a refund to anyone that does “try steam now it’s worth a look”

[itdoesntmatterwhatthissays]

Skyrim and Rage are both steamworks like FM12.

look above I have a 360 and dropped Steam (apart from some occasional CS gaming) a while back.

[cerud]

Stupid question:

To put it bluntly, is STEAM offline mode stable?

Will it allow people to literally install Steam, download the game, switch it to offline mode as soon as I am done with the download, and never effect my game or my computer? (minus the account being hacked, etc.)

If someone on here from SI or SEGA says yes, then I'll buy it.

If not, then I won't.

Simple as that.

Cheers,
MinneapolisJon
Staff Writer, www.fm-view.com

I've run FM11 with Steam on offline mode, no internet connection at all hooked up, with no problems.

[manyBuddhas]

I totally understand your need for copy protection and I think your solution may be a decent compromise. Steam has malfunctioned for me in the past, but I will still buy Football Manager 2012 because it's a great game. Having to activate once through Steam online and then being able to play offline is better than having to always be connected. That's too intrusive, takes up computer resources, and Steam becomes another layer of complexity between the game and the operating system.

I know other games have ways of activating online without Steam. How does activation work with your distant relation, Out of the Park Baseball? That game is downloadable and requires online activation, but no Steam or other third-party. I'm assuming Marcus Heinsohn doesn't have big bucks to implement something too complex either. (He had a brief agreement with Sega, I think.)

And of course people are right about the piracy. Steam games are routinely cracked and made to run no-Steam and no-CD. It's a delicate situation for developers! I think the product will out, though, and, unless something blows up big time, all but the diehard Steam-haters will eventually hold their noses and get on board.

[Barside]

Yes, until (for a few different reasons, not really sure why) steam suddenly decides it needs to be online for you to log into it. It's not a massive problem if you have an internet connection

If a programme is in offline mode it should stay offline until the user tells it otherwise, this was one of the key reason why I uninstalled it after SI trumpeted it as the best think since sliced bread when they first linked up.

[dirtyscarab]

*Opens Steam*.... *Opens task manager*

a) Steam ISN'T resource hungry. 13,004kb on my machine.
b) 5 years using it and I've never been hacked.
c) Their customer service is actually quite good.
d) The game will auto patch
e) Achievements (Take 'em or leave 'em)

What, please tell me is wrong with any of the above? I don't get it.

[luton]

I dont see what the issue is with steam, ive used steam since FM09 and i have had no problems at all. After reading through all the replies i take it that many people will not be purchasing the latest copy of FM. Very sad! A lot of time has been spent buy SI developing the game what i thought we all love, unfortunatly due to piracy this is the only option or would you prefer that the game gets leaked to pirates and SI lose money which could go to improving FM every year. I for one will be buying the game and i will carry on buying this game!!

[FISHER HATES GRAVEL]

Can SI explain what the situation would be for FM gamers in the same household then?

Sounds to me like because of idiots stealing the game me and my brother have to buy the game twice despite living in the same household? Or is there an option for this problem? I don't see why we should have to buy the game twice, its extremely harsh. We don't buy two Fifa games for example. Last couple of years I have acitivated through Steam and he has used the disc so I'm guessing now he will need a Steam account and his own activation code which means buying two games? Not very fair is it?

In the past SI have made it clear that they consider two relatives in the same household sharing a copy illegal/piracy. IMO this is absurd, especially when you realise its the same company that delibrately got rid of CD checks in CM 97/98 to encourage lending the game to your mates, and obviously long-term make more fans of the series.

I'm someone that buys and plays FM through Steam, and genuinely think its an excellent service. But I have two issues with this decision and how it's been expressed:
1- I'm sure a great number of people worldwide pirate FM (though it needs to be made clear that an illegal download does not equal a lost sale, as much as publishers, record labels etc insist otherwise) and that anti-piracy measures are A reason why you've decided to go Steam exclusive. But '100%' 'the only reason'? you're telling me that the other pet peeve of publshers, and one that services like Steam are far more effective at combating than piracy, had nothing to do with it? I'm talking, of course, about the second hand retail market - hated by publishers because they get no cut of the resale. Are SEGA and SI really claiming that this perceived problem had absolutely nothing to do with this decision?

2- As i've said, I'm a great fan of Steam, have a few dozen games on there. But I'm lucky in that i've only ever had to make use of the Offline Mode a couple of times when away from home with sporadic internet access. This is lucky because Offline Mode is notoriously awful. For years it's become a joke - one grounded in absolute truth - that every time the steam software itself is updated the patch notes contain 'fixed the way Offline Mode works' or words to that effect. This has been the case for, what, 6 or 7 years now? Thing is, Offline Mode only works remotely well if you've got no current internet connection at all and you know this in advance. You're playing FM12, middle of the FA Cup final, when someone or a freak storm or w/ever cuts a cable at the end of your street. You lose your internet connection. Steam crashes immediately and takes FM12 with it. "No problem" you think "that nice man from SEGA explained that we can put Steam in offline mode and still play". But you've got no internet connection. You don't have it remember your password, because then your brother might play on your account, and SI define this as 'illegal' through their EULA (unenforcable ). So you can't access 'offline mode' at all, until your internet is no longer offline. Might be 5 minutes, might be a fortnight. Your internet connection going down has now cut you off from any and all single-player Steam games you own. This 'solution' needs much more official explanation from SI and/or SEGA, than simply 'there's an offline mode'... because the consensus is it's not a very good one, not up to the general standard of Steam as a PC gaming platform anyway.

[Chris Ritchie]

It's true. Whether you believe me or not that's your prerogative, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's the honest truth.

As was mentioned in the opening post. If a quarter of people who pirate the game instead buy it then our sales would over double. Piracy is a huge problem for Football Manager.

More people "play the game pirated", or more people download it? Because they're very, very different things. Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion that the pirates are actually potential customers?

[Arkim]

My concerns have been covered thoroughly throughout the thread.

I also dislike the idea of having to run a 3rd party application to play a game (which is the only game I play, like many people on this forum), it's that simple. Of course I understand the reasoning behind partnering up with Steam, however I wish we had a choice of how we activate the game we buy. Remember, in this sort of market, you want to target as massive an audience as possible, and not limit who can buy the game. I guess you already know that, though.

As many have said, you cannot close Steam while running FM as that would close FM. I wish they would of gone with the CD Key method, or some other way of activation in addition to Steam. It seems very unfair to those who have genuine copies. I know I sound like a broken record, but I hope that it's understood as many seem to think that because one does not want to use a 3rd party application to play the game, they must be "hating" or "noobs", "crackers" or what have you.

I hope SI would take all of our concerns on board and come up with an alternative way in addition to the current activation method for this years FM release. It would sure make a lot of people happy. I don't see how difficult it could be considering a few years ago there were a couple of ways of activating.

[HHUK]

I really hope SI don't think Steam stops piracy, time and time again countless early pirate releases come from Steam pre-loads (when the full game is pre-loaded). Look at the number of Steam only games that have been pirated before or on release date, it's not hard and it won't stop anything.

With SI's market it's inevitable that piracy will happen, the only sensible thing to do is to offer discount pricing for high-piracy countries in local stores.

Even consider an FM-lite where if for example, it were released in Turkey, they could pay £10 and only play in the Turkish league (background leagues exist, it just stops you getting employed elsewhere), unlocking more leagues would cost £3 each or an extra £10 for all of them. I imagine most users would add English, Spanish and Italian leagues quite quickly, bringing the price up to £19 overall. Not bad when websites are offering it for £20.

Microtransactions have proven that in the bigger picture, you can charge less (or nothing) for the initial product and still make large amounts of money on extras.

I am a huge Steam fan, I buy at least 80% of my games on there, the only ones I don't buy on there are smaller indie games on Desura or Impulse and a few Xbox 360 games. Just because it's a great platform it doesn't mean it is the solution, specific places with high piracy need targetting with a cost effective solution for both sides.

[jack95]

I genuinely don't get the furore over this. Yes, it's debatable whether it will in any way prevent piracy, and yes it's going to be a pain to install Steam. But I'd imagine that downloading steam, putting in the activation key and then setting it to offline mode will take about an hour maximum, and then you've got what should be a terrific game for the rest of the year. Would I rather I could just install it and get going? Of course. But I'm not going to boycott the game because SI have mildly inconvenienced us in an attempt to crackdown on piracy, when they spend the year trying to improve the game for a largely thankless audience.

[treble_yell_:-)]

We appreciate that the vast majority of people reading this post on the forums are genuine consumers of the game, and that having to activate is not as simple as putting the game in the drive and playing. However we hope that, as a fan of the game, you feel that having to do a one-time activation is worth it to try to prevent others playing the game for free and stealing what you purchase with no punishment, and with no contribution toward the future of Football Manager and it's development.

I buy the game, and have always activated through Steam anyway, but don't try to ******** your consumers. A quick look at any form of p2p / usenet etc shows that games requiring Steam activation to play are cracked and made available just like those that do not require the consumer to install a 3rd party application.

It's your game and you are free to add any sort of DRM you choose, but I'm pretty sure that AGAIN the only people this information is relevant to is those who have legally purchased the game. The pirates won't be activating via Steam, won't be contributing to your development budget and certainly won't all be rushing out to buy it because you made Steam mandatory.

[bayern8176]

I have used steam for yonks and never had a problem with it i think it is spot on.
at the end of the day if you have not got internet connection then get it i mean for christ sake it is 2011 not 1901 and it is not like it is mega expensive to have internet.
the only thing that is bothering me is i have always got the game 2 days before release but know i am going to have to wait until i can activate it but i am not really bothered as long as the game works.
the funny thing is all this will be forgotten when the demo comes out as then everyone will be moaning about the problems with the game itself.
at the end of the day if you have no internet or you do not like steam then it is pretty simple DO NOT BUY THE GAME.

[jakobx]

Edit: I would personally make the game a GFWL game. Let people have Xbox Live achievements - just this will get people to buy it. It will also open the game up to different markets. Yes, GFWL games can be played even without a cd key - but this is same with any other game.

Hell no. Is even worse than steam. I always leave FM running and GFWL is so ******** that it doesnt support two devices connected at the same time so i wouldnt be able to play on xbox at the same time. It doesnt matter anyway now since i have a rule of not buying any DRM infested game for more than 5 eur. Thats the reason why i dont own FM09.

[SCIAG]

I despise Steam, I really do.

[FISHER HATES GRAVEL]

I hope SI and Sega are noting the number of concerned posters here with 10 or less posts - including some that have obviously registered just to post here. That's how big an issue it is to a lot of people and i'd hope they'd stop cherry picking which points to address and which ones to handwave away (offline mode being crap etc). There's a 'have your cake and eat it' mentality where they often react to mass criticism with "oh, you're just the die hards, most people don't play the game like you do" - but then not reacting when people are so put off by a decision that they;re signing up just to say so.

[Chris Ritchie]

I despise Steam, I really do.

High five, brother o/

[sionic]

I've been playing fm and cm since cm2 - I buy every version with great enthusiasm. Unfortunately - Steam is a massive turn off for me, and for that reason I won't be buying fm2012. #sortitoutsi!!

[Abramovic]

Id gladly pay €5 more not to use Steam, than install it. Steam offers the game for €49.99 which is utterly ridiculous in the first place. Production costs are surely cheaper since you dont have to put it on a disk.

[dafuge]

I'll be honest, I'm quite gutted by this news. I've tried Steam, but since FM is the only game I play on my PC I don't really see any benefit to it.

I also find the achievements quite annoying, so at the very least I'd like to be able to turn them off.

It isn't anough to turn me away from FM from good though, if it is necessary then I'll just have to jump through the extra hoop to play my game.

[Rhazmuz]

Its funny to see how so many random users know more about the game, and how its used/misused globally, than the people who created the game, and have by far the best position to keep track of these aspects.

[Ackter]

I'll be honest, I'm quite gutted by this news. I've tried Steam, but since FM is the only game I play on my PC I don't really see any benefit to it.

I also find the achievements quite annoying, so at the very least I'd like to be able to turn them off.

It isn't anough to turn me away from FM from good though, if it is necessary then I'll just have to jump through the extra hoop to play my game.

Playing in offline mode turns off the achievements.

[bayern8176]

So let me get this straight - because people do not like steam then they are not going to buy the game.
It is like saying i hate pentium processors and i will only buy amd processors - so what happens if amd ever went out of business will you never ever upgrade your computer again - i really do not think so.

[Chris Ritchie]

Its funny to see how so many random users know more about the game, and how its used/misused globally, than the people who created the game, and have by far the best position to keep track of these aspects.

Those who created the game might be more inclined to have an emotional attachment and be more enraged by piracy than they really need to be. Nobody disputes that the game is probably downloaded several more times than it's bought or that people are out there playing for free - but whether genuine customers should be forced to jump through hoops because of this is another matter entirely.

[Chris Ritchie]

So let me get this straight - because people do not like steam then they are not going to buy the game.
It is like saying i hate pentium processors and i will only buy amd processors - so what happens if amd ever went out of business will you never ever upgrade your computer again - i really do not think so.

But AMD haven't gone out of business? As long as there are other options available nobody should be forced to use a single one.

[dafuge]

Playing in offline mode turns off the achievements.

I've asked twice about that and no one told me that

Still not happy though

[Abramovic]

So let me get this straight - because people do not like steam then they are not going to buy the game.
It is like saying i hate pentium processors and i will only buy amd processors - so what happens if amd ever went out of business will you never ever upgrade your computer again - i really do not think so.

Do you know how do differentiate between hardware and software ?

Why do you need to use a 3rd party software for something you own( bought a cd).

[Rhazmuz]

Those who created the game might be more inclined to have an emotional attachment and be more enraged by piracy than they really need to be. Nobody disputes that the game is probably downloaded several more times than it's bought or that people are out there playing for free - but whether genuine customers should be forced to jump through hoops because of this is another matter entirely.

trust me, this is joint between SEGA/SI, and they will have carefully looked into this issue, and how this measure might affect current players who dont use STEAM. This is not just some high emotionally knee jerk reaction.. this is business.

[SCIAG]

I think I'm right in saying one can still digitially download the game and not have to use Steam?

I'm not keen on digital download- I've only ever digitally downloaded one album, which has cost me about £50, and that was because I didn't have a choice, so I'm willing to go to some hardship to get a physical copy- but frankly it's better than having to use Steam.

[Lazaru5]

trust me, this is joint between SEGA/SI, and they will have carefully looked into this issue, and how this measure might affect current players who dont use STEAM. This is not just some high emotionally knee jerk reaction.. this is business.

Yeah, BAD business, it's going to cost them in the long run.

[Chris Ritchie]

trust me, this is joint between SEGA/SI, and they will have carefully looked into this issue, and how this measure might affect current players who dont use STEAM. This is not just some high emotionally knee jerk reaction.. this is business.

Thanks for your insight. I certainly hadn't considered the idea that SI and Sega might have looked into this before going ahead with it.

The way that it will affect this customer (note: not "player") who doesn't use Steam is that he'll cease to be a customer.

[Barside]

So let me get this straight - because people do not like steam then they are not going to buy the game.
It is like saying i hate pentium processors and i will only buy amd processors - so what happens if amd ever went out of business will you never ever upgrade your computer again - i really do not think so.

That's an awful analogy, had SI decided to launch FM12 with activation via two alternative companies & one went bust the afternoon of release day then your example works, that's not how things are heppening though.

[milnerpoint]

I think I'm right in saying one can still digitially download the game and not have to use Steam?

I'm not keen on digital download- I've only ever digitally downloaded one album, which has cost me about £50, and that was because I didn't have a choice, so I'm willing to go to some hardship to get a physical copy- but frankly it's better than having to use Steam.

I dont think so, i think from the jist of it any version bought will have to be used through steam.

[Chris Ritchie]

I think I'm right in saying one can still digitially download the game and not have to use Steam?

That doesn't seem to be the case as far as I can tell. Otherwise I wouldn't really care.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I'll just wait for the FM12 version of this thread cos it's the only way I'll buy the game now

And it might be quicker in coming. (lives in hope)

[Rhazmuz]

Thanks for your insight. I certainly hadn't considered the idea that SI and Sega might have looked into this before going ahead with it.

The way that it will affect this customer (note: not "player") who doesn't use Steam is that he'll cease to be a customer.

From your reply it didnt seem like you had considered it tho..

I think your the one who cant see this from their point of view

[moon_goat]

I think I'm right in saying one can still digitially download the game and not have to use Steam?

I'm not keen on digital download- I've only ever digitally downloaded one album, which has cost me about £50, and that was because I didn't have a choice, so I'm willing to go to some hardship to get a physical copy- but frankly it's better than having to use Steam.

You can buy the game from other sites, but they will just give you a CD Key* which you activate in steam and add it to your games library.

[Barside]

I think I'm right in saying one can still digitially download the game and not have to use Steam?

I'm not keen on digital download- I've only ever digitally downloaded one album, which has cost me about £50, and that was because I didn't have a choice, so I'm willing to go to some hardship to get a physical copy- but frankly it's better than having to use Steam.

It looks like you would still need to activate the download via Steam.

[Bertie BG]

We've never once said that we believe Steam will stop piracy altogether just that it's believed that, of all the options available, it offers the best possible service for activation/DRM this year and that it will dramatically help reduce the number of people who pirate the game. Not stop it completely, of course - we're not naive, but that it would reduce piracy more than any alternative investigated would.

We also believe that with the improvements that Steam have made over recent months and years it offers a really good customer experience and only improves the experience of playing Football Manager for those that wish to play it in online mode. We wouldn't have done it otherwise. Those who don't wish to use Steam after activation only have to activate once and leave it in offline mode from then on. It doesn't use much resources and quietly sits there minding it's own business until you want to use it online.

We've also never said that we think a pirated game equals a lost sale. What we've said is IF 25% of those who pirated the game bought it, we believe our world wide sales figures would double. We're not saying that's going to happen (although it would be great if it did) all we're trying to do is highlight the problem that piracy brings to Football Manager and tell you the reasons why we're trying to battle it.

1 pirated game might not equal 1 lost sale, but surely you must accept that IF the game wasn't piratable (is that a word?) the game would sell more? Of course it would, that's just common sense.

More sales = more more money invested into SI as a studio which = a better game for the honest people who buy the game legally each year. That is our honest motivation behind all of this, if you can't believe or accept that then I'm sorry, there's not much more I can say.