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Thread: A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by dafuge View Post
    The child in me wants to mention that red button. Must.... resist....
    Didn't even notice it until your post and I looked back

  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by dafuge View Post
    The child in me wants to mention that red button. Must.... resist....
    Well spotted.

    S*L*U*T* (danish) = Quit/Finish

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    Apologies if this has already been mentioned/answered...

    How is it legal for Sega to insist that customers who have bought a copy of the game are required to install a specific software programme to be able to run the game? And for no other option to be given?

    As an example Microsoft were successfully taken to court over the fact that you had to install certain software on their operating systems. Would this not fall in to the same sphere?

    In a situation where a customer buys a copy of FM12 will they be informed in advance of purchase that they are required to install a third party software in order to play the game (not everyone will be aware of this before purchase)? If not, when they open the game and install to find this out, and are unable/unwilling to install steam, would they receive a refund from sega (as a shop would not issue a refund on an opened game)?

    Personally I have no opinion of steam either way as I have never used it. However, I would have prefered that I didnt have to do this (I am happy with the disc in the drive) as I have no need for steam for any other purpose. But I will more than likely install it so that I can play.

    To all the people saying steam is great and works perfectly for them, congratulations. But surely you realise that that's not the issue that some people have. This is about choice and preference. You choose steam but others should be free not to.

    Sega are trying to justify this by saying it's to combat piracy (which it more than likely won't) and many people don't buy that (I am undecided) - What I would like to know is if steam are paying Sega a fee for exclusivity of this game?

    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by RorysRocketThrow View Post
    Are you saying you are quite happy to see them (customers) walk away?
    Are you saying you are not happy to see them walk away but 'tough' because this is the decision we have made?
    I would also be interested to hear an answer to this.

    Did you not think that this decision would alienate part of your fanbase? If no, why not? If yes, why did you deem that acceptable?

    It seems kind of a like it or lump it situation.

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    I don't know why my latest post are deleted. I'm not go agains anyone and i'm not disrespected anything... why make this?????

    The question i made is why fm boxed version are not sold in Brazil in few days after uk release.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcooper View Post
    We're not going to go into the sales figures here or anywhere, hence the vagueness.
    Fair comment, does make it difficult & I'm darn sure frustrating when your hands are tied but & there is always a but I didn't mention sales figures, I was referring to the piracy statistics which I'm surprised cannot be released.

    As the crux of the arguemnet for going to Steam only activation is to combat the real menace of software piracy then surely from a public realtions standpoint coming out with firm figures can only be a positive. If SEGA published verified data showing that illegally held copies of FM2011 had been logged in use on 25,540,590 times in the last 12 months then you would add weight to your reasons for taking the decisions that you have, albeit I still hold that your timing has been very poor.

    Bet you're wishing you'd waiting until Monday to release this news.
    Last edited by Barside; 16-09-2011 at 21:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcooper View Post
    We're not going to go into the sales figures here or anywhere, hence the vagueness.
    So your asking us to trust you and download and play the game through the steam app, but you wont back up the reasons why you want this with cold hard facts and numbers?

    if people knew what you were up against then maybe there wouldnt be so many complaints and objections.

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    I have been reading this thread for well over an hour now, so have had plenty of time to consider this announcement.

    I was really looking forward to the release of FM12 this year, more so with these daily blogs that really made the game seem well worth purchasing.

    Then I see today's announcement and I am very disappointed. I am torn as to whether I will be buying the game this year. On one hand I really want the game but on the other I really do NOT want to have to install steam on my laptop. I had steam a few years ago and found it annoying, mainly due to how pointless it really is when all I play is FM. Like many others have said, their customer service is appalling and why would I want to run this program, in the background, eating resources and automatically downloading updates when all I wanted was to play FM? I don't even allow my anti virus to automatically download updates! Why would I want steam doing this?!

    Furthermore, as others have said, this, in my opinion, will have very little impact on piracy. The game will get hacked/cracked etc by people and within days and therefore surely defeats the objective of this exercise. I am baffled as to why such a risky move has been taken, which has clearly upset many of the loyal fanbase SI has spent years building up.

    Recently the playstation network was hacked and Sony spent a good couple of months fixing and implementing new safety features to improve security. All the while, PS Customers could NOT use the online features. Now, lets say, Steam, a much smaller, lesser company than Sony, were to get hacked and became unusable, either temporarily or permanantly. This is not inconceivable. Now that would render this game unusable. So I have paid £25-£30 for a disc that is now unusable for a game that no longer can be played. Can you explain your thinking behind implenting such measures that could potentially cause so many problems?

    Finally, in recent years, demo day and then release day have been riddled with problems about the game and or steam not working or certain problems occur. For example, the 3D match engine in 2009 didn't initially work with Intel graphics cards. Every year there are hundreds of threads on here with people unhappy with the fact the game isn't working. Throw steam into the equation and all of a sudden I forsee many more people having problems. Steam's customer service is at best, non existant, so how are SI going to manage dealing with so many unhappy customers on release date who have paid their hard earned cash and their game doesn't work ?

    I know you guys at SI/Sega will non doubt be trying to allay people fears, and have a lot of people writing messages on here, but I really think you need to post a thorough and detailed post, answering as many of the questions as possible, because as it stands, it is the first time I am considering not getting the game, and I have played since CM2. Today has been a very sad day for FM in my opinion.

    Kind regards

    BuryBlade

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    so are retailers going to tell everyone that comes up to their desk to ask if they have an internet connection before they buy the game so people who do not have internet connection dont get screwed when they take it home and try to install it and then see that they cant play it or return it, surely retailers are going to have to notify customers that fm has now gone this way, if i was running a game retail shop i know i would be telling people as they buy it so that they know instead of watching people get screwed.

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    Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr

    You have clearly forgotten the 2008 release day debacle. Your line about not buying the game is pathetic by the way (only 1 step removed from "go play FIFA", "wens da demo owt" or "wot taktix werks") however I would like to say that I will buy the game on day one, I am looking forward to it that much however I am dreading the activation (due to the 2008 experience).

    haha.. this made me laugh.. How was my line pathetic? You, and others, acting like spoilt little kids isnt pathetic? - And to be honest, your comparison of my "line" to those you suggest is just sad.. even for someone like you..

    Maybe SI can assure us that the game will be labelled with a very large clear warning that internet access is required to play the game, rather than as a footnote in small print. Maybe SI can confirm 100% that the 2008 issues (we all know what caused them) cannot happen this year. Of course SI cannot do the latter because by involving activation like this they are leaving the back door unlocked to the kind of "Terrorists" that attacked the servers back then.

    You cannot compare a situation 4 years ago to the FM12 situation.. 4 years is a lifetime in technology. And since Steam works flawlessly for most games I'd bet money on that the activation of FM will work flawlessly also.. - but yeah, ***** can happen unfortunately.

    As for Steam, unless I completely Uninstall I get it popping up lots when I dont want it to (may be in part a Vista issue but Steam is the source of the problem, so here I am having to install 3rd party software I already cannot wait to completely remove again.

    You can turn off all notification from Steam and also you can turn off all notifications from Vista (except if a restart is required..)

    Yesterday I felt like an excited customer looking forward to 21/10/11, now I feel like a mug punter, to be honest.

    Thats too bad..
    Quote Originally Posted by Herter View Post
    ..........
    "someone like you" - thanks for that, really adds weight to your arguement!

    "spoilt little kids....." - only spoilt little kids take that attitude.

    "4 years" - was 3 years actually (2008 - FM2009) you do the math!

    "*** happens"- it happens if you create a situation where it CAN happen.

    "flawlessly for most games" - "most games"?, "all games" would have been more reassuring.


    "too bad" - no comment.

    To be fair you may well be right about the Steam / Vista issues that annoyed me but I never wanted to download Steam - that was the point. I have similar issues with itunes but that is not relevant to this post.

    I appreciate that you do not see my point of view but common courtesy should be shown thank you. I do find it pathetic that someone comes to an SI Games web site and casually recommends that someone who owns every FM title should not buy the game just because you disagree with their point of view. A lot of Posters have claimed they will not buy the game this year - I did not. You may want to ponder for a moment longer before hitting those keys in future!.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcooper View Post
    We're hardly going to answer that to be fair. It'd be like saying "I've protected my valuables." Then saying "they're in a combination safe, in the basement. The safe is made by Yale and has 8 digits in the combination, no two numbers next to each other in the combination are the same. It's in the basement under a blanket". We think it will protect the game, we're not going to tell you how!
    You mean your not going to answer that because a quick look around the net shows that any game you can get on Steam , you can get illegally. In fact it is increasingly the Steam pre load that is cracked and released before retail copies these days.

    You can't answer the question because you know that at best FM12 won't leak until the day of launch and the costly consultancy agency you used told you that pirates will be so desperate to play the game they will rush out and buy it rather than wait a day and get it for free. You know it won't make any difference, but you feel the need to seem like you are doing something to combat piracy .

    The fact is : Steam is no more secure than something as simple as a CD key , you are inconveniencing a portion of your customer base to chase this fabled group of pirates that are actually just dying to pay for their games in the 1 day head start that Steam might give you.
    Last edited by treble_yell_:-); 16-09-2011 at 21:10.

  11. #711
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    Clearly Steam activation is going to happen, so could SI offer some really good downloadable extra content that could pacify the doubters like myself?. Some really good skins or something else that appeals to the majority may be good. Frankly an online games room where you virtually jerk off about you achievements doesnt really do it for me. That has a very limited appeal to the adult gameplayer I suspect.

    I do hope on 21st October I am pleasantly surprised by the activation process.

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    As long as I don't have to buy it through steam I can probably live with it, even if I don't like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1984mattyd View Post
    so are retailers going to tell everyone that comes up to their desk to ask if they have an internet connection before they buy the game so people who do not have internet connection dont get screwed when they take it home and try to install it and then see that they cant play it or return it, surely retailers are going to have to notify customers that fm has now gone this way, if i was running a game retail shop i know i would be telling people as they buy it so that they know instead of watching people get screwed.
    The box will say "an internet connection is required to install this game" or similar.

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    Bought it on Steam last year and didn't any trouble at all - offline or not. I do think SI are being foolishly optimistic in thinking that this will curb piracy somehow. If anything, they've just alienated more of their paying customers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamstudley View Post
    Apologies if this has already been mentioned/answered...

    How is it legal for Sega to insist that customers who have bought a copy of the game are required to install a specific software programme to be able to run the game? And for no other option to be given?

    As an example Microsoft were successfully taken to court over the fact that you had to install certain software on their operating systems. Would this not fall in to the same sphere?

    In a situation where a customer buys a copy of FM12 will they be informed in advance of purchase that they are required to install a third party software in order to play the game (not everyone will be aware of this before purchase)? If not, when they open the game and install to find this out, and are unable/unwilling to install steam, would they receive a refund from sega (as a shop would not issue a refund on an opened game)?

    Personally I have no opinion of steam either way as I have never used it. However, I would have prefered that I didnt have to do this (I am happy with the disc in the drive) as I have no need for steam for any other purpose. But I will more than likely install it so that I can play.

    To all the people saying steam is great and works perfectly for them, congratulations. But surely you realise that that's not the issue that some people have. This is about choice and preference. You choose steam but others should be free not to.

    Sega are trying to justify this by saying it's to combat piracy (which it more than likely won't) and many people don't buy that (I am undecided) - What I would like to know is if steam are paying Sega a fee for exclusivity of this game?

    ...



    I would also be interested to hear an answer to this.

    Did you not think that this decision would alienate part of your fanbase? If no, why not? If yes, why did you deem that acceptable?

    It seems kind of a like it or lump it situation.
    This is exactly how I feel - as I said before I've been playing the CM/FM series for about sixteen years now and have bought (and still have) every single release.

    I won't be purchasing FM2012 now due to the same reasons in your post. Starting to get used to the idea and may'be thinking it's a good thing - I mean how long do you continue playing FM for? It's a shame as if I'd known that FM2011 was going to be my last one then I might have taken a lot more time to do certain challenges etc with it.

    As it is I took it off my PC earlier this evening - preparing myself for a life without FM..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    The Steam client acts as a buffer for registering the game, this is an attempt to cut-down on the piracy. The client will also, when online mode keep your acheivements up-to-date, with Steam offline your achievements aren't recorded, it will also, when online download any patches or updates for the game.

    The internet connection only has to be on to install Steam. Once installed you can unplug your internet and swing it over it your head cowboy style and the game will still run but you have to have Steam running in the background.

    If you don't have Steam running you can't play the game. But it just has to be in the system tray.
    This is what annoys me. A pointless piece of software clogging up the system tray just to be able to play a game. I will try and get more information about Steam before making a final decision, but as things stand I'm more likely not to buy the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCIAG View Post
    The box will say "an internet connection is required to install this game" or similar.
    I wasn't too sure so I had to check, the FM09 box does not state that you need internet access to activate, 2010 has it written on the back of the manual in respect to the Steam option but you don't get to see that at purchase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dafuge View Post
    The child in me wants to mention that red button. Must.... resist....
    I want one of those buttons!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View Post
    There is some real bizarre logic in this thread. Simply put we're running with Steam for this release. If you don't like it, we're sorry but it's not going to change for this release. If you don't want to buy the game simply because you don't want to have to use Steam then you won't buy the game. I don't know why some people are arguing over the fact they're not going to buy the game? Either you are or you aren't, there's not much we can do about that other than reassure you that we feel Steam is the best choice for Football Manager.
    I think this post shows a shocking lack of respect to loyal customers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamstudley View Post
    What I would like to know is if steam are paying Sega a fee for exclusivity of this game?
    Had you read this thread, you'd have known the answer to this question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edwingray View Post
    I think this post shows a shocking lack of respect to loyal customers.
    The term 'loyal' gets banded about too often for my liking, I agree with Neil that there is nothing much that SI can do this close to release but there are things that could have been done that weren't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Profesor View Post
    Had you read this thread, you'd have known the answer to this question.
    I didn't read all of the thread no.

    Hence why i started my post by apologising if anything I was asking had been mentioned already.

    But you'd have known that if you had read all of my post.

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    Have to say I'm dissapointed in this news but not surprised considering an increasing number of PC Retail Games are using Steamworks, the only upside is that at least you aren't using GFWL.

    Whilst Steam has improved over the years and has a fairly large following, I'm not a fan of Steamworks for Retail games when it's forced upon us for various reasons: (Downloading games through Steam is a different matter - it's my choice and I only buy the games when they are a bargain price in the sales).

    - You need to ask permission to play the game each time, if Steam is down, or your internet is or Steam has a problem you are out of luck, and despite what people say the offline mode doesn't work 100% of the time. Imagine if FM2011 was linked to the SegaPass system?

    - You cannot sell the game, lend it to a friend or give it away once you have linked the game to your Steam account - despite what people claim none of these are illegal in the UK provided you don't keep access yourself. I've sold loads of games I've finished with or haven't liked over the years and have even made a profit on occasions. If a game has Steamworks or similar I'll wait for the price to drop or wait to see if it's a good game before buying it. (Though this point doesn't apply for FM for me).

    - As far as I'm aware Steam has no UK presence so if something happens to them or your account there go your games and you are left with no recourse. (Apart from a vague now deleted promise that Valve will free your games if they go bust).


    A couple of questions:

    Can you confirm that the game will only use Steamworks and nothing in addition, Arkham Asylum on Steam for example is a joke not only is it tied to your Steam account you need to log into GFWL to save the game and it also has limited activations.

    Can you say why a Uniloc system wasn't considered (One off activation that can be revoked and used on X computers) I understand Uniloc are no longer around but there are a couple of alternatives (which to be fair have worst press than Steam) as I much prefer a system where licenses can be revoked.

    Is there any chance that the game could be disassoicated from Steam after a set period of time, like the Uniloc acitvations were removed from FM2009?

    Is it possible that the move to Steam could result in more and smaller patches (if they are required), some peoples worries with Steam's Automatic updates is you cannot roll back, being able to do hotfix's especially with the recent changes to how Steam patches would be a nice advantage.

    Is it possible to say how many/percent of boxed copies of FM2011 were activated on Steam? For an idea of how many people activate online against using the disk.

    Finally will FM2012 disappear from Steam a few days before release date in the UK as seems to be happening to most Steamworks games in the UK recently?

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    Quote Originally Posted by smgers View Post
    This is exactly how I feel - as I said before I've been playing the CM/FM series for about sixteen years now and have bought (and still have) every single release.

    I won't be purchasing FM2012 now due to the same reasons in your post. Starting to get used to the idea and may'be thinking it's a good thing - I mean how long do you continue playing FM for? It's a shame as if I'd known that FM2011 was going to be my last one then I might have taken a lot more time to do certain challenges etc with it.

    As it is I took it off my PC earlier this evening - preparing myself for a life without FM..
    Forever. I have to admit when I first read the thread I was dead against it, but after having time to think and looking at what people have been saying, I'm ok with it, if it works is still to be seen. If this is the way that gaming is going then we have to move with the times, like someone said earlier people were up in arms with having the 3D put in, and I think some of them now what the graphics improved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    The term 'loyal' gets banded about too often for my liking, I agree with Neil that there is nothing much that SI can do this close to release but there are things that could have been done that weren't.
    loyal in this case means someone who has the previous ten versions of CM/FM on his shelf. I'm all for SI protecting their games and of course it is their right to choose the system they feel best, but to basically write that "if you don't like it then tough luck" is not exactly consumer friendly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanNUFC View Post
    Aye, well said.

    Now, onto the next argument.
    Really? Read on.

    Quote Originally Posted by vlobben View Post
    As written above, have a friend download it on a usb memory stick and bring it over. It's what I used to do some years ago at least
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ritchie View Post
    Get your mate to put it on a USB stick?

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    Still complaining are we? Can't get over the fact that Steam is a great platform and you should simply deal with it? If you don't like it, don't buy it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamstudley View Post
    I didn't read all of the thread no.

    Hence why i started my post by apologising if anything I was asking had been mentioned already.

    But you'd have known that if you had read all of my post.
    My apologies if there was a specific reason you demanded an answer to a question especially for yourself even though it had already been answered. It's only natural that SI/SEGA employees should wait for you to post the question for the umpteenth time on a Friday evening so that they can repeat the same answer again. Silly me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David - SEGA View Post
    Hi, Yes Steam will need to remain installed. However this offers great benefits such as top quality download speeds, automatic updates & achievements to track you progress
    You mean crap download speeds (especially if you are not in NA/Europe), bloatware you need to install even if you don't want it, forced updates that you can't even turn off if you don't want it, and achievements that exist in non-Steam games anyway.

    Time to reconsider my purchase. I like paying money to support developers, I don't like paying money to support Steam. Hell, whether sales go up or down, suits will just blame piracy (even though Steam doesn't stop piracy).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    The term 'loyal' gets banded about too often for my liking, I agree with Neil that there is nothing much that SI can do this close to release but there are things that could have been done that weren't.
    +1

    Not really sure how much more can be said about this imo. At the end of the day, you are either going to buy it, or you are not. And if indeed it does turn out to be disaster (i suspect it will be fairly successful) then i'm sure they will look at other options for FM13, or at least i would hope they would look at other options

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    They aren't my customers and I'm not misrepresenting any arguments.

    The chief objection seems to be that a separate application is needed for authentication, so what if SI produced an authenticator which was a separate app, would the same objections be valid?

    Steam doesn't require payment, it doesn't require sensitive information, so why are people so obsessively against it (many of whom have never tried it)?
    3rd Party Application.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    Still complaining are we? Can't get over the fact that Steam is a great platform and you should simply deal with it? If you don't like it, don't buy it.
    Great in your opinion.

    Why do people who like steam feel the need to make comments like this?

    You are entitled to like steam but others are entitled to have their own opinion, even if this differs from yours (radical idea, I know), and shouldn't be forced down one path.

    As for the 'dont like it dont buy it' thats going to be the tag line on the FM12 box isn't it?

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    Whoever deleted my post at least infract me to know what I did wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Profesor View Post
    My apologies if there was a specific reason you demanded an answer to a question especially for yourself even though it had already been answered. It's only natural that SI/SEGA employees should wait for you to post the question for the umpteenth time on a Friday evening so that they can repeat the same answer again. Silly me.
    I didn't demand. Hence 'I would like to know'.

    Instead of posting a smart arse comment in the first place maybe you could have just polietly informed that in fact somebody had already asked and that and the answer was xyz, istead of being a d1ck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamstudley View Post
    Great in your opinion.

    Why do people who like steam feel the need to make comments like this?
    Most likely because people who DON'T like Steam feel the need to make equally objective comments about how terrible it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    TBH I missed it when a post eluded to it earlier & I should know better so no blame to take on board.

    Would also be worth some browny points in the press if a solution could be arranged & as the garrison's are British soveriegn soil German law on this matter should not apply, would be rather embarrassing if a distribution agreement has already be made with NAAFI.
    You can play FM in germany. Only issue is that you should buy the game through any other IP. For instance - I bought FM 2009 through Steam while in Moscow even though it wasn't available in Russia through Steam. Just happened that I was working for US company and our internet server was running through London, thus I has UK IP. Didn't even install Steam - just went to my account, changed address in personal info to UK (credit card info stayed Russian or Ukrainian, don't remember which one I used for payment)... and here you go - I had my FM2009 acuired and ready to be installed via ANY IP (did it at home through Russian IP).

    The same happened with FM 2011 - bought it via steam for me and my friend while on business trip to France (had to change location to France). Though FM2011 became available through Steam for all former USSR territories (and IPs ) in about two weeks...

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    From what I've heard CD Projekt hasn't gone bankrupt yet even though they tried their best to succeed in that by releasing their game, The Witcher 2, without any copy protection. Oh and they even got sued by doing that from distributors...

    Surely things aren't so grim for poor ol' Football Manager, no?

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    If i was to buy the disc version. Would i have to use steam in the background while playing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Machetero View Post
    You can play FM in germany. Only issue is that you should buy the game through any other IP. For instance - I bought FM 2009 through Steam while in Moscow even though it wasn't available in Russia through Steam. Just happened that I was working for US company and our internet server was running through London, thus I has UK IP. Didn't even install Steam - just went to my account, changed address in personal info to UK (credit card info stayed Russian or Ukrainian, don't remember which one I used for payment)... and here you go - I had my FM2009 acuired and ready to be installed via ANY IP (did it at home through Russian IP).

    The same happened with FM 2011 - bought it via steam for me and my friend while on business trip to France (had to change location to France). Though FM2011 became available through Steam for all former USSR territories (and IPs ) in about two weeks...
    I wouldn't try that with all those games in my account. It is too close to using VPN to buy games (cheaper) in another currency, which is forbidden and bannable on account level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcooper View Post
    Fair question, and I honestly don;t know the answer. You can thank German law and EA exclusive license for us not being able to serve Germany, but for forces and people activating disc games there, I don;t know. That doesn't mean SEGA haven't though of it, before someone jumps on it, just that at this time I can't ask and don't know!
    Surely you wouldn't want to circumvent German law and disrespect the EA license?

    You should respect German law and the EA exclusive license in the same way people have to do so with the EULA on Sega games.

    You lot already circumvent certain issues with the .LNC fix, which conveneinty allows certain things to happen - as if it's been programmed that if you change a few files that some names change - names that have issues with trademark issues and whatnot, weird that. Then you and your colleagues lecture people on how EULA should not be broken, lol.


    I trust that the .LNC fix will be eradicated in FM2012 and beyond to respect holders' rights? I assume it be quite simple to do in the context of things.
    Last edited by jpwild; 16-09-2011 at 22:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7Bestie7 View Post
    Most likely because people who DON'T like Steam feel the need to make equally objective comments about how terrible it is.
    Yes but if steam is great and works for you then there is no problem. You can buy the game and enjoy it. Why wind up the people who have concerns which they would like addressed (even if some of these concerns are stupid or poorly conveyed).

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    so what happens if steam disappears in 2 years and i want to play my FM12 then?? since i cant, will sega repay me??

    also, i think it is time SI parted ways with sega who do nothing to add anything to the game and only take a % of the profits for doing nothing. surely SI would be more profitable without them taking a % of the profits. the fact that Sonic was the last good game produced by them says a lot.

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    Rather harsh on Sega as they do plenty of work with SI, in all honesty I doubt the title would exist if it wasn't for their support & as for Sonic they've produced plenty of excellent titles since they stopped producing consoles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcooper View Post
    Firstly, thanks for one of the more considered and constructive posts on the subject.
    A few areas where we will disagree I'm afraid...
    I agree that there's no difference to you if 1000 or 10000 people pirate the game, the income is the same. But if you don't protect your product in some way, you are relying on the good nature of consumers to pay for what they can get for free.
    What else do you have? Force? You can't make people pay for software. They hold the purse strings - push them, and they are likely to just turn away.

    Why should a business not assume good faith from their customers? Treat us like customers, not dirt.

    My view on DRM is that it needs to be non-invasive and only prevent casual piracy - if we need to make a significant effort in order to copy software illegally, then the average consumer won't bother. If it's a determined cracker, you're not going to stop them anyway. As a result, I don't believe there's anything wrong with protecting software in this way - but it needs to be non-invasive and almost invisible. This doesn't fall into this category.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcooper View Post
    There's a reason people lock their shops when they close at night. How many of those 1000, or 10000 people pirate the game because it's an option, an easy option?
    Firstly, locking your shop is not comparable as piracy is not theft.



    It doesn't matter if X people pirate the game because it's an easy option. Why should it matter? It is not like you are going to get any money from these X people even if piracy didn't exist.

    What matters is the 1000-X or 10000-X customers who might be willing to pay if you make it tempting enough. And clearly, the more that pirate your game, the more likely you have a group of people (X) who are willing to pay if circumstances change.

    Piracy will always be the easy option. It takes pirates a few days (or hours nowadays, really) to crack a game, and it takes minutes for a pirate to install and play the game, without DRM (or Steam). You can make it difficult for the hackers to break it, but to the pirates, it's a matter of downloading a cracked executable. You can't make that hard. Besides, with Steam installation and activation, you've arguably made it harder than downloading a crack.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcooper View Post
    The game will not be leaked before release and we think it is important that there aren't pirated versions of the game available before legitimate customers can get the game.
    Every company tries to avoid leaks - even the cash-cow games like CoD have had leaks. You can't guarantee it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcooper View Post
    I'm also not pretending that FM is the only pirated game out there. But it's the software in question here and it's pirated heavily, not just in developing or poor nations, in developed rich countries by people that go on Facebook and brag about it because they think it's ok. It's not.
    This isn't a strategy that's born out of anger or frustration, although it is both frustrating and, erm, anger-making. We spend millions and months each year on making the game better, delivering a better and better product to turn people on to buying it. That's how we try to convince people to become legitimate customers. However just leaving the door open and operating a trust system of payment just isn't viable. Microsoft may be able to sit and wait for entire economies to grow before seeing the benefits of their work, most other organisations can't.
    And I'm telling you that not trusting your customers is going to make things worse!

    If there are customers out there who can afford the game but brag online about pirating it, then tough - do you really think you are going to make money out of them? Probably not! Since you are not going to make money off them, why waste your time on them? Yes, it is frustrating, but literally nothing can be done about it. FM12 will be too annoying for them to pirate, so they'll just ignore the game. If they pirate, Sega make £0 out of them. If they ignore the game, Sega make £0 out of them.

    If you consider these customers as likely to convert to paying customers, there's an increase in revenues there. However, this has to outweigh the lost indirect revenues such as word-of-mouth, as well as lost goodwill (just look at this thread!), and many other factors.

    ByteShield, SI's old DRM software, has a whitepaper here: http://www.byteshield.net/byteshield...paper_0005.pdf

    Although ByteShield has a clear conflict of interest in this area, it's an intriguing read.

    Evidence is largely inconclusive on the impact of "lost sales" (or indeed, "gained sales") due to piracy. What is clear, however, is that pirates buy more legal stuff, and there is a good argument that if you removed piracy, these pirates wouldn't buy the legal stuff.

    And you don't have to wait for economies to grow. That girl who pirated FM and bragged about it on her Facebook profile - her 200 or so friends have now seen this update with Football Manager mentioned in it, and are suddenly aware of what it is. Sure, you might have lost this one girl, but you have gained 200 potential customers. In the spirit of "the more **** you throw at the wall, the more likely some will stick", you might get some customers out of this 200. If not, they pirate and it continues to spread. Some cannot be "saved" from a piracy point of view, but cut your losses, grit your teeth, and look at those who can. You might feel angry, but getting angry over someone who can't be saved is pointless. Use them to spread word-of-mouth, and look at the remaining 200.

    You want word-of-mouth, and piracy is a convenient way of doing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcooper View Post
    We don't believe we've made piracy more attractive.
    You have - someone who doesn't like Steam is now more likely to go ahead and pirate.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcooper View Post
    We don't believe we've put a heavy burden on legitimate consumers, it's a hurdle sure, but we think it's a very low one.
    But one that has deep implications for what we are used to. (*)

    - We can no longer sell the software on the second-hand market.
    - We have an additional layer of red tape should something go wrong.
    - Steam is another point of failure.
    - If Steam goes bankrupt, it is not legally obliged to "unlock" software for their customers (in fact, they would probably be sued by the publishers if they tried).
    - What about other distribution companies? Why just Steam? Is there a competition issue here?
    - Steam is based in the US - will non-US customers have legal recourse if they feel some of their rights are violated?
    - Security. Things are being hacked left-right-and-centre here. Why should we need to entrust Steam with additional details?

    These are not unfounded worries and are brought up in pretty much every Steam debate. For some, these are important questions, although they are just perhaps in principle.

    It is a burden to me, and a significant one. And it's one I'm used to somewhat - Civilization V and Total War: Shogun 2 are two games I'd love to play but cannot out of principle, because I feel Steam is DRM masquerading as non-DRM and curtails my rights in an unacceptable way. I trust SI and am willing to part with some of my rights in that EULA - but I have no reason to trust Steam. Yet Sega is claiming we "need" Steam. No - Sega need Steam. We don't.

    I could understand if FM and Steam were so tightly-bound together, for example if SI took advantage of most of Steam's features including purchasing software, social networking, buddy lists and so on, meaning that there was a definite advantage for a user to have Steam too, but this is not the case. We know this because FM11 didn't need Steam, and nobody sees FM needing these features.

    ----

    Probably the saddest thing is that we should have seen it coming once SI released a Steam-only skin for FM10 - the notion that Steam customers were more highly-valued than us DVD-inserting folk.

    I'm not being able to prove a negative. So I'd like to pose you, or another Sega staff member, this question: For those of us who have always preferred DVD activation without Steam, what's in this change for us?

    Please don't say there is no negative impact - those that fall in my position want to hear positive things about this impact. We don't give a rat's arse about piracy (well, I do, but I'm in the minority here), nor Sega corporate-talk - what's in it for me, your customer? Benefits. Tell us why it outweighs the concerns in (*) above.

    ----

    And as an aside, I'm fairly disgusted but somewhat resigned to the fact you feel I a customer can't be trusted (the red bits above). I've spread word about your game. I've tweeted it several times, and have talked about it on other forums. I've bought your software. I've contributed to your forums. And you say I can't be trusted? Then you wonder why there is so much resentment towards DRM (and not just this instance).

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    x42bn6, very well said sir!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamstudley View Post
    x42bn6, very well said sir!!
    As said above, your posts in this thread are fantastic- very well written and you put across very good points with plenty of well sourced material to back up your ideas.

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    x42bn6



    Well thought-out, intelligent and informed response.

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    x42bn6, amazing truly amazing

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    just a shame it'll get ignored. (not that it would have even been considered in the first place) the decision has already been made...

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    x42bn6

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamstudley View Post
    Apologies if this has already been mentioned/answered...

    How is it legal for Sega to insist that customers who have bought a copy of the game are required to install a specific software programme to be able to run the game? And for no other option to be given?

    As an example Microsoft were successfully taken to court over the fact that you had to install certain software on their operating systems. Would this not fall in to the same sphere?

    In a situation where a customer buys a copy of FM12 will they be informed in advance of purchase that they are required to install a third party software in order to play the game (not everyone will be aware of this before purchase)? If not, when they open the game and install to find this out, and are unable/unwilling to install steam, would they receive a refund from sega (as a shop would not issue a refund on an opened game)?

    Sega are trying to justify this by saying it's to combat piracy (which it more than likely won't) and many people don't buy that (I am undecided) - What I would like to know is if steam are paying Sega a fee for exclusivity of this game?
    Microsoft got into trouble for abusing their monopoly in the OS market to force IE on people, Sega don't have a monopoly on PC Games hence it has no bearing.

    Steamworks games (Well Orange Box, Fallout: New Vegas and Deus Ex) have a couple of lines on the back saying you need to accept the Steam aggreement and activate online to play, slightly worrying is that they say you need to return the game unopened if you don't agree, but no link to the actual game EULA is provided just where you can read the generic Steam License. Returnability will depend on retailer, the actual EULA and your country.

    Valve offer Steamworks for free and as far as I'm aware don't offer companies money to use Steamworks, though SEGA would save money by not paying for the DRM scheme or hosting costs of game/demo/patches etc...
    Last edited by michaeltmurrayuk; 16-09-2011 at 22:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamstudley View Post
    x42bn6, very well said sir!!
    Whs.

    I've used Steam. I don't like it, online or offline. I found it unreliable, nothing to do with resource hogging or data mining.

    My son uses it. He finds it unreliable but has a little more patience than me and will persevere more.

    Some like the system, some don't; both sides have their reasons.

    I don't want to only be able to play when Steam deem it ok. I don't want the other great benefits Steam allegedly bestows upon me as I have no need of buddy lists, ads for games I'll never buy or shallow achievement systems. I don't want my game auto-patching due to my internet cap and a personal preference of doing it at the end of a season.

    I'll stick with the old games. As good as FM12 looks, it won't change my mind regarding Steam.

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    I planned to buy FM12 like I did with previous versions, but I think I'll pirate it this year so I won't have to deal with the steam hassle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by athos View Post
    I planned to buy FM12 like I did with previous versions, but I think I'll pirate it this year so I won't have to deal with the steam hassle.
    Go ahead, sure way to make it so we keep getting a better a better game....

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    Devastated! Bought Fm off steam last year worst decision ever. When i boot it up with no internet it tries to update and basically no matter what won't go into offline mode!!! SO thought next year can't wait to buy the disc to not have to go through this again when travelling and now this but a real downer on all my excitement for this game

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    This is why we're going to provide as much customer care as we can in regards to FM and Steam. If you're having issues with offline mode, we'll be able to try and help. With offline, the best way to get it to work would be, for example with FM12, would be once the game is installed, set Steam to offline mode and set it to start in offline mode. Close Steam, disconnect from the Internet and launch the game. It should launch with no issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PSJMcNeill View Post
    Devastated! Bought Fm off steam last year worst decision ever. When i boot it up with no internet it tries to update and basically no matter what won't go into offline mode!!! SO thought next year can't wait to buy the disc to not have to go through this again when travelling and now this but a real downer on all my excitement for this game
    That's not normal behaviour for Steam though so should be easily resolvable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View Post
    This is why we're going to provide as much customer care as we can in regards to FM and Steam. If you're having issues with offline mode, we'll be able to try and help. With offline, the best way to get it to work would be, for example with FM12, would be once the game is installed, set Steam to offline mode and set it to start in offline mode. Close Steam, disconnect from the Internet and launch the game. It should launch with no issues.
    Yeah Neil sounds great... we'd rather you spend time on improving the game not helping people sort out their problems with a 3rd party software that you have no control over yet force directly upon us. Sales figures will suffer, of that you can be certain, but no doubt SI and SEGA will blame the "financial crisis" instead of accepting that people just don't want what is on offer this year.

    We want the choice, we want to choose whether to have a piece of software running that we have no other use for, and if the only way to choose against that software is to not buy the game... then I'll not buy the game

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View Post
    This is why we're going to provide as much customer care as we can in regards to FM and Steam. If you're having issues with offline mode, we'll be able to try and help. With offline, the best way to get it to work would be, for example with FM12, would be once the game is installed, set Steam to offline mode and set it to start in offline mode. Close Steam, disconnect from the Internet and launch the game. It should launch with no issues.
    fair enough you are going to provide as much customer care as possible. BUT I DONT WANT TO USE STEAM in the first place, what customer care are you going to provide to me? because to me it looks like im just being told to lump it or leave it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCIAG View Post
    The box will say "an internet connection is required to install this game" or similar.
    Surely it will have to say "Steam must be downloaded from the internet, and then used to activate the game before you can play it". Anything less would be a swindle in my opinion.
    Also, it will be interesting to see what prominence is given to this information!

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    It is nice the way steam automatically updates FM, however you will need to provide excellent customer service to keep everyone happy as I have had my fair number of problems with steam. Just hope the time put into Helping people with steam doesn't take away from the development of the game

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    I work in customer service for a living and I am concerned that the response we seem to be getting from you guys is 'well if you don't like it, tough, coz that's what we are doing anyway...'

    Doesn't seem to be great customer service, regardless of circumstances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazaru5 View Post
    Yeah Neil sounds great... we'd rather you spend time on improving the game not helping people sort out their problems with a 3rd party software that you have no control over
    That's actually a pretty good point.

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    The only pop-up you get from Steam is the Deals Update that is shown when you close the game you are playing. And the deals they have are usually pretty darn good.

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    There was a very (imo) interesting post in the main forum and I was looking forward to sigames response to it. Unfortunately that post got deleted.

    FWIW, I already have steam so this change shouldn't affect me, however I do sympathie with those who do not gave steam and do not wish to install it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    That's not normal behaviour for Steam though so should be easily resolvable.
    That's normal behaviour for Steam in offline mode in my experience. No matter how many times or how carefully I followed the instructions, the damned thing wouldn't work in the way it should. Seems like I'm not the only one.
    Last edited by jptykes; 16-09-2011 at 23:11.

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    So, the new perception is "If you like FM, you MUST like Steam"?

    Why you risk your own great reputation with the far lower profile one?

    If you really want to attach your value with any anti-piracy software, why didn't you choose the best available or at least one that could match your own reputation..

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevetranmere View Post
    fair enough you are going to provide as much customer care as possible. BUT I DONT WANT TO USE STEAM in the first place, what customer care are you going to provide to me? because to me it looks like im just being told to lump it or leave it?
    It's your choice to word it that way but seems fairly obvious to me that it's Steam or nothing, I have to say I was as vehemently opposed to Steam as you are once but then it was a choice of using it or not getting a game I really wanted, so I bit the bullet and discovered that all my fears were groundless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuryBlade View Post
    I work in customer service for a living and I am concerned that the response we seem to be getting from you guys is 'well if you don't like it, tough, coz that's what we are doing anyway...'

    Doesn't seem to be great customer service, regardless of circumstances.
    Actually we're simply stating the facts. What else are we supposed to say? People who aren't willing to use Steam won't be able to play Football Manager 2012. No-one has written "If you don't like it - tough" anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    No, it's not. It's game theory and much more complicated than that. You underestimate the power of word-of-mouth.

    This series is heavily-pirated, partly because it is so awesome. However, pirates spread word-of-mouth too. In poorer nations, piracy will be close to 100% but then again, once that nation starts developing, or the game becomes really tempting, some of that percentage will turn into paying customers. You could not do that if piracy didn't exist.

    If you like, you will get more direct benefits, but less indirect benefits.

    Plus, there is the awkward area where pirates actually buy more. Stamp out piracy and you stamp out these customers.

    There are some pirates whom you will never make money off - those aren't of your concern. Your concern is those who might buy but don't for whatever reasonable reason. Those people may pay you in the future. Not those who will never buy.

    If your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 1000 times, there is no difference to your direct bottom line if your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 10000 times. The piracy rate is a bit of a misnomer. If your piracy rate is high, all it means is that you have more potential future customers to tap into - that's it.



    Do you think this actually matters? Anyone who obtains your product before the actual release date is pirating, whether it's Steam-only or not. The product can be leaked whether it's Steam-only or not. Whether it's Steam-only or not does not matter.



    Strawman much? Nobody has said that you've reduced our choices in purchasing the software - you've reduced our choices in activating the software.



    This is true for pretty much every single piece of software out there. Let's not pretend FM is special here.

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...re-piracy-rate

    Look at that!



    I think this poll is going in the right direction then.

    Sure, most people might not mind... But it's the customers you've lost that surely matter.

    Like I said, this will be a pyrrhic victory in your fight for piracy, and don't be surprised if your bottom line is impacted by it. Piracy rate is just one of those mildly interesting KPIs that organisations love to optimise, but the bottom line is what truly matters.

    I am a developer, and I have developed software before. I've seen it pirated before. I've released digital work under copyright and seen it misused without my permission before. You feel indignation, anger and annoyance when you see this - how dare this person take my work and use them for free, perhaps to his or her own benefit! However, I took a step back and thought about it - they used my work because they thought it was fun, useful or exciting for them. It helped them in some way. Then I think that there could be loads more people out there who appreciate my work, and that is the market I need to aim for. People will always pirate my work - but it is those who appreciate it and reuse it with permission who really mean something to me. I treat these people as "trialists" who can be converted into customers. It's where you realise that you feel indignation, anger and annoyance due to a loss of control, not a financial loss. I put my heart and soul into that piece of work, and someone misuses it - that effort feels for nothing. Yet I know that that person is only helping me become more known indirectly - I may benefit from it further down the line.

    What I really need to care about is keeping my existing customer-base, and growing it.

    You cannot stop piracy by making piracy more tempting. Reducing choice does exactly that - it drives people to pirate, where they can get a piece of software with less of a burden.

    Piracy needs to be treated more as an overhead and an opportunity rather than a slammed-shut door.

    Photoshop is an example. I'd guess most copies of Photoshop are pirated nowadays, and have been for a while. However, the kid that gets his or her hands grubby with a pirated version of Photoshop and falls in love with it is likely to become a paying licensee when he or she graduates from University with an Art degree into the media industry. All this means is that Photoshop has found a potential market for budding art students, and that if it can make its software so awesome and value-for-money that young students start using it, the company benefits in the long run.

    Look at this: http://piracy.ssrc.org/adobe-logic/

    Bill Gates has spoke on getting China drunk on Microsoft software (pirated, of course), so that when China's economy grows, Microsoft essentially locks-in and silos the Chinese into Microsoft products, benefiting them in the long run. Windows and Office are pirated heavily, but the last thing Microsoft wants to do is come down hard on it right now.

    Spread your seeds, and wait for them to blossom.

    I must stress that I believe piracy is wrong, since it is against the law in many countries - but there are ways to tackle piracy that are perhaps not that logical at first. One example is legalising drugs - for some, there might be incredulous gasps, but if you think about it, it's not the most idiotic suggestion in the world (i.e. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...isation-report - although I know this is controversial in itself).
    42tresbn6.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View Post
    Actually we're simply stating the facts. What else are we supposed to say? People who aren't willing to use Steam won't be able to play Football Manager 2012. No-one has written "If you don't like it - tough" anywhere.
    forgive me , but you just did... " People who aren't willing to use Steam won't be able to play Football Manager "

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    I get the feeling another way this will impact sales is that for customers like me, who don't always fancy buying the 'yearly update' (yeah it's a cliche i know) would simply settle for playing older versions with updated databases. especially if the features aren't justifiable of another £30 anyway. FM11 is a great game and I increasingly dont see the need to rush out and download steam so i can play FM12... SI should be concentrating on the quality of the product itself, not just banking on that the same old suckers 'will buy it anyway and the people who dont like it can shove it'

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    Quote Originally Posted by jptykes View Post
    That's normal behaviour for Steam in offline mode in my experience. No matter how many times or how carefully I followed the instructions, the damned thing wouldn't work in the way it should. Seems like I'm not the only one.
    Even so I'm pretty sure you're in a tiny minority and you have an issue that is probably resolvable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View Post
    Actually we're simply stating the facts. What else are we supposed to say? People who aren't willing to use Steam won't be able to play Football Manager 2012. No-one has written "If you don't like it - tough" anywhere.
    That's effectively the message though. I can see it from your perspective and that it must have been a difficult decision, but I think it will prove to be a fairly unpopular decision. I want to buy and play FM as I have done every year. I don't want to have to use Steam to play FM. It's like being told you can't order the drink you want at the bar unless you are willing to sit in a certain seat... at the far end of the bar, where it's cold and damp...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View Post
    Actually we're simply stating the facts. What else are we supposed to say? People who aren't willing to use Steam won't be able to play Football Manager 2012. No-one has written "If you don't like it - tough" anywhere.
    And by the way, What else are you supposed to say? How about offering an alternative??

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    Put it this way.

    Decision has been made. They are letting you know.

    Buy it or don't buy it. There's nothing they can do now. Deal is made.

    Use Steam or don't play FM12.

    Nobody can do anything.


    Personally - I think a lot of people are overreacting to the Steam thing.

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    Well there you have it - years of being a loyal customer and buying every yearly update and then SI/Sega go and **** all over you - ****ing typical!

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevetranmere View Post
    And by the way, What else are you supposed to say? How about offering an alternative??
    There's no real point in arguing it further. It seems that there'll be no alternative except not buying the game. I'm 99% sure that's the path I'll take.

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    More and more pc games are either steamworked or required online activation these days, so this doesnt really affects me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggins' Young Boys View Post
    I get the feeling another way this will impact sales is that for customers like me, who don't always fancy buying the 'yearly update' (yeah it's a cliche i know) would simply settle for playing older versions with updated databases. especially if the features aren't justifiable of another £30 anyway. FM11 is a great game and I increasingly dont see the need to rush out and download steam so i can play FM12... SI should be concentrating on the quality of the product itself, not just banking on that the same old suckers 'will buy it anyway and the people who dont like it can shove it'
    Errr, what exactly has deciding to use Steam for authentication to do with the quality of FM?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View Post
    This is why we're going to provide as much customer care as we can in regards to FM and Steam. If you're having issues with offline mode, we'll be able to try and help. With offline, the best way to get it to work would be, for example with FM12, would be once the game is installed, set Steam to offline mode and set it to start in offline mode. Close Steam, disconnect from the Internet and launch the game. It should launch with no issues.
    Completely pointless post... we dont want help with steam problems.. if there is no steam layer, there are no steam problems. WE DONT WANT STEAM. give us another option, If I buy a game in a shop I want to play it from the CD/DVD, when I buy a film DVD it does not need 3rd party software to play in my DVD player and Im sure piracy is just as big a problem in the movie market. Frankly your reasons for using steam exclusively just dont make any sense

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    Currently Active Users
    There are currently 1634 users online. 634 members and 1000 guests
    Most users ever online was 8,587, 14-11-2008 at 17:07.
    FM09 release 'hardest' day of Jacobson's career
    http://n4g.com/news/262918/fm09-rele...cobsons-career

    I wonder if 21st October 2011 might surpass both Miles' "hardest day of his career" and the number of people online record... wotcha reckon?

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    wow 8 pages now, im sure SI and SEGA were well aware of the outcry this would cause, but i am also sure they have looked at the figures and are confident this will work out for them. Theres not much else to be said, this will happen for FM12 no doubting that, if its succesful it will carry on, if not they will look at it again. I actually do understand some of the concerns, apart from the resource and privacy issues, they are nonsense, i personally have never had a steam issue or a problem using it offline but if people do have issues then this could really work against SI, they shouldnt really be having to worry about spending any time or resources on steam.
    There was outcry when they first introduced DMR, and these things will never be everyone's cup of tea, but sadly because of piracy, which despite what anyone says is theft, this is the way things will go, in a few years time i can see most games on most formats being sold this way.

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    The more I read these repsonses (not directed at anyone) the more I have to say people are overreacting.

    It's not hard to install Steam. It's not a memory hog. It won't slow down your computer. It won't do anything malicious, like mine data, or sell your soul.

    It will allow you to activate FM 12

    And that's all it is an activation. It takes 2 minutes after installing the game. After that pop it into offline mode - there you go.


    I literally much ado about nothing.

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    Im in the bracket that Im not really fussed with this change

    Nearly spat my beer out at the post on a previous page with a poster stating they had no access to the internet whilst posting on an online forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    Errr, what exactly has deciding to use Steam for authentication to do with the quality of FM?
    Ask BertieBG, who's already informed us that they'll make more money this way and therefore create better games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ritchie View Post
    There's no real point in arguing it further. It seems that there'll be no alternative except not buying the game. I'm 99% sure that's the path I'll take.
    If I felt as you obviously do I'd wait to see how it all goes and make a decision after that, from my own experiences I think those who do use Steam for the first time won't find it the ogre they expect it to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ritchie View Post
    Ask BertieBG, who's already informed us that they'll make more money this way and therefore create better games.
    Yeh but that's a plus surely, not a minus

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamstudley View Post
    Yes but if steam is great and works for you then there is no problem. You can buy the game and enjoy it. Why wind up the people who have concerns which they would like addressed (even if some of these concerns are stupid or poorly conveyed).
    Because this thread is pretty much 75% of people either telling everyone how bad Steam is or how wrong it is that they have to use it. Now while the latter might be a valid point, the former certainly needs balancing out for those who have never actually used Steam before.

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    I get the impression that there are people within SI who are sympathetic towards the no to Steam group but for obvious corporate reason their hands are tied on this issue. I'm basing this one the tone of some of the post that I've read & the fact the the likes of Neil are still posting at this late hour on a Friday & this leads on to the customer service point, how many companies can you think off that would have key employees communicating with their consumer base in this way?

    I believe people do not fully understand what true customer srevice is, what it isn't is bending over backwards to change a situation that cannot be changed to suit the needs of a minority, for those that have not been paying attention I am part of that minority who do not want a 100% Steam activation system.
    Last edited by Barside; 16-09-2011 at 23:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    Even so I'm pretty sure you're in a tiny minority and you have an issue that is probably resolvable.
    And assuming it's not resolvable - as it wasn't in the past - I've spent £30 on a shiny coaster to put my cuppa on while playing FM11 and a replacement dvd case. Hardly value for money.

    And while I may be in a minority in experiencing this particular problem, the minority of those who are anti-Steam for other reasons is larger and very much unhappy.

    Ultimately nothing will change SI or Sega's stance, it's just unfortunate this has been announced so late and with no alternative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    Yeh but that's a plus surely, not a minus
    I'd rather not comment on what a statement like that is

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    The more I read these repsonses (not directed at anyone) the more I have to say people are overreacting.

    It's not hard to install Steam. It's not a memory hog. It won't slow down your computer. It won't do anything malicious, like mine data, or sell your soul.

    It will allow you to activate FM 12

    And that's all it is an activation. It takes 2 minutes after installing the game. After that pop it into offline mode - there you go.


    I literally much ado about nothing.
    But ofcourse then there's those that all of a sudden don't have the internet or just want the choice or those who want to just bitch and moan.
    Last edited by SeanNUFC; 16-09-2011 at 23:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kccircle View Post
    Im in the bracket that Im not really fussed with this change

    Nearly spat my beer out at the post on a previous page with a poster stating they had no access to the internet whilst posting on an online forum
    Can't let the obvious truth spoil a good rant now can we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    Errr, what exactly has deciding to use Steam for authentication to do with the quality of FM?
    i'm saying that SI may have to increase the quality of their yearly update to compensate for customers potentially lost by this steam issue otherwise users may stick with older versions with updated databases if they dont feel that the product on offer is also sufficient quality.

    let's face it, there are people here that don't like this steam activation but if the game was groundbreaking enough or had an amazing new feature (perhaps a new hat?) then they would still buy it anyway...

    just thinking out loud. i know i'd rather just update FM11 with a better database than buy FM12 at this moment in time as FM12 doesn't offer me something that would make me bite the bullet and conform to the steam masses

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View Post
    This is why we're going to provide as much customer care as we can in regards to FM and Steam. If you're having issues with offline mode, we'll be able to try and help. With offline, the best way to get it to work would be, for example with FM12, would be once the game is installed, set Steam to offline mode and set it to start in offline mode. Close Steam, disconnect from the Internet and launch the game. It should launch with no issues.
    Neil are you SERIOUSLY SUGGESTING that people play FM with their internet entirely turned off? So the entire community that is FM gamers goes totally bust because you've "allied" with a platform that doesn't work properly for a large number of users in offline mode?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    I get the impression that there are people within SI who are sympathetic towards the no to Steam group but for obvious corporate reason their hands are tied on this issue. I'm basing this one the tone of some of thep post that I've read & the fact the the likes of Neil are still posting at this late hour on a Friday & this leads on to the customer service point, how many companies can you think off that would have key employees communicating with their consumer base in this way?

    I believe people do not fully understand what true customer srevice is, what it isn't is bending over backwards to change a situation that cannot be changed to suit the needs of a minority, for those that have not been paying attention I am part of that minority who do not want a 100% Steam activation system.
    i was just thinking the very same! We may not agree on the steam thing but your right there are few compaines who would do the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View Post
    Actually we're simply stating the facts. What else are we supposed to say? People who aren't willing to use Steam won't be able to play Football Manager 2012. No-one has written "If you don't like it - tough" anywhere.
    Sometimes you don't need to say something so bluntly for it to appear in a certain way. If someone doesn't want to use Steam, they won't be able to play the game. So, if they don't like it, what exactly should they do? They won't be able to play FM12.

    To me, that seems like an extended version of 'if you don't like it - tough'.

    Personally, I really don't like Steam. I'm not going to say I won't buy or play FM12 because of it, because I probably will. But that's not to say I don't strongly disagree with the decision - and that includes making us use Steam as well as the motives behind it, as I really can't see it affecting piracy levels (especially in the way you're hoping).

    Whilst I'm likely to play FM12, I'm becoming more and more disillusioned by action such as this and I have to say that I'm not sure how much longer I'll be a player of the FM series.

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    This means I will not buy FM 12. Or any future games if this policy persists.

    Simple as.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    i was just thinking the very same! We may not agree on the steam thing but your right there are few compaines who would do the same.
    As a customer service advisor myself, I have to agree with you; hats off to them for still being up responding, even if I am totally against the idea of Steam being involved.
    Last edited by BuryBlade; 16-09-2011 at 23:32. Reason: spelling

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