Fresh install of Steam uses 251,5MB of RAM on Mac OS X 10.6.8 ....
Fresh install of Steam uses 251,5MB of RAM on Mac OS X 10.6.8 ....
Last edited by Louwen; 16-09-2011 at 20:50.
Apologies if this has already been mentioned/answered...
How is it legal for Sega to insist that customers who have bought a copy of the game are required to install a specific software programme to be able to run the game? And for no other option to be given?
As an example Microsoft were successfully taken to court over the fact that you had to install certain software on their operating systems. Would this not fall in to the same sphere?
In a situation where a customer buys a copy of FM12 will they be informed in advance of purchase that they are required to install a third party software in order to play the game (not everyone will be aware of this before purchase)? If not, when they open the game and install to find this out, and are unable/unwilling to install steam, would they receive a refund from sega (as a shop would not issue a refund on an opened game)?
Personally I have no opinion of steam either way as I have never used it. However, I would have prefered that I didnt have to do this (I am happy with the disc in the drive) as I have no need for steam for any other purpose. But I will more than likely install it so that I can play.
To all the people saying steam is great and works perfectly for them, congratulations. But surely you realise that that's not the issue that some people have. This is about choice and preference. You choose steam but others should be free not to.
Sega are trying to justify this by saying it's to combat piracy (which it more than likely won't) and many people don't buy that (I am undecided) - What I would like to know is if steam are paying Sega a fee for exclusivity of this game?
Did you not think that this decision would alienate part of your fanbase? If no, why not? If yes, why did you deem that acceptable?
It seems kind of a like it or lump it situation.
I don't know why my latest post are deleted. I'm not go agains anyone and i'm not disrespected anything... why make this?????
The question i made is why fm boxed version are not sold in Brazil in few days after uk release. :confused:
As the crux of the arguemnet for going to Steam only activation is to combat the real menace of software piracy then surely from a public realtions standpoint coming out with firm figures can only be a positive. If SEGA published verified data showing that illegally held copies of FM2011 had been logged in use on 25,540,590 times in the last 12 months then you would add weight to your reasons for taking the decisions that you have, albeit I still hold that your timing has been very poor.
Bet you're wishing you'd waiting until Monday to release this news.
Last edited by Barside; 16-09-2011 at 21:03.
if people knew what you were up against then maybe there wouldnt be so many complaints and objections.
I have been reading this thread for well over an hour now, so have had plenty of time to consider this announcement.
I was really looking forward to the release of FM12 this year, more so with these daily blogs that really made the game seem well worth purchasing.
Then I see today's announcement and I am very disappointed. I am torn as to whether I will be buying the game this year. On one hand I really want the game but on the other I really do NOT want to have to install steam on my laptop. I had steam a few years ago and found it annoying, mainly due to how pointless it really is when all I play is FM. Like many others have said, their customer service is appalling and why would I want to run this program, in the background, eating resources and automatically downloading updates when all I wanted was to play FM? I don't even allow my anti virus to automatically download updates! Why would I want steam doing this?!
Furthermore, as others have said, this, in my opinion, will have very little impact on piracy. The game will get hacked/cracked etc by people and within days and therefore surely defeats the objective of this exercise. I am baffled as to why such a risky move has been taken, which has clearly upset many of the loyal fanbase SI has spent years building up.
Recently the playstation network was hacked and Sony spent a good couple of months fixing and implementing new safety features to improve security. All the while, PS Customers could NOT use the online features. Now, lets say, Steam, a much smaller, lesser company than Sony, were to get hacked and became unusable, either temporarily or permanantly. This is not inconceivable. Now that would render this game unusable. So I have paid £25-£30 for a disc that is now unusable for a game that no longer can be played. Can you explain your thinking behind implenting such measures that could potentially cause so many problems?
Finally, in recent years, demo day and then release day have been riddled with problems about the game and or steam not working or certain problems occur. For example, the 3D match engine in 2009 didn't initially work with Intel graphics cards. Every year there are hundreds of threads on here with people unhappy with the fact the game isn't working. Throw steam into the equation and all of a sudden I forsee many more people having problems. Steam's customer service is at best, non existant, so how are SI going to manage dealing with so many unhappy customers on release date who have paid their hard earned cash and their game doesn't work ?
I know you guys at SI/Sega will non doubt be trying to allay people fears, and have a lot of people writing messages on here, but I really think you need to post a thorough and detailed post, answering as many of the questions as possible, because as it stands, it is the first time I am considering not getting the game, and I have played since CM2. Today has been a very sad day for FM in my opinion.
so are retailers going to tell everyone that comes up to their desk to ask if they have an internet connection before they buy the game so people who do not have internet connection dont get screwed when they take it home and try to install it and then see that they cant play it or return it, surely retailers are going to have to notify customers that fm has now gone this way, if i was running a game retail shop i know i would be telling people as they buy it so that they know instead of watching people get screwed.
Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr
You have clearly forgotten the 2008 release day debacle. Your line about not buying the game is pathetic by the way (only 1 step removed from "go play FIFA", "wens da demo owt" or "wot taktix werks") however I would like to say that I will buy the game on day one, I am looking forward to it that much however I am dreading the activation (due to the 2008 experience).
haha.. this made me laugh.. How was my line pathetic? You, and others, acting like spoilt little kids isnt pathetic? - And to be honest, your comparison of my "line" to those you suggest is just sad.. even for someone like you..
Maybe SI can assure us that the game will be labelled with a very large clear warning that internet access is required to play the game, rather than as a footnote in small print. Maybe SI can confirm 100% that the 2008 issues (we all know what caused them) cannot happen this year. Of course SI cannot do the latter because by involving activation like this they are leaving the back door unlocked to the kind of "Terrorists" that attacked the servers back then.
You cannot compare a situation 4 years ago to the FM12 situation.. 4 years is a lifetime in technology. And since Steam works flawlessly for most games I'd bet money on that the activation of FM will work flawlessly also.. - but yeah, ***** can happen unfortunately.
As for Steam, unless I completely Uninstall I get it popping up lots when I dont want it to (may be in part a Vista issue but Steam is the source of the problem, so here I am having to install 3rd party software I already cannot wait to completely remove again.
You can turn off all notification from Steam and also you can turn off all notifications from Vista (except if a restart is required..)
Yesterday I felt like an excited customer looking forward to 21/10/11, now I feel like a mug punter, to be honest.
Thats too bad..
"spoilt little kids....." - only spoilt little kids take that attitude.
"4 years" - was 3 years actually (2008 - FM2009) you do the math!
"*** happens"- it happens if you create a situation where it CAN happen.
"flawlessly for most games" - "most games"?, "all games" would have been more reassuring.
"too bad" - no comment.
To be fair you may well be right about the Steam / Vista issues that annoyed me but I never wanted to download Steam - that was the point. I have similar issues with itunes but that is not relevant to this post.
I appreciate that you do not see my point of view but common courtesy should be shown thank you. I do find it pathetic that someone comes to an SI Games web site and casually recommends that someone who owns every FM title should not buy the game just because you disagree with their point of view. A lot of Posters have claimed they will not buy the game this year - I did not. You may want to ponder for a moment longer before hitting those keys in future!.
You can't answer the question because you know that at best FM12 won't leak until the day of launch and the costly consultancy agency you used told you that pirates will be so desperate to play the game they will rush out and buy it rather than wait a day and get it for free. You know it won't make any difference, but you feel the need to seem like you are doing something to combat piracy .
The fact is : Steam is no more secure than something as simple as a CD key , you are inconveniencing a portion of your customer base to chase this fabled group of pirates that are actually just dying to pay for their games in the 1 day head start that Steam might give you.
Last edited by treble_yell_:-); 16-09-2011 at 21:10.
Clearly Steam activation is going to happen, so could SI offer some really good downloadable extra content that could pacify the doubters like myself?. Some really good skins or something else that appeals to the majority may be good. Frankly an online games room where you virtually jerk off about you achievements doesnt really do it for me. That has a very limited appeal to the adult gameplayer I suspect.
I do hope on 21st October I am pleasantly surprised by the activation process.
As long as I don't have to buy it through steam I can probably live with it, even if I don't like it.
Bought it on Steam last year and didn't any trouble at all - offline or not. I do think SI are being foolishly optimistic in thinking that this will curb piracy somehow. If anything, they've just alienated more of their paying customers.
I won't be purchasing FM2012 now due to the same reasons in your post. Starting to get used to the idea and may'be thinking it's a good thing - I mean how long do you continue playing FM for? It's a shame as if I'd known that FM2011 was going to be my last one then I might have taken a lot more time to do certain challenges etc with it.
As it is I took it off my PC earlier this evening - preparing myself for a life without FM..
Have to say I'm dissapointed in this news but not surprised considering an increasing number of PC Retail Games are using Steamworks, the only upside is that at least you aren't using GFWL.
Whilst Steam has improved over the years and has a fairly large following, I'm not a fan of Steamworks for Retail games when it's forced upon us for various reasons: (Downloading games through Steam is a different matter - it's my choice and I only buy the games when they are a bargain price in the sales).
- You need to ask permission to play the game each time, if Steam is down, or your internet is or Steam has a problem you are out of luck, and despite what people say the offline mode doesn't work 100% of the time. Imagine if FM2011 was linked to the SegaPass system?
- You cannot sell the game, lend it to a friend or give it away once you have linked the game to your Steam account - despite what people claim none of these are illegal in the UK provided you don't keep access yourself. I've sold loads of games I've finished with or haven't liked over the years and have even made a profit on occasions. If a game has Steamworks or similar I'll wait for the price to drop or wait to see if it's a good game before buying it. (Though this point doesn't apply for FM for me).
- As far as I'm aware Steam has no UK presence so if something happens to them or your account there go your games and you are left with no recourse. (Apart from a vague now deleted promise that Valve will free your games if they go bust).
A couple of questions:
Can you confirm that the game will only use Steamworks and nothing in addition, Arkham Asylum on Steam for example is a joke not only is it tied to your Steam account you need to log into GFWL to save the game and it also has limited activations.
Can you say why a Uniloc system wasn't considered (One off activation that can be revoked and used on X computers) I understand Uniloc are no longer around but there are a couple of alternatives (which to be fair have worst press than Steam) as I much prefer a system where licenses can be revoked.
Is there any chance that the game could be disassoicated from Steam after a set period of time, like the Uniloc acitvations were removed from FM2009?
Is it possible that the move to Steam could result in more and smaller patches (if they are required), some peoples worries with Steam's Automatic updates is you cannot roll back, being able to do hotfix's especially with the recent changes to how Steam patches would be a nice advantage.
Is it possible to say how many/percent of boxed copies of FM2011 were activated on Steam? For an idea of how many people activate online against using the disk.
Finally will FM2012 disappear from Steam a few days before release date in the UK as seems to be happening to most Steamworks games in the UK recently?
Still complaining are we? Can't get over the fact that Steam is a great platform and you should simply deal with it? If you don't like it, don't buy it.
Time to reconsider my purchase. I like paying money to support developers, I don't like paying money to support Steam. Hell, whether sales go up or down, suits will just blame piracy (even though Steam doesn't stop piracy).
Not really sure how much more can be said about this imo. At the end of the day, you are either going to buy it, or you are not. And if indeed it does turn out to be disaster (i suspect it will be fairly successful) then i'm sure they will look at other options for FM13, or at least i would hope they would look at other options
Why do people who like steam feel the need to make comments like this?
You are entitled to like steam but others are entitled to have their own opinion, even if this differs from yours (radical idea, I know), and shouldn't be forced down one path.
As for the 'dont like it dont buy it' thats going to be the tag line on the FM12 box isn't it?
Whoever deleted my post at least infract me to know what I did wrong.
The same happened with FM 2011 - bought it via steam for me and my friend while on business trip to France (had to change location to France). Though FM2011 became available through Steam for all former USSR territories (and IPs ) in about two weeks...
From what I've heard CD Projekt hasn't gone bankrupt yet even though they tried their best to succeed in that by releasing their game, The Witcher 2, without any copy protection. Oh and they even got sued by doing that from distributors...
Surely things aren't so grim for poor ol' Football Manager, no?
If i was to buy the disc version. Would i have to use steam in the background while playing it.
You should respect German law and the EA exclusive license in the same way people have to do so with the EULA on Sega games.
You lot already circumvent certain issues with the .LNC fix, which conveneinty allows certain things to happen - as if it's been programmed that if you change a few files that some names change - names that have issues with trademark issues and whatnot, weird that. Then you and your colleagues lecture people on how EULA should not be broken, lol.
I trust that the .LNC fix will be eradicated in FM2012 and beyond to respect holders' rights? I assume it be quite simple to do in the context of things.
Last edited by jpwild; 16-09-2011 at 22:15.
so what happens if steam disappears in 2 years and i want to play my FM12 then?? since i cant, will sega repay me??
also, i think it is time SI parted ways with sega who do nothing to add anything to the game and only take a % of the profits for doing nothing. surely SI would be more profitable without them taking a % of the profits. the fact that Sonic was the last good game produced by them says a lot.
Rather harsh on Sega as they do plenty of work with SI, in all honesty I doubt the title would exist if it wasn't for their support & as for Sonic they've produced plenty of excellent titles since they stopped producing consoles.
Why should a business not assume good faith from their customers? Treat us like customers, not dirt.
My view on DRM is that it needs to be non-invasive and only prevent casual piracy - if we need to make a significant effort in order to copy software illegally, then the average consumer won't bother. If it's a determined cracker, you're not going to stop them anyway. As a result, I don't believe there's anything wrong with protecting software in this way - but it needs to be non-invasive and almost invisible. This doesn't fall into this category.
It doesn't matter if X people pirate the game because it's an easy option. Why should it matter? It is not like you are going to get any money from these X people even if piracy didn't exist.
What matters is the 1000-X or 10000-X customers who might be willing to pay if you make it tempting enough. And clearly, the more that pirate your game, the more likely you have a group of people (X) who are willing to pay if circumstances change.
Piracy will always be the easy option. It takes pirates a few days (or hours nowadays, really) to crack a game, and it takes minutes for a pirate to install and play the game, without DRM (or Steam). You can make it difficult for the hackers to break it, but to the pirates, it's a matter of downloading a cracked executable. You can't make that hard. Besides, with Steam installation and activation, you've arguably made it harder than downloading a crack.
If there are customers out there who can afford the game but brag online about pirating it, then tough - do you really think you are going to make money out of them? Probably not! Since you are not going to make money off them, why waste your time on them? Yes, it is frustrating, but literally nothing can be done about it. FM12 will be too annoying for them to pirate, so they'll just ignore the game. If they pirate, Sega make £0 out of them. If they ignore the game, Sega make £0 out of them.
If you consider these customers as likely to convert to paying customers, there's an increase in revenues there. However, this has to outweigh the lost indirect revenues such as word-of-mouth, as well as lost goodwill (just look at this thread!), and many other factors.
ByteShield, SI's old DRM software, has a whitepaper here: http://www.byteshield.net/byteshield...paper_0005.pdf
Although ByteShield has a clear conflict of interest in this area, it's an intriguing read.
Evidence is largely inconclusive on the impact of "lost sales" (or indeed, "gained sales") due to piracy. What is clear, however, is that pirates buy more legal stuff, and there is a good argument that if you removed piracy, these pirates wouldn't buy the legal stuff.
And you don't have to wait for economies to grow. That girl who pirated FM and bragged about it on her Facebook profile - her 200 or so friends have now seen this update with Football Manager mentioned in it, and are suddenly aware of what it is. Sure, you might have lost this one girl, but you have gained 200 potential customers. In the spirit of "the more **** you throw at the wall, the more likely some will stick", you might get some customers out of this 200. If not, they pirate and it continues to spread. Some cannot be "saved" from a piracy point of view, but cut your losses, grit your teeth, and look at those who can. You might feel angry, but getting angry over someone who can't be saved is pointless. Use them to spread word-of-mouth, and look at the remaining 200.
You want word-of-mouth, and piracy is a convenient way of doing this.
- We can no longer sell the software on the second-hand market.
- We have an additional layer of red tape should something go wrong.
- Steam is another point of failure.
- If Steam goes bankrupt, it is not legally obliged to "unlock" software for their customers (in fact, they would probably be sued by the publishers if they tried).
- What about other distribution companies? Why just Steam? Is there a competition issue here?
- Steam is based in the US - will non-US customers have legal recourse if they feel some of their rights are violated?
- Security. Things are being hacked left-right-and-centre here. Why should we need to entrust Steam with additional details?
These are not unfounded worries and are brought up in pretty much every Steam debate. For some, these are important questions, although they are just perhaps in principle.
It is a burden to me, and a significant one. And it's one I'm used to somewhat - Civilization V and Total War: Shogun 2 are two games I'd love to play but cannot out of principle, because I feel Steam is DRM masquerading as non-DRM and curtails my rights in an unacceptable way. I trust SI and am willing to part with some of my rights in that EULA - but I have no reason to trust Steam. Yet Sega is claiming we "need" Steam. No - Sega need Steam. We don't.
I could understand if FM and Steam were so tightly-bound together, for example if SI took advantage of most of Steam's features including purchasing software, social networking, buddy lists and so on, meaning that there was a definite advantage for a user to have Steam too, but this is not the case. We know this because FM11 didn't need Steam, and nobody sees FM needing these features.
Probably the saddest thing is that we should have seen it coming once SI released a Steam-only skin for FM10 - the notion that Steam customers were more highly-valued than us DVD-inserting folk.
I'm not being able to prove a negative. So I'd like to pose you, or another Sega staff member, this question: For those of us who have always preferred DVD activation without Steam, what's in this change for us?
Please don't say there is no negative impact - those that fall in my position want to hear positive things about this impact. We don't give a rat's arse about piracy (well, I do, but I'm in the minority here), nor Sega corporate-talk - what's in it for me, your customer? Benefits. Tell us why it outweighs the concerns in (*) above.
And as an aside, I'm fairly disgusted but somewhat resigned to the fact you feel I a customer can't be trusted (the red bits above). I've spread word about your game. I've tweeted it several times, and have talked about it on other forums. I've bought your software. I've contributed to your forums. And you say I can't be trusted? Then you wonder why there is so much resentment towards DRM (and not just this instance).
x42bn6, very well said sir!!
x42bn6, amazing truly amazing
just a shame it'll get ignored. (not that it would have even been considered in the first place) the decision has already been made...
Steamworks games (Well Orange Box, Fallout: New Vegas and Deus Ex) have a couple of lines on the back saying you need to accept the Steam aggreement and activate online to play, slightly worrying is that they say you need to return the game unopened if you don't agree, but no link to the actual game EULA is provided just where you can read the generic Steam License. Returnability will depend on retailer, the actual EULA and your country.
Valve offer Steamworks for free and as far as I'm aware don't offer companies money to use Steamworks, though SEGA would save money by not paying for the DRM scheme or hosting costs of game/demo/patches etc...
Last edited by michaeltmurrayuk; 16-09-2011 at 22:57.
I've used Steam. I don't like it, online or offline. I found it unreliable, nothing to do with resource hogging or data mining.
My son uses it. He finds it unreliable but has a little more patience than me and will persevere more.
Some like the system, some don't; both sides have their reasons.
I don't want to only be able to play when Steam deem it ok. I don't want the other great benefits Steam allegedly bestows upon me as I have no need of buddy lists, ads for games I'll never buy or shallow achievement systems. I don't want my game auto-patching due to my internet cap and a personal preference of doing it at the end of a season.
I'll stick with the old games. As good as FM12 looks, it won't change my mind regarding Steam.
I planned to buy FM12 like I did with previous versions, but I think I'll pirate it this year so I won't have to deal with the steam hassle.
Devastated! Bought Fm off steam last year worst decision ever. When i boot it up with no internet it tries to update and basically no matter what won't go into offline mode!!! SO thought next year can't wait to buy the disc to not have to go through this again when travelling and now this but a real downer on all my excitement for this game
This is why we're going to provide as much customer care as we can in regards to FM and Steam. If you're having issues with offline mode, we'll be able to try and help. With offline, the best way to get it to work would be, for example with FM12, would be once the game is installed, set Steam to offline mode and set it to start in offline mode. Close Steam, disconnect from the Internet and launch the game. It should launch with no issues.
We want the choice, we want to choose whether to have a piece of software running that we have no other use for, and if the only way to choose against that software is to not buy the game... then I'll not buy the game
It is nice the way steam automatically updates FM, however you will need to provide excellent customer service to keep everyone happy as I have had my fair number of problems with steam. Just hope the time put into Helping people with steam doesn't take away from the development of the game
I work in customer service for a living and I am concerned that the response we seem to be getting from you guys is 'well if you don't like it, tough, coz that's what we are doing anyway...'
Doesn't seem to be great customer service, regardless of circumstances.
The only pop-up you get from Steam is the Deals Update that is shown when you close the game you are playing. And the deals they have are usually pretty darn good.
There was a very (imo) interesting post in the main forum and I was looking forward to sigames response to it. Unfortunately that post got deleted.
FWIW, I already have steam so this change shouldn't affect me, however I do sympathie with those who do not gave steam and do not wish to install it.
So, the new perception is "If you like FM, you MUST like Steam"?
Why you risk your own great reputation with the far lower profile one?
If you really want to attach your value with any anti-piracy software, why didn't you choose the best available or at least one that could match your own reputation..
I get the feeling another way this will impact sales is that for customers like me, who don't always fancy buying the 'yearly update' (yeah it's a cliche i know) would simply settle for playing older versions with updated databases. especially if the features aren't justifiable of another £30 anyway. FM11 is a great game and I increasingly dont see the need to rush out and download steam so i can play FM12... SI should be concentrating on the quality of the product itself, not just banking on that the same old suckers 'will buy it anyway and the people who dont like it can shove it'
Put it this way.
Decision has been made. They are letting you know.
Buy it or don't buy it. There's nothing they can do now. Deal is made.
Use Steam or don't play FM12.
Nobody can do anything.
Personally - I think a lot of people are overreacting to the Steam thing.
Well there you have it - years of being a loyal customer and buying every yearly update and then SI/Sega go and **** all over you - ****ing typical!
More and more pc games are either steamworked or required online activation these days, so this doesnt really affects me.
Currently Active Users
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Most users ever online was 8,587, 14-11-2008 at 17:07.http://n4g.com/news/262918/fm09-rele...cobsons-careerFM09 release 'hardest' day of Jacobson's career
I wonder if 21st October 2011 might surpass both Miles' "hardest day of his career" and the number of people online record... wotcha reckon?
wow 8 pages now, im sure SI and SEGA were well aware of the outcry this would cause, but i am also sure they have looked at the figures and are confident this will work out for them. Theres not much else to be said, this will happen for FM12 no doubting that, if its succesful it will carry on, if not they will look at it again. I actually do understand some of the concerns, apart from the resource and privacy issues, they are nonsense, i personally have never had a steam issue or a problem using it offline but if people do have issues then this could really work against SI, they shouldnt really be having to worry about spending any time or resources on steam.
There was outcry when they first introduced DMR, and these things will never be everyone's cup of tea, but sadly because of piracy, which despite what anyone says is theft, this is the way things will go, in a few years time i can see most games on most formats being sold this way.
The more I read these repsonses (not directed at anyone) the more I have to say people are overreacting.
It's not hard to install Steam. It's not a memory hog. It won't slow down your computer. It won't do anything malicious, like mine data, or sell your soul.
It will allow you to activate FM 12
And that's all it is an activation. It takes 2 minutes after installing the game. After that pop it into offline mode - there you go.
I literally much ado about nothing.
Im in the bracket that Im not really fussed with this change
Nearly spat my beer out at the post on a previous page with a poster stating they had no access to the internet whilst posting on an online forum
I get the impression that there are people within SI who are sympathetic towards the no to Steam group but for obvious corporate reason their hands are tied on this issue. I'm basing this one the tone of some of the post that I've read & the fact the the likes of Neil are still posting at this late hour on a Friday & this leads on to the customer service point, how many companies can you think off that would have key employees communicating with their consumer base in this way?
I believe people do not fully understand what true customer srevice is, what it isn't is bending over backwards to change a situation that cannot be changed to suit the needs of a minority, for those that have not been paying attention I am part of that minority who do not want a 100% Steam activation system.
Last edited by Barside; 16-09-2011 at 23:28.
And while I may be in a minority in experiencing this particular problem, the minority of those who are anti-Steam for other reasons is larger and very much unhappy.
Ultimately nothing will change SI or Sega's stance, it's just unfortunate this has been announced so late and with no alternative.
let's face it, there are people here that don't like this steam activation but if the game was groundbreaking enough or had an amazing new feature (perhaps a new hat?) then they would still buy it anyway...
just thinking out loud. i know i'd rather just update FM11 with a better database than buy FM12 at this moment in time as FM12 doesn't offer me something that would make me bite the bullet and conform to the steam masses