We've never once said that we believe Steam will stop piracy altogether just that it's believed that, of all the options available, it offers the best possible service for activation/DRM this year and that it will dramatically help reduce the number of people who pirate the game. Not stop it completely, of course - we're not naive, but that it would reduce piracy more than any alternative investigated would.
We also believe that with the improvements that Steam have made over recent months and years it offers a really good customer experience and only improves the experience of playing Football Manager for those that wish to play it in online mode. We wouldn't have done it otherwise. Those who don't wish to use Steam after activation only have to activate once and leave it in offline mode from then on. It doesn't use much resources and quietly sits there minding it's own business until you want to use it online.
We've also never said that we think a pirated game equals a lost sale. What we've said is IF 25% of those who pirated the game bought it, we believe our world wide sales figures would double. We're not saying that's going to happen (although it would be great if it did) all we're trying to do is highlight the problem that piracy brings to Football Manager and tell you the reasons why we're trying to battle it.
1 pirated game might not equal 1 lost sale, but surely you must accept that IF the game wasn't piratable (is that a word?) the game would sell more? Of course it would, that's just common sense.
More sales = more more money invested into SI as a studio which = a better game for the honest people who buy the game legally each year. That is our honest motivation behind all of this, if you can't believe or accept that then I'm sorry, there's not much more I can say.
For you guys who think a online activation is bad your lucky you don't play Settlers 7, that needs a constant internet connection (always-online DRM system) even for single player games and if UBI servers are down you simply can't play the game. And for the first few months after release it was quite common.
For those of you who have not used or dont like Steam, well I think that will change becouse it is taking over in every way shape and form. I have been using it for about 7 years now and wouldn't want it any other way.
That said I still think there is a 50/50 chance you will see FM12 on torrent even before it hits stores...... sadly.
b) I want to play FM without having to load up and leave background programs running.
c) I wouldn't need customer service if I just installed the game from the CD like in previous years.
d) I'm not that lazy, can quite easily download the patch and update it myself.
e) I'll take the in game achievements of winning the league etc over Steam achievements that mean nothing to me at all.
Oh no this is totally unacceptable...i think...
I use the library for internet like now. I don't have it at home. Does that mean there is no point in me purchasing FM12?
Surely this is going to lead more people to getting the pirated version. There are already many Steam only games that are pirated. I just dont understand this reasoning.
Of course I can see it from their point of view. They get:
- a game that's more difficult to pirate
- a game that it's easier to distribute worldwide
- patches that only need building and testing for one delivery method
- the ability to see exactly how a huge proportion of their users play the game (the majority won't bother to turn data collection off)
So how do I, the customer, benefit?
Personally can't imagine not using Steam for FM. So much easier this way.
I cannot belive how many people do not have the net!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
as with the claim from si that the game is pirated to a ridiculous factor (which clearly it is) and people say 'no its not' the claim I am making is that this decision EXCLUDES the many that are not really bothered for their pc and especially not third party software; many do not have the pc power or the inclination to want steam, they just play FM!
They have been left in the wayside (and there are a lot more of them than you think) because some morons (pirates) decided to not be part of the community and team FM think they should have Rockstar games finances.....oh wait as I understand it they do, Everton certainly think so.
if I can launch it from the desktop without steam being part of it i am in, if not well its a matter for the pc competition gods.
Serious question, surely someone in your office must be aware there are more secure methods of piracy protection. Nobody is disputing that if a game is harder to crack then the likelihood is that the people who want to play the game will need to buy it, but going through steam is easier than having to get a NO-CD executable back in the day.
For the record i use steam a lot for online games, it's a good program for online games, but as previously stated, the games which have less piracy are the ones with verification and anti-piracy methods in addition to getting through the steam login.
EDIT: To make it clearer, i'm sure people wouldn't complain if it was a viable method of stopping piracy, but it isn't.
Last edited by moon_goat; 16-09-2011 at 18:27. Reason: lol
Bertie, I really do appreciate that you're still on here posting on a Friday evening, to be honest I do think you should get down the pub & sink a few.
To address your post I do hope that the numbers that you (SI/SEGA) came up with Cleary showed that the use of Steam would offer significant advantages over other authentication methods but as I've eluded to I fear your efforts will be for nought. We've already seen people freely admit to exploiting the last authentication system to allow a 2nd person to play the game without purchase which in my mind indicates that the fight against piracy will never be won & TBH you will not significantly reduce the number of illegal copies in use or conversely significantly increase your unit sales.
I sincerely hope that an alternative method will be considered for future version or that SEGA would consider investing some of its vast resources into researching improved security measures that can be included in the game code that renders non-authentic copies unplayable therefore eliminating the need for the support of a third party who themselves could become a target for the publicity junkies that have plagued countless firms over recent years.
Last edited by Barside; 16-09-2011 at 18:33. Reason: Spell-checking
Anyway, i said earlier but i'll say it again. There's actually 3 main reasons for me.
1) Steam loads the game faster,ime.
2) Patching the game is ALOT easier, all you have to do is click a button not go to some link and hope it works, i remember being frustrated by this in the past and stuff not working properly.
3) My games no longer get corrupted AT ALL. Only had one problem recently with a game getting (almost)corrupted and got it sorted. My games were never this secure without steam, so can only put it down to that.
thanks for the response, I certainly agree that several downloads can be equated to a lost sale.
Are you going to address the notorious unreliability of Steam's 'offline mode'. It's fairly disingenous to repeatedly say "you can just pop it in offline mode straight after activating if you want", because someone playing in offline mode is far more likely to experience technical problems than someone playing in 'normal' steam, and mixing and matching the two frequently makes things worse.
I've had my say about Steam already - and I'm not going to add to that.
Some of the methods used to activate the game in the past have not gone down too well. San Marino in the European Championship final on pirated versions (and some non-pirated it seemed), activation servers being hacked etc.
It is inevitable that pirating is here to stay and I doubt it will ever disappear.
Perhaps what SI could do is try their best to persuade those who are not using a legitimate version of the game to purchase it through the game itself. It should be easy to program this in if Steam has not run the game.
Not everyone will pay but there are those out there who will take the decision to do so if they think it's a good enough game to warrant the money.
1- steam doesnt load the game faster. it takes 5-10 seconds for steam to start even when offline.
2-patching the game with steam is not easier, you have to go online mode, which takes more time than just coming here and Dling a torrent
3- the chance of a game getting corrupted is the same if you use steam or not. there is no magical guardians watching over the files in the stream folder.
My biggest criticism of Steam is that I keep people saying they lost access to their games, then others countering with "I lost access to my games but it was sorted within a few hours. Great customer service from Steam" (obviously paraphrased) - to lose access to a game I've purchased due to third party for ANY length of time is completely unacceptable! Steam users seem grateful that Steam resolves issues reasonably quickly where they're issues completely generated by Steam itself. I find it bizarre.
i play exclusively on a laptop. When you download steam and then activate your FM game, you can turn off the steam and play in offline mode and the game plays the same. I dont have to turn on Steam to play the game. It will automatically turn on when you start the game. The Steam application will recognize that it cant connect to the internet but cause you have played a game connected to the intenet and saved previously, you dont have to be connected to Steam to continue playing the game. I travel alot and sometimes dont have Internet access where i am and play just fine!!!!
Stop worrying about Steam all of you!!!!!
2) Why are you so willing to accept poor programming? For the amount of resources Saga have all of the major bugs should be ironed out . Yes i work as a developer and know that patches are necessary, but wouldnt you hope for a playable game out of a box (digital download)
3) The game has never corrupted for me? Do you use 3rd party application to modify saves ?
I really hate that its being forced on a user this way. If there are enough valid reasons to use it will, but if we go down this route. I might as well send my pc to Saga, let them install all the crap they want to play the game. First its steam, next is itunes to play sounds, google search to search for players in the game etc..
cant stand steam. looks like i will not be buying fm this year. fm11 for at least another year for me then
I liked Unilock
(apart from on release day)
We release the game on a disk to give consumers a choice of how to purchase it. You may not have a credit card for example. You may be not old enough to have a credit card, so you can go to the shop and pay in cash, rather than force you to buy online.
We believe that the vast vast majority of people will be able to connect to the internet to activate the game. They don;t have to after that.
And it is a fact that more people play a pirated version of FM every year than buy it. I've seen the stats. It's a far worse situation than many think. Please believe us when we say we've looked into whether we need to protect the game, what the benefits of each system are, how much they **** off the genuine buyer, and whether we should do this or not. It's been a process thats taken a few years, as I posted this time last year. We think we have a system now that will help protect the game and won't be unacceptable to the vast majority of our players. There are hoops to jump through, but we believe they are small and give some benefit as well. Some people will not want Steam, end of story. I respect that decision, and I'm sorry if you then don't get to play FM12. We think that most people, the vast majority, will find Steam no problem at all and will enjoy playing FM12 with it.
I'm really not happy about this either. I've used Steam once before, I didn't like it and I deleted it. Now I have to use it if I want to play FM12.
I'm still basing my opinion on the game on the demo (assuming there still is one). If I like the game, I'll buy it. If not, I won't. But if I end up buying it and have any problems with Steam, I definitely won't be buying any more in the future as long as this remains the only method.
Also, sorry if it's already been addressed, but how will patches work with Steam? In the past, there have been some patches I've downloaded and felt made the game worse, so I went back to a previous patch. Will I still be able to do this?
Another thing SI could do is design their own launcher, that way people can choose between SI's and Steam.
Last edited by magicmastermind124; 16-09-2011 at 18:48.
I think you can choose which patch. Not sure.
I've only read the first couple of pages so it has likely been covered, but does using Steam still mean the user has no choice in which patch he/she uses, and can't revert back to a previous patch if desired?
EDIT - never mind, just read about five posts up.
A hackers always won in the past and this will be also in the future...
I haven't any problem with buying the original cd, but I haven't trust in the steam. I guess it will cause many problems...
The pirates did a good advertisments for SEGA on many forums and now will be only a few players with original cd = less informations on the web.
I am curious about the gains from the sale after this measures
The only question I have is will Steam be able to cope with the demand in activation on release day? I remember before the sheer demand to activate took steam's servers down.
Personally I like this way of activation. You only need to use an internet connection once to activate, after that it will run as you expect without any issues.
nah you cant, if you download the game now you can only play on the newest patch, you can only choose not to update the original game if you buy it when it comes out any downloads after the patches are released will have the newest patch on the game.
I get the feeling Steam and apps like it are the future folks, so if i may be blunt, get used to it.
EA have Origins which imo will require their games to use in the future (I'm pretty sure BF3 will require it and i expect more of their future games to also). Some games require you to use Games for Windows Live, and if the Win8 talk is true it will be rebranded to Xbox Live (which is what it is anyway) and be packaged into Win8. And then Steam has won many fans and has very few drawbacks.
Maybe its just me, but i see a future of apps like these for PC gaming.
not happy about having to use steam to activate the game as I feel that it is an awful programme and had nothing but problems with it the last time in regards to updates and getting on the game.
over 6 pages and not bothered to read through them to see if this has been stated.
This link with steam has nothing to do with stopping piracy.... just a corporate link up to bring us advertising drivel while we play the game...
Was really looking forward to FM12, but now.....not so much.
Haven't decided yet, whether to get it or not, but leaning towards not getting it.
I just don't want my copy of FM to have anything to do with Steam.
One little (other) thing that made me a bit curious; 2 brothers sharing one copy. Installed on 2 different computers. Is technically (maybe even literally) not allowed.
But 2 people one computer, in a hotseat game, is ok.
How come one is a potentially lost sale (i guess that's why all those tiny little details are there for, to prevent lost sales), and the other not? I don't get the logic.
If the hotseat game is "not allowed" anymore, then it's changed at some point, and me not being aware of it
Finally...it feels like, to me, that continuing to fight piracy by limiting legal owners/gamers of the game, is just going to add fuel to the fire.
You're actually letting the pirates win. That's just what i feel about it, without putting too much thought into it.
OK, apologies if there is some repetition of earlier themes here but I want to ask 3 questions. Answerable by SI or anyone else who can provide clarification.
1. If I don't have an internet connection, how do you propose I play FM12?
2. If I buy FM12 as a Christmas stocking filler for my two or more children, nephews/nieces etc, can they play it within the same household on different computers i.e. their own laptops/PC's etc?
3. Can I give my copy of FM12 to someone else e.g. a friend, relative, charity shop and expect that they will be able to play it?
Thanks in advance.
Good point. If the money reverse in a better game for the fans, with all the features everone claims year after year and we don't saw in the previous versions of FM, it's a good decision. We want to have a complete game, with all the excelence FM Series have. But i'm affraid that SI and Sega fails in this "war against warez" like other companies fails year by year.
One copy of the game can only be linked to one Steam account and played on one PC at any single time.2. If I buy FM12 as a Christmas stocking filler for my two or more children, nephews/nieces etc, can they play it within the same household on different computers i.e. their own laptops/PC's etc?
No.3. Can I give my copy of FM12 to someone else e.g. a friend, relative, charity shop and expect that they will be able to play it?
SI R.I.P this is the end
your going to lose far more sales this way ..
piracy you just dont understand it at all ....
If iv downloaded a pirate copy of a game and didnt like it ...i then would not buy the game ...
But on the other hand if i liked it , I WOULD THEN go out and buy it ...
the best way to beat piracy is a good game ...
it works just the same as downloading music or a moive .. if i liked it i would buy it
For that matter, the Steam requirement makes me seriously reconsider my decision to buy the game.
In that case, I'm too conservative for my own good, I want a playable disc out of the box with no need to internet access or registration.
Simply because they don't want to see what the other one is doing. Stupid example, perhaps. But it's a reality for some.
But i'm pretty sure you know what i mean by it. Not trying to nitpick everything....but you know
The idea behind those regulations i get. But it's extremely flawed when it comes to the practical use of it.
Pretty much like the current "fight against piracy" thingy, going on. It's just adding fuel to the fire, for those without Steam.
No problem for me, bought the last 2 FMs through Steam. I hope it pays off, as a bigger budget for FM from more sales would hopefully mean more features in future releases.
I guess I shouldnt worry about not having the internet at home. I wont buy the game this year. First time since CM01/02 that I havent bought the game.
SI or SEGA - there are still many people who dont have the internet at home. Could you please offer us a way of playing the game if we purchase it.
I really don't see "I should be able to give my mate my DVD so we can both play and he doesn't have to buy it" as a valid point tbh.
Just had a thought relating to an earlier reply.
Someone posted about being able to play the game in Germany as FM is blocked on steam when accessed from a German ISP so I was wondering if SI have considered a work around for any FM gamers who are based in Germany.
We (UK) still have a sizeable military presence, granted the numbers are nowhere near as large as when I lived out there but I'd still say there would be a reasonable number of potential customers who have just been wiped of the sales charts plus all the other residents in Germany who may have acquired the game though friends or relatives overseas will now be left with the choice of FIFAManager or a pirated copy of FM.
Does this decision impact on any other markerts that SI are excluded from due to licensing &/or other legal issues and I wonder if these markets already show a disproportionately high number of illegal copies in circulation
Last edited by Barside; 16-09-2011 at 19:35.
This series is heavily-pirated, partly because it is so awesome. However, pirates spread word-of-mouth too. In poorer nations, piracy will be close to 100% but then again, once that nation starts developing, or the game becomes really tempting, some of that percentage will turn into paying customers. You could not do that if piracy didn't exist.
If you like, you will get more direct benefits, but less indirect benefits.
Plus, there is the awkward area where pirates actually buy more. Stamp out piracy and you stamp out these customers.
There are some pirates whom you will never make money off - those aren't of your concern. Your concern is those who might buy but don't for whatever reasonable reason. Those people may pay you in the future. Not those who will never buy.
If your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 1000 times, there is no difference to your direct bottom line if your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 10000 times. The piracy rate is a bit of a misnomer. If your piracy rate is high, all it means is that you have more potential future customers to tap into - that's it.
Look at that!
Sure, most people might not mind... But it's the customers you've lost that surely matter.
Like I said, this will be a pyrrhic victory in your fight for piracy, and don't be surprised if your bottom line is impacted by it. Piracy rate is just one of those mildly interesting KPIs that organisations love to optimise, but the bottom line is what truly matters.
I am a developer, and I have developed software before. I've seen it pirated before. I've released digital work under copyright and seen it misused without my permission before. You feel indignation, anger and annoyance when you see this - how dare this person take my work and use them for free, perhaps to his or her own benefit! However, I took a step back and thought about it - they used my work because they thought it was fun, useful or exciting for them. It helped them in some way. Then I think that there could be loads more people out there who appreciate my work, and that is the market I need to aim for. People will always pirate my work - but it is those who appreciate it and reuse it with permission who really mean something to me. I treat these people as "trialists" who can be converted into customers. It's where you realise that you feel indignation, anger and annoyance due to a loss of control, not a financial loss. I put my heart and soul into that piece of work, and someone misuses it - that effort feels for nothing. Yet I know that that person is only helping me become more known indirectly - I may benefit from it further down the line.
What I really need to care about is keeping my existing customer-base, and growing it.
You cannot stop piracy by making piracy more tempting. Reducing choice does exactly that - it drives people to pirate, where they can get a piece of software with less of a burden.
Piracy needs to be treated more as an overhead and an opportunity rather than a slammed-shut door.
Photoshop is an example. I'd guess most copies of Photoshop are pirated nowadays, and have been for a while. However, the kid that gets his or her hands grubby with a pirated version of Photoshop and falls in love with it is likely to become a paying licensee when he or she graduates from University with an Art degree into the media industry. All this means is that Photoshop has found a potential market for budding art students, and that if it can make its software so awesome and value-for-money that young students start using it, the company benefits in the long run.
Look at this: http://piracy.ssrc.org/adobe-logic/
Bill Gates has spoke on getting China drunk on Microsoft software (pirated, of course), so that when China's economy grows, Microsoft essentially locks-in and silos the Chinese into Microsoft products, benefiting them in the long run. Windows and Office are pirated heavily, but the last thing Microsoft wants to do is come down hard on it right now.
Spread your seeds, and wait for them to blossom.
I must stress that I believe piracy is wrong, since it is against the law in many countries - but there are ways to tackle piracy that are perhaps not that logical at first. One example is legalising drugs - for some, there might be incredulous gasps, but if you think about it, it's not the most idiotic suggestion in the world (i.e. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...isation-report - although I know this is controversial in itself).
Last edited by x42bn6; 16-09-2011 at 19:53.
Practically it might not work at all. Not enough room around the computer, don't want to see what the other one is doing......those sort of things.
But it wasn't a worry, or a real point at all. Was just a little thought.
1. Very disappointed with SI and SEGA with this because it forces people to have an internet connection. I know most people have one, but not everyone can afford to maintain one or has access to internet if they're in a rural area. This prevents them from playing the game even when they've purchased it, or have received it as a gift. This is economic discrimination.
2. This is absurd. Yes, I saw Neil Brock's earlier post that this is the legal position. The legal position is absurd and it is unethical and shameful that SI and SEGA are exploiting this to the maximum. Are we seriously saying that Mum and Dad have to buy two or more copies for their kids? Have the folk at SI and SEGA not twigged that this disproportionately affects those on lower incomes, especially in these times of rising unemployment, real wage deflation and austerity measures?
As with all things, there is a balance between a firm protecting its property rights, and acting in a socially responsible manner. This crosses an ethical line IMO in pursuit of profit. I'm disgusted at this.
3. I'm pleased to hear that is the case as purchasing a game should mean that, as with anything else, you own it. This is called property rights. Though I fear that the next step will be that we can't decide to sell or give away our own property and will become licensers rather than owners. More power to the big firms, less power to the little folk.
I posted on the poll thread that I'd give serious consideration as to whether I'd buy FM12 or not. I've now reached a conclusion, unless SI and SEGA reverse this policy, I won't be buying any more games from them, because this is a matter of principle.
To the people who don't understand the fuss. I understand you like Steam. I did, when I had a choice as to whether to use it or not. But this is the issue, its a choice. Now, SI have taken that choice away from us.
Have SI considered the possible loss of data feedback due to the amount of customers electing to play in offline mode?
How much consideration was given to the timing of the release of this decision? And to whom do I address this copy of the Alastair Campbell award?
can i install steam in a internet cafe and transfer it to my laptop via a usb stick.i don't have internet on my laptop.