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Thread: A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

  1. #201
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    That's what I meant Ackter, damn my useless command of the English language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazaru5 View Post
    I've installed Steam, in the past, for FM09... (as I keep saying, only game and all that...) and it is because I've used it in the past that I won't use it again!
    Mind expanding on why rather than just moaning?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazaru5 View Post
    I've installed Steam, in the past, for FM09... (as I keep saying, only game and all that...) and it is because I've used it in the past that I won't use it again!

    If we could play FM12 without Steam I'd quite happily pay double what you monkeys that will buy it with Steam, it's not about piracy to me, it's about being forced to use something I don't like nor want to use despite me paying hard-earned cash for it! I should have the choice... the only choice I have is install steam and play the game or don't install steam and don't play the game... it will be the latter
    You don't have to buy it with Steam! You just have to activate it with Steam. You can buy it in the shop. Once installed, turn Steam to offline mode. You won't get any further notices or updates. It will sit there quietly.

    Start FM - quit out of Steam. Once FM is up and running no need to have Steam open or running.


    You have not yet said why you won't install it? What bad experience did you have with FM09 and why won't you use it again???


    Steam is FREE. It does nothing to your user experience. Except a 2 minute download. A 1 minute install. Bang you can play FM12.

    Quit Steam once FM12 is running.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matty_efc View Post
    You use itunes at all? Or do you refuse to use that because you don't like onions?
    Steam is great, if you have a PC good enough to run FM then the small usage of Steam wont affect it. It's never been intrusive for me, what is everyone's problem?
    Would you use itunes to play just one song is more the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    Yes, but people new to Steam need to be aware of a) there is the potential of having accounts hacked and being unrecoverable (the same as any other online service) and b) that steam does not have a customer support system that would be deemed appropriate in most EU countries.
    The only way your account can be hacked is out of your own stupidity. The only hacked accounts are ones of unintelligent people who can't look out for themselves. When somebody messages you

    Free games! Just log into steamhacksite.com/dirt3 and they'll be on your account in a jiffy!
    are you really going to fall for that? If you answered no to that question you won't be hacked. With the new Steam Guard feature, it's basically impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    Yes, but people new to Steam need to be aware of a) there is the potential of having accounts hacked and being unrecoverable (the same as any other online service) and b) that steam does not have a customer support system that would be deemed appropriate in most EU countries.
    If your not aware in today's age that anything you do online can be hacked then your living in another universe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    I'll bookmark this thread & post the first FM12 torrent link when it becomes available, £5 says I find one before the game can be activated on Steam.
    A whole fiver? now THATS confidence

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    But is it also a step towards moving the game to a solely digital release in the future?
    That's not the motivation behind this, whatever the conspiracy theorist in you might like you to think. The motivation is combating piracy, pure and simple and this is felt to be a step forward in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    I'll bookmark this thread & post the first FM12 torrent link when it becomes available, £5 says I find one before the game can be activated on Steam.
    As Ackter said, you'd be banned if you did. Do let us know of any possible illegal copies of the game at piracy (at) sigames.com though. Would be greatly appreciated.

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    There is some real bizarre logic in this thread. Simply put we're running with Steam for this release. If you don't like it, we're sorry but it's not going to change for this release. If you don't want to buy the game simply because you don't want to have to use Steam then you won't buy the game. I don't know why some people are arguing over the fact they're not going to buy the game? Either you are or you aren't, there's not much we can do about that other than reassure you that we feel Steam is the best choice for Football Manager.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    If your not aware in today's age that anything you do online can be hacked then your living in another universe.
    It doesn't occur to people though. And @Dune - if you think that's the only way Steam accounts get hacked then..I don't know where to start to be honest. Yes, it's usually the customers own fault, but the customer is not going to see it like that.

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    yes u will guaranteed,it will be just as easy as any other year to crack this game,pirates will never stop.deus x was oirated on bit torrent before it hit the shops.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    you cant use an Ipod unless you have the internet and use Itunes, i dont see anyone kicking up a huge fuss over that.
    Those two products come hand in hand though and people who aren't happy don't have an Ipod.

    The problem with FM/Steam is that Steam is not a SI product nor even a Sega product and forcing a third party piece of software onto a consumer will only have a negative effect.

    One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that Steam will also force people to play with the latest patch with no option of rolling back to a previous version. Not that this would bother me but just looking at the forums I can also see this being another issue for many users.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevie_G_32201 View Post
    A whole fiver? now THATS confidence
    I've recently been made redundant so until I find a new job a fiver is about as good as it gets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tacticalmaster View Post
    you will never stop piracy,steam wont stop it,there will be a crack on the internet in the first week that the game is out.you wont need to activate it then.so why use steam its not going to stop the f k r s who do this.
    However, if we find a solution that we think helps combat piracy, which is a huge issue for both SEGA & SI then we are obliged to use this. Honestly, other developers and publishers have been put out of business due to piracy and from a moral stance, and to ensure that future versions of FM happen, this was a decision that was made after a lot of consideration. Combatting piracy is the sole reason for activation being required on FM12, and whilst we know it's not 100% effective, it's the most suitable and best method available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    It doesn't occur to people though. And @Dune - if you think that's the only way Steam accounts get hacked then..I don't know where to start to be honest. Yes, it's usually the customers own fault, but the customer is not going to see it like that.
    Nowadays it actually is. If you read the steam forums at all you'll know that the only real scams are from messages like that. I haven't seen a Steam keylogger or fake email in ages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View Post
    There is some real bizarre logic in this thread. Simply put we're running with Steam for this release. If you don't like it, we're sorry but it's not going to change for this release. If you don't want to buy the game simply because you don't want to have to use Steam then you won't buy the game. I don't know why some people are arguing over the fact they're not going to buy the game? Either you are or you aren't, there's not much we can do about that other than reassure you that we feel Steam is the best choice for Football Manager.
    It is quite funny how things like Steam (and DRM in general) bring out some really extreme opinions

    Fwiw, because I sense that some of the people here are about to virtually lynch me - I will be buying the game regardless of Steam. I'll just be very pissy when it won't let me play it for a day, or an hour or a few minutes - because even that is an inconvenience that I really shouldn't have to deal with, as pithy as that is over playing a game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    Yes, but people new to Steam need to be aware of a) there is the potential of having accounts hacked and being unrecoverable (the same as any other online service) and b) that steam does not have a customer support system that would be deemed appropriate in most EU countries.
    I agree on the accounts hacked, but to be honest no one I know has had this happened.. and I know ALOT of people that use steam.. so I guess it is quite rare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar2010 View Post
    One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that Steam will also force people to play with the latest patch with no option of rolling back to a previous version. Not that this would bother me but just looking at the forums I can also see this being another issue for many users.
    Never thought of that. There have been quite a few times with past versions where I've felt the need to roll back on the patches. Won't be an option with Steam. What if there's a bug in a patch which causes the game not to function properly on some people's machines? It'll be unplayable until/if it gets fixed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    Nowadays it actually is. If you read the steam forums at all you'll know that the only real scams are from messages like that. I haven't seen a Steam keylogger or fake email in ages.
    There is no specific "Steam keylogger". The majority of any online service hacks come from insecure email accounts. I don't get why you think they are the only scams because they are the only ones that people see on the forums? They are the least effective but easiest way of hacking, which is why there are so many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertie BG View Post
    As Ackter said, you'd be banned if you did. Do let us know of any possible illegal copies of the game at piracy (at) sigames.com though. Would be greatly appreciated.
    I have never done so in the past as TBH I have had no cause to go anywhere near the sites that would have cracked copies but in the interest of trying to prove that Steam only activation does not reduce the hacker market I will be more than happy to email SI.

    Hopefully a solution that will please all legitimate users of the game will be considered over the next 12 months, I'm sure there is an innovate option out there.

    Anyway I really should be getting back to my FM11 save.
    Last edited by Barside; 16-09-2011 at 16:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    How, exactly? Windows Defender is not only part of the OS itself, but it is optional. Steam is not part of the FM application and it is not optional. So really, it's nothing like buying a PC.
    When the Defender was first introduced and people found that it was constantly asking permission before using programs, the amount of annoyance and uproar was easily the same/more as what is in this thread. Even by turning the Defender off it still was being turned back on by updates or "randomness" by the OS because it had been designed to BE USED WITH the Defender. The Defender is not a core aspect of Windows until it was introduced as an additional component. While Steam is not made by SI/SEGA, it is now an intrinsic part of FM 2012's usage so the parallels are easily seen. If SI/SEGA decide to continue with using Stream over the next few versions then any issues can/will be worked out between the two companies. You buy product A and you are required to have (a free) product B in order to use it. Microsoft has done it down the years just to push their products while this decision is an actual attempt to avoid piracy/illegal activities.

    Oh, and just to remind people. If the piracy escalates beyond a certain point, it would become financially viable to not actually make any more FM games. Like I've said before, I might not be happy with this arrangement but if it keeps FM going then I'll suck it up and accept that I can't get what I want every time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazaru5 View Post
    Ok, I'll install Steam the day they make it Open Source, deal?
    Hmm.. sounds like a unfair deal to me as Steam will never become open source.. - how about you install it if they give you some special deal with FM2012 for £10? and I'll uninstall it if I dont win CL with a danish club before you install steam! Deal?

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    Whats all this about steam accounts being hacked? Never heard of any problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    There is no specific "Steam keylogger". The majority of any online service hacks come from insecure email accounts. I don't get why you think they are the only scams because they are the only ones that people see on the forums? They are the least effective but easiest way of hacking, which is why there are so many.
    Hacking email accounts for the sole purpose of Steam isn't very common.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    It doesn't occur to people though. And @Dune - if you think that's the only way Steam accounts get hacked then..I don't know where to start to be honest. Yes, it's usually the customers own fault, but the customer is not going to see it like that.
    anyone who doesnt know they can be hacked should not be on the net, they will be a danger to themselves and to their privacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Football_Manager08 View Post
    This is not anti piracy measures at all though. Steam games can be cracked very easily (for example.. CSS and newer games such as Red Orchestra) - same as any other game.

    I myself personally, have around 30 games or so on Steam, including FM2011, and am fine with the move. But there are consequences for the average consumer when taking this decision.

    Edit: I would personally make the game a GFWL game. Let people have Xbox Live achievements - just this will get people to buy it. It will also open the game up to different markets. Yes, GFWL games can be played even without a cd key - but this is same with any other game.
    Games For Windows Live is absolutely horrible compared to Steam. I would prefer the game didn't use Steam (the only thing I like about Steam is the auto patching, and even that is a double edged sword at times), but GfWL is much much worse :mad:.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanNUFC View Post
    Whats all this about steam accounts being hacked? Never heard of any problems.
    I know of a couple of people it's happened to and they had to come to these forums for answers because Steam customer service weren't replying to emails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertie BG View Post
    <br>
    As Ackter said, you'd be banned if you did. Do let us know of any possible illegal copies of the game at piracy (at) sigames.com though. Would be greatly appreciated.
    I have never done so in the past as TBH I have had no cause to go anywhere near the sites that would have cracked copies but in the interest of trying to prove that Steam only activation does not reduce the hacker market I will be more than happy to email SI. Hopefully a solution that will please all legitimate users of the game will be considered over the next 12 months, I'm sure there is an innovate option out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View Post
    There is some real bizarre logic in this thread. Simply put we're running with Steam for this release. If you don't like it, we're sorry but it's not going to change for this release. If you don't want to buy the game simply because you don't want to have to use Steam then you won't buy the game. I don't know why some people are arguing over the fact they're not going to buy the game? Either you are or you aren't, there's not much we can do about that other than reassure you that we feel Steam is the best choice for Football Manager.
    Because, Neil, some of these people are sitting with tinfoil hats on as they post here.

    It might have been best to not say anything and have Steam install when you install the game, then run in the background. I don't think anyone who is afraid of Steam would have noticed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    anyone who doesnt know they can be hacked should not be on the net, they will be a danger to themselves and to their privacy.
    While somewhat valid, it's not realistic.

    And @ Dune - No, of course it isn't. However, hacking of emails is very common. And when they look through an account and find emails from Steam, they will see if they can get into the Steam account.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tacticalmaster View Post
    you will never stop piracy,steam wont stop it,there will be a crack on the internet in the first week that the game is out.you wont need to activate it then.so why use steam its not going to stop the f k r s who do this.
    With that kind of attitude nothing would ever get done in the world. The fact is, the harder you make it for the pirates the more likely it is that they'll slip up and make a mistake - THEN they can catch them. Sitting around doing nothing and expecting to catch them would just be madness.

    I've had Steam for almost 2 and a half years and I've never had an issue - infact the deals they have on games are actually really good, sometimes up to 75% off! Plus auto-updates and the ability to have your games anywhere any time. I don't know how many times I've lost the disks to games in the past - this eliminates the need for disks.

    If you don't want to buy FM purely on the basis of the way it is activated then that's a real shame to be honest, you'll be missing out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    While somewhat valid, it's not realistic.

    And @ Dune - No, of course it isn't. However, hacking of emails is very common. And when they look through an account and find emails from Steam, they will see if they can get into the Steam account.
    I doubt they'll be after your Steam account if they are hacking your email. It's probably the last thing on their mind. They won't make any money off of the account, it's simply a luxury item which will be locked as soon as Steam find out about the breach.

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    People will moan, regardless of what happens, it's human nature. Steam isn't that bad, honestly, you'll hate it due to the great wallet raping deals it does, and it will remind you of them(It's the only reason steam news pops up, new games and weekly/daily deals). Did i mention the great support and how kind valve is? They gave out FREE copies of left for dead when infinity ward ballsed up with a modern warfare 2 as an apology. They gave them out when they had nothing to do with the error WHATSOEVER.

    Now honestly, some people might complain that steam is a resource hog, and that launching a program just to start a game is too much. They have a point, but everyone has 2 gigabytes of ram nowadays. And unlike every other DRM system, steam has things that encourage you to use it such as a friends list, a steam community system that is integrated with every game, steam cloud, store, great deals... Really, there is no reason to fear it or hate it.

    Unless someone can actually give a valid reason as to why steam activation is a bad thing?

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    As one of those who went puce and made all sorts of accusations about Steam before I ever used it I can only think of all these objections as the ramblings of computing dinosaurs tbh, and believe me I have more right to be dinosauristic than most (as Ackter will rush to assure you)

    Fact is, Steam doesn't hurt you or your PC, it does give access to lots of goodies (take 'em or leave 'em)

    One valid issue to some people would be not being able to roll back patch versions, other than that I'd say give FM12 with Steam a try, I really don't think you'll be dissappointed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune297 View Post
    I doubt they'll be after your Steam account if they are hacking your email. It's probably the last thing on their mind. They won't make any money off of the account, it's simply a luxury item which will be locked as soon as Steam find out about the breach.
    No, they try and get into everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    While somewhat valid, it's not realistic.

    And @ Dune - No, of course it isn't. However, hacking of emails is very common. And when they look through an account and find emails from Steam, they will see if they can get into the Steam account.
    Again tho in todays world, anyone not aware that any online activity can be hacked is a danger to their own privacy, hacking of steam accounts is a very thin reasoning for not using steam, i've had it for years, so have my pals and never heard of a problem, not when compared to amount of people who's xbox live accounts were hacked for Halo Armour and what have you. The only way really to lose your steam account is through your own mistakes, the chances of it being hacked without you giving away details is so slim its hardly worth thinking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David - SEGA View Post
    However, if we find a solution that we think helps combat piracy, which is a huge issue for both SEGA & SI then we are obliged to use this. Honestly, other developers and publishers have been put out of business due to piracy and from a moral stance, and to ensure that future versions of FM happen, this was a decision that was made after a lot of consideration. Combatting piracy is the sole reason for activation being required on FM12, and whilst we know it's not 100% effective, it's the most suitable and best method available.
    I don't have a problem with the activation being required, David, but I don't want to install a pos software like Steam to play the only game I play... I simply will no longer be playing any games (or at least any future ones, FM11 will remain) if that is the only way that I can... surely there must be a different solution available for people like me that are more concerned with privacy and security than they are about playing a game? If there isn't, you're missing out on a lot of potential customers...

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    Your concerns for privacy are deluded, imo.

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    Can i make a suggestion.

    I think Eugene posted thsi in the poll thread, but SI should make a blog detailed what Steam is, what it can do, what little resources it uses compared to other typical apps people use and things like that.

    There seems to be lots of mis-information around and dare i say it but it seems to me that many of the complaints about steam come from the older generation (im 31 started out on an Atari, then PS1 and then onto PC).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertie BG View Post
    The research done by the guys at SEGA think it will have a positive impact and so it's happening. It really is a war against piracy (and piracy, whatever some people will have you think, really is risking destroying creative industries, not just gaming) and this is FM's next move in attempting to combat it.
    And would these be the same guys that were in charge of security on the SEGA site?

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    I think, for me, the basic issue is;

    Steam does not deter pirates. If someone wants to pirate the game, they will. Steam will have no bearing on that.

    Steam can (not will, not always, and not it definitely will because I know someone who's had a bad experience and therefore everyone has a bad experience!!!+1!) have a negative impact on the customer, in a number of potential ways.

    I don't see how this is progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazaru5 View Post
    I don't have a problem with the activation being required, David, but I don't want to install a pos software like Steam to play the only game I play... I simply will no longer be playing any games (or at least any future ones, FM11 will remain) if that is the only way that I can... surely there must be a different solution available for people like me that are more concerned with privacy and security than they are about playing a game? If there isn't, you're missing out on a lot of potential customers...
    In terms of "Privacy and Security", what do you refer to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    And would these be the same guys that were in charge of security on the SEGA site?
    Low blow

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazaru5 View Post
    I don't have a problem with the activation being required, David, but I don't want to install a pos software like Steam to play the only game I play... I simply will no longer be playing any games (or at least any future ones, FM11 will remain) if that is the only way that I can... surely there must be a different solution available for people like me that are more concerned with privacy and security than they are about playing a game? If there isn't, you're missing out on a lot of potential customers...
    there are no privacy or security issues with steam, no more so than any internet application, if you think otherwise your really kidding yourself on laz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    I think, for me, the basic issue is;

    Steam does not deter pirates. If someone wants to pirate the game, they will. Steam will have no bearing on that.

    Steam can (not will, not always, and not it definitely will because I know someone who's had a bad experience and therefore everyone has a bad experience!!!+1!) have a negative impact on the customer, in a number of potential ways.

    I don't see how this is progress.
    In terms of "in a number of a potential ways" what do you refer to?

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    Steam, bleah.
    Very bad move SI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siven View Post
    Can i make a suggestion.

    I think Eugene posted thsi in the poll thread, but SI should make a blog detailed what Steam is, what it can do, what little resources it uses compared to other typical apps people use and things like that.

    There seems to be lots of mis-information around and dare i say it but it seems to me that many of the complaints about steam come from the older generation (im 31 started out on an Atari, then PS1 and then onto PC).
    Thanks for the suggestion Siven - we'll look into it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David - SEGA View Post
    However, if we find a solution that we think helps combat piracy, which is a huge issue for both SEGA & SI then we are obliged to use this. Honestly, other developers and publishers have been put out of business due to piracy and from a moral stance, and to ensure that future versions of FM happen, this was a decision that was made after a lot of consideration. Combatting piracy is the sole reason for activation being required on FM12, and whilst we know it's not 100% effective, it's the most suitable and best method available.
    Hi David,

    Can you estimate the amount of illegal copys will be reduced? in a previous post you said that now it's about 25% of illegal copys... with this method... do you have an estimate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by David - SEGA View Post
    However, if we find a solution that we think helps combat piracy, which is a huge issue for both SEGA & SI then we are obliged to use this. Honestly, other developers and publishers have been put out of business due to piracy and from a moral stance, and to ensure that future versions of FM happen, this was a decision that was made after a lot of consideration. Combatting piracy is the sole reason for activation being required on FM12, and whilst we know it's not 100% effective, it's the most suitable and best method available.
    Steam linked games have been hacked and leaked on to the 'net, so I suspect the same may happen with FM 2012.

    However, is the real reason to go down this route is to stop the sale of second hand FM games and to stop the sale of Fm2012 before the official release. Okay, not so much top, but maybe to stop people playing the game before the official release date?

    A lot of quality games are out over the next few months. Football Manager 2012 will not be one that I will purchase if it has this compulsory element to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpwild View Post
    Steam linked games have been hacked and leaked on to the 'net, so I suspect the same may happen with FM 2012.

    However, is the real reason to go down this route is to stop the sale of second hand FM games and to stop the sale of Fm2012 before the official release. Okay, not so much top, but maybe to stop people playing the game before the official release date?

    A lot of quality games are out over the next few months. Football Manager 2012 will not be one that I will purchase if it has this compulsory element to it.
    Most people who play the game before the official release date (I'm not including those few naughty retailers who send things out early!) will be playing pirated copies.

    If this stopping people playing before the release date reduces piracy then yes that will be a reason why we're doing this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave80 View Post
    In terms of "in a number of a potential ways" what do you refer to?
    Steam application not working/crashing.

    Not being able to sign in to Steam due to problems with your connection or theirs.

    No telephone support.

    Slow internet support.

    Offline mode not reliable.

    Automatically updating to latest version of FM, even if people don't want to update.

    Having account hacked can result in temporary loss to games (and very rarely permanent, if you're not smart enough to keep receipts, or you also lose access to your email account.)

    Technical support - If you have a game error, SI first have to figure out whether its a Steam issue or an FM issue.
    Last edited by Wakers; 16-09-2011 at 17:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siven View Post
    Can i make a suggestion.

    I think Eugene posted thsi in the poll thread, but SI should make a blog detailed what Steam is, what it can do, what little resources it uses compared to other typical apps people use and things like that.

    There seems to be lots of mis-information around and dare i say it but it seems to me that many of the complaints about steam come from the older generation (im 31 started out on an Atari, then PS1 and then onto PC).
    Exactly.


    All this malarky about Steam is just misnformed people that don't know any better. Teach someone to fish and they'll play FM12!

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    2dboy (the developers of World of Goo) did some research into these kind of things when developing their game. Ultimately they went against using DRM and found similar piracy statistics to DRMed games. What they concluded was that if someone pirates your game then they are unlikely to purchase it if they are prevented from pirating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertie BG View Post
    Most people who play the game before the official release date (I'm not including those few naughty retailers who send things out early!) will be playing pirated copies.

    If this stopping people playing before the release date reduces piracy then yes that will be a reason why we're doing this.
    What?

    What I am saying is that is this method that you are now implementing a way to stop people playing their legally bought copies before the official release date. I.e a retailer selling early and God forbid a fan of your product actually buying it and then obviously playing it a couple of days early as has been the case for many years.

    Please don't link that to piracy in any way what so ever - they are two separate issues so don't blur them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David - SEGA View Post
    Thanks for the suggestion Siven - we'll look into it.
    It was my suggestion. I want full credit and Royalties! You can access me through Steam only though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    Hi David,

    Can you estimate the amount of illegal copys will be reduced? in a previous post you said that now it's about 25% of illegal copys... with this method... do you have an estimate?
    Edit: Just re-read the OP & now it makes sense, it was a 'what if..' scenario, I withdraw my cheap shot.
    Last edited by Barside; 16-09-2011 at 17:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    there are no privacy or security issues with steam, no more so than any internet application, if you think otherwise your really kidding yourself on laz.
    any program that connects to the internet for any reason is a potential privacy or security risk, I am very strict in which software I allow to access the internet, even to the point that I won't use "automatic updates" - Steam auto-updates.. oops another reason to not install the junk

    I see that what we have here are people who *think* they know what they're talking about (when they know nowt) and those who do know what they're talking about and trying to hide the negatives... either way, I won't install steam...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpwild View Post
    What?

    What I am saying is that is this method that you are now implementing a way to stop people playing their legally bought copies before the official release date. I.e a retailer selling early and God forbid a fan of your product actually buying it and then obviously playing it a couple of days early as has been the case for many years.

    Please don't link that to piracy in any way what so ever - they are two separate issues so don't blur them.
    Hey, I've already said earlier in the thread that I wasn't involved in the discussions so don't know the exact reasonings behind things. All I meant is that it makes sense that, if it's felt that stopping people playing early will reduce piracy, then that would likely have been a factor in the decision.

    Piracy is a massive problem in our industry and seriously affects Football Manager as a series. The motivation behind all of this is trying to combat that and it's felt that making this move will do so
    Last edited by Bertie BG; 16-09-2011 at 17:04.

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    You can't say there are no security or privacy issues with Steam. It is based on the internet, ergo, it has security and privacy issues. How big they are depends on each person.

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    Ah well. I wasn't convinced about getting this version anyway. This news was just the final nail in the coffin. My FM computer is not connected to the internet and I have no intention of doing so, not even just to activate the game.
    I'd like to thank SI for the fun over the years, I think my time with their games is at an end.

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    A very very bad day in FM history

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View Post
    There is some real bizarre logic in this thread. Simply put we're running with Steam for this release. If you don't like it, we're sorry but it's not going to change for this release. If you don't want to buy the game simply because you don't want to have to use Steam then you won't buy the game. I don't know why some people are arguing over the fact they're not going to buy the game? Either you are or you aren't, there's not much we can do about that other than reassure you that we feel Steam is the best choice for Football Manager.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Because, Neil, some of these people are sitting with tinfoil hats on as they post here.

    It might have been best to not say anything and have Steam install when you install the game, then run in the background. I don't think anyone who is afraid of Steam would have noticed.
    And this is?


    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    How about this

    If you have never installed Steam and you don't want to install steam well meet half way

    How about you try it for a week and if you don't like it you can uninstall it?
    If you have any questions on how to use it, or to uninstall it just ask.


    But if you're just not installing it because of irrational fears that it's a memory hog, slows down your computer, it's spying on you or anything like that, I can confirm that none of that is true.

    Try it. You might actually like it. And if you don't uninstall it.
    Where exactly is this halfway?

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    One positive that will come from this is that many people who've never used Steam will do so, they'll then (like me) discover such forgotten wonders as Railroad Tycoon2 and Sid Meiers Pirates etc. at £2.99, and their joy will be wondrous to behold

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazaru5 View Post
    any program that connects to the internet for any reason is a potential privacy or security risk, I am very strict in which software I allow to access the internet, even to the point that I won't use "automatic updates" - Steam auto-updates.. oops another reason to not install the junk

    I see that what we have here are people who *think* they know what they're talking about (when they know nowt) and those who do know what they're talking about and trying to hide the negatives... either way, I won't install steam...
    Why are updates or automatic updates a problem? Most of the time they close security issues. Sometimes it's about a new feature.

    But you can turn off automatic updates. And you can turn Steam to Offline mode once you've activated the game. So it won't update. It will sit there. It won't sit there judging you or anything.

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    As far as privacy and security - surely 5 minutes to activate FM then putting it in "Offline Mode" would not compromise your privacy or security. For those paranoids out there that would be the best and only solution for you as David(SEGA) has said - they won't be changing the method of activation for the release.

    Complaining about it now is fairly pointless, it won't change anything - either you are going to install it and be able to play, or you're not - and you'll miss out on FM12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    One positive that will come from this is that many people who've never used Steam will do so, they'll then (like me) discover such forgotten wonders as Railroad Tycoon2 and Sid Meiers Pirates etc. at £2.99, and their joy will be wondrous to behold
    Total sidetrack but Sid Meiers Pirates is the BOMB! I played the original on my old system and if that's on Stream, I take it all back SI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    And this is?




    Where exactly is this halfway?

    Ok install half of it then?

    It was aimed at people that have never tried it and think it will slow their system down.

    if they install it and like it - then good. If they don't then uninstall it and no harm done.

    Rather than saying they'll never install it without even trying it out.

    Halfway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    It was my suggestion. I want full credit and Royalties! You can access me through Steam only though.
    I did say it was your suggestion

    Here have a hug

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazaru5 View Post
    any program that connects to the internet for any reason is a potential privacy or security risk, I am very strict in which software I allow to access the internet, even to the point that I won't use "automatic updates" - Steam auto-updates.. oops another reason to not install the junk

    I see that what we have here are people who *think* they know what they're talking about (when they know nowt) and those who do know what they're talking about and trying to hide the negatives... either way, I won't install steam...
    i really do feel sorry for you, your going to deny yourself a game you have loved for 20 years, as you have pointed out, because of your ignorance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    Steam application not working/crashing.

    Not being able to sign in to Steam due to problems with your connection or theirs.

    No telephone support.

    Slow internet support.

    Offline mode not reliable.

    Automatically updating to latest version of FM, even if people don't want to update.

    Having account hacked can result in temporary loss to games (and very rarely permanent, if you're not smart enough to keep receipts, or you also lose access to your email account.)

    Technical support - If you have a game error, SI first have to figure out whether its a Steam issue or an FM issue.
    In relation to this we're pretty proud of our level of support so hopefully if people do have issues with Steam we can certainly try and help out. Also people can easily turn off 'auto-updates' for FM and Steam via the preferences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0gris View Post
    People will moan, regardless of what happens, it's human nature. Steam isn't that bad, honestly, you'll hate it due to the great wallet raping deals it does, and it will remind you of them(It's the only reason steam news pops up, new games and weekly/daily deals). Did i mention the great support and how kind valve is? They gave out FREE copies of left for dead when infinity ward ballsed up with a modern warfare 2 as an apology. They gave them out when they had nothing to do with the error WHATSOEVER.

    Now honestly, some people might complain that steam is a resource hog, and that launching a program just to start a game is too much. They have a point, but everyone has 2 gigabytes of ram nowadays. And unlike every other DRM system, steam has things that encourage you to use it such as a friends list, a steam community system that is integrated with every game, steam cloud, store, great deals... Really, there is no reason to fear it or hate it.

    Unless someone can actually give a valid reason as to why steam activation is a bad thing?
    Yes, I don't want it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    You can't say there are no security or privacy issues with Steam. It is based on the internet, ergo, it has security and privacy issues. How big they are depends on each person.
    There are security and privacy issues with you using your internet browser. Even without the broswer open. Simply being attached to internet.

    I reckon some people are sitting at home toggling the WIFI switch in between posts, or unplugging the Ethernet post directly after they posted, then plugging it back in to reply.

    This is bordering madness.

    Steam is not going to do anything to compromise your security.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertie BG View Post
    Hey, I've already said earlier in the thread that I wasn't involved in the discussions so don't know the exact reasonings behind things. All I meant is that it makes sense that, if it's felt that stopping people playing early will reduce piracy, then that would likely have been a factor in the decision.

    Piracy is a massive problem in our industry and seriously affects Football Manager as a series. The motivation behind all of this is trying to combat that and it's felt that making this move will do so
    You're doing it again. You're linking an issue with piracy in which is pretty much has no link what-so-ever.

    Once again: Is this Steam activation method a way to stop people playing the game that they have bought from a UK retailer before the official release date? If someone goes to a retailer and God forbid purchases the game a couple of days before the official release date then they will no longer be able to play that game until the Steam servers activate it. yes? I am not suggested or defending piracy at all. You are linking, somehow, the issue of piracy to someone going to a shop and buying the game before the official release date - that is not piracy in any way shape or form.

    Has any retailer put pressure on Sega or SI or offered incentives to implement such a activation method? I could imagine various retailers getting annoyed at other retailers who sell the game early.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    One positive that will come from this is that many people who've never used Steam will do so, they'll then (like me) discover such forgotten wonders as Railroad Tycoon2 and Sid Meiers Pirates etc. at £2.99, and their joy will be wondrous to behold
    Indeed, not forgetting Worms too!

    Oh i also got Batman: Arkham Asylum for under £4 too

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    You may as well just make FM13 digital only - no point having the disc if you can't do anything with it on it's own...


    Take this example. It's February 2012. All Steam servers are to go offline and never come back. Hell of a lot of pissed off customers you'll have. ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siven View Post
    I did say it was your suggestion

    Here have a hug
    I can feel the love. Since you supported it then we'll go splitsies on the royalties at 70/30 in my favour

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Why are updates or automatic updates a problem? Most of the time they close security issues. Sometimes it's about a new feature.

    But you can turn off automatic updates. And you can turn Steam to Offline mode once you've activated the game. So it won't update. It will sit there. It won't sit there judging you or anything.
    Why won't you get this into your head,,, IT wont be on my machine, period, ever, no way no how, never ever... GET IT!!!

    Christ's sake...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpwild View Post
    You're doing it again. You're linking an issue with piracy in which is pretty much has no link what-so-ever.

    Once again: Is this Steam activation method a way to stop people playing the game that they have bought from a UK retailer before the official release date? If someone goes to a retailer and God forbid purchases the game a couple of days before the official release date then they will no longer be able to play that game until the Steam servers activate it. yes? I am not suggested or defending piracy at all. You are linking, somehow, the issue of piracy to someone going to a shop and buying the game before the official release date - that is not piracy in any way shape or form.

    Has any retailer put pressure on Sega or SI or offered incentives to implement such a activation method? I could imagine various retailers getting annoyed at other retailers who sell the game early.
    I'm not linking anything, I said "if it's felt". The ONLY motivation behind this was to combat Piracy not to try and stop people buying the game legally, whether early or otherwise. There's been no pressure from retailers or any other conspiracy theory you'd like to throw out there. We're trying to combat people pirating our games, that's it.

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    * Will this Steam-measure affect users in 'illegal' countries, e.g. Germany? I'm not even allowed to view FM-videos(!) on Steam because I'm based in Germany...

    * Also: Will the game get updated via Steam or will there be the usual boxed patches? Might be another issue.. I know I can turn out auto updates, but would I be stuck with v12.0.0 then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzie MUFC View Post
    I use Steam for some games, but one thing I don't like is when something happens to the Steam servers, it makes the game inaccessible, and by that time, you can't switch to offline mode. I spent a week not being able to play FM10 at one point, and decided I wouldn't use it to install my FM games with again. Uninstalled, and reinstalled with disc only. Obviously this won't be possible now.

    Sure, you can always switch to offline mode in the first place, but that makes the rest of Steam pointless, including the community and achievements.
    This is my fear, too.
    Last edited by Koki; 16-09-2011 at 17:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    There are security and privacy issues with you using your internet browser. Even without the broswer open. Simply being attached to internet.

    I reckon some people are sitting at home toggling the WIFI switch in between posts, or unplugging the Ethernet post directly after they posted, then plugging it back in to reply.

    This is bordering madness.

    Steam is not going to do anything to compromise your security.
    This is the point. It's on the internet, so everyone has to be aware of the security and possible privacy issues. This is the same for anything on the internet. Just because a web browser is also on the internet, does not mean that people should be ignorant to security and privacy in every other internet based application.

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    But it's a crazy stance to take. You think it compromises your security. You have a bunch of people here all from different backgrounds, countries, age groups, all telling you the same thing.

    Perhaps you should research Steam a bit more before making that decision.

    And less of the aggressive tone please? People are just trying to talk to you to get an understanding of your viewpoint. Which you haven't made very clear. Other than you think it's somehow going to compromise your security. And it won't.

    You're on the internet right now. Being on line is by far more intrusive than installing and using Steam.

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    How many steam accounts will you be able to install it on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazaru5 View Post
    Why won't you get this into your head,,, IT wont be on my machine, period, ever, no way no how, never ever... GET IT!!!

    Christ's sake...
    Then I'm sorry to say that you won't be able to play FM this year as this decision has been made and won't be gone back on. I hope you change your mind as I, Eugene and a few others on this forum think you're making the wrong decision.

    That's your choice though although I'm sorry you've made it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siven View Post
    Indeed, not forgetting Worms too!

    Oh i also got Batman: Arkham Asylum for under £4 too
    Portal is currently free as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danielmetcalf View Post
    How many steam accounts will you be able to install it on?
    One Steam account although you can login with that Steam account on an unlimited amount of computers (just only one at a time).

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    I have Steam, and I will buy FM12, but I'm also pretty annoyed that this has been brought in. I installed FM10 on Steam at first and encountered all kinds of errors, made worse by the fact that my uni halls had an extremely erratic web connection. But Steam's customer support is extremely poor in my experience, and the offline mode is also temperamental, no matter what other pro-Steam users here have said. It plays up if your Internet connection drops out temporarily and can sometimes be a pig's ear to get back again. I can't be bothered faffing about with stuff like that, especially having to scroll when in full-screen mode (which, I will point out, Macs don't seem to like - especially when the game is processing. Could freely scroll between windows on F-S mode when I was using Windows 7.)

    That said, Steam isn't as bad as people might think it is. It doesn't take up a huge amount of RAM (if you have a reasonable computer) and it doesn't put your identity at risk - in fact it is a lot safer than the likes of Facebook etc which I assume the majority of people here use. They are all myths.

    I'm skeptical, and I don't think it will make a huge difference in terms of piracy, but my doubts are merely speculating. Hopefully it will come out and after the initial 'unlocking' I won't even have to think about Steam in terms of FM.

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    It's not an internet based application. It's based on your computer. Once you activate the game you can turn Steam to offline mode. If you launch FM you can quit Steam. To relaunch FM start up Steam, launch FM, quit Steam.


    Steam does NOTHING to compromise your security.

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    It's hard for me to say that i wouldn't purchase FM12 because of this but did you tkink twice, when you were making decision like this?
    I mean these people who actually do not know what steam is all about, now will have to install it, and then making some kind of things to activating their games? WHY?

    you know, if the SI developers are doing their best to find solution for the problem but they aren't able to completely fix it, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT PEOPLE SHOULD DO THEIR BeST TO JUST REGISTER THEIR 100 % LICENCED GAME.

    It's Rubbish. Im sorry

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7Bestie7 View Post
    Total sidetrack but Sid Meiers Pirates is the BOMB! I played the original on my old system and if that's on Stream, I take it all back SI.
    You can also download a mod that gives you topless barmaids and governors daughters

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ackter View Post
    Portal is currently free as well.
    Really? Bugger! I only bought that through Steam a month or two ago!

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    Hi all
    I know this an emotive subject but there are a few claims being made on posts here that need clarifying a little:

    Firstly the reason for asking genuine consumers to activate via Steam is purely combatting piracy. No money changes hands between SEGA and Steam. People saying it will not combat piracy are not in possesion of the facts that those who have made the decision have. We all know that unfortunately it wont cure piracy, but it will , we believe massively reduce it this year.

    This is not done to pave the way for digital only releases. My personal belief is that day is coming to gaming as it is to music and watching movies at home, but it's not a factor here, hence needing to activate physical copies of the game.

    People have always legally needed to buy one copy of the game per person, although we know it's often not the case. If you don't play at the same time then more than one person can play FM with different saves, the same as always.Someone mentioned FIFA, if you buy a copy of a console game you can play it at the same time on the same machine, different times on the same machine but you can't play it at the same time on different machines, same as FM this year.

    Some have doubted the intention of the move being antipiracy and wanting to see stat and asked for honesty. We can't and won't post data of sales, or piracy. However, I will be honest and say if we could remove piracy from FM and a small proportion of those pirates moved to buying the game it would be the equivalent of adding 1 2 or maybe 3 European countries worth of sales to the game easily.

    People have said that this is an inconvenience to real consumers. It is. Everyone involved wishes it wasn't. What we're asking is for people to see past the inconvenience of one off activation. A billion things in life require you to prove who you are, or show proof of age or ownership, it's not realistic to suggest that people trust you and everyone on everything because it inconveniences the law abiding citizen, that's not how moving from country to country, or owning a car, or buying alcohol, or telephone banking or loads of stuff works. Unfortunately, because so many people steal FM each year it's not really an option for us to expect that FM is just trusted either. We've tried to make the system as simple and as pinaless as possible, i hope you try it and give it a chance.

    If you havem't tried STEAM for a few years, it's worth a look. We didn't chose this course of action for FM10 or FM11, but we are now and it's because we think Steam has improved, and internet connection rates are at a level where it's realistic to assume FM consumers, in the main have an internet connection. Some people won't, but it is still possible to activate through Steam, switch on offline mode and not connect again after making one trip to somewhere with wifi or a connection. It's not perfect, but we think the vast vast majority of people will be able to connect to the internet.

    No, the people in charge of this system aren't the people who were in charge of the sega site security

    If you get a chance to take up the £5 bet that a cracked working version of the game is available before it's activated on Steam, take it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joekobe View Post
    It's hard for me to say that i wouldn't purchase FM12 because of this but did you tkink twice, when you were making decision like this?
    I mean these people who actually do not know what steam is all about, now will have to install it, and then making some kind of things to activating their games? WHY?

    you know, if the SI developers are doing their best to find solution for the problem but they aren't able to completely fix it, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT SHOULD DO THEIR BUST TO JUST REGISTER THEIR 100 % LICENCED GAME.

    It's Rubbish. Im sorry
    The decision was not taken lightly and was taken after thorough research as to the best way to combat piracy for this year's game. It was felt, after that research, that this was the best option available.

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    Well done SI/SEGA!

    Gamers who don't accept your anti-piracy efforts are a bunch of whiners. Spoon fed, crying babies who have mom and pop to pay for food, shelter and, obviously, the FM game each year.

    Piracy makes the game more expensive for everyone. So, suck it up your pampered whiners. You should be grateful that SI is doing something to make the game more affordable and secure for everyone.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View Post
    In relation to this we're pretty proud of our level of support so hopefully if people do have issues with Steam we can certainly try and help out. Also people can easily turn off 'auto-updates' for FM and Steam via the preferences.
    This is the problem Neil.

    I suspect the majority of people are happy with the level of support that SI/Sega offer on the forums but IF something goes wrong which is Steam related that support is next to useless as the responsibility will then be with Steam. Simply put users have far more confidence in SI's support than they do in Steam's.

    It isn't that long ago (FM09?) that it was a forum user and not SI staff that was helping people with the majority of Steam issues.

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    Absolutely unuseles. Hackers will do go throught that every time, and this "protection" cause problems only for original buyers (US!!!).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
    You can also download a mod that gives you topless barmaids and governors daughters
    Right that's it...Steam is officially the best thing since sliced bananas!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    It's not an internet based application. It's based on your computer. Once you activate the game you can turn Steam to offline mode. If you launch FM you can quit Steam. To relaunch FM start up Steam, launch FM, quit Steam.


    Steam does NOTHING to compromise your security.
    This is just wrong. You should not be spouting out misinformation. It is an application that requires you to submit an email address and a password in order to use it. You login over the internet. You purchase games over the internet. You update games over the internet, it is an internet based application. End of story.

    As it involves sending information and receiving information from the internet, then it has security issues that people need to be aware of. They need to know how to set a proper password, make sure the email is safe and so on. Nothing you say will change that, regardless of how many times you repeat the same misinformation in capitals.

    It is the same with any application that requires a username and password. People need to know how to be safe. That is the end of the story, and I really don't see why you don't understand this?

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    Assuming that the data on the use of illegal copies is accurate & readily available I would imagine that SI know exactly watch regions have the highest incidents of piracy (It has already been mentioned by Miles that Turkey is a problem market) then surely this needs to be a two-pronged attack on the issue.

    There is no need to labour the point but it is a fairly held point that DRM does not reduce piracy as these systems have been in place for a number of years yet publishing houses constantly & rightly bemoan the increased prevalence of illegally obtained copies of their IP, what the honest, law-abiding community needs to see are publishes actively stating which markets represent the biggest concern, why those areas have such a problem, is it price, culture, whatever & what if anything is being considered to attack the problem.

    Unfortunately I do not think it is a problem that can be fixed, someone has already posted in this thread that they & their brother used the same copy of FM under the old system which is clear violation of the UELA yet I'd hazard a guess that many people in the UK would not see that as an issue, now if such a mindset exists in an affluent country such as the UK were let's be honest £24.99 is a reasonable price to pay based on average disposable income how can SI/SEGA sensibly think they can tackle the issue in other countries that do not have such a favourable price/income ratio.

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    I can't understand all this bitching and moaning about Steam, I really can't. FM is a game that I care about, one of the very few games that I'm buying, and I'll keep buying it even if SI would ask me for a blood sample to activate it! I can't see how a reliable application like Steam would ruin the game for you, I've been using it for three years now and I didn't have any major problems with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    It's not an internet based application. It's based on your computer. Once you activate the game you can turn Steam to offline mode. If you launch FM you can quit Steam. To relaunch FM start up Steam, launch FM, quit Steam.


    Steam does NOTHING to compromise your security.

    Will you please stop spreading false information!

    YOU CANNOT QUIT STEAM AFTER LOADING FM, STEAM MUST BE RUNNING TO PLAY FM.

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