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Thread: Official Blog Feedback - youth & newgens

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    Default Official Blog Feedback - youth & newgens

    This is a thread for today's blog, youth teams & newgens, which can be found at http://community.sigames.com/showthr...10#post7075110

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    Sounds fantastic.. Finally some real improvements to the youth setup - loving it!

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    Sounds absolutely brilliant! Great blog!

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    Love it. Sounds great

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    Sounds really good- this is an aspect of the game I get a lot of enjoyment out of so I will definitely be looking to cherry pick the players for the youth team. I also feel the traits system sounds like an interesting concept but i would hope that its just a general pattern and there would be exceptions to the rule.

    ie the odd classy Brazilian winger or a Brazilian with low flair.

    Overall though it sounds like some good concepts to influence the youth system at the club though I would question about te home grown status of foreign youths at the club. Would it take them 3 years to become a "trained at club" between 15-21 or would they immediately be considered as home grown (0-21)?

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    Really good read and great feature too. I've never really bothered with the youth set up but I think I may give it a whirl now.

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    If you can request for youth team to be abolished, can AI teams do this too? And if so, when you are negotiating to take over a club that has no youth team set up can you make it a requirement of you taking over that the youth setup be re-introduced?

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    Now this I DO like. As a financially-challenged lower league manager, it's hugely frustrating to have a bunch of hopeless youth dumped on you that you have to pay to release - you never wanted them in the first place! Now we get control over that - marvellous.

    I thought regional traits for newgens was already in the game - hope it works better in FM12. Can just see the British kids coming through - all strength and pace and 1s for technical and mental attributes!

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    All this sounds really amazing.

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    Can't wait to see the extra changes. Really like the new youth promotion. step closer to mabye not linking them to a position to start with (Hopefully). So once we view them through their trialist period if we want them we decided their position. Going to definatly need a top quality assistant manager to have accurate reports.

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    Quote Originally Posted by username1 View Post
    If you can request for youth team to be abolished, can AI teams do this too? And if so, when you are negotiating to take over a club that has no youth team set up can you make it a requirement of you taking over that the youth setup be re-introduced?
    Yes & kind of - you can request via the board requests and by joining a youth league at the start of the season, but you can't make it a requirement before joining a club.

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    Not too happy with this, by this I mean national traits. It was supposed to be in FM11 and really didn't work well. Someone mentioned above, I hope this isn't a blanket thing and there will still be flair players from England and tough tackling defensive mids from Brazil. I fear for this I really do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by username1 View Post
    If you can request for youth team to be abolished, can AI teams do this too? And if so, when you are negotiating to take over a club that has no youth team set up can you make it a requirement of you taking over that the youth setup be re-introduced?
    I assume that would be the case with the AI mabe depends on the Chairman Business Rating, But don't think it will be like a contract clause type thing just have to pursuade them to start building one.

    EDIT: nice one miles on the ball

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    Love it love it love it. I get hugely involved with the youth side of FM and getting to have a youth team vs assessed youth game is excellent. Hopefully also the scale which lets you know how good your recruitment is will be available so you can see you have 7/8 level instead of very good etc.

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    I really don't agree about Brazil not producing wingers, their old world cup winning teams had them, indeed maybe the greatest of them all, Garrincha. And I was a huge fan of Denilson (the '90's one!). I don't follow football so much nowadays, but even I know of Amantino Mancini and Willian, and doesnt Renato Augusto play on the wing? If they are low on wingers, surely that's a fashion of the moment, not a historically defined characteristic (as flair would genuinely be) in their culture for example.

    Can a country's characteristics change as formations change and time moves on in the game, or are they set? Can they be edited by us?

    but overall i think the new changes sound really great.
    Last edited by username1; 15-09-2011 at 12:26.

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    Without video in this blog?

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    Liking this. I only really play long-term games so this is a really key part of the game for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by username1 View Post
    I really don't agree about Brazil not producing wingers, their old world cup winning teams had them, indeed maybe the greatest of them all, Garrincha. And I was a huge fan of Denilson (the '90's one!). I don't follow football so much nowadays, but even I know of Amantino Mancini and Willian, and doesnt Renato Augusto play on the wing? If they are low on wingers, surely that's a fashion of the moment, not a historically defined characteristic (as flair would genuinely be) in their culture for example.
    Nowadays Majority of brazilian wingers are either retrained AMC or ST or a Dani Alves style of player

    EDIT: Mancini on FM11 is an AMR, Willian is Natural AMC and so is Augusto
    Last edited by The Welsh Lad; 15-09-2011 at 12:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by username1 View Post
    I really don't agree about Brazil not producing wingers, their old world cup winning teams had them, indeed maybe the greatest of them all, Garrincha. And I was a huge fan of Denilson (the '90's one!). I don't follow football so much nowadays, but even I know of Amantino Mancini and Willian, and doesnt Renato Augusto play on the wing? If they are low on wingers, surely that's a fashion of the moment, not a historically defined characteristic (as flair would genuinely be) in their culture for example.
    Spot on, it's why I think this "feature" won't work and may be counter productive.

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    Really interesting addition

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    The ability to filter out the 'chaff' so to speak (don't let the players hear that) is going to be a real boon. I loathe having to negotiate crappy one-season contracts for the useless youth newgens (cheaper) - but this keeps the micro-micro management aspect alive plus makes it more realistic and time saving. Brilliant addition. I like the attribute changes if they are well balanced (racial physical attribs too or not going there?)

    Nice to hear Miles talk about balancing those of us who strive for the "hands on: 20" rating and those who think that's too crazy!

    Question: I like selling the crappy youth for pocket change, are the trialists going to leave on frees?

    edit: related other question, can we now ask our scouts to assess our team? Apologies if this has been added already since I play FM09. It is rare to find a coach who is good AND has 20/20 vision for potential. And it's stupid the manager can't ring up head scout to look at a youth system player (assmans are rarely good at potential I find).
    Last edited by Harmonica; 15-09-2011 at 12:32.

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    You could always retrain a brazilian wingback to play attacking winger?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazbowski View Post
    Not too happy with this, by this I mean national traits. It was supposed to be in FM11 and really didn't work well. Someone mentioned above, I hope this isn't a blanket thing and there will still be flair players from England and tough tackling defensive mids from Brazil. I fear for this I really do.
    Things like these are never a "blanket thing". They are called traits or templates because they are used as guidelines for the creation of newgens to model some real life tendencies. As in real life, not all players follow these tendencies so there can and will definitely be exceptions to the stereotypical players. Not all players are made from the same mold even if they come from the same nation, but in order to create order from chaos that is newgen creation, we need to have some level of traits to guide the process along
    Last edited by Riz Remes; 15-09-2011 at 12:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica View Post
    The ability to filter out the 'chaff' so to speak (don't let the players hear that) is going to be a real boon. I loathe having to negotiate crappy one-season contracts for the useless youth newgens (cheaper) - but this keeps the micro-micro management aspect alive plus makes it more realistic and time saving. Brilliant addition. I like the attribute changes if they are well balanced (racial physical attribs too or not going there?)

    Nice to hear Miles talk about balancing those of us who strive for the "hands on: 20" rating and those who think that's too crazy!

    Question: I like selling the crappy youth for pocket change, are the trialists going to leave on frees?
    Yes because they haven't got a contract

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    country based positional traits
    Not sure I like this.


    With FM 2012, we’ve given you more control over which players make it into your youth squad.
    But I really like this.


    We’ve also improved the way youth recruitment works at different clubs for their youth setup. The club’s youth recruitment network and youth facilities are not only linked to the quality of newgens produced by the youth setup, but also the scope of the recruitment. So clubs with excellent recruitment networks and state-of-the art facilities have the ability to attract youth players not just from the local regions, but from other continents as well.
    And this could be awesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica View Post
    T
    Question: I like selling the crappy youth for pocket change, are the trialists going to leave on frees?
    Yes, they will leave at the end of their trial period naturally unless you offer them a proper youth contract.

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    I don't know why, (like I can talk I'm still playing FM2008), but I see this being counter-intuitive. Unless the code is spot on, doesn't this mean you're always going to get the same types of players from each country or region, and then maybe one or two individual traits? "Players in Spain are more likely to play a short passing game." Regardless of whether it is true or not, I don't think it helps to generalise like that. It is just like when so called pundits say that Italy is all about catenaccio, when frankly it isn't, and when it was, that was in a small era of Italian football. Look at Guidolin and Udinese for example now, or Zeman and Foggia from 1989 to 1994.

    Please re-assure me SI that there will still be a random factor in the way youth players develop, and not just based on generalisations. I'm still looking for the right time to buy a new version.

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    Sounds really good; love trying to develop my youth team and so anything that helps that is good news. Hopefully it will now mean I don't consistently get 4 new defensive midfielders 5 strikers and no one else instead I should get a more vaired selection of players in different positions.

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    Just to clarify, can you reinstate your youth team after getting rid, and if so, how long would one have to wait until the board allowed it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tar_gniK View Post
    I don't know why, (like I can talk I'm still playing FM2008), but I see this being counter-intuitive. Unless the code is spot on, doesn't this mean you're always going to get the same types of players from each country or region, and then maybe one or two individual traits? "Players in Spain are more likely to play a short passing game." Regardless of whether it is true or not, I don't think it helps to generalise like that. It is just like when so called pundits say that Italy is all about catenaccio, when frankly it isn't, and when it was, that was in a small era of Italian football. Look at Guidolin and Udinese for example now, or Zeman and Foggia from 1989 to 1994.

    Please re-assure me SI that there will still be a random factor in the way youth players develop, and not just based on generalisations. I'm still looking for the right time to buy a new version.
    To use Riz's words

    Things like these are never a "blanket thing". They are called traits or templates because they are used as guidelines for the creation of newgens to model some real life tendencies. As in real life, not all players follow these tendencies so there can and will definitely be exceptions to the stereotypical players. Not all players are made from the same mold even if they come from the same nation, but in order to create order from chaos that is newgen creation, we need to have some level of traits to guide the process along

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitz-Matt View Post
    Just to clarify, can you reinstate your youth team after getting rid, and if so, how long would one have to wait until the board allowed it?
    Yes you can, by asking the board to invest in the youth scheme again. The chances for board accepting this naturally depend on the financial situation etc.

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    As was said already, not all players will be from that mold of traits. But a majority will. The likes of Spain they do have a short passing game, so it would make sense. But every now and then you'll get a Xabi Alonso, which is probably the only long-range passer (or a small %) of players in the Spain squad that are good at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tar_gniK View Post
    I don't know why, (like I can talk I'm still playing FM2008), but I see this being counter-intuitive. Unless the code is spot on, doesn't this mean you're always going to get the same types of players from each country or region, and then maybe one or two individual traits? "Players in Spain are more likely to play a short passing game." Regardless of whether it is true or not, I don't think it helps to generalise like that. It is just like when so called pundits say that Italy is all about catenaccio, when frankly it isn't, and when it was, that was in a small era of Italian football. Look at Guidolin and Udinese for example now, or Zeman and Foggia from 1989 to 1994.

    Please re-assure me SI that there will still be a random factor in the way youth players develop, and not just based on generalisations. I'm still looking for the right time to buy a new version.
    Shouldn't be like that at all. I'm guessing it would go something like this: Spanish new gen being calculated - 20% chance +1 passing; 10% chance + 2 passing; 1% chance +3 passing.
    English newgen - 15% chance winger; Brazilian newgen - 4% chance winger.
    with thousands of newgens generated every season, you'll still get a big variety.

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    One the newgen traits, would be interesting if after a few years, the traits change to bring a different type of football to a country would keep long games interesting with have to change a style of play.

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    How many Youth Candidates will there be to choose from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    How many Youth Candidates will there be to choose from?
    Typically around 16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    How many Youth Candidates will there be to choose from?
    May depend on you facilities and network,I would have thought

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    Not really bothered by any of this. About the biggest issue stopping me from having a game that lasts more than 2 seasons at the moment is because there are hardly any newgens with decent mental or physical stats being added to the gameworld.

    Or ones with nonsensical attributes like heading 15, jumping 15, strength 4.

    Before someone shouts "peter crouch" at me - he can't actually jump.

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    So far so good with the announced changes, I truly hope the updated youth system works.

    Now all I have to decide is whether I get the game from launch or wait until everyone else has helped iron out the bugs & buy it in February, considering I was not planning on getting this version as I felt the game hadn't moved on in recent years it's a big to the guys & gals at SI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wakers View Post
    Not really bothered by any of this. About the biggest issue stopping me from having a game that lasts more than 2 seasons at the moment is because there are hardly any newgens with decent mental or physical stats being added to the gameworld.

    Or ones with nonsensical attributes like heading 15, jumping 15, strength 4.

    Before someone shouts "peter crouch" at me - he can't actually jump. - That's the fault of the English youth system, he never had to jump so he was never taught how
    I don't get it, you're not bothered about an improvement that coould potentially fix a long standing issue that you have with the game?
    Last edited by Barside; 15-09-2011 at 12:53.

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    I like this feature, I like having a tinker with my Youth squads throughout the season, buying players under 18 and throwing them into the Youth squad and then seeing how they go after a couple of seasons. It only has around a 40% success rate for me, but with this new level of interaction with the Youths then I might be able to do much better with my Youth squads.

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    That's excelent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barside View Post
    So far so good with the announced changes, I truly hope the updated youth system works.

    Now all I have to decide is whether I get the game from launch or wait until everyone else has helped iron out the bugs & buy it in February, considering I was not planning on getting this version as I felt the game hadn't moved on in recent years it's a big to the guys & gals at SI.


    I don't get it, you're not bothered about an improvement that coould potentially fix a long standing issue that you have with the game?
    No. Nothing in these changes seems to have any impact on the amount of regens with poor mental and physical stats across the entire gameworld. Not to mention the fact that the number of players with ability over 150 plummets season after season. I don't see how these features are relevant to that.

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    great feature!

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    But there are no "eras" so to speak in FM, so every season is the same. I would agree if for example, Spain's short passing approach was phased out, and let's say during the 2070-80's someone came along with something different and changed their approach. Then the new-gens would also have attributes that make them more suitable for that "era in football". For argument's sake, let's say catenaccio-style counter-attack sweeps across Spain, creating a style of play generally adopted by most teams. Then according to this new feature, youth players develop attributes more intertwined with this approach. Does that happen in FM?

    Also, separate question what happens to players past 30? Do they still decline rapidly quickly? Look at Ryan Giggs yesterday as a point in example.
    Last edited by tar_gniK; 15-09-2011 at 12:59.

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    The positional traits for newgens is a great addition.

    In Spain the flat 4-4-2 is almost non existant; We simply don't produce wide midfielders and English-style box-to-box central midfielders are a rarity - you'll either have two DM's playing in a 4-4-2, with attacking midifelders on the wing, or attacking midfielders who are played further back.

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    Really like the sound of these improvements. Personally, I probably get the most 'game satisfaction' from bringing through a newgen from my youth team into a first team star. Getting fine-tooth control over who makes it into your youth squad will certainly enhance this experience.

    It should also greatly ease the development of the potential stars that one already has in your youth team, without needing to 'clear out the chaff' by releasing players on a free. (I had to payout over €300,000 in dumped contracts for useless youth players in starting a new save with Italian C1A team Atletico Roma - granted that will still be a problem when first taking over a team). Before reading SFraser's Guide to Developing Youth Players I hadn't thought about the potential negative effects of keeping these players around - potentially keeping your starts from getting maximum play time.

    EDIT/ADDITION: Also, with regard to the issues about national templates, and "eras" - it would be interesting to see the ability in a future version to choose your own youth system's 'templates' so that the 'national templates' become an aggregation of the youth systems in that country. This way, if Barcelona suddenly started (bizarrely) emphasize slow hulking target men, and other Spanish teams follow, it influences the development of new players and playing styles from Spain.
    Last edited by Kanukki; 15-09-2011 at 13:03.

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    This is a good addition. But what about newgen coaches, have you looked into improving that area as well? I remember last versions had issues with newgen coaches having bad mental attributes and their tactical preferences being too similar.

    I would hope that area was improved also from FM 2011.

    Edit: I would think if you added nation based youth position, the tactical preferences for newgen managers is also tuned for that specific country. I mean if Brazil doesn,t produce that many wingers, having managers that will use tactics with wingers will break the immersion, no?
    Last edited by andu1; 15-09-2011 at 13:00.

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    sounds like an excellent change and addition to the game - just out of interest have SI thought of letting teams have a "youth scout" who you can use to search for specific types of players from the schools? I'd love to be able to tell my scouts to go out and find me some under15's that I could then sign to the youth team through this system - an example?

    well I don't play with any wingers but every year I get 4 or 5 AMR or AML youth players - I know in FM12 I can just release them for free which is great but ideally I'd like to set my search for new youth players to just GK, DC, MC and SC.... does that make sense? (a bit like the loan report option from my assistant)

    or I'd like to set an attribute search..... "go find me kids with pace and acceleration of 10+"

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    No. Nothing in these changes seems to have any impact on the amount of regens with poor mental and physical stats across the entire gameworld. Not to mention the fact that the number of players with ability over 150 plummets season after season. I don't see how these features are relevant to that.
    The last part of the blog said there are more features and improvemnts in the section, so maybe thats one of them wont know until the game is out

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    I play at Lower League levels (not LLM rules though!) - so... a couple of questions:

    A/ Does this mean that after the inherited Youth squad are rationalised (i e sacked or promoted) all Youth prospects will be non contract (i e no more huge compensation costs for dismissalls) but you can keep drafting prospects though year on year on a non contract basis for assessment. Presumably the Board wont close the Academy because you have no Youth team?

    B/ If I close the Academy in the Blue Square BSS to save money, can I reopen / develop one at a later stage as my club climbs the League pyramid and acquires wealth, and how would that work (I ask anytime/ end of season or by Board suggestion to me)?

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    There have also been improvements in the way that the newgens are generated, with country based positional “traits” now being used. In Brazil, for example, it’s rare that they have natural wingers in real life, with those players more likely to be wing backs, so you’ll see less Brazilian newgen wingers, and more Brazilian newgen wing backs.

    The same can also be said of a players mental attributes. Players in Brazil, due to the way they grow up playing the game, are more likely to have flair. Players in Spain are more likely to play a short passing game. All of these traits are now reflected better in game.
    thank you! <3 this will make my brazil games even more enjoyable.

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    @Miles: Why you write like a child and put extra space between every line?
    Some one please write shortly here what's the difference to fm11 in this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    I play at Lower League levels (not LLM rules though!) - so... a couple of questions:

    A/ Does this mean that after the inherited Youth squad are rationalised (i e sacked or promoted) all Youth prospects will be non contract (i e no more huge compensation costs for dismissalls) but you can keep drafting prospects though year on year on a non contract basis for assessment. Presumably the Board wont close the Academy because you have no Youth team?

    B/ If I close the Academy in the Blue Square BSS to save money, can I reopen / develop one at a later stage as my club climbs the League pyramid and acquires wealth, and how would that work (I ask anytime/ end of season or by Board suggestion to me)?

    I think:
    A) youths already at the club who have a contract will cost to release only newgen will have the option of ot having a contract throught the assesment phase. I do any with your youth team then you will get no prospects coming through

    B) Yes you can request to re-open through the Board Request but will be based on finances etc.

    EDIT: I think you will start from the lowest and will have to develop it again, so if you close good facilities you would start back on basic.
    Last edited by The Welsh Lad; 15-09-2011 at 13:10.

  54. #54
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    I like the new features concerning the youth setup. Very useful for those managing at every level and caters to everyones playing style in the way in which it can be run. Will definately be spending more time with my youth setup I can see now.

    As for the traits, I think it will be a good addition personally, so long as they are not overpowering and it is clear to see. All in all, I'm actually really looking forward to getting my hands on the new game and playing with the few new features that have been announced already.

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    Is the national traits thing dynamic? 4-4-2 is much less popular nowadays in general, but could make a return in the future. Likewise 3-at-the-back formations could become popular down the line depending on where things go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lecksa View Post
    @Miles: Why you write like a child and put extra space between every line?
    Some one please write shortly here what's the difference to fm11 in this?
    They're called paragraphs, and they make a longer article easier to read...

    The biggest difference for me is the way youth is recruited, ie picking out the talent. It's basically having loads of players scouted for you, and then weeding out the boys from the men - a lovely addition for those of us where youth becomes the game's major selling point after a few seasons. In FM11 there were no nation-specific traits (another feature I think boosts the realism - not sure why people are complaining), and obviously in FM11 you couldn't be rid of your academy. That is the one feature I'm unsure about, as I'm not sure it ever really happens in real life?

    Overall though, this is the best blog update yet. Excited now

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerhgrrrrrr View Post
    B/ If I close the Academy in the Blue Square BSS to save money, can I reopen / develop one at a later stage as my club climbs the League pyramid and acquires wealth, and how would that work (I ask anytime/ end of season or by Board suggestion to me)?
    Post #31

    xxx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lecksa View Post
    @Miles: Why you write like a child and put extra space between every line?
    Some one please write shortly here what's the difference to fm11 in this?
    Probably to keep people interested and make them read it. Even though it would still be the same text, if it had no lines in-between, it would just appear to be a big wall of text and put a lot of people off reading it.

  59. #59
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    This seems like a very good rip off from Football Manager LIVE...

    Maybe there are more in store from the dead pieces of FML..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riz Remes View Post
    Typically around 16.
    Is there a minimum number you have to takeon? You have to have enough players to have a team after all.I'm sure youth coaches IRL know certain players probably won't makeit, but they need to keep enough on to have a big enough squad.

  61. #61
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    Liking these features, keep up the good work SI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoham View Post
    Is there a minimum number you have to takeon? You have to have enough players to have a team after all.I'm sure youth coaches IRL know certain players probably won't makeit, but they need to keep enough on to have a big enough squad.
    That will be down to you as manager, if you want a big youth squad you can have one, if you want a small youth squad you can have one

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    B) Yes you can request to re-open through the Board Request but will be based on finances etc.

    EDIT: I think you will start from the lowest and will have to develop it again, so if you close good facilities you would start back on basic.
    I don't think it would always be back on basic, I'd hope it would reflect your national and league reputation. For example, if you closed the academy in the BSS and re-opened it in the PL 15 years later, it would be unrealistic for a PL academy for have a basic youth academy. Maybe average or adequate.

    That said, I hope SI have improved the reputation system on FM12, in the last one it was one of the biggest flaws in the game if you progressed though the leagues quickly. I took a club from the BSS to the Championship in four consecutive seasons and the game just hasn't recognised my meteoric rise. If a club did that in real life, they would be extremely well known (think Hoffenheim a few seasons back), so to have my reputation as 'regional' in the Championship is laughable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robsy1990 View Post
    I don't think it would always be back on basic, I'd hope it would reflect your national and league reputation. For example, if you closed the academy in the BSS and re-opened it in the PL 15 years later, it would be unrealistic for a PL academy for have a basic youth academy. Maybe average or adequate.

    That said, I hope SI have improved the reputation system on FM12, in the last one it was one of the biggest flaws in the game if you progressed though the leagues quickly. I took a club from the BSS to the Championship in four consecutive seasons and the game just hasn't recognised my meteoric rise. If a club did that in real life, they would be extremely well known (think Hoffenheim a few seasons back), so to have my reputation as 'regional' in the Championship is laughable.
    Hopefully someone from SI can confirm

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    Sounds amazing! Finally i can stop releasing youth players that will never make the team, for free!! Great feature guys!

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    There have also been improvements in the way that the newgens are generated, with country based positional “traits” now being used.
    I didn't like this when I first read it, and the more I think about it, the more I don't like it.

    Homegrown and Foreign player rules spring to mind. Are there going to be enough players, with suitable attributes and positions, to build a team within your nation's regulations?

    Considering the game can be played over a great many years, restricting the types of players to a certain era, based on their nationally, seems odd.

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    Do feeder/parent clubs affect the nationality of the kids coming through your youth setup? Have you fixed the issue from a couple of years back where if you had Brazilian or any other non-eu kids come through your academy, they all magically had English as a second nationality?

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    “So clubs with excellent recruitment networks and state-of-the art facilities have the ability to attract youth players not just from the local regions, but from other continents as well.”

    Has the game been coded to simulate clubs like Ajax or Athletic Bilbao. Athletic Bilbao only signing Basque players. While at Ajax the recruitment is focused on firstly local (Amsterdam born/living), then national (Netherlands born/living) players. With foreign players signed only if there is a gap in the squad or they are scouted as players with huge potential (like Eriksen).

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    Quote Originally Posted by pn75 View Post
    just out of interest have SI thought of letting teams have a "youth scout" who you can use to search for specific types of players from the schools? I'd love to be able to tell my scouts to go out and find me some under15's that I could then sign to the youth team through this system - an example?
    I assume this question is asking if you can play poacher on academy graduate trialists at other clubs? I'd like to know that too, I assume you'd have to shortlist and wait to see if they are released.

    If not - then it is very easy to have a scout with high potential skill search only for young players when assigning scout tasks. I typically scout the U18 league competitions constantly and it turns up a few quality finds per season (whether they are already on a pre-contract or not is another thing...)

    You can do the attribute-specific youth search already too. Find the button on the add scouting assignment screen that lets you specify restrictions. Beware that 95% of all scouts will be next to useless at finding very specific players, or scouting anywhere you haven't a) added a country to the game save database, or b) run an active league (and you need youth leagues too).

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    I didn't like this when I first read it, and the more I think about it, the more I don't like it.

    Homegrown and Foreign player rules spring to mind. Are there going to be enough players, with suitable attributes and positions, to build a team within your nation's regulations?

    Considering the game can be played over a great many years, restricting the types of players to a certain era, based on their nationally, seems odd.
    It comes down to training, development and retraining positions. For years England stuggled for natural left-footed winger but one or two have come through Adam Johnson being one, Stewert Downing another one.

    Hopefully the traits are dynamic if not now but can be adapted in the next installment, So after say 10 years different types of players are more likely to be developed to create a new era.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    I didn't like this when I first read it, and the more I think about it, the more I don't like it.

    Homegrown and Foreign player rules spring to mind. Are there going to be enough players, with suitable attributes and positions, to build a team within your nation's regulations?

    Considering the game can be played over a great many years, restricting the types of players to a certain era, based on their nationally, seems odd.
    Surely this is just reflecting what happens in real life though?

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica View Post
    I assume this question is asking if you can play poacher on academy graduate trialists at other clubs? I'd like to know that too, I assume you'd have to shortlist and wait to see if they are released.

    If not - then it is very easy to have a scout with high potential skill search only for young players when assigning scout tasks. I typically scout the U18 league competitions constantly and it turns up a few quality finds per season (whether they are already on a pre-contract or not is another thing...)

    You can do the attribute-specific youth search already too. Find the button on the add scouting assignment screen that lets you specify restrictions. Beware that 95% of all scouts will be next to useless at finding very specific players, or scouting anywhere you haven't a) added a country to the game save database, or b) run an active league (and you need youth leagues too).
    It wasn't aimed at poaching other clubs graduates as I do that anyway with a high JP scout - what I'd like is to be able to tell my "youth scout" to go and find players for my upcoming graduate list, so if I say I my preference is DC with Pace of 10+ then when my graduate list comes up there would be more chance of them being what I'm looking for - does that make sense?

    Basically scouting for my new youth team players - as with what happens in real life when scouts turn up to local under 9, 10, 11,12, 13, 14 and 15 games looking for talent for their academies.

  73. #73
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    A very good overhaul change to the youth system after many games...

    Very good job guys.

    So the better youth facilities are, the better chance of having more talented youth trials???

    or is the youth facilities quality is only for training purposes?

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispypaul View Post
    Surely this is just reflecting what happens in real life though?
    FM isn't real life. My comment is based on SIs more aggressive stereotyping of players and their positions, possibly leading to too large a bias towards certain positions and/or attributes within a given country.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by pn75 View Post
    It wasn't aimed at poaching other clubs graduates as I do that anyway with a high JP scout - what I'd like is to be able to tell my "youth scout" to go and find players for my upcoming graduate list, so if I say I my preference is DC with Pace of 10+ then when my graduate list comes up there would be more chance of them being what I'm looking for - does that make sense?

    Basically scouting for my new youth team players - as with what happens in real life when scouts turn up to local under 9, 10, 11,12, 13, 14 and 15 games looking for talent for their academies.
    The Graduates are not real until the game generates them. Youngest at a push 14 I would expect. So each club well go through the evaluation process and decided who to offer contracts to you should be able to offer these player a contract becuase effectivly they are still unattached. But by the time your scout finds everyone with 10+ Pace the majority will most prob have signed a contract. It's similar to like it is now but instead of being told of the influx of new youth, you decided who to pick from the list either there and then or after the trail period. In effect the Acadamy doesn't exist in the game the same has it is now. (I could be wrong but it's not in Miles Blog, could come under the section where he said theres more but we will have to wait for the game to find out for ourselves)

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    FM isn't real life. My comment is based on SIs more aggressive stereotyping of players and their positions, possibly leading to too large a bias towards certain positions and/or attributes within a given country.
    It reflects it though.

    Post 70 is more what I was thinking.

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    if you read back over the posts my SI you'll see that there won't be a stereotype, or at least they hope. It's just traits and a mold to begin with new gens.

    If I'm being cynical I see this going wayward, with Brazil having a pool of 36 world class full backs to choose from and no wingers (or something similar), until a patch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    Considering the game can be played over a great many years, restricting the types of players to a certain era, based on their nationally, seems odd.
    The "era" question was something similar to mine further up. Would love to hear from SI on this.

    Post 44.
    Last edited by tar_gniK; 15-09-2011 at 14:42.

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    Considering how heavily-weighted the match engine traditionally is towards high physical attributes, isn't this just going to lead to English clubs and players becoming even more dominant as the game goes on?

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    YES YES YES! The ability to save a few bucks in youth contracts and cherry pick the best prospects will make struggling lower league clubs a little easier to manage. I absolutely love the idea of an evaluation match as well. Top stuff.

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    'Positional traits' aside, will the tactics a team uses (including those set for youth team) influence the positions of the Youth Candidates?
    Last edited by pigfacemonkeyman; 15-09-2011 at 14:47. Reason: typo

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    like the sound of this and all the other new features. I have to say I am guilty of not developing in-club youth and normally buy from other clubs, or cash in on what I have, but would be good to have influence on potential new talent and to excellent idea to be able to see them in action before making decisions.

    Another quality addition to the game.....cannot wait to get my hands on a copy of the game!!!

    Nice one SI.
    !!!

    roll on 21st October !!

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    So, rather than having a group of 10 or so youths dropped on you at the beginning of the season, you'll get to pick from a group of 16 or so. Forgive me if I'm missing the obvious, but what's so good about that? Rather than just disposing of the rubbish youths after they have been put in the U18s, you now get to reject them and ensure that only the good ones get to the U18. Is that it? Doesn't seem that useful, what am I missing?

    DISCLAIMER: Despite the negative post I'm still nailed on to purchase FM12 on release day so please no flaming!

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    Check some of the posts from LLM players.


    EDIT: #65 & #80 for example.

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    I'm loving the new feature that allows us to pick the new season's youth players. You can see every season in FM11 which players will perhaps make it and which won't and yet your lumbered with them anyway. I mean i can see a slight problem if no one good comes through and for a season or two the youth and reserve teams look a bit bare.

    All in all if implemented correctly this could be a cracking new feature!

    But also with the youth players you need to sort out how greedy they are. I mentioned it in other threads but a no hoper asking for £2,000 a week? They'd get thrown not just out, but out a window for asking for that. And believe me, it's not just 1-2 a season, it's more like 7-8 players each year!!

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    I usually sorted the youth players by value. A 16 year old worth £2m would usually make it ok. Whereas a 16 year old worth €2k probably wouldn't.

    I think this will really draw on you to pick the best of the best, and not let that £2m 16 year old player go off. I imagine trialists don't get a value. So it will make it harder in picking out the better players.

    It just adds another bit of depth to the game. I don't think any manager just turned up one day 10 new footballers at the training ground. Surely the coaches of the youth academies make their recommendations to the manager and the manager then makes the decision based on coach and scout reports + the match against current youth sides. That really to me reflects reality and adds a bit more realism and depth to the game.

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    I keep getting confused with either tactics influence what positions you get or positon depth. The formation I'm playing with is a tactic that Claudio Raneiri was with Juventus DR-DRC-DLC-DL, DMRC-DMLC, MR, AML, STRC-STLC.

    So there is no need for me to have MCs unless I decided to change my tactic with is unlikely at the moment. So my team is sort on MCs which aspect has biggest pull, Tactics or Positon Depth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_no_7 View Post
    I'm loving the new feature that allows us to pick the new season's youth players. You can see every season in FM11 which players will perhaps make it and which won't and yet your lumbered with them anyway. I mean i can see a slight problem if no one good comes through and for a season or two the youth and reserve teams look a bit bare.

    All in all if implemented correctly this could be a cracking new feature!

    But also with the youth players you need to sort out how greedy they are. I mentioned it in other threads but a no hoper asking for £2,000 a week? They'd get thrown not just out, but out a window for asking for that. And believe me, it's not just 1-2 a season, it's more like 7-8 players each year!!
    The feature is allowing you to offer a Youth contract to these candidates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    I usually sorted the youth players by value. A 16 year old worth £2m would usually make it ok. Whereas a 16 year old worth €2k probably wouldn't.
    I think this will really draw on you to pick the best of the best, and not let that £2m 16 year old player go off. I imagine trialists don't get a value. So it will make it harder in picking out the better players.

    It just adds another bit of depth to the game. I don't think any manager just turned up one day 10 new footballers at the training ground. Surely the coaches of the youth academies make their recommendations to the manager and the manager then makes the decision based on coach and scout reports + the match against current youth sides. That really to me reflects reality and adds a bit more realism and depth to the game.
    I would be surprised if these candidates had values.

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    Something I was asking for years back, so definitely a step in the right direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    The feature is allowing you to offer a Youth contract to these candidates.
    That's exactly what I said later on in the post

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    I imagine trialists don't get a value. So it will make it harder in picking out the better players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    That's exactly what I said later on in the post
    Apologies all round.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanukki View Post
    EDIT/ADDITION: Also, with regard to the issues about national templates, and "eras" - it would be interesting to see the ability in a future version to choose your own youth system's 'templates' so that the 'national templates' become an aggregation of the youth systems in that country. This way, if Barcelona suddenly started (bizarrely) emphasize slow hulking target men, and other Spanish teams follow, it influences the development of new players and playing styles from Spain.
    Now this would be a great addition later on down the line. Being able to create a true Barca/Ajax system of playing which influences the youth setup is something that I've wanted for ages. Even so, I love what has been talked about in this section.

    And for those complaining that over time the national styles should be allowed to change, I'll argue that this a major shift in the style of a nation's play isn't something that happens often. You have Brazil who moved to wing-backs, yes, but then partner that with Argentina who STILL obsess about the #10 and playing 4-3-1-2. Even with watching Barca/Ajax/Spain in the modern era, there are a great many English managers, coaches and pundits/reporters who obsess about having great work effort, playing two up-top, using a "proper" #9 and everything else that dates back to the 40s. And don't forget, while the youth products might have a certain preference for short-passing (Spain), this doesn't mean the national team won't evolve after a while if their Spanish FA bring in someone who likes to play direct.

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    Ghana tends to produce a vastly different style of footballer than other West African sides. It is a physical reality that Ghanaians tend to be much shorter than the giants of Senegal, Mali, Ivory Coast ect.
    Because their rivals are bigger and stronger Ghanaian football has adapted to play a short passing high tempo game to take advantage of superior technique, first touch, and stamina.
    Their players tend to favour teamwork over individual flair and produce very strong midfielders.

    I hope one day we will be able to implement a club philosophy. I might with to encourage the youth academy to favour certain traits over others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoham View Post
    Is there a minimum number you have to takeon? You have to have enough players to have a team after all.I'm sure youth coaches IRL know certain players probably won't makeit, but they need to keep enough on to have a big enough squad.
    Surely there's no minimum; if any of your squads are short due to your decisions, the places will be filled with greys as always.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    Check some of the posts from LLM players.


    EDIT: #65 & #80 for example.
    Ah fair enough - I really need to have a bash at a LLM game in next year's game.

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    Must say I'm feeling very underwhelmed by this years additions. Just doesn't feel there's anything substantually different to FM2011, least excited I've been for a release.

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    I have a feeling that they are holding onto a big nugget of an improvement and either its going to be the last blog or we will have to find it ourselves

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    Which of the 800 updates/new features do you like the least?

    Seen as FM11 only had about 400 new features/updates - I think FM12 will be significantly changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Which of the 800 updates/new features do you like the least?

    Seen as FM11 only had about 400 new features/updates - I think FM12 will be significantly changed.
    How many of those 400 'changes' were actually meaningful, and not just a button being moved to a different position or some other rubbish?

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