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Thread: Official Blog Feedback - youth & newgens

  1. #101
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    Tell me the 800 updates an I'll give you the answer.

  2. #102
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    This is fantastic news, both the ability to scrap the young team if you are on the lower league and that you can pick which newgens you want in your squad on your off-season.

  3. #103
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    just one question, we must take control of the youth squad in order to have the choice to pick wich newgens will be on the team? Or even if we let that to the assist manager we will have the final word?

  4. #104
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    Just ain't pleasing people. They could do 8000 updates/new features and some people still wouldn't be impressed or feel it adds anything.

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    Personally I'm loving the changes, but I'm left with lots more questions...

    Before that though, I think people need to realise just what an "Academy" is when it's related to football.

    An academy is a place of academic achievement, or to put it in simple terms... it's a SCHOOL! Kids that go to a youth academy go there for their schooling.. In football the academy will have emphasis on football techniques and theories for sure but the students are still expected to study the usual subjects like maths, languages, history, geography, etc. I seem to recall that this year the academic results of football academia were amongst the highest in the country so the students are obviously not just "going through the motions" until they become highly paid professional footballers.

    When you have a club that doesn't have an academy, you still have a youth system of sorts and even a youth squad, the difference is...
    In a youth academy a club will sign multiple players at a very young age and teach them vital skills required to play at that club's standard.
    (taken from here). They get schooled like ordinary children, but they also get top quality football coaching with the above purpose in mind. Between the ages of 9 and 11 my nephew had trials with Man Utd, Leeds, Huddersfield and a couple of other clubs with the intention of going to their academies at 11 instead of mainstream high school. As it is, he actually changed sports and has since represented the county at youth level in that instead, go figure..

    So my questions.. I've recently started an experimental save with Barcelona and am really pleased at the quality of the youngsters within the club's system. My U19's has 9 players with a PA of 130 or greater which is high enough for them to be BBVA squad players/B team stars with many of them high enough potential to be stars in their own right. The B team has a further 10 players who have >130 potential which makes a total of 19 players who aren't even in the first team setup that could, and probably will, be part of the first-team in the future. Add those players to the first team and there is enough at the club to play for ten seasons or more at a similar level to the current squad, and that's if I sign nobody!!! Even the remaining youngsters are all of a high enough potential to play regularly for the B team so there's no real need for either team to buy anybody for some considerable time..


    Will FM12's revamped youth system reflect real-life in this way? Will the "intake" be of sufficient standard to ensure that the Barcelona legacy of breeding superstars will continue long into a save? (Or West Ham's, or Ajax, Sporting, et al..?). I don't want to be looking at 16 PA 90's next season when the youngster's average PA is currently >115, you know?

    Will the kids we have on trial automatically accept a standard youth deal or will there be those who know they're worth more straight away that would demand a higher deal? Are we going to get kids who know they're the next Messi who, basically, say if you don't give me X I'll go elsewhere, maybe even with a pushy agent already?

    Which brings me on to the kids at other clubs... presumably all the clubs in a country will have their own youth intake on trial at the same time, yes? Would we, like has been suggested, be able to send our best scout along to them and poach some of the better ones (assuming that they would join our club, of course)?

    And then what happens to those players who aren't given a youth contract at the club they've trialled with? Do they get trials elsewhere? Is there a second stage to it or will those who get rejected just disappear into the ether?

    Assuming that we can poach kids form other clubs, will there be a transfer tribunal of sorts to set transfer fees and future incentives like there would be IRL or are we free to nick any kid we like regardless?

    Like I said, I love the changes, but it's left me with more questions than answers
    Last edited by Lazaru5; 15-09-2011 at 17:19.

  6. #106
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    Great work, loving the ideas of youth things.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Just ain't pleasing people. They could do 8000 updates/new features and some people still wouldn't be impressed or feel it adds anything.
    I thought the big complaint before was that there were too many new features...

    The changes to the youth sound good, interested to see how it actually plays out

  8. #108
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    Glad to hear the youth system has been revamped and looking forward to seeing how it plays out. I could never make it a meaningful part of development in FM2010 or 2011 - there was only the occasional backup player I decided to take on, once in a blue moon - so hopefully I can work out a way to make it useful in the next release!
    One thing I'd like to see would be more of the numerous 'junk' players at the bigger clubs, who end up playing down three or more divisions, actually coming through in the teams where they're going to potentially be first team players. Instead of what we have now - League One and Two being filled with ex-EPL youth rejects and the Conference being filled with ex-Championship youth rejects, and so on. Don't know if the 'revolution' will change things to this extent, but it sure would be wonderful.

  9. #109
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    I'm terrified what english players are gonna look like....

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    As was said already, not all players will be from that mold of traits. But a majority will. The likes of Spain they do have a short passing game, so it would make sense. But every now and then you'll get a Xabi Alonso, which is probably the only long-range passer (or a small %) of players in the Spain squad that are good at that.
    But that's the national squad, you look through the top league and more importantly the second tier and do you really think that a high % of player are technically gifted and play short passing football?

    I'll give you some examples of whati mean with the 2 teams I support.

    Man Utd British players with flair - Ashley Young, Rooney, Tom Cleverley Phil Jones/Rio Ferdinand/Chris Smalling (for centre backs these all possess good flair) and of course Ryan Giggs.
    Tranmere Rovers with flair and all English - Robinson, McGurk and Devaney and just left us Dale Jennings.

    Now that's a fair proportion of these teams English/British players which I would guess the new national traits would eliminate because we're supposed not to get too many flair players.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by dazbowski View Post
    But that's the national squad, you look through the top league and more importantly the second tier and do you really think that a high % of player are technically gifted and play short passing football?

    I'll give you some examples of whati mean with the 2 teams I support.

    Man Utd British players with flair - Ashley Young, Rooney, Tom Cleverley Phil Jones/Rio Ferdinand/Chris Smalling (for centre backs these all possess good flair) and of course Ryan Giggs.
    Tranmere Rovers with flair and all English - Robinson, McGurk and Devaney and just left us Dale Jennings.

    Now that's a fair proportion of these teams English/British players which I would guess the new national traits would eliminate because we're supposed not to get too many flair players.
    Why would it eliminate it? trait doesnt mean every single player will be like that

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    Why would it eliminate it? trait doesnt mean every single player will be like that
    I don't think it will eliminate it but it could go too far, saying flair is not a trait in an English player and hence getting one or two in a blue moon is not correct.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by digsy11 View Post
    Must say I'm feeling very underwhelmed by this years additions. Just doesn't feel there's anything substantually different to FM2011, least excited I've been for a release.
    I understand and somewhat share that sentiment. But for me its the countless small changes that add up into a worthwhile update. For example, consider the news item that appears when someone offers to loan one of your players. It used to be that the message just said "Team A have offered to loan player B". Then in the next version it would additionally tell you where the player would fit in in the loanee team (ie first team etc), which was massively more useful. Then in the next version the option to reject or accept the offer was put onto the news item itself, so you didn't have to view the offer to reject or accept it etc. All those small improvements add up.

    I think I remember seeing ages ago that SI keep a database of all community suggestions for improvements - which I guess is why each new version has lots of these small improvements. Good call SI

    Still it would be nice to see a new feature on the scale of the addition of the tactic creator....

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by dazbowski View Post
    I don't think it will eliminate it but it could go too far, saying flair is not a trait in an English player and hence getting one or two in a blue moon is not correct.
    But it may not go too far, as Riz already said, its not a blanket thing. Guess we'll just have to see first

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    Quote Originally Posted by themadsheep2001 View Post
    But it may not go too far, as Riz already said, its not a blanket thing. Guess we'll just have to see first
    Indeed we will!

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    England have had quite a few flair players in my time; from memory players like Le Tissier, Gascoigne, Waddle, Hoddle, Barnes, McManaman, Beardsley, Joe Cole and as an Arsenal fan in the '80's, Rocastle and Merson. I know you could maybe argue the inclusion of some of these players, but the point is I think England does produce flair players.

    I'm actually a fan of the idea of country traits, but the difficulty comes for me in that it's often cyclical rather than permanent. Like I said earlier, Brazil formerly played with wingers, but not know. For decades for example Italy had phenomenal defenders, not so now though. The players I listed for England all came through within 10 or so years of each other, but now there are hardly any flair players imo.

    I think it's difficult to implement the national traits in the game, because I don't think time and fashions feature in the game world- is this right, or do things, like formations and preferred player types change as the game progresses?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazbowski View Post
    But that's the national squad, you look through the top league and more importantly the second tier and do you really think that a high % of player are technically gifted and play short passing football?

    I'll give you some examples of whati mean with the 2 teams I support.

    Man Utd British players with flair - Ashley Young, Rooney, Tom Cleverley Phil Jones/Rio Ferdinand/Chris Smalling (for centre backs these all possess good flair) and of course Ryan Giggs.
    Tranmere Rovers with flair and all English - Robinson, McGurk and Devaney and just left us Dale Jennings.

    Now that's a fair proportion of these teams English/British players which I would guess the new national traits would eliminate because we're supposed not to get too many flair players.
    Flair is the ability to do the unexpected. The only player on that list of United players that does that is Rooney - Young does the feints that you expect from a winger. Even looking back through the history of the England team the only flair players that spring to mind are Waddle and Gazza.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Zar View Post
    Flair is the ability to do the unexpected. The only player on that list of United players that does that is Rooney - Young does the feints that you expect from a winger. Even looking back through the history of the England team the only flair players that spring to mind are Waddle and Gazza.
    I'd disagree, I'd say most if not all them players have flair. Which Brazilian players now have this ability then?

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by pigfacemonkeyman View Post
    'Positional traits' aside, will the tactics a team uses (including those set for youth team) influence the positions of the Youth Candidates?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazaru5 View Post
    Will FM12's revamped youth system reflect real-life in this way? Will the "intake" be of sufficient standard to ensure that the Barcelona legacy of breeding superstars will continue long into a save? (Or West Ham's, or Ajax, Sporting, et al..?). I don't want to be looking at 16 PA 90's next season when the youngster's average PA is currently >115, you know?
    The new systems sounds like a major improvement. I too am wondering if the player intake reflects a certain club's playing style. Take the 4-3-3 which seems hardcoded into Ajax's DNA (although arguably the last couple of coaches have abandoned it in favour of a 4-4-2), would this lead to a higher chance of getting 'typical Ajax wingers' in comparison to other Dutch clubs?

    Also, I wonder what (if any) effect will (youth) coaches' preferences and playing styles will have on 1) the newgens that come in and 2) the way they develop, as now I have yet to see evidence suggesting any influence on these aspects at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazbowski View Post
    I'd disagree, I'd say most if not all them players have flair. Which Brazilian players now have this ability then?
    Any of their front four: Neymar, Ganso, Robinho, Pato

  21. #121
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    Now this is genuinely exciting to me. First features I've heard about that sound worth the annual price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riz Remes View Post
    Things like these are never a "blanket thing". They are called traits or templates because they are used as guidelines for the creation of newgens to model some real life tendencies. As in real life, not all players follow these tendencies so there can and will definitely be exceptions to the stereotypical players. Not all players are made from the same mold even if they come from the same nation, but in order to create order from chaos that is newgen creation, we need to have some level of traits to guide the process along
    Suggestion:

    Let the template be based on successful teams within the country only at the time.

    It would be silly to not expect spain to produce more of "Messi" or "Xavi" or "C. Ronaldo", in the same way it would be silly to not expect English regens to look like "Rooney" or "Gerard" or "Giggs". This is not because of their nationality but because of how they play for the most successful teams of their respective country at the time.

    So if a Manager takes over Sir Alex at Man Utd for example, plays a Highly Successful 3-4-3 (or some weird formation) for many years, one should expect that regens from England would have roles suitable to this formation. This is how the real world works.

    As Managers change, so should the formations, and do should regens!
    Last edited by Simply... Awesome!; 15-09-2011 at 19:55. Reason: missing stuff

  23. #123
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    what Riz is on about is national newgens. the fact that C. Ronaldo is Portuguese and Messi Argentinian. Whilst Messi start his carrer at Barca he was scouted in Argentina at a young age becuase of the way they play has youngsters. C. Ronaldo sarted out in Sporting and Ronney at Everton. Since the emergence of the spainish national team and barcelona with their style of play. Youngsters in this country are encouraged to play the same way. Unlike years ago where they were forced to concentrate on Physique and Strenght. Even though the youngsters in this country are starting to be told to play a different way becuase of the Spanish it is not to do with the way top clubs play or what formation they use dictates what new youngsters will do.

    The manager of what ever club the youngster is at dictates the way the youngster plays and develops them thats how it happens in th real world. According to your suggestion, low league teams in the conference that concentrate on defending on a 5-3-2 for arguments sake will have to change to what was it 3-4-3 because its new youth players are going to play like that becuase thats what Man Utd, Man City play etc. So no matter what the managers prefered style of play is, he has to follow the top teams because thats how the youngster are designed.

  24. #124
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    Moderate excitement from me. It has potential but if we get to pick which of twenty youth players we want but they all have PA 100 while I'm already managing in the championship its not much of a choice is it.
    Now if there was twice as many newgens as retires generated and the AI had to make choices, and the AI could look at attribute distribution and discard the freaks that are thrown up. The midget CBs, the FB who cant run etc now that would be something to get excited about.

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    Will you be able to see other teams newgens before they offer them contracts, perhaps being able to poach them ala Fabregas, Pique, Pogba etc.

  26. #126
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    do we even know if the AI teams get to select their newgens and discard the rest?

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    Quote Originally Posted by whilewolf View Post
    do we even know if the AI teams get to select their newgens and discard the rest?
    I would have thought so but maybe not like humans unless the AI team building and all that has been improved

  28. #128
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    Wow I am really impressed with this. I have been a bit sceptical about FM12 but this news alone has left me smiling... and craving for more. A lot of stuff that I've wanted to see for many versions. Small stuff but really important. The game is striving for realism after all.

    Especially this stuff is pleasing to see:

    The same can also be said of a players mental attributes. Players in Brazil, due to the way they grow up playing the game, are more likely to have flair. Players in Spain are more likely to play a short passing game. All of these traits are now reflected better in game.
    Always annoyed me that Brazil's top players in 2020 were (A)MRLs and the NT would still play 4-2-2-2. Ok, that's more up to rigid AI managing, but it's still unrealistic that those players chose to play as wingers and not be nudged to wing-backs or strikers in their youth.

    There’s also been a big improvement in the way names are generated for all youth players, particularly in countries where there are lots of regions and names tend to be region specific.
    Maybe a chance to see a Catalan name come up Barca ranks?

  29. #129
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    Can other teams nick your players whilst they are on trial?
    Last edited by seanydude; 16-09-2011 at 00:44.

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    As an American i find the "traits" development worrying. One of the biggest negatives that the game has exhibited in recent years is a complete inability to project the growth of soccer in the states. The growth of the game in terms of popularity and skill just doesnt happen. The result is that in long term games the quality of american players actually decreases such that there just arent players the level of holden, dempsey, donovan being produced. there should be an increase in the talent level not a decline. if current stereotypes about american players are locked in from the start there wont be demspey or holden like players. instead there will likely be more Michael Bradley like players who run around with high work rate and no technique. also, there were not nearly enough dual nationality new gens being produced. there are a lot of german american and mexican american kids that are being forced to choose one country or the other to represent. chandler, isaac acuna, joe corona, jermaine jones are just some examples.

    finally, has the mls academy system been implemented?

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    I'd like to know the answer to the American question too. Will MLS clubs have academies or rely on the draft?

  32. #132
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    Did SI notice '500 Star Program'?
    '500 Star Program' is the Chinese Football Association over the next five years, 500 young people sending power to the European Footballer of the post-graduate study

    http://www.f-paper.com/?i784438-Liuy...4-players-home
    http://www.f-paper.com/?i886947-Phot...%22-C-Luo-home
    Last edited by master_wu; 16-09-2011 at 07:50.

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    There’s also been a big improvement in the way names are generated for all youth players, particularly in countries where there are lots of regions and names tend to be region specific.
    This is a really good change (hopefully) as in my 2020 game there are 4 members of the Brazil first 11 all called Da Silva, some more variation would be more than welcome.

    It's nice to see national 'traits' aswell as this is something that I think will add to the game. However I hope that there maybe some way to change and modify those traits through the actions of the national teams and/or the big clubs in the countries leagues otherwise I fear that the game, especially at international level, may become quite stale with countries like Spain and Germany dominating with thier higher technical ability over other nations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    just one question, we must take control of the youth squad in order to have the choice to pick wich newgens will be on the team? Or even if we let that to the assist manager we will have the final word?
    the way i read it you must take control of them to choose which one get the trials, if not the assman does and you wont have a choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by damo666 View Post
    the way i read it you must take control of them to choose which one get the trials, if not the assman does and you wont have a choice.
    Thats too bad! I would like to have the choice to not see the youth games and control the tactics etc etc, but get access to the reports and have the final word on wich youth players should be on the team, or wich players i'll get a trial opportunity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzer Soze View Post
    just one question, we must take control of the youth squad in order to have the choice to pick wich newgens will be on the team? Or even if we let that to the assist manager we will have the final word?
    No, you don't need to take control of the youth squad in order to select which of the youth candidates get offered a proper youth contract.

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    The way it works is that you'll get a separate squad added at the end of the season, a youth squad.

    The players will be separate from the U18s.

    You'll then get to access and pick the tactics that both use.

    You can still get your ass man to take charge of the game and view the result.

    The fact is that the Youth squad will only be trialists.

    If you decide to take them into the U18s then you have to offer them a contract - at which point they'll from the Youth Squad to the U18s. Anyone not offered a contract will go back on the market.

    It was all explained earlier.

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    Thaks Riz Remes and Eugene Tyson.

    This is great!

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    One thing about this that needs addressing is not so much national traits but rather the attributes newgens in certain positions get. For instance, its really rare to find a fast winger, or an AMC with good technique and passing. Actually high pace ratings in young regens is very rare and its not something that should necessarily develop.

    Along with this mismatch in attributes for positions is the rarity of players with half positions coming through. There are very rarely any AMC\FW (Rooney, Aguero style) or Wing Backs,(every full back now) AML, AMR or AMC players generated (or players comfortable playing in any of those roles - David Silva style). 90% of players out there dont fit the template of ST, CM or LB/RB anymore, yet thats all we see with regens. Particularly there needs to be more high technique AMC's generated as they are more prevelent in todays game.

    I know we can train them there but players should be born in to fully fledged positions instead of being locked into non-descript static roles - its unrealistic. Also, there is not much point in training them sometimes because despite the positional rating they very raraly have the required attributes to play there.

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    Well Chris Smalling was brought up through the ranks as DC but he's found a new role in a RB position.

    It's fine for new players to have a role when being developed, like they do in FM. I think it's important for the manager to say "Yeh he'd be better at AMC or AMR or AML or ST" etc.

    Thiery Henry started out as a winger, then went on to be one of the best strikers in the Prem.

    Alan Smith went from being a Striker to a Midfielder (which essentially killed his career )

    Some players start as Defenders and end up playing as Strikers.


    So in FM12 you might get a really good Wing Back - but if you look at their stats and their finishing is high, their positioning etc. you might think, well I'll train this guy as a Striker. They might have fast pace, good crossing, poor tackling, well train them as a winger.



    I can see this new system as being a challenge as to getting the best out of the players you have coming through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ? View Post
    One thing about this that needs addressing is not so much national traits but rather the attributes newgens in certain positions get. For instance, its really rare to find a fast winger, or an AMC with good technique and passing. Actually high pace ratings in young regens is very rare and its not something that should necessarily develop.

    Along with this mismatch in attributes for positions is the rarity of players with half positions coming through. There are very rarely any AMC\FW (Rooney, Aguero style) or Wing Backs,(every full back now) AML, AMR or AMC players generated (or players comfortable playing in any of those roles - David Silva style). 90% of players out there dont fit the template of ST, CM or LB/RB anymore, yet thats all we see with regens. Particularly there needs to be more high technique AMC's generated as they are more prevelent in todays game.

    I know we can train them there but players should be born in to fully fledged positions instead of being locked into non-descript static roles - its unrealistic. Also, there is not much point in training them sometimes because despite the positional rating they very raraly have the required attributes to play there.
    I have highlighted this paragraph because what happens in the game is the same has real life, Rooney started out has a ST and was trained to be a AMC, Technique is Trainable I have a regen with 16 technique come through the ranks not every AMC in the real life started with a high level of technical ability. Coaches would see that a player has ok technique and helps develop that through training. Players are born into Set roles and then developed to play in others do you honestly think Dani Alves when he was a little boy in the sticks of Brazil said I know I want to be a D/WB/M/AMR or do you think he said I want to be a DR and his manager noticed his attacking ability and then trained him to play higher and high up the pitch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Well Chris Smalling was brought up through the ranks as DC but he's found a new role in a RB position.

    It's fine for new players to have a role when being developed, like they do in FM. I think it's important for the manager to say "Yeh he'd be better at AMC or AMR or AML or ST" etc.

    Thiery Henry started out as a winger, then went on to be one of the best strikers in the Prem.

    Alan Smith went from being a Striker to a Midfielder (which essentially killed his career )

    Some players start as Defenders and end up playing as Strikers.


    So in FM12 you might get a really good Wing Back - but if you look at their stats and their finishing is high, their positioning etc. you might think, well I'll train this guy as a Striker. They might have fast pace, good crossing, poor tackling, well train them as a winger.



    I can see this new system as being a challenge as to getting the best out of the players you have coming through.
    How good would Thiery Henry have been if he was made to forego 10% of his training throughout his career? The impact positional training has on general training should be restricted to areas less important to the new position.

    How can training Chris Smalling as right back cause him to lose pace for example? This could happen in FM.

    I think there should be a different way of "paying" for this new position, make it take longer for players with low adaptability, for example, or lock out certain categories/attributes from the drop in general training, also I would like to see every player retain any position gained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Welsh Lad View Post
    I have highlighted this paragraph because what happens in the game is the same has real life, Rooney started out has a ST and was trained to be a AMC, Technique is Trainable I have a regen with 16 technique come through the ranks not every AMC in the real life started with a high level of technical ability. Coaches would see that a player has ok technique and helps develop that through training. Players are born into Set roles and then developed to play in others do you honestly think Dani Alves when he was a little boy in the sticks of Brazil said I know I want to be a D/WB/M/AMR or do you think he said I want to be a DR and his manager noticed his attacking ability and then trained him to play higher and high up the pitch.
    OK, lets put this another way (cause you are dead wrong).

    When we talk about a striker, we mean someone who leads the line, has good finishing, and rarely drops deep (Hernandez, Shearer, Ferdinand, etc etc). Rooney, Aguero, Tevez, Totti, Villa, etc are not and have never been ST in the FM sense of the word. It was not a case of someone training them at 16 to drop deep and become a deep lying foward, it comes naturally. Its a position as valid as ST, CM or whatever else you want to say.

    I seen Rooney at 14 for instance and he played exactly as he does now. Have a look at the Euro U-17's and tell me players in that dont have positions largely defined? We cant tell a Samir Nasri from a Claude Makalele?? Its kind of like saying that players dont know if they are offensive or defensive by the age of 16

    16 is the age of most FM regens so if half positions are defined by then IRL then why not in the game? Even easier for you would be to do a search in FM for all non-regen 16 year olds and see what kind of positions they have - any that have been researched peoperly will have half positions.

    Dani Alves -> Actually started as a an AMR and was converted into a DR\WBR ie: attacking right back as per Brazilian tradition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    So in FM12 you might get a really good Wing Back - but if you look at their stats and their finishing is high, their positioning etc. you might think, well I'll train this guy as a Striker. They might have fast pace, good crossing, poor tackling, well train them as a winger.
    The argument is that the youth coaches should have seen this beforehand. As RBKalle has said many times, a very fast youth player will likely be a winger - you will generally not find extremely quick defensive midfielders as youth players, since they would be likely placed on the wing. If not, then there had better be a good reason (i.e. he's a brilliant thinker and his qualities are better in the middle), or your youth team coaches are absolute idiots.

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    The arguments in England for wing backs alone being young and fast, Ashley Cole, Glen Johnston, Kieran Gibbs, Gareth Bale and a few others spring to mind.

    It was Arsene Wenger who turned Henry into a Striker. I don't recall anything about coaches being involved in that decision, but then again I don't know the inner workings of Arsenal or what transpired between the coaching staff and management.


    I would like more feedback from the youth coaches and their input on how a player is developing, that's a good idea.


    I'm already doing that retraining thing in FM11 and I find it very useful. Especially when you're on a shoe-string budget and you're lacking a role in the team. I retrain players into different positions by checking their stats and pushing them into those roles.

    Like in my current Leeds game, I have Phil Jones. He's now trained to play, DL, DC, DR, DM, ML, MC, MR - he's a brilliant utility player and he's the captain. I can play him anywhere in the 8 positions, and it's extremely useful as I am rotating players based on Condition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ? View Post
    OK, lets put this another way (cause you are dead wrong).

    When we talk about a striker, we mean someone who leads the line, has good finishing, and rarely drops deep (Hernandez, Shearer, Ferdinand, etc etc). Rooney, Aguero, Tevez, Totti, Villa, etc are not and have never been ST in the FM sense of the word. It was not a case of someone training them at 16 to drop deep and become a deep lying foward, it comes naturally. Its a position as valid as ST, CM or whatever else you want to say.

    I seen Rooney at 14 for instance and he played exactly as he does now. Have a look at the Euro U-17's and tell me players in that dont have positions largely defined? We cant tell a Samir Nasri from a Claude Makalele?? Its kind of like saying that players dont know if they are offensive or defensive by the age of 16

    16 is the age of most FM regens so if half positions are defined by then IRL then why not in the game? Even easier for you would be to do a search in FM for all non-regen 16 year olds and see what kind of positions they have - any that have been researched peoperly will have half positions.

    Dani Alves -> Actually started as a an AMR and was converted into a DR\WBR ie: attacking right back as per Brazilian tradition.
    OK so in FM sense Rooney is not an out and out striker in FM Sense in FM when he was at Everton he was set has a ST only in later series has he developed to accomodate an AMC role. I agree that most of this positional work is done before the age of 16 but to say has you said in your first post players are born mutli-positional shall we say I still think is off the mark.

    I coach my locals U14s team we have players that come in and when you ask them what positon to the play some will say Centre Midfield, so when watching them in training matches, We will notice wether they are good at tackling and naturaly don't push foward (PPM), or they may not be so good at tackling and always like to push on(PPM). So has coaches we can take one to the said and say right I'm going to train you to become a natural DMC (Makalele) and take the other one to the side and say I'm going to train you to become an AMC (Nasri).

    This applies with Roooney when asked has a youngster what position do you play he would have said ST not 'well you see I can play as a striker and an atticking midfielder and if needed I can learn to become a winger' has coaches you can see if a ST has a tendancy to come deep to get the ball (PPM) has good passing ability and good vision, so to use this effectivlely you train him to play an AMC role.

    I think there are not enough 14 year old regens coming into the team so you will have more time to develop these positions before you have to start thinking of loaning them out, so you will have 4 years instead of 2.

    OK I got Alves' starting position wrong but it was just for an example.

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    first i would like to say that this improvements sound great, but I'm not optimistic that this will apply to smaller countries.
    for an example, i allways play with the same teams from serbia, romania, greece and belarus and each game is at least 7 seasons long.
    and reason for me to stop playing each of those saves are that after 5-7 season, with my youth system is State of the art, with youth excellent coaches , excellent youth recruitment and still getting rubbish players with only maybe 1 player at average level as are youth players at the start of the game.
    i really hope that things are gonna change from FM2012 and that we, player from smaller country, can enjoy the game with teams from our home countries!
    cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazaru5 View Post
    Personally I'm loving the changes, but I'm left with lots more questions...

    Before that though, I think people need to realise just what an "Academy" is when it's related to football.

    An academy is a place of academic achievement, or to put it in simple terms... it's a SCHOOL! Kids that go to a youth academy go there for their schooling.. In football the academy will have emphasis on football techniques and theories for sure but the students are still expected to study the usual subjects like maths, languages, history, geography, etc. I seem to recall that this year the academic results of football academia were amongst the highest in the country so the students are obviously not just "going through the motions" until they become highly paid professional footballers.

    When you have a club that doesn't have an academy, you still have a youth system of sorts and even a youth squad, the difference is...
    (taken from here). They get schooled like ordinary children, but they also get top quality football coaching with the above purpose in mind. Between the ages of 9 and 11 my nephew had trials with Man Utd, Leeds, Huddersfield and a couple of other clubs with the intention of going to their academies at 11 instead of mainstream high school. As it is, he actually changed sports and has since represented the county at youth level in that instead, go figure..

    So my questions.. I've recently started an experimental save with Barcelona and am really pleased at the quality of the youngsters within the club's system. My U19's has 9 players with a PA of 130 or greater which is high enough for them to be BBVA squad players/B team stars with many of them high enough potential to be stars in their own right. The B team has a further 10 players who have >130 potential which makes a total of 19 players who aren't even in the first team setup that could, and probably will, be part of the first-team in the future. Add those players to the first team and there is enough at the club to play for ten seasons or more at a similar level to the current squad, and that's if I sign nobody!!! Even the remaining youngsters are all of a high enough potential to play regularly for the B team so there's no real need for either team to buy anybody for some considerable time..


    Will FM12's revamped youth system reflect real-life in this way? Will the "intake" be of sufficient standard to ensure that the Barcelona legacy of breeding superstars will continue long into a save? (Or West Ham's, or Ajax, Sporting, et al..?). I don't want to be looking at 16 PA 90's next season when the youngster's average PA is currently >115, you know?

    Will the kids we have on trial automatically accept a standard youth deal or will there be those who know they're worth more straight away that would demand a higher deal? Are we going to get kids who know they're the next Messi who, basically, say if you don't give me X I'll go elsewhere, maybe even with a pushy agent already?

    Which brings me on to the kids at other clubs... presumably all the clubs in a country will have their own youth intake on trial at the same time, yes? Would we, like has been suggested, be able to send our best scout along to them and poach some of the better ones (assuming that they would join our club, of course)?

    And then what happens to those players who aren't given a youth contract at the club they've trialled with? Do they get trials elsewhere? Is there a second stage to it or will those who get rejected just disappear into the ether?

    Assuming that we can poach kids form other clubs, will there be a transfer tribunal of sorts to set transfer fees and future incentives like there would be IRL or are we free to nick any kid we like regardless?


    Like I said, I love the changes, but it's left me with more questions than answers
    I'd really like to know the answers to these questions, SI, anybody?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    The arguments in England for wing backs alone being young and fast, Ashley Cole, Glen Johnston, Kieran Gibbs, Gareth Bale and a few others spring to mind.
    Not all fast players become wingers, but it is likely that it happens - how many wingers in their prime are slow?

    Gibbs in particular was a defensive midfielder/left-winger as a youngster, whilst Bale has played more on the wing for Spurs in the last few seasons.

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    David Beckham played right midfield, not the fastest on the block. Probably the most famous example.

    Yes that's true. As I say if I find a player in my youth team that's got the stats to backup being a winger rather than wing back, then I train them for that position.

    Gibbs was a winger, then turned out he was good at tackling, and plays a wing back role now.

    And Bale started as a left back, and has moved to midfield, as he is a good dribbler, fast and good crossing.


    I'm just saying, because a player comes into the game as a regen as a certain position, doesn't mean he has to stay there. You can retrain them to positions that suit their stats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Not all fast players become wingers, but it is likely that it happens - how many wingers in their prime are slow?

    Gibbs in particular was a defensive midfielder/left-winger as a youngster, whilst Bale has played more on the wing for Spurs in the last few seasons.
    Yep and how many regen MR/L's in FM are slow? Almost all of them. How many can dribble? Almost none

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    I do think it should be slightly easier to retrain a player to be a 'natural' in a given position, but that's kind of off the point. One of the greatest joys I had in FM11 was training two fast young youth strikers who were good at dribbling, who would otherwise have been surplus to requirements, to play at AML and AMR. I chose them for these roles as they were strongly right-footed and left-footed respectively, so I could deploy them as Inside Forwards. Turning them from red to bright green in those positions over several years between 18-21 or so was the most fun I've had with youth development in a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shake Appeal View Post
    I do think it should be slightly easier to retrain a player to be a 'natural' in a given position, but that's kind of off the point. One of the greatest joys I had in FM11 was training two fast young youth strikers who were good at dribbling, who would otherwise have been surplus to requirements, to play at AML and AMR. I chose them for these roles as they were strongly right-footed and left-footed respectively, so I could deploy them as Inside Forwards. Turning them from red to bright green in those positions over several years between 18-21 or so was the most fun I've had with youth development in a while.
    I agree, I feel the ones who critisize the amount of natural multi-positional regens, are the ones that even though they may enjoy training the next big star don't want to get to involved in the early development by looking at players and see in where they are best suited to play attribute wise not just where they naturally play. They want the game to automatically tell them that the the player even though naturally a winger can also play up front or vise virsa.

    The problem is not the amount of multi-positional regens its the AI's lack of ability to do it has good has human managers. Youngsters who come through AI teams are less likely to be trained to play in different positions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazbowski View Post
    Not too happy with this, by this I mean national traits. It was supposed to be in FM11 and really didn't work well. Someone mentioned above, I hope this isn't a blanket thing and there will still be flair players from England and tough tackling defensive mids from Brazil. I fear for this I really do.
    Hmm, I have concerns that it might lead to the game becoming 'dated' in long term games. Who's to say what Nations will be known for 10 years from now? France had a sea change where they suddenly developed highly technical players for a generation, before falling back into the physical mould. Likewise 10 years ago Brazil was all about its attacking flair players, yet now its producing some very high quality defensive players.

    Germany 10 years ago was known for its mentally tough players, yet now its producing very highly technical players too.

    If the traits are hard coded its going to lead to some stale long term games. Hopefully the random factor is good enough to keep it interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    David Beckham played right midfield, not the fastest on the block. Probably the most famous example.
    I'm trying to stress that isolated examples are not always meaningful - the majority of wingers are quick, and the majority of quick players are wingers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene Tyson View Post
    Gibbs was a winger, then turned out he was good at tackling, and plays a wing back role now.

    And Bale started as a left back, and has moved to midfield, as he is a good dribbler, fast and good crossing.

    I'm just saying, because a player comes into the game as a regen as a certain position, doesn't mean he has to stay there. You can retrain them to positions that suit their stats.
    This is true, but then again blatantly-obvious cases should have been ironed out as youngsters. If someone is quick, they will likely know something about playing on the wing through youth days, where the difference between players is a lot less, and positional knowledge is less set in stone. It's not uncommon for young players to have bizarre positional graphs compared with experienced veterans - therefore if a youth player is likely to be good in position X, they should know something in that area already. It is then up to the manager to either fine-tune it or do something different. But this would have been set in motion at youth level - there's possibly 5-6 years of development and monitoring there (join at 9, youth contract at 14-15).

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    Does this happen for every club, every year - even for AI clubs?

    If so, and they appear in a "new squad" list - is it possible to scout/sign potential youth signings from other clubs before those clubs are able to sign them? Or are the potential new recruits only visible to the club they are effectively trialing for?

    What I mean is, if - like you say in the blog - they are able to play in some youth matches, if I or my scout were to watch the match and think that the player was good enough, would I be able to sign him before he has a chance to sign for the opposing club?

    Sorry if that seems muddled and confusing, I couldn't think of a better way to word it at this time of night!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave80 View Post
    Does this happen for every club, every year - even for AI clubs?

    If so, and they appear in a "new squad" list - is it possible to scout/sign potential youth signings from other clubs before those clubs are able to sign them? Or are the potential new recruits only visible to the club they are effectively trialing for?

    What I mean is, if - like you say in the blog - they are able to play in some youth matches, if I or my scout were to watch the match and think that the player was good enough, would I be able to sign him before he has a chance to sign for the opposing club?

    Sorry if that seems muddled and confusing, I couldn't think of a better way to word it at this time of night!
    I understand it fine and it would be a far more realistic way of handling these new youth players because bigger clubs often approach the youngsters of smaller clubs before they sign youth contracts. I can name a few youngsters at Watford who have had approaches from larger clubs before they've signed youth contracts, luckily most of them were offered and signed a youth contract and some even a pro-deal with Watford.

    What I am more interested in is whether these unsigned youngsters will disappear if they've not been offered youth contracts at their teams or will they go through the exit trials and sign with another club like Marvin Sordell did.

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    Good news but in the fa rules every professional club need a youth academy. So in the game how would it be possible to get rid of them if that's againt the official rules? Forexample look at crawley town years ago they never had a youth academy but they were forced to do open trials by the fa

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    Quote Originally Posted by TJJESSE View Post
    Good news but in the fa rules every professional club need a youth academy. So in the game how would it be possible to get rid of them if that's againt the official rules? Forexample look at crawley town years ago they never had a youth academy but they were forced to do open trials by the fa
    I think you will find that isn't true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spankie View Post
    I understand it fine and it would be a far more realistic way of handling these new youth players because bigger clubs often approach the youngsters of smaller clubs before they sign youth contracts. I can name a few youngsters at Watford who have had approaches from larger clubs before they've signed youth contracts, luckily most of them were offered and signed a youth contract and some even a pro-deal with Watford.

    What I am more interested in is whether these unsigned youngsters will disappear if they've not been offered youth contracts at their teams or will they go through the exit trials and sign with another club like Marvin Sordell did.
    Any Youth player that doesn't get a contract after the trail period will go onto the transfer list has free agents, therefore allowing any club to go in for them.

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    A thing that annoyed me in the versions prior to FM2011 is the regen names for Belgian people. Most regen names were either spanish (FM2008) or german(FM2009&10). FM 2011 surprised me with a perfect mix between "native" Belgian names and immigrant names from predominantly Italy, Morocco, Turkey and DR Congo. FM12 apparantly has a more region specific name generation and I just hope the Belgians are not affected like they were in the past. I played a save game in FM11 that streches out over 30 seasons now and I'm still not bored of it. I couldn't do this in FM10 as the regen names started to annoy me in the 5th season already.

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    I have concerns regarding the newgen/regen system. Newgen names has never been an issue for me; personally, I couldn't care less if the names sound authentic or not. This is a trivial addition, which is fine, as long as the major problems with the system have been addressed - namely, the quality of newgens.

    The main problem is that not enough good players appear in the game after a certain point. As an example, playing as Arsenal in FM11, having reached say 2017-18, I went to look for promising young (16, 17, 18 year old) English players. To my surprise, there were none! The players in the england under 21 squad were mediocre at best, certainly not up to the standards I was looking for. If you look at the current state of the English game, there are always quality young players coming through and challenging for a place in the England senior squad - the likes of Wilshere and Henderson last season, and Jones, Smalling, Cleverley and Welbeck this season. Looking ahead, I expect to see Chamberlain, Frimpong, McEachran, Wickham, Barkley etc coming through in the next few years. I very much doubt this conveyor belt of talent will stop producing in the next 5 years. In short, there should be at least 3-4 quality English newgens appearing every season.

    The situation is slightly better with foreign players, but still not what it should be. Of all the youth players I've brought to the club, I'd say about 95% are foreign players, and of the 5% British, they've all failed to make the grade. And it can't be that I'm not nurturing them correctly, because about 50% of my youth signings develop into quality players who either make it into my first team or are sold on for £10-25m.

    Also, with a youth setup and recruitment like Arsenal's, I would expect us to have the pick of the young players from the London area at least. Unfortunately, none of the youth players who have come up through the ranks have ever 'made it' and most of them are not even of League 1-2 quality!

    However, I note that the youth setup and recruitment and newgens have been revamped for FM12, so I really hope for a big improvement in these areas. If you've managed to pull it off, FM12 will be pretty close to a perfect game in my opinion, as this is the only area that's really lacking in realism. If these issues haven't been addressed, please give it a go for next year!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn View Post
    The main problem is that not enough good players appear in the game after a certain point. As an example, playing as Arsenal in FM11, having reached say 2017-18, I went to look for promising young (16, 17, 18 year old) English players. To my surprise, there were none! The players in the england under 21 squad were mediocre at best, certainly not up to the standards I was looking for. If you look at the current state of the English game, there are always quality young players coming through and challenging for a place in the England senior squad - the likes of Wilshere and Henderson last season, and Jones, Smalling, Cleverley and Welbeck this season. Looking ahead, I expect to see Chamberlain, Frimpong, McEachran, Wickham, Barkley etc coming through in the next few years. I very much doubt this conveyor belt of talent will stop producing in the next 5 years. In short, there should be at least 3-4 quality English newgens appearing every season.
    The reality is that this isn't going to happen. The world is littered with once-promising kids who never made it. Although tongue-in-cheek, this article sums it up: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/2641675.stm

    What is more likely is that most of these kids will end up as average-to-good players (just as most of the current England squad are), with the odd star or two.

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    I very much doubt any of the players I mentioned above will be playing in League 1 or 2 in 3-4 years time! I'm sure all of them will be Premier League regulars with the top teams, and some established international players. The players I'm talking about coming through in FM11 are really awful - pub-side quality!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn View Post
    I very much doubt any of the players I mentioned above will be playing in League 1 or 2 in 3-4 years time! I'm sure all of them will be Premier League regulars with the top teams, and some established international players. The players I'm talking about coming through in FM11 are really awful - pub-side quality!
    Most of the players in that link are still in the Premier League, playing at decent clubs. That's where most of them will end up.

    Most youngsters that come through top-tier academies never play in the top-tier. A large chunk don't even stay professional!

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    Fair enough. If everyone else feels that the number and quality of newgens in the game reflects the number and quality of young players coming through the ranks in real life, I must be in the wrong! But personally, as a Welshman, I would love to see the real life England team in 10-12 years if they were full of the FM11 newgens - even Wales could give them a hiding!

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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Most youngsters that come through top-tier academies never play in the top-tier. A large chunk don't even stay professional!
    This is quite true. Every year there are hundreds of players filtering down to the lower levels of football from the youth systems of bigger clubs. And at the same time, the bigger clubs are poaching the better young players from the clubs in the lower leagues that have managed to unearth a rare gem. Very few teams can manage to build first team squads out of purely homegrown talents.

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    love the idea, hoping to have less half star potential dead wood this way. think i only had 1 good youth player on the whole of fm11 so this cant be any worse! i only have 1 question though. i see if you have excellent recruitment then you mabe able to sign youth players from other countries. is the bug going to be fixed on fm12 so that foreign players become homegrown if they were at the club for 3 years before they were 21??? my current club signed a 16 year old player from belgium and at 22 he is still not classed as home grown and its very annoying!

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    the idea sounds great but imo it shouldn't be only the emphasis on which player comes from which country imo not every player has the same attributes only coming for a specific country

    the only thing i'm missing in the FM world is the option to build youth academys in other countries that will alow you to get good young talents at a young age and then add to your squad (it's clear that only "rich" clubs can afford to build such academys)

    another point which is a little bit bugging me in fm 2011 that if you have a very good youth facilities/academy good players are very very rare (big clubs like manU, barcelona, real madrid etc. have an excellent youth scouting network and getting only the best young player who are showing real promise)

    it would be also cool if your a lower league club (but not in the lowest) to say to your scout hey scout me please the youth teams from lower leagues and find so adequate talents which would fit into my team

    nonetheless i am really looking forward to fm 2012 it will be the best manager ever for sure :-D

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    This might be in the wrong place but so far there hasn't been a blog talking about it, but what about the NextGen tournament or other club youth tournaments? Isn't there a club world cup for youth teams? If these aren't in the game (which is fine) will the editor make it easier for these to be created for the Reserves/U-18s scheduling rather than end up cluttering up the 1st Team's calender?

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    Just a minor point. The Blog mentioned that we could delegate to the Assistant Manager. But would it not make better sense to delegate the youth setup to an appropriate youth coach instead? Would there be an option to choose which coach I want to delegate the youth setup duties to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyinuk View Post
    Just a minor point. The Blog mentioned that we could delegate to the Assistant Manager. But would it not make better sense to delegate the youth setup to an appropriate youth coach instead? Would there be an option to choose which coach I want to delegate the youth setup duties to?
    There already is in FM11 so i would have thought it would be exactly the same, but just having more of a say on what you're delegating

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    Quote Originally Posted by laBOMBA View Post
    A thing that annoyed me in the versions prior to FM2011 is the regen names for Belgian people. Most regen names were either spanish (FM2008) or german(FM2009&10). FM 2011 surprised me with a perfect mix between "native" Belgian names and immigrant names from predominantly Italy, Morocco, Turkey and DR Congo. FM12 apparantly has a more region specific name generation and I just hope the Belgians are not affected like they were in the past. I played a save game in FM11 that streches out over 30 seasons now and I'm still not bored of it. I couldn't do this in FM10 as the regen names started to annoy me in the 5th season already.
    Second this. Although I didn't think FM11 was perfect in this area, but it was better than earlier versions. But newgen naming in Belgium is something that can go wrong very easily.

    I have some issues with cancelling the youth system though. In Belgium, every team in the pyramid has to field a youth team (U18 I think, but please correct me). Of course in the lower leagues these players are unpaid amateurs. In practice, all teams down to level 6 (a lot in 7 and 8 too) have a youth structure of sorts. Mostly these are run by volunteers and receive some subsidy from the local council. Only a small number of Pro League teams have real academies.

    Which reminds me: will there some modifications to the way Amateur contracts are handled? Was a real pain being a Very Low-league manager in FM11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riz Remes View Post
    This is quite true. Every year there are hundreds of players filtering down to the lower levels of football from the youth systems of bigger clubs. And at the same time, the bigger clubs are poaching the better young players from the clubs in the lower leagues that have managed to unearth a rare gem. Very few teams can manage to build first team squads out of purely homegrown talents.

    Should we imply from the bold text that the answer to the first of these questions is negative? Could you, or someone, answer the others? I actually have another regarding the AI..

    Would the AI managers filter their intake the same as a human manager or will they just give all their youth-trialists/academy graduates contracts?


    Will FM12's revamped youth system reflect real-life in this way? Will the "intake" be of sufficient standard to ensure that the Barcelona legacy of breeding superstars will continue long into a save? (Or West Ham's, or Ajax, Sporting, et al..?). I don't want to be looking at 16 PA 90's next season when the youngster's average PA is currently >115, you know?

    Will the kids we have on trial automatically accept a standard youth deal or will there be those who know they're worth more straight away that would demand a higher deal? Are we going to get kids who know they're the next Messi who, basically, say if you don't give me X I'll go elsewhere, maybe even with a pushy agent already?

    Which brings me on to the kids at other clubs... presumably all the clubs in a country will have their own youth intake on trial at the same time, yes? Would we, like has been suggested, be able to send our best scout along to them and poach some of the better ones (assuming that they would join our club, of course)?

    And then what happens to those players who aren't given a youth contract at the club they've trialled with? Do they get trials elsewhere? Is there a second stage to it or will those who get rejected just disappear into the ether?

    Assuming that we can poach kids from other clubs, will there be a transfer tribunal of sorts to set transfer fees and future incentives like there would be IRL or are we free to nick any kid we like regardless?
    ???

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    “After the youth candidates have played their evaluation match against your current youth team, they will stay on with your youth team as trialists for the following few weeks.”

    This is the kind of set up in the lower leagues, or for clubs who have a low to medium level youth academy.
    But clubs with a high level youth academy should get youth contracted newgens, on expiring youth contracts. Youth players from within the academy are promoted from U17 level, with maybe a few trialists.
    The youth contracts should be renewed/extended or left to run out. Judged by not only the coaches (scouting reports), but also by the clubs’ scouts (missing in FM11). To be either good enough or not, to make the step up from U17 level. With trialists then filling the space if it’s decided they are better or talents spotted through your scouts.

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    Halo,Miles jacobson here??nice change in fm12 youth academy,but can i give some Ideas???
    i hope that the youngster when join the academy during they 9-12years old,
    this is same in the real world, for example:Cleverley join United when he 13year olds
    FM should do like this,not only juz 16-17 only join the clubs,its too late!!
    hope FM13 will change this age. thx

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    I believe they can't for legal reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazaru5 View Post
    Should we imply from the bold text that the answer to the first of these questions is negative? Could you, or someone, answer the others? I actually have another regarding the AI..

    Would the AI managers filter their intake the same as a human manager or will they just give all their youth-trialists/academy graduates contracts?
    No, that's not a negative. Clubs can produce youth talents that in the long run can easily fill in the first team squad and even move on to bigger clubs. For example a club like West Ham who have an established quality youth system can produce a lot of players for their first team through their own youths and most likely even some players to sell to bigger clubs occasionally. But like I said, these clubs are not too common just like in real life.

    AI managers filter out their youths but their processes happen behind closed doors, so you won't be able to poach players before they've actually been signed up on youth contracts into the AI youth teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riz Remes View Post
    No, that's not a negative. Clubs can produce youth talents that in the long run can easily fill in the first team squad and even move on to bigger clubs. For example a club like West Ham who have an established quality youth system can produce a lot of players for their first team through their own youths and most likely even some players to sell to bigger clubs occasionally. But like I said, these clubs are not too common just like in real life.

    AI managers filter out their youths but their processes happen behind closed doors, so you won't be able to poach players before they've actually been signed up on youth contracts into the AI youth teams.
    Maybe I'm missing something, but if the only way that we can see the youths in other squads is if they're given a contract, does that mean the youth newgens are "temporary" players for your club (like greys) that will disappear once their 'trial' ends if you don't give them a contract?

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    No, the youth players who join on your club on trial but do not get a youth contract will not disappear once their trial ends. They will be free to sign with any club, just like any other youth players who are released in the game world. Naturally if they do not find a club to play for, they might end up dropping out of football (ie. retiring) in the following months/years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riz Remes View Post
    No, the youth players who join on your club on trial but do not get a youth contract will not disappear once their trial ends. They will be free to sign with any club, just like any other youth players who are released in the game world. Naturally if they do not find a club to play for, they might end up dropping out of football (ie. retiring) in the following months/years.
    So they behave the same way as newgens today once their trial is over/they're signed to a deal? Does that then mean that there are going to be high PA kids with attitudes and/or agents at trial stage or will they all just accept a standard youth contract? Indeed, do we have to give them a youth deal, can we not give them a pre-contract pro deal at trial?

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    The youth trialists will easily accept a regular youth contract with you initially, as there is nothing much to really negotiate with that and these are all youths that are coming through your own system and want to get into the youth team. I think technically you need to sign them on a youth contract first, before being able to offer a pre-contract pro-deal as that will only kick in at a certain age and they would need to have a youth contract running until then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riz Remes View Post
    The youth trialists will easily accept a regular youth contract with you initially, as there is nothing much to really negotiate with that and these are all youths that are coming through your own system and want to get into the youth team. I think technically you need to sign them on a youth contract first, before being able to offer a pre-contract pro-deal as that will only kick in at a certain age and they would need to have a youth contract running until then.
    Thanks Riz

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    Love the new features in yuth teams. Can't wait for FM 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Welsh Lad View Post

    The manager of what ever club the youngster is at dictates the way the youngster plays and develops them thats how it happens in th real world. According to your suggestion, low league teams in the conference that concentrate on defending on a 5-3-2 for arguments sake will have to change to what was it 3-4-3 because its new youth players are going to play like that becuase thats what Man Utd, Man City play etc. So no matter what the managers prefered style of play is, he has to follow the top teams because thats how the youngster are designed.
    Maybe I wast clear. I agree that players learn (and develop) according to whatever their current managers demand.

    What I'm referring to is the initial 14yo regen, who has not been influenced in any significant way by any manager. Granted at this age, a player has a lot of scope with respect to the direction in which they could grow. However, their "naturalness" for certain roles cannot be fixed permanently by country but by the roles demanded by the managers of the current time.

    So in 2020 for example, if the top 30 teams in a league play WITHOUT Sweepers, I SHOULD NOT expect a large number of regens in that country to have a "naturalness" for the Sweeper position in 2020.

    Again, say its now 2030. if the top 30 teams in this league play WITH Sweepers, I SHOULD expect a large number of regens in that country to have a "naturalness" for the Sweeper position in 2030.

    As Managers change, so should the formations, and do should regens; It is incorrect to presume that any country would continue to play the same way for decades and NEVER change. Managers change, which means that philosophies change, which means formations change... and so should the regens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riz Remes View Post
    all youths that are coming through your own system and want to get into the youth team. I think technically you need to sign them on a youth contract first
    I really do not get why this is programmed like this, don’t get me wrong I like this feature a lot; being able to assess the future U19/18 squad towards the end of the season.
    But I think the way you are implementing this is just wrong for clubs who have an academy system. If they come from your own system/academy then they would already be on youth contracts. Trialists are player, in this case youths who come from outside the club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marz View Post
    I really do not get why this is programmed like this, don’t get me wrong I like this feature a lot; being able to assess the future U19/18 squad towards the end of the season.
    But I think the way you are implementing this is just wrong for clubs who have an academy system. If they come from your own system/academy then they would already be on youth contracts. Trialists are player, in this case youths who come from outside the club.
    I think you're being a bit picky here. The feature sounds like it's giving us more control over the new influx of players into the squad each season (something I'm sure people have been looking forward to). IIRC, the way that this is done is pretty much like it's being implemented in the game with the youngsters getting essentially one year YTS contracts until they're given professional terms or released.

    So essentially we're able to see the youngsters who have just come from the team's academy system and are ready to begin their first major steps into the professional game. We can either give them a contract straight away, release them or have a longer look before they decide. This is exactly the way Ajax do their system of youth with many youngsters put in a provisional grouping until the last minute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7Bestie7 View Post
    I think you're being a bit picky here. The feature sounds like it's giving us more control over the new influx of players into the squad each season (something I'm sure people have been looking forward to). IIRC, the way that this is done is pretty much like it's being implemented in the game with the youngsters getting essentially one year YTS contracts until they're given professional terms or released.

    So essentially we're able to see the youngsters who have just come from the team's academy system and are ready to begin their first major steps into the professional game. We can either give them a contract straight away, release them or have a longer look before they decide. This is exactly the way Ajax do their system of youth with many youngsters put in a provisional grouping until the last minute.
    I agree, if anything it should be the developers who should be the picky ones, but if they miss some stuff due to the 800+ features they are putting in then I feel fans can point it out to them.
    I also stated that I like this feature a lot, but it does feel half backed.
    You contradicted yourself, if anything you backed up my query. As a YTS contract is essentially a youth contract.
    So my query to the developer remains, why are the newgens at a club(s) with a youth academy not already on youth contracts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marz View Post
    I agree, if anything it should be the developers who should be the picky ones, but if they miss some stuff due to the 800+ features they are putting in then I feel fans can point it out to them.
    I also stated that I like this feature a lot, but it does feel half backed.
    You contradicted yourself, if anything you backed up my query. As a YTS contract is essentially a youth contract.
    So my query to the developer remains, why are the newgens at a club(s) with a youth academy not already on youth contracts.
    Probably because each year of trainees have their own type of contracts (if at all). I'd say you're contradicting yourself by saying you like the idea of seeing the potential new influx of youth but you also want them to already be on youth contracts. There's no real point in being able to see the new influx of players a week or two before they enter the U-18 if you can't pick and choose who gets the contract and who doesn't. If they're already on youth contracts then we don't need the new feature, do we.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marz View Post
    So my query to the developer remains, why are the newgens at a club(s) with a youth academy not already on youth contracts.
    A) Because there is no global definition of a youth academy or a "youth academy contracy" and all the clubs cannot work based on a specific system used at only selected clubs in a selected nation
    B) It wouldn't serve any gameplay purpose if you weren't able to have a say in which youth products get to graduate into your youth team.

    Sometimes we have to balance between realism and gameplay, as it is still a game at the end of the day. So yes, managers at even the clubs that in real life have an "academy" get to select which players are given proper youth contracts in the game.

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    Sounds brilliant, great work.

    I'm really interested in these national traits though, Is there some sort of list out there stating the traits for each country? Would love to see some more examples as it would give me a nice overview of which country I'd like to manage in.

    Thank you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riz Remes View Post
    A) Because there is no global definition of a youth academy or a "youth academy contracy" and all the clubs cannot work based on a specific system used at only selected clubs in a selected nation
    B) It wouldn't serve any gameplay purpose if you weren't able to have a say in which youth products get to graduate into your youth team.

    Sometimes we have to balance between realism and gameplay, as it is still a game at the end of the day. So yes, managers at even the clubs that in real life have an "academy" get to select which players are given proper youth contracts in the game.
    The problem in B) seems to be a miss understanding. The promoted youths would be on youth contracts that expire at the end of domestic season. So the managers would still get to say which players from the U17/16 squad would be promoted (have their contract extended and improved) into the U19/18 squad.

    Can you not get around the problem in A) by using the Youth Setup, Youth Academy & Youth Recruitment stats combined with the economic stats. So the more financially powerful clubs who have a high level youth system, would get newgens with expiring youth contracts. With maybe a few trialist added to the youth newgens to simulate realism and improve gameplay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7Bestie7 View Post
    I'd say you're contradicting yourself by saying you like the idea of seeing the potential new influx of youth but you also want them to already be on youth contracts. There's no real point in being able to see the new influx of players a week or two before they enter the U-18 if you can't pick and choose who gets the contract and who doesn't. If they're already on youth contracts then we don't need the new feature, do we.
    These youth contracts would need to be renewed/extended/improved or left to run out (end of the domestic season), as I already posted in this thread, post #175.
    The reason for my view is that it’s not a new influx into the club (unless this club has no academy). At clubs with an academy the newgens are theoretically already part of the clubs youth academy (U17/16 squad[s]), they should therefore be on youth contracts (YTS like you posted).

    As it is now we control/influence only the U19/18 squad (the very last step in the youth academy system).
    The newgens are in theory (at clubs with youth academies) part of the U17/16 squad. This is a squad we so far have not been able to interact with.
    But now at the end of the domestic season, we get to see these players of the U17/16 squad. And then assess them (as mentioned in the blog), by allowing them to play in normal youth team matches (of the U19/18) for a few weeks.
    There is a very real point, in that managers (in real life the director of youth) decide on whom to let go during this final evaluation period.
    Part of this feature is that we don’t get some random youths (hopefully) drop on us sometime at the start of the new season. But that we can judge towards the end of a season what we have in the under 17/16 level. This extra time can then be used to scout and fill potential gabs in the future U19/18 squad of the coming season. With maybe a few newgen trialist (found through the scouting network and affiliate clubs) added to the newgen youth of the U17/16.

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    Is it not best to treat it as if there is no U17/U16 in your academy? If all these players are treated as such that they have no club and have come for a trial from regional/national/international surroundings then yes they would need to be given a youth contract...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LambyGHS View Post
    Is it not best to treat it as if there is no U17/U16 in your academy? If all these players are treated as such that they have no club and have come for a trial from regional/national/international surroundings then yes they would need to be given a youth contract...
    Don't you mean

    If all these players are treated as such that they have no club (professional status club) and have come for a trial from regional/national/international surroundings then yes they would need to be given a trial contract...


    But then the developers might as well get rid of the youth academy feature. As in effect the game is simulated in such a way that we only have youth facilities and a youth squad just below the reserve/2nd teams.

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    No i dont mean a "trial contract" as whilst they are on trial they are un-attached! I mean you would then have to offer them a youth contract for them to join your U18 side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LambyGHS View Post
    No i dont mean a "trial contract" as whilst they are on trial they are un-attached! I mean you would then have to offer them a youth contract for them to join your U18 side.
    But then the developers might as well get rid of the youth academy feature. As in effect the game is simulated in such a way that we only have youth facilities and a youth squad just below the reserve/2nd teams.
    What you are saying, and the way the blog sets it out even for clubs with youth academies is this:-

    First team
    Reserve team/2nd team
    Highest level youth team (U19/18)
    ←newgens trial, assessment, offer youth contracts, then part of the U19/18 in the coming season
    U17/16 players from this squad disappear into thin air

    When my point(s) is/are that it should work like this:-

    First team
    Reserve team/2nd team
    Highest level youth team (U19/18)
    ←newgens trial, assessment, offer youth contracts, then part of the U19/18 in the coming season
    ↑U17/16 squad players simulated in the game as newgens move up for assessment (against newgens on trial, shortlisted youth etc), renewed/extended/improved or let youth contract run out (end of the domestic season), then part of the U19/18 in the coming season

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    Im sorry if im being REALLY thick but i dont actually see much difference between my theory and your theory apart from adding in "some" extra players that are already on youth contracts that have come through the "acadamy". If that is the only difference then i do see what you're saying!!!

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    Will Man City's new training ground be in it?

    http://blogs.bettor.com/Manchester-C...-Update-a98735
    Manchester City looking to invest in youth academy – Premier League Update

    It has been reported that Manchester City are finally ready to go all out and invest in a state of the art, over the top youth academy set-up.

    The current plans that the club have issued would see around seventy two players be given accommodation on the facilities, while there would be classrooms for two hundred students in total. Sixteen pitches would be included in the overall structure and the best rehabilitation facilities would be provided to the youngsters.

    In order to help the youth get a feel of just what they are going to be getting into, a seven thousand seater stadium would be built, just for the youth team to play on.

    Brian Marwood, who happens to be the Chief Football Operations Officer, has gone on to admit that this could be the best and most important investment that the club are going to be making.

    Marwood, when talking about the club’s plans is quoted to have said: "This could be the most important investment the club has ever made under its new ownership.

    That's something else altogether! But will FM go into this much detail about youth academies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LambyGHS View Post
    Im sorry if im being REALLY thick but i dont actually see much difference between my theory and your theory apart from adding in "some" extra players that are already on youth contracts that have come through the "acadamy". If that is the only difference then i do see what you're saying!!!
    I don't think you are thick. I just showed the mechanics in post #197. The difference is that it would not be “some”, but 16+ newgens from the U17/16 + trialist newgens. And for clubs with no academy it would probably be 16+ trialist newgens.
    A youth academy is in most cases, youth squads/groups for different age groups. The way this feature seems to be implement at the moment is for clubs who don’t have a academy, which makes me question why SI pretend that we have an academy feature.
    The developers should strike a balance between the number of players coming up from U17/16 which really should be a squad, so 16+ newgens (on expiring youth contracts). Then the number of trialist players, then the quality of both the U17 newgens & trialist newgens (ability/potential and other stats/attributes).
    And not just dump 16+ trialist into the U19/18 squad of a club who have an academy.

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