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Thread: Is it time for Variable PA

  1. #1
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    I was never the most gifted footballer in my youth, in fact at school I was only ever picked 3rd or 4th in the playground on the premise that I would go in goal (I was, and still am quite lanky) so I know I am not exactly the authority on how a footballer develops, but..

    I’ve been playing CM/FM since the 96/97 game (the one with the grey square boxes as a menu) and the one thing that hasn’t changed in all these years is that PA is determined when you are invented on the game at 14/15 and it doesn’t change. It just seems to me that it’s a bit restricting to be labelled as a player with potential of 85 or 63 or 121 at the tender age of 14/15, and no matter which football club you are at, and no matter how good the facilities and coaches are, that PA number will never change. Take me for example, when I was 15 if I had been put on the game I’d have been judged to have a potential of somewhere between 1 and 1, yet if at the age of 15 I went to a state of the art youth academy with a state of the art training setup and 23 world class coaches it’s a fair bet to say that I’d be a lot better footballer than I am now, some 10 years later.

    I think that on the game when you get a fresh batch of youngsters their PA shouldn’t be set in stone, and until the player hits 18 or 19 that PA could rise or fall depending on the environment where they train and who trains them. The future change in a players PA could also be linked to there own stats such as ambition, intelligence, determination etc. The rise/fall of the PA wouldn’t have to be huge, but the training facilities and coaches at a club should make a difference to a players PA. I’d love to think that if I got a youngster aged 14 on the game and he had a PA of 160, there was a chance that with my clubs youth setup and coaches, I could make him world class.

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    I was never the most gifted footballer in my youth, in fact at school I was only ever picked 3rd or 4th in the playground on the premise that I would go in goal (I was, and still am quite lanky) so I know I am not exactly the authority on how a footballer develops, but..

    I’ve been playing CM/FM since the 96/97 game (the one with the grey square boxes as a menu) and the one thing that hasn’t changed in all these years is that PA is determined when you are invented on the game at 14/15 and it doesn’t change. It just seems to me that it’s a bit restricting to be labelled as a player with potential of 85 or 63 or 121 at the tender age of 14/15, and no matter which football club you are at, and no matter how good the facilities and coaches are, that PA number will never change. Take me for example, when I was 15 if I had been put on the game I’d have been judged to have a potential of somewhere between 1 and 1, yet if at the age of 15 I went to a state of the art youth academy with a state of the art training setup and 23 world class coaches it’s a fair bet to say that I’d be a lot better footballer than I am now, some 10 years later.

    I think that on the game when you get a fresh batch of youngsters their PA shouldn’t be set in stone, and until the player hits 18 or 19 that PA could rise or fall depending on the environment where they train and who trains them. The future change in a players PA could also be linked to there own stats such as ambition, intelligence, determination etc. The rise/fall of the PA wouldn’t have to be huge, but the training facilities and coaches at a club should make a difference to a players PA. I’d love to think that if I got a youngster aged 14 on the game and he had a PA of 160, there was a chance that with my clubs youth setup and coaches, I could make him world class.

  3. #3

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    I always thought that the PA of players was not for us to know, there are ways to find out but it was simply there so that the game would know how certain players could develop?

    A player should only reach there PA under perfect conditions, for example with world class coaches and a world class youth system with the right mix of first team football to aid them. Therefore your PA would probably have been around 50, but as you never had the right training by the right coaches, you never reached your potential and ended up as just some lanky guy who gets stuck in goal

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    In a word, no. Potential is the best a player can possibly be you could go to the finest youth academy in the world at 14 but you will NEVER exceed your potential. No one can make your potential increase or decrease only the ability you currently have will change. Its fair too say if i had gone to a state of the art training academy with the best youth coaches in the world i would be alot better than i am now but only because i would have reached my pontential not because i would have had more potential.

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    The real problem is that player are generated with ex 65 PA and reach that amount at 16 then they never improve. This is stupid, they should improve at least until 18/19; but before that PA shouldn't be set...

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    You could go to the best facilities in the world, have the best coaches and have the best opportunities to prove yourself.

    The simple matter is if you aint got talent you havent got a chance

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    all this stuff about variable PAs or everyone should have a PA of 200 and the rest is based on your environment.
    we're going along the assumption that we can see the PA. we shouldn't be able to. we get into this conversation about making PAs not set instone because some of us insist on looking at the PAs.
    if you didn't then it makes no difference. the PA should be absolute. whether the player reaches that PA depends on their environment. this is how it is at the moment and how it should be.

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    and who says that you can't be good at 160PA? i had a striker through my youth in the last FM. PA 163 but he was piling the goals in from all angles.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by postal postie:
    all this stuff about variable PAs or everyone should have a PA of 200 and the rest is based on your environment.
    we're going along the assumption that we can see the PA. we shouldn't be able to. we get into this conversation about making PAs not set instone because some of us insist on looking at the PAs.
    if you didn't then it makes no difference. the PA should be absolute. whether the player reaches that PA depends on their environment. this is how it is at the moment and how it should be.


    there is no PA IRE. how many times we seen PA changing to some player. it's just simplefied version of how things should be.

    I would settle for variable PA.

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    Variable PA is a bad idea in my view. This is because it could potentially mean the big clubs are constantly bringing through world class players simply because they are a big club.

    If you are a small club trying to work your way up the ladder but the likes of Man United can constantly produce world class teams without having to find specific talent just because they can make any average joe a superstar talent.

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    Does PA/CA directly affect player performance? I always thought it just determined his starting attributes and the chances of them improving.

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    Potential Ability should be fixed. The only case for varying it is if a player sustains a very, very serious injury.

    Potential doesn't change. It is as good as you can ever be if you have all the right training, development and match experience. Environment affects CA.

    If a player turns up in your U18s with CA of 60 and PA of 65 then all the coaching in the world won't affect his chances of becoming a good player. That is why top clubs don't churn out 5 youth players every year who can play in the first team. That is why the lower leagues are littered with players from Premier League academies. They simply weren't good enough.

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    I think having a set PA so young is detramental in that it doesnt take into account development evironment factors such as coaches and training facilities.

    But there is the need for a guideline in terms of potential. I mean natural talent and ability exists in real life and its not something that can be taught in excellent training facilities otherwise teams such as Man Utd and Arsenal would just save them a lot of hassle by recruiting 11 local kids every year and developing them into world class players instead of spending millions and millions of pounds tracking down, and accuiring players who have shown natural ability at such a young age such as Rooney, Walcott, Fabregas, Anderson etc


    I think ideally the minus PA (-10,-9,-8 etc) system should be used for all players under 21 with a wider gap range for exampla -10 = 170-200, -9 = 160-190, -8 = 150-180 etc and this shouldn't be set until the players are about 19-21 with the figure increasing or decreasing according to the players experiences in the game with regards to developing factors such as coaches, training environment, first team experience etc.

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    If Potential Ability dosnt need to change, as others have noted this is natural; its the best you could be - Then how can you tell this in a player at any age? Your asking a game to predict how good this player can be based on very little evidence at a very young age.

    This suits the game because its easy to code, and everything in game seems to be related to ability so its quite a big factor, but i think the fluctuation between dvelopment would hit bugs...and oh...please not any more...

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    quote:
    and who says that you can't be good at 160PA? i had a striker through my youth in the last FM. PA 163 but he was piling the goals in from all angles.


    this cat is right, it's all about maximizing talent.

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    quote:
    I think ideally the minus PA (-10,-9,-8 etc) system should be used for all players under 21 with a wider gap range for exampla -10 = 170-200, -9 = 160-190, -8 = 150-180 etc and this shouldn't be set until the players are about 19-21 with the figure increasing or decreasing according to the players experiences in the game with regards to developing factors such as coaches, training environment, first team experience etc.

    I think this is pretty good idea. Anyone under have no set PA. But not like 1-200. Sergio Arguero start off with not a set PA, but a possibility of 170-200 PA. Then depending on how he develops, his PA will be set when he turns 21. IT could be 185 it could be 195. But it depends on his development and not just determined since the beginning of the game. Then one turn 21, there are no more changes to the PA. Just a matter of maximizing his now-set PA.

    This idea would please those who wish for variable PA. But it would also please those who wish for it to be set. And it would prevent big clubs from creating super talents every year because although it is possible to maximize a youngster's PA, his PA can still only go so high.

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    I agree with 4site's and Kawee's ideas

    Of course, a players personality should have an effect as well

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    As has been stated, PA is a hidden stat and the gamer is never supposed to know it.

    Furthermore, it is entirely realistic. I knew from being the last kid picked in the playground at age 5 that my PA was never going to get above a single digit figure, not even if I blagged my way into the Arsenal academy. With the best facilities and coaching, you still need some inherent ability to work with.

    So an unchanging PA is no problem with me. What I have noticced in the last few weeks since using an editor is that PAs DO change - with injuries a PA can drop - which again is entirely realistic; what perplexes me is that PA sometimes increases.

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    I think what Kawee suggests is a great idea.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by The Gaffovski:
    I think what Kawee suggests is a great idea.


    I don't see any REAL difference here. Let's take his example of Aguerro.

    On a fixed PA system his POTENTIAL is set at 195. Depending on his developement it will max out at 185 unless a lot of luck and ideal circumstances causes it to increase to up to 195. On the other hand, back luck and injuries could cause it to max at, say, 150.

    Fixed PA IS 'variable' - the actual PA is the highest possible total it could reach. Apparently in FM08 far fewer players ever max their PA, which does appear to take into account these very concerns but in a different way.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Sheer Class:
    You could go to the best facilities in the world, have the best coaches and have the best opportunities to prove yourself.

    The simple matter is if you aint got talent you havent got a chance


    Sheer Class I would have to disagree with your statement. Its never about talent, Talent is developed, life and sport is about attitude, dedication and commitment. 2 kids aged 15, 1 kids is streaks ahead of the kid as fas developed talent and Skills at that age. The kid with less talent, takes it upon himself to improve, through training and commitment, at the age of 21, i tell you the kid that worked harder and was more committed will be the kid with the better talent!!

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    quote:
    On a fixed PA system his POTENTIAL is set at 195. Depending on his developement it will max out at 185 unless a lot of luck and ideal circumstances causes it to increase to up to 195. On the other hand, back luck and injuries could cause it to max at, say, 150.

    But that would not happen. Arguero, being the prodigy that he is, his lowest PA will be 170. The difference between the system I suggest and the one being used is that players now have a say with how the PA of a player turns out.

  23. #23
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    quote:
    Originally posted by DirtyJoe:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Sheer Class:
    You could go to the best facilities in the world, have the best coaches and have the best opportunities to prove yourself.

    The simple matter is if you aint got talent you havent got a chance


    Sheer Class I would have to disagree with your statement. Its never about talent, Talent is developed, life and sport is about attitude, dedication and commitment. 2 kids aged 15, 1 kids is streaks ahead of the kid as fas developed talent and Skills at that age. The kid with less talent, takes it upon himself to improve, through training and commitment, at the age of 21, i tell you the kid that worked harder and was more committed will be the kid with the better talent!!


    absolutly true.

    I remember Zidane on one of the 1st CMs. he sucked. and just in next year's he was one of the best...

    there is also one big problem with PA, if player with high PA isn't playing and being injured and the other with lower PA plays every game, so how can the 1st one become better player?

    talent separates good players from exellant. but talent is player ability- attributes.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by DirtyJoe:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Sheer Class:
    You could go to the best facilities in the world, have the best coaches and have the best opportunities to prove yourself.

    The simple matter is if you aint got talent you havent got a chance


    Tell that to Gascoign, Le Tissier, Liniker and Best. These were all naturally talented players who weren't really bothered about training and that sort of thing yet they still shone out above many other, harder working players.

    If you take two kids at 15 and one is miles ahead of the other in terms of natural talent then no amount of training will make the other player better than the naturally talented one. Unless the naturally talented player just completely stops playing football and turns into a fat knacker. But that will never happen in FM.

    For me a kids potential depends on a number of things. Natutal talent due to genetics being one. The amount of football they play from an early age and the environment they grow up in being others. But by the time they are 15 (the age they enter the FM world) there potential and personality is set. So from that point on they're only going to ever be able to reach a certain level. Of course players peak at different times but this is down to Current Ability and not Potential Ability. But by the time a player is around 15, if he hasn't got potential then all the best coaching in the world is only going to improve him as far as his potential will allow.

    So for that reason I think the PA system in FM is perfectly fine as it is.

    Sheer Class I would have to disagree with your statement. Its never about talent, Talent is developed, life and sport is about attitude, dedication and commitment. 2 kids aged 15, 1 kids is streaks ahead of the kid as fas developed talent and Skills at that age. The kid with less talent, takes it upon himself to improve, through training and commitment, at the age of 21, i tell you the kid that worked harder and was more committed will be the kid with the better talent!!

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    Try that again seen as I messed up me quoting last time:

    quote:
    Originally posted by DirtyJoe:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Sheer Class:
    You could go to the best facilities in the world, have the best coaches and have the best opportunities to prove yourself.

    The simple matter is if you aint got talent you havent got a chance


    Sheer Class I would have to disagree with your statement. Its never about talent, Talent is developed, life and sport is about attitude, dedication and commitment. 2 kids aged 15, 1 kids is streaks ahead of the kid as fas developed talent and Skills at that age. The kid with less talent, takes it upon himself to improve, through training and commitment, at the age of 21, i tell you the kid that worked harder and was more committed will be the kid with the better talent!!


    Tell that to Gascoign, Le Tissier, Liniker and Best. These were all naturally talented players who weren't really bothered about training and that sort of thing yet they still shone out above many other, harder working players.

    If you take two kids at 15 and one is miles ahead of the other in terms of natural talent then no amount of training will make the other player better than the naturally talented one. Unless the naturally talented player just completely stops playing football and turns into a fat knacker. But that will never happen in FM.

    For me a kids potential depends on a number of things. Natutal talent due to genetics being one. The amount of football they play from an early age and the environment they grow up in being others. But by the time they are 15 (the age they enter the FM world) there potential and personality is set. So from that point on they're only going to ever be able to reach a certain level. Of course players peak at different times but this is down to Current Ability and not Potential Ability. But by the time a player is around 15, if he hasn't got potential then all the best coaching in the world is only going to improve him as far as his potential will allow.

    So for that reason I think the PA system in FM is perfectly fine as it is.

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    Dado Pršo quit playing football at age of 24 (worked as mechanist), then he joined some 3rd league french side, in couple of years he holds the record in CL for most goals in one match with Monaco, bocomes Croatian best player at 30, joines Rangers....


    life is not so simple, that you can tell what is someone's potential at 15 years of age. Best and Gaza were better then thier mates in terms of ability- attributes. of course someone is more talented at age of 15 if he is better player. but there is no fixed potential realy. it exists only on FM.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    Dado Pršo quit playing football at age of 24 (worked as mechanist), then he joined some 3rd league french side, in couple of years he holds the record in CL for most goals in one match with Monaco, bocomes Croatian best player at 30, joines Rangers....


    life is not so simple, that you can tell what is someone's potential at 15 years of age. Best and Gaza were better then thier mates in terms of ability- attributes. of course someone is more talented at age of 15 if he is better player. but there is no fixed potential realy. it exists only on FM.


    Ok, we can both give rare examples of where something happens but fixed potential does exist in real life. If you take 20 15 year old kids who are all at the same level of ability and give them all the exact same top class coaching until they are 25 then all those players will not end up at exactly the same level. Some will be better than others, some might not make it at all and one or two will probably stand out above the rest. And that's because, despite being similarly matched at 15, they all had differing potentials.

    Make no mistake, potential absolutely does exist in real life. It's why people stand out above other people in any sport. If there was no potential many sports would be very boring because all the competitors would just be equal.

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    I think you mixed potential with pesonality.

    those 20 kids with same ability; the most dedicated and lucky will sucseed, probably.

    I can agree with you that talent separates best from just good, but even Maradona, Jordan or Federer worked hard to became what they are.

    tell me where can I find that potential? I'm a little confused in my life... if I can find that all my problems will disapear...

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    If only FM Scout worked on real people eh?

    If only FM Scout didn't work on FM then all this complaining probably wouldn't happen in the first place.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:

    tell me where can I find that potential? I'm a little confused in my life... if I can find that all my problems will disapear...


    Well by your reasoning you can find that potential by working hard. I'd say you just don't have that potential.

    Do you really think that Maradona, Jordan or Federa worked that much harder than the majority of their counterparts? Do you not think they simply rose to the top because they were simply more talanted?

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    IRL everyone has a set potential ability with everything and it is our current ability that will change. For every person at everything there will be a time were you CANNOT get any better ie your CA has reached your potential.

    Players have and always will just be as good as their potential some will reach their potential due to their surroundings some will just fade out.

    The fact of the matter is you shouldn't be looking at the PA. You cannot see it in the game therefore just as in real life you have to use your judgement regarding who you sign not just tap into a database and look at a number!

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    Dado Pršo quit playing football at age of 24 (worked as mechanist), then he joined some 3rd league french side, in couple of years he holds the record in CL for most goals in one match with Monaco, bocomes Croatian best player at 30, joines Rangers....


    life is not so simple, that you can tell what is someone's potential at 15 years of age. Best and Gaza were better then thier mates in terms of ability- attributes. of course someone is more talented at age of 15 if he is better player. but there is no fixed potential realy. it exists only on FM.


    Yes but P'rso still had a hypothetical PA, when he quit originaly just no one spotted it because they didn't have Genie scout!

    His PA wouldn't have changed just because he quite then decided to try again, that would be his CA that has changed!

    Why can't people get that through their heads?

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    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    IRL everyone has a set potential ability with everything and it is our current ability that will change. For every person at everything there will be a time were you CANNOT get any better ie your CA has reached your potential.

    Players have and always will just be as good as their potential some will reach their potential due to their surroundings some will just fade out.

    The fact of the matter is you shouldn't be looking at the PA. You cannot see it in the game therefore just as in real life you have to use your judgement regarding who you sign not just tap into a database and look at a number!


    that's exeactly the problem, becouse AI is looking at CA/PA. if there are attributes only, things would be more real, AI should judge more things then just CA/PA. age, presonality and so on...

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    Here is a good example from my life of Fixed potential and how it is the most realistic of all suggested methods.

    I play squash along with my brother. We started playing at the same time. At first I would always beat him because I was bigger, fitter and stronger. However the coaches would alway rave about my brother as the next big thing.

    I have since worked as hard as I can to improve my game and my fitness (15hours a week training and playing). My brother has worked less hard (3hours a week messing) and now he regularly kicks my ass.

    This is down to him always having a higher natural potential and mine being fixed much lower. I may be closer to my PA but still nowhere near his CA.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by chopper99:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:

    tell me where can I find that potential? I'm a little confused in my life... if I can find that all my problems will disapear...


    Well by your reasoning you can find that potential by working hard . I'd say you just don't have that potential.


    I agree

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    IRL everyone has a set potential ability with everything and it is our current ability that will change. For every person at everything there will be a time were you CANNOT get any better ie your CA has reached your potential.

    Players have and always will just be as good as their potential some will reach their potential due to their surroundings some will just fade out.

    The fact of the matter is you shouldn't be looking at the PA. You cannot see it in the game therefore just as in real life you have to use your judgement regarding who you sign not just tap into a database and look at a number!


    that's exeactly the problem, becouse AI is looking at CA/PA. if there are attributes only, things would be more real, AI should judge more things then just CA/PA. age, presonality and so on...


    I understand your point but i don't think it makes your argument about having a variable PA any stronger.

    I think your argument should be that the AI should look at the attributes rather than the CA/PA, then i would agree, but the fact of the matter is PA should be set in stone just like everyones hypothetical PA is in real life.

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    do you believe in god, or what? destiny? I don't. I mean how do you know there is fixed PA in life.... life would have no reason for me, you know, if everything is fixed in advance.

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    ..it's like saying life is only black and white. I think it's whole spector of colours and even those which can't be seen by human eyes

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    do you believe in god, or what? destiny? I don't. I mean how do you know there is fixed PA in life.... life would have no reason for me, you know, if everything is fixed in advance.


    We're not saying that PA is set when you're born by some mystical being that points at you and says 'you will have a football potential of 150'.

    Potential is down to your genes when your born and what happens to you as a child. By the time your 15 and entered the FM game world these things have shaped your potential and at this point it's very vary rare for that to change. Everyone has a point where they've gotten as good as they ever will be.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    do you believe in god, or what? destiny? I don't. I mean how do you know there is fixed PA in life.... life would have no reason for me, you know, if everything is fixed in advance.


    I don't believe in god or anything like that. The reason there is a fixed PA in real life is because whatever i do no matter how good i am at it there will come to a point where i can get no better or i never reach my potential, it is current ability which changes.

    IRL unlike the game we have no way of knowing what our PA is and therefore may or may not ever reach it just like in the game.

    It is only because of all these external programs that we know about the PA's of the players.

    IRL i am crap at football and my PA would be somewhere around 5 with a CA around 1. No matter how hard i train i will never get better than that, but IRL if have loads of other things which i might excel at, in the game we are only looking at one aspect of a 'persons' PA at everything!!!

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    I can acceept that the game needs somthing like PA, even though there are games that don't have it, like PES, there are only attributes and peak factor-> youngsters can still develop, olds can't. it's more realistic in my opinoum, becouse there should be many factors which determine, will the player develop or not. we had big discussion on that metter before.

    why I don't like CA/PA system is becouse every year we witness players CA/PA change. Ribery was avereage player 3 years ago, now he is the best. so if someone is poor player and is 23 years old he can't be good, due to years and attributes which can't get much better. it's quite irritating to see some over-rated young players, only becouse they play in good teams or nations. there are many players from my country who are 18, 19 years old, braking into national side, but in FM they even don't have PA set.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    why I don't like CA/PA system is becouse every year we witness players CA/PA change. Ribery was avereage player 3 years ago, now he is the best. so if someone is poor player and is 23 years old he can't be good, due to years and attributes which can't get much better. it's quite irritating to see some over-rated young players, only becouse they play in good teams or nations. there are many players from my country who are 18, 19 years old, braking into national side, but in FM they even don't have PA set.


    But you've just proved our point, IRL we had no idea that Ribery would get as good as he has, the developers can only guess stuff like that and they guessed wrong. He hasn't exceeded his potential the guy which watched him and said that his CA is X and based on how he's performed over the last couple of years his PA is Y, so basically the researcher guessed wrong.

    They couldn't tap into his brain and work out a number from it using a scouting program!!!!

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    ...and then suddenly those youngsters, in FM09 they'll have PA-9.

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    Same discussion again?

    I think similar to Mitja, PA does not exist IRL. Future is something absolutely unpredictable. you can say "tomorrow sun will raise again. Even if it's cloudy and you can't see it, it will be there.". You really don't know it, but you suppose that it will happen as always has happened until today. Can you tell me the potential of any player in a club's academy? you cannot.

    -I have agreed that physical attributes have a limit for each player, at least before bionical elements appear in the game

    -But I think that mental attributes do not have a limit. I agree that some of these attributes won't hardly change with normal conditions (player's talent or creativity usually don't change in all their career), but others will do (for example work rating or team work). And some events could change "static" mental attributes (a very inspiring tutor, new role at new club, big injury, amazing year performance...)

    -And then technical attributes. No limit for me, but maybe there could be a maximum all-around improving (let's say 10 points in a year of improvement). Every player can have a >18 value in dribbling, marking, finishing, passing... if he trains really hard. Yes, everybody can with properly conditions, but of course focusing so much on an skill would make losing other attributes or tiring player. Remember one thing: a technical attribute does little by itself, even if it's a 20. What does a player with 20 in dribbling do with 3 pace, acceleration, balance and technique? he won't go too far being so slow, and often he will lose himself the ball because having few technique. Why do you want a 20 in finishing if you have 3 in off the ball, composure, technique? you won't have many chances, and then you will miss lots of them due to nerves or poor shot. marking is not useful if you haven't strenght to take the ball, concentration to be alert... and passing is not useful if you don't have creativity, decissions, technique...

    So for me, only one kind of the attributes should have a clear limit. So PA has little effect.

    And all that good players that were better than others even with less training, that was due to initial attributes, not due hidden values. They had't "hard" mental attributes (work rating, team work...) but yes creativity ones. And technically spoken, they weren't better than others, just more focused (IRL a player with 20 finishing 1 tackling is better than a 15 finishing 10 tackling). Most of those players could have improved quite their physical attributes, but just don't needed it.

    How many "points" had gascoigne or maradona improved from 18 to 25? Not a lot I guess. But they had great initial skills.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    ...and then suddenly those youngsters, in FM09 they'll have PA-9.


    Yes because the resarchers previous guess was proved wrong.

    They need to code it so that the game has rules to work from! Thats how computer programs work a series of codes and rules!!! Its not real life!

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    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    why I don't like CA/PA system is becouse every year we witness players CA/PA change. Ribery was avereage player 3 years ago, now he is the best. so if someone is poor player and is 23 years old he can't be good, due to years and attributes which can't get much better. it's quite irritating to see some over-rated young players, only becouse they play in good teams or nations. there are many players from my country who are 18, 19 years old, braking into national side, but in FM they even don't have PA set.


    But you've just proved our point, IRL we had no idea that Ribery would get as good as he has, the developers can only guess stuff like that and they guessed wrong. He hasn't exceeded his potential the guy which watched him and said that his CA is X and based on how he's performed over the last couple of years his PA is Y, so basically the researcher guessed wrong.

    They couldn't tap into his brain and work out a number from it using a scouting program!!!!


    I think you prooved my point

    CA should be player's attributes. potential shouldn't be known/ set.

    age, playing factor (level in which player plays/not), training facilities, personality and injuries are things which should determine how much can player improve.

    of course youngster with all his att set to 1, can't be good player, even if all other aspects are in his feavour. on contrary, "naturaly gifted" youngster, who is given a chance to play can become good player, even if he is not most hard working person.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by xouman:
    Can you tell me the potential of any player in a club's academy? you cannot.


    No you can't but at the same time unless you use and external program to look at a database you can't in the game!

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    why I don't like CA/PA system is becouse every year we witness players CA/PA change. Ribery was avereage player 3 years ago, now he is the best. so if someone is poor player and is 23 years old he can't be good, due to years and attributes which can't get much better. it's quite irritating to see some over-rated young players, only becouse they play in good teams or nations. there are many players from my country who are 18, 19 years old, braking into national side, but in FM they even don't have PA set.


    But you've just proved our point, IRL we had no idea that Ribery would get as good as he has, the developers can only guess stuff like that and they guessed wrong. He hasn't exceeded his potential the guy which watched him and said that his CA is X and based on how he's performed over the last couple of years his PA is Y, so basically the researcher guessed wrong.

    They couldn't tap into his brain and work out a number from it using a scouting program!!!!


    I think you prooved my point

    CA should be player's attributes. potential shouldn't be known/ set.

    age, playing factor (level in which player plays/not), training facilities, personality and injuries are things which should determine how much can player improve.

    of course youngster with all his att set to 1, can't be good player, even if all other aspects are in his feavour. on contrary, "naturaly gifted" youngster, who is given a chance to play can become good player, even if he is not most hard working person.


    But they aren't know unless you cheat and use an external program!!!!!

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    Basically, if you use the game AS INTENDED there is no way of knowing someones potential.

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    Basically the argument that PA's shouldn't be set is completely flawed because then the teams with top facilities could just turn any youngster into a world class player. How does that work?

    The argument that mental attributes should have no limit is flawed as in all aspects of life people who've had similar up-bringings have different mental capacities and personalities. You can't just change or develop mental skills indefinitely. Like anything else you'll have a limit and if you ever reach that limit that will be it, you simply won't be able to improve any more.

    And the argument for no limit on technical attributes is the most flawed for me. That's basically the same as saying that with the right amount of training I will be able to dribble like Maradona, Best or Ronaldo. I'll be able to shoot like Shearer and pass like Beckham. This is so not true it's unbelievable.

    I really don't understand how people can't grasp the fact that the reason all sports don't just have loads of completely equal competitors, why some people are better than others, is because some people have the natural ability to be that bit better while others ability can only take them so far.

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    i think there should be more negitive PA's but with smaller increments so that all players could be randomly generated within say a range of 10- 15 instead of (off the top of my head) a range of 40. I agree that PA shouldn't be set but a bit of a truer "fog of war" would include all players having a element of randomness in them.

    For m example a player of Wayne Rooney could be in the top range of say 190-200 PA so that when the game generates he could fall anywhere in there.

    Maybe also with more negitive potentials we ould have small ranges of say 5 at the top end to ranges of 30 at the bottom end. There is no reason that ranges couldn't overlap to make the "fog" a bit more of an element of randomness.

    To me this seems logical to me but I am prepared for this to be picked to pieces and told how wrong I am.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by nick1408:
    i think there should be more negitive PA's but with smaller increments so that all players could be randomly generated within say a range of 10- 15 instead of (off the top of my head) a range of 40. I agree that PA shouldn't be set but a bit of a truer "fog of war" would include all players having a element of randomness in them.

    For m example a player of Wayne Rooney could be in the top range of say 190-200 PA so that when the game generates he could fall anywhere in there.

    Maybe also with more negitive potentials we ould have small ranges of say 5 at the top end to ranges of 30 at the bottom end. There is no reason that ranges couldn't overlap to make the "fog" a bit more of an element of randomness.

    To me this seems logical to me but I am prepared for this to be picked to pieces and told how wrong I am.


    This is a good idea. Although it would create a little more randomness as to which players developed from save to save it would still keep the most imprtant element; the fact that each players PA is set and that's the best they'll ever be.

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    I'd just like to point out at this juncture that although I'm completely against scrapping PA completely I do think there are ways in which a players development can be improved.

    I think PA should remain as is for technical and physical attributes. I do believe though that a players chance of reaching this PA should be impacted more by their mental attributes. Things like determination and possibly work rate should have a big impact on how quickly a player progresses towards their peak ability. Having players with low scores in these attributes tutored by older players should have a direct effect on things like determination and teamwork, and in-turn a direct effect on their ability to reach their potential.

    As for mental attributes in general, I think these should be more goverened by experience than the same PA/CA system used or physical and mental attributes. The more experience of playing in important games the more certain mental attributes should improve. So a seasoned champions league campaigner who's won things should have noticeably higher mental attributes than many other players. Currently menatal attributes are based solely on CA and PA but I feel this is one area where a little more flexibility is needed.

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    I think that at the age of 14/15 every person has a potential to be the best if other factors are taken into account such as Stamina, fiteness and Mental attributes.

    Its kinda like at school when teachers say you have all the potential in the world. You can have the best teachers to get you to that potential but if your mind isnt in the right place you will not reach it.

    Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.

    I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by johnnydude:
    I think that at the age of 14/15 every person has a potential to be the best if other factors are taken into account such as Stamina, fiteness and Mental attributes.

    Its kinda like at school when teachers say you have all the potential in the world. You can have the best teachers to get you to that potential but if your mind isnt in the right place you will not reach it.

    Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.

    I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years.


    So your saying that someone like me at the age of 14/15 had the same potential as Maradonna/Catona etc? I really don't think so!

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    quote:
    Originally posted by johnnydude:
    .

    [QUOTE] Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability.


    This is just current ability. A talanted youngster will have high abilities because his CA is already high. This has ne bearing whatsoever on his potential.

    quote:
    If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.


    But by definition potential is the best you can ever be. So there's no need for it to start high and then fall to match the players mental attributes. The fact is it should have been whatever value it falls to to start with because that's the best that player was ever going to be.

    quote:
    I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years.


    Again this is CA. His PA is the best he could ever be if everthing went absolutely perfect for him. How he pans out over his important developing years are all to do with his CA.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by chopper99:
    Basically the argument that PA's shouldn't be set is completely flawed because then the teams with top facilities could just turn any youngster into a world class player. How does that work?


    no they can't. if player natural ability is bad he won't be given a chance to play, which is far more important then training facilities.

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    I like the FIFA way more, each player has a fixed amount of talent and then coaches, facilities ,luck , 1st team football and character are affecting his development .
    Also the tutoring should have big impact despite age , i can think many of my favorite club's players that improved after a season of playing together with big names (i can even think of a guy that improved alot while he was 28 years old).

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    quote:
    Originally posted by chopper99:
    Basically the argument that PA's shouldn't be set is completely flawed because then the teams with top facilities could just turn any youngster into a world class player. How does that work?


    no they can't. if player natural ability is bad he won't be given a chance to play, which is far more important then training facilities.


    But you're still sticking by the fact that if you were manager of a top team and did just decide to play him you could make any player world class as there would be no limit to their potential as long as they got the coaching and the games?

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Themistofelis:
    I like the FIFA way more, each player has a fixed amount of talent and then coaches, facilities ,luck , 1st team football and character are affecting his development .
    Also the tutoring should have big impact despite age , i can think many of my favorite club's players that improved after a season of playing together with big names (i can even think of a guy that improved alot while he was 28 years old).


    With FIFA though, can you look at the background data with an external program? If no, the how do you know that there isnt a point when a player can't get any better?

    If there is no set PA you could essentially sign a team of free contract 19yos and turn them into the best team ever as long as you had the best facilitys, which wouldn't be very realistic would it??

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    No footballer has ever reached their full potential and none will.

    No matter what you do you will never reach your full potential, unless the circumstances are perfect and nothing is perfect.

    The CA/PA system needs to change if realism is to be abtained.

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    quote:
    Basically, if you use the game AS INTENDED there is no way of knowing someones potential.

    Not in numbers, but in words we can. I find it very frustrating that a 17 year old is "currently close to his full potential."

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    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:

    With FIFA though, can you look at the background data with an external program? If no, the how do you know that there isnt a point when a player can't get any better?

    If there is no set PA you could essentially sign a team of free contract 19yos and turn them into the best team ever as long as you had the best facilitys, which wouldn't be very realistic would it??


    You don't need to use any program to look anything, each player has a fixed "talent" this factor is number one in the speed of skill improvement , good academies around the world will increase the chance of you getting better quality of talents but of course world class stars are always rare .
    I think it is realistic to sign 19 year olds who are tall , strong and aggressive and train them into useful defenders, they may be never become world stars (because of their fixed talent value) but they will be good enough to give depth in your bench or play against lesser opposition.
    In the current fm model all low PA youngsters are just crap and their destiny is to quit football after 2 years, think of it.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Kawee:
    quote:
    Basically, if you use the game AS INTENDED there is no way of knowing someones potential.

    Not in numbers, but in words we can. I find it very frustrating that a 17 year old is "currently close to his full potential."


    But thats what happens IRL, a Man Utd scout isn't going to look at a team of League 2 players and say that we should sign them all because they all have the potential to be absolutly brilliant!

    Some players will only ever reach League 2 level because of their natural ability.

    Just like not everyone has the brains to be a rocket scientist, not everyone has the potential to be the best footballer in the world!

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Themistofelis:
    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:

    With FIFA though, can you look at the background data with an external program? If no, the how do you know that there isnt a point when a player can't get any better?

    If there is no set PA you could essentially sign a team of free contract 19yos and turn them into the best team ever as long as you had the best facilitys, which wouldn't be very realistic would it??


    You don't need to use any program to look anything, each player has a fixed "talent" this factor is number one in the speed of skill improvement , good academies around the world will increase the chance of you getting better quality of talents but of course world class stars are always rare .
    I think it is realistic to sign 19 year olds who are tall , strong and aggressive and train them into useful defenders, they may be never become world stars (because of their fixed talent value) but they will be good enough to give depth in your bench or play against lesser opposition.
    In the current fm model all low PA youngsters are just crap and their destiny is to quit football after 2 years, think of it.


    Surely a 'Fixed Talent' value is essentially a very specific PA in a particular area then.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Themistofelis:
    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:

    With FIFA though, can you look at the background data with an external program? If no, the how do you know that there isnt a point when a player can't get any better?

    If there is no set PA you could essentially sign a team of free contract 19yos and turn them into the best team ever as long as you had the best facilitys, which wouldn't be very realistic would it??


    You don't need to use any program to look anything, each player has a fixed "talent" this factor is number one in the speed of skill improvement , good academies around the world will increase the chance of you getting better quality of talents but of course world class stars are always rare .
    I think it is realistic to sign 19 year olds who are tall , strong and aggressive and train them into useful defenders, they may be never become world stars (because of their fixed talent value) but they will be good enough to give depth in your bench or play against lesser opposition.
    In the current fm model all low PA youngsters are just crap and their destiny is to quit football after 2 years, think of it.


    Surely a 'Fixed Talent' value is essentially a very specific PA in a particular area then.


    Plus as for the destiny thing, surely thats the same in real life? I know my PA as a footballer is crap, hence why i've never tried for a proffesional club! No matter how hard i train i'll never be as good as someone like Rooney

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    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    Surely a 'Fixed Talent' value is essentially a very specific PA in a particular area then.


    No it is not , a player will still improve until a serious injury or age make his skills decline , of course it is up to you if you are willing to play a guy for 10 years in order to turn him world class or invest in a more talented that will become top after only 2 seasons.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by James.Clench:
    I was never the most gifted footballer in my youth, in fact at school I was only ever picked 3rd or 4th in the playground on the premise that I would go in goal (I was, and still am quite lanky) so I know I am not exactly the authority on how a footballer develops, but..

    I’ve been playing CM/FM since the 96/97 game (the one with the grey square boxes as a menu) and the one thing that hasn’t changed in all these years is that PA is determined when you are invented on the game at 14/15 and it doesn’t change. It just seems to me that it’s a bit restricting to be labelled as a player with potential of 85 or 63 or 121 at the tender age of 14/15, and no matter which football club you are at, and no matter how good the facilities and coaches are, that PA number will never change. Take me for example, when I was 15 if I had been put on the game I’d have been judged to have a potential of somewhere between 1 and 1, yet if at the age of 15 I went to a state of the art youth academy with a state of the art training setup and 23 world class coaches it’s a fair bet to say that I’d be a lot better footballer than I am now, some 10 years later.

    I think that on the game when you get a fresh batch of youngsters their PA shouldn’t be set in stone, and until the player hits 18 or 19 that PA could rise or fall depending on the environment where they train and who trains them. The future change in a players PA could also be linked to there own stats such as ambition, intelligence, determination etc. The rise/fall of the PA wouldn’t have to be huge, but the training facilities and coaches at a club should make a difference to a players PA. I’d love to think that if I got a youngster aged 14 on the game and he had a PA of 160, there was a chance that with my clubs youth setup and coaches, I could make him world class.


    PA has been variable in FM for about the last 4/5 versions - when a player has like -7/-8 PA it means they have the potential for their PA to develop to a set range eg 155 - 165.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Themistofelis:
    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    Surely a 'Fixed Talent' value is essentially a very specific PA in a particular area then.


    No it is not , a player will still improve until a serious injury or age make his skills decline , of course it is up to you if you are willing to play a guy for 10 years in order to turn him world class or invest in a more talented that will become top after only 2 seasons.


    So again IRL if i trained with the man utd team and played every game for them barring injury i could become their best player then? Wow think i should ring Sir Alex Ferguson up right now and tell him that potentially the worlds best player is sat behind a desk at work!

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    in a way it depends on how you are looking at PA.

    I was taking my point from earlier in a way that used PA as a bench mark for the unknown. In my example I was thinking that if the youngster is taken on board at a certian level within football be it championship or conference etc then he has a certain degree of potential that the scout has seen. His CA would be low as he needs to develop. As they gain a better understanding of his mental ways his PA could feasibly drop as he has not got the heart etc. This was why I thought PA should be high as the younster is technically an unknown quantity. At 14/15 you may have the potential to be as good as Maradona but your might not display that skill ever because you dont develop or have not got the right coaches or natural ability.

    However thinking on it in terms of the game i suppose it is used as a benchmark for the processing to make sure that they have a limit straight away. Potential will therefore always be the same and the computer has determined that this is the best a player will ever be.

    Although in real life the potential someone has may fluctuate the player can not meet or surpass his potential I can fully understand why this is not happening in the game and on hindsight fully believe that having the set PA in game is the right way to do it.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    So again IRL if i trained with the man utd team and played every game for them barring injury i could become their best player then? Wow think i should ring Sir Alex Ferguson up right now and tell him that potentially the worlds best player is sat behind a desk at work!


    It is still much better from getting youngsters with CA 55 and PA 87, in the FIFA way everyone has a chance to play in professional level (if everything is perfect which are most of the times not even close ) not to mention that it is more fun to develop your players than go and buy them from abroad .

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    I wouldn't like to get into hypotetical discusion here. the fact is that if you're smart enough you'll play your best youngsters.

    and I just can't see how could some realy bad player improve to world class, his potential is limited by his ability at the moment plus he wouldn't be given chance to play in top team.

    but hypoteticaly, I thin even worst youngster could become decent player if he was given a chance to play a lot in a team like Man U, but this is only hypoteticaly, it wouldn't happen.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Themistofelis:
    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    So again IRL if i trained with the man utd team and played every game for them barring injury i could become their best player then? Wow think i should ring Sir Alex Ferguson up right now and tell him that potentially the worlds best player is sat behind a desk at work!


    It is still much better from getting youngsters with CA 55 and PA 87, in the FIFA way everyone has a chance to play in professional level (if everything is perfect which are most of the times not even close ) not to mention that it is more fun to develop your players than go and buy them from abroad .


    Again, how would that work, it wouldn't be anything like real life to sign a bunch of 19yos and they all turn out to be the best players in their positions.

    FM is a replication of how it works in real lfe, no club pins their hopes on their youth team.

    It sounds like you want FM to be a communist game where everyone has an equal chance dispite obvious examples where it isn't possible!

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Themistofelis:
    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    So again IRL if i trained with the man utd team and played every game for them barring injury i could become their best player then? Wow think i should ring Sir Alex Ferguson up right now and tell him that potentially the worlds best player is sat behind a desk at work!


    It is still much better from getting youngsters with CA 55 and PA 87, in the FIFA way everyone has a chance to play in professional level (if everything is perfect which are most of the times not even close ) not to mention that it is more fun to develop your players than go and buy them from abroad .


    absolutly true.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    I wouldn't like to get into hypotetical discusion here. the fact is that if you're smart enough you'll play your best youngsters.

    and I just can't see how could some realy bad player improve to world class, his potential is limited by his ability at the moment plus he wouldn't be given chance to play in top team.

    but hypoteticaly, I thin even worst youngster could become decent player if he was given a chance to play a lot in a team like Man U, but this is only hypoteticaly, it wouldn't happen.


    Yes it is good when you can play your best youngsters, but just because you are young doesn't mean you're gonna make it.

    Its starting to sound like X factor where someone who clearly can't sing thinks that given some vocal coaching they can be the next big thing, it'll never happen.

    And yes bad players won't be given a chance to play in a top team simply because they're a bad player, thats how the game/life works IRL.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Soton:
    No footballer has ever reached their full potential and none will.

    No matter what you do you will never reach your full potential, unless the circumstances are perfect and nothing is perfect.

    The CA/PA system needs to change if realism is to be abtained.


    best reply on this metter ever.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Themistofelis:
    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    So again IRL if i trained with the man utd team and played every game for them barring injury i could become their best player then? Wow think i should ring Sir Alex Ferguson up right now and tell him that potentially the worlds best player is sat behind a desk at work!


    It is still much better from getting youngsters with CA 55 and PA 87, in the FIFA way everyone has a chance to play in professional level (if everything is perfect which are most of the times not even close ) not to mention that it is more fun to develop your players than go and buy them from abroad .


    absolutly true.


    Ok so if you want a game just for fun play FIFA, if you want some realism added in play FM.

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    In response to the original post...

    You have summed up the current system entirely.

    You, or me for instance, had a low CA when we were younger, and a slightly higher PA - a level which you could reach if you were given the right 'football upbringing' from an early stage.

    Since neither of us were given the 'football upbringing' required to fulfil our potential, our CA remained at a low lever, and our PA is now just a legacy of what we could have achieved.

    As suche there is no need to have variable PA, as long as the majority of players don't reach their full potential, which has been a problem in previous versions of the game, but less so these days.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by xouman:
    Can you tell me the potential of any player in a club's academy? you cannot.


    No you can't but at the same time unless you use and external program to look at a database you can't in the game!


    My scouts have a great idea, and also AI seems to see it in some way

    But ever if they cannot see PA, it should not be that kind of limit, real limit depends on lots of factors. If any PA must exist, it would be not static and dependant on certain abilities (as it happens with CA I suppose).

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Soton:
    No footballer has ever reached their full potential and none will.

    No matter what you do you will never reach your full potential, unless the circumstances are perfect and nothing is perfect.

    The CA/PA system needs to change if realism is to be abtained.


    best reply on this metter ever.

    Surely what your saying soton is a case for it not to be changed. As has already been stated PA is the best you will ever be and not everyone reaches there full potential in FM. Which means what you are saying is just a case for it to stay the same as in FM not everyone will actually reach their full potential but no-one ever IRL or in the game will exceed their potential as its physically impossible.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    quote:
    Originally posted by postal postie:
    all this stuff about variable PAs or everyone should have a PA of 200 and the rest is based on your environment.
    we're going along the assumption that we can see the PA. we shouldn't be able to. we get into this conversation about making PAs not set instone because some of us insist on looking at the PAs.
    if you didn't then it makes no difference. the PA should be absolute. whether the player reaches that PA depends on their environment. this is how it is at the moment and how it should be.


    there is no PA IRE. how many times we seen PA changing to some player. it's just simplefied version of how things should be.

    I would settle for variable PA.


    that's only because SI got the PA wrong in the first place.
    doesn't mean that it changes in real life.
    then again we can't moan that SI got it wrong because it's no visible in real life.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Neville_Roach:
    If Potential Ability dosnt need to change, as others have noted this is natural; its the best you could be - Then how can you tell this in a player at any age? Your asking a game to predict how good this player can be based on very little evidence at a very young age.

    This suits the game because its easy to code, and everything in game seems to be related to ability so its quite a big factor, but i think the fluctuation between dvelopment would hit bugs...and oh...please not any more...


    the game isn't predicting anything. the developers are doing that.
    if we're talking about regens then again the game isn't predicting anything. because the game has generated these players it's also generated how good they can be. IT KNOWS EVERYTHING!!

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    quote:
    Originally posted by xouman:
    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by xouman:
    Can you tell me the potential of any player in a club's academy? you cannot.


    No you can't but at the same time unless you use and external program to look at a database you can't in the game!


    My scouts have a great idea, and also AI seems to see it in some way

    But ever if they cannot see PA, it should not be that kind of limit, real limit depends on lots of factors. If any PA must exist, it would be not static and dependant on certain abilities (as it happens with CA I suppose).


    So the answer to the the problem is that the scouts and AI shouldn't be able to read the PA correctly and only read the CA and make a guess at the PA. As it happens IRL, scouts only guess the PA.

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    The system should be changed because it is possible to reach you're potential.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Kawee:
    quote:
    I think ideally the minus PA (-10,-9,-8 etc) system should be used for all players under 21 with a wider gap range for exampla -10 = 170-200, -9 = 160-190, -8 = 150-180 etc and this shouldn't be set until the players are about 19-21 with the figure increasing or decreasing according to the players experiences in the game with regards to developing factors such as coaches, training environment, first team experience etc.

    I think this is pretty good idea. Anyone under have no set PA. But not like 1-200. Sergio Arguero start off with not a set PA, but a possibility of 170-200 PA. Then depending on how he develops, his PA will be set when he turns 21. IT could be 185 it could be 195. But it depends on his development and not just determined since the beginning of the game. Then one turn 21, there are no more changes to the PA. Just a matter of maximizing his now-set PA.

    This idea would please those who wish for variable PA. But it would also please those who wish for it to be set. And it would prevent big clubs from creating super talents every year because although it is possible to maximize a youngster's PA, his PA can still only go so high.


    if you didn't know about PAs would you be bothered if it was varable or not?
    no. because as far as your concerned its the same either way. sometimes the player becomes good. others they stay rubbish.
    people should stop looking at the CA/PA

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Soton:
    No footballer has ever reached their full potential and none will.

    No matter what you do you will never reach your full potential, unless the circumstances are perfect and nothing is perfect.

    The CA/PA system needs to change if realism is to be abtained.


    best reply on this metter ever.


    So what you are really saying is that although Rooney has a PA of 198 his CA will never go above 170 or a youth player with a PA of 120 will never get above a CA of 70 due to circumstances out of his control.

    In other words the CA needs to be toned down then, that is the only way you could change it in a computer game!

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    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by xouman:
    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by xouman:
    Can you tell me the potential of any player in a club's academy? you cannot.


    No you can't but at the same time unless you use and external program to look at a database you can't in the game!


    My scouts have a great idea, and also AI seems to see it in some way

    But ever if they cannot see PA, it should not be that kind of limit, real limit depends on lots of factors. If any PA must exist, it would be not static and dependant on certain abilities (as it happens with CA I suppose).


    So the answer to the the problem is that the scouts and AI shouldn't be able to read the PA correctly and only read the CA and make a guess at the PA. As it happens IRL, scouts only guess the PA.


    i believe this happens already.
    my scout told me that a player would reach a certain level. i bought him and he changed his mind and said he would be even better.
    my couches recommend that i get rid of most of my youth players. but after awhile they tend to like them.
    so coaches and the like do not so an absolute PA

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    "So what you are really saying is that although Rooney has a PA of 198 his CA will never go above 170 or a youth player with a PA of 120 will never get above a CA of 70 due to circumstances out of his control.

    In other words the CA needs to be toned down then, that is the only way you could change it in a computer game!"

    I'm not saying that at all, read my post again!

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Soton:
    "So what you are really saying is that although Rooney has a PA of 198 his CA will never go above 170 or a youth player with a PA of 120 will never get above a CA of 70 due to circumstances out of his control.

    In other words the CA needs to be toned down then, that is the only way you could change it in a computer game!"

    I'm not saying that at all, read my post again!


    Thats exactly what you're implying, you state that everyone has a full potential i.e. PA and that due to circumstances that no one ever reaches their PA i.e. their CA.

    If thats not what you mean think you need to reword what your trying to say.

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    "So what you are really saying is that although Rooney has a PA of 198 his CA will never go above 170 or a youth player with a PA of 120 will never get above a CA of 70 due to circumstances out of his control."

    What i'm saying is that even if rooney has a PA of 198 he's CA will never reach 198.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Soton:
    "So what you are really saying is that although Rooney has a PA of 198 his CA will never go above 170 or a youth player with a PA of 120 will never get above a CA of 70 due to circumstances out of his control."

    What i'm saying is that even if rooney has a PA of 198 he's CA will never reach 198.


    Isn't that what i said? 170 was an example number.

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    personally i think all PAs should be set higher but player development redesigned so no player ever reaches his PA.

    What majorly bugs me is when a player reaches his PA so he can no longer improve at all.

    I also don't think mental attributes should be set under PA at all. A player's mental attributes are constantly changing. I could spend ages explaining this but hopefully a quick example will help.

    My striker is selfish and has a low teamwork rating. I might tell him in training that if he refuses to pass i won't play him and IRL this might change his style of play (in game this would be represented by an attribute rise in teamwork). However, currently in game my striker is playing close to his potential so his teamwork can't dramatically rise unless some of his other attributes fall.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by chopper99:
    Basically the argument that PA's shouldn't be set is completely flawed because then the teams with top facilities could just turn any youngster into a world class player. How does that work?

    I'm not saying that players improve at fine pace forever, I'm saying that players stop improving for argumentable and visible things, not mystically. Of couse all players stop improving, and then they could improve again, but in a moment of their career they start losing skill.
    quote:

    The argument that mental attributes should have no limit is flawed as in all aspects of life people who've had similar up-bringings have different mental capacities and personalities. You can't just change or develop mental skills indefinitely. Like anything else you'll have a limit and if you ever reach that limit that will be it, you simply won't be able to improve any more.

    I'm not saying that a player will improve normally in all mental aspects. What's the limit for your aggression? Maybe it's currently at 5, no matter how your coach tries to modify it. Then you have problems at home, maybe you have been tackled very hard, and you are suddenly not the same person and your aggression has increased a lot. Under normal circunstances it would never happen. All people could have aggression of 20 under certain circunstances, maybe extreme, although very few could have pace of 20. Agreed, very few people will reach 20 in aggression, but everybody has a little chance to have it under limit circunstanecs.
    quote:

    And the argument for no limit on technical attributes is the most flawed for me. That's basically the same as saying that with the right amount of training I will be able to dribble like Maradona, Best or Ronaldo. I'll be able to shoot like Shearer and pass like Beckham. This is so not true it's unbelievable.

    Yes, training for years focusing in dribbling,you can dribble as the. But without agility, balance, technique, pace, acceleration, decisions, flair... dribbling is 20% of a real dribble, so you won't past after most conference defenders with crap attributes even if your dribble is 20. I have seen on tv people who does amazing things with the ball, better than any (or almost any) proffessional player in the world. But they are at circus, don't play football because a technica skill without other skills (mental, technical and physical) does nothing.

    quote:

    I really don't understand how people can't grasp the fact that the reason all sports don't just have loads of completely equal competitors, why some people are better than others, is because some people have the natural ability to be that bit better while others ability can only take them so far.

    They are better not because are born gifted, but because of lots of things. They could have better initial skills due to genetic, but that's not all at all.

    Maradona was himself because great because he had impressive technical attributes, some very good mental attributes and played accordingly to his physical attributes. physical attributes were mostly affected by genetic. Mental attributes were due to familiar situation and way of living, and the fact he loved football. And technical attributes were due to lots of football playing in the street and he tried constantly to improve.

    But I'm not talking why maradona was when he appeared in proffessional football, but about the way he improved. PA is just a limit in how a player can improve. Best or Gascoigne didn't improve more when they started proffessional football than other players with same age an conditions, they just had better attributes from the beginning.

    PA is needed because players improving is not quite good IMHO, with a very good improving system it would be useless.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by xouman:
    PA is needed because players improving is not quite good IMHO, with a very good improving system it would be useless.


    I could have sworn based on all your posts you were against having a PA!

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    I agree strongly with djsills and xouman posts.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by johnnydude:
    I think that at the age of 14/15 every person has a potential to be the best if other factors are taken into account such as Stamina, fiteness and Mental attributes.

    Its kinda like at school when teachers say you have all the potential in the world. You can have the best teachers to get you to that potential but if your mind isnt in the right place you will not reach it.

    Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.

    I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years.


    So your saying that someone like me at the age of 14/15 had the same potential as Maradonna/Catona etc? I really don't think so!


    Potentially yes (at least technical and mental attributes). But surely your CA is 100 points under his, so you never would be as good as him in planet earth. At 14 they were far beyond any 14 player.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by xouman:
    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by johnnydude:
    I think that at the age of 14/15 every person has a potential to be the best if other factors are taken into account such as Stamina, fiteness and Mental attributes.

    Its kinda like at school when teachers say you have all the potential in the world. You can have the best teachers to get you to that potential but if your mind isnt in the right place you will not reach it.

    Therefore I think at 14/15 potential for youth should be quite high, this can be determined by his current mental attributes and ability. If as he ages you see that he isnt mentally up to the task (i.e. does not try etc) then his PA should fall as coaches start to learn more about the lad. Then once he has the personality worked out the coaches can keep working at him to get to that potential by improving his skills, technique etc.

    I do not think PA should increase but i think that when the player is young they should have quite a high PA that will only stay the same or decrease depending on how he pans out over the important developing years.


    So your saying that someone like me at the age of 14/15 had the same potential as Maradonna/Catona etc? I really don't think so!


    Potentially yes (at least technical and mental attributes). But surely your CA is 100 points under his, so you never would be as good as him in planet earth. At 14 they were far beyond any 14 player.


    But i like alot of other people have very poor technical abilities, whereas he has immense technical abilities. So your saying that if his CA at his prime was 198 mine would be 98? Thats good for a conference player! I wouldn't stand a chance at conference level! My CA would be around 10 at the most!!!

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    You think Genaro Gatuzo has any technical skill at all? he just play with mental and physical good sportsmen and characters can play in proffesional level if they are committed to their work

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    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    Just like not everyone has the brains to be a rocket scientist, not everyone has the potential to be the best footballer in the world!


    Brains are more or less for a rocket scientist (RS) what physical attributes are for a footballer. A person with 0 brains couldn't be RS, a person with 0 phys can't play football (think of maradona without legs).

    But if you take 20 children aged 3 and teach them in order to be RS, all those who are interested in it will success. Those who don't like to read, who don't study, who are more intrested in other areas, won't be RS, the other ones could be.

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    For the vast majority of situations I think the potential ability method is the way to go. There is a small number of situations where it isn't, but I'm not sure it warrants the extra programming that would be required.

    I'm actually going to take an example from another sport, cycling. Lance Armstrong was a world class cyclist (including winning a world championship in his early 20s), but because of his build he was never going to win the Tour de France. Of course, after recovering from cancer his build and physiology had changed to such an extent that he was a completely different kind of cyclist. The result is that he was able to go onto win 7 Tours (de France). One might argue that his potential was increased by the cancer, but it wasn't. The potential was always there, but required major changes to be reached. Without the cancer he would have been successful, but probably no-where nearly as successful as he was following the cancer.

    I think it could work if major events altered potential slightly, but probably only negatively or selectively on certain characteristics. So, a player who suffered a couple of severe hamstring injuries may have a similar or slightly reduced potential, but his injury proneness would increase (due to torn hamstrings being problematic in the future). Also, the potential gains in his pace and acceleration might decrease. The injury shouldn't necassarily affect his passing or anticipation or whatever other potential, but could certainly have an impact on certain areas.

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