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Thread: Sorry but I needed to get this off my chest...

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    I am sure this post could have been posted as a response to any of the soon hundreds of shot/goal-ratio articles, but I decided to post it here. If you tired of this topic, just don't read this post...

    I've read most threads on the shot/goal-ratio in these forums, and although it's the bug (and yes, it is a bug no matter how tactic-fanatics want to look at it) that has made me stop playing the game, I was planning to not get involved in this discussion. However, enough is enough, and the responses from some of the players in here are just so provocative that I can't shut up anymore.

    Let's start with the beginning.. FM2008 comes out, a game which in previous versions has made millions of "managers" scream in agony or beeing over the moon after Heskey finally has scored a goal (Either it was his first goal of the season against their team of for it). One of the main sales points of this game has been "Match Engine Improvements" and "Easier To Use". Let's look at those two headliners for a while.

    For us who has played this game since the first version, we have always been overwhelmed by the realism in the game. It has always been far better than its competitors, but was it maybe better before it became the money-machine it is right now? Before they're pushed to make a new version with plenty of new features every year? There is no doubt that it is still the best manager game out there, but the increasing amount of bugs, flaws and inconsistency for every version is worrying. In this version we are expecting the final(?) patch in February, aproxomately 8 months before we will see FM 2009. How will this affect the work on FM 2009 and is this fair on the customers that bought the game 4 months ago? I will just let this question hanging, as it will only start a playable/unplayable discussion which is totally useless. The game is technically playable, but that doesn't mean that it holds what it promises...

    The main reason for writing this post was the shot/goals ratio, and the discussions that has followed afte this issue first was presented. Befor the patch, the main issues for me related to the match engine, was the missed penalties and the closing down bug. After the patch, shots/goals is by far the worst. What makes it even more annoying is that SI denies to acknowledge it as a bug (which I guess, means that it will not be fixed in the patch), and the a-typic answer for all the tactic-fanatics, saying "It's you tactics".

    Well.. Let's try to look at real life football. I know that there was a post where some guy compared the shot/goals ratio in his game with real stats from the same league, however this comparison har many possible foults. First of all, I don't see the s/g-ratio as a problem in games not played by human managers. Comparing a whole season in FM using all teams, will therefore not give any good answers. The other answers which all players bringing this issue up is getting from other forum users is the "it's your tactics-response". Again, let's go back to reality.. Is there anyone here who actually think that if Manchester United in a regular 4-4-2 formation, fireing 40 shots a game will not score a goal with world class players? First of all, could anyone please present me with match stats from a regular game where it says 30-40 chances? And second, if it should happend in one game (sometimes it seems like the ball nevner will go in), it won't repeat itself week in and week out. Third, If I can trust the match commentary (which I hope I can), it is not like the shots are beeing fired from 50 yards, meaning that this is not either the "solution". Yeah, maybe som of the shots are of crappy quality, but not all of them. Most likely not even 50% if your team is packed with world class players.

    Well maybe the player has a low morale you say. Yes, maybe he has. But even if Berbatov wants to leave Tottenham, Drogba is missing Mourinho and Anelka always is on the move, you don't see them suddenly turn in to ****** players, firing every ball towards the corner flag..

    "AI has "cracked" your tactic" many is saying.. Well it's not like a teams tactic is as secret as the Coca Cola recipe. A opposition club which uses all of the analyzing tools, 100 hours of video footage and whos attending your games, has no more problem of cracking your tactic than it has to crack open its eggs in the morning. As I am from Norway I painfully had to watch Rosenborg winning over 10 years in a row. It was not because none of the other teams (who played almost the same team every year) did not know how Rosenborg played, it was because Rosenborg plainly was better than it's opposition. They rarely even changed their tactics playing away, but still one most of their matches. Never did suddenly all teams start to win against them with only creating 3 chances, while Rosenborg started to loose all their matches still creating 30. When it first happened it was of course because the other teams got smarter, but mostly because the strenght of the clubs became more equal. Therefore it is not realistic that a team should suddenly start loosing towards almost any opponent, just because they have "cracked" the tactic. And what are the odds that evry AI-manager cracks it at the same time? Also, why should it have any effect on the efficiency of Fernando Torres og Cristiano Ronaldo's shots? I see in FM's advertising that Ray Houghton is one of the mater minds behind the match engine.. I can not remember that Liverpool in their glory days changed tactics every other week, just because the opponent knew how they played.

    The "easier to play" was also mentioned it the ad of this game. I know that it's more about the interface than the difficulty, but it is no doubt that SI hopes to attract many of the potential customers that up to now has looked at FM as an impossible and advanced spreadsheet. The advisor is therefore a nice addition for those players, and although I ofcourse turned it of after cheking what it was, I never once saw it tutoring me on how an extreme difference there is in having match tempo set at 5 instead of 6. Or short passes 3 insted of 4. Could somebody please tell them that it is the difference between victory and failure? And that they need to use about 20-30 minutes in front of every game to change their tactics to get a decent result? If they don't, just forget about 4-4-2, 4-5-1 or any of the other "old fashioned" tactics. Go to the tactics section of the forum and download a tactic that has "craked" the Match Engine for you. It doesn't matter if you have slow or fast players. If you're in Premier League or in Serie C. The dowloaded tactic will make you successful. All honors to those who has implemented thos tactics, but excuse me when I say that I have yet to se a team playing 2-2-3-2-1 in the Champions League...

    Where are the players in all this? When did a world class striker become more useless than a third division player, just because another manager know how the team plays. In this game Peter Shilton could do a comeback, beeing much better than Peter Cech, just because the tactics are cracked (of course Cech would get a 6 or 7 no matter if he did not make a single save throughout the whole game while Shilton got a 6 making 7 impossible saves, but that is another story).

    So what are we left with? There is still no doubt that this is the greatest manager game. For those of you who now are preparing to cut my head of because this is just whining, lets me just say a few things. I've been both successful and been not given a new contract in the game, but that does not change any aspects of the game. I too agree that it should not be as easy as just making sure that you have 11 eligable players for your team and press "Play Match". I also hope that stats, attributes and different mentalities will play a great role in the game. I don't want it to be a game where you win as long as you buy the best players, but still it must have some kind of realism. Today it is the opposite. Tactics counts for a lot more than your players, and that is not realistic. It's almost as Mourinho said it about his pies and eggs. You need good eggs to make a decent pie

    I've written this more in frustration than anything else, so I am not really trying to start a new discussion. I feel that my point here should be quite obvious, and if neither the forum members or SI agrees with me, than I might just have to realize that the FM series is not what it was, and that its might not be a game for me anymore. As many of you most likely have understood, this post is more than just about the s/g-problem. There are plenty of other issues, bugs and problems that annoys me and that I could have brought up, but the s/g-thing only shows how divied it is possible to be about the same game. I still want to see that person who actually feels that the game would be more unrealistic if the s/g-ratio was tweaked a bit. That person should maybe start developing handball-manager 2009

  2. #2
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    I am sure this post could have been posted as a response to any of the soon hundreds of shot/goal-ratio articles, but I decided to post it here. If you tired of this topic, just don't read this post...

    I've read most threads on the shot/goal-ratio in these forums, and although it's the bug (and yes, it is a bug no matter how tactic-fanatics want to look at it) that has made me stop playing the game, I was planning to not get involved in this discussion. However, enough is enough, and the responses from some of the players in here are just so provocative that I can't shut up anymore.

    Let's start with the beginning.. FM2008 comes out, a game which in previous versions has made millions of "managers" scream in agony or beeing over the moon after Heskey finally has scored a goal (Either it was his first goal of the season against their team of for it). One of the main sales points of this game has been "Match Engine Improvements" and "Easier To Use". Let's look at those two headliners for a while.

    For us who has played this game since the first version, we have always been overwhelmed by the realism in the game. It has always been far better than its competitors, but was it maybe better before it became the money-machine it is right now? Before they're pushed to make a new version with plenty of new features every year? There is no doubt that it is still the best manager game out there, but the increasing amount of bugs, flaws and inconsistency for every version is worrying. In this version we are expecting the final(?) patch in February, aproxomately 8 months before we will see FM 2009. How will this affect the work on FM 2009 and is this fair on the customers that bought the game 4 months ago? I will just let this question hanging, as it will only start a playable/unplayable discussion which is totally useless. The game is technically playable, but that doesn't mean that it holds what it promises...

    The main reason for writing this post was the shot/goals ratio, and the discussions that has followed afte this issue first was presented. Befor the patch, the main issues for me related to the match engine, was the missed penalties and the closing down bug. After the patch, shots/goals is by far the worst. What makes it even more annoying is that SI denies to acknowledge it as a bug (which I guess, means that it will not be fixed in the patch), and the a-typic answer for all the tactic-fanatics, saying "It's you tactics".

    Well.. Let's try to look at real life football. I know that there was a post where some guy compared the shot/goals ratio in his game with real stats from the same league, however this comparison har many possible foults. First of all, I don't see the s/g-ratio as a problem in games not played by human managers. Comparing a whole season in FM using all teams, will therefore not give any good answers. The other answers which all players bringing this issue up is getting from other forum users is the "it's your tactics-response". Again, let's go back to reality.. Is there anyone here who actually think that if Manchester United in a regular 4-4-2 formation, fireing 40 shots a game will not score a goal with world class players? First of all, could anyone please present me with match stats from a regular game where it says 30-40 chances? And second, if it should happend in one game (sometimes it seems like the ball nevner will go in), it won't repeat itself week in and week out. Third, If I can trust the match commentary (which I hope I can), it is not like the shots are beeing fired from 50 yards, meaning that this is not either the "solution". Yeah, maybe som of the shots are of crappy quality, but not all of them. Most likely not even 50% if your team is packed with world class players.

    Well maybe the player has a low morale you say. Yes, maybe he has. But even if Berbatov wants to leave Tottenham, Drogba is missing Mourinho and Anelka always is on the move, you don't see them suddenly turn in to ****** players, firing every ball towards the corner flag..

    "AI has "cracked" your tactic" many is saying.. Well it's not like a teams tactic is as secret as the Coca Cola recipe. A opposition club which uses all of the analyzing tools, 100 hours of video footage and whos attending your games, has no more problem of cracking your tactic than it has to crack open its eggs in the morning. As I am from Norway I painfully had to watch Rosenborg winning over 10 years in a row. It was not because none of the other teams (who played almost the same team every year) did not know how Rosenborg played, it was because Rosenborg plainly was better than it's opposition. They rarely even changed their tactics playing away, but still one most of their matches. Never did suddenly all teams start to win against them with only creating 3 chances, while Rosenborg started to loose all their matches still creating 30. When it first happened it was of course because the other teams got smarter, but mostly because the strenght of the clubs became more equal. Therefore it is not realistic that a team should suddenly start loosing towards almost any opponent, just because they have "cracked" the tactic. And what are the odds that evry AI-manager cracks it at the same time? Also, why should it have any effect on the efficiency of Fernando Torres og Cristiano Ronaldo's shots? I see in FM's advertising that Ray Houghton is one of the mater minds behind the match engine.. I can not remember that Liverpool in their glory days changed tactics every other week, just because the opponent knew how they played.

    The "easier to play" was also mentioned it the ad of this game. I know that it's more about the interface than the difficulty, but it is no doubt that SI hopes to attract many of the potential customers that up to now has looked at FM as an impossible and advanced spreadsheet. The advisor is therefore a nice addition for those players, and although I ofcourse turned it of after cheking what it was, I never once saw it tutoring me on how an extreme difference there is in having match tempo set at 5 instead of 6. Or short passes 3 insted of 4. Could somebody please tell them that it is the difference between victory and failure? And that they need to use about 20-30 minutes in front of every game to change their tactics to get a decent result? If they don't, just forget about 4-4-2, 4-5-1 or any of the other "old fashioned" tactics. Go to the tactics section of the forum and download a tactic that has "craked" the Match Engine for you. It doesn't matter if you have slow or fast players. If you're in Premier League or in Serie C. The dowloaded tactic will make you successful. All honors to those who has implemented thos tactics, but excuse me when I say that I have yet to se a team playing 2-2-3-2-1 in the Champions League...

    Where are the players in all this? When did a world class striker become more useless than a third division player, just because another manager know how the team plays. In this game Peter Shilton could do a comeback, beeing much better than Peter Cech, just because the tactics are cracked (of course Cech would get a 6 or 7 no matter if he did not make a single save throughout the whole game while Shilton got a 6 making 7 impossible saves, but that is another story).

    So what are we left with? There is still no doubt that this is the greatest manager game. For those of you who now are preparing to cut my head of because this is just whining, lets me just say a few things. I've been both successful and been not given a new contract in the game, but that does not change any aspects of the game. I too agree that it should not be as easy as just making sure that you have 11 eligable players for your team and press "Play Match". I also hope that stats, attributes and different mentalities will play a great role in the game. I don't want it to be a game where you win as long as you buy the best players, but still it must have some kind of realism. Today it is the opposite. Tactics counts for a lot more than your players, and that is not realistic. It's almost as Mourinho said it about his pies and eggs. You need good eggs to make a decent pie

    I've written this more in frustration than anything else, so I am not really trying to start a new discussion. I feel that my point here should be quite obvious, and if neither the forum members or SI agrees with me, than I might just have to realize that the FM series is not what it was, and that its might not be a game for me anymore. As many of you most likely have understood, this post is more than just about the s/g-problem. There are plenty of other issues, bugs and problems that annoys me and that I could have brought up, but the s/g-thing only shows how divied it is possible to be about the same game. I still want to see that person who actually feels that the game would be more unrealistic if the s/g-ratio was tweaked a bit. That person should maybe start developing handball-manager 2009

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    Agree.

    Sadly I dont think SI do- Miles has actually said that this is the best yet.

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    Agree, certainly what you've said about tactics being the be-all and end-all, and the moronic 20 increment sliders are another valid point.
    The thing is, if SI were in ANY WAY ambitious about their beloved series, they would SERIOUSLY CONSIDER ripping the whole thing up and starting afresh.
    Never mind "New Skin!" or "New Features!!" (Who really gives a shiny sh1te about a skin you'll soon change anyway?), why not "New Game!"

    Because all they've done since '05 is Re-hash and Re-package.

    And it's all very tired and old.

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    I am sure that Miles actually honestly thinks that this is the best game yet, and in many aspects I am sure it is. However if all the new features actually had worked properly it would be a GREAT game, but they're not, i.e s/g-ratio and board confidence.

    I totally agree that they should dump new skins and fancy new features, but I don't think that this is up to neither Miles, Paul or anyone else. FM is a part of a company like any other game, and companies wants to make money. They don't make money on continuing to patch games until they are "perfect", they make them on presenting new products that we need to buy. So even if Miles or some of the others wanted to tweak this game until perfection, they wouldn't be granted permission to do this. Hopefully (although I don't like to pay full price for an update of an old game), there won't be too many new fancy features, but rather an upgrade and tweaking of 2008. We can all dream

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    It's not about ripping the game up and starting again.

    All they need to do is forget new developments for a year and tweak the game to make sure that all existing features are perfect , and then build from there.

    But SI must realise , that making people wait 5 months for a final release of the game with a proper patch just isn't acceptable.

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    i got through half of your thread and gave up....so sorry

    i kind of agree BUT

    this game deserves soooooo much praise and i hope they keep producing this game unlike LMA Manager

    but yea it is important that this game maintains its standards

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    quote:
    Originally posted by BobbyB123:
    It's not about ripping the game up and starting again.

    All they need to do is forget new developments for a year and tweak the game to make sure that all existing features are perfect , and then build from there.


    I have to agree that 08 and some of the New features need to be worked on,and before more new ideas are implemented in 09 these and the game should be running as intended.Now you now people will say that this will be sorted after the new patch,but then others will say it's still not right.
    So why not use what is there in what will be 8.0.2 and then if need be correct the other issues this patch may throw up to at least get a great out of the box game for 09.Leave adding new things out of 09 to make the game the best it can be,now same again a lot of people will say that's nothing but an update thier paying for,but surely a full working game that needs very little doing to it is what everyone wants.
    This could then become the platform to take the game to the next level and give an even more fantastic gaming experience for novice to old hand who plays the game.

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    It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet.

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    I think that what most of you are saying is what most of us really want, but as I mentioned I find it quite unlikely that it will happen. Considering that the active users on this forum only make a few percent (if even that much) of the people buying the game, SEGA/SI can't sell FM2009 as an advanced patch for FM2008. Even if the active user (us) and maybe even developers want it themselves.

    Of course it would be interesting to hear SI's own thoughts about this approach for the next game, but I'm afraid that it then will turn into more of a disussion of if anythings really wrong with this one...

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Starr_Man5:
    Agree, certainly what you've said about tactics being the be-all and end-all, and the moronic 20 increment sliders are another valid point.
    The thing is, if SI were in ANY WAY ambitious about their beloved series, they would SERIOUSLY CONSIDER ripping the whole thing up and starting afresh.
    Never mind "New Skin!" or "New Features!!" (Who really gives a shiny sh1te about a skin you'll soon change anyway?), why not "New Game!"

    Because all they've done since '05 is Re-hash and Re-package.

    And it's all very tired and old.


    I don't know if everyone has forgotten but there was a time where there would be a completely fresh CM/FM, the following year would be pretty much a data update with a new league/feature or two, then the following year again it would be a fresh game.

    I think everyone can agree that things are geting a bit overfamiliar and tired now. Between FM05 and FM07 it seems to have slouched, I don't anticipate FM09 like I did CM03 or such.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Ackter:
    It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet.


    Came in here to say exactly that

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    quote:
    Originally posted by aston_martin:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Ackter:
    It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet.


    Came in here to say exactly that


    It absolutely has- Ive seen enough glimpses (particularly pre-patch) to see that the match engine has the potential to be an absolute delight.

    But what annoys me is that the game was quite obviously released too early, and the way SI seems unprepared to accept any of the quite justified criticism levelled at SI because of this.

    I think many are frustrated not because of issues but because essentially 8.01 shouldve been the quality we got out of the box.

    I thought SI moved from Eidos because of the same issue with CM4- yet a call was quite clearly made to release FM08 with a pretty major bug in the match engine, and without a release day patch being guaranteed.

    Im sure most would prefer the release being delayed, rather than wait for 3 mths after release for a patch that we can only hope makes FM08 the best yet.

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    It's nice to see a thread were everybody agrees for a change You make a good point about the SI/Eidos seperation, but unfortunately I don't think any company is better than the other when it comes to making money. Shareholders and investors wants their cut, and by delaying a game for 3 months, you're kind of cutting out 25% of the annual profit by releasing a game every year. You won't see FIFA 2009,5 either, and that's a bit of the problem. Pressure is high but the time schedule is tight, and the outcome is what we see. Like you say they should also be a bit more prepared to accept the critisism (although I still think they are better than many other publishers, who just don't give a damn), and when a thread like the main one about the s/g-ratio consists of about 16 pages, it doesn't hold up to almost deny that it's an issue.

    But I agree with everyone here.. It has the potential, and there is nothing more I would like to see than it to succeed. Come on SI

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    I'm quite pleasently surprised that this hasn't degenerated into the usual drivel that passes on here as discussion.

    I think the effort you put in to your first post is keeping the thread together.

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    I agree completely. I too am extremely frustrated with this game.

    My opinion is that the problem is this new approach they have to the game. In the past, as someone else said, they would come with a new version (match engine) every 3-4 years.

    I think that back in 2005 they had an ambitious idea: to create a do all, upgrading match engine. So perhaps their thinking was: we will change this module and that module and all of the sudden the game will be different - all at the programmers' control. As a parenthesis, this same approach is currently the practice with the NBA live series, NHL series (and in general EA titles).

    Unfortunately, now they reached a level of complexity so when they change something 15 other things change as well. The fact that the result is completely unpredictable is evident by the multitude of issues that appear after every new patch.

    So I will wait until February or whatever it is when they said they will bring a new patch but I am very skeptical about it. I do not remember one time in the history of CM/FM when a patch that makes the game perfect would take this long (almost 4 months). CM4 was one buggy version and we waited two months for a patch but none of the patches would create bigger problems than they fixed.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    quote:
    Originally posted by aston_martin:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Ackter:
    It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet.


    Came in here to say exactly that


    It absolutely has- Ive seen enough glimpses (particularly pre-patch) to see that the match engine has the potential to be an absolute delight.

    But what annoys me is that the game was quite obviously released too early, and the way SI seems unprepared to accept any of the quite justified criticism levelled at SI because of this.

    I think many are frustrated not because of issues but because essentially 8.01 shouldve been the quality we got out of the box.

    I thought SI moved from Eidos because of the same issue with CM4- yet a call was quite clearly made to release FM08 with a pretty major bug in the match engine, and without a release day patch being guaranteed.

    Im sure most would prefer the release being delayed, rather than wait for 3 mths after release for a patch that we can only hope makes FM08 the best yet.


    All great points. It's just as fun to watch some people defend the game to the point of hilarity as well as people who don't have a clue and needlessly complain about being 'cheated' just the same.

    The game looks great, it just needs a couple tiny tweaks to be as good as it promises.

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    Excellent post, well done on posting a well thought out and literate dicussion

    I am very worried about the future though. A Si response to one of my posts in another thread stated they did indeed believe this was the best version yet.

    If they HONESTLY believe this then there is no way FM will never improve. Of course it is more likely to be PR spin. I hope there have been meetings in Si towers about how much of a shambles FM08 has been and what they are going to do about FM09. If there hasn't I then I am even more worried. I really don't know what to think... do they really think this is the best version yet ?

    I think maybe the code has become so complex that adding even a small feature just throws everything out of whack. A year goes by and we get about 3 new features and the entire game breaks. I don't envy them but the product just isn't up to standard anymore.

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    I think the whole patching to fix the game is more of a general , consistant problem. Rather than simply being isolated to this game.

    The problem I have , is that 7.0.2 , was a very good game. You'd have got alot of takers for a database/graphics update slapped on top of that. The problem is that SI seem to make the game worse (In terms of features that are continued) that the previous games last patch. Which makes you think of the one step forward and two steps back kind of idea.

    I'm not saying that 7.0.2 was perfect , just that, outside of the newer features for the new game + the database update , its a far superior game as things currently stand.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by BobbyB123:
    I think the whole patching to fix the game is more of a general , consistant problem. Rather than simply being isolated to this game.

    The problem I have , is that 7.0.2 , was a very good game. You'd have got alot of takers for a database/graphics update slapped on top of that. The problem is that SI seem to make the game worse (In terms of features that are continued) that the previous games last patch. Which makes you think of the one step forward and two steps back kind of idea.

    I'm not saying that 7.0.2 was perfect , just that, outside of the newer features for the new game + the database update , its a far superior game as things currently stand.


    I was thinking about this too. If they updated the database and added the feature with the faces of generated players to the 2007 version I would still play that.

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    Well said. The last FM I played was FM05, I skipped 06 and 07, but 08 isn't a great deal different which makes it disappointing. I do like the new skin but a new skin does not make a new game.

    I'm largely frustrated that no further innovation has been made to tactics, the way they are presented and match day. As I've mentioned in other posts, it's such a core part of the game but it's stagnating. Sure the match engine has been tweaked but the presentation hasn't changed since CM4, which makes me wonder where SI are spending their development time.

    Any other type of game and it would've been completely revamped by now, but 6 versions on and we still get the same thing each release. It's depressing.

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    How can you think there's not much difference between 05 and 08?

    Have you played 05 recently? Its a massively inferior game.

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    I am just wondering, did FM06 or FM07 get as many complaints as FM08 gets?

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Ackter:
    How can you think there's not much difference between 05 and 08?

    Have you played 05 recently? Its a massively inferior game.


    Of course a three year old game should be inferior.

    Obviously there have been added features that you would expect since '05, but do you think the match engine has progressed significantly since '05 ?

    The training certainly hasn't, still the same crude which nobody can justify and other fundamental features haven't improved greatly since then.

    When are SI going to stop this repeatable cycle of releasing a new tiresome version with a few tweaks here and there.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Smoothiebaloo:
    I am just wondering, did FM06 or FM07 get as many complaints as FM08 gets?


    Same, just about different things.

    It's a routine for some people and often serves only to cloud any real issues.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by gazzamcg:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Ackter:
    How can you think there's not much difference between 05 and 08?

    Have you played 05 recently? Its a massively inferior game.


    Of course a three year old game should be inferior.

    Obviously there have been added features that you would expect since '05, but do you think the match engine has progressed significantly since '05 ?

    The training certainly hasn't, still the same crude which nobody can justify and other fundamental features haven't improved greatly since then.

    When are SI going to stop this repeatable cycle of releasing a new tiresome version with a few tweaks here and there.


    Yes, the match engine is far superior, especially to 5.0.0. The training is far superior under the hood, despite looking similar.

    The only things that's similar, though it's still been noticeably improved, is the transfers.

    The contract negotiation back then is much worse than it is now. Zaccardo wanting a raise of £66k a week over his £4k wages for example.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Smoothiebaloo:
    I am just wondering, did FM06 or FM07 get as many complaints as FM08 gets?


    Yes, but they were spread out over many different bugs.

    The main problem on the forums is that the complaints are all about the same 5 or 6 bugs.

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    I think ifllorescu has a lot of good points that others also mentions.. Is the code really getting so complicated that it actually brings the game backwards instead of forwards? The same will then be the reason of why it takes so long to release a patch, and why they still not might make the game any better... If so, priority one must be to get a match engine that is stable enough to handle changes and improvements without messing up the game.

    Still after reading my own thread here, I was just starting to think if many of the posts in the forum here are a case of "shooting the pianist". Is it SI that decides to develp the game this way, or is it really SEGA or others that are pushing the game in the wrong direction? There is a lot of pressure from the forum users here, but no matter how bad this or any future versions will be, you would never experience SI go out and say "We're sorry, and agrees that the game is crap". That would be a corporate suicide, and not accepted by SEGA or anyone else connected to SI. Therefore they have to work as kind of a shield towards the ones who really is to blame, which makes us even more frustrating as we then think that we don't even get any understanding from the ones who actually invented this game and should treat it as their baby.. It's just a thought, and I don't even know if I agree with myself, but it's worth taking into consideration, as many discussions easily will go in wrong directions if this is the case. As we all remember SI and Eidos splitted up for some of the similar reasons...

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Ackter:
    How can you think there's not much difference between 05 and 08?

    Have you played 05 recently? Its a massively inferior game.


    My comment was in terms of view matches, tactical settings, match statistics etc which is the core component of the game. The match engine itself that moves all the 'lady bugs' around is superior but all the pieces surrounding that hasn't.

    If this was a RTS, a developer would've changed the graphics by now, enhanced the tactical interface and added more features to it. (Note this is context with tactics and match day, not the game overall).

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    Ok I gethca. No there' not much difference there.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Ackter:
    Ok I gethca. No there' not much difference there.


    Which is largley where my disappointment lies. The tactical part of the game could be enhanced further and with more statistics provided, we seem to only get the bare minimum.

    Action Zones for instance hasn't change for I don't know how long, but this could be developed further either by splitting the possession statistics down to positions or each each third split into 3 seperate areas: Left, Middle & Right.

    That's just one thing that springs to mind.

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    FM2008 is a great game but is not close to be perfect. You can't play it as you like, there are some things that you should have in mind, as avoiding some tactics that now don't work, pay attention to tactics...
    I agree that a team with best players will be a top club, even if they are playing awful for their level. game should focus more on interactions, ME should be tweaked to have good results, and some things must be more comprehensive.
    At my current game I'm in 2024 with a non-league club brought to EPL. After finishing 17,16 and 11, last season a lots of teams performed bad and I managed to finish 3rd with 65 points (chelsea and wet ham managed 86-85). This year board expects me to finish at least 5th, despite my players are useless (I only play with welsh players and chaiman sold the best).
    This season I played charity trophy, because I won FA cup (easiest pairings and luck against Arsenal). I was on holiday (I haven't noticed) and lost 4-0, because my players are crap and team did not use my tactics. My team only relies on my tactics, but board also expects a top performing from me. If I don't have success I'm sure I'll sacked. It's not fair :/

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Ackter:
    It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet.


    So mate, you think FM2008 has a PA of 200 and CA of 78, but sadly stuck in a smallish club without much facility and coaches with only 3-4 stars ability...

    I agree...100%

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    Replying specifically to the shots to goals ratio issue...

    If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is perceived to be poor finishing and/or great goalkeeping (loads of shots, not enough goals).

    Are we looking at this "problem" the wrong way round though??

    Statistically there is an average of 2.5 goals per game in professional football (you can argue it may be 2.3 or 2.7, but you get my point).

    If the match engine produces an average of 2.5 goals per game over the course of a season in a whole division, then SI can argue the results are realistic.

    If that is the case then is the match engine producing too many shots, rather than too few goals??

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    How much different a thread can be when the OP is decent and written nicely. Unfortunately this is such a huge game that one change affects a lot of things. So now SI can't implement serious changes without changing other stuff. The s/g ratio right now is an example, they need to fix the match engine and the way matches are played out rather than just up the s/g ratio. That's a pretty big issue by itself. This means we're stuck with small enhancements unless they decide not to release the game for one year. There's been a lot of changes to the ME this year? It's being fixed right now, so that hasn't worked out well has it...The all-new confidence is a joke. I'm sure SI means well and these are good improvements if they work. But one year(or even less taking into account patches for the previous game etc.) is just not enough to release a much better, improved game with new and working features imho. If it can be done, great. I'll hang my head in shame and go buy it. But it seems like that's not the case anymore.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by achilles elbow:
    Replying specifically to the shots to goals ratio issue...

    If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is perceived to be poor finishing and/or great goalkeeping (loads of shots, not enough goals).

    Are we looking at this "problem" the wrong way round though??

    Statistically there is an average of 2.5 goals per game in professional football (you can argue it may be 2.3 or 2.7, but you get my point).

    If the match engine produces an average of 2.5 goals per game over the course of a season in a whole division, then SI can argue the results are realistic.

    If that is the case then is the match engine producing too many shots, rather than too few goals??


    Thats precisely what the problem is.

    This is why it annoys me when you get some people making assumptions about the issue- they presume that its just people moaning as they cannot win.

    In my experience this does not affect your results- although it increases the amount of times you will get beaten by a team creating nowhere near the amout of chances that user tactics can create. Its just a very annoying issue as it makes watching games very tedious- even just on key highlights.

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    Also from experience if you just use the supplied tactics you dont get affected as much as you do with custom tactics.

    I really want to get into the tactical side and teamtalks, but have just got fed up with a) having to workaround issues, b) having to workout SIs interpretation of football in terms of what affects what and what is effective under certain conditions, as imo there ideas do not always match my perception of real life (note I say perception here!).

    So if you frustrated by FM08 give the built-in tactics a try.

  38. #38
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    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    quote:
    Originally posted by achilles elbow:
    Replying specifically to the shots to goals ratio issue...

    If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is perceived to be poor finishing and/or great goalkeeping (loads of shots, not enough goals).

    Are we looking at this "problem" the wrong way round though??

    Statistically there is an average of 2.5 goals per game in professional football (you can argue it may be 2.3 or 2.7, but you get my point).

    If the match engine produces an average of 2.5 goals per game over the course of a season in a whole division, then SI can argue the results are realistic.

    If that is the case then is the match engine producing too many shots, rather than too few goals??


    Thats precisely what the problem is.

    This is why it annoys me when you get some people making assumptions about the issue- they presume that its just people moaning as they cannot win.

    In my experience this does not affect your results- although it increases the amount of times you will get beaten by a team creating nowhere near the amout of chances that user tactics can create. Its just a very annoying issue as it makes watching games very tedious- even just on key highlights.


    BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too.


    Agree with this quite strongly. Statistically the goals ratio is about right for scored and conceeded but the creation of clear chances not converted, in the match engine view anyway, is way too high.

    Also, have they done something to reduce shot power and players going round the keeper? I haven't seen much of either in this version of FM.

    Very good original post by the way. Seems to sum up a lot of the issues and I'm glad this thread at least hasn't turned into a row like most have.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    quote:
    Originally posted by achilles elbow:
    Replying specifically to the shots to goals ratio issue...

    If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is perceived to be poor finishing and/or great goalkeeping (loads of shots, not enough goals).

    Are we looking at this "problem" the wrong way round though??

    Statistically there is an average of 2.5 goals per game in professional football (you can argue it may be 2.3 or 2.7, but you get my point).

    If the match engine produces an average of 2.5 goals per game over the course of a season in a whole division, then SI can argue the results are realistic.

    If that is the case then is the match engine producing too many shots, rather than too few goals??


    Thats precisely what the problem is.
    This is why it annoys me when you get some people making assumptions about the issue- they presume that its just people moaning as they cannot win.

    In my experience this does not affect your results- although it increases the amount of times you will get beaten by a team creating nowhere near the amout of chances that user tactics can create. Its just a very annoying issue as it makes watching games very tedious- even just on key highlights.


    BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too.


    Thanks God someone else has eventually seens sense.

    I've been posting that for weeks now and everyone else has just continued to rant on and on about Super keepers .

  41. #41
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Thunder God:
    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too.


    Agree with this quite strongly. Statistically the goals ratio is about right for scored and conceeded but the creation of clear chances not converted, in the match engine view anyway, is way too high.

    Also, have they done something to reduce shot power and players going round the keeper? I haven't seen much of either in this version of FM.

    Very good original post by the way. Seems to sum up a lot of the issues and I'm glad this thread at least hasn't turned into a row like most have.


    I think finishing as a whole was nerfed for 8.01.

    As imo the release version (for all its closing down issues) was brilliant from an attacking perspective- the sheer range and variety of finishes was superb. The things I miss most was:

    * The frequency of power shots- after all with the new light balls even I can hit screamers, so why this was toned down so much is beyond me- as really any pro will be able to hit a ball with power, accuracy is another thing- so they shouldve kept power but tweaked the accurarcy.

    * Curling shots- very rare in 8.01, and I used to love it when a player was 1v1 at an angle and would curl it delicately around the keeper, even when they went narrowly wide it was cool.

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    Interesting topic to be honest. One thing that could well be true is the creation of what appears to be clear-cut chances in the ME (although let's not forget that some of the chances might not actually be clear cut, we just imagine them to be).

    What I will say regarding shots-to-goals ratio is that IRL, from what I've seen, the away team tends to score a greater percentage of goals from shots on target (SoT). I don't know why this is, but a cursory look at last week's chances reveals this to appear true. E.g., many away teams had a goals from SoT percentage of between 25-50%, whilst home teams averaged around 10-40%. This could well be down to the fact that home teams will usually simply create more chances.

    Hmmm, more stuff to ponder. I want a job as a football statician.

  43. #43
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    quote:
    Originally posted by achilles elbow:
    Replying specifically to the shots to goals ratio issue...

    If I understand the issue correctly, the problem is perceived to be poor finishing and/or great goalkeeping (loads of shots, not enough goals).

    Are we looking at this "problem" the wrong way round though??

    Statistically there is an average of 2.5 goals per game in professional football (you can argue it may be 2.3 or 2.7, but you get my point).

    If the match engine produces an average of 2.5 goals per game over the course of a season in a whole division, then SI can argue the results are realistic.

    If that is the case then is the match engine producing too many shots, rather than too few goals??


    Thats precisely what the problem is.
    This is why it annoys me when you get some people making assumptions about the issue- they presume that its just people moaning as they cannot win.

    In my experience this does not affect your results- although it increases the amount of times you will get beaten by a team creating nowhere near the amout of chances that user tactics can create. Its just a very annoying issue as it makes watching games very tedious- even just on key highlights.


    BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too.


    Thanks God someone else has eventually seens sense.

    I've been posting that for weeks now and everyone else has just continued to rant on and on about Super keepers .


    Eventually? Lol- I saw it from day one, I think many others have too. Pretty sure this thread focuses on poor finishing and not superkeepers:

    http://community.sigames.com/eve/for...1/m/4982071363

  44. #44
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    quote:
    Originally posted by GillsMan:
    Interesting topic to be honest. One thing that could well be true is the creation of what appears to be clear-cut chances in the ME (although let's not forget that some of the chances might not actually be clear cut, we just imagine them to be).



    I cant speak for others, but when my striker/s only has the keeper to beat 10+ times per game then those chances are clearcut.

    If they arent then its down to the 2D not showing correctly what the match engine is calculating.

    I know many will just go by the match stats- but I tend to watch the games, and this is why this issue annoys me- it just makes watching the 2D very tedious.

    So glad that by using the builtin tactics that this issue is much improved.

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    tmolvik, i give you 100% right. Unfortunatly SI won't which will be the reason that FM08 is my first- and last- game of SI. I really get ****ed off by those hard-core SI-fans who scream: "it's your tactics, it's like that in real life"

    While people rant about only one aspect (missed chances, super-GK,..) it is obviuos all these thing belong together, because they are all part of the same crappy match engine. SI has to do someting about the whole aspect of the match engine or the game will stay a flop.

    Personnaly i find it unacceptable that a game that has come out end of octobre only will work in february, and even that is not yet for sure.

  46. #46
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    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Thunder God:
    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    BTW people arent wrong by mentioning poor finishing/great goalkeeping- as this is a symptom of the issue, alongside a) the creation of unrealistically high numbers of shots, b) in particular lots of one v ones too.


    Agree with this quite strongly. Statistically the goals ratio is about right for scored and conceeded but the creation of clear chances not converted, in the match engine view anyway, is way too high.

    Also, have they done something to reduce shot power and players going round the keeper? I haven't seen much of either in this version of FM.

    Very good original post by the way. Seems to sum up a lot of the issues and I'm glad this thread at least hasn't turned into a row like most have.


    I think finishing as a whole was nerfed for 8.01.

    As imo the release version (for all its closing down issues) was brilliant from an attacking perspective- the sheer range and variety of finishes was superb. The things I miss most was:

    * The frequency of power shots- after all with the new light balls even I can hit screamers, so why this was toned down so much is beyond me- as really any pro will be able to hit a ball with power, accuracy is another thing- so they shouldve kept power but tweaked the accurarcy.

    * Curling shots- very rare in 8.01, and I used to love it when a player was 1v1 at an angle and would curl it delicately around the keeper, even when they went narrowly wide it was cool.


    Yeah, really missing all of the above, particularly miss glorious curling long shots.

    It would be nice to see a player go around a keeper once and a while too.

    Becomes very depressing to see strikers pass the ball into keepers midrifts all the time

  47. #47
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    I really do think that the match engine is really struggling to give you a visual reprensentation of what is going on in the game, chances that look like great chances often being saved/missed for example.

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    I still have a big problem with tactics, mainly because often it feels like a lottery and often I have no idea where I'm going wrong. I'll be doing really well, but will suddenly hit a form slump, even though I seem to be creating the same chances. Do I tweak it or do I keep it the same? Which parts of my tactic are being exposed? I'd like much more interaction from coaches and assistant managers here, especially for those who don't have the time/patience to watch matches on full to find out where a tactic has suddenly started to break down.

    I also like the slider system, but find it quite limited. If I want my fullback or centre-half to make sure they stay goal-side of a player, I have to try and find the correct combination of team instructions, player instructions and opposition instructions. Why don't I have the option to go to my defender and tell him precisely where he should be on the pitch? Why can't I tell my wide men that it's really important the team keeps it's shape against a certain team who can exploit it?

    In essence, I guess I just don't feel in control of my team enough. The slider system for team instructions is fine, but individual player instructions to me don't feel personal enough. Where is the bread and butter stuff?

  49. #49
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    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    quote:
    Originally posted by GillsMan:
    Interesting topic to be honest. One thing that could well be true is the creation of what appears to be clear-cut chances in the ME (although let's not forget that some of the chances might not actually be clear cut, we just imagine them to be).



    I cant speak for others, but when my striker/s only has the keeper to beat 10+ times per game then those chances are clearcut.

    If they arent then its down to the 2D not showing correctly what the match engine is calculating.

    I know many will just go by the match stats- but I tend to watch the games, and this is why this issue annoys me- it just makes watching the 2D very tedious.

    So glad that by using the builtin tactics that this issue is much improved.

    But that's not much of a solution, is it? For me the main thing that makes this game interesting is building your own tactics and trying your own ideas. If I can create a tactic that creates a lot of easy 1 on 1 chances it should mean I'm doing something right. Having to find a workaround by trying to create different types of chances totally spoils the enjoyment of the game for me. I could accept it if it was weird, unrealistic formations and tactics that did this but my slightly modified 4-4-2 diamond does it as well.

    Although the scores are realistic (ie there doesn't seem to be too many or too few goals compared to RL) there is just too many chances in the game and way too many one on ones. It could be that SI took the wrong approach to fix those issues and instead of trying to reduce number of one on ones they reduced the possibility of scoring from one.

    I still win most of my games but all this makes watching the game really tedious indeed. It annoys me to the point that I've stopped playing the game until the new patch arrives.

  50. #50
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Buzdovan:
    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    quote:
    Originally posted by GillsMan:
    Interesting topic to be honest. One thing that could well be true is the creation of what appears to be clear-cut chances in the ME (although let's not forget that some of the chances might not actually be clear cut, we just imagine them to be).



    I cant speak for others, but when my striker/s only has the keeper to beat 10+ times per game then those chances are clearcut.

    If they arent then its down to the 2D not showing correctly what the match engine is calculating.

    I know many will just go by the match stats- but I tend to watch the games, and this is why this issue annoys me- it just makes watching the 2D very tedious.

    So glad that by using the builtin tactics that this issue is much improved.

    But that's not much of a solution, is it? For me the main thing that makes this game interesting is building your own tactics and trying your own ideas. If I can create a tactic that creates a lot of easy 1 on 1 chances it should mean I'm doing something right. Having to find a workaround by trying to create different types of chances totally spoils the enjoyment of the game for me. I could accept it if it was weird, unrealistic formations and tactics that did this but my slightly modified 4-4-2 diamond does it as well.

    Although the scores are realistic (ie there doesn't seem to be too many or too few goals compared to RL) there is just too many chances in the game and way too many one on ones. It could be that SI took the wrong approach to fix those issues and instead of trying to reduce number of one on ones they reduced the possibility of scoring from one.

    I still win most of my games but all this makes watching the game really tedious indeed. It annoys me to the point that I've stopped playing the game until the new patch arrives.


    Im not saying it is- but theres nothing wrong with posting it to help others who are frustrated with the game and want to play it is there?

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    quote:
    Originally posted by sirdez24:
    I still have a big problem with tactics, mainly because often it feels like a lottery and often I have no idea where I'm going wrong. I'll be doing really well, but will suddenly hit a form slump, even though I seem to be creating the same chances. Do I tweak it or do I keep it the same? Which parts of my tactic are being exposed? I'd like much more interaction from coaches and assistant managers here, especially for those who don't have the time/patience to watch matches on full to find out where a tactic has suddenly started to break down.

    I also like the slider system, but find it quite limited. If I want my fullback or centre-half to make sure they stay goal-side of a player, I have to try and find the correct combination of team instructions, player instructions and opposition instructions. Why don't I have the option to go to my defender and tell him precisely where he should be on the pitch? Why can't I tell my wide men that it's really important the team keeps it's shape against a certain team who can exploit it?

    In essence, I guess I just don't feel in control of my team enough. The slider system for team instructions is fine, but individual player instructions to me don't feel personal enough. Where is the bread and butter stuff?


    Im the same- I often feel that Im at the mercy of individual errors, rather than clearly seeing my tactics go wrong.

    Now this is realistic- as managers all over the world tear their hair out when players make mistakes or unforced errors.

    But in the real world a manager can take a player aside and have a word, or even show the whole team where they didnt follow his instructions or failed to do what they should be doing by analysing the game and pointing out mistakes.

    Now I dont expect the full gamut of options available to a real life manager but come on SI give us something!!!!

    FM is cursed by occurances that at the very best we have a very indirect and generalised way of dealing with- and in the context of the game this is not "fair" on the gamer.

    I just do not feel I am managing a team of real life players- as the options to communicate with them are so limited.

    We need more- even if its just the ability to say "why did you do X?" when my tactics specifically said Y. Or how about diving? Its so random and is horrible when your expecting a player to shoot but he dives when under no pressure (and even sometimes gets a second yellow and thus Red)- we cant even tell a player we dont want him diving.

    The game is becoming paperthin and very stale- the brand new features this year were pretty poor and things like matchflow are not enough to keep this game fresh.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Ackter:
    It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet.


    I agree with Ackter - If our friends at SI get their act together, then version 8.0.2 on Football Manager will be the best version on FM/CM ever - and that's not even an exaggeration!

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    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Buzdovan:
    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    quote:
    Originally posted by GillsMan:
    Interesting topic to be honest. One thing that could well be true is the creation of what appears to be clear-cut chances in the ME (although let's not forget that some of the chances might not actually be clear cut, we just imagine them to be).



    I cant speak for others, but when my striker/s only has the keeper to beat 10+ times per game then those chances are clearcut.

    If they arent then its down to the 2D not showing correctly what the match engine is calculating.

    I know many will just go by the match stats- but I tend to watch the games, and this is why this issue annoys me- it just makes watching the 2D very tedious.

    So glad that by using the builtin tactics that this issue is much improved.

    But that's not much of a solution, is it? For me the main thing that makes this game interesting is building your own tactics and trying your own ideas. If I can create a tactic that creates a lot of easy 1 on 1 chances it should mean I'm doing something right. Having to find a workaround by trying to create different types of chances totally spoils the enjoyment of the game for me. I could accept it if it was weird, unrealistic formations and tactics that did this but my slightly modified 4-4-2 diamond does it as well.

    Although the scores are realistic (ie there doesn't seem to be too many or too few goals compared to RL) there is just too many chances in the game and way too many one on ones. It could be that SI took the wrong approach to fix those issues and instead of trying to reduce number of one on ones they reduced the possibility of scoring from one.

    I still win most of my games but all this makes watching the game really tedious indeed. It annoys me to the point that I've stopped playing the game until the new patch arrives.


    Im not saying it is- but theres nothing wrong with posting it to help others who are frustrated with the game and want to play it is there?

    Of course there isn't and it definitely does help.

    I usually play the game in LAN with two friends. One of them is having the same problem as me and the other one uses pretty much a default tactic and has no issues. I have also noticed that AI vs AI games seem fine number of shots wise but they also miss a lot of one on ones.

  54. #54
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    The issue is to do with inconsistancy in the match engine between the user and AI teams.

    And some of the results it produces are very unrealistic. On 13 times out of 30 games with Man Utd I've failed to turn a draw into a victory. Despite dominating most of those game.

    Why can't we just have the 7.0.2 engine back, that was much more realistic , without giving too higher goals per game.

    Also another thing is that teams with naturally more attacking football and better players will score more goals. But the game doesn't seem to reflect this , even though it reflects the amount of chances that they create.

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    The thing thats annoyed me recently is those games, whether its against lesser teams or top teams, where it feels like the result is pre-determined. Where you just know a last minute equaliser will come even if they are down to nine men and playing below their normal standard. Or when you have been on a long winning streak, which ends for no apparent reason you can see, which makes you feel like the computer thought it was time to lose.

    Given many of the factors mentioned by the original poster, the problem can be identifying why you are underperforming? Is it moral, which I think is far too easy to damage, or is it tactics, which are way too important? Or is it because I didn't give enough attention to opponent instructions and individual tactics, which, to be honest, bore me and would stop me from playing if I had to spend hours doing this?

    Who knows, maybe its all of them. SI has a difficult job on their hands as people want realism, but also fun. if it was ultra realistic, then you would be spending a week on every game, but how much fun is that?

    As to the people saying about new features, and how they work/or don't etc. I understand this fully. however...

    Last year I plugged in my barely working amiga, and had a blast on some of the games. I then found a championship manager game from around 1994 I think. I loaded a game up, had a fiddle about, and switched it off within half an hour. Why? Because I couldn't do half the stuff I wanted to, it was slow, there was no interaction.

    Its probably similar if you try playing fm 05 (can't say for certain as never owned it). Play that now after a few hours on fm08 and you'll be crying out for some of the new features to be available.

    The version I've played on most is CM00/01. I enjoyed it because it was simple when you wanted it to be, but if you wanted to go further into detail, you could. Thats what I'd like now, a game that once you've set up your tactics, strategy and so on, you can either get on with things with only minor tweaking. surely this is how it is done in real life? Man utd generally play with the same tactic, and similar personel. If there is a dangerman, fergie will deal with that, or if he needs new players he'll go shopping. but he won't be altering tactics in any major way, and can say pretty much what he likes in public without his players bawling their eyes out. and if they do, he can quite simply deal with it however he sees fit. I know thats simplifying it a bit, but we are suppose to be playing a game, not taking a managerment course.

    If SI came up with a perfect match engine and game, I would happily pay money for solely an update to the database. If I buy a new game, say for example half life, I don't expect to be buying a new version of it the following year. Yet with football manager, every single year a new version comes out.

    I'm sorry if this post is a bit here and there, I've written it as I've thought it. I agree with the original poster, there are a collection of things that need correcting. But this game is still very good, and I do appreciate the hard job SI have. everyone wants something different from the game. With the later championship manager games I felt they were getting there, a game that could be relatively simple once you got to know it, but could also provide deeper play for people who wanted to tinker. With this version, the first football manager I have significantly played, I feel there is too much going on. It feels like I don't have a choice to play more simply if I choose to anymore, only that I have to play in great detail whether I want to or not. And thats, for me at least, is taking some of the fun away.

  56. #56
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    Very nice post by neilb242. I totally agree with the aspect that many of us complain about how nice earlier versions was, but still wouldn't play them again because they're missing important features. At the same time I also agree that when I open a new game every year, a new database with the latest transfers is just as important as a new feature. Of course the game needs to renew itself, but not every year and not when time pressure affects the quality of the game.

    At the same time I also found an interesting post by sirdez24 and George Graham, about the missing possibility of knowing why things go wrong. Further coach/ass.man interaction would be a great feature, but also some kind of feeback that shows you that the resaon that Cristiano Ronaldo netted 3 times against you was because your full back was way to slow. Or that your short passes did not work at all because of the muddy field. Don't know in which format, and not necisarrily that straight forward, but it will make tactics more interesting for people.

    What I must say I disagree a bit with, is the wishes for even more features before SI has managed to get in control over those already implemented. We all would like new features, but not at any costs I hope?

    Anyway thank you all for keeping this thread as a serious and calm discussion without any name calling or screaming at SI. Hopefully it will be a thread which they also might get something useful out of

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    Excellent post!!! I especially agree with "cracking tactics" part.

    Altough previous versions were not perfect, they were playable, this is the first version since I'm playing CM/FM (and I'm playing it for last 10 years) that is simply unplayable, simply not realistic enough. And I'm not talking about minor anooyances, like in every game, ME in FM 2008 really put a stick in your eyes.

  58. #58
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    Thank you, and that might also be one of the most annoying parts, as it is completely unrealistic.

    It also kills me that my opposition keeps on scoring at de end of added time. When they get a chance 2.46 into the three minutes of added time it never goes wrong that they score. I'm sure it is not a bug, and that there is someway one can prevent it by keep cracking tactics, but it's still irritating..

  59. #59
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    You've made some good points here.

    Somewhere on this list, someone from SI admitted that they have tweaked the finishing power of strikers.

    The problem as I see it is that too many chances are being created due to midfielders being too good and defenders being too poor. A world-class midfielder playing against world class defenders may produce two or three defence splitting passes in a game certainly not seven or eight.

    As for tactics, if this game is about realism, why are SI trying to stop 'killer' tactics. These do not happen in real-life and a 2-2-2-4 tactic would be destroyed by any real-life team.

    The only exception I can think of was Brazil's 4-2-4 tactic in the 1950's. It worked for a while because they had great players.

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    4-2-4 was not that suicidal, and it was widely employed at that time. Actually, it's only a step from the current 4-4-2.

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    Another problem with the shot/goals-ratio problem, is that I think it also will have something to do with the confidence issue. If you read your match confidence after a typical s/g-match, you often see your supporter spokesperson tellgin you that your fans are dissapointed with the teams inability to convert chances into goals.. As your surroundings total perception of you (which I guess is some kind of median of all feedback during the season) affects if you keep your job or not, this will then indirectly decide your faith. A bit scary when you hear many stories of players/managers who are getting sacked even though they have brought success to their club.

  62. #62
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    I also stopped playing FM. Too many silly little bugs both in the match engine and in the overall AI.

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    I was reading this post and i found it very interesting, so i decided to add my opinion..
    In addition to all things written here, there is something that i find unrealistic:
    all teams can "travel" far too easy from their box to the opponent's one. I see often player running with the ball (well not only running, sprinting..) 60 -70 yards, running between the defenders who seems rooted to the ground. IRL u can see a coast-to-coast 1 or 2 times in a year, and when it happens everyone talk about that as something exceptional.. Here it happens even at very low levels.
    Again, u can see lots of 50-60 yard perfect passes, with the ball "on fly" for some seconds and no defenders moving until the attacker stopped the ball. Obviuosly, those perfect passes even at very low levels.
    I could go on, but i think my opinion (obviously is an opinion and not "The Truth") is clear; however what i described help the ME to create lots of chances.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by emgergo:
    4-2-4 was not that suicidal, and it was widely employed at that time. Actually, it's only a step from the current 4-4-2.


    Exactly - if you watch current day Man United, whoever is out wide, sat Ronaldo and Giggs, will push forward far enough to create a 4-2-4 in effect. However they also push back in the build up so it's not strictly a two man midfield, which would get eaten alive.

  65. #65
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    I have to agree with what a lot of others have said already. SI say this is the best version yet, and I would broadly go along with that. But it will only be seen as such by us, the players, if the issues that have been so well covered over the last few months get resolved.
    I can't say that I have seen anyone caning sides in terms of shots 11 v. 11 in my game post-patch (but then I did go back to Beta 1), but what I have seen is the 'cracked tactics' issue, whereby my team who had previously lost two in eleven - and only four in twenty-five - suddenly couldn't find any space whatsoever, couldn't shoot, and even when defenders were goal-side, couldn't stop shots flying past the keeper from well outside the box.
    Due to other posts here, I started watching games in their entirety and saw my players suddenly ignoring the instructions that they had previously adhered to well, while at the same time I started losing 3-1 despite the opposition only having three shots on target - my previously tight defence and MOM winning keeper were suddenly looking as easy to beat as my nephew's side would be against Arsenal's first XI.
    Losing I can handle, and although I knew better than to think the game cheated (why would it, even if it could?), I felt that something was very wrong with the AI's ability to adapt. I don't mind it learning to deal with my tactics and players at all - it's realistic for managers to try to nullify threats while also keeping their own options open - but this isn't a battle of wits between bosses, it's something else, as nothing I tried had any effect.
    Again as others have said, the ME is a huge problem area. I have had strikers in good form not bothering to go for crosses, watching them run out instead, and crosses themselves are a problem, as I have to set the wingers to 'cross often' for them to cross at all...and of course regardless of instructions they tend to overhit crosses or smack them into the box despite no one being there.

    Ultimately, though, all the players complaining about these things can't be wrong. SI might say that it's a simulation, you have to do X, Y and Z, as a real manager would, but while I am all for accuracy in some respects, I really don't have the time (or inclination) to treat a computer game that seriously. A bit of thought, yes, but if I wanted the stresses and strains of actually managing, I'd get my badges and start earning the rewards. Plus, as has been said elsewhere, IRL there would be more interaction with players, telling them where they had gone wrong, what they needed to do to improve, etc. - things that would be too time-consuming and fiddly to include in FM.
    I just hope that SI realize the strength of feeling surrounding this game and do it justice, if not...well, people might not take a punt on 09. As things stand, I won't. I told the missus that 08 would be the last version I got - though I said that about 06 and 07.
    This time I fear I might not have been kidding. But we shall see what we shall see.

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    Sorry about long post, btw.

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    A lot of people seem to be getting frustrated watching games. Defenders running in treacle, forwards shooting straight at the gk, players not going for crosses.
    But the graphics are just a representation of events that have already been calculated. So if the match engine calculates a missed chance the graphics find a way to display that. The problem seems to be a two part one, first the game is calculating too many chances in some circumstances, second the unrealistic ways this is sometimes displayed. Once SI work out what is causing the first problem and adjust it the graphics part won't be so obvious.
    Strikers shooting straight at GK's is nothing new it has always been in FM, it is just more noticable due to the large number of chances.

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    I think KDR has many valid points in his post, but as he also is mentioning, one gets to feel that SI isn't taking it to seriously. I especially recognize the feeling that no matter what you do, it won't affect the match result, as AI kind of has decided that it should win this game. If tactics should have the influence that it has right now, and I then mean that tactics beats ability and the AI-cracking of it, then at least it should a battle of tactics and not AI pre-calculations. Also "normal" tactics that doesn't has to be changed and tweaked all the time, must have it's value..

    When it comes to hammersjj post, I just don't hope he is correct. It's a very interesting post, but if it's correct then SI might as well just get rid of the 2d-engine, and rather work on developing the normal one towards perfection.

  69. #69
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    Location: England
    Registered: 06 October 2003[/quote]
    Exactly - if you watch current day Man United, whoever is out wide, sat Ronaldo and Giggs, will push forward far enough to create a 4-2-4 in effect. However they also push back in the build up so it's not strictly a two man midfield, which would get eaten alive.
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    Exactly. This system succeeds because they have the players to make it work.

    The problem at the moment is that match engine allows AI managed Farsley Celtic to use it to devastating effect.

    Also, the match engine has been tuned to make other super tactics less effective. In real life these 'super' tactics just do not exist.

  70. #70
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    quote:

    I have to agree with what a lot of others have said already. SI say this is the best version yet, and I would broadly go along with that. But it will only be seen as such by us, the players, if the issues that have been so well covered over the last few months get resolved.
    I can't say that I have seen anyone caning sides in terms of shots 11 v. 11 in my game post-patch (but then I did go back to Beta 1), but what I have seen is the 'cracked tactics' issue, whereby my team who had previously lost two in eleven - and only four in twenty-five - suddenly couldn't find any space whatsoever, couldn't shoot, and even when defenders were goal-side, couldn't stop shots flying past the keeper from well outside the box.


    It's interesting you attribute this to your tactics being cracked. I have suffered the same thing for the last couple of versions but never put it down to that. I find that I always go on stupid runs on FM. It's like win 20 games in a row, lose 10 in a row, draw 10 in a row. There seems to be no sensible distribution of results sometimes. It is one of the many things which annoys me with it !

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    sorry this has nothing to do with the post and i can;t start new threads so here it goes.

    italy have just won Euro 2008 on my save. i get a new message on my news screen showing the European Championship Dream Team. nothing unusual until i take a proper look. the WHOLE starting 11 where Italian! WTF!!!

    Biased voting if ya ask me.

  72. #72
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    this is the worst version yet its feels so rushed when you play it everything doesn't seem to glide smoothly for me the whole match day bit looks tacky I actually wonder if EA made this game it's that bad ?! I would normally just go play pro evo until that sorted the game out but that's just as bug ridden !

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    quote:
    When it comes to hammersjj post, I just don't hope he is correct. It's a very interesting post, but if it's correct then SI might as well just get rid of the 2d-engine, and rather work on developing the normal one towards perfection.


    The graphics are basically a movie of the game that the engine has worked out before it starts, if you make any changes (subs etc) the engine recalculates from that point on based on your change and generates a new movie. But if you and the opposition made no changes the result of the game is known before the graphical game starts. Just not known to you so the effect is the same.

  74. #74
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    i think some people are over reacting because tbh its still just a game ! (the old cliche ) but no one at si should be meeting about how this is a shambles as i saw earlier because they are doing their best . yes the bugs are annoying and i am waiting for the patch to play the game in full intstead of messing around but until then i can wait . thanks

  75. #75
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    quote:
    Originally posted by hammersjj:
    quote:
    When it comes to hammersjj post, I just don't hope he is correct. It's a very interesting post, but if it's correct then SI might as well just get rid of the 2d-engine, and rather work on developing the normal one towards perfection.


    The graphics are basically a movie of the game that the engine has worked out before it starts, if you make any changes (subs etc) the engine recalculates from that point on based on your change and generates a new movie. But if you and the opposition made no changes the result of the game is known before the graphical game starts. Just not known to you so the effect is the same.


    I agree that the match is pre-calculated, and I'm sure the videos are also, but I felt that you were suggesting that the graphic display didn't take tactics into considerating. With that I mean, that even if you have crosses on "always" you won't necissarily see them in the graphic display, as its just creating som kind of random "scene" to present a highlight.. I guess I misunderstood then

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    No sorry you have misunderstood a little, I wasn't referring to tactics at all really. I assume the game allows for tactics to effect the movie you see. The point I was trying to make was the shots/goals ratio problem seems to frustrate people because they have to watch a world class striker miss 10 chances a game.

    Some people don't realize it is pre-calculated and think that the game you watch is unfolding before there eyes as it happens. So they think that if a striker with high finishing gets clean through he should score. In reality the game has worked out before he got through that this is a missed chance so at that instant in the movie his finishing rating really doesn't matter. This leads to frustration and complaint that the game doesn't work.

    By the way nice opening post, quite a few people on these boards with English as their first language could learn a lot about how to go about things the right way from it.

  77. #77
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Wizard:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Ackter:
    It has the potential to be the best yet, but it's not there yet.


    So mate, you think FM2008 has a PA of 200 and CA of 78, but sadly stuck in a smallish club without much facility and coaches with only 3-4 stars ability...

    I agree...100%


    That's a great comparison!!!!

  78. #78
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    quote:
    Originally posted by hammersjj:
    A lot of people seem to be getting frustrated watching games. Defenders running in treacle, forwards shooting straight at the gk, players not going for crosses.
    But the graphics are just a representation of events that have already been calculated. So if the match engine calculates a missed chance the graphics find a way to display that. The problem seems to be a two part one, first the game is calculating too many chances in some circumstances, second the unrealistic ways this is sometimes displayed. Once SI work out what is causing the first problem and adjust it the graphics part won't be so obvious.
    Strikers shooting straight at GK's is nothing new it has always been in FM, it is just more noticable due to the large number of chances.


    Exactly. For me, watching the games is infuriating.

    There are so many reasons especially,

    The endless parade of 1v1's that don't score.

    Corners that the defender up by the taker blocks (seemingly like in basketball) or that go straight out. Ug!

    Basically, whether the match engine is good or not (and I think it is), the movie is not...yet.

    So, it really detracts from the experience.

  79. #79
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    complexity of ME and bringing new features/cosmetics to the game is reason, why we have "half made game", at the moment. in all aspects; tactics, traning, interaction, media, team talks, confidence... I can acept bugs in ME due to it's complexity, somehow but I can't accept new facegen technology instead of new training or tactics system.

    do they need to re write the game or just bring this one to another step? hard to decide. all I know is that most of features didn't change much for some time now.

    tactics for example. we have an army of sliders, team and individual, but we cannot say to to our player to come deep for the ball, for example or to stay back. that's basics in my opinoum. for years I'm trying to play my wingers more IRE like; to come deep to cut inside and I tried it all, but they still hold to their flank like some school boys and I'm yet to see free role working properly. why can't we say to our players to huge line or to cut inside? basics...

    too many sliders; if I have my player to attacking mentality, that means I'm giving him space to make forward runs, right? why do I have to tick it again? changing individual mentality this year is a step back. now mentality means simply where the players is passing the ball- back, and holding it if you play him defensive. or kickin it up front every time on attacking. I'm a liitle exeduring but the point still stands. simplify things and you'll bring more complexity. for example what are now prefered moves could be tactical features...

    training; all we have now is individual training system for improving attributes. it's ok but that is just one part of training. it would be nice to see some improvements like prepering for next match. you could set your tactics and then clikc prepere for next match. further you could set your team plan- when the game is egal, when you're loosing/wining. or maybe a feature when your strikers can't score. you should be able to tell your assistant to train hard on shooting, or maybe you'd like to employ off side trap, why not to have that option to work it out on training sessions... or an option to choose your place of preparing the team before world cup...

    there are so many things I can come up with but these two areas are really important in football and would like to see improvemnet on that. together with interaction (board, players, staff, fans) and media.

  80. #80
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    I forgot to mention....most of all what I would like to see is more human factor in the game. for example when the team scores players automaticly get more cautious, especialy in big and important matches. it freaks me out how some mid table team is playing like barca at the end of the matches, holding on to the ball like they have 11 messi's in the team. can't remeber ever to see some real pressure in the final minutes...

  81. #81
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    If i'm not mistaken...football manager is a simulation game...right?...so...what does simulation mean?

    It means that the game should be as real as possible with the real world...real situation...30 shots on goal but only manage to get one goal!!!!

    Is that real?????????

  82. #82
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    I forgot to mention....most of all what I would like to see is more human factor in the game. for example when the team scores players automaticly get more cautious, especialy in big and important matches. it freaks me out how some mid table team is playing like barca at the end of the matches, holding on to the ball like they have 11 messi's in the team. can't remeber ever to see some real pressure in the final minutes...


    I agree with you in all potential changes, but also I can say that I'm enjoying fm2008 as I've do with all cm's and fm's I've played.

    FM2009 with the changes you suggest would be great! (with board and transfers tweaks )

  83. #83
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    I am actually playing FM2007 at the moment (Not because I dislike FM2008, but because I've got a great save game on 07, while my 08 save is frustrating me), and having played that again I'd say the FM2008 match engine is actually an improvement in general.

    On FM2007 players close down far to

  84. #84
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    I am actually playing FM2007 at the moment (Not because I dislike FM2008, but because I've got a great save game on 07, while my 08 save is frustrating me), and having played that again I'd say the FM2008 match engine is actually an improvement in general.

    On FM2007 players close down far too enthusias

  85. #85
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    Why those 2 have appeared over 2 hours after I posted it I don't know.

    Here's the full post:

    I am actually playing FM2007 at the moment (Not because I dislike FM2008, but because I've got a great save game on 07, while my 08 save is frustrating me), and having played that again I'd say the FM2008 match engine is actually an improvement in general.



    On FM2007 players close down far too enthusiastically, and generally appear to have very little positional sense. Off the ball movement is poorer as well, and then there's the way jumping is far too influential.



    I agree with the op about the shots/goals ratio which is unrealistic. I think the reason this happens is because players do not anticipate situations very well. While on FM2007 they lacked positioning, they did read the game better and cover their opponents when a man got through. On FM2008 the opposite is the case with defenders sticking far too rigidly to the formation and instead of moving 5 yards to stop an opponent they let them waltz through and get a one on one chance.



    This problem extends into the midfield where I have given up trying to create a flat defensive 4-4-2. This is because without a DM when the opposition attacks me their midfielders run riot with forward runs, and my midfielders who stick too rigidly to the formation just let them go all the time.



    I've exploited these problems myself, playing an AMC in a 4-1-2-1-2 formation. The AI never once seemed to realise just how much room my AMC got and as a result he had a great season, despite not having the greatest finishing or creativity.



    I've also been destroyed in a similar manner by a 4-3-2-1 formation. Hull, despite their being a lot of better sides reached the play-offs on my Leicester game and absolutely destroyed me with their lone striker and AMCs. If they played 4-4-2 they'd have never got near the play-offs, but they got there and because their formation was match engine friendly almost won them.



    Another problem is the amount of points scored by teams. This problem has frustrated me the most in FM2008. Generally the required points to win a division on FM is 15-20 points fewer than in real life, except it seems when a human player is chasing the title or promotion.



    I am not suggesting the AI cheats, as I do not believe that, but the last 2 seasons on FM2008 I've scored 90 and 92 points respectively and have finished 3rd on both occasions and lost the play-offs. I checked the other leagues and the champions in each had no more than 80 points. I checked 16 real life tables of 24 team divisions, and the most points any team finishing 3rd got was 85. Every team getting 90 points or above was promoted, generally by atleast 10 points, yet I failed 2 seasons running.



    I remember a topic on FM2007 about a similar thing, which was dismissed by most, but I believe that on average the top teams score more points when there's a human team near the top.

  86. #86
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    I can acept bugs in ME due to it's complexity, somehow but I can't accept new facegen technology instead of new training or tactics system.


    Great point.

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    Good point for Sir Liam about the points for winning.. I never really have noticed that, although I must admit that I also get a feeling that the "scene" changes when a human team gets involved. Either it's in the top, bottom or just a regular match.

    I also watched the Liverpool - Luton game on tuesday where Liverpool had 22 chances/SoG and Luton 0. In that match the commentaries where telling us how great an amount this was, and that it was an inredible amount.. Well this was a Premier League teams against a League 1. Still, in almost every Premier League game in FM I have between 20-30 shots/chances. It's just an example of how unrealistic this thing is, and I really really hope they fix it for the patch, without messing up the amount of goals or other things.

  88. #88
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    tactical aspect is big problem right now, positionig especially. MCs are creating huge gaps. their defensive awereness would probablly fix many problems about too many chances. I hope SI are awere of that.

  89. #89
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    To be honest it's almost like i want them to cut the whole graphic display. Of course it will be a huge drawback, but at least you won't be bothered to see how obviously things are not working. With only commentary matchflow would be better, and maybe they even manage to make a decent match engine. The way it is now it is almost completely useless, as you never know wether to trust it or not.

  90. #90
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    I agree with nearly everything posted here....personally I never watch the games and rely only on the commentary as I feel it is far too complex for a computer game to try and re-create real football and can only ever lead to problems admittedly I may be missing out on a huge part of the game but I prefered it that way when I played on the old amiga and still do now....in every other version of this series I have never had a problem managing a team and getting beat a lot and not winning anything because in previous versions I have always been able to pin point what it is I am doing wrong and work towards rectifying it,but this version the tactics just seem to be guesswork e.g I have an Arsenal team and I use BIG D tactics and we are unstoppable however I have attempted to implement some tactical variations from a certain point in my saved game and the results fluctuate terribly.Using original tactic and we are unbeatable however if I get Fabregas to push a bit further forward even though his instructions remain the same sudeenly we leak goals all over and get turned over by the likes of Watford and Hull and suddenly are mediocre mid table team.....how can that be,the problem is when you are going horrendously wrong in your tactics there is nothing to indicate where you are going wrong and any changes you make could be making it worse for all you know.we need something that can point you in the right direction something like your ass man having an indicator bar or something as to how suitable your tactics are to the players in your squad......I could go on but I dont want a ridiculously long post that would put people off reading it but I think SI need to seriously go back to basics as at the moment the real fun has gone from the game,they need to go and look at why we all loved Championship Manager in the first place and why a huge number of us are dis-illusioned with it now....I get no satisfaction from making a tactics change and coming from 1-0 down to win 2-1 because usually I have no idea what I done

  91. #91
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    Nice to see this topic has not been sullied into a the debacle it usually does.

    I completeley agree with what has been said here, and as many other posters have said (in relation to s/g ratio) it isn't that I'm not scoring enough, I'm creating too much. I would be much happier to see my team on average create around 10 chances a match give or take, say roughly half on target half off, and win maybe by one or two. But if I'm creating 30+ chances a game, and I have world class finishers then why do I either only win 1 or 2-0 or get beat 1-0 by a side who have converted their only chance?

    The amount on 1v1's is ludicrous, How many times in real life would Henry, or Drogba, or Eto'o fluff 1 on 1's? If I get a 1 on 1 (which shouldn't be as often as I do) then surely my striker with 18 finishing, 17 composure, and 20 technique should be favorite against a keeper of any ability.

    I love FM I really do, I have been playing for 10 years or so now and have enjoyed every aspect, from the joy of winning my first title, to the sore hands when you hit the wall in frustration.

    But 8.0.1 is getting silly and I am enjoying it less and less, and as we are so often reminded that this is only a game, then my enjoyment should be paramount.

    Excellent thread this I hope it gets a response.

  92. #92
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    What I wish most of all is that SI would stop making this a franchise type game that comes out every year like an EA Sports title and just concentrate on actually making a game and then releasing it when it's actually ready.

    I accept that there is always going to be bugs in a game so complex as this and that's fine now that a new game is out every year, I am struggling to remember the last time I played a game that felt like it was complete. Sure they get patched, but there have always been big problems remaining and by the time I'm expecting a new patch to fix that, I know the guys have abandoned it in favour of the following years version. Like many people have already said, SI really need to actually fix the game they already have before they think about putting in new features. In all honesty the new features the last few years have been rather underwhelming anyway. They need to get back to basics, sort out the tactics so that the game feels more 'pick up and play' like it was in the CM days where I could just make a tactic and win 8/10 games with a good team without needing to be a tactial genius. It's not fun to have to tweak tactics before every match. Especially when nobody knows what their tweaking is even doing.

  93. #93
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    Great post, you've basicly summed up everthing i found frustrating with this new encarnation of what used to be the most addictive game ever. I love the part about the tactics, its spot on. FM08 did not last a month on my PC and i doubt the disc will see another trip out of the box. I have reverted back to FM07 and i doubt if i will bother purchasing FM09 unless when it comes out their is a hell a lot of people raving about it on these forums.

    For me SI have been trying to hard since FM06.
    Guys if it ain't broke don't fix it.

  94. #94
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    Absolutey agree with the post.

    I'm currently playing a game as Farsley Celtic and my squad is head and shoulders above any other team in League 2 (won promotion from BSP in year 1)

    I'm top of the league but still I'm really not enjoying the game as much as I should be and it's down to several factors.

    In my 20 or so games played so far this season I have had 20+ shots on goal in 90% of the games compared to 5 or 6 from my opponants yet I've still lost and drawn far too many games than should be reasonable - I have a striking partnership of Fabian Brandy & Raffaelle De Vita which as any FM player should now is rather a formidable attack in League 2 !!

    Anyway I intend to analyse all the shots on target ratios etc etc at the end of the season and post my findings - wouldn't normally bother with such pedantry but I've just been signed off work for 3 months after suffering a rather sudden and unexpected brain haemorrage (not blaming it on SI by the way) and I'm gonna be bored out of my mind LOL.

    I'm also going to count the amount of times the ball bounces off my rubber covered teflon gloved (with a handling stat of 18) goalkeeper straight into the path of my opponant.

    Then I shall count the amount of long shots taken by my team alhough each and every player is set to not take them and also they have creative freedom set to 0.

    Finally I shall take note of the amount of times an opponant with a Long Shot stat of less than 10 scores an absolute screamer.

    I'm in agreement with SI because I do think this is the best game from the series, well potentially at least and I can honesly say I've not stopped playing it but I'm not going to looking forward to the next installment with as much enthusiasm unless SI can promise that they are taking their long and loyal customers a little more seriously than their profits next time around.

    Anyway I better get back to good old Farsley Celtic and another night of frustration :-)

    P.S - Just as the chap a few posts up sorry about the long post.

  95. #95
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    quote:
    Originally posted by vagaswil:


    For me SI have been trying to hard since FM06.
    Guys if it ain't broke don't fix it.


    Hardly.

    It is broken in many areas where long term issues have been ignored (Eg transfer market, tactical interface, media/player interaction), and on top of that innovative features are very thin on the ground.

    This series is stuck in a rut.

  96. #96
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    Great post and I too am in agreement. We all find these games frustrating at times, especially those that have played since the real old days of Italia Manager or CM2.

    Sure, you can't compare the games now to the oldies, which always seemed fun rather than simulations. Todays versions are superb, very detailed and realistic. My frustration comes with SI itself, and as 'George Graham' said above the fact they are stuck in a rut.

    Meangingless features continue to be included when all we want is great CORE features; a good transfer system, detailed finances, tactics and a realistic but fun match engine. I wish they would build the game around the fundamentals again, and bring back the level of enjoyment for me of the CM 01/02 days.

    I also wish SI would acknowledge issues with greater honesty, and stop rushing a game for yearly October time releases yet is a difficult and frustrating playing experience until the inevitable second patch in Feb.

    Personally it's grown a little old for me now, and I prefer gaming that relaxes me, not agitates me. For FM09 I won't be buying until its fully patched and pending forum feedback.

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    I did find FM07 fun, I'd probably put it in the top three CM/FM games ever in fact.

    The growing issue I have is that having tried three or four smaller leagues after flawed games in Ireland and Spain I've just found another fatal bug (in Malaysia this time). I really have no idea how this game was released.

    As Phil930 and others have noted playing FM is no longer entertaining, it just grinds. Another thing I miss are the days when you could get through a seaosn in five hours. A lot of us don't have time to contribute 48 hours of real life play per season as we get older.

  98. #98
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    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    Hardly.

    It is broken in many areas where long term issues have been ignored (Eg transfer market, tactical interface, media/player interaction), and on top of that innovative features are very thin on the ground.

    This series is stuck in a rut.


    It really makes you ask where all the development time is going.? Has SI spread themselves too thin with all the different versions they do at the cost of truly developing the series? Perhaps alot of work is going on in the background but us as users only see the front end, and despite the fact the default skin keeps getting perfected more and more, not much seems to change.

    Other games that have sequels go through major design changes each release, granted they have longer development schedules, but with FM major changes seem to be non-existant even if you skip a release.

    I guess as fans we get frustrated because we enjoy the game but want more from SI and feel comfortable that they are committed to progressing the series and willing to take risks. Minor changes are good and all but it is the innovative, major changes that drive interest.

  99. #99
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Spagbol:
    I did find FM07 fun, I'd probably put it in the top three CM/FM games ever in fact.

    The growing issue I have is that having tried three or four smaller leagues after flawed games in Ireland and Spain I've just found another fatal bug (in Malaysia this time). I really have no idea how this game was released.

    As Phil930 and others have noted playing FM is no longer entertaining, it just grinds. Another thing I miss are the days when you could get through a seaosn in five hours. A lot of us don't have time to contribute 48 hours of real life play per season as we get older.


    Completely agree; I'm one of those players who loves to progress through a season in one day. Personally, the aspects of the game I enjoy are winning games and signing players and accruing both as quickly as possible.

    Other things like this annoy me when the AI play one another, and I quote:

    "A close fought game at Anfield ended in a one sided result as Liverpool beat Arsenal 6-0".

    Not so close then, eh?

  100. #100
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    quote:
    Completely agree; I'm one of those players who loves to progress through a season in one day. Personally, the aspects of the game I enjoy are winning games and signing players and accruing both as quickly as possible.


    It's funny, after all the changes and additions that people are sitting in concordance that the little things really haven't added anything except more bugs and making the game more work like and we all want a more simple, fun, addictive form of FM we can pick up and play.

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