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Thread: An age old debate! Personal lives in FM :O

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    Default An age old debate! Personal lives in FM :O

    For years now, each new FM has been subjected to many threads/arguments about whether SI should include a so called "personal life" in the build up to release. I have always been against it until FM11.

    I always thought that earning a contract and winning trophies was more rewarding than any virtual sports car. However, in the wake of FM12, I have to say I would be interested to see some things implemented in this area. I'm not talkin houses, cars, boats etc. I mean more like building your qualifications and skills. Paying for courses to learn certain skills that can improve areas such as your scouting ability, your coaching effectiveness, communication with staff and players, tactical awareness, and best of all I think would be negotiation skills.

    Imagine being able to work your way up through the ranks, starting as a level 2 coach that a low league chairman has taken a punt on hiring, only for you to turn out to be the find of the century as you build up your coaching badges aiming towards your pro license and leading the team to greatness.

    It's the sort of thing I would love to see, and like I said, I know this topic ruffles a few feathers, but it would be great to see a football manager game that pays a little more attention to the 'manager' part, rather than all about the 'football' part.

    Before the rants begin, there could be an option in 'preferences' to turn this feature off for those who wanted to stick to just the football.

    I enjoy the game as it is, and I think that it has come on a long way. There are no real major fixes requoted so a new feature such as this may bring something different.

    Just an idea

    Opent to criticism, but keep it fair it's only an opinion at the end of the day.

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    I'd not diasgree.

    There is only so far, with tweaks, the current set up can go. It has to get more in-depth, and OP aside; press/player/staff interactions would be a good start imvho.

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    I agree something should be done in this area and I think your idea would (when worked out correctly) definitely have my consent.

    Though as you say, please please please SI... Don't turn FM into a FIFA Manager rip-off, I don't want houses and such useless crap.

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    In a perfect world, I'd like to see more RPG elements, but given the compressed development and design schedules, it would probably just be screwed up and unbalanced.

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    I already consider myself very good at things like scouting and tactical awareness, so I wouldn't need training on these items. Also not sure about coaching, because we don't actually do any of the coaching in-game.

    Also disagree that the game needs to be more in-depth. I think it's already very in-depth, and adding lots of little things like this will just make the game take longer. While they may seem like a good idea to some, they will just get very repetitive and become a chore like press conferences.

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    I'd like to see this actually.

    The ability to work your way up and go from a basement league manager to a Premiership world beater would be awesome.

    On a side note: I honestly believe that journalists need attributes and the relationships need to be improved.

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    I can see what u mean mate, especially in that it would possibly seem like a chore afte a while, but if it was an optional extra it would mean u could bypass it if you don't like it. You may consider yourself a good scout, and im sure you likely are, but what if the players' attributes reflected your scouting skill, so they were more relative to you abilities? I.e, u at a good manager in the championship, on a good wage an with high scouting qualifications. The attributes of potential new signings (especially youth/young players) are very accurate and also the potential of this player is revealed with accuracy too. Whereas a manager of low scouting knowledge who may for example be a stronger negotiator, does not see the same attributes due to not having the qualifications to recognise and assess ability and potential, but if deciding to go for that player, has the know how on how to persuade a player to join the club and do so more cheaply.

    This was just one of many ideas in this area I have thought of, partially inspired by FML, but I'm not sure if/how this could be implemented. If it was there would need to be a way to ensure Scouts are not rendered obsolete.

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    This could be a good idea, e.g. you'd get a degree during the off season and then you would be more effective in the match preparation training, like defensive set pieces or something like that.

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    Scarykarl- could you please be careful not to slip into text speak (e.g. "u" instead of "you")? Some of our users don't speak English as their first language, and it can be tricky for them to read something like that.

    Now on topic- it's not a bad idea, though the title is a bit misleading. To be blunt... what's "fun" about it? You already can already work your way up from being a lowly-rated manager to becoming the new Mourinho. What would a bar saying "coaching course 50% complete" add to that?

    I don't believe Alex Ferguson has a coaching qualification. He certainly doesn't have a Pro License. Why would him obtaining a qualification in "negotiating" make him better at working out transfer fees?

    Optional extras of this complexity aren't done- this is far more complex than attribute masking, for example. It just creates more scope for bugs, as you essentially need two sets of code, one with "coaches doing qualifications", and one without. If a new feature was introduced which affected managerial skills, or the visibility of attributes, or some such, then both sets of code would need to have the new feature coded in for them, which would take twice as long.

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    I really like the idea and think it would add a lot to the game if done right.

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    I like this idea as managers in real life have to earn badges to manage at a certain level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarykarl View Post
    ...I mean more like building your qualifications and skills. Paying for courses to learn certain skills that can improve areas such as your scouting ability, your coaching effectiveness, communication with staff and players, tactical awareness, and best of all I think would be negotiation skills.

    Imagine being able to work your way up through the ranks, starting as a level 2 coach that a low league chairman has taken a punt on hiring, only for you to turn out to be the find of the century as you build up your coaching badges aiming towards your pro license and leading the team to greatness.
    I must agree that this idea would be worthwhile following up upon. It may need tweaking and fixing after its initial implementation, just like anything else.

    What you speak about though is what I think - the cars, the houses and the diamond rings are not what matters, but the ability to control your skills base I think does. At current, we have the very basics of this in a sense, or at least the basics of what this could be.

    When starting a new game, we can choose to be an ex-international footballer or a sunday league player. Essentially, another option along side this or built in as a part of this would be to decide your level of initial qualifications. So for those who want to play in the premier league or how they always have, they can select the "full qualifications" option, whilst those who seek something more challenging and 'personal', they can select the "basic qualifications" option, which pits the player with the bare minimum qualifications with the bare minimum training and knowledge. He/She can then pursue a career in the lower leagues, but has no chance what so ever to manage internationally or in the Premier league due to them being both underqualified and clubs deeming their knowledge and experience not good enough.

    They can then pursue a greater career by completing further qualifications, taking coaching courses to develop higher coaching stats that are effective in training (the higher the knowledge and training, the better coach you are, simples). Taking communication courses to develop your communication skills with players, enabling you to perhaps have more options when speaking to a player or your less likely to upset them. Similarly this can be applied for negotiation skills (easier to negotiate with players wages) and scouting (ie. shows less hidden player stats) etc, allowing your manager to fine tune his skill sets to get the best out of his players not just through change of tactics and repetitive talks, but by building the skills base.

    I understand you will have built your skill base up either quickly or eventually - this may require topping up or whatever and may become tedious and just another button to press to ensure that your game continues strongly and can become just another part of the game, like confrences, that people get annoyed.
    Last edited by DeadPanda; 23-07-2011 at 02:08.

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    Nope sorry, I think such suggestions as being a coach first would turn the series into a farce, the game isn't Football Coach after all and I feel too much emphasis is placed on the manager's involvement in coaching in the game as it is.

    This is also the exact sort of 'realistic new feature' that has divided fan opinion about the game in recent incarnations, with more now going back to the days when FM was fun, quick and not bogged down by pointless and/or poorly-implemented new features.

    So no, manager personal lives should never enter the game world in my opinion, this is a game about managing a football club and that I think is what fundamentally matters.
    Planning where to go on holiday, what car to buy or how and when to study for my next coaching badge doesn't enter in to that description of the game and I'm happy it stays that way.
    Last edited by MorrisseyMuse; 23-07-2011 at 02:48.

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    I like it, however it would have to be for certain types of pre-decided reputations. For the low starting reps, then it would be good to have these coaching qualifications etc. Then automatic should have this as a factor, but not a heavy influencing thing. Then for high reps there isnt much point as they would aleady have all of their courses done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCIAG View Post
    Scarykarl- could you please be careful not to slip into text speak (e.g. "u" instead of "you")? Some of our users don't speak English as their first language, and it can be tricky for them to read something like that.

    Now on topic- it's not a bad idea, though the title is a bit misleading. To be blunt... what's "fun" about it? You already can already work your way up from being a lowly-rated manager to becoming the new Mourinho. What would a bar saying "coaching course 50% complete" add to that?

    I don't believe Alex Ferguson has a coaching qualification. He certainly doesn't have a Pro License. Why would him obtaining a qualification in "negotiating" make him better at working out transfer fees?

    Optional extras of this complexity aren't done- this is far more complex than attribute masking, for example. It just creates more scope for bugs, as you essentially need two sets of code, one with "coaches doing qualifications", and one without. If a new feature was introduced which affected managerial skills, or the visibility of attributes, or some such, then both sets of code would need to have the new feature coded in for them, which would take twice as long.
    Im agreeing with this. i like it the way it is where you can build up from sunday league to become Fergie or Mourinhio.

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    I don't think paying for courses in the game to improve your coaching skills would add something to the game. You can buy all the courses you want in the game but being terrible at managing a team in real life or vice versa, so this qualifications would be pointless in my opinion.

    With regards to chairmans of better teams contracting you based on the courses you attend, there is already the reputation system in the game that as the reputation improves attracts better teams as you start having good results with your managing, so I think the game is fine as it is now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munich 1860 View Post
    I don't think paying for courses in the game to improve your coaching skills would add something to the game. You can buy all the courses you want in the game but being terrible at managing a team in real life or vice versa, so this qualifications would be pointless in my opinion.

    With regards to chairmans of better teams contracting you based on the courses you attend, there is already the reputation system in the game that as the reputation improves attracts better teams as you start having good results with your managing, so I think the game is fine as it is now.
    Ok, that's a fair point.

    What about to add on to the add on (ha ) by saying that the coaching courses aren't just a "progress bar", but are infact an actual coaching course, where the dev's create tutorials on certain aspects of the game to make both it, and the user better.

    Such as:
    Coaching Course: What areas to focus on when training a player in a certain position, or what individual training suits certain player types/positions.
    Scouting Course: How to effectivly use your scouts in assignments, or what stats to look for in certain positions.
    Communication Course: To develop your communication skills with players, enabling you to perhaps have more options when speaking to a player or making you less likely to upset them. (Credit: Dead Panda)
    + Many, many more.

    They could act like tutorials for a new user to the game who wants to learn, and for those who have played the game for many years but still may have more to learn. Obviously it would be in the same setup of paying for it with money earned, so as you progress in your career you would be able to afford(or unlock) more tutorials to make you a better manager in the longer run.
    All in all, there are so many ways it could be done - this is just one of them which would tackle your point about "despite them having the qualifications they are still bad managers" point.

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    This would work well if it could be put into the game in the right way.

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    I think that it would be a little risky.

    I mean, if SI did it wrong it could ruin the game completely. If they did it right though-well, it'd be awesome.

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    I like to think that as you play the game you are getting better, so you don't need those numbers to tell you that you're good at this, or that - you just are. This means the game environment doesn't change, but you do.

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    as long as you didnt limit a new manager being able to do anything a more experienced manager could do then maybe it could work, but as soon as you start having the ability to unlock new converstations or training schedules you would start completely changing the format of the game. It would be terrible to go through a 25 season game having unlocked everything only to start a new one with limited options.
    The other thing is you dont need the game to tell you what you are good or bad at, you should know, a lot of people are obsesed with the virtual human in the game, where as they should be focused on learning themselves. All the manager profile is, is a portal for the human to be part of the game, nothing more.
    Last edited by milnerpoint; 23-07-2011 at 13:46.

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    @SCIAG. Sir Alex Ferguson does have his Pro License. It is a required qualification to manage in the premier league. Glen Roeder can confirm this as he had to appeal to the FA a few years ago to manage Newcastle (I think it was Newcastle anyway) but he was still midway through his pro license. Eventually they agreed to let him stay because he would have completed it before the end of the season.

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    not exactly, SAF has a coaching diploma, the Pro License was only enforced in 2003 by the prem league, Fergie had been Man U manager long before that, because of his coaching diploma he does not need a Pro License.
    The other thing to note is no one has EVER failed the Pro License course, so its not a very difficult thing to achieve.

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    This idea shall go under the file of "over-complicating things" as far as I'm concerned.

    Although I guess if I could turn it off completely and it didn't slow my game, I don't really give a damn that you'd able to collect coach diplomas/licenses. I just don't see the point of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    not exactly, SAF has a coaching diploma, the Pro License was only enforced in 2003 by the prem league, Fergie had been Man U manager long before that, because of his coaching diploma he does not need a Pro License.
    The other thing to note is no one has EVER failed the Pro License course, so its not a very difficult thing to achieve.
    Thought Southgate did twice, or was that one of the UEFA badges.

    And I don't like the idea in the first place:
    1) It is going to limit choices at the start, and influence how your team plays based on how much of your virtual money you spend and not on how much talent you have at the game (or how hard you work at it, or how much you read up on it). It'll strait-jacket your options too much.
    2) It introduces experience grinding into the game. Now I like RPGs a lot (especially Pokemon), and play them too, but the most frustrating part is getting to a stage where you're fighting a big bad and the only options are a) going around for five hours beating up the small boys for XP until you get to the required level, or b) using the cheesy exploit. I hate b) but a) is almost as bad. With your idea I can almost guarantee you that the best option would be to either start with a top reputation or alternatively gimp your season, every season until you've most (or even all) the badges, before even trying to start up the ladder. In a game as long-term and complex as this one that is an extra level of time that would be better spent elsewhere.
    3) Making it optional may break the game. Even with the current options some of them do not work properly. For example set up a game with real players off, pick a BSP team, and make a search where the asking price is £0. You'll find lots of players there that you shouldn't be able to even touch (I'm talking Championship or higher level 16yo's for free!) that you will pick up. A couple of friends started one with AFC Wimbledon and packed at least half our team with players of that level at no cost (except for wages). It slightly broke the first few seasons.
    4) The two systems may (IMO will probably) be unable to work together. The most recent example would be Civ 5 where they tried to graft a tactical level battle simulator (going for a Panzer General style of game actually) onto a game that worked at the strategic level as a long-term economic builder. That game was broken (bad rules choices made it worse) from the start and is fundamentally still broken, and unless you like either no challenge (at the lower levels) or a boring grindy war-fest with massive exploits (at the highest two levels) it is unplayable.
    Last edited by Brian Shanahan; 23-07-2011 at 19:28.

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    Why would the chairman that took a punt care about the fact that you're earning badges whilst leading his side to glory? All he cares about are the results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarykarl View Post
    @SCIAG. Sir Alex Ferguson does have his Pro License. It is a required qualification to manage in the premier league. Glen Roeder can confirm this as he had to appeal to the FA a few years ago to manage Newcastle (I think it was Newcastle anyway) but he was still midway through his pro license. Eventually they agreed to let him stay because he would have completed it before the end of the season.
    Quote Originally Posted by milnerpoint View Post
    not exactly, SAF has a coaching diploma, the Pro License was only enforced in 2003 by the prem league, Fergie had been Man U manager long before that
    Precisely. Ferguson (and, I believe, Wenger) had been managing top clubs for a long time before there was a need to have a Pro License, so it would have been silly if the PL had said "sorry, you've won the league a few times but you don't have this qualification, so you're clearly not good enough". They were given exemptions (though I think Wenger might have a Pro License anyway).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarykarl View Post
    For years now, each new FM has been subjected to many threads/arguments about whether SI should include a so called "personal life" in the build up to release. I have always been against it until FM11.
    Then don't start a new thread. This has been debated to death.

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    ^Ditto^ RIP

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCIAG View Post
    Precisely. Ferguson (and, I believe, Wenger) had been managing top clubs for a long time before there was a need to have a Pro License, so it would have been silly if the PL had said "sorry, you've won the league a few times but you don't have this qualification, so you're clearly not good enough". They were given exemptions (though I think Wenger might have a Pro License anyway).
    Yup your correct, on both accounts, wenger took the pro license before he came to england, it was complusery in other countries before it was in england, and SAF actually teaches part of the pro license without having one. A pro license is now required if you want to become a manager in the EPL but when they EPL started to enforce it they did not stop any managers who were employed before the rules came into place from working, i dont think Harry Redknapp, Kevin Keegan, Roy Hodgson or even people like Walter Smith will have done the course either, again they do not need to they were qualified before the rule came into place.

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    I think the ability to tune where your coaching attributes should go isn't a bad one (i.e. "I want to become an attacking coach rather than a jack-of-all-trades"). Languages too. That way, you can "customise" what sort of manager you are over time.

    Optional? Certainly, just like advanced tactics - you'll still be a solid manager without it, but more of a jack-of-all-trades.

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    A slight RPG element or just more detail to the managers profile would be a welcome idea. They have added more this FM, but more would make it feel like you are the actual manager.
    Not too sure about courses and the like, whether implementing that would be worthwhile. Learning a new language without managing a club/national team would help though.

    I like the new Relationships panel in this years FM. But I still would like Favoured Personnel to be added to the personal page. Managers and players you praise constantly over a period of time get added, along with long term servants to the club, like assistant manager, coach, scouts so forth. By that I mean, if a coach has been at the club for longer than 5 years and has you on their favoured personnel list and/or you leave a club and take them with you.
    This is purely cosmetic but would just add something extra to the existing managers page. Obviously far easier to only add players and managers though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryknow View Post
    A slight RPG element or just more detail to the managers profile would be a welcome idea. They have added more this FM, but more would make it feel like you are the actual manager.
    Not too sure about courses and the like, whether implementing that would be worthwhile. Learning a new language without managing a club/national team would help though.

    I like the new Relationships panel in this years FM. But I still would like Favoured Personnel to be added to the personal page. Managers and players you praise constantly over a period of time get added, along with long term servants to the club, like assistant manager, coach, scouts so forth. By that I mean, if a coach has been at the club for longer than 5 years and has you on their favoured personnel list and/or you leave a club and take them with you.
    This is purely cosmetic but would just add something extra to the existing managers page. Obviously far easier to only add players and managers though.
    I would much rather see things like this added than the courses idea. I'd like to see more involvement with manager attributes, but not through purchasing courses as has been suggested. Rather, I'd like to see my attributes reflect how much of an attacking manager I am, whether I focus on youth or experience, some of the attributes that AI managers have but are hidden from us. And favoured personnel is a must

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    I'd really not want to see any virtual elements which don't add to the overall expirience of being a football manager, such as cars and houses, as seen in Fifa Manager, however i would like to see perhaps the odd few elements in this area added which would improve you as a Football Manager, for example learning languages without being in the country (perhaps you'd learn slower), and taking Holidays to areas where you can build up your scouting knowledge, simple elements which are add ons rather than musts

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