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Thread: 2009 idea - Promotion/relegation in unplayable leagues

  1. #1
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    This idea is one I feel needs implementing. No matter what country you are playing in, the only teams that can be promoted into playable leagues are the ones who play in the unplayable leagues that immediately feed into it, or those teams that have been relegated out of a playable league while playing the game. This then gives the same pool of teams (66 in England's case) that can be promoted, and no others.

    Why shouldn't the likes of FC United, Sheffield, Kidsgrove Athletic to name just three be able to be promoted to a playable league further down the line?

    It's not down to research. As soon as you press continue for the first time, the game world deviates from the real world. And as it would be at least two years since the start of the game before any of these teams can appear in a playable league, having a 'good number' of players at the start isn't a factor, as the AI manager will have been signing and selling in this time.

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    This idea is one I feel needs implementing. No matter what country you are playing in, the only teams that can be promoted into playable leagues are the ones who play in the unplayable leagues that immediately feed into it, or those teams that have been relegated out of a playable league while playing the game. This then gives the same pool of teams (66 in England's case) that can be promoted, and no others.

    Why shouldn't the likes of FC United, Sheffield, Kidsgrove Athletic to name just three be able to be promoted to a playable league further down the line?

    It's not down to research. As soon as you press continue for the first time, the game world deviates from the real world. And as it would be at least two years since the start of the game before any of these teams can appear in a playable league, having a 'good number' of players at the start isn't a factor, as the AI manager will have been signing and selling in this time.

  3. #3
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    But where does it stop?
    I think 66 teams is plenty enough.

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    Agreed with Nobby.

    I'd add to what he said but he phrased it better than I ever could.

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    Hmmmm. An interesting idea. I think it would probably take a great deal of programming to achieve, so not sure it's worth it. But if the game could keep track (in the background of course) of promotions and relegations in the support leagues, it could be interesting. For example, if I edited the database to give AFC Wimbledon a lot of money and a reasonable reputation, it'd be nice to see them promoted in a few years. That said, it's not the most pressing concerns, and 66 teams is probably more than enough.

    If it's doable, then go for it. Otherwise, I'm not too bothered. Interesting idea though.

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    66 teams really isn't enough when you consider that a total of six teams will be promoted every year (three to the bsn, three to the bss). plus there's a vast database of sides who currently serve little purpose in the game other than to lose in the fa cup qualifying rounds, so making use of them by ensuring that there's a chance of them making it into the playable leagues would be nice

    i doubt it would take a great deal of programming to achieve - all it would take is expanding the system that currently governs who's promoted from non-playable to playable leagues to include promotion/relegation between non-playable leagues, as well as maybe adding and subtracting reputation at random from unplayable clubs to simulate the ebb and flow of the lower leagues

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    It should really be doable, seeing the fact that the game does simulate (bits) of unplayable leagues. I don't know how it's done exactly, but as an international manager I can see the number of matches a player played, a player who is from my international team and a club outside the playable leagues.

    Next to that, it's just a great idea

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    Is there anyway at all, using the editor perhaps, to put one of the ridiculously small English non-league teams into that pool of 66 teams to give them a chance of getting promoted into the football league? Southend Manor for example.....

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    It doens't seem right when you consider that the Northern Irish teams a majority are on it.

    My local team Chimney Corner are on there and they seriously have a corrugated iron hut to save the fans from the rain and when I say fans I mean a couple of old fellas. It even has teams that play on the local park across from me (without a ref) and are well known booze hounds

    Love the chance to manage FC United though.

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    I feel that any team that is in the game and is lower than the current playable leagues in any particular country should at least have the chance to be promoted. This game is about realism, I don't see why this shouldn't be an option, and I don't foresee it to be hard to implement in the game.

    Fair enough that in leagues like Scotland where there is no promotion/relegation from the 3rd division as that is the same as in real life so that's fine. (Although I believe that there is a rule where if you finish bottom of the 3rd division 3 times in a row then you would be replaced by a highland league team; but I'm not aware if this is in the game or if it is actually a rule in real life, it's just what I've heard.)

    Feel free to comment.

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    I think if a team were to be promoted to a league just below a playable one, it wouldn't be very likely that it would get promoted (although TBH AFC Hornchurch are doing rather well). I just have to agree with SWaRFeGa; where does it stop?

    If you want to manage a never-manageable team, you can swap teams around using the editor.

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    I dont think the OP was asking for a simulation of the Northern League Division 3 in game- i think what he means is that all clubs in the game (say for England for example) be given a chance to promoted into a playable league, rather than simply those in the division directly underneath the lowest playable division.

    This would be especially useful if u were only running the EPL-50 years of game time for example would only see teams in the Championship ever making it to the top flight.

    In the case of teams below Conf Nth/Sth, this might be accounted for by introducing a "minimum seasons before promotion to lowest playable division" value, which as the name suggests is the number a seasons a side would take, if it were promoted every season, to reach the lowest playable division (ie for 'Southend Manor' it might be seven, if its seven divisions below the lowest playable division). This value, coupled with the clubs reputation, could give every team the opportunity to appear in a playable league, however remote that may be.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by SWaRFeGa:
    But where does it stop?
    I think 66 teams is plenty enough.


    So in 2050 it's going to be the exact same 226 teams playing in the top eight tiers of English football.

    Possible, but very unlikely.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by GillsMan:
    For example, if I edited the database to give AFC Wimbledon a lot of money and a reasonable reputation, it'd be nice to see them promoted in a few years. That said, it's not the most pressing concerns, and 66 teams is probably more than enough.


    Bad example, AFC Wimbledon are one of those 66.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Kill Rock Stars:
    plus there's a vast database of sides who currently serve little purpose in the game other than to lose in the fa cup qualifying rounds


    That's a whole different issue, search for my 'Greys Athletic' thread in LLM.

  16. #16
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    quote:
    Originally posted by jsufc88:
    Is there anyway at all, using the editor perhaps, to put one of the ridiculously small English non-league teams into that pool of 66 teams to give them a chance of getting promoted into the football league? Southend Manor for example.....


    Maybe for you, but not for me. It goes completely against my way of playing.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by aaberdeenn:
    Fair enough that in leagues like Scotland where there is no promotion/relegation from the 3rd division as that is the same as in real life so that's fine. (Although I believe that there is a rule where if you finish bottom of the 3rd division 3 times in a row then you would be replaced by a highland league team; but I'm not aware if this is in the game or if it is actually a rule in real life, it's just what I've heard.)

    Feel free to comment.


    This rule does exist in real life, implemented for the start of last season. If a team comes bottom three consecutive seasons, their league place is then up for a vote. Non league teams can apply for it, and the team in question can reapply for their membership.
    Who votes I have no idea.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by sthptngomad76:
    I dont think the OP was asking for a simulation of the Northern League Division 3 in game- i think what he means is that all clubs in the game (say for England for example) be given a chance to promoted into a playable league...


    Exactly what I meant.

    I'm not asking for the leagues to exist in the game per se, but for teams to be promoted and relegated between them. A hidden league for want of a better term, with teams promoted and relegated based on factors - such as reputation and quality of their squad - rather than playing fixtures as that would use too many resources.

    The leagues even exist in the database... how else in a news item would I have been told I would be playing Kidsgrove Athletic of the Northern League First Division South in an F.A. Cup Qualifying Round?

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    Perhaps the solution for each edition of FM is for the researchers to quickly check which teams outside the 66 are "likely" to make the playable leagues and thus code accoringly for these teams.

    For example, there are clubs at non-league level who would drop a division or two for a couple of seasons, such as Fisher Athletic in real life. They have since "risen" to a level that's playable in the game.

    Obviously teams such as FC United, considering the following, reputation and finances, are potentially "likely" to get to at least the BSN.

    As the game is released yearly, there really would'nt need to be many teams coded "additionally". This could then be reviewer prior to each release.

  20. #20
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    quote:
    Originally posted by heathxxx:
    Perhaps the solution for each edition of FM is for the researchers to quickly check which teams outside the 66 are "likely" to make the playable leagues and thus code accoringly for these teams.

    For example, there are clubs at non-league level who would drop a division or two for a couple of seasons, such as Fisher Athletic in real life. They have since "risen" to a level that's playable in the game.

    Obviously teams such as FC United, considering the following, reputation and finances, are potentially "likely" to get to at least the BSN.

    As the game is released yearly, there really would'nt need to be many teams coded "additionally". This could then be reviewer prior to each release.


    Well, I came in to make a point, but heathxxx has made it and in a very concise manner.

    WHS, then

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    I think this is a must.

    The problem would probably be how this is worked out.

    At the moment it is worked out by reputation. The reputation of the clubs directly below Conference South is as follows.

    quote:
    Isthmian Premier

    AFC Hornchurch 900
    AFC Wimbledon 1350
    Ashford Town (Middx) 650
    Billericay Town 1100
    Boreham Wood 950
    Carshalton Athletic 900
    Chelmsford City 1250
    East Thurrock United 600
    Folkestone Invicta 700
    Harlow Town 600
    Harrow Borough 750
    Hastings United 600
    Hendon 900
    Heybridge Swifts 850
    Horsham 800
    Leyton 700
    Maidstone United 800
    Margate 1100
    Ramsgate 850
    Staines Town 800
    Tonbridge Angels 850
    Wealdstone 700



    Northern Premier

    Ashton United 750
    Buxton 850
    Eastwood Town 850
    Fleetwood Town 1000
    Frickley Athletic 850
    Gateshead 1200
    Guiseley 1200
    Hednesford Town 1300
    Ilkeston Town 1050
    Kendal Town 900
    Leek Town 900
    Lincoln United 850
    Marine 1250
    Matlock Town 1150
    North Ferriby United 950
    Ossett Town 900
    Prescot Cables 1000
    Stamford 1000
    Whitby Town 1100
    Witton Albion 1250
    Worksop Town 1200



    Southern Premier

    Banbury United 800
    Bashley 600
    Bedford Town 1000
    Brackley Town 400
    Bromsgrove Rovers 700
    Cheshunt 600
    Chippenham Town 900
    Cirencester Town 750
    Clevedon Town 750
    Corby Town 650
    Gloucester City 800
    Halesowen Town 900
    Hemel Hempstead Town 800
    Hitchin Town 1000
    King's Lynn 1100
    Mangotsfield United 850
    Merthyr Tydfil 1100
    Rugby Town 600
    Swindon Supermarine 450
    Team Bath 552
    Tiverton Town 1000
    Yate Town 650


    Now in theory this should mean that any of these teams are "playable" within the game. In reality what you get are a number of teams that are promoted often....
    AFC Wimbledon
    Billericay
    Chelmsford City
    Margate
    Fleetwood
    Gateshead
    Guiseley
    Hednesford
    Ilkeston
    Marine
    Matlock
    Prescot Cables
    Stamford
    Whitby
    Witton Albion
    Worksop
    Bedford
    Hitchin
    King Lynn
    Merthyr Tydfil
    Tiverton

    ..... basically all the teams with a reputation over 1000.

    Then you have the teams that are harder to get but which it is still reasonaly likely that you might see in a career spanning 50 seasons or so.....

    AFC Hornchurch
    Boreham Wood
    Carshalton
    Harrow
    Hendon
    Heybridge Swifts
    Horsham
    Maidstone
    Ramsgate
    Staines
    Tonbridge Angels
    Ashton
    Buxton
    Eastwood
    Frickley Ath
    Kendal
    Leek
    Lincoln
    North Ferriby
    Ossett
    Chippenham
    Cirencester
    Clevedon
    Gloucester
    Halesowen
    Hemel Hempstead
    Mangotsfield

    ...... and then we have the teams with a reputation of 700 or less who it seems are never going to be promoted.

    Ashford Town.
    East Thurrock
    Folkestone
    Harlow
    Hastings
    Leyton
    Wealdstone
    Bashley
    Brackley
    Bromsgrove
    Cheshunt
    Corby
    Rugby
    Swindon Supermarine
    Team Bath
    Yate.

    If you also take into account the significantly higher reputations of the Northern Premier Leagues clubs then you will see that the odds are stacked even more against a team such as Rugby Town becoming playable.

    I would like to see a slight "evening up" in terms of clubs at this level and possibly the introduction of a system whereby all clubs under this level might be able to be promoted but have a pre-set "standard" reputation of something like 500. This would mean that while still possible it would still be VERY unlikely.

    I would however like to see a bigger impact on the reputation of lower league clubs such as this, with regards to Cup runs and possible giant killings.

    One of the problems at the moment is that in my experience, "grey" non playable teams seem to be performing at a level so far above their ability that at the current time this speculation would be irrelevant anyway.

    Anyway, I think this is the route for the future, just not sure how achievable it is in terms of FM09.

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    I'm actually quite surprised how low, or high, the reputation is of some of the teams you listed there, hence I agree that there needs to be some balance perhaps.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Nobby_McDonald:
    This idea is one I feel needs implementing. No matter what country you are playing in, the only teams that can be promoted into playable leagues are the ones who play in the unplayable leagues that immediately feed into it, or those teams that have been relegated out of a playable league while playing the game. This then gives the same pool of teams (66 in England's case) that can be promoted, and no others.

    Why shouldn't the likes of FC United, Sheffield, Kidsgrove Athletic to name just three be able to be promoted to a playable league further down the line?

    It's not down to research. As soon as you press continue for the first time, the game world deviates from the real world. And as it would be at least two years since the start of the game before any of these teams can appear in a playable league, having a 'good number' of players at the start isn't a factor, as the AI manager will have been signing and selling in this time.


    You read my mind, I was thinking of posting a similar thread for the past few days.

    Would be great to get an official answer on this one, very valid points and constructive criticism here.

  24. #24
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Nobby_McDonald:
    quote:
    Originally posted by aaberdeenn:
    Fair enough that in leagues like Scotland where there is no promotion/relegation from the 3rd division as that is the same as in real life so that's fine. (Although I believe that there is a rule where if you finish bottom of the 3rd division 3 times in a row then you would be replaced by a highland league team; but I'm not aware if this is in the game or if it is actually a rule in real life, it's just what I've heard.)

    Feel free to comment.


    This rule does exist in real life, implemented for the start of last season. If a team comes bottom three consecutive seasons, their league place is then up for a vote. Non league teams can apply for it, and the team in question can reapply for their membership.
    Who votes I have no idea.


    If it's decided by a vote then it's not likely to be in the game right?

    Thanks for the clarification on the rule.

  25. #25
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    I'd just turned my game off for the night, but having seen Jimbo's post I thought I would reload it and post how these teams below have done in my Bromsgrove save, which is in October 2051...

    quote:
    Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
    ...... and then we have the teams with a reputation of 700 or less who it seems are never going to be promoted.

    Ashford Town.
    East Thurrock
    Folkestone
    Harlow
    Hastings
    Leyton
    Wealdstone
    Bashley
    Brackley
    Bromsgrove
    Cheshunt
    Corby
    Rugby
    Swindon Supermarine
    Team Bath
    Yate.


    ASHFORD TOWN
    This is the Middlesex based one. They have played two seperate seasons in Conference South and got relegated on both occasions.

    EAST THURROCK UNITED
    One season in Conference South in mid 2020s, and three in mid 2040s, highest finish of 17th.

    FOLKESTONE INVICTA
    22nd in Conference South in 2010/1, three seasons in mid 2030s (highest of 9th) and have returned for the current season.

    HARLOW TOWN
    One single season in Conference South in 2047/8, finished 21st.

    HASTINGS UNITED
    Two seasons in Conference South in mid 2020s, returned in 2046/7 when they finished in their highest position of 7th. Still in Conference South (6th season since return).

    LEYTON
    Two seasons in Conference South - 16th in 2016/7 and 22nd the following season.

    WEALDSTONE
    One season in Conference South in 2018/9 and got relegated. Returned in 2028/9 and haven't dropped out since, and have also spent four seasons in three spells in the Conference (best finish of 14th).

    BASHLEY
    They have spent a total of 15 seasons in the Conference South in two spells, finishing 5th twice. They were relegated in 2043/4 and have not returned since.

    BRACKLEY TOWN
    The lowest of the starting reputations, they first appeared in 2035/6 and were in Conference South for 8 seasons, finishing 8th twice. They have reappeared for this season.

    BROMSGROVE ROVERS
    21st in Conference North in 2016/7, 18th & 20th in Conference South in late 2020s, they reappeared in Conference North in 2047/8, which is when I decided to start managing (Life Begins At Forty thread in LLM) and I took over at Bromsgrove.

    CHESHUNT
    Have not yet appeared in the playable leagues.

    CORBY TOWN
    Three seasons in Conference North when they appeared in 2031/2 - 9th, 6th and 21st. They've yet to return.

    RUGBY TOWN
    Two previous spells of two seasons each (first appeared in 2028/9), best finish of 8th in Conference South. Might be unique in that they have got relegated from Conference North and South. Have reappeared this season in the North.

    SWINDON SUPERMARINE
    Appeared in 2038/9 for three seasons in Conference South, best finish of 7th in the middle season. Came back for one season in 2044/5.

    TEAM BATH
    Easily the best of the teams in Jimbo's lowest group. They appeared in the Conference South in 2020/1 and haven't dropped out since.
    An eight season spell in the Conference was immediately followed up by winning the Conference South title, and another six seasons in the Conference.
    Their best finish was 2nd, in their second season in the Conference.

    YATE TOWN
    First appeared in Conference South in 2036/7, finished 9th the following season and were relegated the season after.
    Came straight back up, but struggled for two seasons and haven't come back up since.

  26. #26
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    As I'm off tomorrow, and don't have to get up, I'll do Jimbo's middle group. Might leave the top group until next time though...

    quote:
    Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
    Then you have the teams that are harder to get but which it is still reasonaly likely that you might see in a career spanning 50 seasons or so.....

    AFC Hornchurch
    Boreham Wood
    Carshalton
    Harrow
    Hendon
    Heybridge Swifts
    Horsham
    Maidstone
    Ramsgate
    Staines
    Tonbridge Angels
    Ashton
    Buxton
    Eastwood
    Frickley Ath
    Kendal
    Leek
    Lincoln
    North Ferriby
    Ossett
    Chippenham
    Cirencester
    Clevedon
    Gloucester
    Halesowen
    Hemel Hempstead
    Mangotsfield



    AFC HORNCHURCH
    First appeared in 2013/4, have spent six seasons in Conference North/South, and got relegated three times. Best of 12th in 2032/3, not seen since 2035/6.

    BOREHAM WOOD
    Appeared in 2014/5, and have 14 seasons in Conference South in two spells. Best finish of 10th in 2045/6, relegated the following season and not yet come back.

    CARSHALTON ATHLETIC
    Appeared quickly in 2009/10 and were in Conference South for 4 seasons. Reappeared in 2026/7 where they had their best finish of 12th. Relegated the next season and not returned.

    HARROW BOROUGH
    Only three seasons - 21st in 2017/8, 22nd in 2020/1 and have reappeared this season.

    HENDON
    Appeared in 2017/8 and lasted 4 seasons before reappearing in 2033/4. Won promotion to the Conference after 2 seasons back, and in 2049/50 won the Conference, finished 15th on their league debut last season.

    HEYBRIDGE SWIFTS
    Appeared in Conference South in 2022/3 for 12 seasons, finishing 2nd in 2027/8. Reappeared in 2045/6.

    HORSHAM
    Ten seasons in Conference South from 2022/3 (best placed 10th). Returned for one season in 2036/7 and have reappeared this season.

    MAIDSTONE UNITED
    Two spells in Conference South for a total of 11 seasons. First came up in 2012/3, and their best season was their reappeared in 2030/1, finishing 8th. Last relegated in 2036/7.

    RAMSGATE
    Conference South first saw them in 2019/20, the following season being their best in 4th place. Went back down after 12 seasons, and reappeared for a single season in 2046/7.

    STAINES TOWN
    Were impressive for much of their 8 seasons of play from 2025/6. Going up at the first attempt, they made a good fight of staying up in the Conference but just failed in 21st. Five seasons of challenging to go back up led to a sudden relegation... and no reappearance.

    TONBRIDGE ANGELS
    Bit of a yo-yo team, have had 5 spells in Conference South totalling 10 seasons. First appeared in 2011/2, best of 6th was in 2021/2 and their last relegation was 2043/4.

    ASHTON UNITED
    First came into Conference North in 2028/9 for 4 seasons, finishing in 11th the season before relegation. Came back in 2043/4 but only lasted 2 seasons.

    BUXTON
    Their single season in 2013/4 didn't bode well, and two seasons of struggle in from 2019/20 didn't either. They pulled things round though next season and won promotion, and stayed in the Conference for 8 seasons, finishing 6th one season. They've been in Conference North since getting relegated from the Conference.

    EASTWOOD TOWN
    6 seasons in Conference North in 3 spells, they did manage 6th in 2043/4.
    First appeared in 2025/6.

    FRICKLEY ATHLETIC
    6 seasons in 2 spells in Conference North. 8th place in their 2024/5 boded well, but got relegated the season after. Their highest finish of 7th in 2038/9 also leed to a relegation immediately after.

    KENDAL TOWN
    In their third spell and 9th season in Conference North. First appeared in 2014/5 when they lasted 6 seasons. They reappeared last season (2050/1) and had their best finish of 10th, and currently lead Conference North after 11 games this season.

    LEEK TOWN
    Appeared in 2014/5 and enjoyed a 24 season run, although 19th in their first season suggested they wouldn't.
    Won Conference North in 2027/8 and finished in 22nd in their sole season in the Conference. Relegated in 2037/8 and not come back since.

    LINCOLN UNITED
    Had an 11 season run from 2018/9, their debut season their best (9th). Reappeared for one season in 2032/3.

    NORTH FERRIBY UNITED
    After one season in Conference North in 2016/7, they didn't return until 2045/6. Finished 2nd on their return, and 3rd and playoff winners the season after, they've yo-yo'd since, being relegated twice from the Conference and are now in Conference North.

    OSSETT TOWN
    One season in Conference North, 22nd in 2026/7.

    CHIPPENHAM TOWN
    Five seasons in 3 spells in Conference North, first appearing in 2008/9. Best finish of 13th.

    CIRENCESTER TOWN
    Three seasons from 2031/2 in Conference South, they reappeared in 2049/50 and came 2nd last season but lost in the playoffs.

    CLEVEDON TOWN
    Have yet to appear in the playable leagues.

    GLOUCESTER CITY
    Appeared for 1 season in 2027/8 and 3 more in 2038/9, which saw their best finish of 11th.
    They ground share with Forest Green Rovers apparently, must be the real deal as there is no information of a ground upgrade or build in game.

    HALESOWEN TOWN
    Two seasons in Conference North from 2021/2 were followed up by 13 more from 2034/5. Highest position of 6th came in 2042/3.

    HEMEL HEMPSTEAD TOWN
    Appeared first in 2019/20, and have spent 8 seasons in 3 spells in Conference North/South/ Best was 12th in 2047/8.

    MANGOTSFIELD UNITED
    2013/4 saw their first season and immediate relegation. 16 seasons in 4 spells includes a 12 season run from 2017/8 with 6th their best finish in 2020/1.


    Right, I'm off bed now, getting tired. I'll do the remainder when I next load it up, which will probably be tomorrow. Be interesting to see how they all compare...

  27. #27
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    I would like to see a Scottish 3rd Division relegation system. It may be unrealistic, but it is quite repetitive seeing the same teams in and out of the league.

    Everytime I look at the competitions, Pollok seems to do very well, and it would be pretty cool to see them promoted some how. Also I used to live in Pollok aswell, so it would be cool to play as them.

    And also in the English non playable, I'd like to play as Cockfosters.

  28. #28
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    quote:
    It may be unrealistic


    The game aims to be as realistic as possible without being overcomplicated so this is never going to happen.

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    Nobby. Delighted to have been proved wrong in terms of that bottom group no being promoted, (ever) .

    Here's a little question for you.....

    When you went on your long holiday, what did you do with the detail level of the English leagues.

    It's become apparrant recently that SI now used "reputation" for simulating games that are either in non playable leagues or in competitions with low levels of detail activated.

    Knowing you I would expect that you set the detail to full, (you do have a decent pc after all), and this may be the reason that you have had the positive results that tou have shown above.

    One of my local teams, (Hendon), stand out from the pile as they are now plying their trade in League 2.

    The one thing that I would ask, (and It might be something that irks you to), but how many of these lower league teams have achieved success because of feeder relationships? It's gonna be hard to check but the player history records might give you some indication if the players are still active.

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    I'm still playing FM05, but i do believe reputation does change for non league teams for cup runs (I now it's not the main point of the thread, but it was brough up earlier, so I thought I'd address it).

    In my game Witton Albion had never been in a playable league, ever. Then one season they ade it to the FA Cup quarter finals (beating chelsea on the way) and the very next season appeared in a playable league.

    Of course this could just be coincidence, but the timing seems far too much for me to ignore.


    PS. I also took over Rugby when they came up, but I wasn't very good with them.

  31. #31
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    Jimbo - I never even thought of changing the detail level but the 40 years of holiday play, so it was on whatever setting it was when the game first loaded. On full now though.
    Only English leagues are running, which you might know already Jimbo.

    I wouldn't know where to start looking reference the feeder clubs, nor which players to start checking on. It might be worth noting though that Hendon currently don't have any affiliates, while Margate (who I'll detail shortly) are parents to Cowdenbeath, Gosport and Kingstonian, and a feeder to Deportivo, none of which are allowed under FA rules.

  32. #32
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Skunner:
    I would like to see a Scottish 3rd Division relegation system. It may be unrealistic, but it is quite repetitive seeing the same teams in and out of the league.


    The only Scottish Third Division relegation system should be the one I detailed above. I don't know if this is in FM08 as I've not played in Scotland on this version.

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    Nobby.

    Have a look at this thread.

    Basically, someone did a holiday experiment that came up with some strange results. The reason that the results appeared strange is that they didn't alter the "detail level" before going on holiday. By doing this, it means that the league is considered an "inactive" laegue and thus results are not calculated in the normal way, but instead "reputation" is used to largely determine results. It's a bit of a cheat if you ask me, but then I suppose it it's classed as an "inactive" league, then I don't really blame them if it saves on processing time.

    The thing is that it doesn't produce accurate results. It's something that i only found after reading this thread.

  34. #34
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    Nobby...theres no relegation from scottish 3rd if thats what ur meaning

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    Right, the check on Jimbo's top group of non league teams.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Jimbokav1971
    Now in theory this should mean that any of these teams are "playable" within the game. In reality what you get are a number of teams that are promoted often....
    AFC Wimbledon
    Billericay
    Chelmsford City
    Margate
    Fleetwood
    Gateshead
    Guiseley
    Hednesford
    Ilkeston
    Marine
    Matlock
    Prescot Cables
    Stamford
    Whitby
    Witton Albion
    Worksop
    Bedford
    Hitchin
    King Lynn
    Merthyr Tydfil
    Tiverton



    AFC WIMBLEDON
    Appeared at the first opportunity (what a surprise) and have not gone back to non league since. Have spent roughly half their time in Conference and half in Conference South. Have won the Conference South 3 times, and the Conference once in 2037/8. They only played one season of League Two football though, finishing bottom.
    Maybe surprisingly, they have yet to reach the Third Round of the FA Cup.

    BILLERICAY TOWN
    They have moved to the 9855 all seated Clarke Stadium.
    Like Wimbledon, they appeared at the first opportunity and have been in the playable leagues ever since. They have been more successful though, having played more in the Conference than Conference South, and having two spells in the Football League, all 5 seasons being in League Two, with a best finish of 6th in their second season, 2034/5.
    One Conference South and two Conference titles to their name.

    CHELMSFORD CITY
    Came up one season after their near neighbours and spent almost their entire time in Conference South. 2016/7 was their sole season in the Conference (21st) and after relegation in 2032/3, it was 10 years before they reappeared. They've often challenged for promotion but only once achieved it.

    MARGATE
    Easily the stand out team from the 66 teams who can become playable.
    Hartsdown Park now holds 23,739 (22,039 seated) although they are now £22,000,000 in debt as a result.
    Their first two spells in the 2010s from 2010/1 were uninspired, but their return in 2030/1 saw them set off on an almost (original) Wimbledon esque rise...
    Champions of Conference South that season, they won the Conference in 2036/7 and were promoted again the following season. They struggled that first season in League One but bounced back two season later before winning League One in 2042/3. They are now in their 9th season in the Championship, with their debut season there being their best, 10th position and have reached the Quarter Final in both the FA Cup and League Cup.

    FLEETWOOD TOWN
    First up for 2013/4, they've had 4 spells in playable leagues totalling 16 seasons. Their longest spell of 7 seasons also saw their sole season in the Conference in 2046/7 where they finished bottom despite amassing 45 points. They also got relegated the following season and haven't returned yet.

    GATESHEAD
    2008/9 saw them come up and in 2011/2 then won Conference North, but came straight back down and were relegated from Conference North in 2031/2.
    They returned in 2045/6, won Conference North for a second time in 2048/9, finished 15th in the Conference the next season and this season is their third back at this level.

    GUISELEY
    First came to Conference North in 2012/3 and haven't dropped out since. They had two single seasons in the Conference, 21st their best in 2021/2, which was the last time they were there. Won Conference North both times to get there.

    HEDNESFORD TOWN
    Appeared at the first opportunity, and despite getting relegated from the Conference North three times, they have spent the majority of the time in the playable leagues, 6 seasons of which have been in 3 spells in the Conference. Their best finish was 2nd in 2042/3... they got relegated the following season!

    ILKESTON TOWN
    2017/8 saw them last two seasons in Conference North. They returned in 2028/9 and have won Conference North 4 times since. In their 17 seasons in the Conference, they have finished 7th three times and 6th once.

    MARINE
    Appeared in 2009/10 for 9 seasons in Conference North. Returned in 2031/2 for 13 seasons, 5 of which were in 2 spells in the Conference. Conference North champions once, best finish in Conference was 10th in 2039/40.

    MATLOCK TOWN
    I'm surprised the next three have such high reputations, as historically and currently they don't match the others in this top group.
    Matlock have spent all 16 seasons in Conference North - 14 from 2010/1 and 2 from 2039/40. Best finish was 7th in 2021/2.

    PRESCOT CABLES
    Coming up in 2017/8, their 10 season run saw 1 spent in the Conference in 2044/5. Their 51 points was only enough for bottom spot!
    They returned to Conference North in 2040/1 for 1 season, again a high points total (45) couldn't prevent them from finishing bottom.

    STAMFORD
    One single season in Conference North, in 2021/2 they finished 21st.

    WHITBY TOWN
    Two sizeable spells in Conference North - 12 season from 2012/3 and 9 more from 2041/2. Best finish was 3rd in 2023/4.

    WITTON ALBION
    10 seasons in 2 spells early on (from 2011/2), they disappeared for a long time until reappearing for the current 2051/2 season. They finished 4th in 2012/3.

    WORKSOP TOWN
    From 2011/2 they had 8 seasons of mediocrity and struggle. They returned in 2035/6 and did much better, winning Conference North in 2041/2 but finished bottom in their only Conference season. Still in Conference North.

    BEDFORD TOWN
    First appeared in 2010/11, they have had 4 spells, all 20 seasons in Conference North/South, their geographical position meaning they are one of the clubs to switch between the two most often. Finished 3rd in Conference North in 2020/1, but were relegated from the South last season.

    HITCHIN TOWN
    Have rather struggled, two single seasons in 2014/5 and 2022/3 were followed by 4 seasons from 2039/40, with 11th in 2040/1 their best finish.

    KING'S LYNN
    Started an 8 season spell in Conference North in 2009/10. 2022/3 saw them come back for 17 seasons, with 3 seasons in 2 spells in the Conference, best finish of 10th. They returned again in 2046/7 and are in their 6th season back. Won Conference North twice.

    MERTHYR TYDFIL
    Are currently in their 4th spell and 19th season in Conference South. 6th place last season was their best yet.

    TIVERTON TOWN
    First appeared in 2009/10. Relegated straight away but came straight back up, only to last 2 more seasons.
    It was 2037/8 before they returned, but they have been in the active leagues ever since, spending 9 seasons in 3 spells in Conference with 5th their best in 2049/50. Now in Conference South again.

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    Nobby: Good idea, I was thinking along the same lines and thus saving myself from making a like-wise post.

    And looking at countries where "B"/"II" teams are existing (Germany, Spain, Austria, Czech Republic & Norway spring into mind) that it will have the added benefit that not only the "B"/"II" teams that play in a league just under a playable league but finally all "B"/"II" teams have a chance to get promoted into the playable leagues.

    Finally it will be possible to bring a lower league team to the top and then some 5-10-20 seasons later see the 2nd team appear in the lowest playable league.

    If promotion indeed is related to reputation than the reputation of "B"/"II" teams should be linked to the reputation of the first team as the "B"/"II" team of an initial lower league team will have a fairly low reputation.

    That being said I'm wondering if promotion for "B"/"II" teams is properly implemented right now. I checked out the number of 2nd teams in playable leagues for a couple of countries in my save (mid 2018 right now) and compared that to the beginning.

    Austria 1 (was 2)
    Cz Rep 3 (was 0)
    Germany 3 (was 9)
    Norway 4 (was 9)
    Spain 6 (was 13)

    So besides the Czech Republic where B teams are getting promoted to the playable league on a regularly basis all other leagues have seen a steady decline of 2nd teams in playable leagues.

  37. #37
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    quote:
    Originally posted by willz71172:
    Nobby...theres no relegation from scottish 3rd if thats what ur meaning


    quote:
    Originally posted by Nobby:
    This rule does exist in real life, implemented for the start of last season. If a team comes bottom three consecutive seasons, their league place is then up for a vote. Non league teams can apply for it, and the team in question can reapply for their membership.
    Who votes I have no idea.


    So Willz, yes there is a possible relegation out of Scottish 3rd in real life. No idea if that's implemented in FM though.
    And cut out the txt-speak please.

  38. #38
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    i think the game is a lot more likely to promote lower reputation sides than it was in fm07, giving it a little bit more diversity - i remember playing one game in 07 in which wimbledon were relegated and promoted every season for about a decade, their high reputation ensuring they bounced back every time

  39. #39
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    To conclude, reputation seems to play a big factor... but this might have been magnified by the fact the leagues may not have been run in full detail during the holiday period (though they have been since). This should not be seen as an oversight by me, as it was never my intention for this to be an experiment of sorts, my intention was to start the game further into it chronologically than I have ever got before.

    But... I still think that clubs further down the pyramid should have the opportunity to be promoted into the playable leagues. And why not? Where were Farsley Celtic and Histon 15 years ago? Some way below the Conference is the answer.

  40. #40
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    In Portugal a couple of years ago we had a "football crisis" that saw many historical clubs folding, just to restart some seasons later in the regional divisions.

    The thing is, they ought to be playing in the nationals in a season or two, regardless of where they are playing now. They are consistently getting promoted every season, nevertheless that will never happen in FM, because they still play this season below the top-most unplayable league.

    That's what's unrealistic about it. They even have high reputations (and play domestic friendlies every season against top clubs) but they will never ever play in the nationals.

    Of course, I edited the database to allow them to play in the nationals because I seriously think it is a game flaw... but it isn't just the same, because since the promotions are reputation-based they end up being promoted after just 1 season...


    PS: another thing badly coded in unplayable leagues is the club debts. Recently my hometown club got relegated to the Portuguese 3rd division after some financial problems, and they're currently last and most probably will be relegated to the regional leagues. Despite that, since their rep is very high, they bounce up in FM after the 1st season, even if we edit the database to give them a huge debt - it just disappears after they promote!

  41. #41
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    That seems to be an issue I've noticed playing my current save. Teams like Chasetown and Quorn have been spending anything up to £100,000 on a single player, and paying up to £2000 per week in wages.

  42. #42
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    Surely the solution should (and could) easily be the following:

    1) Calculate who goes up the the playable leagues as normal.

    2) randomly pick the correct number of teams who should be relegated to the level below from those who were not moved into the playable leagues and change the league that they play in. Stick a note in that clubs history that they were relegated to whatever league they are being placed in.

    3) randomly pick the correct number of teams noted as playing in the league/s below that feed into that division to move into it, thus giving them the chance to become playable.Stick a note in that clubs history that they were promoted to whatever league they are being placed in.

    4) repeat process all the way down the chain for that given country.

    5) The lowest included non-playable/s league get no relegation for each nation.

    6) You save the game and the non-playable teams retain the changes to the league that they are playing in as per how playable teams retain their changes in ongoing games.

    Speaking as a database developer, In database query terms it really shouldn't take up that much processing time considering the amount of other calculations that they game currently performs????


    P.S. I really hope that the Scottish 3rd division relegation rule is in, as the stagnancy of the Scottish leagues is what prevents me from bothering to play in it (despite usually having it as playable in most of my games).

  43. #43
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    This problem has a simple solution. It something ive championed for a while.

    Simply. if SI really have some concern about this but dont have the programming or manpower to implement leagues, then make creating new leagues accessible for the user in the editor.

    Once that happens, it wouldnt be too long before downloads start appearing with ryman and unibond leages etc .
    With moderately accurate info on the teams too

    I know if that option was avilable id get to work straight away

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    To be honest I'm astonished that especially since leagues are named, that they aren't more dynamic with pro and rel even if they are unplayable.

    It is simple to implement.

    It's strange seeing leagues static for ever.

  45. #45
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    Nice to see some LLaMas making an appearance in GQ and starting one of the few intelligent threads in here.

  46. #46
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Nobby_McDonald:
    Where were Farsley Celtic and Histon 15 years ago? Some way below the Conference is the answer.


    Great point. I've just stumbled across this thread and was going to summarise by saying something along those lines.

    To get into the Conference and beyond is never going to happen for the majority of teams below the Conf N/S, but there are lots of sides who can get to this level with a bit of luck.

    Who outside of the West Mids non league scene had heard of Chasetown 2 years ago? In FM08, they're effectively ringfenced from ever reaching a playable league, but who's to say they (or indeed anyone else from their league) won't be mixing it with the Boston's and Kettering's of this world in a couple of years time.

  47. #47
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Nobby_McDonald:
    That seems to be an issue I've noticed playing my current save. Teams like Chasetown and Quorn have been spending anything up to £100,000 on a single player, and paying up to £2000 per week in wages.


    Not too far off the Chasetown in real life tbh

  48. #48
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Giziar:
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by willz71172:
    Nobby...theres no relegation from scottish 3rd if thats what ur meaning


    quote:
    Originally posted by Nobby:
    This rule does exist in real life, implemented for the start of last season. If a team comes bottom three consecutive seasons, their league place is then up for a vote. Non league teams can apply for it, and the team in question can reapply for their membership.
    Who votes I have no idea.


    Does this happen in the game? Bound to be hard enough to implement. Its the other teams in the league which vote I believe, so its not that likley they'll actully relegate any team anyway. I can't imagine it's too difficult for the game to make up a few unseen promotions and relegations in unplayable leagues. It is a minor issue and only one that becomes aparant in long term games but I think it would be worth resolving.

    People say some clubs have no chance of getting promoted but remember at that level a fairly small injection of money or a few good signings can go a long way. Frankly, I don't think anyone would object to the unplayable leagues having teams promoted/relegated at random. Slightly unrealistic in first few years but who can say were Alferton Town or FC United will be a 2018?

  49. #49
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    quote:
    Originally posted by fonz:
    but who can say were Alferton Town or FC United will be a 2018?


    Well Alfreton haven't got the fan base to sustain Conference (and beyond) football, unfortunately.

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    This thread interests me a lot (for obvious reasons).

    I once got told by someone at SI that it was possible for teams below the three feeder leagues for the BSN/S to be promoted. I have been doubtful of this since I have never heard of anyone actually seeing it happen.

    If this was the case, how many extra leagues would need to be simulated in the background in the way that the three feeder leagues are currently?

  51. #51
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    This is a great thread one of the best on here in ages. If all LLaMa's come up with discussions of this quality please visit more often!

  52. #52
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    quote:
    Originally posted by dafuge:

    If this was the case, how many extra leagues would need to be simulated in the background in the way that the three feeder leagues are currently?


    Following restructuring, each of the three feeder leagues has two leagues below it - so that's a total of six additional league.

  53. #53
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    quote:
    Originally posted by -simmo-:
    quote:
    Originally posted by dafuge:

    If this was the case, how many extra leagues would need to be simulated in the background in the way that the three feeder leagues are currently?


    Following restructuring, each of the three feeder leagues has two leagues below it - so that's a total of six additional league.


    What would be the minimum research requirements be for these six leagues? Would just the reputation of the clubs be enough?

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    quote:
    Originally posted by aston_martin:
    This is a great thread one of the best on here in ages. If all LLaMa's come up with discussions of this quality please visit more often!


    As long as they don't post "TG! KUTGW!!" in every single thread.

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    Hard to say really, dafuge.

    Seeing as they can't get promoted until season 3, if implemented correctly, then I personally feel their reputation alone would be sufficient.

    The reason for this is that, in real life, clubs at this sort of level have a much higher turnover of players so by the time they got to the Conf N / S it will be a largely different squad anyway.

    So, other than reputation and cosmetic stuff like stadium, finance and attendances (which is already in the db anyway), I can't see too much of a problem.

    There are some clubs in the three feeders, and indeed the Conf N/S, that do not have researchers, whereas some level eight clubs do have researchers anyway so in some cases reasonable info is already there anyway.

  56. #56
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    It would be interesting to hear the reason why this can't happen in the game. Could it be because of the more obscure nations in the game?

  57. #57
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    quote:
    Originally posted by dafuge:
    It would be interesting to hear the reason why this can't happen in the game. Could it be because of the more obscure nations in the game?


    I think now restructuring is sorted (there were only 5 feeders last season), then it could be coded in for FM09, time and priority permitting of course.

  58. #58
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    quote:
    Originally posted by dafuge:
    What would be the minimum research requirements be for these six leagues? Would just the reputation of the clubs be enough?


    I wouldn't have thought a great deal of research would be needed, so long as the teams concerned are active in signing players by the time they get promoted their squad(s) should have a sufficient number of players to make them reasonably playable.

    The key element would be to ensure that the club information such as stadium name/size, geographical location & key staff are correct when the db is loaded at the start of any save & most if not all of that information should be available via the web.

    As for deciding promotion reputation along with some 'RNG' running in the background should be ok, I imagine there wouldn't be any huge differences in the reputations of clubs that far down the footballing pyramid anyway.

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    I'd like to see non-league feeder clubs getting a higher chance of promotion, double so from bellow where normal teams can get promoted from.

    It should be a given that if you send your bellow league feeder good youth players for two or more seasons they enter the pot for promotion to the conf s/n.

    I mean, it's not often teams have strikers scoring fourty and don't get promoted. Right?

    The other issue is that it makes those clubs more usefull if you're a higher league team. As it stands they play non-existant games. I'd love to help a poor local team progress to the regional conference and from there on up by sending them all my youth players.

  60. #60
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    Sorry for the double post, but as far as research goes in Dafuge's challenge I got Carshalton with zero players aside from the youth team of newgens when they were promoted.

    It's lovely having a clean slate, I'm sure many people wouldn't mind starting afresh with a club with no players that was promoted.

    And as noted stadium, attendances, etc are all ready in the database. If a club has no details surely it could just be generated a 'local town name stadium' and such?

  61. #61
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Spagbol:
    Sorry for the double post, but as far as research goes in Dafuge's challenge I got Carshalton with zero players aside from the youth team of newgens when they were promoted.



    Strangely, this was an issue that was recognised and fixed with one of the patches for FM07, it is surprising to see that it has happened again with FM08.

  62. #62
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    quote:
    Originally posted by dafuge:

    If this was the case, how many extra leagues would need to be simulated in the background in the way that the three feeder leagues are currently?


    None! Just select random teams to go up and down in those non-playable divisions based on the value that is stored for the league that the team is designated as playing in!


    Not knowing the ins and outs of whatever database system SI use for their game, using SQL as a comparison it would literally be as simple as something similar to the following (you may have to exclude teams moved into the division by previous queries during the end of season league/fixture generation);

    SELECT Team_ID FROM Teams
    WHERE Division = "Isthmian League Division One North"
    ORDER BY RAND()
    LIMIT 1;

    "Team_ID" being the teams identifier field, "Teams" being the table that the team is stored in, "Division" being the column in the table whereby the value for what league competition that team is currently playing in is stored and "Limit" being the number of teams to be promoted.

    For relegation, it would be exactly the same query except excluding the clubs that were selected as being promoted, and possibly a different Limit depending on how many teams are supposed to be relegated.

    Then those clubs Division value would have to be changed, and a note added to their club history pertaining to promotion/relegation.

    In terms of processing time, well lets just say that this forum page alone performs far more complicated database queries than the above.

  63. #63
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    Note that that doesn't cover the allocation of which league each team would move into (for example where tiers are split into regional variations of the same level of football), but it simply choosing random sides at that level of the game avoids any sort of reputation based simulation with pretty much minimum effort.

  64. #64
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    quote:
    Originally posted by N^G:
    but it simply choosing random sides at that level of the game avoids any sort of reputation based simulation with pretty much minimum effort.


    But we don't want that, do we? Reputation should be a factor to choose the teamss that go up/down, just as current division and general quality of the squad should be factors as well.

  65. #65
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Joren V:

    But we don't want that, do we? Reputation should be a factor to choose the teamss that go up/down, just as current division and general quality of the squad should be factors as well.


    Yes and no, in the interests of good old realism, we probably do want reputation to be a factor, because it keeps the game as true to its often touted claim of being realistic as it can.

    However we also don't, as extra stuff would have to be included for all these currently-never-playables such as re-evaluating their reputation every season based on cup performances, as well as having to take into consideration sugar daddy type board takeovers and the like that could have a major impact at that level (as it does at most levels) depending on the comparitive wealth of the club in question's rivals.

    If based on reputation (and it probably would be as most of those non-playables are grey teams on a medium database, don't know about large), and assuming that reputation progressively gets lower at the lowest levels of football included in the game (I admittedly don't know this as a fact as I haven't bothered to check the editor), you would probably never get to see any of the teams from the most obscure divisions as they would likely just see-saw down there based on their reputation which would have little opportunity to progress to a significant extent outside whatever round they reached in their respective national cups.

    I guess the question would be whether most people be willing to sacrifice a division or two from elsewhere in their usual game setup to accommodate the examples above amongst other details for teams that they can't even view the league tables for. I'd be happy with it, and plenty of players who enjoy lower leagues would probably prefer it that way, but I wouldn't be surprised if "why can my pc handle fewer leagues than before" became the latest "closing down" or "shots:goals ratio" crisis in the community if non-playable leagues were given the detail that they deserve in order to improve the game's realism.

    Thats why I'd personally go with simply randomising it, as most people (myself included) don't know their Woodford Utd's from their Abington Towns, but would like to see small teams from the lowest reaches of the league pyramids appear as playables from time to time.

  66. #66

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    I think that, if it was possible to implement, I wouldn't mind about it being purely random who was promoted/relegated. At that level, I'd imagine reputations would be mostly the same, and it would save a lot of programming time and loading time, without making much difference - although those who want their non-league team to eventually get promoted to a league, and try this by giving them 10000 reputation would be disappointed.

    quote:
    Originally posted by N^G:
    Most people (myself included) don't know their Woodford Utd's from their Abington Towns


    And it's Abingdon Town. Sorry to be pedantic, but it's very close to where I live.

  67. #67
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    I play on a large database and some unplayable teams have been active in signing players (some even being silly - Quorn and Chasetown have both this season signed a player for a six figure transfer fee and paying them a four figure weekly wage). Others though have done nothing and have an all grey squad, which in turn leads to the problem of the grey teams being much better than they should be (see other threads).

    I'm very interested to see what people from SI think about this, and if it's something they might be able to work into the 2009 version.

  68. #68
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    Tempted to holiday to 2020 now to manage Hastings

    Bottom of the BSS with Tonbridge, second season, can't win as morale is stuck at very poor because I let the assistant manage friendlies and didn't realise the last friendly was Leyton Orient and they got thrashed 6-0.

    How do the regens look in 2050?

  69. #69
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    There is one that looks like an escaped convict, my scout found him on a search, possibly at a prison match.

    Look in what sense Scoham?

  70. #70
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    Oh, worth noting in addition to the large database, I retained all English players, as it is the only country's leagues I'm running.

  71. #71
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    Realistic attributes, best players are as good as they are at the start of the game, lower league clubs don't have much better or much worse players etc.

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