should we all really be

[Betty Swalls]

betatesters? i mean, i can´t express how thrilled i am that si wants me, and some of you, to give them feedback on this and that by participating in this forum, but i´m just concerned that most of us have peepoor communication skills and usually speak through our frustrations which doesnt turn out that well, by the looks of it. i have looked at my qualifications to see if i am eligible in such matters and i would love to think so, but who am i kidding, right?

if i were si, i would have a professional team of testers on the matter just to relieve the community of this burden. if you use qualified folks compared to unqualified folks then i think that the results will be more clear cut and easier to sort out. sorry, maybe it´s just me thinking out loud

[MoldeFK15]

Oh do shut up - people need to realise the alternatives for crying out loud.
SI do have Betatesters but they are bound to miss some things as there are so many outcomes to so many situations.

The alternative is that SI release the game and then say NO to patches altogether - look at the last champ man in 2010 - no patch was given despite numerous bugs - you should be thankful that they listen to us rather than "treat us as beta testers"

[slipknot67]

betatesters? i mean, i can´t express how thrilled i am that si wants me, and some of you, to give them feedback on this and that by participating in this forum, but i´m just concerned that most of us have peepoor communication skills and usually speak through our frustrations which doesnt turn out that well, by the looks of it. i have looked at my qualifications to see if i am eligible in such matters and i would love to think so, but who am i kidding, right?

if i were si, i would have a professional team of testers on the matter just to relieve the community of this burden. if you use qualified folks compared to unqualified folks then i think that the results will be more clear cut and easier to sort out. sorry, maybe it´s just me thinking out loud

I never usually reply in these type of threads but I have to say that is the most ill informed nonsense I've read on here.

[Neil Brock]

Thanks for calling our test team 'unqualified'

We have a comprehensive beta test to be honest, not to mention a full time internal testing team. However you have to realise we only have so many eyes with some many hours to use them. Some things do get spotted by us that can't be fixed due to time constraints and potential knock-ons. We play the game ourselves, so we work hard in trying to create the best playing experience not only for our userbase, but in a slight selfish way ourselves! We all want the best possible version of Football Manager. We do ask a lot from our community in terms of asking them to log issues they come across on the bugs forum, but only because we care so much and we're all working towards the same goal - as said, the best possible version of Football Manager.

[Betty Swalls]

Thanks for calling our test team 'unqualified'

i was actually referring to us, as in us the people. i think that we are the unqualified ones, especially when reading stuff on the forum

[Dr. Hook]

To be fair to SI, imagine all the millions of possible interactions, key clicks, screens, etc in this game and realize that there is no way they could ever hope to put together a QA team large enough to do every single weird thing some user might do in hopes of spotting a bug.

[jimbowmanuk]

SI try their best to keep the game bug free but with so much data any game company could easily miss a couple of things when looking at the whole picture, as opposed to someone playing one game and noticing faults in the match engine, which could be a number of things from bugs to your tactics not being right for the players. They are constantly fixing match engine bugs in FML as they recieve the feedback and they use this info to help with the match engine performance for future FM games. I wish people would stop whinging about the game every time an update comes out. You wont get a more indepth football management game in the market.

[Betty Swalls]

SI try their best to keep the game bug free but with so much data any game company could easily miss a couple of things when looking at the whole picture, as opposed to someone playing one game and noticing faults in the match engine, which could be a number of things from bugs to your tactics not being right for the players. They are constantly fixing match engine bugs in FML as they recieve the feedback and they use this info to help with the match engine performance for future FM games. I wish people would stop whinging about the game every time an update comes out. You wont get a more indepth football management game in the market.

i can kind of see what your getting at here. so, your theory is that a goomba with a keyboard just randomly punching keys will uncover more bugs then a qualified programmer gamer. aha. so, time to hire the goombas, that is a good point

i can´t recognise the whinning part?!? i have really analysed the post and just can´t see it, remember i did say sorry for speaking my mind. i just didn´t know that the subject is so, how do you say? uuhhh, touchy

[jimbowmanuk]

i can kind of see what your getting at here. so, your theory is that a goomba with a keyboard just randomly punching keys will uncover more bugs then a qualified programmer gamer. aha. so, time to hire the goombas, that is a good point

What i'm refering to on this point is that SI cant check every minute detail of every club when testing the game as there are 1000's of clubs and tens of 1000's of matches played every season they cant see if the GK in one team comes out of position all the time but doesn't in other teams but you would notice this on your save as it would be your team and costing you countless goals, the same goes for facilities and stadiums they might miss a new stadium thats been in planning forever as every club may go through like normal but in 1 persons save they'll notice this.

i can´t recognise the whinning part?!? i have really analysed the post and just can´t see it, remember i did say sorry for speaking my mind. i just didn´t know that the subject is so, how do you say? uuhhh, touchy

Sorry about that but for 2 days now i've been reading about constant whingers and the new patch so its in my head that people are whingong too much

[danny25]

betatesters? i mean, i can´t express how thrilled i am that si wants me, and some of you, to give them feedback on this and that by participating in this forum, but i´m just concerned that most of us have peepoor communication skills and usually speak through our frustrations which doesnt turn out that well, by the looks of it. i have looked at my qualifications to see if i am eligible in such matters and i would love to think so, but who am i kidding, right?

if i were si, i would have a professional team of testers on the matter just to relieve the community of this burden. if you use qualified folks compared to unqualified folks then i think that the results will be more clear cut and easier to sort out. sorry, maybe it´s just me thinking out loud

have you had any problems since 11.3 was released? noticed any bugs?

[Betty Swalls]

have you had any problems since 11.3 was released? noticed any bugs?

you see, i really don´t think i am qualified to make that call. i don´t know if it is bugs or some screenshot i saw recently

[jimbowmanuk]

you see, i really don´t think i am qualified to make that call. i don´t know if it is bugs or some screenshot i saw recently

is that a goomba with a keyboard just randomly punching keys

sorry couldn't resist

[danny25]

you see, i really don´t think i am qualified to make that call. i don´t know if it is bugs or some screenshot i saw recently

i take it then, when you say not qualified, that you're not playing the game (fm 2011), or have never played fm 2011

[Suzie MUFC]

All betatesting really is is spotting a problem in the game and reporting it. Anyone can do that, especially going by the amount of bug threads posted in GD (please post them in the bugs forum, otherwise it has the potential to ruin the game for others).

The "qualified" part comes down to the people who recreate and fix the problems. The betatesters don't do that, the SI testing team do.

The problem is that the community have almost become integral to the process of improving FM, to the point where sometimes it feels like a substandard product can be released to fit in with SEGA's publishing deadline, and the thought of "it's OK, we've got the community to fall back on." It's a double-edged sword. It's great that you can have 100,000 problem spotters, but not when it could potentially be relied upon to the company's advantage. There's a fine line.

I'm one of the people who now think that FM should be released every other year, so that you can have much more time to improve on the next version, and in the gap year, release a data update for £5 or something. That's what SWOS and a few other football games did in the past.

[CaptainPlanet]

We are all testers if we buy the game early, we log bugs for SI to fix and by the time the third patch is out the game is playable. So if you buy the game before March each year, you get to be a tester. If you buy the game in March each year, you don't have to test the game and you still get an annual release.

The only people who are unhappy, are those who want a fully tested game in October. Which is unrealistic.

[Betty Swalls]

i take it then, when you say not qualified, that you're not playing the game (fm 2011), or have never played fm 2011

of course i have and am playing the game, it just doesn´t qualify me to make those type of decisions. you see, first we have to establish what is exactly a bug or not.

if i list a few things:

clear cut chances: many would argue that there is a bug here, but i think it could be something else

memory loss: not happening currently, but i guess it´s a bug

crash dump: most likely not a bug, could be all those add ons that are at fault

crossing: many say it is, i don´t know

i could go on and on, but they all would just end in guesses on my part. how can i be sure? i think that si should at least give us a check list so we know if it is a bug or not

[danny25]

of course i have and am playing the game, it just doesn´t qualify me to make those type of decisions. you see, first we have to establish what is exactly a bug or not.

if i list a few things:

clear cut chances: many would argue that there is a bug here, but i think it could be something else

memory loss: not happening currently, but i guess it´s a bug

crash dump: most likely not a bug, could be all those add ons that are at fault

crossing: many say it is, i don´t know

i could go on and on, but they all would just end in guesses on my part. how can i be sure? i think that si should at least give us a check list so we know if it is a bug or not

you report what you think maybe a bug, si look into it and the result is a patch, its amazing how these things work!!

[Betty Swalls]

you report what you think maybe a bug, si look into it and the result is a patch, its amazing how these things work!!

this is where i think the whole process goes utterly wrong, causes a lot of mumbojumbo. in other words, nontransparent. you see, there is actually a huge difference between a bug and what is not a bug and i am pretty sure you don´t even know the answer to that. i was just pointing out, if we were to have a spreadsheet, or something similar, establishing what is actually a bug or not it would make all our jobs a little easier, don´t ya think?!?

let´s say someone comes out all gung ho demanding a hotfix because his fullback doesn´t tackle the ball even though he has put his closing down to minimum , is that a bug or just how the game works? we miss the point a lot of the time, don´t you think alot of us testers would stop grabbing eachother´s throats if we knew what we were talking about?!?

sorry couldn't resist

i don´t think it is fair that you edited my post so it looked like i called you a goomba that just punches keys on a keyboard. what are you trying to do, get me in trouble?!?

[sporadicsmiles]

As someone who has played this game now since release, I can say that it is far from a beta version anyway. I have come across one actual bona fide bug, which was the awards causing save games not to load thing, fixed in the current patch. Sure there were things that needed tweaking for game play purposes, but none of them are genuinely game breaking or you would not still be playing the game.

I will use an example of another game to contrast. F1 2010 was released with several game breaking bugs, which could not have been hard to spot. For example your tires would get punctures way way too often, and there were problems with the way the AI handled the timing of cars in qualifying. These issues were eventually fixed in a patch, but the level of effort did not seem to be there from the devs, and there was not a great level of communication on that forum. As far as I know, there is no second patch for this game, which costs close to £50 on some consoles.

So, from personal experience I have never come across anything in FM that is game breaking (this is obviously subjective, a lot of people HATE agents, and see missed CCC as huge), and SI listen to feedback and bug reporting and fix what they can. The also do a lot of tweaking of the game, to make it behave differently in line with what people want! That is just the process of improvement and listening to feedback, and is not a thing to critisize having to do. SI do a fantastic job listening to and developing their game with the people who play it, and I cannot think of many games that do that.

At least, that is my view =}

[kerching]

We are all testers if we buy the game early, we log bugs for SI to fix and by the time the third patch is out the game is playable. So if you buy the game before March each year, you get to be a tester. If you buy the game in March each year, you don't have to test the game and you still get an annual release.

The only people who are unhappy, are those who want a fully tested game in October. Which is unrealistic.

Absolutely agree. As i was scrolling down the thread i was going to put up the same post myself.

Times all a state of mind anyway. Just look at it as though it is 12 month from now to FM12.

[Bababui]

I love a good trolling thread. It does make fun reading, doesnt it?

[hugo_rune]

I love a good trolling thread. It does make fun reading, doesnt it?

Hah, I was thinking the same

Generally, the games that have zero bugs on release, are the ones that are so simple they're not worth playing!
And when development teams put together post-release enhancements, as SI and other good developers do, that's a bonus.

[Bababui]

I just got his name too.....Betty Swallows.....who has the phone number to Moes Bar?

[Martyr1777]

Look... it has nothing to do with there testing team it has nothing to do with the players/'betatesters'.

It has everything to do with not having the time needed to fix the bugs. That's why the game is released in one state and by the x.3 patch its a completely different state and usually a better one at that.

[B. Stinson]

Thanks for calling our test team 'unqualified'

i was actually referring to us, as in us the people. i think that we are the unqualified ones, especially when reading stuff on the forum

Let's cut the B.S. and quit acting naive... you were clearly calling-out SI's testing team. Underneath the cute and innocent wording, you're implying that SI's testing team is so poor that it's non-existent, and thus, they rely on their fans to test for them.

[Betty Swalls]

maybe i went too far by implying that the si testing team is nonexistant, thanks for putting words into my mouth by the way . i did find actual tv footage of the testing team discussing how much si made. here is the link, i must admit i will have to eat my words:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIoY1aZdzm0

ohh, by the way, thanks for calling me cute , you made me giggle a little and now i feel all warm inside

[Andy H]

Betty Swalls cut out the sarcastic undertones of your posts or you will receive an infraction. I am closing this before it turns into a mess of insults, ranting and people not having a clue.