Tutoring - What's the Official SI take on this?

**clonerohin1** · 16-11-2010 10:00

Is it meant to be this way?
Is it Broken?
Is it being phased out as a feature?
Is it being made inconsequential while other features are introduced?

Countless threads talking about Tutoring (or the inability to do it) in FM11 have now been opened across the SI forums now. Almost everyone who has tried it has found it unyielding and confusing to use. While in FM10 it used to be one of my personal favourites, my experience of this feature in FM11 exactly mirrors what everyoine else is saying.

1. The majority of promising young stars (wonderkids) and hot prospects are now Un-Tutorable. Lukaku, Kadlec, Rodwell are just few well-known ones that cannot be tutored in the game apart from other lesser known ones like Torric, Livaja etc (both in my team) and countless others. These are teenagers, and in order for them to realize their full potential they need Tutoring, and the much needed hidden mental trait attributes which come as a result.

2. Tutors that have been asked to tutor once (irrespective of whether they ended up doing it or not), cannot be asked again for a long time. Some have reported as long as two years since they last asked a Veteran to Tutor and are still getting the tutoring option greyed out.

I have searched the fourms for an official answer from SI, and so far have only found a meagre two tiny posts about it by Neil Brock from SI.

"It's probably due to the fact his reputation is of such a high level he cannot be tutored. Personally I think that's wrong and that players of a certain age no matter their ability should be able to be tutored but we're in disagreement here how this should be done. Cheers for taking the time to bring this up."

"Certain players cannot be tutored depending on their age and reputation - in terms of the 'conversations' not working on certain young players, I'll look into that. Thanks."

How about a real answer guys? SI, Neil, just tell us what we can do to make the most of this feature do until you fix it?

**Martyr1777** · 16-11-2010 10:11

From all the talk it certainly seems to be the intended behavior, but aside from the comment above I've not seen anything else about it from SI.

But even if it's the intended behavior its horrible. Maybe it's bugged, rep numbers not being correct or something. But imo basing it primarily on rep is the wrong way to go about it. Because if you play a lower league team you're not likely to ever recruit a youngster with a lower rep (low enough) for your vets to ever tutor anyone.

Like my MLS game, reps aren't very high for most MLS player, I mean they are all national but so what, most everyone is national at the pro level. I have players ranging in ages from 17-23 and none of my vets can tutor any of them, even though some have MASSIVE technical and mental stat differences. -THAT- is what tutoring should be based on, if a player can actually learn anything from a vet or not. Basing it on rep is like every single youngster saying 'shut-up and go away old man, you can't teach me anything because more people buy my shirt'.

Seriously it needs to be reverted back to what is was in FM10, just the success level and ppm transfers needed toned down.

**clonerohin1** · 16-11-2010 10:53

I'm really hoping it's a bug. Coz even if they intended to make said changes to the tutoring system, it clearly did not turn out right or even realistic.

Think, all the excitement of growing a promising youngster into a star, watching his value skyrocket as he became a key player in your team. This will now be marred by the fact that he is remained an unprofessional relaxed dude who would not train enough to relaize his potential and could barely manage a Backup role in your squad. Or, he continued to be an overly ambitious disloyal git who scrammed the first chance he got once his reputation grew high enough. Rodwell could become the next Cattermole or the next Patrick Viera, depending on who we could not get to tutor him.

Basing it on Rep at all is the wrong way to go about it really. The best that could be done was to have the tutor rep higher than the youngster's. No other restrictions. Let the manager choose. In fact, the system in FM10 was near perfect. Even if they had to tone it down, it would've worked. Right now tutoring is NOT a feature in this game, as far as I'm concerned.

What's the point in tutoring the obscure never-going-to-be-any-good youngsters (except for 1-2 okay ones every season) in my U18 team? I guess life's easier if you're managing a top 10 club in the top 5 leagues since you can almost just buy your way to glory (no disrespect meant), but what about all the rest of us who need all the features we can get?

**Da_Funk** · 16-11-2010 10:57

Originally Posted by clonerohin1

the system in FM10 was near perfect. Even if they had to tone it down, it would've worked. Right now tutoring is NOT a feature in this game, as far as I'm concerned.

as far as we are concerned

**private pyle** · 16-11-2010 10:59

I personally do not like the tutoring system how it is and think that it should happen naturally if an older player gets on well with a younger player rather than now whereby we choose the players manually.

**StewieGriffin** · 16-11-2010 11:19

Originally Posted by private pyle

I personally do not like the tutoring system how it is and think that it should happen naturally if an older player gets on well with a younger player rather than now whereby we choose the players manually.

I was certainly of the view that tutoring was a natural aspect rather than an enforced one. You cannot force a player to tutor someone as they might not get on. If a young player arrives at a club, there needs to be a period of settling into their new environment, getting to know their teammates, etc and then if a "Veteran" and a young player get on then the tutoring becomes available as an option.

I personally see no problem with it and think it should stay as it is. Players like Rodwell, etc maybe believe they are too big a star to be tutored and that is why they do not have it as an option.

**StormenDK** · 16-11-2010 11:20

I think it is intended by SI, to curb what I think they saw as an abuse of the system in FM10 ... people would make tutoring "factories", trying to weed out all bad traits of future stars, and making it too "easy" to get youngsters at almost full potential by the age of 24.

Currently it seems to work on reputation and CA. Both have to be higher in the tutor than in the youngster. Problem is that the tutor's rep. has to be higher by a certain amount (in my tests that seems to be 41 points in Current Rep. in the editor). But with the way that Reputation is represented in the game, how on earth are you ever going to know if your tutor's score is good enough??

Reputation level in-game seems inconsistent. I have seem one Player/Coach with 'Regional' reputation have lower rep values in the db than another player who's reputation is only 'Local'. How can I trust the in-game reputation at all?? .. also the ranges it covers are too great, so many many players will be of the same reputation in the game, but could be miles apart in the actual db values that you can't see.

**PoolFan** · 16-11-2010 11:29

Well seeing as this is another 'feature' that the playerbase is supposed to put on their mystic meg costume to understand, I have reverted to science to get the answer (until someone from SI care to make a comment)

Magic 8 ball says 'man who go bed with itchy bum,wake up with smelly finger!'

There you go, that's your answer. Now arn't you happy that SI doesn't make one of those silly user manual/guides where they explain how stuff works!

**Chochip** · 16-11-2010 11:48

From some testing I've done with FMRTE I found that a player cannot be tutored if his reputation is about 6000. This is seriously low. Any proper promising players will have reputation higher than this. That's like saying you can only tutor the crappy young players and the promising ones have to do it all by themselves with no help. Ridiculous.

Why did they have to change this? It was working perfectly fine as it was.

**Waizer** · 16-11-2010 11:48

I'm quite interested to hear the official stance on this. I've had a problem where in my first season I tried to tutor a young player with a model professional... all I ended up with was a youngster refusing to be tutored and the model pro becoming v unhappy as a result. Next season I get a really talented young striker in, do the same as last season and this time the youngster couldn't be happier to be tutored. In terms of reputation both the young players were the same, but the results were obviously v different

**PoolFan** · 16-11-2010 11:52

Originally Posted by Waizer

I'm quite interested to hear the official stance on this. I've had a problem where in my first season I tried to tutor a young player with a model professional... all I ended up with was a youngster refusing to be tutored and the model pro becoming v unhappy as a result. Next season I get a really talented young striker in, do the same as last season and this time the youngster couldn't be happier to be tutored. In terms of reputation both the young players were the same, but the results were obviously v different

You obviously should have interacted with first young player and chose the option 'Slip him some Prozac' lol

**Chochip** · 16-11-2010 11:53

I'm quite amazed at the lack of official posting activity in the last few days. They've all gone somewhere.

**Martyr1777** · 16-11-2010 11:58

Originally Posted by Chochip

I'm quite amazed at the lack of official posting activity in the last few days. They've all gone somewhere.

Yeah, dodging bullets...

There are always silly complaints on game forums, but compared to what I saw before 11's release it seems rather clear they dropped the ball pretty badly in a number of areas. Think they are starting to realize that.

**StormenDK** · 16-11-2010 11:58

Originally Posted by Waizer

I'm quite interested to hear the official stance on this. I've had a problem where in my first season I tried to tutor a young player with a model professional... all I ended up with was a youngster refusing to be tutored and the model pro becoming v unhappy as a result. Next season I get a really talented young striker in, do the same as last season and this time the youngster couldn't be happier to be tutored. In terms of reputation both the young players were the same, but the results were obviously v different

That might have to do with his personality rather than reputation or skill.

**Da_Funk** · 16-11-2010 12:02

Originally Posted by Chochip

I'm quite amazed at the lack of official posting activity in the last few days. They've all gone somewhere.

maybe working?

Originally Posted by Chochip

From some testing I've done with FMRTE I found that a player cannot be tutored if his reputation is about 6000.

can you name some player slighty up 6000?

**clonerohin1** · 16-11-2010 12:05

Originally Posted by StewieGriffin

I was certainly of the view that tutoring was a natural aspect rather than an enforced one. You cannot force a player to tutor someone as they might not get on. If a young player arrives at a club, there needs to be a period of settling into their new environment, getting to know their teammates, etc and then if a "Veteran" and a young player get on then the tutoring becomes available as an option.

I personally see no problem with it and think it should stay as it is. Players like Rodwell, etc maybe believe they are too big a star to be tutored and that is why they do not have it as an option.

Well, if you've played FM long enough, you will have noticed that while it's quite an intelligent game, the AI is not always all there. So, to leave tutoring for the AI to manage is going to be a huge risk, amybe even worse than it is now. What if the AI decides to tutor my fairly professional wonderkid by a Temperamental Aging Midifielder who 'argues with officials'. It'll ruin him.

No Sir, I would rather select tutors for the youngsters in my team myself and be responsible for it (since 'I' am the manager), than leave it to my buggy assistant manager (check my other thread...) or the game AI, which already has enough on it's plate.

Nobody is 'Forcing' a player to tutor another since they both have a choice, as you'll notice when you have a Private chat with them, to turn down your suggestion.

Also, I don't understand how you've linked being a highly reputed youngster to being too good for guidance by another Veteran reputed player. It is all about realizing potential, my friend. If Jack Rodwell is not tutored, he will remain the 'Fairly Ambitious' personality he is described as in the first season, instead of becoming the Determined Def Midfielder many might want him to be.

**private pyle** · 16-11-2010 12:36

Originally Posted by clonerohin1

Well, if you've played FM long enough, you will have noticed that while it's quite an intelligent game, the AI is not always all there. So, to leave tutoring for the AI to manage is going to be a huge risk, amybe even worse than it is now. What if the AI decides to tutor my fairly professional wonderkid by a Temperamental Aging Midifielder who 'argues with officials'. It'll ruin him.

No Sir, I would rather select tutors for the youngsters in my team myself and be responsible for it (since 'I' am the manager), than leave it to my buggy assistant manager (check my other thread...) or the game AI, which already has enough on it's plate.

Nobody is 'Forcing' a player to tutor another since they both have a choice, as you'll notice when you have a Private chat with them, to turn down your suggestion.

Also, I don't understand how you've linked being a highly reputed youngster to being too good for guidance by another Veteran reputed player. It is all about realizing potential, my friend. If Jack Rodwell is not tutored, he will remain the 'Fairly Ambitious' personality he is described as in the first season, instead of becoming the Determined Def Midfielder many might want him to be.

To be fair I dont think you should be able to change personality through tutoring I think players personalities should be left as they are when they are generated. A Gazza is and always will be a Gazza no matter whether he is tutored or not.

**Neil Brock** · 16-11-2010 13:07

It's difficult to say really, as I briefly mentioned in a previous post there were contrasting opinions within the test room about how this should work. First of all there was an issue with age - it seemed some players with more experience could be tutored in what looked unrealistic situations (for example Corluka of Spurs could be tutored by Gallas) so the age limit was lowered. Then it was decided that players of a certain CA and reputation could only be tutored by those with a reputation a certain amount higher. I personally disagreed with this, but in some instances it does make sense. If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.

**StewieGriffin** · 16-11-2010 13:19

Originally Posted by clonerohin1

Well, if you've played FM long enough, you will have noticed that while it's quite an intelligent game, the AI is not always all there. So, to leave tutoring for the AI to manage is going to be a huge risk, amybe even worse than it is now. What if the AI decides to tutor my fairly professional wonderkid by a Temperamental Aging Midifielder who 'argues with officials'. It'll ruin him.

No Sir, I would rather select tutors for the youngsters in my team myself and be responsible for it (since 'I' am the manager), than leave it to my buggy assistant manager (check my other thread...) or the game AI, which already has enough on it's plate.

Nobody is 'Forcing' a player to tutor another since they both have a choice, as you'll notice when you have a Private chat with them, to turn down your suggestion.

Also, I don't understand how you've linked being a highly reputed youngster to being too good for guidance by another Veteran reputed player. It is all about realizing potential, my friend. If Jack Rodwell is not tutored, he will remain the 'Fairly Ambitious' personality he is described as in the first season, instead of becoming the Determined Def Midfielder many might want him to be.

I have played FM long enough, I started back with CM 00/01 so I do know a thing or two. I rarely have an issue with the game, maybe because I view it as a game and not as a replica of real life.

I wasn't suggesting that the AI chooses who tutors your promising young player. In fact all I was suggesting is that the AI uses whatever formula coded by SI to determine when a player is ready for tutoring. You still have to decide if he is the right person for the job. Of course I would like to say to a player that a certain person would be good for them to learn from but if the two players don't get on then it is a wasted exercise. I like it when I get the message suggesting that Player X would benefit from Player , then having a chat, I don't have to think of every little aspect of coaching, that is why I hire coaches. May be there is a flaw with the Assistant and he is a little idiotic but I find mine to be perfectly reasonable and very rarely make any stupid suggestions. May be I'm just lucky.

My comment about Rodwell, was only that his coded personality is may be why you can't tutor him. As stated tutoring should not/can not change a players personality. It can may be make them a better player by introducing new skills and developing existing ones but you cannot expect to turn an unambitious, temperamental, although highly skilled player into a saint by having him tutored by another individual. That is what a managers man management skills are for. Do you think Rooney became less temperamental because he was being tutored by Ferdinand or Giggs or do you think Ferguson took him to the side and helped him calm down and focus on helping the team by staying on the park?

**Da_Funk** · 16-11-2010 13:22

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

It's difficult to say really, as I briefly mentioned in a previous post there were contrasting opinions within the test room about how this should work. First of all there was an issue with age - it seemed some players with more experience could be tutored in what looked unrealistic situations (for example Corluka of Spurs could be tutored by Gallas) so the age limit was lowered. Then it was decided that players of a certain CA and reputation could only be tutored by those with a reputation a certain amount higher. I personally disagreed with this, but in some instances it does make sense. If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.

Thanks for answers. I didn't find any info here about a lowering age limit....can you be more specific regarding info like this?
Can you check a young GK called Franceschin in Italian Serie B, team Triestina? He should start at 16.
Which player can be a tutor of a young one generally? Over 23?

**StewieGriffin** · 16-11-2010 13:32

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

It's difficult to say really, as I briefly mentioned in a previous post there were contrasting opinions within the test room about how this should work. First of all there was an issue with age - it seemed some players with more experience could be tutored in what looked unrealistic situations (for example Corluka of Spurs could be tutored by Gallas) so the age limit was lowered. Then it was decided that players of a certain CA and reputation could only be tutored by those with a reputation a certain amount higher. I personally disagreed with this, but in some instances it does make sense. If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.

Neil, I suppose examples that might be used are, Bebe and Javier Hernandez at Man Utd could be tutored by Nani and Rooney respectively if there is indeed a limit of who can tutor and be tutored. Both players are over 21 and would be tutored by players only 3 - 4 years older but would definitely benefit from the experience. May be the terminology needs to be revisited or added to. Work alongside might be a better description than tutor as it doesn't suggest age.

**StormenDK** · 16-11-2010 14:03

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

It's difficult to say really, as I briefly mentioned in a previous post there were contrasting opinions within the test room about how this should work. First of all there was an issue with age - it seemed some players with more experience could be tutored in what looked unrealistic situations (for example Corluka of Spurs could be tutored by Gallas) so the age limit was lowered. Then it was decided that players of a certain CA and reputation could only be tutored by those with a reputation a certain amount higher. I personally disagreed with this, but in some instances it does make sense. If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.

Example:

Bath City, Player Coach Jim Rollo (in-game rep: Regional, editor rep: 29/29/6, CA/PA 36/60) ... he can't even tutor an Obscure player with rep. values 1/1/1 (Rollo needs a 42 Current rep to tutor him). He has, according to the game, a great reputation, a great personality and hundreds of league games of experience. Yet he can't tutor even the most unknown and untalented player the game can create.

This makes absolutely no sense.

**clonerohin1** · 16-11-2010 14:06

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

It's difficult to say really, as I briefly mentioned in a previous post there were contrasting opinions within the test room about how this should work. First of all there was an issue with age - it seemed some players with more experience could be tutored in what looked unrealistic situations (for example Corluka of Spurs could be tutored by Gallas) so the age limit was lowered. Then it was decided that players of a certain CA and reputation could only be tutored by those with a reputation a certain amount higher. I personally disagreed with this, but in some instances it does make sense. If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.

On the Age issue, I agree with you. It was a bit weird when a 27 yr old was able to tutor a 25 yr old. They're pretty much the same age. Maybe in addition to lowering the maximum age at which one can be tutored (my suggestion 22-23), there should also be placed a minimum age difference like 5 yrs between the tutor and student(?).

While, I still can't decide if Reputation should play a role in this, apart from the student's being lower than the tutor's, I do have a couple suggestions regarding CA's effect on tutoring:

1. Of course, like before, the Tutor's CA should be higher than the Student's CA.

2. Maybe, there could also be this minimum difference between the Tutor and student CAs. However, it should not be very high (like it probably is right now), because a majority of promising wonderkids already come with high Reps without the CA to match but with plenty of potential.

3. One solution to this could be - Instead of using just CA as a criteria, why not use ability difference (PA - CA) as a measure.[Let's call this Potential]
So, now this potential in addition to the age factor mentioned above could give a measure of the Maturity of a player. All players below a certain Maturity threshold value should be allowed to be tutored.

I don't know how much sense that makes to you, or if you guys have already discussed it, but this is one possible solution I think.

EDIT: As far as specific possible Tutor-Student example go, I think they're of use only to people managing Top clubs. It does not apply too well to managers like me who choose to manage Grasshopper Club Zurich in the Swiss Super League, so...

**StormenDK** · 16-11-2010 14:27

I think maybe tutoring should not be restricted on CA and Rep. (age is fine .... and I am fine with 21 being the max. age of the tutee). Let the manager fix up anyone they want, but use the difference in Rep and CA in the calculations of the effects of the tutoring.

The problem with CA is that it tends to fade as players get into the age range where they can be good tutors. So once he hits 35 he suddenly becomes useless as a tutor?? ... I would think that even though your 18-year old might have better attributes that the old geezer, doesn't mean that he in anyway can't learn from the guy who have played 400 league games more than him, has a calm personality and who has 3 PPMs to teach. Since tutoring only affects Determination stat of the ones that counts towards CA (or does DET count against CA??), I fail too see how Current Ability should affect a tutoring relationship. In a bit of an extreme comparison, you could say that it is like if only coaches who are better footballers can ever teach a football player anything?? ... some coaches have never even played professionally themselves.

Reputation seems off too ... if it means that a World-classer won't listen to a Local reputation tutor, then fine. But don't restrict me in my selection of tutor ... either let the youth reject my proprosed tutor (depending on his personality and his relationship with me and/or the tutor), or let the tutoring continue (if the both accept) but at a much less chance of the youngster gaining much from the tutor.

**private pyle** · 16-11-2010 15:12

I just asked one of my senior players fairly determined with a determination of 16 to tutor a player that is balanced with a determination of 8 and the young player has stated that he doesnt want to and is now unhappy with me because of my choice of tutor.

Is it better to just wait for the backroom advice screen to let the coaches give advice on who would be a good tutor for my youth players or is there a list somewhere on which personalities match?

**Chochip** · 16-11-2010 16:00

I can understand that they are trying to make tutoring more realistic and less far fetched, but as of right now the current restrictions are too strict and pretty much all promising youngsters/wonderkids cannot be tutored unless you possess some super worldclass rep player.

Just because a young player has a higher than usual CA it doesn't mean he doesn't need the experience of an older player.

Please change this to be like before, or at least loosen the rules a lot more.

You may think you are doing the right thing but at the end of the day, none of us like what you've done to it.

**Neil Brock** · 16-11-2010 17:49

As said we are most definitely looking into this, cheers.

**nev147** · 16-11-2010 18:03

In my game the only player that can give a tutor is the ones in the under 19's - all my young players in the first team are just not an option in the drop down list.

Please add this to the long list of things to sort out please SI.

**clonerohin1** · 16-11-2010 18:14

Originally Posted by StewieGriffin

I have played FM long enough, I started back with CM 00/01 so I do know a thing or two. I rarely have an issue with the game, maybe because I view it as a game and not as a replica of real life.

I wasn't suggesting that the AI chooses who tutors your promising young player. In fact all I was suggesting is that the AI uses whatever formula coded by SI to determine when a player is ready for tutoring. You still have to decide if he is the right person for the job. Of course I would like to say to a player that a certain person would be good for them to learn from but if the two players don't get on then it is a wasted exercise. I like it when I get the message suggesting that Player X would benefit from Player , then having a chat, I don't have to think of every little aspect of coaching, that is why I hire coaches. May be there is a flaw with the Assistant and he is a little idiotic but I find mine to be perfectly reasonable and very rarely make any stupid suggestions. May be I'm just lucky.

My comment about Rodwell, was only that his coded personality is may be why you can't tutor him. As stated tutoring should not/can not change a players personality. It can may be make them a better player by introducing new skills and developing existing ones but you cannot expect to turn an unambitious, temperamental, although highly skilled player into a saint by having him tutored by another individual. That is what a managers man management skills are for. Do you think Rooney became less temperamental because he was being tutored by Ferdinand or Giggs or do you think Ferguson took him to the side and helped him calm down and focus on helping the team by staying on the park?

What you're suggesting about the coaches letting you know that a player is ready to be tutored is already a feature in the game, so... that argument's going nowhere. Although, I do agree that the frequency of such messages could be increased. I'm glad you've got a good Asst Mgr, however, anyone who's playing in a second tier league or managing a team with limited resources would not have one and so the Asst Mgr will be a perpetual annoyance with all his stupid ideas about who should be tutored by who.

Where exactly is it stated that tutoring cannot change personality? I'd really like to know seeing as every now 'n then I've seen players personalities change after being tutored in FM10. Noone is trying to turn an axe murderer into a saint, but I would certainly hope to acheive Unsporting - > Realist, or , Perfectionist -> Model Professional.
If you don't know what I'm talking about then see this thread about personalities in FM...

Anyways, this is not what I'm here to argue for. We already have a tutoring system in place, apparently. The only problem with it is how limited choices are being allowed to be tutored, and a Possible Bug with a Player not being allowed to tutor again once he's been asked to once.

**clonerohin1** · 16-11-2010 18:17

Originally Posted by Chochip

I can understand that they are trying to make tutoring more realistic and less far fetched, but as of right now the current restrictions are too strict and pretty much all promising youngsters/wonderkids cannot be tutored unless you possess some super worldclass rep player.

Just because a young player has a higher than usual CA it doesn't mean he doesn't need the experience of an older player.

Please change this to be like before, or at least loosen the rules a lot more.

You may think you are doing the right thing but at the end of the day, none of us like what you've done to it.

Very well written. Sums up almost the whole thread... Cheers!

**Deejaydoubleyou** · 16-11-2010 18:22

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.

Interpreted... Can you lot that don't get paid but love the game so much do all our testing for us, we can't be bothered to get it right before we let you have the game.

**brt** · 16-11-2010 19:34

In FM 2011 I can ask, let's say, Puyol to tutor Muniesa. But I cannot tell Muniesa to imitate Puyol. It was possible in previous versions. Why isn't it available in FM11? I think it would be very useful.

**StormenDK** · 16-11-2010 20:12

In FM10 you asked the youngster to learn from a tutor ... in FM11 you ask a tutor to teach a youngster. You were never able to do both. The end result is the same though.

**Martyr1777** · 16-11-2010 20:21

Originally Posted by Deejaydoubleyou

Interpreted... Can you lot that don't get paid but love the game so much do all our testing for us, we can't be bothered to get it right before we let you have the game.

lol, love that comment...

It's funny how quickly everyone jumps on board with that concept too.

**7. Shevchenko** · 16-11-2010 20:30

One thing that bugs me - say I want Dani Pacheco tutored by a senior member of the squad. Whether that be Torres, Kuyt or Gerrard... it doesn't matter to me. I have to cycle through the players until I find one that can tutor him.

I think the old style of tutoring used to be easier, where you'd select a player for the youngster to learn from rather than the other way around.

**brt** · 16-11-2010 20:38

7. Shevchenko,
I totally agree with you.

**clonerohin1** · 16-11-2010 20:47

Originally Posted by 7. Shevchenko

One thing that bugs me - say I want Dani Pacheco tutored by a senior member of the squad. Whether that be Torres, Kuyt or Gerrard... it doesn't matter to me. I have to cycle through the players until I find one that can tutor him.

I think the old style of tutoring used to be easier, where you'd select a player for the youngster to learn from rather than the other way around.

Come to think of it, you're spot on. I totally agree.

**BossAsianMafia** · 17-11-2010 01:13

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

It's difficult to say really, as I briefly mentioned in a previous post there were contrasting opinions within the test room about how this should work. First of all there was an issue with age - it seemed some players with more experience could be tutored in what looked unrealistic situations (for example Corluka of Spurs could be tutored by Gallas) so the age limit was lowered. Then it was decided that players of a certain CA and reputation could only be tutored by those with a reputation a certain amount higher. I personally disagreed with this, but in some instances it does make sense. If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.

E.g. I can't get De Gea to be tutored by van der Sar and Khondogbia to be tutored by Hargreaves/Fletcher.
I hope SI does not severely curtailed a brilliant feature for isolated cases of unrealism.
After all it's a game and tutoring is fun as it allows for some level of user control over randomly generated personalities of newgens.

**Sunlock** · 17-11-2010 02:23

Originally Posted by clonerohin1

Jack Rodwell is not tutored, he will remain the 'Fairly Ambitious' personality he is described as in the first season, instead of becoming the Determined Def Midfielder many might want him to be.

Pretty sure you are going wrong there, it will change with his reputation.

**Chochip** · 17-11-2010 06:06

Originally Posted by Sunlock

Pretty sure you are going wrong there, it will change with his reputation.

Ambition does not improve with time without tutoring.
Determination does not improve without tutoring, unless they perform badly and you discipline them - which means this relies on bad form for increase in attributes..like wth?

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

As said we are most definitely looking into this, cheers.

Cheers for your input. At least now we don't feel like we are talking to a brick wall lol

**Da_Funk** · 17-11-2010 08:51

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

As said we are most definitely looking into this, cheers.

Originally Posted by Chochip

Cheers for your input. At least now we don't feel like we are talking to a brick wall lol

yes definitely, the important is that it's under review.
what I don't understand is: tutoring as it is now, is it like it was supposed to be or is it somehow broken/not working?

**clonerohin1** · 17-11-2010 09:29

Originally Posted by Sunlock

Pretty sure you are going wrong there, it will change with his reputation.

I'm absolutely sure, you're wrong about this one mate.

Player personalities have little to do with reputation. They are governed by a combination of hidden attributes for each player, along with Determination.

Updated Personality types list for FM10.3, based on Lyssien's research made for an earlier version of FM:

Positive Personality types:

Ambitious: Ambition = 16-19 & Loyalty < 10.
Born Leader: Influence = 20 & Determination = 20. Age needs to be 23+
Determined: Determination = 18-19 & Ambition >9.
Driven: Determination = 20 & Ambition > 9.
Fairly Ambitious: (Ambition = 15) or (Ambition = 16-20 & Loyalty >9).
Fairly Professional: (Professionalism = 15-17) or (Professionalism = 18-20 & Temperament < 10).
Iron Willed: Pressure = 20 & Determination > 14.
Jovial: Pressure > 14 & Temperament > 9 & Professionalism < 11
Leader: (Influence = 19) or (Influence = 20 & Determination < 20).
Light-Hearted: Sportsmanship > 14 & Pressure > 14 & Determination > 9 & Temperament > 9.
Model Citizen: Determination > 17 & Ambition > 17 & Loyalty > 17 & Pressure > 17 & Professionalism > 17 & Temperament > 17 & Sportsmanship > 17.
Model Professional: Professionalism = 20 & Temperament > 9.
Professional: Professionalism = 18-19 & Temperament > 9.
Perfectionist: Ambition > 17 & Professionalism > 17 & Determination > 17 & Temperament < 10
Resilient: Pressure = 17-19 & Determination > 14.
Resolute: Determination = 15-17 & Professionalism = 15-17.
Spirited: Pressure > 14 & Professionalism = 11-17 & Temperament > 9.
Very Ambitious: Ambition = 20 & Loyalty < 10.

Negative Personality types:

Casual: Professionalism = 2-4 & Determination < 10.
Devoted: Loyalty = 20 & Ambition = 6-7 & 'Likes team' rating 100+
Easily Discouraged: Determination = 1 & Ambition < 10
Low Determination: Determination = 2-5 & Ambition < 10
Low Self-Belief: Pressure = 2-3 & Determination < 10.
Loyal: Loyalty = 18-19 & Ambition = 6-7
Slack: Professionalism = 1 & Determination < 10.
Spineless: Pressure = 1 & Determination < 10.
Temperamental: Temperament = 1-4.
Unambitious: Ambition < 6 & Loyalty > 10
Unsporting: Sportsmanship = 1 & Determination > 10
Very Loyal: Loyal = 20 & Ambition = 6-7

Neutral Personality types:

Balanced: none of the rest
Fairly Determined: (Determination = 15-17) or (Determination = 18-20 & Ambition < 10).
Fairly Loyal: (Loyalty = 15-17) or (Loyalty = 18-20 & Ambition = 8-14).
Fairly Sporting: Sportsmanship = 15-17.
Honest: Sportsmanship = 20 & Determination < 10
Realist: Sportsmanship = 2-4 & Determination > 10
Sporting: Sportsmanship = 18-19 & Determination < 10

Often, a player may be eligible to be described by more than one personality descriptions. In this case, you are still going to see only one description. As a rule, Professional> Determined> Realist> Resilient> Light-Hearted> Spirited> Resolute> Jovial. What is to the lft, takes precedence. This means that if a player is both Realist and Spirited, in the game he is going to be described as "Realist".

Media Handling type

As part of the process, I wanted to find out if there was any way to guess the other hidden stats of the players, besides the one or two normally shown through the Personality Type. I found that the Media Handling Type can be used also, though it doesn't always tell you all you need to know. But after extensively checking various types in Genie Scout, I think I have found the stats that govern each of the Media Types:

Volatile: Temperament 3-6
Reserved: Controversy < 5 & Professionalism > 14 & Temperament > 6
Unflappable: Pressure > 14 & Temperament > 14
Evasive: Pressure > 14 & Professionalism > 14 & Controversy < 15
Short-tempered: Temperament < 3
Confrontational: Sportsmanship < 8 & Temperament < 8
Outspoken: Controversy > 14
Media-Friendly: Controversy < 15
Level-Headed: Controversy < 15 & Loyalty > 10 & Temperament > 6 & (Sportmanship > 11 or Professionalism > 12)

So it seems that you would want 'Reserved', 'Unflappable' and 'Evasive' mainly, as they have good Professionalism scores. 'Level-headed' is ok too as it means most scores are at least average. 'Media-friendly' seems to be a bit like 'Balanced' Personality type, in that all you know is that Controversy is not too high. But other stats could still be low.

**Chochip** · 17-11-2010 09:49

You bring up a separate point that I've been trying to get across for a while now. lol
What exactly is the reason for making these complicated formula for a one line personality description? Are we meant to memorise these things or are we just not even meant to take notice of this?

It would be SO much better if the personality section was a bit fleshed out to properly explain all parts that make up the personality. And the description should become more and more detailed and accurate as you spend more time with them.
I mean, day in and day out you spend time with your players for like 5 years and all you know about their personality is "fairly determined. unflappable"

**StormenDK** · 17-11-2010 12:12

Originally Posted by Chochip

You bring up a separate point that I've been trying to get across for a while now. lol
What exactly is the reason for making these complicated formula for a one line personality description? Are we meant to memorise these things or are we just not even meant to take notice of this?

It would be SO much better if the personality section was a bit fleshed out to properly explain all parts that make up the personality. And the description should become more and more detailed and accurate as you spend more time with them.
I mean, day in and day out you spend time with your players for like 5 years and all you know about their personality is "fairly determined. unflappable"

I agree totally about needed better representation of the Hidden attributes. Having one Personality and 1-3 Media Handling Types don't always give you any indication of what the player is. Balanced/Media-Friendly just says that he does not hit any of the extremes, but it gives you absolutely NO indication of whether his Ambition score is 6 or 14 ... and that is a mighty big gap.

Also the list above (which seems to have been taken from my FM10 tutoring thread

) is the work of forumites countless hours of editor testing to figure that out ... again one important area that SI has been less than helpful in understanding.

**clonerohin1** · 17-11-2010 15:00

Originally Posted by StormenDK

Originally Posted by Chochip

You bring up a separate point that I've been trying to get across for a while now. lol
What exactly is the reason for making these complicated formula for a one line personality description? Are we meant to memorise these things or are we just not even meant to take notice of this?

It would be SO much better if the personality section was a bit fleshed out to properly explain all parts that make up the personality. And the description should become more and more detailed and accurate as you spend more time with them.
I mean, day in and day out you spend time with your players for like 5 years and all you know about their personality is "fairly determined. unflappable"

I agree totally about needed better representation of the Hidden attributes. Having one Personality and 1-3 Media Handling Types don't always give you any indication of what the player is. Balanced/Media-Friendly just says that he does not hit any of the extremes, but it gives you absolutely NO indication of whether his Ambition score is 6 or 14 ... and that is a mighty big gap.

Also the list above (which seems to have been taken from my FM10 tutoring thread

) is the work of forumites countless hours of editor testing to figure that out ... again one important area that SI has been less than helpful in understanding.

Yes, it's a separate point totally, but makes sense nonetheless. Most people on the forum would not take the pains to find this list, and even less would actually care to read through the whole thing. While the current setup isn't really a disaster, a major overhaul is needed from SI in terms of their User Interface and interpretation of these 'Hidden Attributes'.

@StormenDK: Well, first of all thanks for making the list. I posted a link to your thread in one of my earlier posts on this thread itself, but people have a habit of posting without reading first, so had to post the material right here for them to read. Hope you don't mind. Cheers!

**StormenDK** · 17-11-2010 18:51

Originally Posted by clonerohin1

Yes, it's a separate point totally, but makes sense nonetheless. Most people on the forum would not take the pains to find this list, and even less would actually care to read through the whole thing. While the current setup isn't really a disaster, a major overhaul is needed from SI in terms of their User Interface and interpretation of these 'Hidden Attributes'.

@StormenDK: Well, first of all thanks for making the list. I posted a link to your thread in one of my earlier posts on this thread itself, but people have a habit of posting without reading first, so had to post the material right here for them to read. Hope you don't mind. Cheers!

No problem ... just thought it looked mighty familiar

**x42bn6** · 17-11-2010 19:06

Originally Posted by Chochip

You bring up a separate point that I've been trying to get across for a while now. lol
What exactly is the reason for making these complicated formula for a one line personality description? Are we meant to memorise these things or are we just not even meant to take notice of this?

It would be SO much better if the personality section was a bit fleshed out to properly explain all parts that make up the personality. And the description should become more and more detailed and accurate as you spend more time with them.
I mean, day in and day out you spend time with your players for like 5 years and all you know about their personality is "fairly determined. unflappable"

I suggested a few weeks ago that the game should have "more personality" - so you might describe Rooney as "Determined, ambitious, controversial and driven".

I also suggested we go one further and not make personality attributes hidden. Does Fergie, for example, honestly not know his players' personalities inside-out? He should know which players are slightly more ambitious than others, for example - but if these players are merely "fairly ambitious", that doesn't help. Do we really need to hide players' personalities - seriously? There's nothing mysterious or unknown about a player's personality (at least for extreme cases - i.e. attribute < 5 or attribute > 15) - so do we really need to hide it? Otherwise you may as well think your players are coming into training with black curtains around their faces so you can't see what their personalities are like.

**StormenDK** · 17-11-2010 19:35

Originally Posted by x42bn6

I suggested a few weeks ago that the game should have "more personality" - so you might describe Rooney as "Determined, ambitious, controversial and driven".

I also suggested we go one further and not make personality attributes hidden. Does Fergie, for example, honestly not know his players' personalities inside-out? He should know which players are slightly more ambitious than others, for example - but if these players are merely "fairly ambitious", that doesn't help. Do we really need to hide players' personalities - seriously? There's nothing mysterious or unknown about a player's personality (at least for extreme cases - i.e. attribute < 5 or attribute > 15) - so do we really need to hide it? Otherwise you may as well think your players are coming into training with black curtains around their faces so you can't see what their personalities are like.

Excatly ... and you could make it so the personalities are vague for some unknown player you signed on a whim from the Belgium 3rd. division .. and as he plays and you get more familiar with him, his "hidden" personalities starts to show. That way you could still scout him, and think, heeyy "Ambitious" .. good I'll hire him .. and then later find out that his Sportsmanship sucks, his Pressure is rock-bottom, but at least he is highly controversial

I mean without scouting, the personality is hidden ... but his media handling types are fully shown ... so it is hard consistent right now.

**SSGTroyer** · 17-11-2010 19:54

Originally Posted by x42bn6

...Does Fergie, for example, honestly not know his players' personalities inside-out? He should know which players are slightly more ambitious than others, for example - but if these players are merely "fairly ambitious", that doesn't help...

From day one, either when he came to the club or the player arrives...No, he didn't. He has(d) to get to know each one, in turn. Only over time does he get to know them, only through day-to-day interaction does he learn what motivates and drives them to succeed.

Which is precisely what FM wants us to do. Thing is, FM is a pretty poor simulator of inter-personal relationships. SI's trying to make it better, but will never achieve the level of intimacy possible between a real manager and his players. So...a few "cheats" are needed.

I hear you, though. Saying we need more "cheats" than we're getting. I don't entirely disagree, just that maybe they need to be brought out slowly, depending on how many times we single them out in TeamTalks or Chat them up. OTOH, that's what the notebook is for. Did Striker Joe become nervous when you "Disappointed" him for his 5.8 first-half? Put it in your Notes (SI might say), so you know to "Encourage" him on another day...

**x42bn6** · 17-11-2010 22:11

Originally Posted by SSGTroyer

From day one, either when he came to the club or the player arrives...No, he didn't. He has(d) to get to know each one, in turn. Only over time does he get to know them, only through day-to-day interaction does he learn what motivates and drives them to succeed.

Which is precisely what FM wants us to do. Thing is, FM is a pretty poor simulator of inter-personal relationships. SI's trying to make it better, but will never achieve the level of intimacy possible between a real manager and his players. So...a few "cheats" are needed.

That has little to do with personality, though. Over time, we gain very little knowledge of a player's personality except vague hints (i.e. how he reacts to a high training workload).

I agree a manager will only know a player better over time, but a player's personality is reduced to one or two words and doesn't change much (unless tutored and this is successful).

Originally Posted by SSGTroyer

I hear you, though. Saying we need more "cheats" than we're getting. I don't entirely disagree, just that maybe they need to be brought out slowly, depending on how many times we single them out in TeamTalks or Chat them up. OTOH, that's what the notebook is for. Did Striker Joe become nervous when you "Disappointed" him for his 5.8 first-half? Put it in your Notes (SI might say), so you know to "Encourage" him on another day...

Again, less to do with personality, this.

----

My pet peeve has to be players who have a personality of (Fairly/Very) determined - I can bloody see this from their attributes!

**bigdanio** · 18-11-2010 12:39

I just think it's more realistic now.

On the previous game you could have players up to 25 being tutored by someone just 1 year older.

I even had 24 yr olds tutored by 24 yr olds.

The situation we have now whereby senior players, regardless of age, can only tutor youth players is far more realistic.

Giggs wouldn't tutor Bale, they might have a chat and trade advice but he certainly wouldn't take him under his wing.

Annoying for development, but players are normally developed before making the first team.

**x42bn6** · 18-11-2010 12:43

Originally Posted by bigdanio

Giggs wouldn't tutor Bale, they might have a chat and trade advice but he certainly wouldn't take him under his wing.

Why wouldn't Wales's most-promising left-sided player want to be mentored from the best left-sided player Wales has ever seen, and one of the best left-sided players ever seen in the modern era?

**Da_Funk** · 18-11-2010 12:45

Originally Posted by bigdanio

I even had 24 yr olds tutored by 24 yr olds.

I remember limit for tutee in old FM is 23 yr olds. sounds strange to me. Maybe he was 23, you linked him to a tutor and then tutoring was in progress after birthday.

**clonerohin1** · 18-11-2010 12:58

Originally Posted by bigdanio

I just think it's more realistic now.

On the previous game you could have players up to 25 being tutored by someone just 1 year older.

I even had 24 yr olds tutored by 24 yr olds.

The situation we have now whereby senior players, regardless of age, can only tutor youth players is far more realistic.

Giggs wouldn't tutor Bale, they might have a chat and trade advice but he certainly wouldn't take him under his wing.

Annoying for development, but players are normally developed before making the first team.

What an example!

Not everyone's going ahead and buying Bale - Incidentally the hottest young talent in all of Europe right now!! How about the rest of the lot?

I wanna get a 33 yr old CAM with Continental reputation named Arnold Bruggink to tutor a 22 yr old Nationally reputed CAM called Tomas Horava. If the current system is right then why can't I do that?

Moreover, why wouldn't Bale want that opportunity?! I know Giggs is not lacking in reputation, and I'm sure noone can question his ability.

**Sarmatian** · 18-11-2010 14:29

Yeah, giving the manager a bit more info about each of the hidden stats could be useful, even it is "vagueish".

Let's say Poor professionalism if it's 1-7, Decent if it's 8-13 and Good if it's 14-20.

At least let us know this after he spends more than a year in our squad. Leave scout reports as is. Scouts make mistakes, managers buy wrong players all the time, but don't keep a player a mystery to me if I coached him for several seasons...

**SSGTroyer** · 18-11-2010 14:42

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Yeah, giving the manager a bit more info about each of the hidden stats could be useful, even it is "vagueish".

Let's say Poor professionalism if it's 1-7, Decent if it's 8-13 and Good if it's 14-20.

At least let us know this after he spends more than a year in our squad. Leave scout reports as is. Scouts make mistakes, managers buy wrong players all the time, but don't keep a player a mystery to me if I coached him for several seasons...

If you've coached him for several seasons, you should know him well enough for game terms, anyway. Without the visual aids. If you need such, take Notes...

**StormenDK** · 18-11-2010 15:03

Originally Posted by SSGTroyer

If you've coached him for several seasons, you should know him well enough for game terms, anyway. Without the visual aids. If you need such, take Notes...

Yes, lets hide all the stats on players .. that way you can sit and look at the games, and write down notes on whether your winger is "sort-of fast" or "really really fast" .. and whether his skills at corners "suck" or "totally rocks". How would we ever know if a players has 14 or 15 in Pace?? .. or if his Composure is 5 or 7.

It is a game, not real life ... and since the hidden stats are pretty important, and you (often) have very little indication of them, it becomes a chore having to write notes for your 40+ players, while having to watch for any kind of signs during the game of what their stats MIGHT be. Some of us don't really find that enjoyable.

**clonerohin1** · 18-11-2010 15:14

Originally Posted by StormenDK

Yes, lets hide all the stats on players .. that way you can sit and look at the games, and write down notes on whether your winger is "sort-of fast" or "really really fast" .. and whether his skills at corners "suck" or "totally rocks". How would we ever know if a players has 14 or 15 in Pace?? .. or if his Composure is 5 or 7.

It is a game, not real life ... and since the hidden stats are pretty important, and you (often) have very little indication of them, it becomes a chore having to write notes for your 40+ players, while having to watch for any kind of signs during the game of what their stats MIGHT be. Some of us don't really find that enjoyable.

+1

**Neil Brock** · 18-11-2010 15:27

Okay as said this'll be changed for the next patch, cheers for all your comments.

**JiggyDempsey** · 18-11-2010 15:37

I'd like SI to explain the options that we suggest to the tutor and tutee. That seems completely random.

I've been testing this and in one run the tutee rejected at first then went along with the process once I made a guess between 3 more options. 2nd run, choosing the same first option on the tutor, the tutee jumps at the opportunity to learn from the player.

The official manual has nothing of importance on the issue of tutoring, so some explanations from SI would help.

**alienpale** · 18-11-2010 15:46

Nice to know Tutoring system will be changed in next patch...

But please let us know answer of the question JiggyDempsey asked above.. really wanna know too

Regards

**clonerohin1** · 18-11-2010 16:03

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

Okay as said this'll be changed for the next patch, cheers for all your comments.

Fantastic! Neil Brock, you're the man!

I wish I could ask you to tutor Ian Jarvis from the EA Fifa 11 team. You could pass on some of your traits and preferred moves to him, god knows he needs some.

**StormenDK** · 18-11-2010 16:17

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

Okay as said this'll be changed for the next patch, cheers for all your comments.

Excellent ... looking forward to that. And to add to what Jiggy said ..

PLEASE make sure to describe HOW you changed it, so we don't have to spend hours figuring it out (again).

**Sarmatian** · 18-11-2010 17:28

Originally Posted by StormenDK

Yes, lets hide all the stats on players .. that way you can sit and look at the games, and write down notes on whether your winger is "sort-of fast" or "really really fast" .. and whether his skills at corners "suck" or "totally rocks". How would we ever know if a players has 14 or 15 in Pace?? .. or if his Composure is 5 or 7.

It is a game, not real life ... and since the hidden stats are pretty important, and you (often) have very little indication of them, it becomes a chore having to write notes for your 40+ players, while having to watch for any kind of signs during the game of what their stats MIGHT be. Some of us don't really find that enjoyable.

Thank you for saving me the trouble of writing something similar

**Chochip** · 19-11-2010 01:02

Originally Posted by StormenDK

Yes, lets hide all the stats on players .. that way you can sit and look at the games, and write down notes on whether your winger is "sort-of fast" or "really really fast" .. and whether his skills at corners "suck" or "totally rocks". How would we ever know if a players has 14 or 15 in Pace?? .. or if his Composure is 5 or 7.

It is a game, not real life ... and since the hidden stats are pretty important, and you (often) have very little indication of them, it becomes a chore having to write notes for your 40+ players, while having to watch for any kind of signs during the game of what their stats MIGHT be. Some of us don't really find that enjoyable.

Exactly my point of view too.
It's become very off topic, but I would LOVE a 'display hidden attributes' option.

**John Smith** · 19-11-2010 05:35

Originally Posted by bigdanio

Giggs wouldn't tutor Bale, they might have a chat and trade advice but he certainly wouldn't take him under his wing.

Ronaldinho - Messi?
Blanc - Ferdinand?

There's a lot that even wonderkids can learn from more experienced players who have seen it, done it for years.

**John Smith** · 19-11-2010 06:10

Originally Posted by Chochip

Exactly my point of view too.
It's become very off topic, but I would LOVE a 'display hidden attributes' option.

Definitely, it's almost impossible to find out who are the good tutors with better mental attributes than the tutees without the aid of an editor. They need to be much more obvious even if they are to remain hidden. Right now it's pretty much a hit or miss affair.

Case in point: Is Player A a good tutor for Player B?

Player A

Player B

**Martyr1777** · 19-11-2010 06:37

I would agree that it would be nice to have a little more insight into some aspects of players, but I don't want to be able to see everything plainly like their playing stats. If you know ever detail about a player the mystery of 'should I sign this guy or the other one' is gone and you lose half the point of a management sim.

Edit: I just want tutoring to work... don't so much care about having the good and bad tutors spelled out for me.

**Sarmatian** · 19-11-2010 08:23

Originally Posted by John Smith

Definitely, it's almost impossible to find out who are the good tutors with better mental attributes than the tutees without the aid of an editor. They need to be much more obvious even if they are to remain hidden. Right now it's pretty much a hit or miss affair.

Case in point: Is Player A a good tutor for Player B?

Player A

Player B

In this case, no, because spirited is good proffessionalism + good pressure.

**StormenDK** · 19-11-2010 09:00

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

In this case, no, because spirited is good proffessionalism + good pressure.

I would say that depends

... Player A, probably have better Professionalism than B, and who knows what Pressure score A has. So I guess it can be interesting to try, as A has very low Controversy as well. But what about Sportsmanship and Ambition in the two?? .. there is no indication of that here at all ... so would B gain or lose points in those by being tutored by A??

You would have to weigh the potential gains against the potential loss of mental stats.

**Sarmatian** · 19-11-2010 10:15

You're right, there's not enough information, but based on this limited info, I wouldn't do it, but then again, I'm a sucker for players that can handle pressure

**Da_Funk** · 19-11-2010 13:08

Originally Posted by Chochip

It's become very off topic, but I would LOVE a 'display hidden attributes' option.

the only way to do it is through skin editor. and it is possibile.
however I agree with the fact the we need more info (not necessary the exact values)

**Ellis_D** · 23-01-2011 18:49

Am I the only person who thinks tutoring shouldn't even be in the game?

I honestly just think it is daft and unrealistic, and I wish the option wasn't there.

Quite apart from being sick of youngsters refusing to do it, I am also sick of players falling out and becoming enemies.

But that is not all, it's just in real life players don't tutor each other. Can you honestly imagine Alex Ferguson calling Chris Smalling and Rio Ferdinand into his office and saying, "Right Chris, I want you to learn from Rio. I want him to teach you how to defend better, and how to cope with the mental aspects of the game. He can teach you how to be more determined, more hard working. If you listen to Rio you will become stronger mentally, a better footballer, and have more of a chance of playing for England."

I know for a fact this doesn't happen. This is the manager's job, plus that of his assistant and coaches, not senior players. This is taught in training, where yes, they can watch older players train, but they don't spend extra time with the senior players in order to become more determined, or better leaders.

Completely unrealistic.

**7. Shevchenko** · 23-01-2011 20:01

I disagree, it does happen.

**Ellis_D** · 23-01-2011 23:38

If it does happen it happens in very rare cases (I bet no-one can actually name any/many), and not nearly enough for it to be a feature in this game. Certainly not to the point where, let's face it, you want all yor young players to be being tutored by a senior player, as is the case in FM. As I said, completely unrealistic.

**LFCMatt7** · 24-01-2011 00:06

The main gripe I have with tutoring is the PPM's that get passed on, when playing as Liverpool every midfielder I get tutored by Gerrard runs around like superman shooting from obscene ranges etc. If I'm just being stupid and there is actually a turoring option that doesn't pass on PPM's then I'd like to know, thanks

**Edinton** · 24-01-2011 00:29

It would be an amazing feature (for the future I'm sure) if it could somehow become a natural 'connection' between players, so we're advised that a senior player has taken a youngster under his wing or the youngster is inspired by the example set by the senior pro and adapts his game/approach accordingly.

**phnompenhandy** · 24-01-2011 06:32

Yesterday I read that McEachran's getting tutored by Lampard (IRL). it's a good feature; it just doesn't flippin' work. Was okay in FM10.3; can't think why they loused it up.

**Novox** · 24-01-2011 06:39

Originally Posted by Neil Brock

It's difficult to say really, as I briefly mentioned in a previous post there were contrasting opinions within the test room about how this should work. First of all there was an issue with age - it seemed some players with more experience could be tutored in what looked unrealistic situations (for example Corluka of Spurs could be tutored by Gallas) so the age limit was lowered. Then it was decided that players of a certain CA and reputation could only be tutored by those with a reputation a certain amount higher. I personally disagreed with this, but in some instances it does make sense. If you can find examples of players who should be tutored (Say for example Wilshere by Fabregas) and let us know then we can look into getting this changed if it is deemed necessary. Cheers.

I think that how the system is set up right now is great in theory! There is no way a wonderkid who thinks he's all that let himself get "tutored" by someone with a low reputation.

The issue is that in practice, older players lose reputation A LOT in game.
i.e. players like Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo, Riquelme etc. all still have incredible reputations in real life, simply because of their past. Everyone will always remember players of that caliber and would be thrilled to be tutored by them unless they have contradicting beliefs or maybe simple rivalries. Unfortunately in the game, their reputation is tiny in comparison which restricts them for being able to tutor anyone.

I think this is where the issue arises, since it makes sense in real life but when it gets translated into the engine, it falls apart. The solution would be to create a new reputation level that, well, never decreases but increases really slowly throughout a players career. So that players like Roberto Carlos will reach a high level and will always be "remembered" and youngster will look up to him, no matter his current ability or current reputation.

On the age aspect, its very hard to debate this on, but I think it should be implemented slightly differently than it is currently.
My opinion:
1)Players under the age of 23 should be capable of being tutored.
2)Players inbetween 23 and 25 should be capable of being tutored BUT will generally return with a negative response to the suggestion, unless a player that is their idol is suggested.
3)Players of age 23 with under 6500 should apply to 1), players with over that should apply to 2).

Thats just my interpretation and maybe i've gone too far in depth.

**cruyff14** · 24-01-2011 07:10

Originally Posted by Ellis_D

Am I the only person who thinks tutoring shouldn't even be in the game?

I honestly just think it is daft and unrealistic, and I wish the option wasn't there.

Quite apart from being sick of youngsters refusing to do it, I am also sick of players falling out and becoming enemies.

But that is not all, it's just in real life players don't tutor each other. Can you honestly imagine Alex Ferguson calling Chris Smalling and Rio Ferdinand into his office and saying, "Right Chris, I want you to learn from Rio. I want him to teach you how to defend better, and how to cope with the mental aspects of the game. He can teach you how to be more determined, more hard working. If you listen to Rio you will become stronger mentally, a better footballer, and have more of a chance of playing for England."

I know for a fact this doesn't happen. This is the manager's job, plus that of his assistant and coaches, not senior players. This is taught in training, where yes, they can watch older players train, but they don't spend extra time with the senior players in order to become more determined, or better leaders.

Completely unrealistic.

I doubt this very much Ferguson is always saying how important his senior players are in the development of the younger players at the club, teaching them how to live on and off the field. Also having someone senior to yourself to shadow is no different to doing an apprenticeship, something that has been in effect in football and the working world for a very long time.

I also think you choose a wrong example with Smalling and Rio considering Fergie bought him with the hope he will become Ferdinand's successor. And the fact there has been comparisons drawn between the two players by pundits,players,coaches as well as the manager himself, so I would suggest that the two players are very much working closely together.

**interesti88** · 24-01-2011 07:12

Originally Posted by Ellis_D

Am I the only person who thinks tutoring shouldn't even be in the game?

I honestly just think it is daft and unrealistic, and I wish the option wasn't there.

Quite apart from being sick of youngsters refusing to do it, I am also sick of players falling out and becoming enemies.

But that is not all, it's just in real life players don't tutor each other. Can you honestly imagine Alex Ferguson calling Chris Smalling and Rio Ferdinand into his office and saying, "Right Chris, I want you to learn from Rio. I want him to teach you how to defend better, and how to cope with the mental aspects of the game. He can teach you how to be more determined, more hard working. If you listen to Rio you will become stronger mentally, a better footballer, and have more of a chance of playing for England."

I know for a fact this doesn't happen. This is the manager's job, plus that of his assistant and coaches, not senior players. This is taught in training, where yes, they can watch older players train, but they don't spend extra time with the senior players in order to become more determined, or better leaders.

Completely unrealistic.

I think your wrong, the way the game goes about tutoring is most likely not even close to how a real manager might approach a youngster. If you think a manager like SAF doesn't allow his junior players to shadow the more senior players, then I don't think you understand football. A player grows by learning and a good player learns by watching other players. FACT

**ProZone** · 24-01-2011 10:39

Originally Posted by Novox

The solution would be to create a new reputation level that, well, never decreases but increases really slowly throughout a players career. So that players like Roberto Carlos will reach a high level and will always be "remembered" and youngster will look up to him, no matter his current ability or current reputation.

Rather than creating an additional reputation system, a good and far more simple alternative would be to record the highest reputation value reached during the player's career.

**kingjericho** · 24-01-2011 11:59

Originally Posted by ProZone

Rather than creating an additional reputation system, a good and far more simple alternative would be to record the highest reputation value reached during the player's career.

Agree. Players can be even better tutors when they're ending their career.

**Rice2cu** · 24-01-2011 14:29

Originally Posted by clonerohin1

Is it meant to be this way?
Is it Broken?
1. The majority of promising young stars (wonderkids) and hot prospects are now Un-Tutorable. Lukaku, Kadlec, Rodwell are just few well-known ones that cannot be tutored in the game apart from other lesser known ones like Torric, Livaja etc (both in my team) and countless others. These are teenagers, and in order for them to realize their full potential they need Tutoring, and the much needed hidden mental trait attributes which come as a result.

2. Tutors that have been asked to tutor once (irrespective of whether they ended up doing it or not), cannot be asked again for a long time. Some have reported as long as two years since they last asked a Veteran to Tutor and are still getting the tutoring option greyed out.

1)It's not just about reputation. Players like Lukaku, Kadlec and Rodwell will sign for most clubs on at least First Team Contracts. They have signed for me before, in various seasons, at West Ham. You cannot tutor a player who has the same or higher club status as you.
Example .... Mathew Upson = Key Player cannot tutor Lukaku =Key player.
Rob Green = Key Player can tutor Jack Butland = Back up.

NOTE; I tutored Jordan Spence with Mathew Upson and it had a negative affect. Spence actually lost 3 determination points. There was a big personality gap..... I actually like this feature, although it can be annoying

2)In season 2010/2011 as West Ham, I sucessfully got Rob Green to tutor Jack Butland twice in a row with just about a month between requests.

I dont think Tutoring is broken or bugged, I just think it's difficult ....... as it should be.
If you think about it, it would be a difficult thing in RL to do, so why should it be easier on FM?
Sometimes, people want every action they take in FM to be sucessful....... If that were the case, SI would lose half it's custom.

**Novox** · 24-01-2011 19:03

Originally Posted by ProZone

Rather than creating an additional reputation system, a good and far more simple alternative would be to record the highest reputation value reached during the player's career.

fair enough :P for some reason that never came to mind and sounds a lot easier than creating a whole new reputation system.

thanks

**BossAsianMafia** · 25-01-2011 00:14

Originally Posted by Rice2cu

1)It's not just about reputation. Players like Lukaku, Kadlec and Rodwell will sign for most clubs on at least First Team Contracts. They have signed for me before, in various seasons, at West Ham. You cannot tutor a player who has the same or higher club status as you.
Example .... Mathew Upson = Key Player cannot tutor Lukaku =Key player.
Rob Green = Key Player can tutor Jack Butland = Back up.

NOTE; I tutored Jordan Spence with Mathew Upson and it had a negative affect. Spence actually lost 3 determination points. There was a big personality gap..... I actually like this feature, although it can be annoying

2)In season 2010/2011 as West Ham, I sucessfully got Rob Green to tutor Jack Butland twice in a row with just about a month between requests.

I dont think Tutoring is broken or bugged, I just think it's difficult ....... as it should be.
If you think about it, it would be a difficult thing in RL to do, so why should it be easier on FM?
Sometimes, people want every action they take in FM to be sucessful....... If that were the case, SI would lose half it's custom.

I think there's something to be said about FM showing us why we're successful/unsuccessful,
rather than the random chance that it seems to be with a whole host of options e.g. tutoring, morale at present.

**themadsheep2001** · 25-01-2011 00:21

Originally Posted by BossAsianMafia

I think there's something to be said about FM showing us why we're successful/unsuccessful,
rather than the random chance that it seems to be with a whole host of options e.g. tutoring, morale at present.

wouldnt say morale is chancey at all, the only issue is that it drops and rises in too a big a change

**Ellis_D** · 25-01-2011 02:14

Originally Posted by cruyff14

I doubt this very much Ferguson is always saying how important his senior players are in the development of the younger players at the club, teaching them how to live on and off the field. Also having someone senior to yourself to shadow is no different to doing an apprenticeship, something that has been in effect in football and the working world for a very long time.

I also think you choose a wrong example with Smalling and Rio considering Fergie bought him with the hope he will become Ferdinand's successor. And the fact there has been comparisons drawn between the two players by pundits,players,coaches as well as the manager himself, so I would suggest that the two players are very much working closely together.

I honestly don't think they will be working any closer together than any other players at ManUre. I think they will all just train together as normal and that is it.

**Ellis_D** · 25-01-2011 02:19

Originally Posted by interesti88

I think your wrong, the way the game goes about tutoring is most likely not even close to how a real manager might approach a youngster. If you think a manager like SAF doesn't allow his junior players to shadow the more senior players, then I don't think you understand football. A player grows by learning and a good player learns by watching other players. FACT

Erm, I did say they will watch the older players, but there is no way two players will work seperately from the group for a long period of time. They all train together it's as simple as that. Have you never seen training sessions before? I have, and I have never seen two players off working on their own every day.

Nor do they work together alone outside of training, so yeah, as I said, completely unrealistic. Perhaps it's you who doesn't understand football.

**interesti88** · 25-01-2011 03:06

Originally Posted by Ellis_D

Erm, I did say they will watch the older players, but there is no way two players will work seperately from the group for a long period of time. They all train together it's as simple as that. Have you never seen training sessions before? I have, and I have never seen two players off working on their own every day.

Nor do they work together alone outside of training, so yeah, as I said, completely unrealistic. Perhaps it's you who doesn't understand football.

LOL. Don't get so upset my friend, I wasn't saying these 2 example players go off and train by themselves either but I'm pretty sure they put in some extra work on the trainning field

**BossAsianMafia** · 25-01-2011 11:02

Originally Posted by themadsheep2001

wouldnt say morale is chancey at all, the only issue is that it drops and rises in too a big a change

Meant player interaction and its effect on Morale. Seemed more like a click-and-hope at this point in time.

**themadsheep2001** · 25-01-2011 11:30

Originally Posted by BossAsianMafia

Meant player interaction and its effect on Morale. Seemed more like a click-and-hope at this point in time.

ah yeah that i can kinda agree with, player interaction was a huge part of my game in fm10, i still use it, but not as much simply it because it feels too click and hope. maybe i'm just not getting it perfectly right this time round, but thats how it feels to me

**Dekker2** · 25-01-2011 11:53

Originally Posted by Edinton

It would be an amazing feature (for the future I'm sure) if it could somehow become a natural 'connection' between players, so we're advised that a senior player has taken a youngster under his wing or the youngster is inspired by the example set by the senior pro and adapts his game/approach accordingly.

Always thought that it should be a lot more like this.

For instance: you'd perhaps sign a young CB and he'd say that he was eager to work closely with Nemanja Vidic, and really thought he could learn a lot from him. Then he'd just start modelling his game on Nemanja, without your consent. Or the CB would declare that he idolises Scholes and start imitating his loyalty and professionalism off the pitch - even though they don't play the same position on the pitch.

If you didn't like where it was heading, then you might comment that you don't envision YoungCB as a rugged stopper in the manner of Vidic, and actually thought that he would do better to look at Ferdinand's positioning and play-reading abilities, or that you felt the youngster should learn to be his own man - and if the youngster respects you, he might follow your suggestion.
The same could work with friendships, which are modelled spectacularly badly in the game (how come players don't mutually put each other on their favoured personnel lists?- It's always one-way hero worship, rarely a mutual friendship).

Real-life Examples:
Giggs used to live with Lee Sharpe when he was a youngster. Lee Sharpe was not very professional, and Giggs started joining in his party lifestyle, so Ferguson went round his house and gave him the hairdryer: Giggs didn't ask Ferguson whether he should model his off-field behaviour on Sharpe, he just started doing it, until Ferguson made him stop.

Darren Fletcher modelled his attitude to training and his on-field play completely on Roy Keane. He idolised him completely and utterly, (even though Keane thought he was a crap player) and has spoken in many interviews of how Keane set the tone for training, and demanded 100% of the young players and new arrivals, and how he (Fletcher) tries to continue that tradition now that he's a first-team regular.

If a player with high influence and/or reputation automatically sets an example for many of the younger players (ie "auto-mentors" them), then it would suddenly make a lot more sense to keep old and sensible heads in the dressing room. And a player like Ronaldinho would suddenly be far more of a gamble: "What if younger players start copying his behaviour?" would be a question you'd actually have to weigh up before you signed him. Instead of just looking at technical stats, with a brief glance at determination and workrate and a mental note not to use him as a tutor.

Your squad would have a personality that actually mattered, and spread:
When Wenger took over Arsenal, one of his first problems was how to handle the highly determined, highly influential, but unprofessional gamblers and drinkers of Arsenal's 90s bootroom.
Supposedly, when Mourinho got fired and Grant was in charge, Terry, Lampard and Drogba basically ran Chelsea - setting the tone, keeping everyone in line.

In FM, some people just sell their players the day they hit 30, and they never find themselves in a situation like Arsenal's where a lack of leadership in the dressing room has cost them games and entire competitions - because having a dressing room full of leaders means diddly squat in FM.

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