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Thread: SI need to find the balance between fun and realism!

  1. #101
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    Top post, should of just quoted this, all my frustrations are what you pointed out.

    I also dont have time to anylize (sP) every game as barely have enough time to play 10-15 games a day as it is, and thats if I'm lucky.

    (If my reply comes out twice its cause I didnt see first post come up when I refreshed).

    Quote Originally Posted by bieritarier View Post
    Some good posts in here I have to say. I for one wouldn't say the game is too complex. It is more of too "cluttered". As some guys on here mentioned there are tons of variables that you need to bear in mind when you want to get good results constantly. The game maybe does give a lot of feedback, but you need to look out for it in many places. Backroom advice could be so great if it would just tell you _why_ you were struggling in your last match and maybe give a hint on what to do about it. Instead I'm just constantly being told that we struggle against oppositions playing a 4-2-2-2 when in fact I haven't played against a team with that formation in about a year. And I know that because I constantly have the formation widget up.

    However, this isn'T even the worst thing. Losing a match isn't the problem. Going on a bad run isn't the problem. The problem is that you can't (or shall I say I can'T figure out why). On every save I tend to start ok to great. Team is smashing team with 3, 4 or even 5 goals difference, the lads pass the ball to open teammates who slot it some most of the time. They don't take a million of long shots.

    Then all of a sudden it all falls apart. My players become selfish, constantly shooting from bad positions rather than playing the through ball, misplacing passes, not closing down the other team's players anymore, losing every battle.

    What really drives me mad is the way a bad result is being displayed. It just does not feel right. The whole team all of a sudden behaves this way. If it were 1, 2 or 3 players performing badly (everyone has an off night) I could understand that. However, a bad day always affects the whole team. All defenders stand off their opponent and don't dare to tackle, not just one of them. All attacking players become selfish morons who just blast the ball over countless times. The whole team can't make a good tackle to save their lives.

    At least for me, this is what makes you believe the game has just decided that you need to go on a bad run. Couple this is the lack of feedback the game still provides and you have the receipe for frustration. Some were talking about realism. Is it really realistic that your _entire_ world class, 25 game unbeaten squad all of a sudden turns into a team of complete morons that don't even get the basics of football right (i.e. not run away from the opponent striker/midfielder/ball? I've watched a lot of football in my life but how the game represents wrong tactics/low morale etc. is just ridiculous at times.

    And then there's all the stuff that should actually help players that either don'T have the time or experience to be all hands on in every area.... Auto assign coaches? Results are not even close to the best setup. Opposition instructions? Yea, can do that if you are keen on a ton of yellow and your fair share of red cards. Team talks? Better double-check unless you want your ass man to make sure you turn a 1-0 ht lead into a loss (Pleased.....).

    Team talks are an area that I personally don'T like since its introduction. Quite often there is no option repesenting how the match palyed out. I find myself quite often saying nothing because that seems to be the safest option if you don't want to risk a lacklustre second half. And why the hell can't I see the player reactions to the team talk right after I confirmed the team talk, on the same screen? Why do I have to go to a separate screen post match to see it? It's like covering your eyes with your hands while holding a team talk.

    Realism is not a bad thing. However, if you incorporate a ton of aspect into the way the match plays out, at least make sure that (most) of them are transparent.

    BTW, it'S the same with some of the hidden stats. A player is known for his professionalism, dirtiness, loyality. If he wasn'T how could you rate him in the DB? Yet, the only way to get a slight idea about what these stats are are scout reports, and these aren't very accurate either - another example for a lack of transparency...

    To cut a long story short - it's not about the result for me, it's about the representation of the result. If you want to be realistic then make sure that the reasons for a match playing out badly are understandable and realistic.

    And if the only way to understand it is to watch the match in full then print this in big red letters on the front cover of the box please.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shibby View Post
    Really we want an FM lite on the PC. Surely a striped down lite version is commercial and technical viable.
    FM Live is stripped down lite version, albeit it's an online game with a modest subscription fee.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by gate2 View Post
    What annoy me more than FM11 is people, like you, can not take different opinion well. Ask others to take your "wise" advice doing this doing that.
    In case you didn't know, a game forum of any kind is a channel to communicate advice and/or help to fellow players in the community. It's put in place to help each other to reach higher goals and set even higher targets. This has not so much to do with being fun, it's more to do with common decency and belonging. It's interesting to discuss a common interest and share various experience and aspects of it. If you think someone diminishes your "sense of fun" by giving you help then there's not much else anyone can do. It comes down to yourself.


    Only to turn a game around? I just want to have fun. If FM11 was not fun to me, I move on.
    Now you're just taking the mick right? Do you seriously think the countless threads about various players, tactics and different skins just have to do with turning a game around?


    I wonder what kind of people will take a game so seriously and can not stand others to dislike a game?
    Hyperbole and being a drama queen doesn't work very well together, I thought you were clever enough to understand that.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lindhoffen View Post
    In case you didn't know, a game forum of any kind is a channel to communicate advice and/or help to fellow players in the community. It's put in place to help each other to reach higher goals and set even higher targets. This has not so much to do with being fun, it's more to do with common decency and belonging. It's interesting to discuss a common interest and share various experience and aspects of it. If you think someone diminishes your "sense of fun" by giving you help then there's not much else anyone can do. It comes down to yourself.
    See, this is what I called "take a game too serious". There are many people in this thread said the same thing, "they just want a fun game". FM11 might not for those people, me included. So we have this thread share our opinion and feeling. That's all. But people like you, take a game so serious, come in, jump on people try to "help" people to achieve your so-called "higher goal" "higher target". But you're so wrong. We just want fun. Well prepared for just one match in FM11 is not fun.

    BTW forum has many function, people who want to discuses tactics, seek help to build their team should have their thread on "tactics and training tip" forum. If you want help those people, go there. This thread is not for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lindhoffen View Post
    Now you're just taking the mick right? Do you seriously think the countless threads about various players, tactics and different skins just have to do with turning a game around?

    Hyperbole and being a drama queen doesn't work very well together, I thought you were clever enough to understand that.
    So ironic you say so.
    Last edited by gate2; 12-11-2010 at 13:06.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by gate2 View Post
    See, this is what I called "take a game too serious". There are many people in this thread said the same thing, "they just want a fun game". FM11 might not for those people, me included.
    You said it yourself. "Just having a fun game" is very subjective and I don't think FM is designed to be a casual game seeing as the role you play covers a lot of aspects. Too many aspects some might say, me included, and that's why they come on the forum to discuss it.


    But people like you, take a game so serious, come in, jump on people try to "help" people to achieve your so-called "higher goal" "higher target". But you're so wrong. We just want fun. Well prepared for just one match in FM11 is not fun.
    It's very objective what these "higher goals" are. If you play a bottom team the "higher goal" can simply be to win a match. For someone else it might be to sign a player they've set their eyes on. What's the point to do anything if you can't become better at it? It doesn't necessarily take away any of the fun. The very nature of Football Manager dictates that you need to prepare a lot of things in order to succeed. I'm quite surprised you haven't understood that simple fact.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    I answered this enquiry. As a tactical mod, part of my role is to try and help people get to grips with this type of question. I simply explained where you were going wrong and that it was more your man / media management than it was your tactics, using your own post as evidence. If you don't want someone to answer your question, then don't post a question. I've done the best I can to help you understand what happened. It is up to you if you want to listen or not.
    Your quote just reflect why you act so bad as moderator showing no respect to people's article. What I'm saying is I don't understand why game act like this. It lead to me having no fun from it. So it start with "My point is...." This is not asking for clarification.

    The most entertaining thing is you say "All of this directly relates to the manager's personality and how he communicates with his players......". It suggests you consider yourself as manager when play FM11. But I'm always thinking myself just a player to play a game. A player does not want to know every aspect of a game just wanna fun playing. That's major difference between you and me.

    My advise to you. If you want some appreciated from others. Save your wise tactics advice to people who ask for it. They usually start sentence with "could someone help me on ........"

  7. #107
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    For people who want have fun with a football game, please buy FIFA Manager and not FM.............The first good decision before buying something (TV, car etc...) is to know what sort of things you search and what is the goal you want to achieve with....If you want to drive your wife and 4 kids and go to the beach, don't buy a sport car..same with a computer game....
    If you want fight battle, don't buy Civilization......

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by bieritarier View Post
    To cut a long story short - it's not about the result for me, it's about the representation of the result. If you want to be realistic then make sure that the reasons for a match playing out badly are understandable and realistic.
    Good post, I agree with most of what you said - even though I've only quoted a small fraction of it.

    I'm mainly posting this because you obviously spent a reasonably amount of time writing that out, and it would be a shame if you thought it had gone unnoticed and lost amongst the bickering that's going on around it.

  9. #109
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    Sounds to me like youre just not that good at FM.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by gate2 View Post
    The most entertaining thing is you say "All of this directly relates to the manager's personality and how he communicates with his players......". It suggests you consider yourself as manager when play FM11.

    Something tells me you haven't understood what FM is all about. It is not an arcade game where you play casually, there are other football management games out there that suit does needs better. Have you ever heard about role playing before? That's what FM aims at.


    But I'm always thinking myself just a player to play a game. A player does not want to know every aspect of a game just wanna fun playing.
    That might be true if you're playing PacMan or Tetris. Those games are also less complex than Football Manager.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lindhoffen View Post
    Something tells me you haven't understood what FM is all about. It is not an arcade game where you play casually, there are other football management games out there that suit does needs better. Have you ever heard about role playing before? That's what FM aims at.

    That might be true if you're playing PacMan or Tetris. Those games are also less complex than Football Manager.
    Wait what? How does FM compare to Role Playing Game? Now I'm confused, I thought I was playing Football simulation and not Role Playing Game... wait don't tell me that some Final Fantasy or Dungeon and Dragons character appears as manager, WOW THAT IS FREAKING COOL. All this time I thought the game was realistic as possible, but i find out that it is fantasy. I hope I receive game because I want to slay a few monsters. Who's the Boss in the final? Mourinhonster? Fergonster?

  12. #112
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    The only conversation some of you are leading in your life are talks with board and players.Some of you are completely missing the point,saying that some of us only want to win,and that's why we don't like the game.

    I guess most of this people that i "annoy" cause i want this game to be a little different are kids.I've spent much time playing CM when i was younger,and i suppose they're doing this now.And i was playing CM,but also i had school,played football,getting drunk with my friends and all of the stuff younger people do.

    As someone wrote a great post about representation of losing,that the game doesn't give you any feedback of why are you suddenly losing,and when this starts it looks like it will never end.Tbh i'm achieving my goals right now,and i'm in cup final,so please don't tell me who this game is for.

  13. #113
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    Some people fancy themselves to be quite the Grand Masters of a "complicated" game and advise all other players to play Tetris. They are the toxic by-product of this wonderful series. I call them Pyramids but they are also known as "football geeks".

    I would like to expand a bit more on this strange by-product. My belief is that SI did not intent to produce such thing.

    As I explain earlier this game is not a management simulation. Quite simply because the personality of the manager has zero to miniscule effect on the success of the team. In reality, it is the personality of the manager that plays the bigger role.

    The game is excellent, but many times it is confused as to what it should do. For years it was a big database and a big match engine. The match engine worked (and works) quite well. Not as a simulation but as a computer game. The difference is crucial.

    As the game evolved, it attempted to include features that will make it resemble real life more. However, the sheer size of the match engine leaves no room for such features to be developed. There is another thing that hinders this effort: The complete and utter non-realism of the opponent's AI. This is something we haven't touched yet.

    In every match we see the AI to act in the most ridiculous manner there is. Formations change every two minutes. The response to the human manager's tactical moves is comic. But we will get back to that.

    As I said it was attempted to add features to resemble real life, which lack depth or "complexity". It would still be easy for someone who got a few good players and arranged them properly in the field to have great success, although in real life these only play a small role in the manager's performance. What could be done to avoid that? Easy: Throw in unpredictable, unexplainable difficulties.

    This is why the game frustrates a many people. In it's attempt to become a "simulation" the game destroys the manager's efforts to make itself more difficult or, as the Pyramids think, more real. In a good game, difficulty should lie in a good AI. In a "simulation", difficulty should lie in the struggles of the manager, who, as in real life, would have to show those management skills that are essential in the job.

    At the moment it is not a proper game (because it is unexplainable, even if the Pyramids or wfan always have an explanation) nor it is a simulation (as proven above)

    This is exactly the problem.

  14. #114
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    This thread is dying a horrible death and no longer has any contribution other than personal attacks.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by grade View Post
    Wait what? How does FM compare to Role Playing Game? Now I'm confused, I thought I was playing Football simulation and not Role Playing Game...
    I've described it as part-RPG myself in the past, this is because it involves a lot of personality modelling, interactions with people and setting the 'scene' for the world at large (ie. you hear about news etc. which doesn't directly involve you) and other items which are frequently thought of as part of an RPG.

    Don't just think of RPG's in terms of D&D, you'd be amazed at how many different styles of such things there are out there .... now FM isn't an RPG, but does contain elements from them which imho help make it better and more immersive.

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