Closed Thread
Results 1 to 26 of 26

Thread: "Player Movement Instructions" : Idea for Improrevment Next FM Releases

  1. #1
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    20th June 2004
    Posts
    2,020

    Default

    I've been mentioning this idea (PMI) recently in various threds. many gamers find sliders hard to manage and would like them being easier to understand. the mein problem as I see them is becouse of so many combinations. while I agree it can be hard and time consuming for understanding how sliders work, I really don't see any alternative for them. even more I think team instructions to be quite detailed and they bring decent amount of real life football features. the only two team sliders questionable to me are "creative freedom" and "time wasting". also I don't support idea of having reduced number of notches on sliders. but I'm sure timewasting would need no more then 3 notches, but this is something for other discussion.



    one area that needs improvement are "player instructions". real life managers can talk to players, give them exact tactical instructions- roles and duties. here's where I believe that player sliders aren't enough and that "Player Movement Instructions" could improve tactical system hugely. it would work well in combination with sliders. so what are PMI?



    "Player Movement Instructions" are simply instructions for giving us control over player movement. many will agree that player movement isn't the strong point of current match engine. one of the reasons for poor player movement are also "Arrows". I strongly support an idea of this thread, written by rashidi1: http://community.sigames.com/eve/for...7/m/6402015093


    the question I was allways asking my self is; are "Preffered Moves" really a habbit player has or they are an instructions given by their managers. IMO, they are both.

    so "Player Movement Instructions" could easily be a "tick box" for allready known "Movement Preffered Moves":

    - Gets into opposition box

    - Moves into channels

    - Gets forward whenever possible

    - Likes to try to beat offside trap

    - Comes deep to get ball

    - Arrives late into box

    - Allways stays back

    - Hugs line



    at least one more PPM should be introduced (mostly for wingers who have this habbit/instruction):

    - Moves into central positions



    what would be the benefits?

    - IMO player movement should be controled by mentality and "Player Movement Instructions". movement in tatical system would be simplified without arrows--> only a defensive formation would be enough.

    - forward runs wouldn't be needed anymore, for the same reason (mentality and PMI)

    - without arrows player's movement wouldn't be so statical and predictable.

    - removing the arrows and adding PMI would bring one important thing. every formation, 4-4-2 for example would be different, which isn't the case now. standard 4-4-2 bring many variations of it IRE. so the basic defensive shape is 4-4-2 but when in posession it might transform into 2-4-4, 4-2-4, 2-3-3-2, 2-2-2-2-2, or any other combination. that's also one of the reasons why 4-4-2 is so popular and effective.

    - for the same reason we would actually have to take a look at our opponents matches, (thier style) before we play. it would add realism.

  2. #2
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    20th June 2004
    Posts
    2,020

    Default

    I've been mentioning this idea (PMI) recently in various threds. many gamers find sliders hard to manage and would like them being easier to understand. the mein problem as I see them is becouse of so many combinations. while I agree it can be hard and time consuming for understanding how sliders work, I really don't see any alternative for them. even more I think team instructions to be quite detailed and they bring decent amount of real life football features. the only two team sliders questionable to me are "creative freedom" and "time wasting". also I don't support idea of having reduced number of notches on sliders. but I'm sure timewasting would need no more then 3 notches, but this is something for other discussion.



    one area that needs improvement are "player instructions". real life managers can talk to players, give them exact tactical instructions- roles and duties. here's where I believe that player sliders aren't enough and that "Player Movement Instructions" could improve tactical system hugely. it would work well in combination with sliders. so what are PMI?



    "Player Movement Instructions" are simply instructions for giving us control over player movement. many will agree that player movement isn't the strong point of current match engine. one of the reasons for poor player movement are also "Arrows". I strongly support an idea of this thread, written by rashidi1: http://community.sigames.com/eve/for...7/m/6402015093


    the question I was allways asking my self is; are "Preffered Moves" really a habbit player has or they are an instructions given by their managers. IMO, they are both.

    so "Player Movement Instructions" could easily be a "tick box" for allready known "Movement Preffered Moves":

    - Gets into opposition box

    - Moves into channels

    - Gets forward whenever possible

    - Likes to try to beat offside trap

    - Comes deep to get ball

    - Arrives late into box

    - Allways stays back

    - Hugs line



    at least one more PPM should be introduced (mostly for wingers who have this habbit/instruction):

    - Moves into central positions



    what would be the benefits?

    - IMO player movement should be controled by mentality and "Player Movement Instructions". movement in tatical system would be simplified without arrows--> only a defensive formation would be enough.

    - forward runs wouldn't be needed anymore, for the same reason (mentality and PMI)

    - without arrows player's movement wouldn't be so statical and predictable.

    - removing the arrows and adding PMI would bring one important thing. every formation, 4-4-2 for example would be different, which isn't the case now. standard 4-4-2 bring many variations of it IRE. so the basic defensive shape is 4-4-2 but when in posession it might transform into 2-4-4, 4-2-4, 2-3-3-2, 2-2-2-2-2, or any other combination. that's also one of the reasons why 4-4-2 is so popular and effective.

    - for the same reason we would actually have to take a look at our opponents matches, (thier style) before we play. it would add realism.

  3. #3

    Default

    i think this is a good idea, however i think it might be better implemented that a manager could train a player to do the prefered moves and then instruct which ones to try and perform dependent on the opposition

  4. #4
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    20th June 2004
    Posts
    2,020

    Default

    preffered moves should be able to train through training or using PMI for some amount of time. and their number should be limited, defenetly, IMO.

  5. #5
    Amateur
    Join Date
    23rd August 2003
    Location
    Papua New Guinea
    Posts
    60

    Default

    I agree with simplifying the tactics system.

    It is possible to make a player behave as the preferred moves. For example, if you want your winger to hug the line, you can tell them to run with the ball, and cross often from the byline.
    But this isn't immediately obvious for newer players, so a simple one click button would be good.
    You might get into problems if for example you want a box to box midfielder. Do you tell them to stay back at all times, and get forwards whenever possible?

    I agree with being able to develop a player's preferred moves. If you have a player's long shots set to often, then eventually he should develop it as a habit.

  6. #6
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    20th June 2004
    Posts
    2,020

    Default

    the whole point of PMI's is much easier instructing players and giving them roles. of course better the player more PMI's you can give him. depending on his teamwork, decision and off the ball attributes. but it should be limited as well

    - box to box MC: come deep for the ball + get into opp area + mentality shouldn't be too defensive

    - overlaping full back: hug line + get forward whenever possible + quite att mentality

    - winger playmaker: come deep for the ball + move into central positions

    - holding MC: allways stay back + more defensive mentality

    - 2nd striker: come deep for the ball + more defensive mentality

  7. #7
    Amateur
    Join Date
    17th February 2008
    Posts
    521

    Default

    don't think they should lose any of the tactical instructions, only tweak the ones they have and add a few.
    for example if you have a winger that has the beating of his marking all day and you want him to take advantage of this by taking him on as much as he can how do you instruct this.
    you would think push the run with ball slider to the max etc.
    but does this actually work and is it specifc enough.
    why don't they add a take on marker box etc

  8. #8
    Amateur
    Join Date
    17th February 2008
    Posts
    521

    Default

    i know we could list thousands of tactics and ask why they are not in fm, and of course it isnt possible but other things they could think about;
    think about real football, teams pass in triangles, third man running, players playing in tadems like full back and winger, again this isn't really possible in fm.
    i just wonder when you play the game, how often you can distintly recognise when you are playing against tacticly differnet teams.
    when you play bolton do you really notice the different approach they have compared to man u?
    if you really look hard, i don't think you do!

  9. #9
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    20th June 2004
    Posts
    2,020

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by DarthInsinuate:
    I agree with simplifying the tactics system.

    It is possible to make a player behave as the preferred moves. For example, if you want your winger to hug the line, you can tell them to run with the ball, and cross often from the byline.
    But this isn't immediately obvious for newer players, so a simple one click button would be good.
    You might get into problems if for example you want a box to box midfielder. Do you tell them to stay back at all times, and get forwards whenever possible?

    I agree with being able to develop a player's preferred moves. If you have a player's long shots set to often, then eventually he should develop it as a habit.


    I know what you are saying about huging the line winger. but it's not the same. PMI would bring a whole new dimension to tacics as well as formation outlook. every 4-4-2 would be different. you could be able to make formations looking most wide at the back (hug line for back 4) and at the same time very narrow up front with one striker playing on flank more. imagine how many combinations we'd have.

    the problem with arrows is that they are static tool. wouldn't it be better if we can control our players so they move to a flank once and then comming deep other time and then moving central...? isn't that what managers do IRE. some want their players to play strict in position and others like them to move around. this is all tactcal basics to me.

  10. #10
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    18th March 2001
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    1,036

    Default

    Good ideas.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    at least one more PPM should be introduced (mostly for wingers who have this habbit/instruction):

    - Moves into central positions


    How does this differ from the current 'Cuts Inside' PPM?

  11. #11
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    20th June 2004
    Posts
    2,020

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by LSS:
    Good ideas.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    at least one more PPM should be introduced (mostly for wingers who have this habbit/instruction):

    - Moves into central positions


    How does this differ from the current 'Cuts Inside' PPM?


    I'm not sure if this is true but from my experience "cuts inside" is a move player makes with the ball. and "moves to central positions" is a move player makes without the ball.

    even though you won't see much of "cuts inside". at least my player with PPM "cuts inside" doesn't do it much. but let's leave it for another discussion.

  12. #12
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    20th June 2004
    Posts
    2,020

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by arseneknows:
    i know we could list thousands of tactics and ask why they are not in fm, and of course it isnt possible but other things they could think about;
    think about real football, teams pass in triangles, third man running, players playing in tadems like full back and winger, again this isn't really possible in fm.
    i just wonder when you play the game, how often you can distintly recognise when you are playing against tacticly differnet teams.
    when you play bolton do you really notice the different approach they have compared to man u?
    if you really look hard, i don't think you do!


    this is very good point. but I think all these are more match engine issuses then tactical ones. but I agree with you, different football styles aren't really recognisable. it's not hard to spot AI's mentality or closing down. and here we come to the point where I think, sliders aren't enough. the game really needs more detailes. and this can only be achieved by giving specific roles and instructions, to players. and that's exactly what PMI's are.

  13. #13
    Amateur
    Join Date
    24th January 2007
    Location
    Buckinghamshire
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Mitja, again a great post from yourself, and i like the tick box idea a lot.

    I do tend to think that despite what sliders do, it does limit style of attack to a degree.

    The tick box idea should register more as a specific style the manager wants, and as long as it was evidenced in match engine (i sometimes think my instructions aren't transferred accurately, even if succesful results) i'd be all for it.

    I think the AI (and this is just technology i'd imagine) is very basic, so to watch their games may be more for the hardened player. For example, i got very bored of watching my potential International squad players in their club games after a month.

    To add to that, i can guarantee the AI will convert to 4-2-4 if i'm winning with 10 minutes to play, i dont need to watch their game before hand to be prepared for that.

    On that note, the tick box may be good to counter that master tactic, perhaps clearing all other boxes and ticking one saying 'defend intelligently', or something...

  14. #14
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    20th June 2004
    Posts
    2,020

    Default

    one thing that's been on my mind are forward runs. they are quite unlogical and counterdicting to mentality. what's the point of having defensive mentality and FR to often. or attacking mentality and FR to rarely.

    I defenetly think arrows and forward runs should become past.

    how quickly and how far would player move forward should be setermined by mentality setting and player ability to do it. this way player ability (off the ball, decision, work rate, stamina attribute) for going forward would become more important. at the moment any player with forward runs set to often is simply going forward, which I think shouldn't be the case. as many players would struggle to do it IRE, so you would need to have the right players for your planed tactic.

    and the other thing is; what if I want my players making back runs or side runs. it's not really possible right now becouse if you have player on forward runs often he will allways go forward (not to side or back). and if you have him on FR rarely he will just stand in his position. again we come to the point where we need to have more specific movement instructions. let's say I'm playing attacking mentality football, but I want my creative winger to play in my build-up attcks. with PMI's it would be easy, as I just tick him with "come deep for the ball" and "move to central positions".

  15. #15
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st January 2008
    Posts
    33

    Default

    I think you should have an option to stop the opposition passing or have your team pass alot as this would break up their play and playing 1 touch football could help against teams that are slow/closing down alot.
    Also, you should be able to have defensive runs as this could stop you being countered too much and also could help you get a counter attack (have midfielders/wingers and strikers running forward and as soon as you get the ball pass to them or hit a long ball to start a swift break).

  16. #16
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st January 2008
    Posts
    33

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by man u for life:
    you should be able to have defensive runs

    I.e when you dont have the ball or lose it in your own half. (dosent have to be pointing back - strikers and wingers could have defensive arrows going forward)
    (**no editing so had to double post)

  17. #17
    Amateur
    Join Date
    11th October 2007
    Posts
    207

    Default

    SIGNED... i agree wif having PMI...

  18. #18
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    20th June 2004
    Posts
    2,020

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by man u for life:
    I think you should have an option to stop the opposition passing or have your team pass alot as this would break up their play and playing 1 touch football could help against teams that are slow/closing down alot.
    Also, you should be able to have defensive runs as this could stop you being countered too much and also could help you get a counter attack (have midfielders/wingers and strikers running forward and as soon as you get the ball pass to them or hit a long ball to start a swift break).


    you allready have options to stop them passing- closing down, Dline, (hard) tackling. I really don't see anything alse what could be added.

    the same goes for your other point. passing, tempo and time wasting sliders.

    I allready think we control our matches too much now. for example, players going forward, especially in fast tempo games. player ability and PPM's should be more important (stamina, work rate). but we don't have any control about how and where they will make their runs (arrows just tell a player where he should stand on the pitch).

  19. #19
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    20th June 2004
    Posts
    2,020

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by man u for life:
    I think you should have an option to stop the opposition passing or have your team pass alot as this would break up their play and playing 1 touch football could help against teams that are slow/closing down alot.
    Also, you should be able to have defensive runs as this could stop you being countered too much and also could help you get a counter attack (have midfielders/wingers and strikers running forward and as soon as you get the ball pass to them or hit a long ball to start a swift break).


    you allready have options to stop them passing- closing down, Dline, (hard) tackling. I really don't see anything alse what could be added.

    the same goes for your other point. passing, tempo and time wasting sliders.

    I allready think we control our matches too much now. for example, players going forward, especially in fast tempo games. player ability and PPM's should be more important (stamina, work rate). but we don't have any control about how and where they will make their runs (arrows just tell a player where he should stand on the pitch).

  20. #20
    Amateur
    Join Date
    13th March 2008
    Location
    In the space between now and then.
    Posts
    95

    Default

    quote:
    quote:
    Originally posted by LSS:
    Good ideas.


    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    at least one more PPM should be introduced (mostly for wingers who have this habbit/instruction):

    - Moves into central positions


    How does this differ from the current 'Cuts Inside' PPM?


    I'm not sure if this is true but from my experience "cuts inside" is a move player makes with the ball. and "moves to central positions" is a move player makes without the ball.

    even though you won't see much of "cuts inside". at least my player with PPM "cuts inside" doesn't do it much. but let's leave it for another discussion.


    PPM descriptions.

  21. #21
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    20th June 2004
    Posts
    2,020

    Default

    thank you. and?

  22. #22
    Amateur
    Join Date
    13th March 2008
    Location
    In the space between now and then.
    Posts
    95

    Default

    The discrepancy between your opinions. I was trying to clarify the descriptions. Thank you.

  23. #23
    Amateur
    Join Date
    6th October 2004
    Posts
    38

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    - for the same reason we would actually have to take a look at our opponents matches, (thier style) before we play. it would add realism.


    i agree with your post about ppm's and i think it would revolutionary advance the tactical aspect of the game. allowing numerous tactical differences.

    and even better - we would not need to watch the matches as we have scouts who should check our opponents. so ppm's would be benefitial for our scouts who scout opponents. it would advance this aspect just in the way it needs as now it's too basic.

    so scouts sholud watch opponents for few matches every time discovering new features (depending on their ability), similar to scouting a player now. more times you scout, more details you get.

    so, scouting a team our scout should tell us it they have fullbacks who push forward, playmaker who stops play and dwells on ball, wingers who cut inside and score a lot instead crossing to small strikers... and so on.

  24. #24
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    20th June 2004
    Posts
    2,020

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by blayhod:
    i agree with your post about ppm's and i think it would revolutionary advance the tactical aspect of the game. allowing numerous tactical differences.

    so, scouting a team our scout should tell us it they have fullbacks who push forward, playmaker who stops play and dwells on ball, wingers who cut inside and score a lot instead crossing to small strikers... and so on.


    I wonder how hard it would be for PMI's to code into AI logic. as they are just expanded PPM's they probably make perfect sense for human players. on the other side it's surprising to me that we're so limited in controling player movement, now. as tactical side in this game hasn't improved quite long, I'm sure PMI's would bring more detailed tactical differences and foootball styles. for us as well as AI.

    I find opp scouting reports quite useless, right now. all they tell us what we can't see on opp manager's profile is his passing style. considering that AI tactics and styles are more or less quite the same there's not much they can tell us. well, scouts could already tell us more about opponents' use of target man, free roles, playing width, Dline...any detail.

    having such in depth scouting reports like you said would defenetly add realism, but I wouldn't expect them soon.

  25. #25
    Amateur
    Join Date
    22nd November 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    105

    Default

    i agree with you in most part. About time wasting i do feel that SI should leave the numerous slider options as they are if they decide sliders are necessary.
    I feel the creative freedom slider requires no more than three but the time wasting slider is important depending on how you look at it. this option would require no more than three sliders if was only used when hanging on to a goal(time wasting: often) or chasing the game(time wasting: rarely). but i view this slider as part of the tactical options. If a team wants to hang on to the ball more, not rush play and drag players out of position before passing, having just three options would limit it as setting time wasting to often would be too extreme(players going to corner flag and keeper taking 30 seconds to take a goal kick).
    I personally like to play attacking with a time wasting slider just two clicks foward from 'normal' and very short passes. This massively helps me dominate possesion. My 'little circles' just seem more relaxed on the ball(this can be a disadvantage)
    i just feel that this option would be taken away from me if they were three sliders, as they would only be useful in the last 10 minutes. The options could be reduced but three options just wouldn't be enough.

  26. #26
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    20th June 2004
    Posts
    2,020

    Default

    fair point Wege.

    sorry for quoting you here, however IMO time wasting slider brings nothing more than confussion into tactics. we already have pnumerous sliders with as many combinations. all that you said I believe should be controled by other settings. from what I've seen on these forums everyone's using time wasting slider just two clicks foward from 'normal'. there's no point of having 20 notches if first 6 are more or less useless, maybe even for "gung ho" tactic. players just kick the ball up field.

    let me put it this way. I don't think that teams waste their time if they want to score. how they prepare their attacks, how fast they want to go forward, how fast the ball is moving is controled with mentality, tempo and passing. when they score and change to "time wasting to normal" it doesn't meen they will change their style hugely. they might still play with same mentality and tempo. but they will probably try to hang on to the ball more, they won't rush into their attacks, keeper would take his time to take the goal out...they will play more clever overall. probably their opponents would turn to their "rarely time wasting style".

    we all know what should time wasting often meen, so I won't go into detailes.

    PS I'm not saying that I'm right and you wrong. all that I meen is that time wasting only confuses other instructions and any of that 20 notches can't be used properly.

Closed Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts