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Thread: Realistic Attributes replacing CA/PA

  1. #1
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    It has been brought up many times on the forums that young players future development is already determined on FM because of there PA(Potential Ability) stat, no matter how good their coaches are. There have been discussions to possibly change this approach for future FM games. I certainly think that PA should be scrapped and possibly also CA(Current Ability).

    By removing these stats from the game and using more realistic attributes I think it could greatly improve the realism of FM.

    Im not talking about changing the current system of 1-20, but that the values of each attribute have a higher impact on performance the lower the level(division or reputation of league) the player is playing in. For example a striker with finishing, technique and composure of '8' in the 3rd division might bag 30 goals a season, but unless trained by a good striking coach to improve his attributes would really struggle in the 1st division.

    My suggestion is that for players to succeed at certain levels they must require high enough attributes in key areas. Lets use the English Leagues as an example.

    For a player to be a good/top player in:
    The Premiership
    '14-20' (At this level high Technical Attributes are essential)

    The Championship
    '11-16'

    League One
    '7-12'

    League Two and Below
    '3-8'

    Obviously the reputation of each league comes into play aswel. The big three, England, Spain and Italy would all have similar structures, then Germany, France, Holland, Portugal would require slightly less in their respective divisions and so on.

    You could also go a step further and in the data have a stat that rates each nations style of play. Eg. Spain is considered to attrct a higher number of technically gifted players, where as England would have fewer technically gifted players but more physical and better tacklers, and Italian teams known to have superior defences to any other european teams.

    This would also make European games more realistic because atm, I think the game favours physical attributes more than technical which is why English teams win the European cups too often.

    This system would mean attributes are changing up and down on a weekly basis depending on confidence, morale, training, personal problems, injuries, motivation, relationship with manager/team mates. Irl, all these without doubt have temporary, if not longer, affects on players abilities

    For me this could solve the problem of a lack of quality regens and place more emphises on training and scouting, particularly of young players from lower divisions, whereas at the moment, it's impossible for a young player in the third division to ever progress unless his PA is set high. I also find that when managing a top club, say Man Utd, you can send scouts out to Africa, Asia, Scandinavia and specify you are looking for players under 20 only for your scout to find none. However by doing a manual search, I always find young players with potential in their attributes but deep down I know they will never make it at a high level because the scouts in the game are looking for the PA

    I also think it's time for height and weight to become a realistic factor, and not just cosmetic text. I often see 15 year old regen center backs who are 6'3, while not impossible, most teens have a growth spurt at 18,19,20. Young players body's change so much which can have a huge affect on their footballing abilities.

    I hope I have put my points across well. I found it more difficult than I thought to explain what I was thinking. Please let me know what you think and continue to add suggestions.

    Thanks

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    It has been brought up many times on the forums that young players future development is already determined on FM because of there PA(Potential Ability) stat, no matter how good their coaches are. There have been discussions to possibly change this approach for future FM games. I certainly think that PA should be scrapped and possibly also CA(Current Ability).

    By removing these stats from the game and using more realistic attributes I think it could greatly improve the realism of FM.

    Im not talking about changing the current system of 1-20, but that the values of each attribute have a higher impact on performance the lower the level(division or reputation of league) the player is playing in. For example a striker with finishing, technique and composure of '8' in the 3rd division might bag 30 goals a season, but unless trained by a good striking coach to improve his attributes would really struggle in the 1st division.

    My suggestion is that for players to succeed at certain levels they must require high enough attributes in key areas. Lets use the English Leagues as an example.

    For a player to be a good/top player in:
    The Premiership
    '14-20' (At this level high Technical Attributes are essential)

    The Championship
    '11-16'

    League One
    '7-12'

    League Two and Below
    '3-8'

    Obviously the reputation of each league comes into play aswel. The big three, England, Spain and Italy would all have similar structures, then Germany, France, Holland, Portugal would require slightly less in their respective divisions and so on.

    You could also go a step further and in the data have a stat that rates each nations style of play. Eg. Spain is considered to attrct a higher number of technically gifted players, where as England would have fewer technically gifted players but more physical and better tacklers, and Italian teams known to have superior defences to any other european teams.

    This would also make European games more realistic because atm, I think the game favours physical attributes more than technical which is why English teams win the European cups too often.

    This system would mean attributes are changing up and down on a weekly basis depending on confidence, morale, training, personal problems, injuries, motivation, relationship with manager/team mates. Irl, all these without doubt have temporary, if not longer, affects on players abilities

    For me this could solve the problem of a lack of quality regens and place more emphises on training and scouting, particularly of young players from lower divisions, whereas at the moment, it's impossible for a young player in the third division to ever progress unless his PA is set high. I also find that when managing a top club, say Man Utd, you can send scouts out to Africa, Asia, Scandinavia and specify you are looking for players under 20 only for your scout to find none. However by doing a manual search, I always find young players with potential in their attributes but deep down I know they will never make it at a high level because the scouts in the game are looking for the PA

    I also think it's time for height and weight to become a realistic factor, and not just cosmetic text. I often see 15 year old regen center backs who are 6'3, while not impossible, most teens have a growth spurt at 18,19,20. Young players body's change so much which can have a huge affect on their footballing abilities.

    I hope I have put my points across well. I found it more difficult than I thought to explain what I was thinking. Please let me know what you think and continue to add suggestions.

    Thanks

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    Another post where people think that everyone can be trained to be perfect!!!

    There are certain things where you can't get any better hence to code a game correctly you need to give it a boundary hence PA.

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    just don't agree on changing attributes on weekly basis. that's not realistic. then form and moral wouldn't important anymore...I hope this makes sense.

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    I'm with stumostro on this one, not everybody can be trained to be a top flight player, even if they have the best coaches in the world. Having the PA there means that only the players IRL that do have the potential (as highlighed by the researchers) excel in the game.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    Another post where people think that everyone can be trained to be perfect!!!

    There are certain things where you can't get any better hence to code a game correctly you need to give it a boundary hence PA.


    lol

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    if someone has finishing 5 at age of 18, how the .... can he have 20 at any age.

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    not to mention that of CA/PA system you constantly get unrealisticly over rated players.

    ex. look at aimar or djourou on editor and then in the game. you'll see every atribute is higher by 2 points in the game. that's becouse CA is more important then his atributes. I can't believe SI didn't sort it long time ago.

    without CA/PA system, everything would be more realistic, you would have to gamble with transfers.....it's so stupid to have realy "promising" 18 year old kid but you just know he want be any good becouse his PA sucks, common...

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    if someone has finishing 5 at age of 18, how the .... can he have 20 at any age.


    That was the point i was making!!

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    without CA/PA system, everything would be more realistic, you would have to gamble with transfers.....it's so stupid to have realy "promising" 18 year old kid but you just know he want be any good becouse his PA sucks, common...


    Don't look at the PA then!!! That way its still a gamble!!!

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    I'm so tired of disccusing this metter, so I won't.

    I told everything I had to up there. the only smart argument you can give me is that, the game needs this system, for now. and I can accept it. but it's not realistic

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    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    without CA/PA system, everything would be more realistic, you would have to gamble with transfers.....it's so stupid to have realy "promising" 18 year old kid but you just know he want be any good becouse his PA sucks, common...


    Don't look at the PA then!!! That way its still a gamble!!!


    you just don't get it. bye

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    What you are suggesting is an ability system with no spine in it, it's just limp and floppy with no way of controlling it.

    There have to be limits in player progression or decline. PA and CA provide that. Whether people like it or not certain players will NEVER progress beyong the level they are at. They simply do not have the potential no matter what environment they are put in.

    I hope we don't ever see fluctuating attributes either. In fact I campaigned against the fluctuating atrributes that the training produced three or four versions back.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    I'm so tired of disccusing this metter, so I won't.

    I told everything I had to up there. the only smart argument you can give me is that, the game needs this system, for now. and I can accept it. but it's not realistic


    It IS realistic. What isn't realistic is the steady improvement of players, rather than peaks and troughs of improvement.

    Promising players often turn out to be average or even poor later on. Looking at the PA is not meant to be part of the game. It's like reading the last page of a book, then complaining that the book is too predictable.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Jay The Sheriff:
    I'm with stumostro on this one, not everybody can be trained to be a top flight player, even if they have the best coaches in the world. Having the PA there means that only the players IRL that do have the potential (as highlighed by the researchers) excel in the game.


    Im not saying that every player will have the potential to be a top player, quite the opposite, very few will. But this way players can improve and progress through divisions with a combination of form, growth, confidence, training instead of AI clubs just looking for CA/PA. This would also solve the international problem of coaches only looking at CA and not form.

    The point you made about the researches only giving high PA to the players with potential is exactly whats wrong with this game! It's the players that are showing potential for the 07/08 season!! What about young players irl who will develop into top players over the next few years who arn't rated in FM08. Wayne Rooney in CM01/02 is the prime example of this.

    Surely you agree that the game should have other variables in youth development and not pre-determined ability, it's crazy

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    without CA/PA system, everything would be more realistic, you would have to gamble with transfers.....it's so stupid to have realy "promising" 18 year old kid but you just know he want be any good becouse his PA sucks, common...


    Don't look at the PA then!!! That way its still a gamble!!!


    you just don't get it. bye


    I don't get what? That by using a pice of 3rd party software to look at a hidden stat its ruining the game because you know exactly whos good and whos bad???

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    CA and PA are the most realistic system I can ever see the game having. There are problems with it, but these need to be ironed out, not the whole system replaced.

    Previously, players were all reaching their PA eventually. This was a problem, but has been reduced in FM08. IMO it still happens too much, but that's by the by.

    Now, players don't seem to develop at realistic speeds. The standard of coaches/training doesn't seem to make any difference, and there are far too many 18 year olds that the scouts say 'isn't likely to improve in the future'. Players should be majorly influenced by the standard of training they receive, and the vast vast vast majority of players should improve between 18 and 21.

    Also, CA and PA play too large a role in the performance of players, and the way they are judged by scouts. Scouts should see the same set of stats that we do, and make judgements on this. Player potential should be a lot more hit-and-miss: while you may be able to tell how much a player is likely to improve to a degree by looking at his work ethic or similar character traits, a lot of it comes down to looking at his ability compared to players of a similar age. My scout should be saying 'he is good at shooting now, and given that he is only 16 he has plenty of room for improvement. Sign him up', not looking at PA and judging accordingly (taking account of the random factor introduced by the scouts stats). Similarly, all game mechanics (i.e. in the match engine) should be based on attributes, not on CA. CA should be the constraining factor for his abilities (in the same way that PA should constrain his maximum possible attributes) but it should not be used by the AI as a judge of his ability.

  18. #18
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    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    without CA/PA system, everything would be more realistic, you would have to gamble with transfers.....it's so stupid to have realy "promising" 18 year old kid but you just know he want be any good becouse his PA sucks, common...


    Don't look at the PA then!!! That way its still a gamble!!!


    you just don't get it. bye


    I don't get what? That by using a pice of 3rd party software to look at a hidden stat its ruining the game because you know exactly whos good and whos bad???


    Also why do people put 'bye' at the end of a sentance when they don't agree with someone? Im entitled to an opinion just like you. If you don't want a discussion don't post anything.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Dar2000:
    Im not saying that every player will have the potential to be a top player, quite the opposite, very few will. But this way players can improve and progress through divisions with a combination of form, growth, confidence, training instead of AI clubs just looking for CA/PA. This would also solve the international problem of coaches only looking at CA and not form.


    Why not just make coaches and scouts take form into account? Surely that is the correct solution to the game's player perception problems?

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    Ben Foster another example, do you think in FM08 you could sign a reserve 22 year old goal keeper from a leauge one side that within 2 seasons will have played for England. Ok I admit, extremely rare irl aswel but possible.

    As for no spine in the system, I can see your point but keeping the CA and doing away with PA would solve this surely?

    That means the game starts with accurate research done but as the seasons go on anything can happen to players abilities as irl. We dont know whats going to happen in the future so why not make it the same in FM.

    It baffles me to be honest considering the game has been around for so long and with what developers can do on computers now a days

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    quote:
    Originally posted by playmaker:
    Why not just make coaches and scouts take form into account? Surely that is the correct solution to the game's player perception problems?


    Exactly, I touched on that in my original post. I said scouts only look for CA/PA and not attributes or form.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by playmaker:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    I'm so tired of disccusing this metter, so I won't.

    I told everything I had to up there. the only smart argument you can give me is that, the game needs this system, for now. and I can accept it. but it's not realistic


    It IS realistic. What isn't realistic is the steady improvement of players, rather than peaks and troughs of improvement.

    Promising players often turn out to be average or even poor later on. Looking at the PA is not meant to be part of the game. It's like reading the last page of a book, then complaining that the book is too predictable.


    I'm not looking at PA, but I assure AI does.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by sten_super:
    CA and PA are the most realistic system I can ever see the game having. There are problems with it, but these need to be ironed out, not the whole system replaced.

    Previously, players were all reaching their PA eventually. This was a problem, but has been reduced in FM08. IMO it still happens too much, but that's by the by.

    Now, players don't seem to develop at realistic speeds. The standard of coaches/training doesn't seem to make any difference, and there are far too many 18 year olds that the scouts say 'isn't likely to improve in the future'. Players should be majorly influenced by the standard of training they receive, and the vast vast vast majority of players should improve between 18 and 21.

    Also, CA and PA play too large a role in the performance of players, and the way they are judged by scouts. Scouts should see the same set of stats that we do, and make judgements on this. Player potential should be a lot more hit-and-miss: while you may be able to tell how much a player is likely to improve to a degree by looking at his work ethic or similar character traits, a lot of it comes down to looking at his ability compared to players of a similar age. My scout should be saying 'he is good at shooting now, and given that he is only 16 he has plenty of room for improvement. Sign him up', not looking at PA and judging accordingly (taking account of the random factor introduced by the scouts stats). Similarly, all game mechanics (i.e. in the match engine) should be based on attributes, not on CA. CA should be the constraining factor for his abilities (in the same way that PA should constrain his maximum possible attributes) but it should not be used by the AI as a judge of his ability.



    stumostro read this....

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    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    quote:
    Originally posted by stumostro:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    without CA/PA system, everything would be more realistic, you would have to gamble with transfers.....it's so stupid to have realy "promising" 18 year old kid but you just know he want be any good becouse his PA sucks, common...


    Don't look at the PA then!!! That way its still a gamble!!!


    you just don't get it. bye


    I don't get what? That by using a pice of 3rd party software to look at a hidden stat its ruining the game because you know exactly whos good and whos bad???


    Also why do people put 'bye' at the end of a sentance when they don't agree with someone? Im entitled to an opinion just like you. If you don't want a discussion don't post anything.


    I was pisted off becouse you didn't put any argument you said only this: "Another post where people think that everyone can be trained to be perfect!!!

    There are certain things where you can't get any better hence to code a game correctly you need to give it a boundary hence PA."


    what is this. argument? Dar2000 put some effort in his post and a quite good one I think. and you said. f... o... you s... m..... f.....

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    quote:
    Originally posted by sten_super:
    Also, CA and PA play too large a role in the performance of players, and the way they are judged by scouts. Scouts should see the same set of stats that we do, and make judgements on this. Player potential should be a lot more hit-and-miss: while you may be able to tell how much a player is likely to improve to a degree by looking at his work ethic or similar character traits, a lot of it comes down to looking at his ability compared to players of a similar age. My scout should be saying 'he is good at shooting now, and given that he is only 16 he has plenty of room for improvement. Sign him up', not looking at PA and judging accordingly (taking account of the random factor introduced by the scouts stats). Similarly, all game mechanics (i.e. in the match engine) should be based on attributes, not on CA. CA should be the constraining factor for his abilities (in the same way that PA should constrain his maximum possible attributes) but it should not be used by the AI as a judge of his ability.


    Good points, I definitly think your on the right track but I dont think CA/PA is as realistic as it can get, as you have said previously

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    quote:
    Originally posted by sten_super:
    CA and PA are the most realistic system I can ever see the game having. There are problems with it, but these need to be ironed out, not the whole system replaced.

    Previously, players were all reaching their PA eventually. This was a problem, but has been reduced in FM08. IMO it still happens too much, but that's by the by.

    Now, players don't seem to develop at realistic speeds. The standard of coaches/training doesn't seem to make any difference, and there are far too many 18 year olds that the scouts say 'isn't likely to improve in the future'. Players should be majorly influenced by the standard of training they receive, and the vast vast vast majority of players should improve between 18 and 21.

    Also, CA and PA play too large a role in the performance of players, and the way they are judged by scouts. Scouts should see the same set of stats that we do, and make judgements on this. Player potential should be a lot more hit-and-miss: while you may be able to tell how much a player is likely to improve to a degree by looking at his work ethic or similar character traits, a lot of it comes down to looking at his ability compared to players of a similar age. My scout should be saying 'he is good at shooting now, and given that he is only 16 he has plenty of room for improvement. Sign him up', not looking at PA and judging accordingly (taking account of the random factor introduced by the scouts stats). Similarly, all game mechanics (i.e. in the match engine) should be based on attributes, not on CA. CA should be the constraining factor for his abilities (in the same way that PA should constrain his maximum possible attributes) but it should not be used by the AI as a judge of his ability.



    stumostro read this....


    What about it?

    What he's saying is that scouts shouldn't just be looking at the PA, which i agree with and from what i have read before it is set so that the scouts don't get it right every time and from my experience they don't. They have recomended me players which have turned out to be duffers.

    My main point is that doing away with CA/PA wouldn't work because there has to be a boundary for the game to work!

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Dar2000:
    Ben Foster another example, do you think in FM08 you could sign a reserve 22 year old goal keeper from a leauge one side that within 2 seasons will have played for England. Ok I admit, extremely rare irl aswel but possible.

    As for no spine in the system, I can see your point but keeping the CA and doing away with PA would solve this surely?

    That means the game starts with accurate research done but as the seasons go on anything can happen to players abilities as irl. We dont know whats going to happen in the future so why not make it the same in FM.

    It baffles me to be honest considering the game has been around for so long and with what developers can do on computers now a days


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but actually instead of removing PA, you're actually in reality suggesting that CA should remain as is and PA should be set to 200/unlimited for EVERY player? To me that is the effect of what you're saying.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Law_Man:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Dar2000:
    Ben Foster another example, do you think in FM08 you could sign a reserve 22 year old goal keeper from a leauge one side that within 2 seasons will have played for England. Ok I admit, extremely rare irl aswel but possible.

    As for no spine in the system, I can see your point but keeping the CA and doing away with PA would solve this surely?

    That means the game starts with accurate research done but as the seasons go on anything can happen to players abilities as irl. We dont know whats going to happen in the future so why not make it the same in FM.

    It baffles me to be honest considering the game has been around for so long and with what developers can do on computers now a days


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but actually instead of removing PA, you're actually in reality suggesting that CA should remain as is and PA should be set to 200/unlimited for EVERY player? To me that is the effect of what you're saying.


    no. this is effect, now.

    CA and PA are the most realistic system I can ever see the game having. There are problems with it, but these need to be ironed out, not the whole system replaced.

    Previously, players were all reaching their PA eventually. This was a problem, but has been reduced in FM08. IMO it still happens too much, but that's by the by.

    Now, players don't seem to develop at realistic speeds. The standard of coaches/training doesn't seem to make any difference, and there are far too many 18 year olds that the scouts say 'isn't likely to improve in the future'. Players should be majorly influenced by the standard of training they receive, and the vast vast vast majority of players should improve between 18 and 21.

    Also, CA and PA play too large a role in the performance of players, and the way they are judged by scouts. Scouts should see the same set of stats that we do, and make judgements on this. Player potential should be a lot more hit-and-miss: while you may be able to tell how much a player is likely to improve to a degree by looking at his work ethic or similar character traits, a lot of it comes down to looking at his ability compared to players of a similar age. My scout should be saying 'he is good at shooting now, and given that he is only 16 he has plenty of room for improvement. Sign him up', not looking at PA and judging accordingly (taking account of the random factor introduced by the scouts stats). Similarly, all game mechanics (i.e. in the match engine) should be based on attributes, not on CA. CA should be the constraining factor for his abilities (in the same way that PA should constrain his maximum possible attributes) but it should not be used by the AI as a judge of his ability.

  29. #29
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Law_Man:
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but actually instead of removing PA, you're actually in reality suggesting that CA should remain as is and PA should be set to 200/unlimited for EVERY player? To me that is the effect of what you're saying.


    Well in a way yes, but I dont think that would improve things at all. By removing it altogether, players development would soley depend on training, training facilities, form confidence etc....

    Obviously irl there are some young players who from an early age we know are going to become world class players because they somehow have pure natural talent, but there are lots of players who because of a number of factors develop late, some in their 20's.

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    I also wanted to ask those of you who say without CA/PA theres no spine, why can't the match engine be programmed on attributes alone, aswell of course as morale and confidence?

    You might say well then anyone with superior attributes will always play well, but if confidence and morale were low on a top player, his 'work rate' and 'teamwork' might drop considerably therefore he's not really interested or giving near 100% of his best. A striker with low confidence would have a low 'finishing' attribute and it would be up to you to find away to moivate him, placing more importance on team talks for example.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Dar2000:
    I also wanted to ask those of you who say without CA/PA theres no spine, why can't the match engine be programmed on attributes alone, aswell of course as morale and confidence?

    You might say well then anyone with superior attributes will always play well, but if confidence and morale were low on a top player, his 'work rate' and 'teamwork' might drop considerably therefore he's not really interested or giving near 100% of his best. A striker with low confidence would have a low 'finishing' attribute and it would be up to you to find away to moivate him, placing more importance on team talks for example.


    The match engine IS programmed on attributes alone. CA and PA only govern how those attributes change over the course of time.

    You can't drop attributes according to low confidence - you would have no idea what level to return them to when confidence returns. Michael Owen when he is lacking confidence might play like a League 2 dtriker, but when he is on his game how do create the obvious gap in class when you have altered his attributes.

    And what would happen mid match when a striker gets his first goal after a barren spell - does the value in the database change? That is simply not practical.

    Morale already has a big effect on performance - you don't need to modify the attributes for that to happen.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Dar2000:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Law_Man:
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but actually instead of removing PA, you're actually in reality suggesting that CA should remain as is and PA should be set to 200/unlimited for EVERY player? To me that is the effect of what you're saying.


    Well in a way yes, but I dont think that would improve things at all. By removing it altogether, players development would soley depend on training, training facilities, form confidence etc....

    Obviously irl there are some young players who from an early age we know are going to become world class players because they somehow have pure natural talent, but there are lots of players who because of a number of factors develop late, some in their 20's.


    Law_Man is absolutely right, there is no difference between every player being set to 200 PA or removing PA totally, yet you say the first way won't work. That doesn't make sense.

    How do you define natural talent if you don't store it a s a value? Ronaldo has more natural talent than Benjani, who has more natural talent than Lee Trundle who has more natural talent than me. You have to have a way of representing that.

  33. #33
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Dar2000:
    I also wanted to ask those of you who say without CA/PA theres no spine, why can't the match engine be programmed on attributes alone, aswell of course as morale and confidence?

    You might say well then anyone with superior attributes will always play well, but if confidence and morale were low on a top player, his 'work rate' and 'teamwork' might drop considerably therefore he's not really interested or giving near 100% of his best. A striker with low confidence would have a low 'finishing' attribute and it would be up to you to find away to moivate him, placing more importance on team talks for example.


    as I see how things go IRE, most important factors on player development are;

    - luck. first thing that everyone needs. injuries, moving clubs, relationships...

    - age and peak. every yongster can improve. some earlier, some later. even old players improve-> experince

    - player can't improve much if he's not playing matches. of course he can improve stamina and strenght... but his mental attributes even decline if he's not playing matches. SAF and wenger know that, that's why they give their youngsters a chance. playing at higher level (against better quality players) is the key.

    <- moving to better leagues. even older player should improve if he moves from croatian to english league, if given the chance to play.

    - everyone's favourite- training facilities (if this is so important, where are english youngsters then, you have best facilities in the world? I'm not sure brazil has the best.I think street is exellant facility)

    - personality. inteligent and dedicated player improves much qiucker that one who's not


    that's about it. there are probably millions of things that influence player's improvement but these are the most important ones.

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    Players don't necessaily improve by playing at a higher level. Some actually get worse.

    Other than that I agree that all those factors should affect player progression. Most do, but the level of effect is debatable.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by playmaker:
    Players don't necessaily improve by playing at a higher level. Some actually get worse.

    Other than that I agree that all those factors should affect player progression. Most do, but the level of effect is debatable.


    of course not necessaily. that's why I said there are millions of factors.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    not to mention that of CA/PA system you constantly get unrealisticly over rated players.

    ex. look at aimar or djourou on editor and then in the game. you'll see every atribute is higher by 2 points in the game. that's becouse CA is more important then his atributes. I can't believe SI didn't sort it long time ago.

    without CA/PA system, everything would be more realistic, you would have to gamble with transfers.....it's so stupid to have realy "promising" 18 year old kid but you just know he want be any good becouse his PA sucks, common...

    why are you talking about realism if you look at their PA?

    no system will be realistic if you use some sort of cheat to look in the code and see how players will develop.

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    read this thread again, if you don't get it.

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    The problem with removing PA is that there is suddenly then no constraint on ability... you could sign a 16 year old pile of rubbish from a League 2 team, train him up in your excellent youth facilities, and after 3 years he's Michael Owen. Whereas all world-class players are players that have played for their country at a range of ages (i.e. U16, U18, U21 etc). They have always had a level of natural ability beyond that of other players; very few players suddenly rise in ability from complete obscurity to stardom.

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    PA is aleays going to be needed in the game. It's the best representation you're going to get of what happens in real life. No arguments here please, by the time a kid's 15 (i.e the point when they would enter the FM world) their natural ability and their surroundings and experiences in the previous 15 years will have pretty much shaped their potential. At this point that kid will have a level where he'll never get any better no matter what happens.

    I always use the same example to try and get people to grasp why PA definitely does exist in real life and it's this; you take ten similar 16 year old players and give them all the same coaching for 5 years. At the end of those 5 years you'll find that they are all at different levels of ability. Some will be much better than others. At least one will stand out above the rest and in the same way at least one will be a lot poorer than the rest. This is because they all had different potential and despite the same training and coaching they all had different points when they became as good as they could get.

    Now what we do need is more players in the database with higher PA but a much more sophisticated development model. This will mean that many players will have the potential to be good, but not all players will reach their potential as many more factors will govern this.

    For more info on my ideas on this have a read of this thread

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    quote:
    Originally posted by sten_super:
    The problem with removing PA is that there is suddenly then no constraint on ability... you could sign a 16 year old pile of rubbish from a League 2 team, train him up in your excellent youth facilities, and after 3 years he's Michael Owen. Whereas all world-class players are players that have played for their country at a range of ages (i.e. U16, U18, U21 etc). They have always had a level of natural ability beyond that of other players; very few players suddenly rise in ability from complete obscurity to stardom.



    why? if you have 2 youngsters with these key atributes (same age);

    - striker 1
    finishing 7, technique 6, anticipation 8, off the ball 8, work rate 5, determination 7.

    I don't see why and how he could turn into world class.


    - striker 2
    fin 11, tech 10, antic 8, off 10, wr 8, deter 16

    now look at this 2 players, it seems that player 2 has much better atributes for being a goog player. but in the current system if player 1 has batter PA then player 2, he's gonna be better, and that's the problem, don't you think so. CA-atributes should determine how good could player be. if he has his finishing atribute 7, there is no way he clould have 20 (not even 13 in my opinoum), no metter training facilities or whatever. so it means that CA at young age also sets PA. for example, cesc or cristiano were so good at age of 15, they could compare to premiership standards. and that's why they had potential. not becouse someone said they have, no one can tell what's gonna happen in future. what if cesc had realy nasty injury at age of 16 and never been given a chance to play for arsenal. what would then be his PA now. 120?

    the other even bigger problem is that AI isn't looking for key atributes, it's looking for CA/PA. changing that system would bring more reality, gambling and working with players. as I said I have no problem accepting this system, but it defenetly isn't realistic.

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    Mitja, that would mean you could immediately tell the future superstars and would completely kill long term games.

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    I don't think I understand you playmaker. what, why?

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    quote:
    Originally posted by playmaker:
    Mitja, that would mean you could immediately tell the future superstars and would completely kill long term games.


    most important factors on player development are;

    - luck. first thing that everyone needs. injuries, moving clubs, relationships...

    - age and peak. every yongster can improve. some earlier, some later. even old players improve-> experince

    - player can't improve much if he's not playing matches. of course he can improve stamina and strenght... but his mental attributes even decline if he's not playing matches. SAF and wenger know that, that's why they give their youngsters a chance. playing at higher level (against better quality players) is the key.

    <- moving to better leagues. even older player should improve if he moves from croatian to english league, if given the chance to play.

    - everyone's favourite- training facilities (if this is so important, where are english youngsters then, you have best facilities in the world? I'm not sure brazil has the best.I think street is exellant facility)

    - personality. inteligent and dedicated player improves much qiucker that one who's not


    that's about it. there are probably millions of things that influence player's improvement but these are the most important ones.


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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    why? if you have 2 youngsters with these key atributes (same age);

    - striker 1
    finishing 7, technique 6, anticipation 8, off the ball 8, work rate 5, determination 7.

    I don't see why and how he could turn into world class.


    - striker 2
    fin 11, tech 10, antic 8, off 10, wr 8, deter 16

    now look at this 2 players, it seems that player 2 has much better atributes for being a goog player. but in the current system if player 1 has batter PA then player 2, he's gonna be better, and that's the problem, don't you think so. CA-atributes should determine how good could player be. if he has his finishing atribute 7, there is no way he clould have 20 (not even 13 in my opinoum), no metter training facilities or whatever. so it means that CA at young age also sets PA. for example, cesc or cristiano were so good at age of 15, they could compare to premiership standards. and that's why they had potential. not becouse someone said they have, no one can tell what's gonna happen in future. what if cesc had realy nasty injury at age of 16 and never been given a chance to play for arsenal. what would then be his PA now. 120?

    the other even bigger problem is that AI isn't looking for key atributes, it's looking for CA/PA. changing that system would bring more reality, gambling and working with players. as I said I have no problem accepting this system, but it defenetly isn't realistic.


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are not asking for the system of CA/PA to be changed at all; just that there is a much closer link between attributes and CA. Which I agree with entirely.

    With regards to playmakers point that you would be able to identify good players from their stats... to a degree that is true, yes. But surely that's how real life scouting works? You watch a player, notice that he has good finishing (or off the ball movement, or composure; it doesn't have to be the 'primary' stat for a position) and think that, given his age and mentality, that he may well be able to improve, so let's sign him up. What I would say is that in order for my suggested earlier system to work, you would need a few things

    i) Much better fog of war. In order to find out about the reserve players at (say) Liverpool, I would need to scout at least 3 of their games. This may even require fuzzy values (i.e. scouts can put a players ability to within 5 points after seeing 1 game, 3 points after 2 games, etc) although I can see that would be a bigger change to the mechanics. However I should not be able to know exactly what a Liverpool U18 prospect is good at just because he plays for Liverpool. This would ensure that it is difficult to pick up all of the good prospects, without a massive scouting network.

    ii) Varying progression over age. Not all players should improve with age. And it must be much much harder to reach PA. This way you could sign up a 15 year old with good stats (for his age) but watch, as due to a lack of application and other effects, only improves slightly (or not at all) and therefore never makes it into the first team.

    iii) Absolutely and totally key to this is that the game (i.e. AI managers, scouts and your own scouts) stop looking at PA and CA. They MUST MUST MUST only be able to see exactly the same things that we see. At the moment it is far too easy to pick up players that are good youth prospects, because you know they have a high PA as the scout says so!

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    yes and no. I still stand at my point that there is no PA in real life. but I know that game is smth different.

    like you said; "You watch a player, notice that he has good finishing (or off the ball movement, or composure; it doesn't have to be the 'primary' stat for a position) and think that, given his age and mentality, that he may well be able to improve, so let's sign him up."

    of course if wanted much improved reality fog of war is needed. and I agree everything you said on that. I would also add that we (AI as well) shouldn't be able to know player's personality to well. smth like (it looks like he might be quite ambitous). of course you would know far more deteils about well known players. that's why I said it would be more gambling system.

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    For me, the problem here is not the CA/PA system, this is fine as is. I perceive two problems. One being the developmental progression of players, and the other being AI and scouting.

    Firstly, on development, it seems that, providing there is room for improvement, all players seem to develop at pretty much the same rate. Rarely do we see a player suddenly see large improvements in his CA, or an 18 year old just stagnate and not achieve his potential. No two players will progress at the same rate, and this needs to be represented better in FM.

    Secondly, on AI managers and scouts, it seems pretty clear that they see PA. Whilst I do not doubt that, with scout reports, more is looked at alongside PA, it seems to me that much of the basis of the report is generated around CA/PA. The entirity of the report needs to be based around how good the player currently is, how good his key positional attributes are, the level he is playing at, and how well he is playing. All to often I have seen scouts recommend players who are playing pretty badly, and in some situation, injured and unable to play.

    As for managers, whilst it could be argued that the manager is acting upon a scout report, when you see an AI manager sign a young centre back with heading of 5 and tackilng or around 8, it certainly seems that the manager is looking at something more then how suited the player is for his position.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    yes and no. I still stand at my point that there is no PA in real life. but I know that game is smth different.


    I don't mean to be rude, but I don't understand this at all. There is a maximum ability level that we all have, it's just that there is no way of knowing it. Hence the FM version comes across as being somewhat arbitrary. It wouldn't matter how long I trained, or how hard I worked, I wouldn't be able to be as good at football as Christiano Ronaldo. The absolute maximum level of my ability is below his. Just look at Choppers example.

    But I think I pretty much agree with everything else you say

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    Very good ideas , i want to contribute mine.
    If the player is from any of the British islands he should get -40 pts of CA/PA and let the engine chop the skills , this will add significantly to realism.

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    bongo-bongo said it all.

    sten super. well this metter we are talking about, maybe it's a difference in our characters and wiews. we don't have to prove each other nothing

    just one thing, did I said you could become like ronaldo. if you look closly at what I wrote you'll see I said what are the factors for improvement. also I never said it's like all players should have set PA to 200. and I agree what you said that "There is a maximum ability level that we all have, it's just that there is no way of knowing it." you said that...well maybe god can

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    yes and no. I still stand at my point that there is no PA in real life. but I know that game is smth different.


    You can't really believe that surely? So everybody has the potential to be the best at football (or anything for that matter) in the world based on certain factors going their way?

    There are factors involved like luck, coaching, enviroment, etc. but THE most important factor is the players PA. That is as good as they can possibly become, it exists IRL but is obviously almost impossible to be 100% accurate with - the researchers generally do a good job of estimating it.

    If you removed PA from the game, not only would it be unrealistic, but it would basically remove any difficulty from the game. If every player could potentially be the best in the world you would simply need to hand-pick the best players from your youth team or the lower leagues and hire the best coaching staff you could. There would be no need for scouts, or signing world class players, you could just manufacture your own.

    There would also be a massive advantage based on the clubs staff and training facilities - in fact that would probably determine which teams did the best.

    There is a reason why real life football doesn't work this way and that's because certain people are better than other people at football. Not everyone can reach the same level based on coaching, enviroment, facilities and 'luck', otherwise every Man United and Arsenal youngster who didn't suffer any major injuries would eventually become a top player.

    It just doesn't work that way.

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    PA is already determined by player's CA. if someone has finishing 5, he CAN'T have it 20 anytime, anyhow. I never said he would.

    or I can put it this way. if some 18 year old kid has CA 80, there is no way he could improve to 180.
    if he's got CA 130 he might have 180. but to set his limit to 135 is dumb, becouse on next FM his PA might turn into 185. and this happened many times.

    far better thing for PA would be a scale system from -1 to -10, for any player not just youngsters. -1 for an old bull, and -10 for best young prospects.

    since this is a game, no problem but in real life only god knows someone's potential, but I'm not a believer, I think everything's random

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    Having had a few good debates with Mitja about PA I can tell you he's not likely to change his stance on PA

    Believe me, I've tried

    Anyway, that being said he does put forward some good arguments. I just don't agree with them for many reasons which I've already said lots of times so won't go into again.
    What I think we're both edging towards though is the idea of a more fluid development model.

    In my version there will be more players with a higher PA, so that more players could become top class. But at the same time a lot more factors would impact development than they do now meaning a lot less players actually would reach their potential.

    In essence you'd end up with pretty much the same number of 180+ CA players as you do now, but being able to tell which players they would end up being would be much more difficult. There would be a lot more players who had haigh PA but never got anywhere near it, as well as youngsters who've started nearing their potential before they're 20 (i.e Messi).

    But in it all there would still be PA, as some value is needed in the game to stop crazy happenings and top teams just constantly churning out top youngsters because they have the best facilities.

  53. #53
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    PA is already determined by player's CA. if someone has finishing 5, he CAN'T have it 20 anytime, anyhow. I never said he would.

    or I can put it this way. if some 18 year old kid has CA 80, there is no way he could improve to 180.
    if he's got CA 130 he might have 180. but to set his limit to 135 is dumb
    , becouse on next FM his PA might turn into 185. and this happened many times.



    Why should a player be limited in this way? You say a player with a CA or 80 CAN'T reach 180, well how high can he reach then? There has to be a cap somewhere, but there will be plenty of 18 year olds with a low CA who can become world stars, similarly there are a high number of young players with a similar CA who won't/can't reach the same heights.

    You can't just say Player X has a CA of 80 he can't reach a PA of Y and leave it open-ended. There has to be a limit in place.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    far better thing for PA would be a scale system from -1 to -10, for any player not just youngsters. -1 for an old bull, and -10 for best young prospects.


    There -1 to -10 is a better system for young players - and is widely used for young players. There's no need to have it in for more established players where it's easier to judge their potential. It would be silly to give C. Ronaldo a potential of -10 when it's clear to anybody that potentially he is one of the best in the world (certainly he's there already).

    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    since this is a game, no problem but in real life only god knows someone's potential, but I'm not a believer, I think everything's random


    The concept of 'potential' in the real world shouldn't be that hard to grasp - I don't want to debate it too much because the concept doesn't really have a lot to do with FM and therefore needn't be discussed in any great length on here.

    In a footballing sense is perhaps one of the easier areas to see that everybody does have a 'cap' on how good they can be. Similarly in an academic sense - if everybody is equal then how come there are people that are naturally more intelligent that others? I consider myself fairly intelligent - I have a GCSE's, A-levels and a degree - but there are many people who are far more intelligent that I am.

    With regards to football, even with the best coaching in the world in the best facilities with the greatest will in the world I wouldn't have become a professional footballer. I'd have probably been somewhat better than I am now (ie I'd have a greater 'current ability') but my potential will always stop me from reaching the heights of a Ronaldo or Kaka.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by KK2003:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    PA is already determined by player's CA. if someone has finishing 5, he CAN'T have it 20 anytime, anyhow. I never said he would.

    or I can put it this way. if some 18 year old kid has CA 80, there is no way he could improve to 180.
    if he's got CA 130 he might have 180. but to set his limit to 135 is dumb
    , becouse on next FM his PA might turn into 185. and this happened many times.



    Why should a player be limited in this way? You say a player with a CA or 80 CAN'T reach 180, well how high can he reach then? There has to be a cap somewhere, but there will be plenty of 18 year olds with a low CA who can become world stars, similarly there are a high number of young players with a similar CA who won't/can't reach the same heights.

    You can't just say Player X has a CA of 80 he can't reach a PA of Y and leave it open-ended. There has to be a limit in place.


    This is, I think, the key part that I don't agree with Mitja on. If you have an open-ended system, constraining development would be a lot more difficult. For example, you would have to stop any development beyond the age of (say) 23, in order to stop all players becoming uber-good. But then you prevent the creation of any "slow-burners", players that get steadily better with age (e.g. Luca Toni). So you can't use that. How do you stop all players improving infinitely?

    At the risk of repeating myself, there should definitely be a link between CA and PA (to ensure that you get a spread of youth players, some of whom are good enough to go into the first team almost straight away, while at the same time ensuring that they have room for development). But PA is a realistic and entirely necessary way of capping player ability.

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    Mitja - just to go back to real life for a second (as in fact that is what FM is trying to replicate), when you say that we should have potential ability, what are your views on say a young kid's:

    (a) Genetics
    (i) Intelligence
    (ii) Physical: size, speed, injury
    proness

    (b) Home environment

    (c) Personality/general outlook on life/keeness

    (d) other talents/interests outside of football


    For me, (a)(i) intelligence: is fixed.
    Alot of (a)(ii) i.e. injury proness, size etc is fixed. Although strength and stamina can speed to a lesser extent can be improved with training.
    (b) whilst technically not fixed, in most cases will not change.
    (c) Again, in general this is fixed from a fairly early age and is unlikely to dramatically change in real life (contrary to the 'magic' of FM tutoring....lol)
    (d)many good footballers could have gone on to play other types of sport and the intelligent ones could even go onto other professions. Indeed, often you find other sportsman who were in football club youth academies when they were younger.

    All of the above points to potential being fixed. Certainly I think by the age of say 15 (i.e. when you get players under your control in FM) then potential is much more fixed too.

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    Just to add to that, in the majority of cases of top top players such as Rooney or Owen, the coaches coaching them knew at a very early age that they were going to be top players. The same coaches also knew that perhaps the majority of their academy 'class-mates' weren't going to be absolute top players. Once in a while a coach might be wrong about a player (a la Andy Johnson - although saying that I don't really count him as a top top player like a Rooney or an Owen) but in general the coaches know what they're doing.

    Again, this points to fixed potential ability. I think the best way to avoid having problems with potential ability is not to use FMM or something similar to find out potential ability as it takes some of the realism away.

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    Anyone who thinks PA is unrealistic just doesn't understand the first thing about human development.
    The use of CA and PA is the simplest way to achieve realistic results. The development model still needs a lot of work, but that's not a flaw of the system.


    Within 20-50 years, the various genetic markers that identify your footballing potential (for example) will be identifiable.
    We could have a world where your school careers day is much more definite!

    The question isn't one for science, it's for ethics committees and governments.

  58. #58
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    law man

    I don't think anything is fixed or predetermined in life. oportunities, work an a little bit of luck. no one can tell where's the limit.

    I remember reading interwiew with Zidane. he said there were planty of players who were better then him, when he was young. but he succeded. I don't know why. Zidane said that. I don't think he just standed there and waited for his PA to show up. I think what he wanted to say is that everyone can succed.

    anyway I don't think is that important to argue here about this. you think there is PA in life, I think there isn't. I don't see any problem. we are different we come from diffrerent mentalities, different culture...and everything's ok. we have good proverb in our country; "do you know what was first, a chicken or an egg".


    Dave C

    "Within 20-50 years, the various genetic markers that identify your footballing potential (for example) will be identifiable.
    We could have a world where your school careers day is much more definite!"

    - let's hope that day doesn't come, lol

  59. #59
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    Dave C

    "Within 20-50 years, the various genetic markers that identify your footballing potential (for example) will be identifiable.
    We could have a world where your school careers day is much more definite!"

    - let's hope that day doesn't come, lol



    If SI will permit this little wander off-topic, I agree.
    I think hope/ambition is one of the most important aspects of humanity, and there are examples of people who have surpassed their genetic limitations through sheer force of will.
    On the otherhand, even within your genetic limitations your options aren't likely to be especially narrow. If you are suited to one sport (for instance) there will be plenty of other areas the same gentic skill set will translate to with a different training path.

  60. #60
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    I remember reading interwiew with Zidane. he said there were planty of players who were better then him, when he was young. but he succeded. I don't know why. Zidane said that. I don't think he just standed there and waited for his PA to show up. I think what he wanted to say is that everyone can succed.


    Right, when Zidane was younger there may have been players better than him. And no he didn't just 'stand there and wait for his PA to show up' he had to work hard to reach that level, but the reason he did so was because he had the potential to get there.

    Not everyone can succeed. Not everybody can become a professional footballer. Are you seriously saying that with a little more hard work when you were younger (I've no idea how old you are now mind) that you could have become a professional footballer? If you honestly believe that then you are living in a fantasy world.

    It's nice to tell everyone that they can succeed, and obviously people have to work very hard to reach their peak, but at the end of the day everybody has a peak and everybody's peak is different.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    law man

    I don't think anything is fixed or predetermined in life. oportunities, work an a little bit of luck. no one can tell where's the limit.

    I remember reading interwiew with Zidane. he said there were planty of players who were better then him, when he was young. but he succeded. I don't know why. Zidane said that. I don't think he just standed there and waited for his PA to show up. I think what he wanted to say is that everyone can succed.

    anyway I don't think is that important to argue here about this. you think there is PA in life, I think there isn't. I don't see any problem. we are different we come from diffrerent mentalities, different culture...and everything's ok. we have good proverb in our country; "do you know what was first, a chicken or an egg".


    Dave C

    "Within 20-50 years, the various genetic markers that identify your footballing potential (for example) will be identifiable.
    We could have a world where your school careers day is much more definite!"

    - let's hope that day doesn't come, lol


    Hi Mitja, we have that proverb too

    Don't worry I wasn't trying to have an argument, was just explaining things as I see them.

    The reason that Zidane (but Gary Neville is a MUCH) better example succeeded is because they have fairly rare mental attributes that most of the people around them didn't have. This is a personality trait (i.e. extreme determination in the case of Neville) that is rare, and is established a visible from an early age. It is fixed. You can't learn it on a training ground or in a book. You either are like that or you aren't. One of the ways FM tries to replicate this is that if two players have the same PA, and the same training facilities, the one with higher determination (Zidane, Neville a lot of top players generally in any sport, or indeed most people at the pinnacle of any profession or walk of life) will get closest to reaching their potential or indeed reach it.

    The fact that Gary Neville was so ultra determined and focused made him train hard and put everything he had into becoming a Man Utd player. It was that determination that gave him the potential to become a Man Utd player. It was then the guidance of his family, of Ferguson, and the coaching and facilities of Man Utd that allowed him to use his determination to achieve it.

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    It would be farcical if FM operated a system whereby you had a lazy, unambitious, physically and technically weak 18 year old at a poor club, but given some miraculous events like being tutored by someone who is determined, and then transferred to a top team and then given some high quality training that they would then achieve a really high potential in the same way that a ultra determined, previously well coached and therefore technically proficient 18 year old who had been at a top club all his playing life would. That is just not real life I'm afraid and therefore FM does not doesn't work like that.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Law_Man:
    It would be farcical if FM operated a system whereby you had a lazy, unambitious, physically and technically weak 18 year old at a poor club, but given some miraculous events like being tutored by someone who is determined, and then transferred to a top team and then given some high quality training that they would then achieve a really high potential in the same way that a ultra determined, previously well coached and therefore technically proficient 18 year old who had been at a top club all his playing life would. That is just not real life I'm afraid and therefore FM does not doesn't work like that.


    thanks for proving me right. I agree. that's what is happening now. becouse of PA.

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    in the current system, does the CA rise at the same speed after 23?

    If a player has a high PA but languishes in a bad team with little first team experience between the ages of 16-21 (meaning his CA stagnates), if he moved to better training facilities etc which would allow his CA to improve, would he still be able to meet his PA but just at a very late age? Is this possible?

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    I think he should be able IRE. but in the game, I don't know.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:

    I remember reading interwiew with Zidane. he said there were planty of players who were better then him, when he was young. but he succeded. I don't know why. Zidane said that. I don't think he just standed there and waited for his PA to show up. I think what he wanted to say is that everyone can succed.


    And this is exactly what blows your earlier argument about potential being decided by stats at an early age right out of the water.

    You said:

    quote:
    PA is already determined by player's CA. if someone has finishing 5, he CAN'T have it 20 anytime, anyhow. I never said he would.

    or I can put it this way. if some 18 year old kid has CA 80, there is no way he could improve to 180.
    if he's got CA 130 he might have 180.


    But as your Zidane example proves, attributes at a young age aren't always what really decide how good a kid is going to be in the future. Zidane would have been the kid with the CA of 80 that you said couldn't possibly reach a 185 PA. And his friends at the time may have had a CA of 100+. But their PA would have only been perhaps 120 so they never made it, despite being better than Zidane at the time. But because Zidane always had the potential he just kept getting better and became world class.

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    quote:
    Mitja wrote:

    quote:
    Originally posted by Law_Man:
    It would be farcical if FM operated a system whereby you had a lazy, unambitious, physically and technically weak 18 year old at a poor club, but given some miraculous events like being tutored by someone who is determined, and then transferred to a top team and then given some high quality training that they would then achieve a really high potential in the same way that a ultra determined, previously well coached and therefore technically proficient 18 year old who had been at a top club all his playing life would. That is just not real life I'm afraid and therefore FM does not doesn't work like that.


    thanks for proving me right. I agree. that's what is happening now. becouse of PA.


    No. No it isn't. If they were unambitious with low mental/technical attributes they would have either a low PA or have little chance of reaching it. Your arguments are fantastic. But your arrogance is breathtaking.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by DonnyNoel:
    quote:
    Mitja wrote:

    quote:
    Originally posted by Law_Man:
    It would be farcical if FM operated a system whereby you had a lazy, unambitious, physically and technically weak 18 year old at a poor club, but given some miraculous events like being tutored by someone who is determined, and then transferred to a top team and then given some high quality training that they would then achieve a really high potential in the same way that a ultra determined, previously well coached and therefore technically proficient 18 year old who had been at a top club all his playing life would. That is just not real life I'm afraid and therefore FM does not doesn't work like that.


    thanks for proving me right. I agree. that's what is happening now. becouse of PA.


    No. No it isn't. If they were unambitious with low mental/technical attributes they would have either a low PA or have little chance of reaching it. Your arguments are fantastic. But your arrogance is breathtaking.


    I don't think it's important what system there is, more important thing is that it works. my main offence to this system is that everything spins around CA/PA and that isn't realistic at all. performance, stats and atributes are things to be watched, not just CA/PA. and I have nothing more to add about player improvment, I said it all.

  69. #69
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    I don't think it's important what system there is, more important thing is that it works. my main offence to this system is that everything spins around CA/PA and that isn't realistic at all. performance, stats and atributes are things to be watched, not just CA/PA. and I have nothing more to add about player improvment, I said it all.


    This is undoubtedly the key. Although everything should continue to spin around CA/PA, it's just that CA and attributes should be much more closely related, and everything should then feed off from this.

  70. #70
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    quote:
    I don't think it's important what system there is, more important thing is that it works. my main offence to this system is that everything spins around CA/PA and that isn't realistic at all. performance, stats and atributes are things to be watched, not just CA/PA. and I have nothing more to add about player improvment, I said it all.

    The thing is the current system does revolve around performance, stats and attributes - as these are all you have access to as manager, you're not supposed to know the CA and PA of players, they are there is the background to provide the boundaries.

    Also players stats are linked to their CA, hence why some stats will be altered from those that appear in the database to match their CA.

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