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Thread: Regen creation - Positions

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    Default Regen creation - Positions

    Not sure if this is a just me but I've always though someone who can play AMC "naturally" is usually ok to play central midfield. Same goes with players who can play only AMR/AML naturally, you'd expect them to be at least ok in a MR/ML position.

    Problem is at the moment I've picked up what my scouts said was a really good regen. But he is purely AMC, which I think doesn't really make any sense. Could you honestly say that someone can play perfectly well in the centre of midfield foward a bit, but when it comes to playing just a little bit back, they lose all ability and are lost at sea? Or am I just being pedantic?

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Yes you are.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by DanTheMan999 View Post
    Not sure if this is a just me but I've always though someone who can play AMC "naturally" is usually ok to play central midfield. Same goes with players who can play only AMR/AML naturally, you'd expect them to be at least ok in a MR/ML position.

    Problem is at the moment I've picked up what my scouts said was a really good regen. But he is purely AMC, which I think doesn't really make any sense. Could you honestly say that someone can play perfectly well in the centre of midfield foward a bit, but when it comes to playing just a little bit back, they lose all ability and are lost at sea? Or am I just being pedantic?
    Ignore the second post. I agree with you TBF. It's really strange that someone can play in AMR position and then look tottaly lost at MR. Well at least that's according to game.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    No I get that as well. I guess retraining them to play in the middle would do the job.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by arsenalboy View Post
    No I get that as well. I guess retraining them to play in the middle would do the job.
    It would take ages for someone who is ineffectual in some position to become acomplshed, let alone becoming natural.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Does he mean the regen can play only one position? I have seen some of them, yeah it's stupid I think.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Yes, that's what he means.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Why is it stupid for a young player to only have the tactical knowledge to play in one position only? Maybe he is from a country where AM C is used alot and that is the only position he has experience of. I think that it would be stupid to assume a player with that sort of tactical upbringing would for some reason have tactical awareness to play in a completely different role. Because AM C and MC are completely different roles. It's not like your asking a player to play 'just abit behind' where he would usually play. Same with AM R/L. For me that position is attacking only with barely any defending. Why would you assume that a player would just know how to play M R/L which again is a very different position.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    I didn't say natural AMR should be also natural MR. They are not that different positions TBF. All I'm sayin' is that natural AMR in at least 70% of cases should be at least Competent in MR.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabio MVP View Post
    I didn't say natural AMR should be also natural MR.
    I didn't accuse you of saying this. Maybe they should be in 70% of cases like you say. Maybe this is one of 30% of cases where they have no knowledge of it at all.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Agree with you totaly. Its like players who can play Central Defender and Center Mid but cant play at all as defensive midfielder

    I also think that someone who can play as a Right midfielder for example, should at least 'Competent' at playing left Midfielder. They will be less effective because they have to cut back onto their stronger foot, but they should be able to play there.

    Just my opinion though

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Well maybe the particular player OP was saying about is in those 30%. But, the problem is that these percents we're talking about are reversed. So, in 30% you'll find that AMR's are at least Competent in MR and in 70% they can't play MR at all. Which is not logical at all IMO.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    well regens are young lads, you can most likely train them to the new position fairly easily. When you are given lemons make lemonade.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    It takes away their overral training percentage by training them to new position. It would take ages to train them to at least Acomplished. It depends on their Versatility how quickly are they going to become natural. So, that is not an option IMO.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    There's not alot you can do then. Either a player has experience of playing in a position or he doesn't. Like I have said before, playing in one position shouldn't automatically mean that he has the tactical experience or knowledge to play in another. The only exception has already been mentioned where a player who plays on one side should be able to play of the other because tactically it is the same position.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    The regen positions odd.

    I've had a decent looking regen come through my academy and he's a natural CM and ST but he's ineffective in CAM...

    Can't understand it

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    It's not uncommon e.g. Sebastian Giovinco.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by brookie1402 View Post
    There's not alot you can do then. Either a player has experience of playing in a position or he doesn't. Like I have said before, playing in one position shouldn't automatically mean that he has the tactical experience or knowledge to play in another. The only exception has already been mentioned where a player who plays on one side should be able to play of the other because tactically it is the same position.
    That's a fair point - never thought of that. I suppose technically it is the same position tactically but the difference between a left-footed left-back and a right-footed right-back playing left-back is massive. Not so much in wingers other that the quality of crossing.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Because CM and ST are both very different positions from AMC tactically. You shouldn't assume that a player has the tactical knowledge to play in a poisition if he has never played there before.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    There are plenty of AMC's that I would never dream of playing as an MC. Someones already mentioned Giovinco, but there are others through the years, would any of you put Totti as an MC? Or Roberto Baggio? Ronaldinho, anyone?
    I agree on the AMR vs MR thing, there really isn't enough difference, just moving up the pitch a little, but with AMC, I think that this can be a little more specialised.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by brookie1402 View Post
    Because CM and ST are both very different positions from AMC tactically. You shouldn't assume that a player has the tactical knowledge to play in a poisition if he has never played there before.
    I know but it's odd that a player is natural in CM and ST but inbetween those positions somehow CAM is inexistent to that player.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Funny thing with those three, are that they are all players you'd put in that lovely hole, which is different, I would say, to a attacking midfielder.

    Obviously the engine doesn't see it that way.

    What about WBRL - DRL and SW-DC. I see a lot of regens that can only play as a sweeper (?) and a few that can only play at wingback.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by DanTheMan999 View Post
    Funny thing with those three, are that they are all players you'd put in that lovely hole, which is different, I would say, to a attacking midfielder.

    Obviously the engine doesn't see it that way.

    What about WBRL - DRL and SW-DC. I see a lot of regens that can only play as a sweeper (?) and a few that can only play at wingback.
    Yep, I have a great regen wing-back, great stats to play as a traditional full-back. Very frustrating. I could maybe understand if he was from a nation which traditional play with wing-backs - maybe Brazil - but he's English.

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    Question Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabio MVP View Post
    It takes away their overral training percentage by training them to new position. It would take ages to train them to at least Acomplished. It depends on their Versatility how quickly are they going to become natural. So, that is not an option IMO.
    Whats an overall training percentage? ive never heard of this!

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    if you train a player for a position that takes 10% of his training, if you train him a PPM it takes 20%. he won't develop so much at training because he has less time for it.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by DanTheMan999 View Post
    Funny thing with those three, are that they are all players you'd put in that lovely hole, which is different, I would say, to a attacking midfielder.

    Obviously the engine doesn't see it that way.

    What about WBRL - DRL and SW-DC. I see a lot of regens that can only play as a sweeper (?) and a few that can only play at wingback.
    Your right, but that was the way I was looking at it. How would FM see them? As AMC's.
    I have seen the craziness of sweeper only regens and laughed. Are they lost in time from 1960's Italy or something?

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Yeah I totally agree with the OP. Its also annoying when a player can play as a CB and a CM but not a DM. I posted a thread a week or so ago where I had a player who could play LB, ML, and AML but he could not play LWB! Its pretty silly for me!

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabio MVP View Post
    It takes away their overral training percentage by training them to new position. It would take ages to train them to at least Acomplished. It depends on their Versatility how quickly are they going to become natural. So, that is not an option IMO.
    You can't spare at most 6 months training a 16-17 year old a new position?

    If they are any good in the first place, 10% towards a new position isn't magically going to make the kid be a bust. His adaptability is another thing though, some people can pick up new positions very quickly, it's a part of the game, use it.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by Montanaro View Post
    You can't spare at most 6 months training a 16-17 year old a new position?

    If they are any good in the first place, 10% towards a new position isn't magically going to make the kid be a bust. His adaptability is another thing though, some people can pick up new positions very quickly, it's a part of the game, use it.
    Loving that sarcastic smiley of yours. Too bad you don't know that it would take about 2 years for player to become Natural in position if he is currently Ineffectual in that position. Oh, and it's his Versatility that matters, not Adaptability. ;)

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    I think it's a little strange myself, but just something you'll have to work with. I've had DC/Strikers before, certainly odd.

    I think most people could wait for a regen to get at least competent in a position. Not many youngsters pressing for playing time, and if they are, they will usually see the field regardless (which helps with the position training.)

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    I agree with you totally, i even find when i first buy the game i have to go into editor and sort out some positions of players that are already on the game.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by Montanaro View Post
    I think it's a little strange myself, but just something you'll have to work with. I've had DC/Strikers before, certainly odd.

    I think most people could wait for a regen to get at least competent in a position. Not many youngsters pressing for playing time, and if they are, they will usually see the field regardless (which helps with the position training.)

    There's at least one player on the database who is a 'natural' MC and a 'competent' goalkeeper! The difficulty is that you only get to see his outfield stats of course.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by nev147 View Post
    Yeah I totally agree with the OP. Its also annoying when a player can play as a CB and a CM but not a DM. I posted a thread a week or so ago where I had a player who could play LB, ML, and AML but he could not play LWB! Its pretty silly for me!
    I don't understand why you find this silly. A player can only play in a position where he has played previously and where he has experience of playing. You shouldn't assume that just because a player has the tactical awareness and knowledge to play as a MC and as a DC that he should be able to play as a DMC. It is a different position tactically and as such it would require the player to gain experience of playing there before he becomes competant. Which is where the retrain position feature comes in. If a regen is created with natural for any position you have to assume that he has been developed specifically to play in that role during his football upbringing and therefore only has the tactical awareness and knowledge of that role. Expecting him to be able to somehow be able to understand a role that he has had no training or upbringing in to me is unrealistic just because it is close to where he knows how to play.

    Each position on the pitch has very different tactical roles, at least the one's that you are describing. It isn't just a case of a MC playing abit further back on the pitch to be a DMC. The tactics involved in both positions are different. The positioning is different, when to press the ball is different, how you distribute the ball is different. I understand it that when you play a footballer in a different position than he is used to it is his mental attributes that would be effected, as he would still be using his technical abilities, and physical abilities no matter where he is on the pitch. However, I would guess that things like anticipation, positioning, decision, etc are effected as he doesn't know that role as he has had no tactical training or experience in it.

    This is just a guess and what my understanding of it is and it makes sense to me. Feel free to debate if you think I'm wrong.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by Montanaro View Post
    I think it's a little strange myself, but just something you'll have to work with. I've had DC/Strikers before, certainly odd.

    I think most people could wait for a regen to get at least competent in a position. Not many youngsters pressing for playing time, and if they are, they will usually see the field regardless (which helps with the position training.)
    To be fair, there did use to be the odd 1 or 2 DC/ST in real life. Richard Naylor for Ipswich and there was a Danish fellow whose name I think was Karadas who plays in both. Spent some time at Portsmouth iirc.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by DanTheMan999 View Post
    To be fair, there did use to be the odd 1 or 2 DC/ST in real life. Richard Naylor for Ipswich and there was a Danish fellow whose name I think was Karadas who plays in both. Spent some time at Portsmouth iirc.
    Chris Samba at Blackburn has played a few games up front.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by brookie1402 View Post
    Chris Samba at Blackburn has played a few games up front.
    Dion Dublin to name another..

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Gary Doherty can allegedly play centre back and up front.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabio MVP View Post
    It would take ages for someone who is ineffectual in some position to become acomplshed, let alone becoming natural.
    I retrained a LWB regen to accomplihed LB in like 15 games

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by edgar555 View Post
    Gary Doherty can allegedly play centre back and up front.
    I like lol...

    In my opinion... As a Spurs fan... He can't play in either ;)

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by arsenalboy View Post
    No I get that as well. I guess retraining them to play in the middle would do the job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabio MVP View Post
    It would take ages for someone who is ineffectual in some position to become acomplshed, let alone becoming natural.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabio MVP View Post
    I didn't say natural AMR should be also natural MR. They are not that different positions TBF. All I'm sayin' is that natural AMR in at least 70% of cases should be at least Competent in MR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masterstroke View Post
    I retrained a LWB regen to accomplihed LB in like 15 games
    The younger players are the quicker they should be able to learn a position. I had no problem with them taking overly long so far.

    Actually, more than 70% of AMRs should be competent as a MR at least. That figure might be okay as a rate for accomplished ones but I figure that even that might be too low. Imho hardly any AMR should be useless as a MR.

    On top of that, even in this thread I can see no evidence that this problem affects more than 5% of the regens, so it might after all be pretty okay already.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by Masterstroke View Post
    I retrained a LWB regen to accomplihed LB in like 15 games
    What was the description in Positions for LB? Surley not Ineffectual.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by jayahr View Post
    The younger players are the quicker they should be able to learn a position. I had no problem with them taking overly long so far.

    Actually, more than 70% of AMRs should be competent as a MR at least. That figure might be okay as a rate for accomplished ones but I figure that even that might be too low. Imho hardly any AMR should be useless as a MR.

    On top of that, even in this thread I can see no evidence that this problem affects more than 5% of the regens, so it might after all be pretty okay already.
    Yes, younger players are easier to retrain, but still it takes a lot of time and percentage of their training schedule when it's most important for them to train properly.

    You're just confirming what I said about 70%, which of course I agree with.

    And TBH mate, there are more then 5% of players like mentioned before.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by brookie1402 View Post
    I don't understand why you find this silly. A player can only play in a position where he has played previously and where he has experience of playing. You shouldn't assume that just because a player has the tactical awareness and knowledge to play as a MC and as a DC that he should be able to play as a DMC. It is a different position tactically and as such it would require the player to gain experience of playing there before he becomes competant. Which is where the retrain position feature comes in. If a regen is created with natural for any position you have to assume that he has been developed specifically to play in that role during his football upbringing and therefore only has the tactical awareness and knowledge of that role. Expecting him to be able to somehow be able to understand a role that he has had no training or upbringing in to me is unrealistic just because it is close to where he knows how to play.

    Each position on the pitch has very different tactical roles, at least the one's that you are describing. It isn't just a case of a MC playing abit further back on the pitch to be a DMC. The tactics involved in both positions are different. The positioning is different, when to press the ball is different, how you distribute the ball is different. I understand it that when you play a footballer in a different position than he is used to it is his mental attributes that would be effected, as he would still be using his technical abilities, and physical abilities no matter where he is on the pitch. However, I would guess that things like anticipation, positioning, decision, etc are effected as he doesn't know that role as he has had no tactical training or experience in it.

    This is just a guess and what my understanding of it is and it makes sense to me. Feel free to debate if you think I'm wrong.
    You make some valid points brookie but what do you say to the screenie below:


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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by nev147 View Post
    You make some valid points brookie but what do you say to the screenie below:


    lol now that makes ZERO sense

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    ROFL...Footballers from another planet eh?

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by DanTheMan999 View Post
    To be fair, there did use to be the odd 1 or 2 DC/ST in real life. Richard Naylor for Ipswich and there was a Danish fellow whose name I think was Karadas who plays in both. Spent some time at Portsmouth iirc.
    Azar Karadas is Norwegian ;)

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by nev147 View Post
    You make some valid points brookie but what do you say to the screenie below:

    That example is clearly pretty flawed, and I believed we had pretty much eliminated these occurrences. If that’s the only example then we can plausibly put it down to a set of freak circumstances.

    As for a player only being newgend with an AMC position we don’t see too much wrong with that. If you want him to play elsewhere, train him up!

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by Stu Coleman View Post
    That example is clearly pretty flawed, and I believed we had pretty much eliminated these occurrences. If that’s the only example then we can plausibly put it down to a set of freak circumstances.

    As for a player only being newgend with an AMC position we don’t see too much wrong with that. If you want him to play elsewhere, train him up!
    Cheers for that Stu - nice to hear from SI. Its obviously not a big problem - just trying to make FM even better.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    I find it totally annoying that players forget to play the newly learned positions after a while. I don't know whose idea it was, but it is a terrible one imo. Imagine a player who is created
    DC Competent
    DMC Natural
    MC Awkward

    If I start training him in MC position, after a while he will become competent, and in 1-2 years maybe natural. So, at that point he will be
    DC Competent
    DMC Natural
    MC Natural
    From that moment on if I stop re-training him for MC and start playing him only in DMC position, he will rapidly start forgetting the MC position, while he will remain competent in DC position.

    WHY???
    I'm never playing him as DC, so why does he never forget the DC, but he forgets the MC? There is no logical explanation behind this.

    Either eliminate this 'forgetting the position' thing from the game (When a player is retrained in a new position his attributes take a hit. So, making a player more versatile comes at a cost, which makes perfect sense to me. But why make him forget the position? Why punishing him twice?), or the rate at which the player forgets a position should be lowered, and more importantly it should be applied to all the positions and not only on the ones you retrain them at. So, in the above example, if the player is played in DMC position only, he should slowly forget the DC position as well.

    Just my two cents on the subject.

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    Default Re: Regen creation - Positions

    Quote Originally Posted by Montanaro View Post
    well regens are young lads, you can most likely train them to the new position fairly easily. When you are given lemons...
    ... keep them, because hey, free lemons.
    Quote Originally Posted by edgar555 View Post
    There are plenty of AMC's that I would never dream of playing as an MC. Someones already mentioned Giovinco, but there are others through the years, would any of you put Totti as an MC? Or Roberto Baggio? Ronaldinho, anyone?
    I agree on the AMR vs MR thing, there really isn't enough difference, just moving up the pitch a little, but with AMC, I think that this can be a little more specialised.
    Totti, Giovinco and Baggio are/were all strikers, so "moved" the other way, and Ronaldinho was a winger who moved inside, so "moved" laterally. There aren't many players who can only play AMC, though having some is okay (Kaka?)
    Quote Originally Posted by Montanaro View Post
    I think it's a little strange myself, but just something you'll have to work with. I've had DC/Strikers before, certainly odd.
    I don't think that's odd, as long as they have decent jumping- look at Dion Dublin and Chris Sutton (or even Gerard Pique after last night ;)).

    Anyway, to the OP:
    You will not have too many issues if you play him in MC, as long as the things you ask him to do are within his skills set, and involve lots of running forward.

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