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Thread: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

  1. #1
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    Default Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    Hey guys!

    When making my way through the FM database, I noticed one thing. The transcription of Ukrainian and Russian names has been realised in different ways though they are basically the same.


    Examples:

    Russian: Андрей => Andrey
    Ukrainian: Андрій => Andriy

    In fact, both transcriptions mean the same, but are written in a slightly different way as they are not fully the same language.

    I would really appreciate it if there was a consistent translation of those names, in this case either Andrey or Andrej. Andrej would be my personal favourite, but I could live with the other version as well.

    Further examples:
    My preferred version is written in bold.

    Russian: Александр => Aleksandr
    Ukrainian: Олександр => Oleksandr

    Since there's no x in the Russian language, it should be "ks" in the translation. The same goes for Aleksey or Maksim

    Russian: Николай => Nikolaj
    Ukrainian: Микола => Mikola

    Russian: Владимир => Vladimir
    Ukrainian: Володимир => Volodimir

    Russian: Алексей => Aleksey
    Ukrainian: Олексій => Oleksiy

    Russian: Константин => Konstantin
    Ukrainian: Костянтин => Kostyantin

    Russian: Максим => Maksim
    Ukrainian: Максим => Maksim
    In the FM database, this name is written Maxym.

    Russian: Евгений => Evgeniy
    Ukrainian: Євген => Evgen
    In the FM database, this name is written Eugene which is completely wrong.

    Russian: Дмитрий => Dmitrij
    Ukrainian: Дмитро => Dmytro
    If the player is native Ukrainian, Dmytro is the correct transcription in my opinion.

    Russian: Павел => Pavel
    Ukrainian: Павло => Pavlo

    Russian: Михаил => Mikhail
    Ukrainian: Миха́йло => Mykhaylo, Mikhailo

    The family names that end in -ий are transcrpited -yi. Here, the better transcription would be either -yy or -iy of which I prefer -iy as -yy looks strange to me.


    I hope you get my point. In case, I should find more examples, I'll post them here. Let me know what you think of that.
    Last edited by Red_Phoenix; 08-02-2010 at 22:25.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    I agree fully with your opinion. SI should work on a solution or guide for cyrillic transcription to avoid those several namings of the same prename.

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    But shouldn't SI use BOTH transliterations, depending on the player's nationality?

    I mean, if he's Russian, he's Aleksandr, but if he's Ukranian, he's Oleksandr, and so on

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    Fair call. I've never delved into certain forums before, but I'd guess you'd be better posting your concern here:

    http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=162

    Bugs forum/League Specific issues.

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    You should also raise it in the specific Russian thread in the Data Issues forum where the researchers can see this.

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    I was just coming in here to post what FrazT said - definitely one for the data guys to look at IMO.

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    Ukrainian and Russian are two different languages and player names in these languages are also different, hence they are transliterated into English differently as well.

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    Wasn't sure where to put it an, before it gets closed for being in the wrong section, I decided to put it in the general forum.

    I'm aware that they are different languages to some extent, but on the other hand, both use the Cyrillic alphabet. The issue I'm pointing at is that we have identical names which are transliterated in different ways.

    Furthermore, I wrote in the first post that I'd appreciate a consistent transliteration, not that I'm demanding it.


    Edit: Posted it in the thread for the Russian Data Issues.
    Last edited by Red_Phoenix; 09-02-2010 at 18:01.

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    I'm no expert, but surely if they are spelt differently in the cyrillic alphabet, they should be spelt differently in the English alphabet?

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    Russian: Андрей => Andrey
    Ukrainian: Андрій => Andriy

    I don't see the problem in that example- there's a one letter difference between the names, so they are transliterated as such.

    Likewise here:
    Russian: Алексей => Aleksey
    Ukrainian: Олексій => Oleksiy

    Two letters change, so two letters change.

    I wouldn't expect Peter and Pierre to be transliterated to the Cyrillic alphabet identically, even though they are basically the same name.

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    Judging by the Cyrillic names posted in the first post, the names are written DIFFERENTLY also in Russian/Ukranian, thus I don't really get the point of asking for ONE transliteration into Western characters when the Cyrillic uses different ones.

    Russian uses Russian spelling, Ukrainian uses Ukrainian...


    That's like pretending "John", "Jean", "Juan" and "Giovanni" being transliterated into Cyrillic or Japanese the same way disregarding the obvious difference based on the national variation.

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    Quote Originally Posted by gunner86 View Post
    I'm no expert, but surely if they are spelt differently in the cyrillic alphabet, they should be spelt differently in the English alphabet?
    The difference is that there are two different languages using the Cyrillic alphabet - Russian and Ukrainian.

    A similar analogy would be that if my name in Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese was different (it isn't, but humour me), then they should still translate into the same English transliteration.

    I think it stems from the fact that he will be called differently in different countries, including a different transliteration. Ideally I think each player should have a name given in their native language and as the player moves between countries his "called name" changes (i.e. Ji-Sung Park in European countries, Park Ji-Sung in Asian countries).

    It's not just common in this sense to Russia and Ukraine, and any other language using the Cyrillic alphabet, though. The British media frequently used "Alonso" simply to refer to Xabi Alonso, while in Spain he would be called "Xabi Alonso" in full as a hypocoristic. If Daniel Alves moved to England, he would be called "Alves" while in Spain it would be "Dani Alves" in full as a hypocoristic. Then there's "Ji-Sung Park" and "Park Ji-Sung", to name but one or two others.

    I'm more tempted to think that it should follow the following rules:

    - If a player is Russian, SI should use a consistent style to directly transliterate this Russian name into English
    - If a player is Ukrainian, SI should use a consistent style to directly transliterate this Ukrainian name into English

    I accept this may cause problems if a Russian player, say, moves to Ukraine and plays there as his name will look transliterated wrong. However, the naming scheme in the database is limited in the sense that it does not accept per-country naming schemes.

    The alternative is that the name is transliterated based on the nation of the player's current team. So if Андрей plays in Russia, he gets "Andrey". If in-game he moves to Ukraine, tough - he still gets called "Andrey". There's not much we can do about it due to limitations in-game. The researchers may fix this if they move between database releases of course.

    And as an aside, sometimes players prefer a specific transliteration. Андрей Аршавин wishes, for example, to be known as "Andrei Arshavin" by the British media, rather than the transliteration you suggest "Andrey Arshavin".

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Park Ji-Sung is normally called just that, except by a single commentator and his shirt

    I've never seen Seol called Ki-Hyeon Seol, or Lee called Young-Pyo Lee.

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    Good point x42bn6, but still in the case of "Андрей" moving to Ukraine, I don't think he should be called " Андрій ".

    If he moves to U.K., would they start calling him Andrew? Or Anders in Scandinavia, or Andrea [with bemusing transgender effect] in Italy?

    The comparison with Korean is a bit more complicated, because the very same transliteration of names is "flawed", as the "r" in "Park" is mute to begin with, and there are many different transliterations for the same name. So the order of the name, Park Ji-Sung or Ji-Sung Park is almost a secondary issue if compared with a "wrong" transliteration.

    I think it's pretty straightforward: Russian nationality = Russian spelling. Ukrainian nationality = Ukrainian spelling, wherever they play.

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    Quote Originally Posted by SCIAG View Post
    Park Ji-Sung is normally called just that, except by a single commentator and his shirt

    I've never seen Seol called Ki-Hyeon Seol, or Lee called Young-Pyo Lee.
    It's not too common of course but some lazy systems (Ole!Ole! ) use first name + space + last name.

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...meta=&aq=f&oq=

    10,200 results! Staggering really.

    The good news is that the British are wise to this and know when to switch the order for Oriental names. I suspect they know little about Spanish and Portuguese names though. The Sun would have called him Cristiano Aveiro if they didn't know the Portuguese media properly called him Cristiano Ronaldo (dos Santos Aveiro).

    Quote Originally Posted by RBKalle View Post
    Good point x42bn6, but still in the case of "Андрей" moving to Ukraine, I don't think he should be called " Андрій ".

    If he moves to U.K., would they start calling him Andrew? Or Anders in Scandinavia, or Andrea [with bemusing transgender effect] in Italy?

    The comparison with Korean is a bit more complicated, because the very same transliteration of names is "flawed", as the "r" in "Park" is mute to begin with, and there are many different transliterations for the same name. So the order of the name, Park Ji-Sung or Ji-Sung Park is almost a secondary issue if compared with a "wrong" transliteration.

    I think it's pretty straightforward: Russian nationality = Russian spelling. Ukrainian nationality = Ukrainian spelling, wherever they play.
    Not quite clear cut as Francisco "Fran" Mérida Pérez, Francesc "Cesc" Fàbregas i Soler and Fat Spanish - I mean - Rafael "Rafa" Benítez Maudes, violate the birthright Spanish naming scheme choosing "English-ised" first name/last name forms sans hypocoristics (although they are the only ones who do which I could find).

    It seems to be based on common sense really - Fran Mérida and Cesc Fàbregas have been in England for a while (although for how much longer?) and "Mérida" and "Fàbregas" alone now mean a lot to the general public - they know who they refer to.

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    The difference is that there are two different languages using the Cyrillic alphabet - Russian and Ukrainian.

    A similar analogy would be that if my name in Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese was different (it isn't, but humour me), then they should still translate into the same English transliteration.

    I think it stems from the fact that he will be called differently in different countries, including a different transliteration. Ideally I think each player should have a name given in their native language and as the player moves between countries his "called name" changes (i.e. Ji-Sung Park in European countries, Park Ji-Sung in Asian countries).

    It's not just common in this sense to Russia and Ukraine, and any other language using the Cyrillic alphabet, though. The British media frequently used "Alonso" simply to refer to Xabi Alonso, while in Spain he would be called "Xabi Alonso" in full as a hypocoristic. If Daniel Alves moved to England, he would be called "Alves" while in Spain it would be "Dani Alves" in full as a hypocoristic. Then there's "Ji-Sung Park" and "Park Ji-Sung", to name but one or two others.

    I'm more tempted to think that it should follow the following rules:

    - If a player is Russian, SI should use a consistent style to directly transliterate this Russian name into English
    - If a player is Ukrainian, SI should use a consistent style to directly transliterate this Ukrainian name into English

    I accept this may cause problems if a Russian player, say, moves to Ukraine and plays there as his name will look transliterated wrong. However, the naming scheme in the database is limited in the sense that it does not accept per-country naming schemes.

    The alternative is that the name is transliterated based on the nation of the player's current team. So if Андрей plays in Russia, he gets "Andrey". If in-game he moves to Ukraine, tough - he still gets called "Andrey". There's not much we can do about it due to limitations in-game. The researchers may fix this if they move between database releases of course.

    And as an aside, sometimes players prefer a specific transliteration. Андрей Аршавин wishes, for example, to be known as "Andrei Arshavin" by the British media, rather than the transliteration you suggest "Andrey Arshavin".
    That doesn't sound very logical. Assuming I understand you correctly, if let's say Peter Crouch would move to Russia they should call him Пётр Крауч instead of Питер? Or if he went to France it should be Pierre Crouch?

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    Quote Originally Posted by wasmachien View Post
    That doesn't sound very logical. Assuming I understand you correctly, if let's say Peter Crouch would move to Russia they should call him Пётр Крауч instead of Питер? Or if he went to France it should be Pierre Crouch?
    Translation and transliteration are different. You certainly do not translate the name however there is not a 1-1 correspondence between Cyrillic and Latin characters therefore you will have to transliterate in some way.

    If you like, if Crouch moved to France, he would still be called "Peter Crouch" and his name would be written down that way.

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    Default Re: Transcription of Russian and Ukrainian names

    As a Brit who lives in the Russian speaking part of Ukraine, all I can say it that SI cant make everyone happy. Russian and Ukrainian are 2 different cyrillic languages with different alphabets. If you are a nationalistic Ukrainian you would obviously want cyrillic names in your version of cyrillic, and likewise if you were Russian.

    I can't really see the problem.

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    Can we use Cyrillic and Greec in FM too?
    I tried it in the 10.3 editor, but only got squares.

    I learned myself to read Cyrillic and want to change some of the bigger teams' names to this format "Latin name (Cyrillic / Greec name)", for example
    • PFC Litex Lovech (ПФК Литекс Ловеч)
    • FC Zenith St. Petersburg (фк Зенит Санкт-Петербург)
    • Olympiacos F.C. (ΠΑΕ Ολυμπιακός)
    • Apollon Limassol (Απόλλων Λεμεσού)

    I already thought of using a lnc file to make it so, but I don't know exactly if and how it works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBKalle View Post
    Good point x42bn6, but still in the case of "Андрей" moving to Ukraine, I don't think he should be called " Андрій ".

    If he moves to U.K., would they start calling him Andrew? Or Anders in Scandinavia, or Andrea [with bemusing transgender effect] in Italy?

    The comparison with Korean is a bit more complicated, because the very same transliteration of names is "flawed", as the "r" in "Park" is mute to begin with, and there are many different transliterations for the same name. So the order of the name, Park Ji-Sung or Ji-Sung Park is almost a secondary issue if compared with a "wrong" transliteration.
    This.

    Technically speaking if you were to transliterate PJS's name correctly into English it would be 'Bak Ji-seong'.

    Korean suffers from a very poor transliteration/romanisation system - similar to the whole arguments in this thread (i.e Evgeniy becoming Eguene etc) It was essentially created to make into a more manageable and readable form for westerners but disregarded the morphology and pronunciation of the Korean language. In essence it only serves to produce very poor Korean speakers.

    However this is nothing compared to Arabic which has about 100 odd ways of romanising everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen View Post
    Can we use Cyrillic and Greec in FM too?
    I tried it in the 10.3 editor, but only got squares.

    I learned myself to read Cyrillic and want to change some of the bigger teams' names to this format "Latin name (Cyrillic / Greec name)", for example
    • PFC Litex Lovech (ПФК Литекс Ловеч)
    • FC Zenith St. Petersburg (фк Зенит Санкт-Петербург)
    • Olympiacos F.C. (ΠΑΕ Ολυμπιακός)
    • Apollon Limassol (Απόλλων Λεμεσού)

    I already thought of using a lnc file to make it so, but I don't know exactly if and how it works.
    Someone that knows how to do this?

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    Perhaps any of the SI people can answer the question above?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Phoenix View Post
    Hey guys!

    When making my way through the FM database, I noticed one thing. The transcription of Ukrainian and Russian names has been realised in different ways though they are basically the same.


    Examples:

    Russian: Андрей => Andrey
    Ukrainian: Андрій => Andriy

    In fact, both transcriptions mean the same, but are written in a slightly different way as they are not fully the same language.

    I would really appreciate it if there was a consistent translation of those names, in this case either Andrey or Andrej. Andrej would be my personal favourite, but I could live with the other version as well.

    Further examples:
    My preferred version is written in bold.


    Russian: Евгений => Evgeniy
    Ukrainian: Євген => Evgen
    In the FM database, this name is written Eugene which is completely wrong.



    The family names that end in -ий are transcrpited -yi. Here, the better transcription would be either -yy or -iy of which I prefer -iy as -yy looks strange to me.


    I hope you get my point. In case, I should find more examples, I'll post them here. Let me know what you think of that.
    Being an American/Ukrainian this has often frustrated me as well. I can deal with most of the interpretations SI currently uses, and I must disagree with using one standard, as we should keep Ukrainian names different from Russian ones. I must agree with you that "Eugene" was just a poor effort in translation. And I totally agree with the surname endings as well, "iy" being most commonly accepted in english.

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    This is completely off topic, but x42bn6,

    I think you mean 谷間 rather than 開裂. Kairetsu literally means fragmentation but I know what you mean because it has another meaning. You only find that word in physics books in Japanese. Like I say, you should be saying tanima. Its a bit funny when you read that, sorta like when you read those naff Super Dry t-shirts. It really gets my goat as a Japanese translator.

    Personally, I'm a 中村知世 fan myself.

    Anyways....

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    Google Translate

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    Quote Originally Posted by x42bn6 View Post
    Google Translate
    Kokugo Jiten

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen View Post
    Can we use Cyrillic and Greec in FM too?
    I tried it in the 10.3 editor, but only got squares.

    I learned myself to read Cyrillic and want to change some of the bigger teams' names to this format "Latin name (Cyrillic / Greec name)", for example
    • PFC Litex Lovech (ПФК Литекс Ловеч)
    • FC Zenith St. Petersburg (фк Зенит Санкт-Петербург)
    • Olympiacos F.C. (ΠΑΕ Ολυμπιακός)
    • Apollon Limassol (Απόλλων Λεμεσού)

    I already thought of using a lnc file to make it so, but I don't know exactly if and how it works.

    you need to pick font that has those characters

    http://fm-x.net/forum/files/file/20-...E%D0%B4%D0%B0/

    http://fmfan.ru/board/index.php?showtopic=37237

    ПРИМЕЧАНИЕ: Многие скины используют свой набор шрифтов которые не всегда поддерживают кириллицу, для руссификации следует заменить шрифты (иногда требуется изменить название шрифта) на прилагаемые или любые другие поддерживающие правильное отображение кириллицы, на свое усмотрение.

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    That makes sense, thanks.
    But in the editor, it allready goes wrong. There the Cyrillic and Greec letters are replaced by those little rectangles.


    I have learned myself how to read it (transcribe it to Latin letters). But other than a few words, I cannot translate it.
    Could you help me how to make it the way I want, please?


    (This is what I understand of your message: руссификации -> Russification. So you talk about how to make FM Russian I think.)
    Last edited by Jorgen; 27-10-2010 at 23:13.

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