Closed Thread
Results 1 to 26 of 26

Thread: Too few sackings - the evidence

  1. #1
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    16th October 2007
    Location
    Larisa, somewhere in Greece...
    Posts
    987

    Default

    Take a look at the results of the following clubs:

    http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2...illafixyh3.png

    http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2...amptonfhu4.png

    http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/4...anmerefgc3.png

    http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ixtureskz4.png

    None of these teams won more than 4/16 in these games and it's a similar story in the games before these. Villa are bottom the premiership and O'Neil has money to spend. Southampton are newly relegated but surely would have expected a promotion push (have since made a bit of a recovery), Tranmere are second bottom and have lost 11/16 and Watford waited until they were 22nd before sacking Martin Allen. These are the most extreme examples I could find (there are others) yet clubs seem incredibly reluctant to sack managers who are underperforming massively, despite the RL culture of success at all costs - this season there have been 23 chnages at the point in the season I'm at, compared to none/very few in FM. Add to this the fact that around 10 managers were rumoured to be on their way out in the summer, guess how many didn't get their contracts renenwed? Not one. The prosecution rests.

  2. #2
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    16th October 2007
    Location
    Larisa, somewhere in Greece...
    Posts
    987

    Default

    Take a look at the results of the following clubs:

    http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2...illafixyh3.png

    http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2...amptonfhu4.png

    http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/4...anmerefgc3.png

    http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ixtureskz4.png

    None of these teams won more than 4/16 in these games and it's a similar story in the games before these. Villa are bottom the premiership and O'Neil has money to spend. Southampton are newly relegated but surely would have expected a promotion push (have since made a bit of a recovery), Tranmere are second bottom and have lost 11/16 and Watford waited until they were 22nd before sacking Martin Allen. These are the most extreme examples I could find (there are others) yet clubs seem incredibly reluctant to sack managers who are underperforming massively, despite the RL culture of success at all costs - this season there have been 23 chnages at the point in the season I'm at, compared to none/very few in FM. Add to this the fact that around 10 managers were rumoured to be on their way out in the summer, guess how many didn't get their contracts renenwed? Not one. The prosecution rests.

  3. #3
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th October 2006
    Location
    Wigan
    Posts
    5,313

    Default

    Now the anti-evidence

    02.07.2008 - Manchester United - Javier Aguirre SACKED

    05.12.2015 - Manchester United - Steve Bruce SACKED

    26.12.2017 - Manchester United - Huub Stevens SACKED

    17.03.2018 - Manchester United - Michael Laudrup SACKED

    30.03.2018 - Manchester United - Khalid Boulahrouz SACKED

    14.07.2020 - Manchester United - Frank Lampard SACKED

    21.02.2021 - Manchester United - Hugo Sanchez SACKED

  4. #4
    Amateur
    Join Date
    9th November 2007
    Posts
    5

    Default

    .... Khalid Boulahrouz and Frank Lampard Man U managers??? who is the current one? John Terry??

  5. #5
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    16th October 2007
    Location
    Larisa, somewhere in Greece...
    Posts
    987

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by SWaRFeGa:
    Now the anti-evidence

    02.07.2008 - Manchester United - Javier Aguirre SACKED

    05.12.2015 - Manchester United - Steve Bruce SACKED

    26.12.2017 - Manchester United - Huub Stevens SACKED

    17.03.2018 - Manchester United - Michael Laudrup SACKED

    30.03.2018 - Manchester United - Khalid Boulahrouz SACKED

    14.07.2020 - Manchester United - Frank Lampard SACKED

    21.02.2021 - Manchester United - Hugo Sanchez SACKED


    I think the top clubs are perhaps a little too trigger happy, Eriksson and Ramos went very early in my game. But the rest of the clubs very rarely change managers, compare that to people like Sammy Lee and Sam Allardyce, Billy Davies, Lawrie Sanchez who got sacked for doing very little wrong in a short space of time. And as for your example, 7 managers in 13 seasons isn't that bad considering Utd expect to be winning trophies every season, and the shadow of Ferguson.

  6. #6
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th October 2006
    Location
    Wigan
    Posts
    5,313

    Default

    It's actually 11 managers in 13 seasons, as I didn't mention :

    Alex Ferguson RETIRED
    Steve Coppell RESIGNED
    Steve McLaren RESIGNED
    Marcelino CURRENT BOSS

    I'll take a look at some other Prem clubs once I've finished messing about on my Wii. Lol.

  7. #7
    Amateur
    Join Date
    4th July 2002
    Posts
    849

    Default

    Ya Ibrahim, are you sure?

  8. #8
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    16th October 2007
    Location
    Larisa, somewhere in Greece...
    Posts
    987

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by SWaRFeGa:
    It's actually 11 managers in 13 seasons, as I didn't mention :

    Alex Ferguson RETIRED
    Steve Coppell RESIGNED
    Steve McLaren RESIGNED
    Marcelino CURRENT BOSS

    I'll take a look at some other Prem clubs once I've finished messing about on my Wii. Lol.


    Ferguson doesn't count, he's been know to be retiring for years. Laudrup shouldn't really count either, for that short a period of time you'd assume it was a personal thing. And from the looks of it there was a 7 year spell without a change, even if McLaren and Coppell were in charge then it's not too bad.

  9. #9
    Youth Team
    Join Date
    19th October 2006
    Location
    Wigan
    Posts
    5,313

    Default

    Steve Coppell managed for four years. Thats the longest stretch since Ferguson.

  10. #10
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    16th October 2007
    Location
    Larisa, somewhere in Greece...
    Posts
    987

    Default

    Even so, you're missing the point. You're just looking at one club which has special circumstances beyond the vast majority of clubs. I'm looking at the other 95 league clubs + non league, and a handful of sackings (if that) by mid december is not realistic.

  11. #11
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    16th October 2007
    Location
    Larisa, somewhere in Greece...
    Posts
    987

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by IbrahimAliMaher:
    I'm looking at the other 95 league clubs.


    Er, make that 91 league clubs.

  12. #12
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    20th August 2002
    Location
    Hither and thither
    Posts
    3,315

    Default

    I've had quite a few "top" clubs going through managers on a massive level.

    Man U and Liverpool have both had three or four managers in a season.

    Once you are successful,or as successful as the board expect, then you can be manager for years (McLaren has been England manager for 20 years so far), but if the club isn't doing that well then some clubs can really rip through managers.

    Definitely there aren't as many sackings generally, compared to real-life, but managers of clubs in financial trouble drop like flies.

  13. #13
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    4th July 2007
    Location
    The Wirral.
    Posts
    1,444

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by SWaRFeGa:
    Now the anti-evidence

    02.07.2008 - Manchester United - Javier Aguirre SACKED

    05.12.2015 - Manchester United - Steve Bruce SACKED

    26.12.2017 - Manchester United - Huub Stevens SACKED

    17.03.2018 - Manchester United - Michael Laudrup SACKED

    30.03.2018 - Manchester United - Khalid Boulahrouz SACKED

    14.07.2020 - Manchester United - Frank Lampard SACKED

    21.02.2021 - Manchester United - Hugo Sanchez SACKED


    Boulahrouz....lol
    That guy should be kept as far away from football as possible.

    I can't say i've noticed the problem Ibrahim pointed out.
    As to villa then it does appear to be a bit of an issue, but with regard to the smaller clubs i think that often they are given quite a lot of flexibility regarding their expectations.

  14. #14
    Amateur
    Join Date
    2nd August 2007
    Posts
    159

    Default

    In anyone elses game, does Klinsmann or Mourinho ever eventually get a job?

    A career that I had a little bit back, I was in about 4 or 5 seasons and neither manager ever had a job (I even changed Klinsmann's job status in the editor from "Director of football" to "manager")

  15. #15
    Amateur
    Join Date
    21st May 2007
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    226

    Default

    yeah in mine Mourinho ended up managing Inter for a couple of seasons

    quote:
    Originally posted by CGSilva5:
    In anyone elses game, does Klinsmann or Mourinho ever eventually get a job?

    A career that I had a little bit back, I was in about 4 or 5 seasons and neither manager ever had a job (I even changed Klinsmann's job status in the editor from "Director of football" to "manager")

  16. #16
    Amateur
    Join Date
    1st June 2004
    Location
    ehmtheblueline.com
    Posts
    466

    Default

    quote:
    Too few sackings - the evidence



    Start a game with the Swedish leagues on. You'll think much, much differently.

  17. #17
    Amateur
    Join Date
    12th December 2007
    Posts
    134

    Default

    I haven't checked the other teams but Chelsea have sacked Avram Grant. Liverpool sacked Rafa Benitez and Marcello Lippi by the start of the 4th season.

  18. #18
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    12th July 2007
    Posts
    3,641

    Default

    End of the season 2010 in my game, Fergie, Benitez, Aguirre (new Chelsea mgr) and Moyes, got the boot after finishing 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th respectively. Wenger was okay as Arsenal finished 1st for the third season in a row.

    Am at the end of 2012 and as i've just won the league with Leeds, Wenger is on his way out (although the press seem to be speculating it's HIS choice not to sign a new contract).

  19. #19
    Semi Pro
    Join Date
    22nd January 2004
    Location
    Newcastle upon Tyne (lurking in the gloaming)
    Posts
    3,676

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by IbrahimAliMaher:
    quote:
    Originally posted by IbrahimAliMaher:
    I'm looking at the other 95 league clubs.


    Er, make that 91 league clubs.



    And you've posted stats for three of them pertaining to the sacking (or not) of a single manager in each case. That hardly counts as overwhelming evidence. Even in modern football there are still a range of chairman - some clubs have a patient chairman, others have ludicrously impatient ones.

    Dario Gradi stayed at Crewe for over 20 years. They had success on the pitch in some of those years, but not all of them, but their board were patient. Same is true of numerous clubs so just giving 4 examples out of 92 clubs doesn't constitute "evidence".

  20. #20
    First Team Regular
    Join Date
    13th April 2001
    Location
    thierry ennui
    Posts
    27,836

    Default

    there are too few sackings, and too many managers not getting offered new contracts

    people citing examples of individual clubs getting through a lot of managers aren't taking into account the flawed ai of the board confidence system. each manager appointed during the season is being blamed for his predecessor's failures, and thus is far more likely to be sacked quickly. coupled with caretaker managers, this explains man utd getting through four managers in the 2017/18 example given above

    as big clubs have further to fall, this leads to them getting through several managers in a short space of time. relegation candidates, whose boards want them to finish just outside the relegation zone, sack managers rarely because even when bottom of the table they're only slightly underperforming. thus their managers will often only leave at the end of the season when their contracts are up, which means no sacking, and means that their succesor isn't burdened by the confidence bug mentioned above, because they only take over once next season's target has been set

  21. #21
    Part-Timer
    Join Date
    16th October 2007
    Location
    Larisa, somewhere in Greece...
    Posts
    987

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by glamdring:
    quote:
    Originally posted by IbrahimAliMaher:
    quote:
    Originally posted by IbrahimAliMaher:
    I'm looking at the other 95 league clubs.


    Er, make that 91 league clubs.



    And you've posted stats for three of them pertaining to the sacking (or not) of a single manager in each case. That hardly counts as overwhelming evidence. Even in modern football there are still a range of chairman - some clubs have a patient chairman, others have ludicrously impatient ones.

    Dario Gradi stayed at Crewe for over 20 years. They had success on the pitch in some of those years, but not all of them, but their board were patient. Same is true of numerous clubs so just giving 4 examples out of 92 clubs doesn't constitute "evidence".


    First of all, I posted 4 not 3 examples. Secondly I never said 4 examples accounted for everybody, if you actually bothered to read what I said properly before commenting you might have seen the part where I said "These are the most extreme examples I could find (there are others)", i.e. there are plenty of candidates for the sack, I just couldn't be bothered to take 10 different screenshots, host them etc. And all these comments about the top 4 are irrelevant - these clubs expect to be winning stuff year in year out so a period of not winning things is a disaster in comparison for them, whereas for any other club could be seen as a good season.

  22. #22
    Amateur
    Join Date
    20th November 2006
    Posts
    56

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by IbrahimAliMaher:
    But the rest of the clubs very rarely change managers, compare that to people like Sammy Lee and Sam Allardyce, Billy Davies, Lawrie Sanchez who got sacked for doing very little wrong in a short space of time.


    As a Fulham supporter, I can assure you that Sanchez did a lot wrong in a short space of time!

  23. #23
    Amateur
    Join Date
    11th October 2007
    Posts
    476

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by SWaRFeGa:
    Now the anti-evidence

    02.07.2008 - Manchester United - Javier Aguirre SACKED

    05.12.2015 - Manchester United - Steve Bruce SACKED

    26.12.2017 - Manchester United - Huub Stevens SACKED

    17.03.2018 - Manchester United - Michael Laudrup SACKED

    30.03.2018 - Manchester United - Khalid Boulahrouz SACKED

    14.07.2020 - Manchester United - Frank Lampard SACKED

    21.02.2021 - Manchester United - Hugo Sanchez SACKED



    how about some screenshots?

  24. #24
    Third Team
    Join Date
    5th November 2007
    Posts
    7,335

    Default

    quote:
    Originally posted by Stimps2:
    quote:
    Originally posted by IbrahimAliMaher:
    But the rest of the clubs very rarely change managers, compare that to people like Sammy Lee and Sam Allardyce, Billy Davies, Lawrie Sanchez who got sacked for doing very little wrong in a short space of time.


    As a Fulham supporter, I can assure you that Sanchez did a lot wrong in a short space of time!


    Agree totally.

    Sanchez did little wrong, other than spend over £20m (way more than Coleman was ever given) and take the team into a relegation position.

    Sammy Lee inherited a team who had qualified for the Uefa cup and took them into relegation contention along with alienating a number of players who have since returned and played well.

    Sam Allaerdyce spent a lot of money on players and was struggling bottom half of the table with the likes of Given, Taylor, Smith, Butt, N'Zogbia, Milner, Viduka, Duff, Owen and Martins. All U21 Internationals at least.

    I wasn't too sure about the Billy Davis one myself but Derby fans pretty much see him as inept and believe that the football played has improved greatly under Jewell.

    As for sackings in the game, I have seen plenty but it seems to mostly bee the top teams with lower teams sticking with what they have. The French league goes through a lot of managers as does the Dutch league. Could the amount of leagues running have an impact on this as many managers would never become available just like jobs wouldn't become available so teams don't lose their manager to someone else??

    PS. I'm Northern Irish and I hate Lawrie Sanchez backstabber

  25. #25
    Amateur
    Join Date
    31st March 2003
    Location
    birmingham, uk
    Posts
    213

    Default

    i think the spate of managers leaving after 3 months is annoying. i know it happens occassionaly irl, but its very commonplace on my games

  26. #26
    andrewmg
    Guest

    Default

    oh it gets on my nerves when teams dont spend the money. i was top of the italian league and ac milan were out of the top four for a few seasons but they have like 90 million when i took them over. how unreal

Closed Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts