Suggestion - Preselected Squads

[Ov Collyer]

Original Suggestion
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We're thinking of having it so that when you join a one of the new GWs after the reset, your squad is preselected for you and you either cannot change it, or have very limited control over changing it before it is confirmed.

The idea is to eliminate, once and for all, any perceived or real advantage to getting into a new GW early and manually picking your squad before others have signed-in yet.

The way we see it is that it should be your skill and judgment over a longer period of time that separates managers from each other - not the decisions (however skilful) made during an exceptionally small proportion of a GW's existence.

The best way to ensure squads are equal is to give managers *no choice* at all in their starting squad; look at is if you've just taken over a new club and this is what you have been given.

Or, we could give some kind of limited choice - but go too far down this road and we could end up back at square one.

Overall though, we think that rather than all the early-joining managers indulging in a ruthless "every man for himself" scrap over the best players, led by T-Bag and his secret book ‘T-Bag’s Guide To The Best FM10 Players’, wouldn't it be lovely if instead, the transfer market was alive with exchanges and activity and banter as everyone gets to know each other?

We understand people like to be able to handpick their starting squad, but the question we're asking is whether this is a good thing for the Gameworld?

Summary @ 18th Dec
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Thanks to all who have taken the time to contribute so far.

My reading of the feedback so far is this:

- most people seem in favour of the idea of a preselected squad, in principle, for the reasons outlined above
- of those accepting the idea, some accepted a little begrudgingly, as picking your initial squad is a fun part of the game
- people who like the idea frequently asked for some form of customisation/wizard option to tailor their squad slightly
- the idea of a preselected 'pool' of players per club was raised by a couple of people and on the surface seems a good one - we've posted up some examples of how this might work here http://community.sigames.com/showthr...27#post4463627.
- some people expressed concern that with the emphasis switched to post-confirm swapping/trading of players to mould your squad this could lead to exploiting of inexperienced users. Others pointed out that if the economy was tuned so that there was smaller inflation then this might be less of a problem (we plan a discussion on the economy side of the game soon)
- a few people rejected the idea completely - either because picking your initial squad is too fun to be a feature removed and/or they feel that the edge this gives a manager is an important differentiator between good managers and less good managers. One person called the idea 'bird-brained' (the bird was unable for comment)

Summary @ 23rd Dec
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Just a quick note to say that the update from our end is we're busy implementing the 'pool' system, which we hope to get into beta in the new year in a test GW to see how people find it.

[trainspotter]

The best way to ensure squads are equal is to give managers *no choice* at all in their starting squad; look at is if you've just taken over a new club and this is what you have been given.

Totally agree.

Has the random squad generator thingy been improved at all for the relaunch because I've not been particularly impressed with it in the past? Hopefully every squad will be VERY similar in terms of CA, PA, average age, etc.

[BrianMcgee]

Is there any room for discussion? It makes total sense and proves SI learn from mistakes. SI have said themselves that the top 100 are made up of teams that were in the GW from the beginning. What hasnt been said is that a lot of those teams gained an advantage by picking the best players, even to make their team better or to sell later on to make a huge profit.

[GuitarMan]

I would say personally I like the idea of preselected squads (with no say in them AT ALL) *cue complaints*

It brings the real tactics to:

1) What kind of players do I have how should i use them

2) who should i swap in and out, who should I keep

3) where do i go from here

[BrianMcgee]

Totally agree.

Has the random squad generator thingy been improved at all for the relaunch because I've not been particularly impressed with it in the past? Hopefully every squad will be VERY similar in terms of CA, PA, average age, etc.

Actually thats a good idea, what if you could specify that you wanted older or younger players. Or I play 4-4-2, can i have players that fit this formation sort of thing

[groo]

Although by reading the above made my stomach ache , since i love to manually pick the players for my team, it would be more fair to everybody.
Maybe if you did that then you would concider increasing the starting budget of the clubs so all can get more decent players.

[Cliffarsenal]

I think it'd be good for the returning star gw's (ppl using fm10 db etc), but I'd let you pick on the newgen ones, it's half the fun.

[Bertie BG]

Is there any room for discussion?

Yes, this is a discussion forum, to discuss ideas. Nothing in this forum is set in stone

[ptr]

Some middle ground, perhaps - give each manager a 'pool' of, say, 40 players to choose from. His squad must have 23-30 players in it.

This 'pool' would be unique, and none of the players available to any other managers.

Is that workable? I get the feeling there aren't enough players in the DB to make this work.

[tommyh_16]

I like the ideas from Cliffarsenal and ptr

[trainspotter]

Maybe if you did that then you would concider increasing the starting budget of the clubs so all can get more decent players.

Just adding to this, can I ask what was the original reason for making all GWs start with the best players (i.e. anyone with an AF of £500k+) on the free agents list? It was this design decision which, in my opinion, created the infamous "gold rush" which was loved and loathed in equal measure.

Is there anything wrong with all of these superstars being assigned to squads at the start? If the random squad generator is balanced - which it HAS to be - then putting Ronaldo, Messi, Torres etc in starting squads shouldn't be a problem. They're going to end up in somebody's squad by the end of the first season anyway so why not just remove that cut-throat "gold rush" period from the game altogether?

[BrianMcgee]

Yes, this is a discussion forum, to discuss ideas. Nothing in this forum is set in stone

Whats the point in a reset if your just gonna make the same mistakes, next you will tell me people will be able to jump GWs as freely as before

[Chauzu]

Just adding to this, can I ask what was the original reason for making all GWs start with the best players (i.e. anyone with an AF of £500k+) on the free agents list? It was this design decision which, in my opinion, created the infamous "gold rush" which was loved and loathed in equal measure.

Is there anything wrong with all of these superstars being assigned to squads at the start? If the random squad generator is balanced - which it HAS to be - then putting Ronaldo, Tevez, Torres etc in starting squads shouldn't be a problem. They're going to end up in somebody's squad by the end of the first season anyway so why not just remove that cut-throat "gold rush" period from the game altogether?

Won't this add another percieved injustice? We don't have superstars to cover 1000-1500 teams, and there's only one Ronaldo and Messi. Anyone not having a fair shot at these will complain, and those who get them will be percieved to have got an unfair advantage.

I'd rather these players were frozen for x number of seasons, and then released all at once (maybe 750k+ AF players).

[Bertie BG]

Whats the point in a reset if your just gonna make the same mistakes, next you will tell me people will be able to jump GWs as freely as before

I have no idea what you're talking about. This is an idea that's been raised to solve a problem - we're opening up to the community for discussion and feedback, that's it.

Can we please get this back on topic.

[trainspotter]

Won't this add another percieved injustice? We don't have superstars to cover 1000-1500 teams, and there's only one Ronaldo and Messi. Anyone not having a fair shot at these will complain, and those who get them will be percieved to have got an unfair advantage.

I'd rather these players were frozen for x number of seasons, and then released all at once (maybe 750k+ AF players).

I agree but, as I said, if the random squad generator is balanced then it shouldn't be a problem. I might get Cristiano Ronaldo and you might get Lionel Messi, but the squad generator should recognise that we've got the best two players in the game and our next assigned player would be of a suitably lower standard. Meanwhile the manager who got Dirk Kuyt as their "star" assigned player would get another player from a similarly high standard as their next assigned player. I know there's a lot more to it than that but I'd expect/hope that the squad generator is capable of producing 1000 squads which are by-and-large equally sought after.

[BrianMcgee]

Again, you are asking members that were here and are still here. A lot of which choose their own squads, in essence you are asking managers who benefitted from choosing their squads. People should not gain an advantage by being lucky enough to be the first logged into the server.

The discussion should be about how the pre selected squads can be modified due to manager types. for example i would like to play 4132 without wingers so id prefer 2 extra DMs instead of wingers

[gnomon]

but wait a second. Why do you think this is a good idea guys ? A big part of the game is to pick the right player to do the job you want him to. Thats some kind of skill, and at the start of the GW this is very croucial.

Yes ofc this would help (again si) the late joiners, but there are a lot of us who want to pick their squad. This tho depends on how many players would join the current GW. Because if you have a server 50% filled up then you shouldnt use preselected teams, cause everyone will have a chance to get a decent squad.

No need to take the right of choice from us cause its a big part of the game. Making us the same teams wont change a lot. I mean those that will survive and win will be the same even if they pick their squads. With this rule you will limit our potential for a great start. You will put us in a box, for some late joiners.

[dankrzyz]

Hand-picking squads caused so much heartache and headache and was commonly considered one of the unfairn aspects of starting (very) early in a gameworld versus enterting the gameworld later. Perception or reality, or a little of both, it was certainly a lightening rod for frustration. One's initial squad is commonly replaced, in part or in full, within a season or two anyway...

In another thread, there was some talk of a wizard to shape one's initial squad without handpicking. A good idea (and compromise).

[Jakswan]

Not really got terribly strong opinions on this although it seems counter intuitive to creating your own team. I normally pick up one or two seniors and the rest youth. Not to sell the youth but to use them as future seniors. Then spend the close season backfilling with seniors.

I then don't have try and rip off a new manager and charge £1m for my £20k Aq Fee player a season later.

I also don't think you can really look at this issue in isolation especially if there are further 'bigger impact' changes announced later.

[lukekarts]

I love the suggestion, purely because it's such a pain picking players for initial squads due to missed opportunities etc.

If this were to be implemented though, I'd want a couple of things clear:

1. Average Current Ability of teams is all equal
2. Average Potential Ability of teams is all equal

I don't feel there needs to be variety in the preselection tool - if you want to play with 2 DMs but only get 2 MCs, you can trade for different players from the start...

[lukekarts]

Not really got terribly strong opinions on this although it seems counter intuitive to creating your own team. I normally pick up one or two seniors and the rest youth. Not to sell the youth but to use them as future seniors. Then spend the close season backfilling with seniors.

I then don't have try and rip off a new manager and charge £1m for my £20k Aq Fee player a season later.

I also don't think you can really look at this issue in isolation especially if there are further 'bigger impact' changes announced later.

Theoretically you could still do that... sell off half your starting squad and by youth...

[BrianMcgee]

I love the suggestion, purely because it's such a pain picking players for initial squads due to missed opportunities etc.

If this were to be implemented though, I'd want a couple of things clear:

1. Average Current Ability of teams is all equal
2. Average Potential Ability of teams is all equal

I don't feel there needs to be variety in the preselection tool - if you want to play with 2 DMs but only get 2 MCs, you can trade for different players from the start...

This is very true, however, i imagine trying desperatly trying to sell my wingers for half MV and then people wanting 3x MV for their DM. I guess some problems can never be solved

[IanW]

For any preselected squad I'd want to be able to specify first:

Formation - Obviously most of us have a preferred formation.
Wage budget - Some may want to try to buy quick success, others to plan for long term savings.
Age range - Equally, some may want better(i.e older) first-team players for quicker success, others may want to throw their youths in at the deep end.
Squads - The option to start with (pre-selected) youth squads at whatever levels desired - at the expense of the overall increased wage budget. Or at the expense of the decreased wage budget left for the 1st team if not playing these youths there.

[trainspotter]

This is very true, however, i imagine trying desperatly trying to sell my wingers for half MV and then people wanting 3x MV for their DM. I guess some problems can never be solved

That's almost an endorsement for completely random squads though. If DMs are worth 6x more on an open market than wingers then the savvy/experienced FML will deliberately stack their squad with DMs and as a result the balance is again broken right from the very start.

I know your example was an exaggeration to prove a point, but there are discrepancies in market values between positions e.g. a good forward will always sell for a lot more than a good full-back. If I had the chance to shape my squad around a formation I would therefore say I play 2-5-3 and as a result give myself a big advantage when it came to the transfer market.

The same exploiting can in my opinion be applied to every single "preference" selection in a squad. My 2-5-3 would be selected from "young", "pacey" and "Brazilian" players and I would be quids in.

[Tsapas]

For any preselected squad I'd want to be able to specify first:

Formation - Obviously most of us have a preferred formation.
Wage budget - Some may want to try to buy quick success, others to plan for long term savings.
Age range - Equally, some may want better(i.e older) first-team players for quicker success, others may want to throw their youths in at the deep end.
Squads - The option to start with (pre-selected) youth squads at whatever levels desired - at the expense of the overall increased wage budget. Or at the expense of the decreased wage budget left for the 1st team if not playing these youths there.

I think this idea is nice,but should be considered only in Returning Stars GWs.

- Returning Stars GWs:
. Leave the starting budget of 500k intact.
. Assign to every team a pre-select squad of 16-20 players (whatever feels best).
. Extend Provisional Contracts to 1 week since the initial start of the GW,and at the said time frame users can only swap players between team without involving money fees to tailor the squad to their needs.
. Give that 1 week grace period to any new members in the GW who join after the initial week,and allow them to cash in any provisional players they do not want for AF.

- Newgen GWs:
.Leave things as the are at the moment,since there will be no shortlists you can rely upon.

The above things would go a long way to eliminate any kind of head starts,and all add another bit of difference between these 2 kinds of GWs.Let people choose how they want to pick their squad by joining the appropriate GW ( as Cliffarsenal suggested above).

[BrianMcgee]

That's almost an endorsement for completely random squads though. If DMs are worth 6x more on an open market than wingers then the savvy/experienced FML will deliberately stack their squad with DMs and as a result the balance is again broken right from the very start.

I know your example was an exaggeration to prove a point, but there are discrepancies in market values between positions e.g. a good forward will always sell for a lot more than a good full-back. If I had the chance to shape my squad around a formation I would therefore say I play 2-5-3 and as a result give myself a big advantage when it came to the transfer market.

The same exploiting can in my opinion be applied to every single "preference" selection in a squad. My 2-5-3 would be selected from "young", "pacey" and "Brazilian" players and I would be quids in.

You have a good point. Im happy with completely random, then its down to managing skills at its purest level.

[Andy Parkes]

I completely understand the desire for a level playing field from the start and i think in a returning stars GW there is more of a requirement for this to be implemented. Prevents the people who have amassed a list of players to get and perhaps the bigger issue of young superstars to pick up.

However, i feel there is a few fundamental problems with the idea that will be determined greatly by how well the concept is intergrated. My main concern is that there will still be inequity. This time it will be an enforced imbalance though. Depending on how the squads are set up (i would imagine it would be based on value of player, potential of player etc etc) there is naturally going to be some squads better than others even if there overall worth is considered equal by the game.

This in turn would have further repercussions for the teams later on, hence handicapping some managers early on through no fault or even decisions of thier own. If i received a squad full of 31 yr olds that don't fit any kind of system i want and thier skills didn't match what i required/wanted, i wonder how easy it would be for me to ship out those players and get more players in that i do want in comparison to another team who received younger or more suitable players.

I really can't see any way to ensure total equilibrium of teams and squads (without giving everyone exactly the same players...) as different managers require different sorts of players, ages and wages etc. if the initial squad selection will be inherently flawed and unbalanced using the current hand picked system or a new auto squad selection, would the paying customer be more annoyed by missing out on handpicking some players or being given a squad that is inferior (in a subjective or objective viewpoint) by the game itself?

Overall i feel it would be down to how any such sysem is implemented but could help the returning stars GW's especially, if it's set up right. Yet, i don't feel it's as necessary in a newgen world. The game is (was) billed as something that was centred around you and building up your "own" team. To me, this would greatly detract from that ideal.

It would also help, as suggested by a previous poster, certain criteria were selected, i.e players required for a 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 formation., limits on age/wage of players selected etc etc. Maybe, even an option to "reroll" your initial squad up to 3 times if you really aren't happy with the selection. If you reroll 3 times and get a worse squad at the end, you knew the risks and gambled and so on (just an idea ).

We need to know more information about how the system would work because, in my opinion, it would be a major disaster and not only defeating the object but making the situation worse if some teams were artificially handed an advantage or disadvantage from the start.

As ever, some will like the idea and some won't but i would suggest only going ahead with it if you can 100% guarentee equity of squads, on more than just an overall value system, otherwise it will ultimately just create more issues down the line.

[Celvin]

Although, I don't think the randomization engine will be entirely fair for everyone as the AQ Fee/MV is kind of skewed in some places, I actually think this is a good idea!

I remember a lot of managers had a lot of trouble logging in at launch, which made them end up with leftovers pretty much. Also, managers from beta and with experience from FM09 had a huge advantage when it came to picking the right players by name. I had written down the names of my entire squad before picking myself, and ended up with 70% of them.

[bazrah99]

Even in a newgen gameworld I would not want to see the current system used, whereby the first managers to log in get the best options. Even if you don't know the players by reputation, the more savy managers will quickly snap up the players with excellent attributes for each position using filters and experience whilst the newbies will be clueless.

What I would like to see implemented is a system that is fun and exciting but fair. How this is reached is subject to debate for sure.

Maybe change it so that it is not simply a case of picking players that are instantly yours and held for 24 hours and instead make it so you register your interest in a player. If after x amount of time nobody else wants him he joins your team and if others also show interest you can chose to offer the player a small percentage extra wage to join you. See it as a more basic wage auction only restricted so that big wages are not possible (maybe 25% max over demand). If more than one team goes to 25% over demand then the player chooses his team by random.

[ptr]

Even in a newgen gameworld I would not want to see the current system used, whereby the first managers to log in get the best options. Even if you don't know the players by reputation, the more savy managers will quickly snap up the players with excellent attributes for each position using filters and experience whilst the newbies will be clueless.

What I would like to see implemented is a system that is fun and exciting but fair. How this is reached is subject to debate for sure.

Maybe change it so that it is not simply a case of picking players that are instantly yours and held for 24 hours and instead make it so you register your interest in a player. If after x amount of time nobody else wants him he joins your team and if others also show interest you can chose to offer the player a small percentage extra wage to join you. See it as a more basic wage auction only restricted so that big wages are not possible (maybe 25% max over demand). If more than one team goes to 25% over demand then the player chooses his team by random.

I agree with the first paragraph. Especially high CA youths who are relatively easy to spot.

With the last paragraph, that still means all the best players are gone within the first 24hrs. Additionally, managers will have to wait around before they can play their first game. Sounds a bit boring to me, and won't encourage them to interact or even log in until their squad is finalised.

[Dawsey]

OK some points:

What happens after your awarded your squad? (Can you still go out and sign free agents)

What is the minimum spend allowed on the squad for players and wages or is this going to be preset?

I feel the best way to do it would be to give every manager 16 starting players that total the same amount of ACQ fees,wages, average age, positions and finally reputation.

These starting squads should be on the lower end of the ability scale to make managers really work hard for success in that first season.

Signing free agents should then not be allowed until the end of the first season. However trading of players would be allowed straight away.

Finally certain wonderkids and top first day in a gameworld buys should be removed from the process and made available in season 2 pre season. This would stop people moaning that manager X got really lucky with his pre-selected squad. Plus it would encourage new users to join up an already open gameworld as they can get 1 top player in their squad to sell on (As per the draft idea)

Of course there are many many more issues that need to be thought out on this.

However whatever is decided needs to remove the whole "I missed out on Aaron Ramsey because I logged in 30 seconds later than manager X after the gameworld opened!" rants

[bazrah99]

I agree with the first paragraph. Especially high CA youths who are relatively easy to spot.

With the last paragraph, that still means all the best players are gone within the first 24hrs. Additionally, managers will have to wait around before they can play their first game. Sounds a bit boring to me, and won't encourage them to interact or even log in until their squad is finalised.

I agree to some extent that it drags it out more and to some that is boring, but managers that love the start of the GW and moulding teams to suit play types and tactics it is a joy. How can you strike a balance however? Maybe allow managers to play non-ranked matches with unconfirmed squads (maybe CPU/AI matches only)?

[Dawsey]

We're thinking of having it so that when you join a one of the new GWs after the reset, your squad is preselected for you and you either cannot change it, or have very limited control over changing it before it is confirmed.

The idea is to eliminate, once and for all, any perceived or real advantage to getting into a new GW early and manually picking your squad before others have signed-in yet.

The way we see it is that it should be your skill and judgment over a longer period of time that separates managers from each other - not the decisions (however skilful) made during an exceptionally small proportion of a GW's existence.

The best way to ensure squads are equal is to give managers *no choice* at all in their starting squad; look at is if you've just taken over a new club and this is what you have been given.

Or, we could give some kind of limited choice - but go too far down this road and we could end up back at square one.

Overall though, we think that rather than all the early-joining managers indulging in a ruthless "every man for himself" scrap over the best players, led by T-Bag and his secret book ‘T-Bag’s Guide To The Best FM10 Players’, wouldn't it be lovely if instead, the transfer market was alive with exchanges and activity and banter as everyone gets to know each other?

We understand people like to be able to handpick their starting squad, but the question we're asking is whether this is a good thing for the Gameworld?

Hi OV

Just another quick point.

In terms of it being peoples skill and judgement over a longer period of time the answer is simple.

Give everyone an equally low level standard of squad at the start of a gameworld!

Then from season 2 with no big players to sell off for big bucks managers will really have to earn it

[TomX]

I'm sorry SI but i'm fully against a straight pre selected squad,

Most of the fun (for me) and interest is to hand pick my own players, and to follow my own pattern :
either it coud be,
- nationality (all brazilian, argentinian...even if it means not getting a perfect starting eleven)
- project (starting with a youth squad to promote my stadium plan for the next seasons)
- building around one fav player (lisandro lopes, breno,...)
etc...

You've kept saying/swearing for a year now that the start of the gw is not the crucial time and that preselected squad guarantied everyone to get a shoot at nice players

Now you offer us to start with an awfull and unlikeable team made of half 30 y.o, half 20...from all other the world (beneton style) and with almost no control over it.

The way i see it coming is...log on...place every player on transfer list...bid for players i might want

While i could just get the player i might like and build a team around the tactic i want and with player getting in smoothly

Tom

PS : sorry english is not my natural language

[mdbussen]

First of all, major kudos to SI for creating this forum and hopefully it will be a fantastic place for them to generate ideas and discussion and for the users to have a chance to contribute ideas to the game

Regarding the subject at hand, I am fully in favor of pre-selected squads that have been balanced in terms of age/CA/PA. It is a lot of fun to select your starting squad but realisiticly pre-selected squads is the only way to ensure a fair gameworld balance from the very beginning of a gameworld. It also ensures that players late to the party (i.e. joining weeks/months after a gameworld starts) will still be able to field a reasonable starting squad rather than having to pick through the scraps and get 16 x 34 yr olds!

I had originally thought that it would be a good idea to have SOME control over this pre-selected squad - perhaps to be able to set a formation that you want the squad to conform to (much like in the original team selection wizard) or even the ability to choose nationality for your players. Realistically if the CA/PA of the squad was completely balanced against the other teams in the gameworld this shouldn't matter - but another poster makes a good point about how such a system can be exploited. If you were to select a 5 striker formation your CA/PA would be balanced but it is reasonable to believe that because strikers are worth so much more than other positions the actual VALUE of your squad would be higher than many other squads in the gameworld.

The more I think about it, the more having completely predetermined starting squads seems to make sense.

The bigger problem in my opinion is to determine how we can prevent the exploitation of new users by veteran users upon gameworld launch.

[Ov Collyer]

Just a quick post to say we're obviously reading everything being posted here.

Having these kind of discussions in their own forum should ensure we can glean much more from the feedback, rather than have to search in amongst various threads about other things.

We need to get as many people involved as possible though, so if any of you find some of this under discussion in your GWs, or whatever, then please encourage folk to visit and share their thoughts with us! I know Bertie and co. also have plans to bring this area to the attention of as many people as possible.

We are aware that a forum like this can never be a truly representative view of everyone playing, but equally that doesn't mean that many of those posting aren't also looking at the bigger picture and from a perspective other than their own and thus it's still great feedback for us.

Anyway, I'll stop interrupting...

[MyNameIsJohn]

Pre-selected and pre-confirmed squads are a necessary evil. Yes it's fun to pick your own squad but the advantages some managers got in the opening minutes of a gameworld were incredible. Advantages big enough to poison the balance of the gameworlds from the very beginning. (I raised this with an example months ago - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=97149)

I'd actually be in favour of the most draconian approach - no choice or scope whatsoever - you get your 16 players and that's that. Why? It'll encourage early trading between managers at acqusition fee (all players will have 100% sell on for first week). So you can get the type of squad balance you want...but you'll need to build early relationships with other managers. Win, win.

[AJ87]

Im fully for pre selected squads aslong as they are with some kind of tool which you can set SIs own pre set options, such as if i want to play a standard 433 you wont give me wingers and not enough strikers etc.

Sorry to stray off topic, but is there any space available on the beta worlds? I was previously on them but was unable to play much due to having 3 live accounts, but now that im down to 1 id like the chance to test all new features coming in first hand.

Thanks

[Methos]

I fully support the preselected squads as a means of balance and longevity of the gameworlds.

I am quite positive that using the current system If I was lucky to log in amongst the first in the gameworld I could create an unreal squad. The key to the success would be two dimensional. Experience on selecting good value players and the occurance of logging before someone else with the same experience. Btw I am not referring to knowing player names but applying the right filters and a few other tricks.

Now I am happy with starting equal with everyone else and slowly making my way to the top with good strategy moves.

It is better for the longevity of the game to erase having an advantage just because you were an early joiner. If it was myself the early joiner I would feel like robbing someone helpless. I want it fairer and harder at the same time.

While on topic of everyone starting equal, which I approve, I need to point out that a managers good transfer is another managers bad transfer. And I wouldn't want to see someone making the best transfers just because one way or another he can persuade someone else making a terrible or a bad transfer. I don't want the game to reward the manager who can spot the biggest "sucker" and exploit him. However I don't have a solution. Is there any way to "control" how much of a bad deal you can do for yourself as a means of not giving someone else a big and unfair advantage? For example someone on my gameworld sold a player for about 3m above MV to a total fee of 6m. It was a good deal for him and a bad deal for the buyer. Later on the buyer put the very same player he spent 6m for at 1 pound auction and guess what he sold for. Someone's bad transfer move gave some other manager an undeserved advantage over the rest of the competition. I believe on that particular case the bad move manager wanted to quit FML and didn't care about what he spend and where.

[mdbussen]

I'd actually be in favour of the most draconian approach - no choice or scope whatsoever - you get your 16 players and that's that. Why? It'll encourage early trading between managers at acqusition fee (all players will have 100% sell on for first week). So you can get the type of squad balance you want...but you'll need to build early relationships with other managers. Win, win.

I would agree with you but then doesn't the problem become that whoever can fleece the most new users in the shortest amount of time gets a huge advantage?

[Methos]

I would agree with you but then doesn't the problem become that whoever can fleece the most new users in the shortest amount of time gets a huge advantage?

I said this concern in my post above. A managers good move is another managers bad move.

perhaps the solution to this would be a managers good move is the whole gameworlds bad move.

translated this would mean no private transfers. 24 hour auctions for EVERYTHING

[dankrzyz]

translated this would mean no private transfers. 24 hour auctions for EVERYTHING

It's been done in other freebie online football sims. Would be worth a discussion, at least. But probably best in another thread.

[bazrah99]

I said this concern in my post above. A managers good move is another managers bad move.

perhaps the solution to this would be a managers good move is the whole gameworlds bad move.

translated this would mean no private transfers. 24 hour auctions for EVERYTHING

I know that was probs a joke but maybe we need to consider the way transfers work in the first season. An initial restriction of some kind might be needed to protect managers not in the know (a max transfer fee for example).

[101011]

Can we have no early sales tax on pre-selected initial squads?

[MyNameIsJohn]

I would agree with you but then doesn't the problem become that whoever can fleece the most new users in the shortest amount of time gets a huge advantage?

They'll always be an element of that but since you can only realise the acquisition fee of a player in the first 7 days, this should be constrained to a large extent.

[Dan MNK]

Personally I think picking my own initial is the best thing about fml cos of the excitement, but i can see why this is being discussed and some good points are made, but i always try to find gems and go for all regen teams in the gameworld's i have been in and i wont be able to swap any of my players for regens on the free agents list will i? :/

Also, if people do see a regen they like and sell some players to get him, it starts a wage auction instead of just signing him there will likely be a bidding war if he's a good regen, starting high wages at the start.

I'm not overly bothered about it but i would prefer to keep it the way it is, its fine as it is, when i logged into the last gameworld i joined about 75% of the players i would have liked were locked for the first couple of days anyway and got like one player i heard of in my initial (josezf kanta :P), so imo the current system is fine and people that join in are still not at a disadvantage.

SI argued that nobody is at a disadvantage with the new system for months and months, so why change now? People cannot suddenly be at a disadvantage without any changes?

But like i said i'm not too fussed, just mean's loads of people wont be able to start how they want with a select stratergy.

[Izo]

I'm all for preselected squads.
My suggestions will be:
- u r given a preselected squad, and u can't change it. U can either confirm it or do it again and get a new squad that u r stuck with.
- u get 16 players in ur initial squad.
- if u want to add players, u have to do it in wage auctions.
- u have 2 options when picking up ur squad (what is the max wage budget, and how much of the initial 500K u want to use).

[Ov Collyer]

I know that was probs a joke but maybe we need to consider the way transfers work in the first season. An initial restriction of some kind might be needed to protect managers not in the know (a max transfer fee for example).

It's an interesting suggestion for sure.

No private bids season 1.

[Izo]

It's an interesting suggestion for sure.

No private bids season 1.

I like it

[mdbussen]

They'll always be an element of that but since you can only realise the acquisition fee of a player in the first 7 days, this should be constrained to a large extent.

We've seen it before that new users don't realize this though. They will get a bid of 200k for a player with an ACQ fee of 50k and stupidly accept it, not realizing that they won't see any of the profit!

[mdbussen]

It's an interesting suggestion for sure.

No private bids season 1.

I personally feel this is a little TOO restrictive... wouldn't this imply that player swaps wouldn't be allowed either?

It's very difficult to try and keep new users from being taken advantage of without eliminating the freedom of the transfer market... Personally I would like to see a "mentoring" element coded into the client whereby new users are assigned an experienced user as their point of contact for any questions they may have about the game for their first season or so to avoid any foolish mistakes. This tends to present its own set of problems but would go a fair way towards eliminating some of the exploitation methods that unsavory characters may employ at the start of a gameworld...

[101011]

Could have chose 5 players for your initial sqaud for 250k confirm that sqaud and run the auto-select on the other 11-15 (which you can't change)

[T-Bag]

Locked squads - Absolutely essential. I really hate the whole copy and paste-a-thon of a new GW and having to take a day off work etc

Sure there will still be some imbalance and not everyone is going to get an equal squad but it will be a damn sight fairer than it is now. But this is the reason you need transfers in the first season to give people chance to shape their own squads. You know there is a problem with the long term prospects when people refuse to join a 5 day old GW with the current system!

I'm not going to say too much more because i've gone on about this a lot before

(for the record, I got angry about something or other and released my high PA youths from my lists 4 days into live GW and signed some chumps instead ! The current beta squad is from a different list )

[T-Bag]

Just to follow on though.

How many players should you get ? What should the total AF ££ be ? How much money should you have left over ? What wage total should you be aiming for ?

[mdbussen]

Just to follow on though.

How many players should you get ? What should the total AF ££ be ? How much money should you have left over ? What wage total should you be aiming for ?

I would say everybody should get 18 players... this allows for a starting 11 + 7 subs.

total AF/money left over shouldn't matter so long as the squads are balanced in terms of CA/PA. Some people will have slightly more money left over but some people will have slightly better players as well so that's how it works out... so long as things are reasonably balanced at the beginning of a gameworld people can't have too many complaints.

The appropriate wage target is another discussion entirely and seems to me to be the biggest area of concern.. I would like to see all teams approximately balanced in wages (i.e. within 10k-20k of each other) but I'm not sure how hard this would be to achieve... I think this is information SI will have to grab from the database and discover through beta testing.

[Dan MNK]

Everybody would have to have the same money spent, otherwise people will complain that somebody got aguero blah blah before them because they got the same ability squad but 100k more money left over or something.

[Steve Atherton]

One of the initial "highlights" of my FML gaming experience was hand picking the initial squad. Yes I did join as early as I could and, yes I did have a list of players I was after. They were almost exclusively youngsters (Not regens) and normally I was able to sign about 8 to 10. They then formed the basis of my team. I did not sell them but it did take about 3 to 4 seasons to get some reasonable success. By this time they were about 20yrs old. Obviously better managers could achieve more but generally I was in the top 20 - 50 youth, but struggled to get into the top 100 senior until season 5 onwards.

Boringly I chose the same route in about 6 GW's. I would add that I am retired and so am able to be more flexible with my time (Possible divorce apart!).

I only state the above because if there was one player who would object to pre-selected squads then it would probably be me. BUT if it improves the play (To which I am addicted anyway) and leads to far more active GW's then let's do it.

My concerns/thoughts would be (and some/all have been mentioned):

- Preselected squad should take a set amount of the transfer and wages budget for each team (Say 85%). Leaving a small amount for the signing of free agent(s), probably regens.

- CA/PA would have to be balanced as best as possible.

- I have always started with a young team, hoping to build them up over a number of seasons. Would we have any input into the age of the players? Could every team have a number of regens allocated?

- Could the transfer budget be increased to take into account "locked squads". This would give a better assurance of quality and the possibility of adding to your squad early on.

- Allow transfers/swaps from early on as someone else may have the player (s) you really want and vice-versa. I take the point about new manager's being taken advantage of, but if there was 100% early sales tax and/or eg a "large red message (?)" stating any difference in AF/MV then hopefully that could help.

- Finally - I have suggested elsewhere - but could the pre-selected squad include the manager in regen form. This would give an added interest and motivation to see "himself" succeed (Which would have to be over say, 12+ seasons)?

[Dinamiteru]

I think can be a good idea, but letting people to choose some parameters to select the squad.
As an example, I only sign players with aggression 15+ for my team. No one with less 15 aggression will play for my team. Other anagers wants only players from one country, or maybe only youth players, so think we should be able to define a few parameters to get the squad autoselected.
Not a lot, to avoid dirty tricks on it.
And on the theme of restricting transfers fo 1st season, I had always asked myself if FML could work well with a transfer system a little more "real". I mean, as we have 4 weeks in a season, and assuming the first week as preseason, only be able to transfer players on 1st week and on 3rd week. And maybe including a list of players avalaible to play in a Football Association, so each team send a list of players at the begining of the 2nd week, before league starting, and only can use a players in a competition if he is on the list, as is done in real life UEFA competitions. This could give another diension to the strategy game when planning the season and your next signings, and aking injuries have a greater imact.
But well, don´t know if could be finlly playable or no, just an idea.

[ptr]

What happens if you join or reset after the first season (e.g. season 2). I would expect you'd get to choose your squad like normal.

Would this create an imbalance towards players who joined in season 2? I can't see it myself, but you never know.

[Ov Collyer]

Yeah that's a good point ptr - I missed this from my original post.

Tentative plan was that preselected squads would apply during season 1 only.

Thereafter, you can do as you choose.

The nervous part of me thinks that might lead to a spate of restarts for season 2 though :S

[Methos]

The nervous part of me thinks that might lead to a spate of restarts for season 2 though :S

you need to make sure then that the good players are taken during the first season. then there would be absolutely no point in restarting

[Dinamiteru]

What happens if you join or reset after the first season (e.g. season 2). I would expect you'd get to choose your squad like normal.

Would this create an imbalance towards players who joined in season 2? I can't see it myself, but you never know.

Think the way in wich is designed is the same for managers joining first day, 4th season or restarting team on 195th season, all of them being assigned an initial squad, to make all initial teams as balanced as possible... But maybe I´ wrong .

[Dinamiteru]

Yeah that's a good point ptr - I missed this from my original post.

Tentative plan was that preselected squads would apply during season 1 only.

Thereafter, you can do as you choose.

The nervous part of me thinks that might lead to a spate of restarts for season 2 though :S

Yes, I was wrong lol

[T-Bag]

The nervous part of me thinks that might lead to a spate of restarts for season 2 though :S

I can't see benefit to this unless there's something i'm not thinking of?

[Inter Matalan]

for both types of GW, a total random would be better!!!!

SHould be 500k to get a team, 100k wages, 10 seniors, 6 youths in each team!! and can choose what formation to suit the players u get pre selected.!

Sorted

[Steviedaniels]

Im all for pre selected squads being implemented into the start of both newgen and returning star worlds,

However I think they would need to be run on a wizard, giving you a finite number of 'goes' (maybe 5 or so) so that the final selection you have to accept.

I dont think giving one squad and forcing it to be accepted is a good idea, we all have different ideas of how we want to play on FML thats what makes it so interesting and crucially NOT like the FM series where you do have to lump it when you take control of a lower level team and make best of what you have. In FML its my team so I want them to fit into my criteria, I believe this can still be achieved with pre selection though.



I think it would be best run so that you tailor the selection in different ways:

• Formation
• Nationalities
• Ages
• Wage and AQ Budgets

I also think that to give further scope you could assign the wizard to go for certain players types a bit like the AI teams we currently have are weighted, If you prefer strong players/tall players/creative players you can ask it to find you players that fit the criteria you tick, or if you prefer flair and pace then you can go for that.

The problem point here is that Im still wondering about the question I asked earlier on in a previous thread, I was concerned that by auto selecting a squad that are specifically youth the engine allocates the very best youth to try and use as much of your initial budget and wages as possible,

Ive seen this have devastating effects on early worlds where the kids acquired were sold off at a later date for sums in the millions, giving the manager who got them an immense advantage.... is it still possible to do this or not? And how do you get round it? I would be extremely worried about this taking place in both the new types of world as a way of cherry picking the very best youth with no need for any knowledge of the database.

All the players that have a price that makes them obtainable at the start of the GW, should be locked so that they can only be hauled out by the auto selecting process at the start and obviously these squads should be as even as possible. Im not sure if it would be possible to find an optimum amount of CA spread out over the squad depending on the amount of initial cash and wages the user allowed for use by the auto select process. If they only allow 300k to be spent then the CA needs to be lowered accordingly, the manager might want to invest heavily in youth academies early for example and they should be allowed to do this if they want too. These players could them be unlocked after say a month for all to bid on in wage auctions should they not have been signed on in initial squads

All the very best players can remain as they are and be obtained as you grow in size, I dont like the idea of them being assigned straight away as suggested earlier as I think we need the early growth stages, when you start off the club cant handle large wage bills and clubs need time to develop their financial structure gradually signing these players at a later stage.

Cant think of anything else at the moment, any comments appreciated

[jp_footy]

Yeah that's a good point ptr - I missed this from my original post.

Tentative plan was that preselected squads would apply during season 1 only.

Thereafter, you can do as you choose.

The nervous part of me thinks that might lead to a spate of restarts for season 2 though :S

Your right.

[jp_footy]

Nobody will have judging potential and nobody will know any players, so don't use pre-selected squads Newgen gws, but for for returning stars gws i think it's a necessity.

[Methos]

Nobody will have judging potential and nobody will know any players, so don't use pre-selected squads Newgen gws

there are still techniques and tricks I don't want to share (like filters even though filters are kinda weak compared to what else there is available) that can give you the edge if you sign to the gameworld first or early. the advantage of knowing those tricks can still make the difference on your way to the top even with preselected squads. those tricks will make you do better deals than somebody who doesn't know them. But it still won't be as easy as selecting a squad first.

[gnomon]

there are still techniques and tricks I don't want to share (like filters even though filters are kinda weak compared to what else there is available) that can give you the edge if you sign to the gameworld first or early. the advantage of knowing those tricks can still make the difference on your way to the top even with preselected squads. those tricks will make you do better deals than somebody who doesn't know them. But it still won't be as easy as selecting a squad first.

so you are telling us that there are some managers who play the game better than others ?


Ov why do you want to put more restrictions in this game? Dont do that, Tax this, no transfers, no no no .

No private bids season 1.

Eh? To prevent what ? Give us free will and let peeps decide for themselves. Once again you are thinking to do the same mistakes ! Dont you learn anything ? The reason that you opened so many new GWs its the exact reason you are thinking to do what you think in this thread.

[trainspotter]

Yeah that's a good point ptr - I missed this from my original post.

Tentative plan was that preselected squads would apply during season 1 only.

Thereafter, you can do as you choose.

The nervous part of me thinks that might lead to a spate of restarts for season 2 though :S

If people did decide to restart for the second season then it would surely be a gamble and would be their choice to do so.

The vast majority of good <500k players will have already been signed by people and the recently released <500k players are likely to go into wage auctions very quickly. Added to that are the disadvantages of losing out on a season's worth of income and reputation growth.

My opinion is that anyone joining after the first season should be able to select their own squad. Anything to incentivise people into existing GWs has to be a good thing!

[JimmyLad]

so you are telling us that there are some managers who play the game better than others ?

Well, no, I think the point was more that if a 'better' manager logged in first they have a better pool of players to pick from than 'even better' manager who logs in last and is picking from a pool thats been picked over by 999 players beforehand; how true this advantage is, is up to you. Obviously some managers are better at picking players and creating formations to get the most out of them and this idea favours them, if anyone, in my opinion; you use what you have for the meantime while leaving your mark and building for what you want in the future.

Maybe some wiggle-room can be provided in some aspects, but I see no reason to need fully-tied restrictions (to better balance), any one nation team can be built over the course of the first season or two, in the same way that everyone else will be building too; if all the pre-selected teams are balanced, no-one should be 'set for life.' Similarly all-youth teams will invest in an academy and use their pre-selected team to bridge the gap. Admittedly there may be issues with people wanting more DMs and what not, but for every person that uses one there are plenty that do not; and if you can provide your spare goal threat in exchange for their domineering defensive monster that isn't really required then its likely a done-deal.

[gnomon]

and why a new restriction should be implemented in the game Jimmy? Everyone who wants to be online at the server start will be...

[GuitarMan]

and why a new restriction should be implemented in the game Jimmy? Everyone who wants to be online at the server start will be...

And those of us who have jobs, and can not get off work? we are just stuck with being second best are we?

[JimmyLad]

Because not 'everyone' who wants to be can be online at a specific moment in time; on the same logic theres no reason why there should be a 'restriction' on someone who joins 24 hours 'late' when the pre-season period is longer than that.

[Ov Collyer]

so you are telling us that there are some managers who play the game better than others ?


Ov why do you want to put more restrictions in this game? Dont do that, Tax this, no transfers, no no no .



Eh? To prevent what ? Give us free will and let peeps decide for themselves. Once again you are thinking to do the same mistakes ! Dont you learn anything ? The reason that you opened so many new GWs its the exact reason you are thinking to do what you think in this thread.

In terms of your first point re: some managers playing the game better - refer to my opening post. To quote myself "The way we see it is that it should be your skill and judgment over a longer period of time that separates managers from each other - not the decisions (however skilful) made during an exceptionally small proportion of a GW's existence.".

In terms of "free will", is this the same "free will" that led to people making as much money via DYMs involving inexperienced newcomers as they could until we put a stop to it....

No idea what you're talking about re: opening new GWs and how it relates to this thread btw. I think it's been well documented by Marc and Bertie why GWs were opened when they were opened.

[Methos]

so you are telling us that there are some managers who play the game better than others ?

What I am debating for the most part is that someone shouldn't be rewarded for having the capability to sign in first in the gameworld. Regen or Real in every case whoever signs in first get the best players value wise. This should not happen. Whoever is better should not be measured by whoever signed first.

[gnomon]

but noone should restrict this methos. its a planned and announced(a lot of time before) specific time of the gw start. why is this a problem ? Those that cant log in ofc they ll have a disvantage, but life is a bitch right ?

[trainspotter]

I don't think designing a game around the premise of "life is a bitch" is an especially good idea

[bazrah99]

but noone should restrict this methos. its a planned and announced(a lot of time before) specific time of the gw start. why is this a problem ? Those that cant log in ofc they ll have a disvantage, but life is a bitch right ?

The original idea of first come first served was a bad idea on reflection and you will be a definite minority thinking otherwise.

[gnomon]

In terms of your first point re: some managers playing the game better - refer to my opening post. To quote myself "The way we see it is that it should be your skill and judgment over a longer period of time that separates managers from each other - not the decisions (however skilful) made during an exceptionally small proportion of a GW's existence.".

In terms of "free will", is this the same "free will" that led to people making as much money via DYMs involving inexperienced newcomers as they could until we put a stop to it....

No idea what you're talking about re: opening new GWs and how it relates to this thread btw. I think it's been well documented by Marc and Bertie why GWs were opened when they were opened.

Dym is an other issue. Which for me is right. Everyone has the intelligence to understand how dyms work and if his capable of winning one. With this rule you prevent peeps to be stupid, or making a bad call, judging their teams.

on how this thread relates with the new gws and the reset- Im sure you understand the reason of the whole reset thing huh? dont let me explain in a post, go read the 4k posts on the reset thread. Si opened so many Gws to keep customers happy and those servers would never be able to fill up with managers (adding to this the non existant promo of the game) so you had to do something really radical to save the game.

You cant measure someones abitlity to pick the right players even in a small proportion of time as you say. Its like taking the mouse of my hand in a FPS game. Why dont you "see" this ? i cant understand, im not talking about science here. Im talking about simple things that measure our skills in order to make the teams clones of each other.

Ofc the more skilled players overtime will be better, and will have much more success, but i cant understand why not to let em do it from day 1.

[JimmyLad]

Perhaps, Gnomon, but basing a long term game on the premise that a sign-in window of a few hours could (potentially) drastically affect your future when the period for sign-ups and pre-season is nearly a week is a bit short-sighted. The fact that a few hours after the start can almost be deemed 'late' at current could almost be termed a travesty. I accept that early signers will have the 'advantage' of the bigger pool to auto-accept from and adversely the latest of the late will have a (perhaps significantly) reduced pool, but on the whole someone signing up on day two should be in the same kind of boat as someone on day three, beyond the missed opportunities of whatever players were traded that day before.

[Mustang Shooting Stars]

Nobody will have judging potential and nobody will know any players, so don't use pre-selected squads Newgen gws, but for for returning stars gws i think it's a necessity.

I totally agree.

I want to hand select my squad in newgen worlds. The newgen worlds create as much of a levelplaying field as you feasibly can in that regard.

You have to leave some room for skill in the game and it's also a really fun aspect in my opinion to handpick your team. With the new income/reputation/success stuff being introduced everyone will be encouraged to pick a balanced and competitive squad from the off, so problem solved.

If someone can spot a potentially brilliant - but unknown regen player - without JP, then good luck to them.

And if they can't, well, tough.

[JimmyLad]

Si opened so many Gws to keep customers happy

As far as I understood it, part of the reasoning that customers wanted new gameworlds was so that they could potentially benefit from the exact system you're defending; so how will the reset be any better in this regard?

You cant measure someones abitlity to pick the right players even in a small proportion of time.

No you can't, but a player can 'doctor' or 'fake' his ability to do so, using prior experience & lists to do so. Obviously in a gameworld using real players the ability to do so is enhanced by real-life reputations but only being able to do so player-by-player through trades and transfers minimises that casualties compared to one player snapping up all of their list to begin with.

Ofc the more skilled players overtime will be better, and will have much more success, but i cant understand why not to let em do it from day 1.

But the current system doesn't do this any better than the new one suggested? The current view as far as I understand is that a 'skilled player' who signs up near the end of the pre-season will have to 'work harder' than a 'bad manager' who signs up in the first minute.

[bazrah99]

Dym is an other issue. Which for me is right. Everyone has the intelligence to understand how dyms work and if his capable of winning one. With this rule you prevent peeps to be stupid, or making a bad call, judging their teams.

on how this thread relates with the new gws and the reset- Im sure you understand the reason of the whole reset thing huh? dont let me explain in a post, go read the 4k posts on the reset thread. Si opened so many Gws to keep customers happy and those servers would never be able to fill up with managers (adding to this the non existant promo of the game) so you had to do something really radical to save the game.

You cant measure someones abitlity to pick the right players even in a small proportion of time as you say. Its like taking the mouse of my hand in a FPS game. Why dont you "see" this ? i cant understand, im not talking about science here. Im talking about simple things that measure our skills in order to make the teams clones of each other.

Ofc the more skilled players overtime will be better, and will have much more success, but i cant understand why not to let em do it from day 1.

The better manager will have more success over time but why give an unnecessary advantage to some people from the start? Your FPS example is a good one as the current system is like giving some managers a GOD cheat and allowing all the others to get killed.

It is quite simply an unfair system. It is not just about not allowing the best managers to rule from the start, it is allowing everyone a fair chance.

[trainspotter]

I accept that early signers will have the 'advantage' of the bigger pool to auto-accept from and adversely the latest of the late will have a (perhaps significantly) reduced pool, but on the whole someone signing up on day two should be in the same kind of boat as someone on day three, beyond the missed opportunities of whatever players were traded that day before.

I don't think that will be a problem as enough squads are generated at the start for a full capacity amount of managers (i.e. 1000 generated squads in the current GW set-up). Whether you log-in in the first minute or several days later you will still just get randomly assigned one of these pre-defined squads which, theoretically, should all be of an equal standard. I don't remember the exact timescale but the unused squads get released after a set amount of time (maybe a week, not sure though).

[JimmyLad]

Ah makes sense, and hopefully works well, I (wrongly) assumed that a team of X players was picked from the current pool to a particular standard, in a more restricted version of the current auto-pick. Thankfully this method should hopefully allow even footing regardless of what period of the pre-season they joined. Very good.

[gnomon]

When im saying "life is a bitch", i dont mean that the game should be based in this philosophy. But in some occasions thats the way it should be. What can you do for a level play field ? Give exactly the same money, exactly the same players, with the same potential, and start... And wheres the fun ? After one season ? Then those that will login in the next season will say again that it is unfair ! Same ****... What i mean in all the posts is to stop handling the customers as babies and feed em in the mouth.

[Steviedaniels]

Dym is an other issue. Which for me is right. Everyone has the intelligence to understand how dyms work and if his capable of winning one. With this rule you prevent peeps to be stupid, or making a bad call, judging their teams.

on how this thread relates with the new gws and the reset- Im sure you understand the reason of the whole reset thing huh? dont let me explain in a post, go read the 4k posts on the reset thread. Si opened so many Gws to keep customers happy and those servers would never be able to fill up with managers (adding to this the non existant promo of the game) so you had to do something really radical to save the game.

You cant measure someones abitlity to pick the right players even in a small proportion of time as you say. Its like taking the mouse of my hand in a FPS game. Why dont you "see" this ? i cant understand, im not talking about science here. Im talking about simple things that measure our skills in order to make the teams clones of each other.

Ofc the more skilled players overtime will be better, and will have much more success, but i cant understand why not to let em do it from day 1.

One of the big reasons why older GW's collapsed was becuase people were being taken advantage of when they joined up by people who loved DYM's and exploited them too the full. The 'view' that joining late meant no success was possible was further enhanced by this and the fact these teams accelerated away in the early weeks. Thats why we need these measures, we arnt talking about a long time of restriction here folks simply the opening moments of a very long journey, the more even we can make it the better for everyone as far as Im concerned.

Its the new and inexperienced managers we want to protect here, if like alot of you here and myself have been playing since early beta stages then you know how it all works and we know how to hand pick the best players on low wages/low AQ but high ability, its simple to us, but its just this which is making FML a tough place for others. I dont want them falling behind from day 1 at all, perhaps im alone in wanting people to all have a good time rather than fill my own trophy cabinet?

If we cant make it even and then nurture a community of all different types of manager then we are in real trouble and will end up in the same place as we are now 18 months arfter the reset. With all us hardcore managers who know the system still clinging onto the few human v human matches we actually manage a week.

We can all shape our squads in the coming seasons just how we want too regardless of an opening day pre select.

Also as regards to the comment about not implmenting it in regen worlds, I think its just as necessary there as in returning star worlds, its not the names as much as the CA of the players as well, experienced players no how to locate the cheapest waged players with the highest ability and this will also lead to an uneven field.

[Methos]

perhaps im alone in wanting people to all have a good time rather than fill my own trophy cabinet?

you are not alone. I am all about protecting new people and their gaming experience. These new people will provide me with the challenge later on. If I exploit them from the start they will be gone and I will have nobody to challenge me.

[Methos]

but noone should restrict this methos. its a planned and announced(a lot of time before) specific time of the gw start. why is this a problem ? Those that cant log in ofc they ll have a disvantage, but life is a bitch right ?

my logic about restrictions that protect new or casual users is that i need these people to be there to challenge me. without them my gaming experience will suffer because of reduced numbers.

i will defend new and casual users the most I can. they are the key to the success of this game.

[Methos]

You have to leave some room for skill in the game

skill != sign in time

[Steve Atherton]

One of the big reasons why older GW's collapsed was becuase people were being taken advantage of when they joined up by people who loved DYM's and exploited them too the full. The 'view' that joining late meant no success was possible was further enhanced by this and the fact these teams accelerated away in the early weeks. Thats why we need these measures, we arnt talking about a long time of restriction here folks simply the opening moments of a very long journey, the more even we can make it the better for everyone as far as Im concerned.

Its the new and inexperienced managers we want to protect here, if like alot of you here and myself have been playing since early beta stages then you know how it all works and we know how to hand pick the best players on low wages/low AQ but high ability, its simple to us, but its just this which is making FML a tough place for others. I dont want them falling behind from day 1 at all, perhaps im alone in wanting people to all have a good time rather than fill my own trophy cabinet?

If we cant make it even and then nurture a community of all different types of manager then we are in real trouble and will end up in the same place as we are now 18 months arfter the reset. With all us hardcore managers who know the system still clinging onto the few human v human matches we actually manage a week.

We can all shape our squads in the coming seasons just how we want too regardless of an opening day pre select.

Also as regards to the comment about not implmenting it in regen worlds, I think its just as necessary there as in returning star worlds, its not the names as much as the CA of the players as well, experienced players no how to locate the cheapest waged players with the highest ability and this will also lead to an uneven field.

Very good points - totally agree. Just need the mechanism to get there, which is easier said than done.

[Rb]

Having been through several game world starts now I've seen first hand the advantage the first users in get when hand picking players. During beta and the introduction of GW22 I was one of the first in and I got a massive advantage because I was basically one of the first in.

As has been touched on. If the users are skillful enough they will come out on top anyway, regardless of their ability. I like the idea that your team is assigned a squad. But I certainly agree there should be a lot of pre-set options to choose from when you start up. This will put everyone on a level playing field to start with. In addition to this the removal of DYM competitions 'should' make the gameworlds one hell of a lot more balanced for quite a while to come.

Maybe the way to go is to remove the initial '500k' you get to buy these players (In the old system). Then instead, each have an allocated squad and get given X amount to either invest in one player, save, or invest in such things as stadia etc on your first day. If the skills are being redone it could be a good way of starting off an option for the skillpath... You choose your skillpath and get a big discount on your first 'whatever' down that skill road. Probably needs thinking through, but I think it could heavily incentivse and explain what users need to do at the gameworld start, as opposed to the horribly cut-throat atmosphere you have in current gameworld starts.


When a user first starts a game, it really does need to have a pure introductory aspect to it, graphically orientated (in my opinion) and very quick to navigate to pick up the information. This is something I've noticed that has turned a lot of users I've shown the game off from, pre selected squads are a great addition to this as it makes it a lot easier for all to just start and get into the game.

[Aquarius_DJ]

Use the whole 500k transfer budget and all the wages on 2 completely random squads.

16 senior players
16 youth players

No tranfer restrictions

Sounds like an average football club in my opinion.

Don't want your 30 y/o players? Put them on the transfer list. Don't like a youth team? Sell them for profit! Anyone equal from the start and anyone can do as he or she likes.

My 2 cents!

[darrkespur]

I like a lot of the ideas on here, but ptr's idea of having a small pool of players available for each player (40-50) from which he picks a squad of 18 seems the most practical in keeping things fair without completely removing the fun of the first few days. Essentially this is the same thing as what is already done - a small pool of players is unlocked when each manager begins. The difference is, the initial user is only allowed to select from that small pool, not from the free agents list at large.

making the most of that little pool of 50 players would be a neat challenge to keep new users excited but it would be relatively easy to stabilise the pool selection to keep things fair.

[LatZee]

Having been through several game world starts now I've seen first hand the advantage the first users in get when hand picking players. During beta and the introduction of GW22 I was one of the first in and I got a massive advantage because I was basically one of the first in.

I do hope that the players auto select will not work like the one at that time :P my GW22 story was a bit more complex, got there on day 2 with a 24 hour transfer ban due to first finishing a completely normal transfer obligation I had made a deal on before deciding to switch from GW8. Idiotic mod decision, but whatever, so I couldn't approach any players, it was either wait 24 hours or use auto select wizard. Decided to wait and put together the team the way I wanted, but while giving the wizard a try just fun, I got an idea how to exploit it :P

It was, basically, use normal search to find a player you like and would at that point take normally to your provisional squad. For example, I remember Andres Chitiva catching my eye at that point. Use wizard, put your nationality as Colombian, his at that point in time club, Pachuca, as your favourite team, and get your squad. There was very good chance that you would get him, if not, release all and repeat. Once you do get him, release all other players, and search for another player you want. Repeat the process while retaining players you want. It took a bit more that half an hour and couple dozen auto selects which probably stressed server a bit, but basically I put together exactly the team I wanted, just like I would if I was able to approach them normally :P so I just hope that anything like that wouldn't be possible under new system

[trainspotter]

LatZee

It does show though that if SI leave any potential loophole then people will use it. I know that I will look at whatever system SI choose and find whatever ways I can of using it to my advantage - to be honest I'd be stupid not to! Probably the only one that people won't be able to exploit is the zero choice option.

I would like the scope for freedom suggested by Ptr but my mind is already racing about ways that I could cheat such a system

[Amanatat17]

Sorry if it has been already mentioned, but I would like the preselected squad to be a little based in the managers favorite team or country, in the same way the "Auto Select Provisional Squad" worked..

[dimgeor21]

I TOTALLY DISAGREE!!! i think that we have to be free to choose anyone we want
so the current format of the initial squad selection i think have to stay as it is