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Thread: Patch 8.0.1. Shots to Goal Ratio not fixed - SHOCKING!! SI Please answer - believe to be related to Closing down and Long shots bug

  1. #801
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    quote:
    Originally posted by gambleTL:
    Its a frigging game, how can you compare it to a death penalty haha
    If you don't like the game, why not sell it. Quit whining because all your doing is ruining everyone elses experience


    I buy a car. I paid over 17k for it. After 2 weeks of driving I begin to notice a few problems. Breaks don't work as well, Doors dont shut properly, seat belt doesnt work, steering is doggy. What do I do? Say "that's life, i will get over it"

  2. #802
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    yeah sell it, who wants a game that doesn't works?
    Evryone else experience!?! this forum is full of people who don't like the game.

    So you just stop whining " look at me i like the game. i'm happy with everything they give me, even a bag of **** for which i paid 50€"

  3. #803
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    This forum is full of people who have nothing else to do but just whine about a minor issue on a video game. Why don't you actually play football instead of pretending your the next fergie
    you people make me laugh lol...get a life

  4. #804
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    WTF are you doing on this forum. you obviously don't know a **** of football management games.
    I doubt you actually have the game.
    The match engine is as good as the most important feature in the game, but you call it something minor.

    That's pathetic. you don't have the game nor a life, so you come on forums to tell people to search a life. Someone ban this useless idiot

  5. #805
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    quote:
    Originally posted by gambleTL:
    This forum is full of people who have nothing else to do but just whine about a minor issue on a video game. Why don't you actually play football instead of pretending your the next fergie
    you people make me laugh lol...get a life


    I smell a troll...

  6. #806
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    i do have the game i just came on to get a patch

  7. #807
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    Well get your patch and don't make useless reply's. so fornicate off

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    sorry sir haha

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    quote:
    Originally posted by gambleTL:
    well thats the game......get over it !!



    Why dont you please shut up and dont comeinto this thread cos ill tell yer what if it wasnt for people 'complaining'nothing would get noticed or fixed!!

    grow up and think of the bigger picture.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Zoolok:
    You're not reading what PaulC has said... The match engine will tweak the results, so that amount of scored goals is the same as in real life.

    This means that if you create a super tactic the match engine won't let you score.

    But, what it also means is that, if you suck at football, the match engine will help you score, so that in the end you get a realistic amount of goals.

    And that sucks.


    lol i totally agree with that .
    Realistically speaking , are you going to play a game that success or failure are not depending on the way you play but from game engine?
    OK lets say you play it , are you going not to lough with people claiming that this is a simulation ?

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Themistofelis:

    lol i totally agree with that .
    Realistically speaking , are you going to play a game that success or failure are not depending on the way you play but from game engine?
    OK lets say you play it , are you going not to lough with people claiming that this is a simulation ?



    LOL, there's more to that! Apparently, this "fine tuning" was introduced to keep the amount of goals on a "realistic" level... But they've managed to do it in a completely unrealistic way :P

    Bit of a paradox, this one?

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    So if i go back to beta patch i wont have this problem anymore?

    what were main diffs between beta and final patch?

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Zoolok:
    LOL, there's more to that! Apparently, this "fine tuning" was introduced to keep the amount of goals on a "realistic" level... But they've managed to do it in a completely unrealistic way :P

    Bit of a paradox, this one?


    I think this is the core of the problem , the engine should determine how the game is played not the score line ,there is not enough time for a team to make 50 shots in the game .
    In a match where AI can not follow it should try to play full defensive , man mark etc not to pretent that everything is okay and let the bionic goalie save everything.
    This is a very simplistic way of solving things but i do give SI the excuse that they were under pressure from the community for a patch.

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    quote:
    i do have the game i just came on to get a patch


    This guy isn't going to feel so superior and amused when the patch screws up his game!!!!

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    it hasn't screwed up my game..its awesome

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    gambleTL you should send your match files to SI since you are the first enjoying game with 8.01. This thread could have been 140 pages, but most people get back to beta patch like me, so they stop moaning. If the wouldn't be the beta patch it could have been the worst FM IMO.

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    He most certainly is not the first. I have seen quite a few posts of people enjoying the game.

    Of course it isnt perfect but there is still people out there enjoying it, I'm one of them. If I didnt enjoy it I'd be playing something else.

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    beta patch is awful, u score far too many goals

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    The biggest difference that make me prefer FM over the other games are that the realism on FM. I also agree there are other aspects as well, but the realism is the biggest plus on FM side. 8.01 patch kills the realism and the whole idea of management IMO. 50 shots per game half of them on target 20 of the shots 1v1 and you score only 1 or 2 goals. This kills the realism.

    I also don't agree with the super hipper whatever tactics. As a manager your job is to create tactics, so that your team will have more chances. If you are able to create a tactic, so that your team have 50 shots in 4 out of every 5 games; your fans will worship you and your team will be sitting on top of the table. There wouldn't be an example of getting 5 points out of 5 games when you have 40 shots per game on average IRL. However in FM08+8.01 you create tactics to have 40 shots per game on average, and 1 goal per game on average. For god sake you are a manager, you can't get into pitch and score for the players. That would be a different game like PES08.

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    Made a thread about this some time ago, but i'll post it again.

    Many of those who denies this problem say that "these things happen once in a while". Indeed, they do. Like the Chelsea-Blackburn game. But this many times in one season..? For the record, I still finished 5th in the league.

    Newcastle - insane results

  21. #821
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    gettin this problem after what i said lol!

    at crew, got a good stat dude who cant score for ish! division 2 and his finishing is 13 and composure 17 and he has scored one from about 100 chances lol!

    very annoying when u see crap ai strikers rip u apart and score every opportunity and my dude gets about 10 shots on goal a game and doesnt score

    i need fraizer campbell back!!

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    I've been playing around with the game trying to see what causes this. I have to say, if you play with wingers then you don't seem to see this problem. I was playing 3 central mids with a DM behind them, and hitting this bug every match. I changed my formation to use wingers (standard 4-4-2), and apart from the period where the team was adapting to the new formation, I no longer saw the super goalie thing on a consistent basis (i.e. you get an occasional freak game where the goalie has a blinder, but that is probably realistic IMHO).

    So it seems to me playing without width seems to trigger this.

  23. #823
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    My last 6 games has seen the opposition GK be man of the match. Can you believe that 6!!!
    Even though I won those games by a goal or two it was obvious they played like this to keep my goals down to a realistic level. Return of the SUPER GK.

  24. #824
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    quote:
    Originally posted by BHAMILTON:
    So let me ask you this....do you try and create your own super tactics? are u the type of player who edits Ronaldo into Coventry City in 2007..I bet you are bcse that is what causes this issue....

    Merry xmas by the way


    Last time I looked a 442, direct, high-tempo, counter-attacking isnt a super-tactic.

  25. #825
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    Does anyone else think a poor shots-goals ratio is down to formation? Personally I never find problems creating chances, but based purely on formation i put some away and some i don't. It's like the game focussed more on whether you are dominating the match rather on the chances themselves when deciding whether they go in or not. I'm not sure if that's because they have a stock of highlights oe somwething...

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    quote:
    Originally posted by adonis:
    My last 6 games has seen the opposition GK be man of the match. Can you believe that 6!!!
    Even though I won those games by a goal or two it was obvious they played like this to keep my goals down to a realistic level. Return of the SUPER GK.
    More frequent...seen a few of them...always against me V_V

  27. #827
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    quote:
    And chelsea won and blackburn had 18 shots.
    sometimes teams don't always score all their attempts
    just enjoy the game !


    Ok let me start by saying yes i agree this does happen B]sometimes[/B]. But not virtually every single game like happens on this game. It shouldnt take 25 + chances to get one goal compared to the computers one shot one goal.

    Therefore you can not enjoy the game because it is unrealistic, unfair and unplayable.

  28. #828
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    i hate this game beyong belief right now.

    A patch is needed asap

  29. #829
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    This game is really ****ed up. I play against livorno. they just have 4 shots on target, no shots off target, and they score 3 times= 75%. I with Milan have 15 shots on target and 10 off target, and i score once= 4%. result 3-1

    This is rzally ****ing me off,and when something like this happens, i think i got the right to reload my game because it complete crap something like this happens

    Si do you know ****ing understand now why we all need that patch? Waiting another month is shooting in your own foot. In february, about 25% will have hrown his FM2008 out of the window and said: "those ******** aren't going to get any more money from me ever"

    It is in your own intrest you bring out the patch as quickly as possible.

  30. #830
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    There is a guide in the tactics forum on team talks.

    Sounds off topic? Not really. Success in Fm08 depends 60% on team talk, 30% on tactics and 10% on luck. Match engine? 0%.

    Of course this is not to deny that the shots to goal ratio and number of shots per match is unrealistic.

  31. #831
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    Don't go out and buy this game on release next year then! Do something for heaven's sake. How on earth do you think SI will change their policy of releasing broken games? By looking at some customers shouting in the forum??

    VOTE WITH YOUR WALLETS PEOPLE AND YOU WILL SEE A DIFFERENCE!

    P.S. gambleTL, I really feel sad for you...

  32. #832
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:Oh god no I thought after 2 months of moaning, threads upon threads of problems, hours and hours of workd put in by users to catch bugs and post them in the bug forums that something would have been done by now. To be honest there is no point in making an update patch at all now, totally no point what so ever. Whats the point in waiting till Feburary to start a game? What is the point? The game is done by then. Might as well wait for FM09. You guys at SI might as well concentrate on FM09 and make that better. There is no point trying to fix 08 when you could be doing FM09. When FM09 comes out it will be the same as FM08, low qaulity, unplayable game, waste of money. Really sick of this now, I just wanted a playable game thats all.


    Totally the reason I haven't bought the game yet. As usual the paying public become beta testers and we don't get a patch that fixes the annoying bugs until Feb. Anyone getting deja vu from last year and the year before?

    I'm yet another 'reader' of the forums. I've bought CM/FM since back in the Amiga days, but the last few versions of FM have caused a right old hoohar. I don't get why some people feel the need to have a go at those who are picking up the bugs. These people have PAID MONEY for a game that has annoying bugs. It's SI who should be paying THEM for beta testing and picking these bugs up. Without the 'whingers' lol, people like me would still be buying the game 6 months before it's fixed.

    Here's waiting for Feb and the testing results from those who have already bought the game. Then I may think about going to the shop to buy the game. For the moment however, I'll stick with FM07 (fully patched).

  33. #833
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    quote:
    Originally posted by andygregory:

    Totally the reason I haven't bought the game yet. As usual the paying public become beta testers and we don't get a patch that fixes the annoying bugs until Feb. Anyone getting deja vu from last year and the year before?

    Here's waiting for Feb and the testing results from those who have already bought the game. Then I may think about going to the shop to buy the game. For the moment however, I'll stick with FM07 (fully patched).


    Lol, as an experience "CMer" i have already delay to buy this game until patch 8.0.1 but still......

  34. #834
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Rickooko:
    quote:
    Originally posted by andygregory:

    Totally the reason I haven't bought the game yet. As usual the paying public become beta testers and we don't get a patch that fixes the annoying bugs until Feb. Anyone getting deja vu from last year and the year before?

    Here's waiting for Feb and the testing results from those who have already bought the game. Then I may think about going to the shop to buy the game. For the moment however, I'll stick with FM07 (fully patched).


    Lol, as an experience "CMer" i have already delay to buy this game until patch 8.0.1 but still......


    hehe well I waited until early March of this year before I went out to buy FM2007. Once I got a sense that everything was ok with the final patch, that gave me the green light.

    Waiting for the same thing this time around and I suspect I'll do the same again with FM2009. Octobers aren't definitely not same anymore....

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    quote:
    Originally posted by delibey:
    I don't think there's anything to deny. It's already been said that "we tune each part of the match engine so that over 100s of games, the average no of goals/shots on target etc is close to real life". That's perfectly alright. The problem is the match engine produces more easy one-on-one chances than it should. Players get all kinds of chances during a match but never this many completely free, unmarked one-on-ones with the ball under control. SI will have to change the coding of offensive part of the game to reflect the number of chances IRL, or at least be closer to it(this is a game after all).


    Exactly. I really makes no sense if you allow gamers to do things in game as they like, and then nerf their accomplishments and skills to reflect something which is reality. Prevent them from being brilliant cracking the game if you don't want "unrealistic" scores in a COMPUTER GAME. It would be same if you played F1 game with a Spyker and then in the last lap when you're winning your car will suddenly have its speed limiter on and some McLaren or Ferrari comes 1000 km/h and beats you just because it would reflect more reality. Decide if this is a game or a replay of real happenings.

  36. #836
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    quote:
    Originally posted by rich_barnes:
    i bet SI curse the day they decided to include the 2D match engine in there games, its the only thing that spoils the game, none of the people who i know that play fm watch it anyway.


    The problem isn't that overhead view, it only tries to represent what the match engine is calculating. So many times I've left CM 01/02 infuriated because of these "my team 30 shots, rival team 1 shot, result 0-2" matches. There was no 2D or 3D view, it was only less frustrating because you could imagine how bad your chances were (which I never believed but blamed the cheating AI).

    Personally I don't care about those views at all, I was fine with text commentary. Besides, talking about "realism", no Sir Alex Fergusons watch their team play from helicopter... Nitpicking you may say, but I think there are too much of that with tactics, transfers, training etc too. All which only make this game more difficult and troublesome to play and understand.

  37. #837
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    quote:
    Originally posted by andygregory:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:Oh god no I thought after 2 months of moaning, threads upon threads of problems, hours and hours of workd put in by users to catch bugs and post them in the bug forums that something would have been done by now. To be honest there is no point in making an update patch at all now, totally no point what so ever. Whats the point in waiting till Feburary to start a game? What is the point? The game is done by then. Might as well wait for FM09. You guys at SI might as well concentrate on FM09 and make that better. There is no point trying to fix 08 when you could be doing FM09. When FM09 comes out it will be the same as FM08, low qaulity, unplayable game, waste of money. Really sick of this now, I just wanted a playable game thats all.


    Totally the reason I haven't bought the game yet. As usual the paying public become beta testers and we don't get a patch that fixes the annoying bugs until Feb. Anyone getting deja vu from last year and the year before?

    I'm yet another 'reader' of the forums. I've bought CM/FM since back in the Amiga days, but the last few versions of FM have caused a right old hoohar. I don't get why some people feel the need to have a go at those who are picking up the bugs. These people have PAID MONEY for a game that has annoying bugs. It's SI who should be paying THEM for beta testing and picking these bugs up. Without the 'whingers' lol, people like me would still be buying the game 6 months before it's fixed.

    Here's waiting for Feb and the testing results from those who have already bought the game. Then I may think about going to the shop to buy the game. For the moment however, I'll stick with FM07 (fully patched).


    You know whats more annoying, I brought the game in Oct for 24.99. Played it, tested it and written threads and upon threads about bugs for SI to fix. Now they saying they will have a patch by Feb when the game wil drop to something like £10.99.

    Ive basically paid SI to fix something they made that I brought.

  38. #838
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:You know whats more annoying, I brought the game in Oct for 24.99. Played it, tested it and written threads and upon threads about bugs for SI to fix. Now they saying they will have a patch by Feb when the game wil drop to something like £10.99.

    Ive basically paid SI to fix something they made that I brought.


    The way things stand, SI should probably release the game in Oct/Nov at £10.99 (as it's clearly not a finished product anymore) let the public beta test it, and then up the price in Feb of the following year when the final patch becomes available.

    Either that or just sell the game at £10 boxed and then charge £5 for each of the patches, that way if you notice and are affected by any annoying bugs, you can buy a patch. A fully patched program would then have cost you approximately the current full Oct/Nov release date retail price.

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    its funny how you refer to mathematical variables and parameters set by a programmer as bugs, i would have thought it should be refered to as subjective tactial viewpoint, and i would have to agree, the coder is on glue, there is a bizzare subroutine in this version that needs amending

  40. #840
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Jopo12:
    quote:
    Originally posted by delibey:
    I don't think there's anything to deny. It's already been said that "we tune each part of the match engine so that over 100s of games, the average no of goals/shots on target etc is close to real life". That's perfectly alright. The problem is the match engine produces more easy one-on-one chances than it should. Players get all kinds of chances during a match but never this many completely free, unmarked one-on-ones with the ball under control. SI will have to change the coding of offensive part of the game to reflect the number of chances IRL, or at least be closer to it(this is a game after all).


    Exactly. I really makes no sense if you allow gamers to do things in game as they like, and then nerf their accomplishments and skills to reflect something which is reality. Prevent them from being brilliant cracking the game if you don't want "unrealistic" scores in a COMPUTER GAME. It would be same if you played F1 game with a Spyker and then in the last lap when you're winning your car will suddenly have its speed limiter on and some McLaren or Ferrari comes 1000 km/h and beats you just because it would reflect more reality. Decide if this is a game or a replay of real happenings.


    Agree, but it seems to be SIs way.

    We once had the most brilliant and realistic tactical aid in the with/without ball screens, an aid that replicated nicely a managers whiteboard and ability to show players where he wanted them positioned in certain situations.

    SI removed it because of supertactics, rather than fix the match engine issues that made some tactics ultra effective.

  41. #841

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    i personally think the tactical system in fundamentally flawed because the 2-d screen does not give you an accurate representation of why your tactics are not working, you cannot have 'bad tactics' and dominate play with more shots and yet always lose, its paradoxical, unless you want to spend 5 hours a day reading the match report, of what only some sad super***** would do, then its useless

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    i find it interesting that pretty much everyone who is complaining is mangaing the big clubs: Milan, Real madrid etc. I have done 11 seasons as manager of hitchin and have gone from conference south to league one and have yet to encounter this 'problem' (i started this game on 8.0.1.)I am having a great time, sure on some occasions i have games where i dominate and then conceed a late goal, but heck that happens week in week out in real football. The more you put into football manager, the more you get back.

    I dont expect anyone to care, goodwill appears thin on the ground these days, but i find myself visting the forums less and less, becasue every time i do all see is negativity. I have several friends who own FM08 and have never been to these forums, they all very much enjoy the game. Im not saying its perfect, that would be stupid, but for me it is a very accurate portrayal of management. If companies such as codemasters and EA cant make a competant managemnet sim then i say well done SI.

    *Let the flaming begin*

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    giblets_of_fire i am glad u like the game thats fine there seem to be a couple u guys every time someone starts a thread like this, but u and your "friends" should try and open your eyes and see that the vast majority aren't that happy, in fact we have payed good money for a product were not happy with, i think that i speak for most of us when i say that we all want this game to be great, so don't get on our case for trying to improve something most of us love to play

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    its getting more ridiculous every time. most of my games end with a final goal for the other team, always after minute 85, after i have been having chance after chance and shot after shot, not scoring, and then, they arrive once, and they score. of course, 4 out of 5 games end with the opponent GK as Man of Match

    even those games where i can win, i do it 1-0 or 2-1, and its always with a lot of missed shots and ver clear chances, that my supposedly world class strikers (robinho, agüero, sneijder) should score even with eyes closed.

    i am really tired of all this bullsh*t, and most of all with SI not acknowledging for this problem and trying to blame the managers and our poor tactics.

    i am very dissapointed.

    i will not buy any other FM game. sorry, but last year i had the same problem. after many months of waiting, it seemed that the problem was kind of solved. so i decided to buy this years game also. and again, same crap. well, not again.

    probably SI wont care much about 1 customer more or less. i dont mind. i do care about 30 euros well or bad spent.

    for a game that relies STRICKLY on realism and depth, this is a game breaking issue. FM has crappy graphics, no sound, no bells or whistles. the only thing it has going for it is REALISM. but all the charm is lost when you see aguero miss 5 one vs one every match for a complete season. or when you look at the season's results and only see 3 games where Real Madrid won with more than 1 goal of difference.

    and do not fire the crap about "your tactics suck". no, they do not suck. my team has more than 25 shots per game on average, and concedes less than 4. i can not do any more.

    so please, SI, stop playing with us and come up with a real solution to this problem.

  45. #845
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Dr.lasse:
    giblets_of_fire i am glad u like the game thats fine there seem to be a couple u guys every time someone starts a thread like this, but u and your "friends" should try and open your eyes and see that the vast majority aren't that happy, in fact we have payed good money for a product were not happy with, i think that i speak for most of us when i say that we all want this game to be great, so don't get on our case for trying to improve something most of us love to play


    when you say 'the vast majority arent that happy' what are you basing that on? Becasue im pretty sure the vast majority of people dont use these forums, there probably enjoying the game, rather than complaining about it

  46. #846
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    Ever noticed "taught a footballing lesson" and "produced a breathtaking display" only comes up in a match report that you win by a single goal?

    Usually a game you absolutely splatter them all over the pitch and win 2-1 or 3-2.

  47. #847
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Lyvean:
    Don't go out and buy this game on release next year then! Do something for heaven's sake. How on earth do you think SI will change their policy of releasing broken games? By looking at some customers shouting in the forum??

    VOTE WITH YOUR WALLETS PEOPLE AND YOU WILL SEE A DIFFERENCE!

    P.S. gambleTL, I really feel sad for you...


    I try so hard, I really do. Every year I vow not to buy the game until it's been fully patched. But then I find myself in the supermarket on some errand and I just happen to spot the new game on the shelf, (ALL-NEW! MORE REALISTIC THAN EVER! INTERNATIONAL MODULE MASSIVE OVERHAUL!) and it just jumps into my shopping basket. And then 4 hours later that familiar sinking feeling sets in and I go back to the previous version...

  48. #848
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    quote:
    when you say 'the vast majority arent that happy' what are you basing that on? Becasue im pretty sure the vast majority of people dont use these forums, there probably enjoying the game, rather than complaining about it


    giblets_of _fire u missed my point we want to improve the game, we don't complain just for the sake of complaining, and the vast majority of this thread, forum and all the people i know who have played it aren't satisfied, if u like it play it don't come in here complaining that we want to improve the game

  49. #849
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    Sorry, I didn't realise this forum is only for people who want to complain, I thought you were allowed to post if you like the game too,.

    My mistake

  50. #850
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    quote:
    Originally posted by giblets_of_fire:
    i find it interesting that pretty much everyone who is complaining is mangaing the big clubs: Milan, Real madrid etc. I have done 11 seasons as manager of hitchin and have gone from conference south to league one and have yet to encounter this 'problem' (i started this game on 8.0.1.)I am having a great time, sure on some occasions i have games where i dominate and then conceed a late goal, but heck that happens week in week out in real football. The more you put into football manager, the more you get back.

    I dont expect anyone to care, goodwill appears thin on the ground these days, but i find myself visting the forums less and less, becasue every time i do all see is negativity. I have several friends who own FM08 and have never been to these forums, they all very much enjoy the game. Im not saying its perfect, that would be stupid, but for me it is a very accurate portrayal of management. If companies such as codemasters and EA cant make a competant managemnet sim then i say well done SI.

    *Let the flaming begin*


    This is one of the major reasons why most FM "defenders" should just shut up. NOTHING PERSONAL here but against this opinnion with big clubs being hard to play with there are ten opinnions which say that playing with the best teams is easy and that's why those people don't find anything to complain as they are breezing through the matches with Man Utd, Real Madrid etc.

    I only want to say that why can't these bug stuff etc. be left for SI to answer? What someone sees as a defect, some other won't notice or may like it better that way. Again, nothing against this particular poster here but this shows just how differently people realize and think about things. That makes it impossible to discuss anything here properly because most lack respect for others and can't see what others are thinking.

  51. #851
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Ackter:

    FM has pretty much always been about creating a self-sustaining football world that a human user can take part in. Get the AI numbers right is incredibly important.

    The other important thing, which is not at acceptable levels yet imo, is the feedback that the user is given by the AI world. We need to know how the world of football works - FM may not work exactly like the real world, but it's the FM world we need to understand. The game should be giving us a lot more information.

    For example, take Fred here. If he could click a button called "tactical analyser" and then be given a few hints and tips about what might be going wrong, and what might be going right, he'd then be in a much better position to get his tactics working as he wants them to.


    Spot on!

    The point, for those that seem to have missed it, is that in an AI vs AI game, both teams "play" the game on a level footing, ie, they use the game's built in tactics, tweaked and honed over years of refining the game's data and code.

    Humans come along, thinks he can do better, puts his tactics together on the space of minutes/hours, buys a bunch of stars to play them (whether it suits their style of play or not) and when some are not successful quickly enough, they blame the game, rather than reviewing their own tactics.

    No I don't have stats, and I find them boring even WHEN they can prove a bug exists because of the following reason.

    The first version of the game I played was CM 4. With that version, and EVERY version since I have never once, been unable to find a way to adapt tactically, to the point where I can consistently have winning seasons. How long does it take to get on top of a new version of the game? Usually take me several months of starting games, adjusting tactics, interpreting results, refining, replacing, re-working. Basically the sort of thing a real manager does when given enough time at a club (sorry Sam, that was meant as a cheap shot at the geordies).

    Yes, I'm a mad fool who howls in frustration at Jermain Defoe when he backpasses to his own keeper from the opposition six yard line and an open goal behind him. Yes, I abuse players and referees alike at the number of a opponents who score their first goal of the year against MY teams.

    BUT!!. Every single season, I stick at it, tweaking, refining, rebuilding until I beat this damn game, just so I can sit back and DARE SI to make a game I can't whip!

    So have some patience, display some real discipline, get your heads down and WORK at beating the game. Don't wait for the game to lie down for you, don't edit the data, find your own way to beat the game. It CAN be done.

  52. #852
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    i don't see how the above post has any relevance to what the thread is about - that the game engine is deeply flawed when it comes to shots on target, particularly one on ones.

    i've seen opposition sides destroy me completely and draw 0-0 because they've missed ten one on ones. what am i supposed to do, tell the ai to work on their tactics?

    i want a game where i'll win more often than not if i outplay the other side, and lose more often than not if they outplay me. i want talented, clinical strikers to score goals, both for and against me, without needing six chances to do it

    i don't want it to turn into a game with 15 shots on target each, where the winner is the side who can stick in the most rebounds

  53. #853
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    quote:
    Originally posted by LillyWhiteBoy:
    The point, for those that seem to have missed it, is that in an AI vs AI game, both teams "play" the game on a level footing, ie, they use the game's built in tactics, tweaked and honed over years of refining the game's data and code.

    Humans come along, thinks he can do better, puts his tactics together on the space of minutes/hours, buys a bunch of stars to play them (whether it suits their style of play or not) and when some are not successful quickly enough, they blame the game, rather than reviewing their own tactics.

    So have some patience, display some real discipline, get your heads down and WORK at beating the game. Don't wait for the game to lie down for you, don't edit the data, find your own way to beat the game. It CAN be done.


    That's as ridiculous as to claim that a car with its pedals swapped and inverted steering should be drivable and logical...

    AI is stupid and FM is unreasonable with doing what it likes like nerfing too good players, as was told even by SI. FM is beatable surely if you use glitches and disabilities of it to take advantage. Too often it has nothing to do with football itself.

    Humans come along, think they can drive a car, sit on it and prepare to drive as they should. After few dozens or hundred meters they stall the car or crash to something or drive off the road. Then they blame the car because it doesn't work like a car should. Of course, to make it they should review their own actions, but who really thinks they should?

    This is a bad example because it would be still logical and easily figurable that those controls are only inverted. You'd still know what to do if you wanted something, there is logic to it, it's only hard as you have used to do differently. FM isn't that simple because it has no opposite stuff to do, many things are completely out of their and everybody else's minds. You are left without a clue because AI does what it wants and you don't know how to influence it, if you even have the possibility.

  54. #854
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    I've never experienced a problem that would warrant me to believe there is a bug, or the game is fixed, or what ever.

    However I am not saying you're wrong, or trying to attack anyone who expressed such views: the wonderful thing about open forum is everyone is entitled to an opinion based on experienced.

    Consequently, I don't think there can be a major flaw in the game if there are a good number of people who are scratching heads at this topic and wondering what brought it all about.

    This game is the most difficult (read: realistic) installment to date, and does take more thinking and fine tuned adjustments to tactics. It's not longer a case of developing one super tactic to rule them all. I noticed, when I first started playing this game, that it is a much more difficult and challenging game to master. It took me a few weeks to get my head round things, but I think I can say - touch wood - I'm finally starting to get the hang of it.

    I personally don't see there being any major flaw that makes the game unplayable. That is not to say those who do are wrong - I'm not here to debate right or wrong. I'm merely providing my own humble opinion, what ever that may be.

    I do not mean in any way to sound belittling, but in my view, it is merely people are not yet acclimatised to the need for greater fine tuning. Perhaps some of the people expect a one-tactic wonder that will steamroll all opposition. I admit, this would be fun in as much as you would win, but would it be as much fun as thinking about the tactics, changing them to adapt, and overcoming a smarter AI, to lead a team to glory?

    Just for the record, I am Boston Utd, and while they are expected to run away with the title on this game, I have had previous games prior to this where I struggled and was mid-table. However, as stated previously, I sat down and thought about everything, read the tactic bibles posted here, and seem to be making a much better fist of it.

    I hope those experiencing problems leading them to believe it is a serious flaw with the game can also eventually overcome obstacles and enjoy the game themselves.

  55. #855
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    I'm wondering if any of those people who don't think there is a problem can explain why SI end up tweaking the match engine (as a direct result of comments made on this forum), if there is nothing wrong with the game in the first place?

    Paul has already said there is going to be an updated patch which will include an updated match engine...

    quote:
    Originally posted by PaulC:Yes we have been looking into it, and other issues flagged on these forums. The plan is for there to be an update including an updated match engine sometime after the next transfer window closes


    ...why this updated match engine if there's nothing wrong with the game?? You should be thanking these guys who flag up the problems, because without them, they wouldn't get spotted and eventually fixed.

    All games have 1 or 2 bugs when they are first released and we all know the boxed version of FM is going to be 'buggy' which is fair enough. It's to what degree the 'bugs' affect the gameplay which angers most I think.

    This thread is more than a month old now, yet the new patch won't be out until Feb. I feel sorry for all those who are experiencing this problem and who shelled out the full price for the game back in November. After the 07 fiasco, I'm sticking to my guns and waiting for the final patch to be released before stepping into the 08 game. I don't know about anyone else but I find games hard to get into, if I know there are underlying problems which will, eventually, adversely affect the gameplay.

  56. #856
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    andygregory,

    Perhaps the match engine does need tuning - I challenge someone to find an area that doesn't - but I have never encountered anything to suggest it is deeply flawed and bugged, as many people seem to suggest.

    There is a difference between tweaking something, and ripping the whole thing out.

  57. #857
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    have to say that Beta patch >>>>>> full patch for me.

    I initially loaded up the full patch and got no enjoyment out of seeing so many chances missed per game. the results were ultimately accurate i suppose but it just wasn't fun.

    so i heard the beta doesn't have this problem as much (though does have a few others) so i gave it a go, and honestly, i find it much improved. shots to goals ratio for both me and my opponents are good, realistic scores, and despite a problem with certain player's morale (Tuncay scores 7 in 3 games but is feeling very low ) it's made the game highly enjoyable again

  58. #858
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    I think it is absolutely fine if FM08 is the most difficult to date or the like.

    I believe many of the people here are not complain about the difficulty of the game, but the so called "Tuned match engine to reflect realistic scoring rate/stats"

    With this "tuned" match engine, no matter what u do with your tactic, players, subsititions or whatever, the match result is pre-determined in order to reflect a realistic goal rate in "100 games"

    This sounds very horrible isnt? And SI has yet to deny with that in this hot thread which convince many of us that "tuned engine" does exist.

  59. #859
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    quote:
    Originally posted by PaulC:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mitja:
    quote:
    Originally posted by PaulC:
    No sorry I cant see how on earth you conclude that "the game is cheating"!


    I'm sorry Paul maybe it is hard word to say...

    but we would have scores like 15-3, or 10-0 then, what I want to say the game just prevents those scores, which is good in my opinoum...but....


    Cheating is totally the wrong word for that. The game doesnt "prevent" any score, but we tune each part of the match engine so that over 100s of games, the average no of goals/shots on target etc is close to real life.

    I think when talking about these issues the key is "quality of chance". I think if there is re-balancing to be done going forward then it starts with that.


    This is the reply from Paul C in page 9 of this thread and which is the assumption of "tuned match engine" come from.

  60. #860
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    Seems to me that the problem lies with the players lack of intelligence as to when to shoot. They seem to take shots when there is an opponent right in their face. the ammount of times I've read "X throws himself in front of ball" is ridiculous. I've seen the same with crosses and passes. The players just kick it right at the opponent, frequently. Could this have something to do with the shots to goal ratio that people are experiencing?

  61. #861
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    pathetic to see that some just deny that there is a problem here. I win most of the games but to see my strikers miss so many one on ones with lousy keepers make me sick. it's okay if they miss 1,2 even 3 but when they miss 5-6 then it's not right.

  62. #862
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Rickooko:
    I think it is absolutely fine if FM08 is the most difficult to date or the like.

    I believe many of the people here are not complain about the difficulty of the game, but the so called "Tuned match engine to reflect realistic scoring rate/stats"

    With this "tuned" match engine, no matter what u do with your tactic, players, subsititions or whatever, the match result is pre-determined in order to reflect a realistic goal rate in "100 games"

    This sounds very horrible isnt? And SI has yet to deny with that in this hot thread which convince many of us that "tuned engine" does exist.


    Not quite right, your input will affect the result of the match, and of course the ME is tuned, how else could it work?

    What it isn't tuned to do is control the scoreline in each match separately.
    As Paul has said, all the settings in the ME produce a reaslistic goal count per match over hundreds of matches.
    It's obvious that you can get the required goals per game average with the actual football being slightly nonsensical, which appears to be the case here.
    It follows that they need to adjust the ME so that while in match stats are more realistic the goal count remains similar.

    Just to reiterate, the ME doesn't control the number of goals scored, it produces the number of goals based on it's many complex settings.

  63. #863
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    quote:
    Originally posted by ajcardall:
    andygregory,

    Perhaps the match engine does need tuning - I challenge someone to find an area that doesn't - but I have never encountered anything to suggest it is deeply flawed and bugged, as many people seem to suggest.

    There is a difference between tweaking something, and ripping the whole thing out.


    so you've never come across the opposition goalkeeper getting MoM game after game after game?

    The general feeling in this thread is that the ME needs fixing to stop a problem, which I feel would ruin the game if I bought and played it right now. The same happened with 06, I learnt my lesson with 07 and am sticking to waiting for a final patch with 08.

    07 is quite enjoyable to play, but we had to wait 4 months after it was released to have it that way. The same happened for 06 and is now happening with 08..... and will more than likely happen with 09.

    I understand that the ME is a very complex bit of kit and I have a lot of respect for SI for developing it. I just think a bit more beta testing should be done before releasing it these days. With more and more additions to the game, they seem to be adding more and more complexity to the ME and therefore more opportunities for it to go wrong. Small 'bugs' are fine, we can live with those, however the constructive criticism in this thread has not given me the green light just yet.

  64. #864
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    quote:
    Originally posted by LillyWhiteBoy:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Ackter:

    FM has pretty much always been about creating a self-sustaining football world that a human user can take part in. Get the AI numbers right is incredibly important.

    The other important thing, which is not at acceptable levels yet imo, is the feedback that the user is given by the AI world. We need to know how the world of football works - FM may not work exactly like the real world, but it's the FM world we need to understand. The game should be giving us a lot more information.

    For example, take Fred here. If he could click a button called "tactical analyser" and then be given a few hints and tips about what might be going wrong, and what might be going right, he'd then be in a much better position to get his tactics working as he wants them to.


    Spot on!

    The point, for those that seem to have missed it, is that in an AI vs AI game, both teams "play" the game on a level footing, ie, they use the game's built in tactics, tweaked and honed over years of refining the game's data and code.

    Humans come along, thinks he can do better, puts his tactics together on the space of minutes/hours, buys a bunch of stars to play them (whether it suits their style of play or not) and when some are not successful quickly enough, they blame the game, rather than reviewing their own tactics.

    No I don't have stats, and I find them boring even WHEN they can prove a bug exists because of the following reason.

    The first version of the game I played was CM 4. With that version, and EVERY version since I have never once, been unable to find a way to adapt tactically, to the point where I can consistently have winning seasons. How long does it take to get on top of a new version of the game? Usually take me several months of starting games, adjusting tactics, interpreting results, refining, replacing, re-working. Basically the sort of thing a real manager does when given enough time at a club (sorry Sam, that was meant as a cheap shot at the geordies).

    Yes, I'm a mad fool who howls in frustration at Jermain Defoe when he backpasses to his own keeper from the opposition six yard line and an open goal behind him. Yes, I abuse players and referees alike at the number of a opponents who score their first goal of the year against MY teams.

    BUT!!. Every single season, I stick at it, tweaking, refining, rebuilding until I beat this damn game, just so I can sit back and DARE SI to make a game I can't whip!

    So have some patience, display some real discipline, get your heads down and WORK at beating the game. Don't wait for the game to lie down for you, don't edit the data, find your own way to beat the game. It CAN be done.


    The thing is although I have no doubt at all that the one v one issue can be tactically worked around, and is also down to certain tactics (in this players case its any tactic that has through balls on often and a single striker).

    But what your failing to see is that by watching the game we are seeing our tactics working as we create shedloads of clearcut one v one situations.

    Ive conceded 8 goals in 30 League 1 games this season, but am 8th because my start (especially at this level these stats are good imo) striker with 16 finishing, 14 composure, 13 pace and 17 anticipation cant score from one v ones.

    This issue is nothing to do with SI producing a challenging match engine or AI- its all about it being flawed in a pretty big way.

    I dont want to have to create tactics that work around flaws in the engine or beat the game. Why? Beating the game is easy, its easy to exploit flaws in the match engine and always has been- in the latest I could just allow the AI to run at my keeper knowing they wont score, and also play a high line (regardless of the speed of my defenders) with wingers crossing for fun (because defending is so awful) and a lone striker scoring also for fun.

    Thats how you currently have to beat the game- not by using our real world tactical ideas but by just finding a way to beat the flawed system.

    Its been like that for sometime in FM (certainly since FM07) and this player refuses to play this way in order to win, therefore I will keep moaning about the flaws until we can play the game properly, not just by having to work around flaws in the match engine.

  65. #865
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    quote:
    Originally posted by andygregory:
    quote:
    Originally posted by ajcardall:
    andygregory,

    Perhaps the match engine does need tuning - I challenge someone to find an area that doesn't - but I have never encountered anything to suggest it is deeply flawed and bugged, as many people seem to suggest.

    There is a difference between tweaking something, and ripping the whole thing out.


    so you've never come across the opposition goalkeeper getting MoM game after game after game?

    The general feeling in this thread is that the ME needs fixing to stop a problem, which I feel would ruin the game if I bought and played it right now. The same happened with 06, I learnt my lesson with 07 and am sticking to waiting for a final patch with 08.

    07 is quite enjoyable to play, but we had to wait 4 months after it was released to have it that way. The same happened for 06 and is now happening with 08..... and will more than likely happen with 09.

    I understand that the ME is a very complex bit of kit and I have a lot of respect for SI for developing it. I just think a bit more beta testing should be done before releasing it these days. With more and more additions to the game, they seem to be adding more and more complexity to the ME and therefore more opportunities for it to go wrong. Small 'bugs' are fine, we can live with those, however the constructive criticism in this thread has not given me the green light just yet.



    Much as they should acknowledge that just because they havent experienced these issues that it doesnt mean the issue doesnt exist, we also should realise that not everybody will have experienced this issue as it will depend on tactics employed.

  66. #866
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    It's unbelievable that this argument is still going on.

    I've said much earlier and I feel the need to say it again...most people are arguing about different things...

    The ME is tuned to create a 'balanced' match, otherwise, there might be cases where 8-9 red cards are dished out every match (like before...) or strong teams keep winning by 7 to 9 goals (which is entirely realistic if the leaders of the EPL is playing their full first team against the bottom team of league two...but in this game, the realistic score is still 2-0 and they call it a hammering )...

    But those who harp on tactics are not entirely correct either...this game is to simulate being a football manager, not football player...

    As a manager, my tactics should be to try to out-smart my opponent and find holes in his tactics and players' strengths...meaning, the point of the game is to CREATE a set of tactics that will put my high finishing players in shooting positions...after that, it is up to how good my high finishing players can do his job.

    Most people who are upset with the shot to goal ratio experience their 'world class' striker missing too many good chances...unrealistically!

    IRL, not many world class strikers will get too many chances to find the net (even Micky Owen sticks them in, and even when he wasn't in the game for the other 89 minutes...)...but if my tactics can put my world class strikers in scoring positions, then I think I have created a decent team tactics...
    If I have 20 shots on target, and half of that came from my CD and FB, then I would not be quite so p#@$ed...BUT, if 20 shots on target with 15 from my world class stikers, them who earn top dollars in the game, and has attributes (as given by the game, doesn't matter who filled those numbers in...) and stats (either from international matches or from their previous season...) and they only get one goal out of those 15 shots...then I think I am right to feel aggrieved...


    The game is then CHEATING me...it is showing me that I have bought poorly (based on the only way I can tell, which are attributes and stats...) over and over because someone who is scoring freely will miss from 6 yards week in and week out the second he joins my team...

    It is also cheating me because I have no idea how to 'talk' to my players correctly...yes I understand that players will not always do what I ask, but IRL, at least I know quite precisely what I have asked them to do...not so here...there is no feedback, no way to figure out if my players are doing things ( against my wishes...) are doing it because I have given them too many conflicting instructions or if they are just trying to diss me...given the restriction of money and time, I cannot change my whole team a few time in a season to see if it is those players who are stubborn, or if my tactics is confusing them...

    I am frustrated with this issue only because I care about tactics...I buy players who best fit my style of play and plan tactics to best utilise their strengths...yet...over and over, they show me that either they cannot do their jobs, or they are unwilling to follow my instructions, or they are not understanding what I am trying to tell them...

    I can't blame them (unlike IRL...) because I quite often am unsure what my instructions to them are...it's mainly click and hope...there is not enough information (becuase every match is different; opponents, grounds, weather, morale, stage of training etc) for me to work out what I'm doing right or wrong...

    There is NO learning curve in this game...we might get it right for a while thinking we have sussed it...then suddenly, it all goes pear shape and we are left on the side lines unable to make amends...helpless and angry (if not with the players then it has to be with SI..)...

    Making the game more realistic is all well and good, and the game should not be too easy...however...and this is a huge however...this is a game...entertainment..I am not getting paid to tweak those sliders and test the ME for SI...either give me some joy or let me in on what affects what and which does which...and for the love of god, either make those with finishing and composure 20; score at least 50% of one on ones, or reduce their numbers to something realistic (like 5 and 5?)

    One point SI conceded somewhat, is that the ME is tweaked to reflect realistic scores...fair enough...but why not tweak it such that defenders (maybe even midfielders...) make better tackles and blocks instead of letting it get to those dreaded one on ones??

    How many defenders in FM08 gets MOM??? In my team, only 2...in over 85 matches...both belong to my CD who scored from set pieces...while AI GK gets far too many MOMs...

    SI has to come out and detail what they are going to do about this...I've been asking for a proper manual since we lost the with ball/without ball screens...and I'm still waiting...

    So far...15 pages in, they are still no closer to coming out with a solution...methinks they are going to work on FM09 and hope many of us, who are trying to play the game as it should be played, would just go away...

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    Good post Wizard. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say.

    And regarding FM09, fixing it for FM08 does fix it for FM09- I'll be surprised (actually shocked) if it isnt fixed, especially considering they have said the patch is due in around a months time.

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    Great Post Wizard.

    I totally agree with you. I'm still waiting for a serius reply by SI and I ask to myself why they need two months to release a patch to fix this problem when the second beta was not affected by...

    Why they dont release a new beta for "managers" who spent their money 3 months ago??

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    quote:
    One point SI conceded somewhat, is that the ME is tweaked to reflect realistic scores...fair enough...but why not tweak it such that defenders (maybe even midfielders...) make better tackles and blocks instead of letting it get to those dreaded one on ones??


    Exactly what Paul C has said will be done, unfortunately it takes a huge chunk of time to make the changes and then test until both the overall goal tally and the actual football leading to it are seen to be right.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Kriss:
    quote:
    One point SI conceded somewhat, is that the ME is tweaked to reflect realistic scores...fair enough...but why not tweak it such that defenders (maybe even midfielders...) make better tackles and blocks instead of letting it get to those dreaded one on ones??


    Exactly what Paul C has said will be done, unfortunately it takes a huge chunk of time to make the changes and then test until both the overall goal tally and the actual football leading to it are seen to be right.


    I understand that mate...but how about SI updating us every other page of this thread?

    Nah mate...I'm still praying for that manual...Santa missed my area last week ...well, hope springs eternal...

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    There isn't anything to update in regard to the ME, tweak and test goes on until the required optimum is reached.
    There isn't any stage other than in progress until it's deemed ready.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    And regarding FM09, fixing it for FM08 does fix it for FM09- I'll be surprised (actually shocked) if it isnt fixed, especially considering they have said the patch is due in around a months time.


    Well, how many bugs are actually being fixed in previous versions without new ones coming out every time which keep bothering players? Next time there will be many other issues which will keep pestering people.

    While it is good that FM gets updated and SI are trying to learn from previous versions, I find it lucicrous that every new FM is just an update of the earlier version. FM 2007 and FM 2008 are different games, so why is FM 2008 patch called 8.x.x.? Where is FM 2008 version 1? SI are only offering us just an update of the game with each version a little honed from previous, but with older bugs and new ones. We are just getting new database and skins. What's more amusing is that people are actually paying for each "test" version. I'll buy the game next time 2030 when FM 2005 has become a bug free and great FM 2030.

    The point is that there will be no fixing of FM 2008. After the next patch (which is directly contributing to FM 09 I guess) there will be no patches for FM 08 and people are left with a buggy game which they have bought and paid for. If you want a more fixed FM 08, you'll have to get your hands on FM 09 or something. Wonder then why people don't buy their FM 08 again but download it for free .

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    Ok. Just finished the 1st full season with this official 8.0.1 patch and this is absolutely nightmare!

    Prime example from the season... Champions League Semi againts Real Madrid. I had 63 shots (39 on target... and NO these were not from midfield shots...) ...Real Madrid had 16 shots in total and ended up winning 4-1 and reached the final.

    I didn't even count how many times opposing goalkeeper was awarded man of the match award.

    This "official" patch is complete rubbish. I don't know what BETA release I was playing but it was far better than this nonsense.

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    I too have at least double the shots on goal then my opposition in virtually every game. The problem is the one-on-ones. I always played with alot of through balls, but in FM08 its litteraly impossible to score one-on-one with the keeper. If the keeper has 15+ in reflexes he will always save them, doesnt matter if you use Aguero, Henry, Villa or whoever. I probably have an average of 5 one-on-ones per game, so thats how the shot on goal go up so much. I have seen some ridicolus situations where the keeper can make 5 string super saves going from one post to the other in milliseconds.


    In fm08 a one-on-one with the GK isnt even a chance. You gotta use wingers, get them to cross from byline, then its a bigger chance of scoring.

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    If all one-on-ones were goals then most people would be winning 12-0 every match. Then people would start complaining that the game is too easy

    The real problem is that the defense is seriously flawed in the game. It can be beaten very easily. A long ball comes to a striker, defenders go away from the goal and the striker has a one-on-one chance. Or they simply do nothing. This is why there are too many shots and why SI had to reduce the goals scored from them.

    I presume fixing the defense would have taken too long and they had to release something as soon as possible (i'm talking about 8.0.1 patch here). So they reduced the amount of goals.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Rickooko:
    With this "tuned" match engine, no matter what u do with your tactic, players, subsititions or whatever, the match result is pre-determined in order to reflect a realistic goal rate in "100 games"


    That's a complete misunderstanding of what I said.

    The match results are not pre-determined.

    And we have no artificial limits on any scoreline.

    All we have done is tune things so that the stats over 100's of game match up as close as possible to the stats we have for real life football.

    As said elsewhere, there will be a match engine update after the transfer window. All constructive feedback we recieved on these and other forums has been very helpful in making the improvements within that update.

    Cheers,
    Paul

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    quote:
    Originally posted by PaulC:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Rickooko:
    With this "tuned" match engine, no matter what u do with your tactic, players, subsititions or whatever, the match result is pre-determined in order to reflect a realistic goal rate in "100 games"


    That's a complete misunderstanding of what I said.

    The match results are not pre-determined.

    And we have no artificial limits on any scoreline.

    All we have done is tune things so that the stats over 100's of game match up as close as possible to the stats we have for real life football.

    As said elsewhere, there will be a match engine update after the transfer window. All constructive feedback we recieved on these and other forums has been very helpful in making the improvements within that update.

    Cheers,
    Paul


    Thx a lot for your reply and i am glad you say that the match result is no pre-determined.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by PaulC:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Rickooko:
    With this "tuned" match engine, no matter what u do with your tactic, players, subsititions or whatever, the match result is pre-determined in order to reflect a realistic goal rate in "100 games"


    That's a complete misunderstanding of what I said.

    The match results are not pre-determined.

    And we have no artificial limits on any scoreline.

    All we have done is tune things so that the stats over 100's of game match up as close as possible to the stats we have for real life football.

    As said elsewhere, there will be a match engine update after the transfer window. All constructive feedback we recieved on these and other forums has been very helpful in making the improvements within that update.

    Cheers,
    Paul


    Paul what are we expeted to see in this update? An improvment in the shots to goal ratio? what other fixes are in development?

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Jopo12:
    quote:
    Originally posted by George Graham:
    And regarding FM09, fixing it for FM08 does fix it for FM09- I'll be surprised (actually shocked) if it isnt fixed, especially considering they have said the patch is due in around a months time.


    Well, how many bugs are actually being fixed in previous versions without new ones coming out every time which keep bothering players? Next time there will be many other issues which will keep pestering people.

    While it is good that FM gets updated and SI are trying to learn from previous versions, I find it lucicrous that every new FM is just an update of the earlier version. FM 2007 and FM 2008 are different games, so why is FM 2008 patch called 8.x.x.? Where is FM 2008 version 1? SI are only offering us just an update of the game with each version a little honed from previous, but with older bugs and new ones. We are just getting new database and skins. What's more amusing is that people are actually paying for each "test" version. I'll buy the game next time 2030 when FM 2005 has become a bug free and great FM 2030.

    The point is that there will be no fixing of FM 2008. After the next patch (which is directly contributing to FM 09 I guess) there will be no patches for FM 08 and people are left with a buggy game which they have bought and paid for. If you want a more fixed FM 08, you'll have to get your hands on FM 09 or something. Wonder then why people don't buy their FM 08 again but download it for free .


    I absolutely agree with all of this.

    But IMO it would be madness for SI to leave certain areas as is- as imo its got to the point where people will start walking away for the very same reasons you state.

    This series is getting very stale indeed.

  80. #880
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    quote:
    Originally posted by LillyWhiteBoy:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Ackter:

    FM has pretty much always been about creating a self-sustaining football world that a human user can take part in. Get the AI numbers right is incredibly important.

    The other important thing, which is not at acceptable levels yet imo, is the feedback that the user is given by the AI world. We need to know how the world of football works - FM may not work exactly like the real world, but it's the FM world we need to understand. The game should be giving us a lot more information.

    For example, take Fred here. If he could click a button called "tactical analyser" and then be given a few hints and tips about what might be going wrong, and what might be going right, he'd then be in a much better position to get his tactics working as he wants them to.


    Spot on!

    The point, for those that seem to have missed it, is that in an AI vs AI game, both teams "play" the game on a level footing, ie, they use the game's built in tactics, tweaked and honed over years of refining the game's data and code.

    Humans come along, thinks he can do better, puts his tactics together on the space of minutes/hours, buys a bunch of stars to play them (whether it suits their style of play or not) and when some are not successful quickly enough, they blame the game, rather than reviewing their own tactics.

    No I don't have stats, and I find them boring even WHEN they can prove a bug exists because of the following reason.

    The first version of the game I played was CM 4. With that version, and EVERY version since I have never once, been unable to find a way to adapt tactically, to the point where I can consistently have winning seasons. How long does it take to get on top of a new version of the game? Usually take me several months of starting games, adjusting tactics, interpreting results, refining, replacing, re-working. Basically the sort of thing a real manager does when given enough time at a club (sorry Sam, that was meant as a cheap shot at the geordies).

    Yes, I'm a mad fool who howls in frustration at Jermain Defoe when he backpasses to his own keeper from the opposition six yard line and an open goal behind him. Yes, I abuse players and referees alike at the number of a opponents who score their first goal of the year against MY teams.

    BUT!!. Every single season, I stick at it, tweaking, refining, rebuilding until I beat this damn game, just so I can sit back and DARE SI to make a game I can't whip!

    So have some patience, display some real discipline, get your heads down and WORK at beating the game. Don't wait for the game to lie down for you, don't edit the data, find your own way to beat the game. It CAN be done.


    1. Some people are busy and don't have hours and hours to edit tactics every day. It is our job to do minor changes (ex. man marking if necessary, deep defending if it's a fast team, etc.) but most people aren't tactical experts and change the whole thing every 2 games.

    2. Most people are complaining about results over time not just after 10 games, but after 2-3 seasons of dealing with the same BS. Some people don't mind losing, but after 3 seasons even the calmest of people will explode with anger at the bugs.

  81. #881
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    stop playing this game, too many shots (sometimes one every 2 or 3 minutes) just add the miss ratio for one-to-one situation and you're really bored about this game.

    I took a look at the italian Serie A statistics, Roma, Inter, Milan generally have a total of 6/15 shots per match.
    Great players have max 2 or 3 big occasions during the match and they generally don't miss a second chance.

    I give up

  82. #882
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    quote:
    Originally posted by laska98:
    stop playing this game, too many shots (sometimes one every 2 or 3 minutes) just add the miss ratio for one-to-one situation and you're really bored about this game.


    i got a better example, champs league game, 7th season, my last game had 64 shots, 43 shots on target,3 goals. this would make 1 shot every 80 seconds i think . this is an averall stats of my team and the opposite team. very realistic...

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    quote:
    Originally posted by DeathSpawn:
    quote:
    Originally posted by laska98:
    stop playing this game, too many shots (sometimes one every 2 or 3 minutes) just add the miss ratio for one-to-one situation and you're really bored about this game.


    i got a better example, champs league game, 7th season, my last game had 64 shots, 43 shots on target,3 goals. this would make 1 shot every 80 seconds i think . this is an averall stats of my team and the opposite team. very realistic...

    there was also 26 throw ins, 25 fouls, 9 offsides how on earth could the players have time to do all this??? were they moving at speed of light???

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    quote:
    Originally posted by PaulC:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Rickooko:
    With this "tuned" match engine, no matter what u do with your tactic, players, subsititions or whatever, the match result is pre-determined in order to reflect a realistic goal rate in "100 games"


    That's a complete misunderstanding of what I said.

    The match results are not pre-determined.

    And we have no artificial limits on any scoreline.

    All we have done is tune things so that the stats over 100's of game match up as close as possible to the stats we have for real life football.

    As said elsewhere, there will be a match engine update after the transfer window. All constructive feedback we recieved on these and other forums has been very helpful in making the improvements within that update.

    Cheers,
    Paul


    I'm confused about this
    All we have done is tune things so that the stats over 100's of game match up as close as possible to the stats we have for real life football.

    As i understand it to give a extreme example: if i score 5 goals/game over 50 games will this then mean that over the next 50 i will not score at all so my goal/game average gets tuned down to a acceptable 2,5-2,7??????
    Is this how it is?
    In previous versions i have always been able to get a average of 2,9 goals per game as i play super attacking with WC players.
    Don't care about how many the opposition score against me i just want to score boat loads of goals. Might not be realistic to play that way but the "fun" factor about the game has been the balance of realism to "escape from realism".

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    quote:
    As i understand it to give a extreme example: if i score 5 goals/game over 50 games will this then mean that over the next 50 i will not score at all so my goal/game average gets tuned down to a acceptable 2,5-2,7??????


    No, that;s not how it is.

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    Then what does he mean by that comment?

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    quote:
    originally posted by nymanr:-

    I'm confused about this
    All we have done is tune things so that the stats over 100's of game match up as close as possible to the stats we have for real life football.

    As i understand it to give a extreme example: if i score 5 goals/game over 50 games will this then mean that over the next 50 i will not score at all so my goal/game average gets tuned down to a acceptable 2,5-2,7??????
    Is this how it is?


    As a disclaimer it's been a long time since I studied programming in college and never really used it in my working life. But what I assume PaulC means by tuning is the following:-

    The match engine is basically a giant calculator that takes in all of the variables (player attributes, morale, happiness, player condition, tactical settings plus a little bit of randomness thrown in) and outputs a result in an attempt to simulate real life football.

    Let's say we start out with Version 1 of the match engine. Run a certain number of test matches that are statistically significant so as to produce reliable results (not reliable in the sense that thay are accurate with respect to real life but that they can be used as a measure of what the user can expect to happen).

    After this Version 1 test the statistics are out of skew with respect to what they are trying to simulate i.e. real life football. So they go back to the match engine and make some changes to the calculation (what PaulC refers to as tuning). This is now Version 2 of the match engine.

    Run the same number of tests with Version 2 and again compare what results you get to the results you want. If these don't match up again, then return to the match engine and change some other elements of the calculation to produce Version 3.

    Now run tests on Version 3 as with Versions 1 and 2. And on and on until a version of the match engine is reached that produces the desired results.

    That is essentially what 'tuning' is.

    What you are referring to would mean that the match engine 'auto corrects' itself so that the results a human user produces do not deviate significantly from what could be realistically expected. I might be naive but I doubt SI would do that (or would they ).

    PS Apologies to PaulC if I am wrong about what he means by tuning.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by nymanr:
    Then what does he mean by that comment?


    How effective each attribute is, how effective morale is, how effective luck is etc - it's all tuned so that, on average, the match engine gives realistic statistics over many hundereds of matches.

    This is tested AIvAI as it's a hell of alot quicker.

    There's nothing that works like "youve scored 50 so you can't score anymore". It's all about tuning how much influence each attribute has on the result of a match.

    Does that make sense?

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    Well i always thought it was done as isuckatfm and Ackter explained it.
    But when you read PaulC's statement on it he does not give any explanation on how it is.
    (can read the statement in different ways)
    Just wanted to have some clarification on it so i wouldn't have to worry about the horror scenario of it being the way i read his statement.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by Ackter:
    quote:
    Originally posted by nymanr:
    Then what does he mean by that comment?


    How effective each attribute is, how effective morale is, how effective luck is etc - it's all tuned so that, on average, the match engine gives realistic statistics over many hundereds of matches.

    This is tested AIvAI as it's a hell of alot quicker.

    There's nothing that works like "youve scored 50 so you can't score anymore". It's all about tuning how much influence each attribute has on the result of a match.

    Does that make sense?


    Ofcourse attributes do matter.

    ...but if nymanr is "correct" with his assumptions and he just might be than it would explain quite a few things.

    * "The Super AI goalies". Even if PaulC said that matches are not predetermined than someway they must be. Since this 1:1 miss bug is added to keep the score levels down. By thus meaning that there are limits etc on the scores meaning that nymanr is "correct".

    * AI picking up on your tactics theory. I can read post after post how tactic stopped working. I have read enough of these threads but commonly it seemed to have worked 15-20 games than slump... hard to score etc etc. nymanrs conclusions would explain this too.

    * Would also explain why there are "diablo" tactics. Personally I doubt the Match Engine intelligence hasn't improved that much from those days.

    Just few thoughts.

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    quote:
    Originally posted by PaulC:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Rickooko:
    With this "tuned" match engine, no matter what u do with your tactic, players, subsititions or whatever, the match result is pre-determined in order to reflect a realistic goal rate in "100 games"


    That's a complete misunderstanding of what I said.

    The match results are not pre-determined.

    And we have no artificial limits on any scoreline.

    All we have done is tune things so that the stats over 100's of game match up as close as possible to the stats we have for real life football.

    As said elsewhere, there will be a match engine update after the transfer window. All constructive feedback we recieved on these and other forums has been very helpful in making the improvements within that update.

    Cheers,
    Paul


    As I understand it, there is a built in non-linear mechanism in the goals/Shots on target ratio. So if team A creates 15 shots on target that are, as represented by the 2d display, of equal quality to 3 shots on target team B creates, the chance of team A converting individual chances from their 15 shots is lower than the conversion rate of team B, and this is called 'tuning' to create realistic scores? This effect is compounded by the loss of confidence by team A's strikers when they continually miss their chances to the point where the likely score in such a scenario, all else being equal, is 1-1. This is realistic because 1-1 is a realistic score in football... but at the same time it's 'unfair' and frustrating for the user.

    I'm glad to know that your guys are correcting the issue. The important thing to remember is that 'realism' is ultimately limited by the parameters of the computer game. There are two types of realism, and IMO for a game like FM, achieving realism of the process is far more important than achieving realism in the outcome. This is because the process is directly linked to the way users play the game and it is the lack thereof that frustrates users - the customers. Taking shortcuts in representing the process in which outcomes are reached, such as through the use of the 4-2-4, the constant AI tweaking of tactics that users physically cannot achieve (this actually amounts to AI 'cheating', IMO), 'tuning' of the SOT/goals ratio to achieve realistic scores etc frustrate the user, and only produces cosmetic realism.

    I hope the patch will rectify these issues, and that SI will reassess their yardstick on what makes a good game.

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    quote:
    The important thing to remember is that 'realism' is ultimately limited by the parameters of the computer game


    I think this concept is related to another word "customer".

    Consider a match with a realistic number of opportunities/shots/1:1, probably viewing the match in full mode could be
    somehow boring. But if you attempt to play with "realism" in mind probably you're quite happy.

    But there're a lot of people looking for killing tactics or super teams to demolish "enemy defence" with a thousands shots
    on first half. And for someone this could be funny too.

    The actual match engine could be a mix of this concepts, realistic results with fun on the field.

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    quote:
    There are two types of realism, and IMO for a game like FM, achieving realism of the process is far more important than achieving realism in the outcome.


    I agree completely. Unfortunately SI relies on AI-vs-AI testing. While this might validate realistic outcomes its give no insight into the process. You can't help but wonder if 1000 AI-vs-AI games ended 1-1, but all the goal were own goals, whether SI would notice.

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    You'd think then, that the way forward would be to use AI tactics - sadly i've tried this for ages and they don't work at all well.

    I made good progress with the 1st beta patch, getting into 2013 with Blyth Spartans in the Championship - but i was so off put by the ridiculous scores - there was never a 0-0 in my games or ai vs ai games - lots of 4-1's, 3-0's, 3-3's etc. So i upgraded to the official patch for 2 seasons, and that was even worse. Now the scores are official but even if i play with a defensive formation i still end up having 25 shots on target and them all being straight at the keeper

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    In my experience the patched Match Engine leaves a little to be desired. I don't find scoring goals is a problem. I scored over 100 in a single season with Millwall in Div. 1. This was without cheating or editing.


    The two problems I have identified based on several games in different leagues.

    1) It's not worth lashing out on better strikers because the expensive ones will miss almost as many chances. This leads to a decrease in realism.

    2) You don't need to bother with an expensive goalie as AI strikers are bound to miss the target more often than not.

    The way to succeed is to play boring set-piece based football and use wingers who can deliver the ball at pace from the byline.

    Trying to unleash a striker behind the defence is usually a waste of time.

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    1. FYI - tempo affects quality of realization of 1on1's, if you fail to realize it - try and test more, watch full matches with that setting on max and on min.
    To clear things - you can rush your one on one chance by quick shot, or you can round keeper 7 times, wait 4 defenders, round them all, then round keeper again and finally score with heel kick.
    Thats rough difference between fast and slow tempo applied to once on ones. And yes, it's works that way.

    2. IRL realization of one-on-ones not better than 30%, honestly. That guy that named anything less than 80% stupid - should watch more football.

    3. With proper tactics you have no problems with realization of shots. Quick tip: find a way to base your game around short crosses inside box. It's most potent chances with current match engine (actually, real life aswell)
    I, personally, have 2 tactics exploiting it, while overall approach and formations differs

    I don't want this game become easier, because it's easy as is. I am terribly bored to win EPL and Ch.Cup 5 times in a row.

  97. #897
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    Join Date
    31st May 2007
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    150

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    quote:
    Originally posted by gogis:
    1. FYI - tempo affects quality of realization of 1on1's, if you fail to realize it - try and test more, watch full matches with that setting on max and on min.

    gogis may have a point here, as I progress up the leagues and bring down my tempo to match the better quality passing I expect from my players I'm scoring a lot more 1 on 1's.

  98. #898
    Amateur
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    27th December 2007
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    5

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    quote:
    Originally posted by soundian:
    quote:
    Originally posted by gogis:
    1. FYI - tempo affects quality of realization of 1on1's, if you fail to realize it - try and test more, watch full matches with that setting on max and on min.

    gogis may have a point here, as I progress up the leagues and bring down my tempo to match the better quality passing I expect from my players I'm scoring a lot more 1 on 1's.


    It's easily to procreate.

    I simply went thru ~30 matches vs same opponent (Arsenal, 2nd best after me in EPL) and played straight half matches with very quick tempo and then with slow.

    Observations so far:
    1. At slow tempo players DO NOT slow game intentionally, if they have good offer - they pass. Slowing game down by passing alot back and force related to TIME WASTING.
    Slow tempo is by no means slowing game. It's just way more rationale.

    2. Quick tempo - leads to alot of quick passes, with raised amount of passes overboard, it's way safer to be caught by pressure, but you increase chances being intercepted.

    3. Quick tempo - players make alot of quick shots, (HENCE, PLAING QUICK, funny, yes?)INCLUDING ONE-ON-ONE SITUATIONS. YES IT IS, IT AFFECTS.

    And final conclusions

    Quick - rely on passing, breaking high closing down, vulnerable to interceptions. Many chances, but not really formidable

    Slow - rely on control, possession, players off the ball work. Vulnerable to high closing down, but passing is better abroad. Players NOT ALWAYS TEND TO RUSH SHOTS, in fact, i notice they sometimes tend to mek short passes/crosses across 6 yard box, which is funny

    And grand conclusions:
    It's self explanatory, that passing and tempo should match, or atleast to be close by.

    I don't see why should i ever use tempo above normal, only proper use i see - you REALLY need goal, which is not usual situation and starting point of any match, really.

  99. #899
    Amateur
    Join Date
    31st May 2007
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    150

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    quote:
    Originally posted by gogis:
    I don't see why should i ever use tempo above normal, only proper use i see - you REALLY need goal, which is not usual situation and starting point of any match, really.

    If you play the lower leagues where the passing attribute of your defenders is quite often <7 and even your midfield struggle to get into double figures a quick tempo,long passing game is your best bet. Better to lose the ball in the opposition half than give it away on the edge of your box.

  100. #900
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    Hi there

    I'm pretty new to this and I'm downloading the patch right now.
    I have a fe questions.
    1. Is the patch worth it?
    2. Will the patch locate FM or do I have to do that myself?

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