A revised approach to FM management

Today someone brought up a subject again that has at times dominated Football Manager Chat - is FM to easy for big team players?

The simple answer is yes, with functions such as player stats, player search and filters and staff searches, it is easy to win say the premier league with Man utd, Chelsea or even Arsenal or Man City in the first season, many of us already know that.

People then respond with "well go play with lower league teams etc" - well my response to that is; some people don't want to play with lower league teams, simple as that. They want a challenge managing Chelsea, or Liverpool, just like Guss Hiddink did, and Ancelottie and Benitez do now. Chances are they will not win the trophy, especially Benitez - but on FM, chacnes are after 2 seasons you will. And for you lower league managers, it is an enjoyable game, but very often you exceed expectation, I know I did, and I am not that great at all, and its all because of what we have at our disposal - the player stats especially. Real managers don't have these stats at their disposal, they have their own judgement based on what they see, and what they are told by whom ever they trust, whether it be other managers or their own scouts - so here is my suggestions:

(now I know some of the following are already rules within the LLM forums and style of play, and they are great rules and add to the realism, so I hope they don't mind adding them to my suggestions here.)

1. No player filter searches (although I blieve you can look for players with expired contracts, you just can't look at their stats - this rule will follow)

2. No Staff filter searches - only place adverts

3. Most importantly, you cannot look at player stats - however I suggest that you can look at staff stats, as it would be too awkward to play without

Yes I know some of you will be like WTF? and stats are one of the most important features of FM, for those of you who don't want to do that, thats fine, I am directing this to those who want a more realistic simulation, even if you play with big teams.

Anyway, what I think this will add is a real touch of realism, as I have already mentioned, real life managers do not get access to such information, unless they compile it for themselves based on what they see. It will place much more importance on matches and match form, maybe it will force us to think more and watch matches on extended or full match for a while, just like real managers do. Again not for everyone, especially not the casual gamer - which is absolutely fine. We can use things such as coach reports, positions and personality to get a basic idea on how the player plays, where he plays and what type of player he may be, stats such as size and weight may help as well as description. We can also use the internet just like a real manager can, Youtube, Wikipedia, Club websites are all at your disposal and adds a new dimension to the game I feel.

The only problem with this is, when you click on a player it instantly goes to stats screen, it is up to you to quickly navigate away from it, I know I can without making sense of the stats.

Anyway, its just a suggestion, largely based on LLM rules but with added challenges, and somehting that adds hugely to the game I feel, I know im excited about playing it this way, with ANY team.

When you say "stats", do you mean "attributes"? Because if a player has stats, wouldn't they be in the public domain? I mean, if he has played 53 matches and has a headers won percentage of 67, wouldn't we be able to know that?

We can hope for a day when SI gives us a way to play with LLM/"ultra-reality" rules built-in, and your suggestions aren't bad.

so how would you go about buying players to be better than what you have already with out stats?

You should be aloud to see player/coach attributes/stats. But no player search/filter and coach filter would be good! Means you have to actual look at leagues and clubs to see what your looking for, same with coaching!

people need to remeber that this is a game not real life so it should be easy when managing a big club. Because this is a game stats play the biggest part in it and the best players should win. I know in real life that players like torres dont show up every game but because this is a computer game it is hard to implement this. So if you want a chalenge choose a small club.

Sorry, yes I mean attributes, not stats thank you.

You judge on scout reports, and games, as real manager would, if this sounds too hard for you then fair enough as I have already said.

Think of it this way, when a manager targets a player, he will have him heavily scouted, and either listen to the reports, or watch the matches for themselves, Then judge, whether as we will just look at a players attributes and decide whether or not he is good enough - again not completely realistic. I must stress that this idea is not for the casual gamer who just want to play freely and less stressful, its for those who want to emulate real life management a little more. It would mean watching whole games at a time, games that don't involve yourself. concentrating on the one players movement and involvement, relying on match stats aswell more than we do, often we see "attributes" as the be all and end all, so we are more willing to ignore form or match stats at times, well I know I do.

Don't get me wrong, it will be hard, and time consuming, but as I sit here now I am using the internet to get a better idea on my squad, looking at the odd youtube video or article, it jsut adds that littl;e bit extra i need to keep my attention. Sometimes we just get in the zone of pressing continue so often because we know our squad so well.

Please do not think I am moaning about the realism of FM, because i'm not, it is by far the best simulation game on the market and has millions upon millions of fans - and I have loved and bought every single copy since I can remember - it is just a subject I read and thought i would post some ideas on. Ideas that I am now acting on, and getting some amazing enjoyment out of.

people need to remeber that this is a game not real life so it should be easy when managing a big club. Because this is a game stats play the biggest part in it and the best players should win. I know in real life that players like torres dont show up every game but because this is a computer game it is hard to implement this. So if you want a chalenge choose a small club.

This is my point, some people want a challenge WITH big clubs, just like in real life managing big clubs are a different sort of challenge to small clubs. I am suggesting ways such people can get that enjoyment. This is just a stock answer people use, but you are showing ignorance by not fully reading my post.

if it is the visible attributes which makes it easy; then SI can have another slider for hiding values; there was already one in FM09 which hide attributes for unknown players unless they are scouted. So far it was on or off. It could have more steps and on hardest level you will need to scout a famous player at least for 5 games to see all his values and scale it down for less popular unknown players. That should make it hard enough to find good cheap players easily.

For me and I tend to believe for majority game is not very easy. I can win if I try hard but it is not piece of cake or so easy that I'm getting bored, for just fine. I wrote in some other topic that my major difficulty concern is the amount of good free agents and somehow silly transfer policy of AI teams. I think it is possible to build a team which can make it to CL quarter final only with free agents and obviously such is not possible in real life.

Yes they can, and that is entirely up to them if others want to play this way too. I am not pushing for any sort of change though, this is not the point in the thread, only to give direction to those who are looking for a little more realism and challenge.

What I do is only buy players I have seen play irl. This means that if there is an Italian player with amazing stats but I have never seen play then I cannot buy them but if I wanted to buy for example Eden Hazrd then I could because I have seen him play for Lille irl.

Today someone brought up a subject again that has at times dominated Football Manager Chat - is FM to easy for big team players?

The simple answer is yes, with functions such as player stats, player search and filters and staff searches, it is easy to win say the premier league with Man utd, Chelsea or even Arsenal or Man City in the first season, many of us already know that.

Obviously its going to be pretty easy to win the league in the first season with the teams mentioned above but try it with a team like Hull City or West Ham with the attribute masking enabled, their worse finances and their much poorer scouts then I think you'll find it almost impossible to win the league in the first season unless your some sort of tactical genius or cheat and use the editor to give yourself better staff and lots of money.

I quite like the idea of not being able to view attributes of players and staff. One solution could be to include an alternative skin which changes the profile screen of players and staff, so instead of a list of all attributes you´d only get a list of strengths, weaknesses and preferred moves (based on coach/scout reports). Obviously this would also affect the player search function as you´d only be able to search for a player with eg. "crossing" as one of his strenghts, but you couldn´t tell if he had 15 or 19 in crossing.

Gdawg, I don't use filters and rely on scouts and the job centre, but it had never occured to me to avoid looking at attributes once I had scouted players! Thank you for that - I'm looking forward to managing a small German team in FM10, but the next time I try a 'big' club I'm going to give that a go

you can also switch to the graphical attributes view instead of the numerical. It's so incomprehensible that it's easy to ignore.

Out of interest does starting as a former sunday league football make a difference to the difficulty of managing a big club to starting as a former international? Or is there not enough difference? Perhaps a former sunday league footballer should start with only basic scouting knowledge even in the country of his birth, as he wouldn't know in depth details of even top flight footballers. How many of us who live in England could say Rooney's passing is say 15/20 for sure?

you can also switch to the graphical attributes view instead of the numerical. It's so incomprehensible that it's easy to ignore.

Good idea mate

people need to remeber that this is a game not real life so it should be easy when managing a big club. Because this is a game stats play the biggest part in it and the best players should win. I know in real life that players like torres dont show up every game but because this is a computer game it is hard to implement this. So if you want a chalenge choose a small club.

Obviously its going to be pretty easy to win the league in the first season with the teams mentioned above but try it with a team like Hull City or West Ham with the attribute masking enabled, their worse finances and their much poorer scouts then I think you'll find it almost impossible to win the league in the first season unless your some sort of tactical genius or cheat and use the editor to give yourself better staff and lots of money.

Ok firstly, I don't cheat, I haven't used an editor, so you can take that slander away to fcuk. secondly, no you will not win the league with Hull City in the first season on FM, but give yourself 5 seasons and its achievable. In real life however you ain't gona do it, thats the people who im talking abouts point. Thirdly, I always enable atytribute masking, but once they are scouted thats it, i know if they are good enough for my team - a little less realstic than what i'm suggesting.

I reiterate, i'm not saying the game is too easy to play, i'm putting an idea forth for some guys who are looking for something a little more life like ok, now give it up with the stock answers about starting with lesser teams, your missing the whole point of the thread.

Gdawg, I don't use filters and rely on scouts and the job centre, but it had never occured to me to avoid looking at attributes once I had scouted players! Thank you for that - I'm looking forward to managing a small German team in FM10, but the next time I try a 'big' club I'm going to give that a go

I quite like the idea of not being able to view attributes of players and staff. One solution could be to include an alternative skin which changes the profile screen of players and staff, so instead of a list of all attributes you´d only get a list of strengths, weaknesses and preferred moves (based on coach/scout reports). Obviously this would also affect the player search function as you´d only be able to search for a player with eg. "crossing" as one of his strenghts, but you couldn´t tell if he had 15 or 19 in crossing.

Great guys, this is why I posted it, as further idea's to add a bit of realism, not to get in a slanging match with people who don't want to read the full contents of the thread. I already stated I think FM is the best simulation game ever invented, and for me the best game period.

Also to the guy who mentioned the graphical view, that is what I have started doing, i allow myself to view this as an indication of what type of player he is, just sort of testing it out making sure it doesnt make it to unrealistic.

Ok firstly, I don't cheat, I haven't used an editor, so you can take that slander away to fcuk. secondly, no you will not win the league with Hull City in the first season on FM, but give yourself 5 seasons and its achievable. In real life however you ain't gona do it, thats the people who im talking abouts point. Thirdly, I always enable atytribute masking, but once they are scouted thats it, i know if they are good enough for my team - a little less realstic than what i'm suggesting.

Gdawg I think you might be over-reacting here a bit, from my reading of the post trekman was only saying that if you lowered your sights a bit lower in the prem. you might get the level of challenge you're looking for. From being a man who serially manages Fiorentina (over multiple iterations) I know that it can be great fun having a five year plan for to build up the finances to really put it up tho the big guys. I also took over the Villa back in 05 (when playing wise they were like the Hammers, but better financially) and that was a great challenge until I was seduced away by Utd about 7 years in.

Aside from an entirely separate mode, perhaps introducing greater uncertainty might help. In statistics, you generally have to make inferences based on observations. Those inferences are not necessarily accurate. So what could be done, for instance, is to introduce "confidence intervals" or "sampling error": for example, if you scout a player, you'll get their attributes, but those attributes might not be entirely accurate - depending on the quality of your scouts, some of the attributes might be spot on while others might be 3 or 4 points off. And each scout might come up with a different assessment of a given player's attributes.

I like this idea. I would love to just rely on scouting reports and my own observation of players.

BUT, SI would have to give us some extra tools.

Scouting reports are great, but also, agents trying to sell their players, a "Match of the Day" type round up and the ability to interview or talk to players would be key.

I don't know how they do it in real life, but in addition to scout reports (which should figure in to your finances, a little more directly than it does now, knowing I'd have to send a scout to Ecuador from England might make me think twice), I'd like to see stats (game stats, not attributes, but ProZone-type figures) and some sort of interview/trial process. Just getting a player on 'trial' in it's present form isn't enough. Plus, I'd like the option to NOT put every player I scout on my shortlist. I'd like to have to choose who goes on my 'shortlist', then worry about that when it gets out to the media.

Also, I like the idea of scouting reports and how good they are based on how good your scout is.

I think the idea of not looking at attributes is a great one. I think it might be too time consuming for most (myself included) but it's definitely an idea people can consider. An option to hide all attributes and replace a players main screen with something else is a simple feature that wouldn't be too much bother for SI to impliment for FM11, so I hope they will. I know it's not going to be a hugely used feature, but for the minority that want to use it, it can't take much coding. Until then, a modified skin would do the job perfectly, so you should ask one of the people skilled in skin making to have a go at knocking one up.

Great idea.

not having a search engine wouldnt make the game harder, just more time consuming to find what you want, may be there should be a thew more hidden stats if any thing, and you could also use the FOG that will take some stats away from players you have never scouted, thats more realistic..

I think you need to add more pressure with the big clubs like if your managing Real Madrid and you don't win La liga you know your most likely gonna get sacked cause that's exactly what they will do in real life faliure is not an option there. The same would most likely happen to Ancellotti if he fails to deliver silverware

Today someone brought up a subject again that has at times dominated Football Manager Chat - is FM to easy for big team players?

The simple answer is yes, with functions such as player stats, player search and filters and staff searches, it is easy to win say the premier league with Man utd, Chelsea or even Arsenal or Man City in the first season, many of us already know that.

People then respond with "well go play with lower league teams etc" - well my response to that is; some people don't want to play with lower league teams, simple as that. They want a challenge managing Chelsea, or Liverpool, just like Guss Hiddink did, and Ancelottie and Benitez do now. Chances are they will not win the trophy, especially Benitez - but on FM, chacnes are after 2 seasons you will. And for you lower league managers, it is an enjoyable game, but very often you exceed expectation, I know I did, and I am not that great at all, and its all because of what we have at our disposal - the player stats especially. Real managers don't have these stats at their disposal, they have their own judgement based on what they see, and what they are told by whom ever they trust, whether it be other managers or their own scouts - so here is my suggestions:

(now I know some of the following are already rules within the LLM forums and style of play, and they are great rules and add to the realism, so I hope they don't mind adding them to my suggestions here.)

1. No player filter searches (although I blieve you can look for players with expired contracts, you just can't look at their stats - this rule will follow)

2. No Staff filter searches - only place adverts

3. Most importantly, you cannot look at player stats - however I suggest that you can look at staff stats, as it would be too awkward to play without

Yes I know some of you will be like WTF? and stats are one of the most important features of FM, for those of you who don't want to do that, thats fine, I am directing this to those who want a more realistic simulation, even if you play with big teams.

Anyway, what I think this will add is a real touch of realism, as I have already mentioned, real life managers do not get access to such information, unless they compile it for themselves based on what they see. It will place much more importance on matches and match form, maybe it will force us to think more and watch matches on extended or full match for a while, just like real managers do. Again not for everyone, especially not the casual gamer - which is absolutely fine. We can use things such as coach reports, positions and personality to get a basic idea on how the player plays, where he plays and what type of player he may be, stats such as size and weight may help as well as description. We can also use the internet just like a real manager can, Youtube, Wikipedia, Club websites are all at your disposal and adds a new dimension to the game I feel.

The only problem with this is, when you click on a player it instantly goes to stats screen, it is up to you to quickly navigate away from it, I know I can without making sense of the stats.

Anyway, its just a suggestion, largely based on LLM rules but with added challenges, and somehting that adds hugely to the game I feel, I know im excited about playing it this way, with ANY team.

Your attitude is good. It annoys me that some want the difficulty level increased - the game is hard enough for me! I confess the much awaited TI hasnt helped me much yet I keep tinkering with sliders - something I am useless at, but the potential for us all to make good tactics & be sucessfull is surely the point of the game? In a driving game if you have the right car and drive on the edge to the right racing line you will most often win - that is the point. I do sympathise with someone who wants more of a challenge (you cannot unlearn tactics because they are successful!), especially with big clubs if you find that too easy (I find the increased expectations level-out the difficulty factor), but eg if you want a challenge to make Chelsea all conquering then:

a/ Use no searches at all !.

b/ Use visual media (Sky Sports, wweb, DVD's) to scout "Real" players for the game

c/ Scout in-game only by watcing FM matches

Point 2 would I suspect make an exciting challenge for us all but for now I will play with the TI, awaiting wwfan 's innevitable guide on how to utilise it and real footbal philosophies !

Rather than no attributes, I feel when looking at players some attributes should remain completely masked and maybe a few with ranges, eg Crossing 11-17, the more you scout these players and the higher the quality of your scouts the smaller the range gets. Things like mental attributes would remain masked until you sign or trial the player and get to know them personally, and some of the physical attributes (natural fitness, stamina etc.) also remain masked until the player completes his physical, following which you should have the option to cancel the move if he's not up to expectations.

I do agree that some players like more of a challenge, that's why in the demo I'm having a go with Leicester, and some of the suggestions are very good. However I don't feel that removing the attributes from visiblity is the right direction for my money, as they are such an essential part of the game.

Since SI already uses a star rating, adapting that to stats would be an interesting idea to take this further. Or, if people don't prefer stars, just a Poor, Okay, Good, etc etc system rather than a range like 11-17 for crossing. Then you'd need to make a judgment based on your scouts opinion of the player's skill.

Personally, I like OOTPs way of scouting, where the attribute values we see are filtered through scouts' and coaches' eyes. They are wrong. The better the scout/coach, the closer they are to being right, but nobody is perfect - even the best scouts and coaches are a little off. But a bad scout could tell you, for instance, that a player's dribbling was 5 when it was really 18, or vice versa. The ONLY way get a complete picture is by comparing what the scouts tell you to the player's stats, if he has any. A Passing attribute of 18 may be disbelieved if he has a pass completion percentage of 23...If he hasn't played any matches, you're taking a chance...

I like the the idea about 'use no scout reports 'and avoid the stats of a player ect.

When FM comes out I'm only going to search people by there performance and stuff,(like watch there games and look at there stats e.g how many goals they scored how many matches they played.

Personally, I like OOTPs way of scouting, where the attribute values we see are filtered through scouts' and coaches' eyes. They are wrong. The better the scout/coach, the closer they are to being right, but nobody is perfect - even the best scouts and coaches are a little off. But a bad scout could tell you, for instance, that a player's dribbling was 5 when it was really 18, or vice versa. The ONLY way get a complete picture is by comparing what the scouts tell you to the player's stats, if he has any. A Passing attribute of 18 may be disbelieved if he has a pass completion percentage of 23...If he hasn't played any matches, you're taking a chance...

For me, the problem now is that scouts don't tell what they see but they have a "power" to know things they can't see ! What I want to say is if they watch a game they should give us attributes relating to what they saw... if a player did good passing in the match they should tells us so and not give us their real attributes ! How could they tell us that a player has a poor passing attribute if he did well when they watched him !

All valid idea's for future games, however i'm not lobbying for such things, just trying to help people work with what they have at their disposal.

As someone said previously if SI want to put in a feature to switch between graphical view and attribute view that would be ideal, as graphical views don't give away as much detailed information, but information we can get access easily too in real life, like if a player is fast, or mentally strong, this is what the graphical view shows, without giving detailed ratings on attributes.

Also a new skin, thats a good idea for anyone who would like to use that.

good discussion guys.

First of all you are not a real football manager.You are not getting payed for playing Football Manager and you do not get bonuses if you win the league or the Champions league.I have max 3-4 hours free time a day.I dont want so spend it all on FM playing through a week!!

You might want to read the full thread before being a complete d*ck.

First of all you are not a real football manager.You are not getting payed for playing Football Manager and you do not get bonuses if you win the league or the Champions league.I have max 3-4 hours free time a day.I dont want so spend it all on FM playing through a week!!

wtf was that post about,.... completely random

complete ******** is what he is. He obviously just had his back up, mabe had a bad monring, never got any from his bird or something who knows.

I did toy with the idea of changing the attribute numbers to colours, based on 4 splits (ie, 0-5, 6-10, 11-14, 15-20), but I don't have the know-how to actually do it unfortunately. It would be interesting to see whether it would work, though.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=146174

Gdawg69 so are you going to buy a player by attributes ect, or are you going to not use the attributes and use the graphical attributes view or scout by watching matches ?

I wouldn't change a thing about the attributes, as they are integral for FM to remain so popular, as most players are just casual gamers wanting some fun. However I would consider being able to change it to that sort of view you speak about- but even then, it would give me too much of an indication of how better someone is without the actual need to watch or scout them.

complete ******** is what he is. He obviously just had his back up, mabe had a bad monring, never got any from his bird or something who knows.

Just F*ck off!!You want to compare players by watching them on the ME.Maybe you got a lot of free time but i dont.That's why the attributes are there in the first place.

Thats exactly what I said on the f*ckin thread you ignorant pig. so you f*ck off, no ones asking you to do it, so why feel the need to come and and be an absolute scumbag about it eh?

This is all easily managed already, it just requires the mental resolve to stick with the self imposed limitations, basically your applying the LLMforum ethos outside the lower leagues.

tick the [mask player attributes] box when creating a game

build a player shortlist from scout-reports only

use the job centre only for hiring new staff

The hardest part will be ignoring the urge to brag about how wonderfully you have failed season after season in true LLM fasion

I am also adding that you cannot at any time look at a players attributes, with only reference to the graphical view to help.

i thought about it if i should do it or not ,,,,,, and i wont do it cause i'm going to manage a low reputation team and it will be VERY VERY hard to not look at attributes and not use the scout reports ect and i figured out it will take a long time ..... but its a good idea for people that has lots of time ect and don't go clubbing and stuff.

Personally I think you shouldn't be able to see any players/staff attributes and only see your own players/staff attributes once they've settled at the club. You should be able to see a rough outline of the attributes (ie whats good, what isn't) initially, after a month or two see the preferred moves as well and more accurate attribute numbers but only see everything (or what we see now) when the player is fully settled. Which might take several seasons.

Something like that would be ace, as it'd mean once you'd got settled with some players and moved clubs you'd be inclined to move bring the players to your new club.

It would also mean transfers would be a bit of a gamble.... but it is in real life too! So many transfers don't work out as the manager has overestimated the players skill. Or the player isn't what the manager thought he was...

Personally I think you shouldn't be able to see any players/staff attributes and only see your own players/staff attributes once they've settled at the club. You should be able to see a rough outline of the attributes (ie whats good, what isn't) initially, after a month or two see the preferred moves as well and more accurate attribute numbers but only see everything (or what we see now) when the player is fully settled. Which might take several seasons.

Something like that would be ace, as it'd mean once you'd got settled with some players and moved clubs you'd be inclined to move bring the players to your new club.

It would also mean transfers would be a bit of a gamble.... but it is in real life too! So many transfers don't work out as the manager has overestimated the players skill. Or the player isn't what the manager thought he was...

i think it wont be fun as it is now when, you can see the attribuites and people will complain ,alot if this happens and people will not take interest, with FM any more cause its to hard and not fun cause they do lots of mistakes. ect

i thought about it if i should do it or not ,,,,,, and i wont do it cause i'm going to manage a low reputation team and it will be VERY VERY hard to not look at attributes and not use the scout reports ect and i figured out it will take a long time ..... but its a good idea for people that has lots of time ect and don't go clubbing and stuff.

nice under handed dig there mate, but I do clubbing, I also have a half 8 til 5 job like many other fm fans, and that job can keep me in late many times. I also have a girlfriend and many friends, but when I do come to play footy manager at nights to relax or weekends before work again, then I can still play it this way, just means playing less games, but at least it will be less robotic.

. I also have a girlfriend and many friends, but when I do come to play footy manager at nights to relax or weekends before work again, then I can still play it this way, just means playing less games, but at least it will be less robotic.

OH!!! yeah ture

what?

that made sense.

what?

that made sense.

yeah it did, i understand what your talking about.

Rather than no attributes, I feel when looking at players some attributes should remain completely masked and maybe a few with ranges, eg Crossing 11-17, the more you scout these players and the higher the quality of your scouts the smaller the range gets. Things like mental attributes would remain masked until you sign or trial the player and get to know them personally, and some of the physical attributes (natural fitness, stamina etc.) also remain masked until the player completes his physical, following which you should have the option to cancel the move if he's not up to expectations.

I was just about to say exactly the same things you put here.