Forum Re-Organisation

[Bertie BG]

Dear all.

You may well have noticed that we have recently had a reorganise of the Football Manager Live forums.

Essentially this change was to seperate the discussion from current managers away from the General Questions area. This was done as we felt that questions from people new to the game were being swamped by the many threads from our active managers. We feel it's important that new people have their own area where they can ask questions about Football Manager Live and get more information about the game without feeling intimidated by the in depth discussion between active managers.

We've also added the Which Gameworld Should I Join? forum as a specific area for current managers to be able to talk about their gameworld (and why the should join it!) to new subsribers.

We're in the process of digging through the General Questions forum and moving the threads into the appropriate new section. Please be patient with us in the meantime.

Please note, if you are a current subscriber you will need to make sure you are logged into these forums using the same SEGA Pass details as your subscription in order to see the private subscriber areas.

The Football Manager Live Team

[Rb]

I have moved over the first 3 pages worth of gameworld advertising threads to : Which Gameworld Should I Join? forum

If there are any specific advertisement threads you want moving, please post the links in here (Or PM me) and we'll get them moved for you as soon as possible

[durera (beta)]

I think it's odd that all the general discussion of the game is now hidden from non-subscribers (such as my beta account). It makes sense creating a seperate space for people that aren't playing the game yet so that their questions don't disappear in the mass of posts from current users, but I don't understand why you'd want to prevent them from even viewing the subscriber discussion.

The forums are a great way to judge the activity of an online game's community before signing up, I can't think of any other MMO that doesn't have pubic read access to their main subscriber discussion forums, I presume this is an accidental thing rather than a conscious decision?

(I only noticed this because my beta account e-mail address doesn't match my retail e-mail address, hence is considered a non-subscriber)

[mdbussen]

why are the tactical forums and stories and good player picks in the "Interested in FML?" section? Shouldn't they both be part of the subscriber discussion?

[Robes]

There is a general questions forum? I don't think my account is linked to that somehow but I am a subscriber of FML. How do I get on it?

[Bertie BG]

To answer the two above questions

1) The reason we have set the current subscriber forums to private is because it will make us feel more comfortable in talking in detail about updates, your concerns and new features without feeling like we are sending confusing messages to those using the forums to find out more about the game and to find out whether they want to give signing up to the game a go.

2) The reason we have put the Tactics/ Stories forums in the public Interested in FML? Section of the forums was for the reasons that durera stated above - we wanted to give new subscribers a way to judge the activity and the community before signing up.

The overall aim of all the changes was to make the forums a less intimidating place for both potential new subscribers and current subscribers who might be new to the forums.

All these changes are, however, up for review and if we feel that things aren't working as we want them to. we can always change them to something else.

[Bertie BG]

There is a general questions forum? I don't think my account is linked to that somehow but I am a subscriber of FML. How do I get on it?

You would need to log into the forums with the same address and password as you use to log into the game.

[Robes2]

Oh right, I have a feeling that there will be alot of people that won't understand that aside from myself. If you were here long before FML then there is a good chance you used a different email address to sign up. Now I have a horrible 2 after my name

[Bertie BG]

Oh right, I have a feeling that there will be alot of people that won't understand that aside from myself. If you were here long before FML then there is a good chance you used a different email address to sign up. Now I have a horrible 2 after my name

Good point. Have added a note to the original post in this announcement thread

[ptr]

Slightly tedious having to sign in every time, particularly as it won't keep me signed in if I navigate away from the page.

[MyNameIsJohn]

Dress it up how you like but it's pretty obvious that the current subscriber forum has been made private to avoid potential new users being put off by negative posts. Surprised it's taken this long. Not surprised that SEGA/SI can't be honest about it though.

[durera (beta)]

To answer the two above questions

1) The reason we have set the current subscriber forums to private is because it will make us feel more comfortable in talking in detail about updates, your concerns and new features without feeling like we are sending confusing messages to those using the forums to find out more about the game and to find out whether they want to give signing up to the game a go.

2) The reason we have put the Tactics/ Stories forums in the public Interested in FML? Section of the forums was for the reasons that durera stated above - we wanted to give new subscribers a way to judge the activity and the community before signing up.

The overall aim of all the changes was to make the forums a less intimidating place for both potential new subscribers and current subscribers who might be new to the forums.

All these changes are, however, up for review and if we feel that things aren't working as we want them to. we can always change them to something else.

Call me cynical if you wish, but it strikes me that it's an attempt to hide what could be considered the less shiny-happy part of the forums away from potential new subscribers. All games' forums have their trolls, doom mongers & griefers, and I certainly don't think FML's forums are any worse than others in this respect.

If the seemingly constant stream of "Why won't you open a new GW?", "Formation X is overpowered", "I predict DOOM" threads were better moderated (surely a merge isn't too much to ask) the general discussion forum wouldn't look half as bad to an outsider imo, and would be a hell of a lot easier on the eye to us subscribers.

Re: the piece I have bolded -- why would you want to hide this away from potential new customers? The developers here engage with the community on a regular basis and often divulge genuinely interesting information about the game and it's future, if anything we need a Developer Digest feature here so that we can all easily see when and where the devs are posting in the forums so we don't have to trawl through all the trash to find them

[Bertie BG]

Slightly tedious having to sign in every time, particularly as it won't keep me signed in if I navigate away from the page.

Click the remember me button and you shouldn't have to do that

Dress it up how you like but it's pretty obvious that the current subscriber forum has been made private to avoid potential new users being put off by negative posts. Surprised it's taken this long. Not surprised that SEGA/SI can't be honest about it though.

It would be a lie to say that this wasn't a consideration, but the reason why we decided down this route was that we strongly felt that new users were potentially intimidated by the forums and wanted to change things to make it so that new people feel more comfortable about getting involved.

Be as cynical as you like, but we are certainly being honest, as we are regularly so on these forums (probably so much that it's to our detriment!). The motivation behind this change was as we said, other effects that this change may have may be seen as a bonus or they may be purely coincidental, not coming and saying that these effects were the main motivation is not not being honest.

Re: the piece I have bolded -- why would you want to hide this away from potential new customers? The developers here engage with the community on a regular basis and often divulge genuinely interesting information about the game and it's future, if anything we need a Developer Digest feature here so that we can all easily see when and where the devs are posting in the forums so we don't have to trawl through all the trash to find them

Because we want to sell the game to these people as it is now, not how it might be in 3/4 months time. With the nature of the game being that it is constantly developing, we didn't want to give the impression that the game was "unfinished". It's not "unfinished", it's just that we are constantly improving the game.

I'd also like to point out that this is by no means something that is necessarily a permanent change. We're giving this a go to see what effect it has, and if it doesn't work as we hope, or we think that opening up the subscriber discussion forums might be beneficial, we can always change things in the future.

The Developer Digest feature is a good idea tho, and will mention it to the team.

[mkij]

To answer the two above questions

1) The reason we have set the current subscriber forums to private is because it will make us feel more comfortable in talking in detail about updates, your concerns and new features without feeling like we are sending confusing messages to those using the forums to find out more about the game and to find out whether they want to give signing up to the game a go.

2) The reason we have put the Tactics/ Stories forums in the public Interested in FML? Section of the forums was for the reasons that durera stated above - we wanted to give new subscribers a way to judge the activity and the community before signing up.

The overall aim of all the changes was to make the forums a less intimidating place for both potential new subscribers and current subscribers who might be new to the forums.

All these changes are, however, up for review and if we feel that things aren't working as we want them to. we can always change them to something else.

Or is it that you dont want people who have not brought the game, looking at bad feedback. There for putting them of buying it????????????????????????

[Bertie BG]

Or is it that you dont want people who have not brought the game, looking at bad feedback. There for putting them of buying it?

Please read my latest post. As I said, that was a consideration but it was not the main motivation behind the change.

[durera (beta)]

Because we want to sell the game to these people as it is now, not how it might be in 3/4 months time. With the nature of the game being that it is constantly developing, we didn't want to give the impression that the game was "unfinished". It's not "unfinished", it's just that we are constantly improving the game.

I think people understand that persistent world online games are ongoing development projects that will constantly recieve updates/patches/whatever-the-developer-labels-them -- it's part of the justifcation behind the monthly fees afterall, so this shouldn't concern anyone at SI or SEGA really

I don't think that anyone who'd consider playing a game like FML is going to view the fact it recieves regular updates, including substantial new function such as the upcoming Academies, in a negative light.

Be more strict in moderating the subscriber discussion forums -- particularly in merging the numerious duplicate posts on the same topic, and maybe give us some subforums for more popular topics to make it more organised in there (e.g. youth development, club finances, a GW specific forum per GW for those GW specific "issues" that regularly plague the general discussion). This is a well-trodden path for MMOs, you don't have to look too far for examples of how to make the forums less intimidating without resorting to hiding them from public view.

Keep the signal:noise ratio down and make it more inviting for new and existing cutomers -- It seems to me like it's simply being hidden in a dark corner out of the way because it's a bit of a mess in there at the moment

[mkij]

Ok i think it is a terrible idea just like the person above does, in away you showing/proving that you have something to hide and therefore, you are saying yourself that the game/comunity has BIG problems.

[Bertie BG]

I think people understand that persistent world online games are ongoing development projects that will constantly recieve updates/patches/whatever-the-developer-labels-them -- it's part of the justifcation behind the monthly fees afterall, so this shouldn't concern anyone at SI or SEGA really

I don't think that anyone who'd consider playing a game like FML is going to view the fact it recieves regular updates, including substantial new function such as the upcoming Academies, in a negative light.

Be more strict in moderating the subscriber discussion forums -- particularly in merging the numerious duplicate posts on the same topic, and maybe give us some subforums for more popular topics to make it more organised in there (e.g. youth development, club finances, a GW specific forum per GW for those GW specific "issues" that regularly plague the general discussion). This is a well-trodden path for MMOs, you don't have to look too far for examples of how to make the forums less intimidating without resorting to hiding them from public view.

Keep the signal:noise ratio down and make it more inviting for new and existing cutomers -- It seems to me like it's simply being hidden in a dark corner out of the way because it's a bit of a mess in there at the moment

They are all fair points and certainly ones that we will take into consideration when reviewing this decision over the next few days/weeks.

I've already explained the reasoning as to why we felt a need for a change so I won't go into it again. Essentially we decided to go down this route because during the early BETA days (before we launched) we had people playing the game and their discussion seperated from the General Questions/Interested in the game forums and it worked really nicely as a tool to build a buzz about the game and get people talking about it (which is a big part of what the forums are for after all)

Splitting up in this way, may well be a mistake and if it is, you're more than welcome to sit there and tell us you told us so. However, there's no real harm in giving this method a go.

As I said, we will be reviewing this over the next few weeks and we will take into account your feedback when doing so.

Ok i think it is a terrible idea just like the person above does, in away you showing/proving that you have something to hide and therefore, you are saying yourself that the game/comunity has BIG problems.

You are entitled to your own opinion.

[Abz Khan]

So what is FML General Discussion now?

[Bertie BG]

So what is FML General Discussion now?

As they were dominated by current subscriber discussions, FML General Discussion is now FML Subscriber Discussion.

We will move threads out of there and into the more General "Interested in FML" forum as and when we find them.

[Abz Khan]

Where is FML Suscriber Discussion? I signed out and in but still don't have it I was reguarly posting on FML General Discussions

[Bertie BG]

Where is FML Suscriber Discussion? I signed out and in but still don't have it I was reguarly posting on FML General Discussions

Are you signed in using the same SEGA Pass account that you use for FML?

[mkij]

Why did the link send me to good players and team guide, as that certainly is not the right thread.

[mkij]

and how does that not belong in there? as i was trying to have a genral descussion with the community

[Liniert]

bah, my current game email isnt linked to this account and i dont really want to get rid of this one

[Bertie BG]

Why did the link send me to good players and team guide, as that certainly is not the right thread.

That was an error, have ammended the link so it now sends you here.

and how does that not belong in there? as i was trying to have a genral descussion with the community

Because as the description for that forum says. It is intended for discussions about the manager profiles section of the website/ fansites/ and other fan based initiatives.

Disagreements with an SI/SEGA decision should be posted in the thread/ forum appropriate for that decision. This is that thread.

[mkij]

So what forum am i allowed to talk to non subscribers about the game?
Or have a genrale discussion with?

[Abz Khan]

Are you signed in using the same SEGA Pass account that you use for FML?

Yes Bertie Please help.

[Rb]

So what forum am i allowed to talk to non subscribers about the game?

The interested in FML forum is designed for people who want to know about the game, but are not subscribed to find out more.

I personally like the changes. Its been a long time coming in my opinion. The old 'GQ' was far to bogged down with different queries and genuine external questions from people who hadn't played the game tended to get mainly ignored with the big debate threads replacing them back at the top very quickly (Either that or the gameworld advertisement threads)

This way people can ask and get some proper responses

[Rb]

Or have a genrale discussion with?

As for a general discussion with users. I suggest you try the off topic forum

[mkij]

The interested in FML forum is designed for people who want to know about the game, but are not subscribed to find out more.

I personally like the changes. Its been a long time coming in my opinion. The old 'GQ' was far to bogged down with different queries and genuine external questions from people who hadn't played the game tended to get mainly ignored with the big debate threads replacing them back at the top very quickly (Either that or the gameworld advertisement threads)

This way people can ask and get some proper responses

Yes i can understand that view, but why make it private?
Why do i have to have a new name?
And to answer your other reply, i cant post in off topic, because it is off topic.
I might want to share my views with them but now im being forced not to.

[Rb]

Yes i can understand that view, but why make it private?
Why do i have to have a new name?
And to answer your other reply, i cant post in off topic, because it is off topic.

You said you wanted a 'general discussion' with them, not something FML related. If you want to answer questions from users wanting to play the game, then I've already mentioned where you can do that.

Its been covered before why these things have happened, I'm not going to go around in circles in this thread now, especially as I'm not the person to be answering them. Nowhere has anyone said we're going to moderate your views when you're asked a question, all that's happened is we've moved things to the correct locations.

As I said before, people asking questions before didn't get the replies, now they will

[T-Bag]

Please put the edit button back, I edit nearly all of my posts several times due to mistakes or things I want to quickly add in. I'm going to end up posting about 5 extra responses per thread.

[Rb]

Please put the edit button back, I edit nearly all of my posts several times due to mistakes or things I want to quickly add in. I'm going to end up posting about 5 extra responses per thread.

Which specific forums do you not have the edit button currently?

[T-Bag]

Subscriber discussion.

I have it in this forum and the odd other one I have a post in to check.

[Abz Khan]

Can anyone check my post above?

[Rb]

Subscriber discussion.

I have it in this forum and the odd other one I have a post in to check.

Sounds like the permissions just haven't been turned on. I'll get someone to check and come back with an official response.

[Rb]

Sounds like the permissions just haven't been turned on. I'll get someone to check and come back with an official response.

Apparently it wasn't intentional. Expect that to be fixed tomorrow hopefully

[T-Bag]

good work!

[Blue Nose Bear]

where's the bugs forum?

Edit : Got it, thanks Rik.

[JordanC]

Putting the whole issue of why it was done aside...

I'm not a big fan of the new setup only because it adds too many layers for visitors to find information. In a utopia, everyone would only post in the proper section for their topic, but this is usually not the way it works out in reality. Sub-forums are typically not looked at often enough and eventually there is a "bleed" of threads that end up right back in the central locale for discussion.

If there's going to be dividers like this, I'd rather have them ALL be top-level forums - even if it's a bulky list of 10-15 on one page - then make users have to click multiple times to find the proper place to be.

[Spinsaweb]

Kind of agree with Jordan - The stand out thing for me is that Interested in FML? Is a very barren place

For starters there should be a Sticky with - What is FML !

Add to that all the posts from Which Gameword Should I Join? No point having that as a seperate forum as it's the biggest connection between the new user and the existing community - so all those type of threads should be on show instantly (just make sure there's at least one for each world ).

Having those in the main new user forum will also ensure a degree of new activity, which is important for attracting interest. One area that will suffer from such a barren forum is many people will be reluctant to start a thread.

The activity in the old general forum was a good advert for the game, even if some of those threads weren't.

[Bertie BG]

Kind of agree with Jordan - The stand out thing for me is that Interested in FML? Is a very barren place

For starters there should be a Sticky with - What is FML !

Add to that all the posts from Which Gameword Should I Join? No point having that as a seperate forum as it's the biggest connection between the new user and the existing community - so all those type of threads should be on show instantly (just make sure there's at least one for each world ).

Having those in the main new user forum will also ensure a degree of new activity, which is important for attracting interest. One area that will suffer from such a barren forum is many people will be reluctant to start a thread.

The activity in the old general forum was a good advert for the game, even if some of those threads weren't.

What is Football Manager Live? and some other threads along those lines are something that I'm definitely planning on getting up there over the next few days.

I've taken on board all your feedback and of course will take it into account when we review this decision

[Kriss]

As somebody already suggested it would help if we were more ruthless in merging similar threads, I know that's not as simple as it sounds but I'll certainly put some effort into that and see how it turns out.

I agree there's something missing now at first glance but let's do one step at a time from here.

[frosdick007]

hi there i am sign in with my fml log in but can not get to geneal diss. can someone help please are there now hidden if so where.

[GuitarMan]

Its under FML Subscriber Discussion, General Discussion is no more

[frosdick007]

cheers mate

[Rb]

Apparently it wasn't intentional. Expect that to be fixed tomorrow hopefully

This is apparently now fixed. Please let us know in here if it you still have issues.

[Abz Khan]

Help I can't enter the FML General Forums I was a active poster aswell

[si evans]

Help I can't enter the FML General Forums I was a active poster aswell

Based on your signature, you only have Beta teams? If so then I doubt that is regarded as being a full subscriber & you will only have access to the public & Beta forums.

[Rb]

Help I can't enter the FML General Forums I was a active poster aswell

Let me try and contact someone in the know

Edit : give it until mid day tomorrow, if something hasn't happened post again.

[Abz Khan]

Let me try and contact someone in the know

You legend Rob

[irishguy]

I always found it useful to look at the current manager's posts every so often as a way of gauging whether or not FML was progressing the way I (as a possible subscriber) wanted, or to see what the general level of happiness was for those already subscribed

Now it seems like it more of a shot in the dark then ever as to whether or not it's worth subscribing which isn't really a good thing in my opinion.

[boroboy87]

Is there anyway I can get permission for this e-mail as I'm signed up to FML on a different one?

[crkian]

Rite how do I find the general forum

[Bertie BG]

General Forum is now Subscribers Forum, which you should be able to see if you are signed in using the same account you use to play FML

[crkian]

Found them now, just wasn't looking

[Abz Khan]

General Forum is now Subscribers Forum, which you should be able to see if you are signed in using the same account you use to play FML

Bertie, I cannot access the General Forums or Suscribers Forums as they are called now. I was a regular poster there aswell I only play Beta but always go on the General Forums. Can you give me special permision to access the Suscribers Forum. i.e General Forums

Thanks

Abz

[Bertie BG]

Bertie, I cannot access the General Forums or Suscribers Forums as they are called now. I was a regular poster there aswell I only play Beta but always go on the General Forums. Can you give me special permision to access the Suscribers Forum. i.e General Forums

Thanks

Abz

I can't do that myself, but your case has been passed on to the guys who can. Hopefully this will be able to be sorted

[Abz Khan]

Thanks alot Bertie

[Abz Khan]

Any news yet Bertie?

[irishguy]

Without the other forum as a guide as to what's happening on FML right now I'd again say the chances of me subscribing have pretty much ended. I play the beta version but pretty much gave up as there's barely more than 6 managers online at a time in that which is hardly a motivation to continue on.

[T-Bag]

Seems to have pretty much killed the forum anyway, it's dead now for some reason.

[si evans]

Was thinking earlier that they seem a lot quieter. Hopefully some of that will just be due to people getting used to the new layout but have to wait & see I guess.

[Rb]

I've been monitoring this for a while. The first couple of days after it it did go much quieter in terms of amount of people viewing.

It has been increasing day in day out since then though, we're not yet up to what it used to be but it does seem to be improving somewhat, so I'm more than happy to wait and see from that perspective

[ianw31]

...obviously not. Sorry guys but what used to be something I would check into every day has now become less user-friendly and the suspicions that this was done to 'hide' negative posts must abound
Just like some of the decisions made with the product over the last year, a little more thought would seem to have been needed - shame ... or is this just setting the base for the overdue marketing push and the overhaul of less-than-half-full GW's ... please let it be so!!!

[durera (beta)]

I can't believe that we've still got this oddball structure to the forums. It does make me wonder who makes these decisions and how exactly they got into a position to do so in the first place -- this isn't hindsight either, it's just common sense and the blindingly obvious

Tell me: What have "Tactical Tips and Hints" or "Player Stories" got to do with "Interested in FML?" in the slightest?

It's not rocket science, & it's just so frustrating watching bad management because I want FML to succeed -- it's that same feeling I get everytime I see Lucas has been picked in the Liverpool starting XI -- why do you do it to me?

1. FML Official Announcements -- Same as

2. FML Developer Digest -- Handy reference to see all the posts made by developers across the forums you have access to.

3. General Discusssion (moderation should mainly focus on merging threads and/or moving them to a more relavent forum)

4. Player Help No threads in top level forum, just a container for the subforms :: (heavy moderation -- keep these sections clean, concise and usable, avoid heavy use of stickies which shouldn't be needed if moderated well)
4.1 Which Gameworld Should I Join? -- Don't let this be used for the useless "our GW is great" threads, make sure it's full of useful information to help new subscribers decide the right GW for them, then perhaps they might stick around. Detail the size of GWs, the breakdown of their FAs etc. All information that SI should be able to pull out of FML wth little effort. Get people putting useful information about their GW in here, beyond the pointless claims of "we're the best" etc
4.2 Tactical Tips and Hints
4.4 Other Player Guides -- Club Infrastructure, Transfer Strategies, Skill Planning etc.

5. FML Community -- No threads in top level forum, just a container for the subforms :: (heavy moderation -- keep these sections clean, concise and usable, avoid heavy use of stickies which shouldn't be needed if moderated well)
5.1. FML Stories -- "Good player picks" isn't really very FML imo and has no place here
5.2. FML Community projects -- Advertise & discuss your community project here
5.3. Manager Profile Pages
5.4. Opinion Polls & Votes

6. Gameworld Discussion -- No threads in top level forum, just a container for the subforms :: Chat, rant, advertise your gameworld to other managers here (less moderation, let the gameworld forums take on a character of their own represenative of the GW -- for better and for worse
6.1 Altobelli -- 1 Sticky thread in each section "Why join this GW?", these forums will be useful to new subscribers as it'll become pretty clear which have an active forum community and which ... don't. I'd certainly favour a GW with a community that is active on the forums over one that is not.
6.2 ... 6.34 Zola

7. Beta Tester Discussion

I can't remember what subforums are in the general discussion right now because someone thought it was a good idea that they aren't publicly readable, but I'm sure they can fit into a logical, common-sense-friendly structure like the above too. Tell you what, just give me the admin password and I'll sort it all out during my lunchbreak

Hmm, I wonder if I can guess it ...
username: SportsInteractiveAdmin
password: premierManagerWasRubbish

[Cliffarsenal]

I keep confusing subscriber discussion and community discussion and going to the wrong section by accident.

[Khaizarana]

Can we post gameworld advertisements in the general discussion forum or just the which gw should i join forum?