A blog about the data we collect, and how we use it.

[Miles Jacobson]

Now onto a subject a bit more controversial and emotive. Data capture.

Most things that you do nowadays, certainly in the UK, involves some kind of data capture.

Whether it be voting details per household, taxes, the health service, credit cards, loyalty schemes, your car, speed cameras, CCTV, a fishing license, the internet, email, your season ticket, buying tickets for a gig with a credit card, iTunes, forums, any online application, Xbox Live, Playstation network (I could go on for hours, so will stop now!) some sort of data is collected.

Some companies just use this information for data capture and collection. Others use it to email their customers. I suspect some use it for “dodgy” means.

We use the data to help us develop our games, and use the information to help us make decisions in a more informed manner.

There are 3 types of data collected by FM09. What I’m going to write about here is what info is actually collected, and how we use this information.

The first is the in game advertising in the game. As you know, the ad hoardings around the side of the pitch have changed a few times during the cycle of the game as advertisers have come to us with campaigns that they believe will appeal to our customers. Sometimes we agree and approve them, others we don’t, and reject them.

For our partner in advertising (IGA) to be able to get people interested in advertising in the game, they collect data on how long people playing the game for see the adverts. All that is recorded is the country information from an IP address (so that they know which country the person is in) and how long they’ve viewed an ad hoarding for (in other words, how long they’ve been watching the 2d or 3d match engine). They don’t know who you are, or where you are apart from country, and certainly helps us and them target campaigns, as advertisers don’t tend to do global campaigns, but do them per country.

Next up is STEAM. For those who installed the game using this system (for which you received automatic updates and the ability to play a game on any computer above minimum spec with no need to carry the DVD around with you) the only stats that they have collected and provided to me are stats on how many minutes people have played the game for and the amount of people playing the game via this system split down in total and per month.

This is how we got the stat used previously that the average amount of time spent playing the game per user was 240 hours, although this has gone up since those figures were provided. What was also really interesting with the stats was seeing that the amount of time being played each month hasn’t dropped month by month despite much smaller sales at the latter times of year compared to release, which shows us that there are a lot of people out there really enjoying the game, and playing it for very long periods of time. Stats like these are invaluable to us as you can imagine, as it gives us a proper balance between the highs and lows of different types of feedback that we get from very small samples of people, such as the forums (which tend to be more negative, as people tend to talk mainly when they have a problem, which is human nature) or the people in the pub telling you how much they love the game (although if they really loved it, they’d be at home playing it, rather than in the pub!).

STEAM do also store system stats for all of their users, and these are freely available for anyone to look at on their website. However, this information isn’t much use to us, as it shows a cross section of the PC gaming market itself, rather than the FM PC gaming population, which tend to have lower specs than the market as a whole.

However, those kinds of stats are very useful to us for our own game when we’re going through the decision making process on the features we’re going to work on, particularly if there will be a hardware requirement from it, and this is where one of Uniloc’s systems has actually been very good for us.

This system is pretty separate from their copy protection and authentication system, and collects information about your computer hardware specification. It doesn’t ask for, or store, any personal information at all – just information about the computer that is being used’s processor, graphics card, default screen resolution for playing the game in, OS language and operating system.

As an example of how this information is useful to us, and what it’s used for – there have been a couple of posts on the forums recently asking why the minimum resolution for the game hasn’t changed to a higher resolution, seeing as all new computers being sold have the option for a higher resolution, or quoting STEAM stats. We’d even looked at it ourselves when we were working on the new interface and saying how it would be a lot easier to design if we had a new default of 1280 x 800 instead.

However, when I then get a report done on the stats for people playing FM09, I can see that 32.94% of people play the game in 1024 x 768 and that makes the decision pretty easy, hence the minimum resolution has stayed the same.

I really wish we’d had these stats before we launched 3d (FM2009 was the first time we’ve had stats like this), as we could have been much better prepared graphics card wise, and done a lot more compatibility testing before hand. The most used graphics card whilst playing the game only has 3.74% of users and the breadth of cards used was way bigger than we had imagined. – this time SEGA are ensuring that a lot more compatibility testing is performed on a much wider variation of graphics cards to try and ensure that we don’t have the same problems as we had last year, where some people had to download a huge file to get the game up and running, even in 2d.

With FM2010, we plan to still be able to utilise each of these systems. It doesn’t matter what the copy protection decision from SEGA ends up being, as the Uniloc stats system is separate to their protection solution, so we can still utilise it, alongside a new system that we’ll be using to get some stats on certain areas of the game, and whether those areas are being used or not. If we’re able to see what areas of the game are proving popular, and which areas are ignored, it makes it a lot easier for us to make informed decisions and what areas need improvement or not, over and beyond that of the pubs and forums.

[Super Bladesman]

Interesting stuff!

[javier_83]

sigames spy us

you can ask us for information jejeje

[Rhinocerous]

Super interesting read, thanks.

[Chris Waddle]

I'd like to say many thanks for being so open an honest about what systems you are using an incorporating. There aren't many publishers that would be this open.

Whilst I do applaud your honesty, I won't buy the game. As long as you incorporate these systems into the game without giving me the option of disabling them, or better still the option not to even install them, I won't buy the game.

Yes, I can set up my firewall etc, to prevent this type of data collection, but that's saying that it's ok to build this stuff into the game.

If you want the info, send me a form, I'll fill it in and send it back. I want to control what is collected and what is sent. I do not want remote data collection. Whilst you may use it in a way that you feel is acceptable, I don't feel it is.

Why oh why make it compulsory? Give me the option and I will buy the game if I can say no, I don't want it installed. Is it so, so important to you to make it compulsory and lose sales?

Oh well, it appears that I am destined never to play FM beyond the 08 version.

[damienroden]

Chris, there isn't anything they collect that could damage you in anyway. Do you not use any of the service he mentioned in his first few lines?

[Miles Jacobson]

I'd like to say many thanks for being so open an honest about what systems you are using an incorporating. There aren't many publishers that would be this open.

Whilst I do applaud your honesty, I won't buy the game. As long as you incorporate these systems into the game without giving me the option of disabling them, or better still the option not to even install them, I won't buy the game.

Yes, I can set up my firewall etc, to prevent this type of data collection, but that's saying that it's ok to build this stuff into the game.

If you want the info, send me a form, I'll fill it in and send it back. I want to control what is collected and what is sent. I do not want remote data collection. Whilst you may use it in a way that you feel is acceptable, I don't feel it is.

Why oh why make it compulsory? Give me the option and I will buy the game if I can say no, I don't want it installed. Is it so, so important to you to make it compulsory and lose sales?

Oh well, it appears that I am destined never to play FM beyond the 08 version.

Obviously, that's your decision and opinion, and I have to accept that even if it does make me sad.

The stats are something new that we started with last year and they make a massive positive difference to us, we have no plans on taking them out. As they are part of the game, having an opt in or opt out are not an option (advertising hoardings are powered by the IGA software, hence you won't see a Spanish advert in a Conference game).

I personally don't think the info we collect is instruive, and it's a lot less than many websites we all visit regularly. With the stance you have taken there, you probably shouldn't be on this site (or any others that have any kind of advertising) as similar info is collected to decide which ads to serve (ads on websites also tend to be on a country by country basis). Like it or not, it's just the way of the world nowadays.

[SmurfDude]

If you're being honest and not hiding anything then I'm perfectly happy for that information to be collected, as it isn't any more intrusive than what most websites collect by using cookies and tracking your IP to determine where you live. At least I trust SI/SEGA with my IP information more than I do some random website.

[Indi75]

Thank's Miles, a truly interesting read.

Personally I'm with Smurfdude on the subject. I've nothing to hide, and the info taken and used is no more intrusive, if not less intrusive, than that taken and shared by many websites and retailers.

In light of some of the vitriol regarding copy-protection that's been thrown SI's way of late, it's intersting to see that the choice is ultimately that of SEGA rather than SI. Perhaps this year the pandemonium might be kept to a minimum.

It'd be very interesting in some of the hardware stats could be shared with the community - might be useful for those building or buying a new machine with FM in mind. As you say, FM users oft have a lower spec than the average PC gaming community so an idea of what the community is using would be most informative.

[baker.simon]

You know, i thought that was Miles i saw hiding in the bushes in my garden with his binoculars, i shall close my curtains from now on

Honestly, as long as it helps to develop the game i couldnt give a rats whats collected about me. Its not like im up to anything dodgy...... apart from my panda smuggling ring but shhh, keep that quiet

[evilmatt]

To play devil's advocate for a moment...

Someone remind me, is 1024x768 the default resolution? If so, I wonder if that many people are using it simply because they don't know/care to increase it, as opposed to because they can't? I would say that the stats on the video cards being used would be a better lead on what minimum resolution should be chosen, to be honest. Although I imagine this would lead to the same decision anyway!

My one wish for FM10 would be an optional widescreen skin to add a little more info on screens and space things nicer

[Miles Jacobson]

It'd be very interesting in some of the hardware stats could be shared with the community - might be useful for those building or buying a new machine with FM in mind. As you say, FM users oft have a lower spec than the average PC gaming community so an idea of what the community is using would be most informative.

I think those looking to buy or build a new machine should always go for the best spec that they can afford - there are multi-core benefits to FM, good graphics cards benefits for FM, benefits with faster harddrives, and RAM amount and speed, so the specs that most users have wouldn't really be a good benchmark!

[kevgaleuk]

I think those looking to buy or build a new machine should always go for the best spec that they can afford - there are multi-core benefits to FM, good graphics cards benefits for FM, benefits with faster harddrives, and RAM amount and speed, so the specs that most users have wouldn't really be a good benchmark!

I do find some of the anti data capture posts amusing; you could guarantee when reading the blog there was going to be a post saying they wouldn't buy the game - I bet you could have said you don't capture any info and the pre-programmed response would have been the same.

Yes its a sensitive issue, yes everyone has an opinion but SI are more open than any other company I have come across and I work with data day in day out for a big insurance company.

On the other topic around PC spec for the game I wonder whether Miles or someone at SI can say what spec a PC would allow the game to fly at full capacity? we all know minimum and recommended specs never tell the whole story and I appreciate SI may not be able to answer specifically for fear of putting off those with specs lower than ideal?!?!

[Miles Jacobson]

Honestly, as long as it helps to develop the game i couldnt give a rats whats collected about me. Its not like im up to anything dodgy...... apart from my panda smuggling ring but shhh, keep that quiet

I could do with borrowing a panda for a day or 2 - have a massive bamboo plant in the garden that could do with a large trim.

[Tejaswi]

I know it's a potentially sensitive subject, but how much of this data, IP addresses in particular will you use for anti-piracy efforts?

( IP Address in particular gives more than just the country, there's been a lot of debate about how IP address uniquely identifying a user - Read: http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/07/...iable?from=rss )

[Miles Jacobson]

I know it's a potentially sensitive subject, but how much of this data (IP Address in particular gives more than just the country) will you use for anti-piracy efforts?

I don't understand the question - can you be more specific or give an example of what you mean?

[Herter]

Again a superb post - As a software-engineering student I think its a great way to get to peek into a software-house, even one like SI (p.s. do you have a job opening in, say 2 years? )

As for not buying the game because of this data gathering.. well then you should sell you iPod, drop your internet subscription, sell your mobile phone etcetc.. just about ALL things you use daily that are capable of sending information back, ARE sending information back to headquarters.. non-personal info only though

[Herter]

I don't understand the question - can you be more specific or give an example of what you mean?

I guess what he means is will you use the IP address to track down people using pirated FM games..

[leedsfan88]

Very interesting read and I also enjoyed the previous post about the process at which decisions are reached in the FM offices.

But in terms of information gathering, i don't mind the games getting information about how i game or how my computer runs, as these can only aid in the betterment of the game. And for you people who are against the gathering of information, you shouldn't be using the internet as most sites will gather and store an awful lot more information than we'd ever be comfortable with.

We i've send what i wanted, can't wait for more blogs keep them coming

[baker.simon]

I guess what he means is will you use the IP address to track down people using pirated FM games..

Wouldnt that only work if pirated games were registerd and activated using the DRM though? I dont think that any pirated games would be registered TBH.

[Miles Jacobson]

I guess what he means is will you use the IP address to track down people using pirated FM games..

The option is there for SEGA to do that if they wanted to - it wouldn't be something we'd be doing as a developer.

[earmack]

Data collection is a breach of our rights to privacy but it goes hand in hand with using the internet so its not exactly a suprise that you've gone down this road.

edit: the data being collected is absolutely acceptable to me, its not an issue that will stop me purchasing FM but I am wary of certain unscrupulous companies *cough EA cough* who are just as likely to install rootware as a game on your computer (meaning I will not buy any EA game that communicates over the internet).

I think SI's biggest job with the release of FM10 will be making sure activation issues are resolved.

[swisso]

If in-game advertising helps to generate revenue for SI, which in turn is ploughed in game development, then i've no objection with targetted advertising based on country of origin. The same for the technical specs of the users' system; no harm done if it can aid the development of FM.

As long as we don't see a situation where it mirrors Phorm, or we see a specific regional/local advertising campaign like those pesky pop-ups on the web which can trace the IP down to the nearest town/city then i'm happy to keep on buying FM. I don't particulary want to see an advert for Delta Taxi's in Liverpool while i'm playing an FA Cup final

[Shinwow]

32.94%! That figure is much bigger than I expected. Pretty much any monitor produced in the last few years has a native resolution above that I thought. Must be that people have their monitor on a lower than native resolution, or have older monitors or laptops. I presume if the game is being played in windowed mode it still counts and records the total desktop resolution rather than the windowed game resolution?

[Jason24]

If you turn your internet off when you play the game, would any data still be collected and sent? Just wondering if this could be a solution to those who are unhappy about data collection in the game.

[Miles Jacobson]

If you turn your internet off when you play the game, would any data still be collected and sent? Just wondering if this could be a solution to those who are unhappy about data collection in the game.

Yes - but as has been pointed out above by others, if people are unhappy about the data collection, they likely shouldn't be online anyway

Wouldnt that only work if pirated games were registerd and activated using the DRM though?

No.

[mseel82]

Miles,

Thanks for this insight into how you collect and use data, i think it doesn't suprise any one how or why you do this. Pretty much every game does it now and i can see why this will help in future versions of he game. Being able to tell how many people play the news conferences or how many people ignore training ect would help you guys develop the game further.

Just a quick question on piracy, you did say that you were hoping to release the figures with regard to having pirate versions of the game. Will you still be able to do this and if so any idea when?? I think the figures would be very interesting, especially when we hear today that ISP's may be told to disconnect people for downloading illegal games via P2P file sharing.

Keep up the good work.

[Indi75]

I think those looking to buy or build a new machine should always go for the best spec that they can afford - there are multi-core benefits to FM, good graphics cards benefits for FM, benefits with faster harddrives, and RAM amount and speed, so the specs that most users have wouldn't really be a good benchmark!

I wasn't clear. What I'm getting at is that the availability of the data would allow people to see the high end specs and aim for similar builds.

There's a lot of high end hardware out there and it's often useful to see what others are running at the high end in order to plan a build or purchase.

Would be nice if our profile's on our posts had a drop down like many computing/hardware forums where you can see each others systems.

[Miles Jacobson]

Just a quick question on piracy, you did say that you were hoping to release the figures with regard to having pirate versions of the game. Will you still be able to do this and if so any idea when?? I think the figures would be very interesting, especially when we hear today that ISP's may be told to disconnect people for downloading illegal games via P2P file sharing.

Keep up the good work.

From the blog about how we go about deciding new features.

"There are going to be a few blogs this week (depending on whether some of them get permission to be posted or not!)"

[mseel82]

From the blog about how we go about deciding new features.

"There are going to be a few blogs this week (depending on whether some of them get permission to be posted or not!)"

Well lets hope you get permission cause this is one that i am very interested in reading.

[William Hall]

I quite like this data collection tbh especially about the graphics card as I couldn't play FM09 due to graphics problems

[Chris Waddle]

Obviously, that's your decision and opinion, and I have to accept that even if it does make me sad.

The stats are something new that we started with last year and they make a massive positive difference to us, we have no plans on taking them out. As they are part of the game, having an opt in or opt out are not an option (advertising hoardings are powered by the IGA software, hence you won't see a Spanish advert in a Conference game).

I personally don't think the info we collect is instruive, and it's a lot less than many websites we all visit regularly. With the stance you have taken there, you probably shouldn't be on this site (or any others that have any kind of advertising) as similar info is collected to decide which ads to serve (ads on websites also tend to be on a country by country basis). Like it or not, it's just the way of the world nowadays.

I have no problem with you collecting stats, I have a problem in that I have no say in the fact. If I buy the game you will, against my wishes, collect stats. In the street I can walk by someone collecting stats, you do not give me an option. It is a free world and it should be my choice as to whether I decide to provide information or not. It is not right for you to just take that info. As far as I am concerned, what you do is tantermount to theft. I cannot play the game without you stealing this information. I am not giving you permission to collect this information. Sorry, I have just realised, I may have paid for this game, but I cannot install and play it, without accepting that you will steal this information.

For those who think I might have something to hide, I don't. I have paid for every single piece of harware/software on my system. My hobby is building pc's, the one I am using now has cost way more than I care to think about.

I'm not going to hide the fact, I can run IP hide software; I can block just about everything via firewalls etc, when I want to; not because I have something to hide, but because I don't want companies stealing my data. If SI want, they can get my IP from this post. I have nothing to hide. I am just disgusted that they think stealing personal data against my will is acceptable.

Be honest, how many of you out there would appreciate people just walking into your house and watching you on a 24/7 basis? If it happened you'd call the police and get them arrested; at least thrown out. The intruders might say that what they are doing is just collecting data on how you live your life so that they can improve it for the future. Why should it be any different for my pc? It's mine! I don't wan't people invading it without my permission. Just because they can, it doesn't make it right.

Since when has it become acceptable for personal information to be stolen? What you are doing is just one step away from say, stealing all of my on-line banking details (should I be so stupid to do that).

If this is the way of pc gaming, then fine, I'll go forever without buying another game. I do not advocate ever, and have never downloaded a 'cracked' version of a game. The truth is, if game companies continue to persue this line of thought, I might. If I could consider it, then many thousands more will.

Thanks for the great games of the past. As for your new one's, go shove 'em.

[Lucho]

I have no problem with you collecting stats, I have a problem in that I have no say in the fact. If I buy the game you will, against my wishes, collect stats. In the street I can walk by someone collecting stats, you do not give me an option. It is a free world and it should be my choice as to whether I decide to provide information or not. It is not right for you to just take that info. As far as I am concerned, what you do is tantermount to theft. I cannot play the game without you stealing this information. I am not giving you permission to collect this information. Sorry, I have just realised, I may have paid for this game, but I cannot install and play it, without accepting that you will steal this information.

For those who think I might have something to hide, I don't. I have paid for every single piece of harware/software on my system. My hobby is building pc's, the one I am using now has cost way more than I care to think about.

I'm not going to hide the fact, I can run IP hide software; I can block just about everything via firewalls etc, when I want to; not because I have something to hide, but because I don't want companies stealing my data. If SI want, they can get my IP from this post. I have nothing to hide. I am just disgusted that they think stealing personal data against my will is acceptable.

Be honest, how many of you out there would appreciate people just walking into your house and watching you on a 24/7 basis? If it happened you'd call the police and get them arrested; at least thrown out. The intruders might say that what they are doing is just collecting data on how you live your life so that they can improve it for the future. Why should it be any different for my pc? It's mine! I don't wan't people invading it without my permission. Just because they can, it doesn't make it right.

Since when has it become acceptable for personal information to be stolen? What you are doing is just one step away from say, stealing all of my on-line banking details (should I be so stupid to do that).

If this is the way of pc gaming, then fine, I'll go forever without buying another game. I do not advocate ever, and have never downloaded a 'cracked' version of a game. The truth is, if game companies continue to persue this line of thought, I might. If I could consider it, then many thousands more will.

Thanks for the great games of the past. As for your new one's, go shove 'em.

I understand your idea about privacy (I'd be so happy if telemarketers stopped calling me), but it's just not the way companies work in the real world. Everything you do online gets tracked, like it or not. The amount of time you spend looking at a web page, your email is searched for keywords that make relevant ads instantly appear, etc...

I really don't see how it affects you in practice (besides theory) if Steam knows the amount of RAM in your computer. Does it really make such a difference? I mean, the phone company also knows how much and when you use your phone...

Bottom line is, I believe that not playing FM just so someone won't know how much you play is not such a good trade-off.

[Celtic_1967]

I have no problem with you collecting stats, I have a problem in that I have no say in the fact. If I buy the game you will, against my wishes, collect stats. In the street I can walk by someone collecting stats, you do not give me an option. It is a free world and it should be my choice as to whether I decide to provide information or not. It is not right for you to just take that info. As far as I am concerned, what you do is tantermount to theft. I cannot play the game without you stealing this information. I am not giving you permission to collect this information. Sorry, I have just realised, I may have paid for this game, but I cannot install and play it, without accepting that you will steal this information.

For those who think I might have something to hide, I don't. I have paid for every single piece of harware/software on my system. My hobby is building pc's, the one I am using now has cost way more than I care to think about.

I'm not going to hide the fact, I can run IP hide software; I can block just about everything via firewalls etc, when I want to; not because I have something to hide, but because I don't want companies stealing my data. If SI want, they can get my IP from this post. I have nothing to hide. I am just disgusted that they think stealing personal data against my will is acceptable.

Be honest, how many of you out there would appreciate people just walking into your house and watching you on a 24/7 basis? If it happened you'd call the police and get them arrested; at least thrown out. The intruders might say that what they are doing is just collecting data on how you live your life so that they can improve it for the future. Why should it be any different for my pc? It's mine! I don't wan't people invading it without my permission. Just because they can, it doesn't make it right.

Since when has it become acceptable for personal information to be stolen? What you are doing is just one step away from say, stealing all of my on-line banking details (should I be so stupid to do that).

If this is the way of pc gaming, then fine, I'll go forever without buying another game. I do not advocate ever, and have never downloaded a 'cracked' version of a game. The truth is, if game companies continue to persue this line of thought, I might. If I could consider it, then many thousands more will.

Thanks for the great games of the past. As for your new one's, go shove 'em.

I fail to understand how someone can take this stance whilst using the internet. Just out of interest do you request a copy of the film for every cctv camera you walk past? They are there to make our lives safer/better or to spy on us depending which side of the fence you fall on. However most people just ignore them and carry on with their lives.

These cctv camera's are 'stealing' info on what we do in our day to day lives and where we go. However I bet you see these as 'part of life'. Is the only reason you object about this info that FM collects for SI because you can? I suspect it is.

I do find the outrage that these things cause hilarious. Everyone is always being watched however you get uppity about a games developer/manufacturer collecting simply because you know it is happening.

What about the 1500 people a day in the UK that have their phone conversations listened to or emails read on the basis of home office requests under anti teror legislation. I'm willing to bet you havent written to the Government about it because you cant be sure it's happening you, there is no way for you to know. However you're prepared to get apoplectic about a computer game because the developer have the courtesy to let us know what they collect and why. It isn't even as if they can pinpoint your name and address from your copy of FM.

IMO all these people who act with outrage at something quite so unimportant need to stop being silly and think this stuff through. It's hardly as if SI are monitoring your playing habits so that they can work out where you live & when you're not at home so they can go round and burgle you.

[Cruzway]

Miles ... To be honest , you shouldnt have post anything ...
You have freaked people out with the data collection methods , there are some people here who dont really know what you talking about , they dont know much about how the web work or computers for that matter . They only thing they see from you post is "collecting my data" ... This will definitely not help you with the sales .
Good luck !!

People who is freaking out , just by posting on this forum , they can collect nearly about the same information !!
If you dont want anyone to collect your data , break your internet cable now!

[Chris Waddle]

I fail to understand how someone can take this stance whilst using the internet. Just out of interest do you request a copy of the film for every cctv camera you walk past? They are there to make our lives safer/better or to spy on us depending which side of the fence you fall on. However most people just ignore them and carry on with their lives.

These cctv camera's are 'stealing' info on what we do in our day to day lives and where we go. However I bet you see these as 'part of life'. Is the only reason you object about this info that FM collects for SI because you can? I suspect it is.

I do find the outrage that these things cause hilarious. Everyone is always being watched however you get uppity about a games developer/manufacturer collecting simply because you know it is happening.

What about the 1500 people a day in the UK that have their phone conversations listened to or emails read on the basis of home office requests under anti teror legislation. I'm willing to bet you havent written to the Government about it because you cant be sure it's happening you, there is no way for you to know. However you're prepared to get apoplectic about a computer game because the developer have the courtesy to let us know what they collect and why. It isn't even as if they can pinpoint your name and address from your copy of FM.

IMO all these people who act with outrage at something quite so unimportant need to stop being silly and think this stuff through. It's hardly as if SI are monitoring your playing habits so that they can work out where you live & when you're not at home so they can go round and burgle you.

CCTV, my choice to walk past it. I don't have to, but I am in my right to ask for it to be deleted; yes they do have to unless they give prior and sufficient notification.

You think it's ok for people to have their conversations to be listened in to? You working for a red top paper? So what you are saying is that by being an honest citizen, playing FM10, I should therefore have my conversations monitored? It's a bloody game, why should I be monitored without my consent?

Yes, SI are monitoring my playing habits, did you not read that, that is exactly what they are doing, via steam or however.

Not saying they can work out where I exactly live, but, should they choose, they could, if they so wished, change the softwatare to determine that. Of course they curently don't, but you sound so inept, that you would install the game even if they did include that software.

[Bjaart]

I think some people need to stop taking themselves so seriously. I personally avoid leaving my e-mail adress at websites or when filling out forms, and I never give out my phone number to anyone except friends. But that is just to keep businesses from bugging me with loads of 'incredible' offers. What data is collected of my habits, computerspecs or whatnot, I couldnt care less about. As long as he kept quiet, I wouldnt mind having Miles sitting behind me taking notes of my every move while playing FM, shopping or browsing the internet if he had any interrest in that.

[Chris Waddle]

I think some people need to stop taking themselves so seriously. I personally avoid leaving my e-mail adress at websites or when filling out forms, and I never give out my phone number to anyone except friends. But that is just to keep businesses from bugging me with loads of 'incredible' offers. What data is collected of my habits, computerspecs or whatnot, I couldnt care less about. As long as he kept quiet, I wouldnt mind having Miles sitting behind me taking notes of my every move while playing FM, shopping or browsing the internet if he had any interrest in that.

Ok, I am finishing now (thank god you all say), but, as you say you never give out the information unless you want to. This game isn't giving you the option, you install the game, you have to give out whatever information it chooses to collect, not what you choose - You have no choice in what information it takes!

I would be quite happy for miles to sit behind me and collect info, should he ask, agree a convenient time etc. I don't just want somebody turning up when they want, taking whatever info they want.

*Edit* If i was given the option of saying yes or no to the data collection I'd say Yes. I am just totally against the situation on not being able to say no.

[nikandros33]

Is it just me or all these "behind scenes" sound weird to others too?

[Lucho]

Ok, I am finishing now (thank god you all say), but, as you say you never give out the information unless you want to. This game isn't giving you the option, you install the game, you have to give out whatever information it chooses to collect, not what you choose - You have no choice in what information it takes!

I would be quite happy for miles to sit behind me and collect info, should he ask, agree a convenient time etc. I don't just want somebody turning up when they want, taking whatever info they want.

*Edit* If i was given the option of saying yes or no to the data collection I'd say Yes. I am just totally against the situation on not being able to say no.

I think you do get the option to avoid the data collection. Bad news is that it means not installing the game....

Just relax and enjoy the game, I'm pretty sure SI doesn't have a world domination scheme based on our game-time stats.

[SFraser]

Obviously, that's your decision and opinion, and I have to accept that even if it does make me sad.

The stats are something new that we started with last year and they make a massive positive difference to us, we have no plans on taking them out. As they are part of the game, having an opt in or opt out are not an option (advertising hoardings are powered by the IGA software, hence you won't see a Spanish advert in a Conference game).

I personally don't think the info we collect is instruive, and it's a lot less than many websites we all visit regularly. With the stance you have taken there, you probably shouldn't be on this site (or any others that have any kind of advertising) as similar info is collected to decide which ads to serve (ads on websites also tend to be on a country by country basis). Like it or not, it's just the way of the world nowadays.

Ho ho a guy that thinks that because we pay his wages he can do whatever he likes with our personal computers.

Do you fancy paying the £100 charge I got for going over my 30GB data transfer limit this month?

Personally I am not bothered about the data you collect but I don't like your attitude here, and I am one of your biggest and most vocal supporters.

Not a smart reply in itself, and then you take into account the activition mess for FM09. Are you hoping for a lashback with FM10?

[Kickballz]

I'm not at all happy with you collecting ANY data from me for any reason unless I have approved it.

This is the main reason why I won't be purchasing any more of your products.

[heron]

There is a reason why there's always an uproar when people find out that Microsoft or Apple are "phoning home" to collect data about the PC the program is installed on. It's a clear invasion of the customer's privacy, especially if he/she has no idea whatsoever that this is done. Why do you think Microsoft specifically asks whetger you want to participate in a "Customer Experience Program"?

It's amazing, given the many different laws from all the countries FM is sold, that your lawyers approved this scheme. But then, there might be a lawsuit still coming from distraught customers.

[Kickballz]

I fail to understand how someone can take this stance whilst using the internet. Just out of interest do you request a copy of the film for every cctv camera you walk past? They are there to make our lives safer/better or to spy on us depending which side of the fence you fall on. However most people just ignore them and carry on with their lives.

These cctv camera's are 'stealing' info on what we do in our day to day lives and where we go. However I bet you see these as 'part of life'. Is the only reason you object about this info that FM collects for SI because you can? I suspect it is.

I do find the outrage that these things cause hilarious. Everyone is always being watched however you get uppity about a games developer/manufacturer collecting simply because you know it is happening.

What about the 1500 people a day in the UK that have their phone conversations listened to or emails read on the basis of home office requests under anti teror legislation. I'm willing to bet you havent written to the Government about it because you cant be sure it's happening you, there is no way for you to know. However you're prepared to get apoplectic about a computer game because the developer have the courtesy to let us know what they collect and why. It isn't even as if they can pinpoint your name and address from your copy of FM.

IMO all these people who act with outrage at something quite so unimportant need to stop being silly and think this stuff through. It's hardly as if SI are monitoring your playing habits so that they can work out where you live & when you're not at home so they can go round and burgle you.

I disagree almost entirely with this post.

You might find it unimportant and 'hilarious' that people value their right to privacy but I certainly don't think it is a laughing matter. I'm not saying that data collection on a game is comparable to CCTV - it was you that raised that straw man, but it is because of people like you that we all have to live in a society where it is 'a part of life' to be watched by CCTV constantly. When will it become too much for you?

[spartans5]

You approve the data collection by installing the game, I don't understand what is so hard about realizing that?

[heron]

You approve the data collection by installing the game, I don't understand what is so hard about realizing that?

The fact that we simply were never told this data was collected when/before we installed the game.

That, and the fact that there isn't a option to disable it!

[heron]

double post

[wwfan]

I suggest everyone outraged by this read literature on the Coercion and Care theories of surveillance, especially some of the work that tries to synthesize the two perspectives. It is incredibly informative about the positives and negatives of such practices and explores the grey area between the diametric black/white perspectives people are taking here. Such actions can never be just one thing or the other, and there are just as many arguments for them as against them. People who have spent a lifetime writing about the subject cannot reconcile how they feel about such practices or weigh up the pros and cons in terms of the social good.

If the option to gather data was optional, SI run the risk of missing out on important development information that benefits the social (i.e. FM players) as many would restrict their access. Thus, slower progress. However, because it is there, people feel their rights to privacy are invaded and feel coerced into giving out information. Result, upset customer base. It is about balancing the right of the individual against the benefit of the social group and is an extremely complex argument that black and white reactive thinking fails to do any justice.

For the record, I'm neither for or against such surveillence techniques per se, but regard some as being benefical and others threatening individual freedoms. In terms of FM, I would like the social group (i.e. us) to benefit from such surveillance and weigh that up against the extremely minor inconveniences it might cause. However, for different techniques in different cases, I'd hold an opposite opinion.

[Raware]

Just out of interest, after installing the CM10 demo, BGS do a similar kind of thing in recording data. However, they do actually give you the option of wanting to or not wanting to 'take part' in their data collection. Something i feel where there must be that option.

[Kickballz]

I suggest everyone outraged by this read literature on the Coercion and Care theories of surveillance, especially some of the work that tries to synthesize the two perspectives. It is incredibly informative about the positives and negatives of such practices and explores the grey area between the diametric black/white perspectives people are taking here. Such actions can never be just one thing or the other, and there are just as many arguments for them as against them. People who have spent a lifetime writing about the subject cannot reconcile how they feel about such practices or weigh up the pros and cons in terms of the social good.

If the option to gather data was optional, SI run the risk of missing out on important development information that benefits the social (i.e. FM players) as many would restrict their access. Thus, slower progress. However, because it is there, people feel their rights to privacy are invaded and feel coerced into giving out information. Result, upset customer base. It is about balancing the right of the individual against the benefit of the social group and is an extremely complex argument that black and white reactive thinking fails to do any justice.

For the record, I'm neither for or against such surveillence techniques per se, but regard some as being benefical and others threatening individual freedoms. In terms of FM, I would like the social group (i.e. us) to benefit from such surveillance and weigh that up against the extremely minor inconveniences it might cause. However, for different techniques in different cases, I'd hold an opposite opinion.

The loaded language you use suggests that you aren't quite as neutral as you make out.

Personally, I'm not outraged either because this kind of thing doesn't surprise me, although I am concerned about where it could potentially lead us if we keep accepting it.

[SFraser]

I suggest everyone outraged by this read literature on the Coercion and Care theories of surveillance, especially some of the work that tries to synthesize the two perspectives. It is incredibly informative about the positives and negatives of such practices and explores the grey area between the diametric black/white perspectives people are taking here. Such actions can never be just one thing or the other, and there are just as many arguments for them as against them. People who have spent a lifetime writing about the subject cannot reconcile how they feel about such practices or weigh up the pros and cons in terms of the social good.

If the option to gather data was optional, SI run the risk of missing out on important development information that benefits the social (i.e. FM players) as many would restrict their access. Thus, slower progress. However, because it is there, people feel their rights to privacy are invaded and feel coerced into giving out information. Result, upset customer base. It is about balancing the right of the individual against the benefit of the social group and is an extremely complex argument that black and white reactive thinking fails to do any justice.

For the record, I'm neither for or against such surveillence techniques per se, but regard some as being benefical and others threatening individual freedoms. In terms of FM, I would like the social group (i.e. us) to benefit from such surveillance and weigh that up against the extremely minor inconveniences it might cause. However, for different techniques in different cases, I'd hold an opposite opinion.

I would advise against suggesting, in the current climate, that users simply have to "suck eggs" and deal with purchased software using their internet connections to transmit information collected from their PC's.

We all have our opinions on these issues but no one likes to have it rubbed into their faces, and most certainly no one likes to be told that there is nothing they can do about it.

"Like it or not, it's just the way of the world nowadays." Really, keeping abreast of current events are we? Hello Spore.

Make a statement like that and expect to be robbed. It's just the way of the world nowadays.

Not clever.

[wwfan]

The loaded language you use suggests that you aren't quite as neutral as you make out.

Personally, I'm not outraged either because this kind of thing doesn't surprise me, although I am concerned about where it could potentially lead us if we keep accepting it.

I'm not tryign to be neutral about FM. I clearly stated that I was leaning in the direction of the social good when talking about FM (i.e. those of us who play the game). In this case, I think the surveillance/data collection is largely benefical and harmless.

I would advise against suggesting, in the current climate, that users simply have to "suck eggs" and deal with purchased software using their internet connections to transmit information collected from their PC's.

We all have our opinions on these issues but no one likes to have it rubbed into their faces, and most certainly no one likes to be told that there is nothing they can do about it.

"Like it or not, it's just the way of the world nowadays." Really, keeping abreast of current events are we? Hello Spore.

Make a statement like that and expect to be robbed. It's just the way of the world nowadays.

Not clever.

I'm not advising anything one way or the other. I'm just arguing that black/white reactions only take half the argument into account. I'm simply suggesting that people should try to be more informed about the debate, and it is a huge one, before rushing to conclusions. If they conclude they won't buy the game, so be it. If enough people conclude so, then I'm sure it will be the last time FM includes such techniques. As stated above, I lean towards acceptance in this case as, for purely selfish reasons, I want a better FM. I would imagine this is a common motivation of these forums. However, if you believe rights to data privacy, however irrelevant or minor the invasion might be, to outwiegh the previous motivation, then you are fully within your rights to do so.

[Elrithral]

The biggest bandwagon in SI forums history?

I really couldn't care less whether SI collect data or not. Here's an idea for all those naysayers, buy the game on disc and then play it without being connected to the internet, surely that avoids any data collection?

On the ads front. When I installed the game I was asked whether or not I ave FM permission to access the internet and I clicked no, does that mean that they aren't collecting data from me? The ads never change etc.

[Kickballz]

I'm not tryign to be neutral about FM. I clearly stated that I was leaning in the direction of the social good when talking about FM (i.e. those of us who play the game). In this case, I think the surveillance/data collection is largely benefical and harmless.

But not optional?

I don't disagree that it is beneficial to the designers of the game, but the fact that they don't consider the privacy of their customers to be of any importance whatsoever, ie it is not optional, is unacceptably arrogant in my opinion.

[wwfan]

By doign that, they then allow personal interests to outweigh the social good. If everyone turned off the data collection service, SI would not get the information to proactively manage problems, and the post-release forums would be a mass of angry customers (which we've seen before).

I'm not stating any way is perfect, but grey instead of black and white. Assuming arrogance about the customer base has decision really doesn't help.

[Kickballz]

First of all, not everyone is going to turn it off. That should be clear from the comments in this thread, although allowing people to turn it off would make (almost) everyone happy. Also, you are clearly overstating the case that if the minority opted out then the game would suffer. This is unlikely since the majority of fans would be happy to contribute.

[wwfan]

No, I doubt they would. However, it is a possibility.

[kevgaleuk]

First of all, not everyone is going to turn it off. That should be clear from the comments in this thread, although allowing people to turn it off would make (almost) everyone happy. Also, you are clearly overstating the case that if the minority opted out then the game would suffer. This is unlikely since the majority of fans would be happy to contribute.

I guess it all comes down to what people say they'll do and what they'll actually do!

There was a Direct Marketing article I read some years back about the pro's and cons of the marketing opt-in, opt-out box that you will see on every site where personal info is collected. At that time I believe it was optional for companies to include it (pre legislative days) and there was quite a bit of noise about companies collecting personal data (and rightly so given that this data was name address etc - so very very different to what SI are collecting.)

In this article it argued that people should be given the choice and that if given the choice people would opt-in; give the people the option and they will oblige. The fact is that today, on many consumer databases in the UK, opt-out (as is common for all but email) sits at around 80-90%.

If this was translated to SI's domain that would mean that 1, maybe 2 of every 10 customers would allow their info to be used which would make the data collected very insignificant because having read the various posts around technical specs alone I would wager that for every 10 customers there is likely to be 10 different PC/Mac set ups, 10 different usage patterns, 10 different playing styles and so on.

SI have openly said they use the data collected to make decisions; they have said that they wish they'd know the technical issues before 3d came in so its not difficult to see why they need the data. These forums would be very full of complaints about incompatibility and so on were that data not used.

My personal opinion? The only one I have a slight issue with is the IGA (although working in Marketing I understand that it creeps into every facet of people's lives!!!) so I would prefer that to be optional. As for the other 2 so long as my personal details aren't collected (which we are told they aren't) then I am fine with the collection.

There is never going to be agreeance and those who don't like it do have 2 options, accept it or don't buy it. SI have said they need it, the majority seem okay with it so I'd suggest to those who don't like it that they are unlikely to change SI's mind.

[jakobx]

I sure as hell would disable it if there was option available. There is a reason why spyware has a bad reputation.

Sure the information gathered is helpful for marketers and developers but that doesnt mean they have a right to invade our privacy. The game should ask you if you wish to send this information not just steal it without asking. Besides is this even legal? I would think you would need explicit consent from the user to do that.

Its a pain in the ass to set up a firewall just because games have become so invasive. What is even sadder is seeing how many people dont even care about privacy.

[Elrithral]

What is even sadder is seeing how many people dont even care about privacy.

Why's that?

[Kickballz]

I guess it all comes down to what people say they'll do and what they'll actually do!

There was a Direct Marketing article I read some years back about the pro's and cons of the marketing opt-in, opt-out box that you will see on every site where personal info is collected. At that time I believe it was optional for companies to include it (pre legislative days) and there was quite a bit of noise about companies collecting personal data (and rightly so given that this data was name address etc - so very very different to what SI are collecting.)

In this article it argued that people should be given the choice and that if given the choice people would opt-in; give the people the option and they will oblige. The fact is that today, on many consumer databases in the UK, opt-out (as is common for all but email) sits at around 80-90%.

If this was translated to SI's domain that would mean that 1, maybe 2 of every 10 customers would allow their info to be used which would make the data collected very insignificant because having read the various posts around technical specs alone I would wager that for every 10 customers there is likely to be 10 different PC/Mac set ups, 10 different usage patterns, 10 different playing styles and so on.

SI have openly said they use the data collected to make decisions; they have said that they wish they'd know the technical issues before 3d came in so its not difficult to see why they need the data. These forums would be very full of complaints about incompatibility and so on were that data not used.

My personal opinion? The only one I have a slight issue with is the IGA (although working in Marketing I understand that it creeps into every facet of people's lives!!!) so I would prefer that to be optional. As for the other 2 so long as my personal details aren't collected (which we are told they aren't) then I am fine with the collection.

There is never going to be agreeance and those who don't like it do have 2 options, accept it or don't buy it. SI have said they need it, the majority seem okay with it so I'd suggest to those who don't like it that they are unlikely to change SI's mind.

I can't disagree with anything you have said.

I would say that if that is how the customers wants it then the company should accept it. If only 1 in 10 want to have their data stolen then the company should accept it and deal with it. All it means is 9 out of 10 people DON'T want what the company wants. SI should pay attention.

[Miles Jacobson]

Ho ho a guy that thinks that because we pay his wages he can do whatever he likes with our personal computers.

Do you fancy paying the £100 charge I got for going over my 30GB data transfer limit this month?

Personally I am not bothered about the data you collect but I don't like your attitude here, and I am one of your biggest and most vocal supporters.

I'm not sure which part of what I said there annoyed you SFraser, but I apologise if I have done so - some people had askd for clarification on some points in the EULA that came with FM09 on what data was collected (to install the game you have to accept the EULA), so I'm just answering those questions honestly and openly.

[MSCCG]

Is the game going to be cheaper because of the ads etc? The ads use bandwidth to download, so in effect we would be paying extra.

I also do not like compulsory data collection. If it is optional there probably will be a sampling error, but that is no reason to force us into something we might not want to do. It's really not about having anything to hide, it's about whether we wish to hide it.

[Miles Jacobson]

I'm not at all happy with you collecting ANY data from me for any reason unless I have approved it.

This is the main reason why I won't be purchasing any more of your products.

As with the other customer above with a similar issue, that makes me sad. Also as I said above, it's a very emotive subject, and I understand that, and am trying to be as emotionless when discussing it!

I do feel though that you are punishing us for our honesty on this situation.

For a start, you do agree for the data to be collected by installing the game. The licensing agreement for the game deals with the data capture elements, as does the licensing agreement for STEAM, and IGA.

Also, as has been pointed out on this thread much more eloquently than I can, this kind of collection happens all over the world, without permission, without licensing agreements, with no agreement over what it can be used for. By going to any website, IP information is taken and stored at a much lower level than we do. Not just the site themselves, but 3rd party ranking services and some search engine facilities too.

There is a reason why there's always an uproar when people find out that Microsoft or Apple are "phoning home" to collect data about the PC the program is installed on. It's a clear invasion of the customer's privacy, especially if he/she has no idea whatsoever that this is done. Why do you think Microsoft specifically asks whetger you want to participate in a "Customer Experience Program"?

It's amazing, given the many different laws from all the countries FM is sold, that your lawyers approved this scheme. But then, there might be a lawsuit still coming from distraught customers.

Heron - please see the point above about the end user licensing agreement. When you install the game, you are accepting the terms and conditions. What I'm doing on this thread is giving you more information on exactly what is collected, how it is used, and how unintrusive it is.

[Elrithral]

Miles, I asked earlier if playing the game whilst not conencted to the internet or instructing your firewall to block the game accessing the internet avoids data transfer, am I right?

Does it stop the ads changing, as a result it doesn't affect bandwidth?

[Miles Jacobson]

I sure as hell would disable it if there was option available. There is a reason why spyware has a bad reputation.

None of what we, IGA, STEAM or Uniloc do is spyware.

IGA were accussed of it once - you can see their response at http://uk.gamespot.com/news/6160062.html

[Miles Jacobson]

Miles, I asked earlier if playing the game whilst not conencted to the internet or instructing your firewall to block the game accessing the internet avoids data transfer, am I right?

Does it stop the ads changing, as a result it doesn't affect bandwidth?

I wouldn't know, as I haven't tried it. I would guess so - if I play offline, I get the default ads.

[Elrithral]

Yes, but if you block FM you also get the default ads, so does that mean that the data can't be transferred? Like I said, when I installed the game I got a prompt from Norton asking whether or not I gave the game permission to access the internet and I selected no, as a result the ads never change and I assume the data isn't sent.

If this is the case, i.e. you can play online and avoid data collection by blocking FM's access, then there's a very simple solution for those who object to it.

[Miles Jacobson]

Is the game going to be cheaper because of the ads etc? The ads use bandwidth to download, so in effect we would be paying extra.

The pricing side of things is nothing to do with me. I would personally love to see a time where advertising can fund games to a point that prices would be reduced, and it's something that is already being seen with the casual game sector and sites like Kongregate. The amount of advertising will have to go up significantly before that becomes reality for "big budget" games though.

One thing we are trying to ensure is that any advertising in game is completely in-situ, meaning that it would only appear where it would do in real life. With the various licenses we have in game, we have to show some of their sponsors in that situation, hence you will have different default advertising in the game depending on which licensed league you are playing in. What I don't personally like is the advert "take overs", where all the ad hoardings are changed in the game, as this is unrealistic, and this is something that I've asked to stop.

[jakobx]

I'm not sure which part of what I said there annoyed you SFraser, but I apologise if I have done so - some people had askd for clarification on some points in the EULA that came with FM09 on what data was collected (to install the game you have to accept the EULA), so I'm just answering those questions honestly and openly.

Just because something is in the EULA doesn't mean its legally binding. Some courts might say its legally binding while some might might say its not, but resorting to legal trickery so you can justify what is basically just stealing users data without their knowledge or consent is not something that a respectable business should do.

What you should do is ask the user whether he wishes to send you the information and explain what kind of information you will gather. I would gladly send you my computer specifications as i have done many times before on steam hardware survey.

[Miles Jacobson]

Yes, but if you block FM you also get the default ads, so does that mean that the data can't be transferred? Like I said, when I installed the game I got a prompt from Norton asking whether or not I gave the game permission to access the internet and I selected no, as a result the ads never change and I assume the data isn't sent.

If this is the case, i.e. you can play online and avoid data collection by blocking FM's access, then there's a very simple solution for those who object to it.

There are lots of simple solutions, and I would suggest that those that do have an issue with it aren't ever looking at the internet without using those solutions, let alone running games!

[jakobx]

If this is the case, i.e. you can play online and avoid data collection by blocking FM's access, then there's a very simple solution for those who object to it.

Installing and configuring third party apps especially firewalls is not exactly a simple solution for a vast majority of users. I am sure 95% of users have no idea how to do that.

A simple solution solution would be clicking no on a dialog box where it ask you if you wish to send data to Sega.

[deggesim]

However, when I then get a report done on the stats for people playing FM09, I can see that 32.94% of people play the game in 1024 x 768 and that makes the decision pretty easy, hence the minimum resolution has stayed the same.

I suppose there is a lot of people unable to change resolution in game options.
This does not mean their monitor is unable to work with higher resolutions.

[Kickballz]

Also, as has been pointed out on this thread much more eloquently than I can, this kind of collection happens all over the world, without permission, without licensing agreements, with no agreement over what it can be used for. By going to any website, IP information is taken and stored at a much lower level than we do. Not just the site themselves, but 3rd party ranking services and some search engine facilities too.

This is exactly the argument that infuriates me.

You are basically saying that because others do it then it must be okay. No! it is not okay. Not okay at all.

I don't like any of the above; I don't like CCTV, I don't like ID cards, I don't like citizen databases, I don't like Phorm, I don't like my children getting chipped...okay, not serious on the last one but you get the idea?

My advice would be to scrap your IGA and DRM and other draconian intentions and try showing your customers a bit of respect.

[Elrithral]

Installing and configuring third party apps especially firewalls is not exactly a simple solution for a vast majority of users. I am sure 95% of users have no idea how to do that.

A simple solution solution would be clicking no on a dialog box where it ask you if you wish to send data to Sega.

Windows firewall does the same thing, there's no need for a third party app.

[weeeman27bob]

When you agree to the Licensing Agreement or Terms and Conditions or what ever it is you agree to, does it say anything about collecting Data?

[philly_flyer10]

I block everything I can with the firewall that shouldnt be sending stuff. Any data being sent should be opt in only.

No one reads the EULA and while your legal team might think its ok, you will lose the respect of customers by spying on them with only a line in a probably 30 page document telling them so. While youve been open with what you collect, its still not good to do it. Look at the backlash of the Gov id card farce. People dont want to be spied on.

This can also screw up the data, the people who block the game are most likely to be "geeks" who have up to date systems and the people who dont have a clue will use lower end systems. Hence why sticking to a low resolution is a bad idea as all the geeks with a w/s monitor wont be reporting back that they are using it.

[Elrithral]

No one reads the EULA

If it's listed in the EULA then tough cookies. If you're signing a contract you should read it and can't retrospectively blame everyone else for your lazyness.

Also, the inference that someone who knows how to block a game is a geek is completely insulting, especially considering it's a matter of clicking "yes" instead of "no". I won't even consider the ID cards comaprison, as that's utter madness.

[philly_flyer10]

If it's listed in the EULA then tough cookies. If you're signing a contract you should read it and can't retrospectively blame everyone else for your lazyness.

EULAs are worthless, they havent been proven enforcable in law because you cant read the contract until you buy the product.

Would you buy a house before you could read the terms of sale?

It doesnt even matter if its legally right or wrong according to the EULA. Its still morally wrong to spy on people by tucking the agreement away where people wont find it. By doing this, SI are using spyware tactics of deceiving the user in order to get the spyware on the computer.

[Miles Jacobson]

A simple solution solution would be clicking no on a dialog box where it ask you if you wish to send data to Sega.

As I mentioned above, the in game advertising stuff is integrated inside the game. We have to do it this way due to the licensed leagues.

This is exactly the argument that infuriates me.

You are basically saying that because others do it then it must be okay. No! it is not okay. Not okay at all.

I don't like any of the above; I don't like CCTV, I don't like ID cards, I don't like citizen databases, I don't like Phorm, I don't like my children getting chipped...okay, not serious on the last one but you get the idea?

My advice would be to scrap your IGA and DRM and other draconian intentions and try showing your customers a bit of respect.

SEGA haven't announced anything about DRM or copy protection for this year, so I'm not really sure how that comes into play on this topic.

As for "respect", if I didn't respect our customers, I wouldn't be here talking to them and being open and honest with them. It is then down to the customer to decide whether they want to play the game or not, but at least I'm giving them the information so that they are able to make an informed decision.

If that decision is not to purchase, whether it be because of what I believe to be uninstrusive data collection, or if they don't like the demo of the game, I think we have shown the utmost respect by being so upfront and giving them the chance to know what is being collected, and a chance to play the finished version of the game before it is released.

[Elrithral]

It doesnt even matter if its legally right or wrong according to the EULA. Its still morally wrong to spy on people by tucking the agreement away where people wont find it. By doing this, SI are using spyware tactics of deceiving the user in order to get the spyware on the computer.

Are you serious?

[philly_flyer10]

I would have to ask the same thing. You think its ok to spy on people?

[philly_flyer10]

If that decision is not to purchase, whether it be because of what I believe to be uninstrusive data collection, or if they don't like the demo of the game, I think we have shown the utmost respect by being so upfront and giving them the chance to know what is being collected, and a chance to play the finished version of the game before it is released.

How could people chose not to purchase FM09 when they werent made aware of the spying until they opened the wrapper, then the shops will not allow the product to be returned.

You should at least allow people to opt in or out of this while still being allowed to play the game.

[Elrithral]

I couldn't care less, as long as it doesn't involve my bank details, me naked or my families personal details. If they want to know what sites I visit, fair enough, I have nothing to hide, wanna know my screen resolution, I couldn't care less. To get your knickers in a twist about information that is only relevant to a computer game is, imo, madness.

I'd understand it if it was transferring all my photos to SI or telling them how much I had in the bank, but it's telling them my bloody screen size and who gives a toss?

[bollekewol]

I would have to ask the same thing. You think its ok to spy on people?

If the people agreed to it when agreeing the terms given before installation and even if those "stolen data" is nothing more than your RAM and how many hours you play the game?
I find cell phones a much bigger and more relevant threat to privacy: at least there they can see where you exactly are at any time while with FM it's only when you play the game..

You have the choice to play the game and allow them to see such worthless things as RAM or time played, or not buying the game and be happy that SI will not know your specs. Although of course while doing grocery shopping you should tell those from all CCTV's before hand you'll be passing by so they can delete you... at which point you have already given up your privacy by telling others you'll be passing there.

[Delvey]

I would have to ask the same thing. You think its ok to spy on people?

I'm not convinced that finding out a computer's location, monitor res and playing time consitutes spying.....its not even connectable to the person, its just numbers in a spreadsheet somewhere.

[philly_flyer10]

You have the choice to play the game and allow them to see such worthless things as RAM or time played, or not buying the game and be happy that SI will not know your specs. Although of course while doing grocery shopping you should tell those from all CCTV's before hand you'll be passing by so they can delete you... at which point you have already given up your privacy by telling others you'll be passing there.

No we didnt have the choice, people who read the EULA were only alerted after they bought the game, the other 99% were only alerted today.

There were no choices. Id have no problem if there was a choice to play the game and you chose to opt in or opt out, everyone would be happy.

[bollekewol]

No we didnt have the choice, people who read the EULA were only alerted after they bought the game, the other 99% were only alerted today.

There were no choices. Id have no problem if there was a choice to play the game and you chose to opt in or opt out, everyone would be happy.

You do not have the choice of returning the game after reading the EULA?

[philly_flyer10]

You do not have the choice of returning the game after reading the EULA?

No, shops wont take back opened games and good luck trying to get a refund on a download because you refused the EULA.

[bollekewol]

No, shops wont take back opened games and good luck trying to get a refund on a download because you refused the EULA.

I can return games to the shop and thanks to very strict internet download quota I never download games.

[Elrithral]

No we didnt have the choice, people who read the EULA were only alerted after they bought the game, the other 99% were only alerted today.

There were no choices. Id have no problem if there was a choice to play the game and you chose to opt in or opt out, everyone would be happy.

You have the choice to block the games access with a firewall, click yes or no, it's not hard.

[philly_flyer10]

I can return games to the shop and thanks to very strict internet download quota I never download games.

Well you are in the minority.

You have the choice to block the games access with a firewall, click yes or no, it's not hard.

It shouldnt have to come to that, that makes SI no better than spyware vendors. Its about duping people into agreeing this, tucking away the agreement in the EULA, not allowing an opt out. Other people are sending info from their computer without their knowledge.

The direction they are going is very, very bad. Spyware games, horrendous DRM. It doesnt make for a good user experience.

[Elrithral]

This is one hell of a bandwagon. It's one hell of a witch-hunt, that's for sure. Comparing spyware, which steals personal information, with transfer of screen resolution, come on!

[Misodoctakleidist]

I block everything I can with the firewall that shouldnt be sending stuff. Any data being sent should be opt in only.

No one reads the EULA and while your legal team might think its ok, you will lose the respect of customers by spying on them with only a line in a probably 30 page document telling them so. While youve been open with what you collect, its still not good to do it. Look at the backlash of the Gov id card farce. People dont want to be spied on.

This can also screw up the data, the people who block the game are most likely to be "geeks" who have up to date systems and the people who dont have a clue will use lower end systems. Hence why sticking to a low resolution is a bad idea as all the geeks with a w/s monitor wont be reporting back that they are using it.

So you block SI's attempts to collect harmless information about your screen resolution, and then complain because they don't take you into account when deciding what sort of resolution to use?

This sort of privacy paranoia is completely ridiculous. If I stand in the street and record the hair colour of the next one hundred people to walk past, am I "stealing" their data?

[Delvey]

Or, as FM does, simply note that every one in Oxford Street Topshop is in the UK. I feel that that is the best analogy.

[Kickballz]

As I mentioned above, the in game advertising stuff is integrated inside the game. We have to do it this way due to the licensed leagues.



SEGA haven't announced anything about DRM or copy protection for this year, so I'm not really sure how that comes into play on this topic.

As for "respect", if I didn't respect our customers, I wouldn't be here talking to them and being open and honest with them. It is then down to the customer to decide whether they want to play the game or not, but at least I'm giving them the information so that they are able to make an informed decision.

If that decision is not to purchase, whether it be because of what I believe to be uninstrusive data collection, or if they don't like the demo of the game, I think we have shown the utmost respect by being so upfront and giving them the chance to know what is being collected, and a chance to play the finished version of the game before it is released.

Miles, I understand your points but I'm sure I speak for many when I propose a very simple solution:

Please make it optional; an opt in or an opt out. That is all it would take to make everyone happy. If people don't want to supply data then don't make them do so. It just antagonises people who really don't like it.

[jakobx]

You do not have the choice of returning the game after reading the EULA?

Heh..have fun trying to return a DRM game.

[Elrithral]

Please make it optional; an opt in or an opt out. That is all it would take to make everyone happy. If people don't want to supply data then don't make them do so. It just antagonises people who really don't like it.

Christ on a bike!

There are lots of simple solutions,

They aren't making you, it's your choice if you don't bother your backside to set your firewall to block FM from accessing the net. Yeah, make it an option, but you guys are making out as if Skorp and Ter are standing beside you with a gun to your head and telling you that if you go anywhere near windows firewall they'll eat your puppy. Blimey!

[jakobx]

This sort of privacy paranoia is completely ridiculous. If I stand in the street and record the hair colour of the next one hundred people to walk past, am I "stealing" their data?

You are confusing public and private places. A street is a public place, my computer is a private place. Your analogy would work best if you would barge into peoples homes and look at their hair. I dont think they would like that.

[Kickballz]

They aren't making you, it's your choice if you don't bother your backside to set your firewall to block FM from accessing the net. Yeah, make it an option, but you guys are making out as if Skorp and Ter are standing beside you with a gun to your head and telling you that if you go anywhere near windows firewall they'll eat your puppy. Blimey!

Why did you quote someone else to make it look like me?

Please be more careful in the future.