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Thread: Ridiculous results

  1. #1

    Angry Ridiculous results

    OK, I want to preface this article by saying that it is more or less an angry rant at the match engine and anyone who thinks that it is without flaws and wants to lambast me for being tactically inept should probably stop reading now, as I'm a sensitive young man.

    I have been playing football management simulations for many years, dating back to Premier Manager 98. I am 20 years old, I watch a lot of football, and read a lot on football tactics, especially concerning this game which has been the bane of my existence for years now. OK thats a bit strong, I still love the game and am hopelessly addicted to it, but never have I played a more frustrating game in my life. I began playing the FM series when 06 came out and have bought every one since. In the time I have been playing, I have meticulously studied everything I can get my hands on that tries to explain the match engine and tactical system used in FM and frankly, it needs some SERIOUS work. I know people will dismiss my concerns as incorrect tactics and I'm sure that has a part to play in some of the frustrating losses and draws I suffer, but that is not the end of the story.

    I am a Man Utd fan and as such, usually choose them to manage. Because they are an excellent football team, I have no trouble in attracting some fantastic players to come and play for me, pretty much anyone good on the game has played for me at some point. And yet, I always come across teams who can eek out a result against me by essentially violating the laws of the game. The number of games where I have succumbed to defeat because a mediocre side puts away its only shot on goal whereas my world class players spoon effort after effort harmlessly over the bar, or have been beaten by a 35 yard banana shot by a full back with a long shot stat of 9, or have been foiled by a distinctly average goalkeeper violating the laws of physics 6 or 7 times in a game (damn you gomes, scott carson, robert green etc!) must be well into the thousands. I am not claiming that these things do not happen in real football, but simply that they should happen less often, especially when the players missing one on ones for you are of the standard of Cristiano Ronaldo, David Villa or Lionel Messi. There are games where, no matter what I try tactically, I will be denied a win despite a vastly superior shots on target and possession ratio. People argue against the existence of AI advantages, but I know I am not alone in having defensive howlers cost me a game or talentless hacks score the goal of the season.

    I find that the frustrating matches are pretty cyclical, with a rough patch of form coming every season around november, and then again in february. I browsed forums and websites for the game ceaselessly, trying to find out where I was going wrong, and why I couldnt cut these kind of games down to a bare minimum, but after years of this I am forced to accept that the game is simply biased towards the AI. This may sound childish but whatever, I dont care, Im angry and I dont think that the match engine should have so many people championing it when it is clearly flawed. I understand that it is no easy task to create a perfect working simulation of a football match and that in technical terms, the match engine is an absolute revelation, but I am just so fed up of watching my team waste chances and lose games that any other team would win easily. Tactics are an important part of football management obviously, but often the game seems to be a little TOO demanding on the accuracy of your tactics. Put one slider too far to the side and crap teams will tear through you like Barcelona. Its unreasonable. Heroic comebacks, super keepers and incredible long shots are commonplace for the AI, but a lot rarer for the human player to achieve. Im not saying to cut them out of the game, but please, for the love of god SI, for the sake of my sanity, please scale them back.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    Good post, reasonably expressed. There is no doubt that the ME is not perfect and that the work that is going on in Tactics for FM10 and the new ME will help in the new version. You may also want to open this discussion in the Tactics forum and you amy get some advice from those players who have a great interest in the tactics area of the game

  3. #3

    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    To be perfectly honest, I wasn't looking for an explanation to my shortcomings, rather just to have a bit of a rant and see if anyone has the same problems. I may well stick it in the tactics forum though, so i can find out just why Wayne Rooney insists on blasting it over from 30 yards all the time.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    You're not the first, nor the last to express something like this.

    However, I believe that FM09 improved a lot on this front, it's much, much, much less frustrating than FM08 was. That match engine was seriously flawed and you could have entire seasons of outplaying the opponent in every game but conceding 2 or 3 goals from 1 shot on target...

  5. #5

    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    While I agree that there was a major improvement on the whole, I feel they took backwards steps in several aspects. True, the super keepers and mad long shots have always been there, but I have found my team committing a lot more incredibly stupid basic errors in this file, such as refusing to go after a loose ball in close proximity to them, dreadful standards of throw ins and crosses and awful defensive howlers. In the previous games, I did not have nearly as much trouble with these issues but since the implementation of the 3d match engine, they have increased tenfold. This is admittedly probably due to the fact that its the first time the 3d ME has been put in and it was always going to have flaws, but some flaws get more pronounced as others disappear through patches etc. Also, I have had like 3 decent regens in my last 2 files on the most recent patch so its not just the ME. I think my main point was that, while football manager is meant to be a realistic simulation, it shouldnt lose sight of the fact that it is a game as well and as such, should strive to be more fun than frustrating. I'm sure these AI advantages that seem so apparent were put in to stop human players winning each match 10-0 or whatever, but I feel that on the whole they are implemented in the wrong way and to the detriment of the game. It is not realistic to see an average goalkeeper pull of a string of incredible reflex saves on a regular basis against a team, but I could name lots that do. Basically, if I have 4 times the chances of the opponent I am facing, I feel it is reasonable to expect to score more goals than them, and if I have better players statistically than the opponent, I would like to see my long shots and crosses as accurate, if not more so than the AI's, but that is rarely the case.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    While I don't completely disagree with Stallions opening post, [and have felt frustrated like you on many occasions] - You can alter your tactics to fix these issues. I'm not saying it is your tactics, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying there are things you can do [that often completely contradict what should actually happen when you set your tactics up] - that can avoid this. Its hard to get the balance right though, and takes trial and error. I found that no tactic, or tactician in the forum can help with this, and you simply have to adjust player settings for your players, to suit the smallest of needs. [You used rooney in your example, so if he keeps missing these tap ins, drop his Creative Freedom to the bottom, passing to very short, and tempo to the slowest level, and you'll find he starts tucking them away.]

    Again, I'm not saying thats the right way about it, and trust me, I've been in your situation far too many times [which is the main reason I dropped back to FM08] - but there are ways to fix it.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    FM09 is far from perfect, but at least it was better than 07 and 08, where World Class strikers wused to squander like 3-4 one-on-ones in the same match, or where Top defenders were ridiculed by mediocre strikers on a regular basis.

    Sure, the odd "are you kidding me?!" match still occurs, but the month of default crappy form routine has been toned down a lot.

    Honestly, I can just remember a couple of absurdly bad matches, and nothing I didn't manage to salvage [not winning, but at least keeping it honourable] with an harsh half-time talk and with some minor tactical changes.


    I do agree the tactics should be a bit more "open". Man U with an average manager/tactic would still be better than a flawlessly set WBA

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    Football Manager 2009 - 20% tactics 10% Players 70% Luck! if yur a good gambler or a lucky irish fellow you will win cups every season :P if your not so lucky and basicaly nothing goes right in your life you wil no dought end up relegated or just above

    trust me i know im not a lucky irish fellow

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    I agree with Fraz you expressed your point quite eloquently and there is no doubt the match engine is far from perfect, but taking into account how complicated it is to create something like this SI is doing a good job IMO. Your post wasn't one of the poorly thought out illogical rants you occasionally read on this forum.

    Actually when playing FM2008 at times I was tearing my hair out but it is possible to cut down on these instances of super keepers and the opposition always taking your chances when you don't.

    Although tactics are of course important, I have reached the conclusion that team talks and press conferences actually have a huge impact on how your team performs over time and if you get these right and also have a decent tactic plus good players the game actually becomes very, very easy if your a top club.

    You should look at the analysis of morale and player motivation sticky thread over in the tactics/training forum. Since I looked at that and I managed to put the ideas there to decent use I haven't looked back.

    Referring to tactics I find my attacking players are much more effective/lethal if each individual player has the correct style of passing as you create alot of clear cut chances. Also all my midfielders/forwards don't have higher than 'own half' pressing with none having pressing higher than right in the middle of the slider. I find since I've done this my creative players have room to cut open defences.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    Thats more or less what I was driving at, the whole reason I posted this was an incredibly frustrating loss at home to that very team, West Brom. They took the lead 13 minutes in and from then on were reduced to speculative pot shots, while my team of superstars pressed and pressed and couldnt do anything. I got a bit silly with my current file and decided to make a bit of a Manchester Galacticos team. Therefore, my starting lineup included kaka, ronaldo, rooney and silva. Yet these top class players were foiled by Scott bloody Carson and his magical defense. I tried going all out attack, widening my play to break them down, speeding up my tempo, shortening passing etc etc to try and at least draw, but after a string of sensational saves I slumped to defeat. Perhaps I overlooked something in my tactics, but as there is no "shot accuracy" slider there is only so much i can do. In the end I had 24 shots and the majority of possession but I guess dominating the game just isnt enough sometimes.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    Bleh none of you can play FM08 apparently, FM09 is exactly the same as 08, just the tactics are more intuitive.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    I can play FM08 - Who said that was an issue?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    I can play the games no problem, before my loss to WBA I had beaten Man City, Liverpool and Arsenal on the trot. My point was that sometimes weaker teams play well above their ability whilst yours plays well below, and you lose games more often than not to dreadful finishing, super keepers and incredible pot shots rather than being the inferior team.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    It's due to your players motivation dropping that you lost to a weaker team after beating the big boys. The thread in tactics and training discusses how everytime you win a game although morale goes up or stays at its highest, motivation can drop. That's why it's important to not always praise your players when you've won games your expected to win. At full time often the best team talk to give is 'none' in these cases. This is especially important when you're on a very long winning run as it stops your players getting too complacent.

    When you play a weak team your expected to hammer you should be demanding of your players to keep them on their toes. Also before a game against a weak team if your key striker hasn't scored for a while it is often a good idea to criticise him slightly in the media before the game. If he has the right personality watch the goals fly in...

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    I agree completely with the TC. I've only started enjoying this game when using downloaded tactics as it is just so ard to get into the tactics system of this game. SI need to make this game a better pick up and play experience.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    The OP probably has tactical problems, but I can sympathise with the frustration because the match engine leads you to believe you are doing nothing wrong. Your team dominate matches and create countless CCCs without scoring then concede from 40 yards in the 89th minute.

    In these sorts of matches the match engine should show your team struggling to break down the opposition in a more realistic way, and it should actually be possible to see the effects of your tactical mistakes on the pitch. It is impossible to learn where you're going wrong if all you see is your world class striker missing CCCs for no apparent reason.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    Do people really struggle without downloading tactics? I'm not boasting or anything, but I have barely made any real change to the tactics, all I have done is change round the 4-4-2 tactic so I now have a DM, and I change the settings of two players - My DM, and my tall target man who plays up front, and so far, Im running away in all cups and in the league with newcastle :S

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    Quote Originally Posted by pain-giver View Post
    Do people really struggle without downloading tactics? I'm not boasting or anything, but I have barely made any real change to the tactics, all I have done is change round the 4-4-2 tactic so I now have a DM, and I change the settings of two players - My DM, and my tall target man who plays up front, and so far, Im running away in all cups and in the league with newcastle :S
    TBH if I put more effort into tactics I would probably get a grasp of them. But I don't have the patience or time to try. Especially after a day at work where I deal with stats on a computer all day, I don't what to come back to what is basically number crunching with out the numbers set out in front of you.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    Quote Originally Posted by earmack View Post
    Bleh none of you can play FM08 apparently, FM09 is exactly the same as 08, just the tactics are more intuitive.
    Maybe so, but the feeling of a "pretetermined loss" grew stronger when I decided to make a little experiment following an unexplainable 0-2 loss home against dead-last Derby (I was Liverpool).

    I reloaded the game and played the game 10 times, without altering the lineup or the tactics.

    Results: 1-4-5.

    That leads to one conclusion only...

    At some stage, the game just decides your team is going to lose stupidly.

    I can live with my superstars not being motivated against an already relegated team, I can even see the opponents catching them off-guard, I can eventually accept the super-underdogs causing an upset with a lucky 1-0 win.

    But NOT them bringing home a result NINE TIMES out of ten.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    it sometimes happens where your team has the worst game of their career and the opposition has the best of theirs. Think boro liverpool towards the end of last season. A team that scores freely cant score and a team that hasnt scored all year puts two past one of the best defenses. It happens

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    Quote Originally Posted by RBKalle View Post
    Maybe so, but the feeling of a "pretetermined loss" grew stronger when I decided to make a little experiment following an unexplainable 0-2 loss home against dead-last Derby (I was Liverpool).

    I reloaded the game and played the game 10 times, without altering the lineup or the tactics.

    Results: 1-4-5.

    That leads to one conclusion only...

    At some stage, the game just decides your team is going to lose stupidly.

    I can live with my superstars not being motivated against an already relegated team, I can even see the opponents catching them off-guard, I can eventually accept the super-underdogs causing an upset with a lucky 1-0 win.

    But NOT them bringing home a result NINE TIMES out of ten.
    Could mean that they have the upper hand in the tactics department. I don't mean to repeat the it's your tactics mantra but all your experiment did was show that if you play the same players with the same tactic you are bound to lose. Logically speaking either a change of tactics or personnel is/was in order.

    I really don't mean to come off as sounding condescending or anything like that and if I do I apologize.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
    Albert Einstein
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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    Quote Originally Posted by Sel View Post
    it sometimes happens where your team has the worst game of their career and the opposition has the best of theirs. Think boro liverpool towards the end of last season. A team that scores freely cant score and a team that hasnt scored all year puts two past one of the best defenses. It happens

    It does happen in real life yes, BUT in real life these occurances are a the exception rather than the rule, in FM 09 and 08 it seems that your side HAS to suffer a drought at some point because it makes it more realistic. In fact it actually removes the realism, I just guided my Newcastle side to second in the prem with an unbeaten record against the big four Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and Man City (Man Utd are in the championship), winning every home game against them. My side suffered 4 defeats in the whole campiagn and all four were against the bottom three, with the side finishing 20th (Chesterfield) beating me home and away.

    Now I know "its my tactics" but having one of the most creative teams in the league and a side a lot more experienced and technically gifted than Chesterfield why do I suddenly have to start playing a less attacking style of football?

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    Not unreasonable points, but it's a GAME. How anyone can expect perfection is beyond me. In previous versions I could take a small team and within three or four seasons have them winning everything every season. I prefer a challenge. The main problems with FM09 are the way outside forces have a disproportionate effect on your game, eg, Press Conferences, Team Talks, which might have a minor effect in some players, but a bad team talk shouldn't make your entire team collapse.

    But once in a while, Man U (believe it or not) do lose against inferior opposition despite having more possession, more shots, and better players. It's one of the GOOD things about this game. Anyone who thinks Ferguson and Benitez don't plan every single game and change their tactics EVERY SINGLE GAME is deluding themselves. They may play the same FORMATION, but tactics are very different from formation.

    Playing against Arsenal is very different from playing against Wigan; playing against Wigan is very different to playing against Hull; playing against Hull is very different from playing against Rushden and Diamonds. Each game is a challenge. In that way, FM09 is way more realistic than previous versions, and I don't think it's entirely down to the ME (although I accept it is not perfect).

    But as I said, outside infulences have TOO MUCH affect on the matches themselves. THAT'S the main fault with the game, and one I hope is addressed for FM10.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    I'm going to say that it's a problem with your team talks, or something else to do with your motivation of players and their morale against smaller sides. Maybe try saying to one of those big stars that you "expect a performance". Also, try adjusting levels of creative freedom for those superstars.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    Quote Originally Posted by SCIAG View Post
    I'm going to say that it's a problem with your team talks, or something else to do with your motivation of players and their morale against smaller sides. Maybe try saying to one of those big stars that you "expect a performance". Also, try adjusting levels of creative freedom for those superstars.

    If its as simple as that then it makes a mockery of the whole match engine and the game should be renamed "mind game manager09"

    Like the previous poster stated the team talks and press conferences have far to much effect on the outcome of games than they should, almost to the point where they can be used as a power up.

    And for creative freedom why do I have to REDUCE it to get my best players to perform against weaker opposition? Surely on such an occasion the most technically gifted would like more freedom to express themselves.

    I'll just point out that I know SCIAG didn't say reduce creative freedom, but thta is what seems to work.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    I don't think SCIAG is justifying, just offering advice on how to fix it for your game. SI won't be changing anything for FM09 and no patch will be made. So we are stuck with getting around the flaws rather than demanding SI fix them.

    For teamtalks, I think I have it down mostly. Still struggle against strong teams that are low rep, eg, Villa first couple of seasons, but mostly it's a case of "good luck" against much bigger teams, "expect a win" against not bad but inferior teams, and "none" against much inferior teams, eg, those in lower divisions. Plus you get to know who reacts well to "I expect a performance" - players like Torres at Liverpool will play out of their skin when you use that at the right time (against BIG teams like Barca and Inter), but it has never worked for me with Robinho at Man City; he usually scores under 6 when I use that.

    Even if SI don't come out and say it, they do take feedback on board, so I'm sure they will look at this for FM10.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    Quote Originally Posted by Cometdude View Post
    If its as simple as that then it makes a mockery of the whole match engine and the game should be renamed "mind game manager09"

    Like the previous poster stated the team talks and press conferences have far to much effect on the outcome of games than they should, almost to the point where they can be used as a power up.

    And for creative freedom why do I have to REDUCE it to get my best players to perform against weaker opposition? Surely on such an occasion the most technically gifted would like more freedom to express themselves.

    I'll just point out that I know SCIAG didn't say reduce creative freedom, but that is what seems to work.
    Regarding the Press conferences and teamtalks, they are just a way to keep your players motivated and happy, as a little test, when my team played a much weaker side, I played one match where I purposely tried to make my team as unhappy as possible by giving all the 'wrong' answers in the press conferences, and giving them stupid teamtalks (Such as saying angry when someone was playing well, and delighted when someone was playing crap), and I also played the same match, going through it as I usually would

    I ended up winning both games, but my team played much better when I gave the correct teamtalks and press conferences, so it isn't a case of these two features being the end all means of winning a match, I just think they help your teams motivation, which in turn determines how well they all play. I do think the press conferences do need fixing though, when I was playing a team, I was asked who I would use to counter their main threat, I said 'Ivan Fatic', who got upset and said he wasnt worthy of my comments? I dont get it haha :/

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    Question Re: Ridiculous results

    Some great stuff here.
    I did the experiment someone posted here, playing the same game a few times after an odd loss to a weak team, i found that if i changed the players, not the tactics, i came off better, generally if i played squad, rather than 1st team players, my reasoning being, that against weaker teams, my ''superstars'' might not have the same motivation as my younger guys, who are trying like bears to win the game.

    Just food for thought, and, in a way, pretty realistic. Perhaps the match engine is not so dumb???;)

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    When managing lower league teams, we might see the other side of the story.

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    I think my biggest problem is the frequency of these giant killing losses inflicted upon me. Sure, they happen and every once in a while its fine to happen against you, but it happens several times a season for me. I've read into teamtalks and such a lot and they certainly can help up to a point, but I definitely think that sometimes the game does take a more predetermined loss unless you can get your tactics spot on approach. While I understand that players will find it much harder to get motivated sometimes against the weaker squads, I also find that in games like this, a half time boot up the arse rarely works, and encouragement does nothing for me either. In some games, my players simply dont show up, and its frustrating when its the WHOLE team rather than one or two individuals, especially when they are professionals of the highest level.

    Another thing that irritates me about the team talk system would be that it is very biased towards the computer. I have often said that being 1 or 2 up against Arsenal at half time is the most disadvantageous position to be in in the game, as you can bet your house they will come storming back no matter whether you try to counter attack, go for the jugular or shut up shop. Theres no stopping some managers in the game, especially Arsene Wenger.

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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    You would be completely correct about the ME if it were not for the fact that every problem you state is caused by and fixable by motivation. The real challenge of FM09 is not assembling a good squad and constructing a good tactical basis, it is getting that good squad with its sound tactical basis performing week in and week out.

    What you are being frustrated and annoyed and angered by is not ME weakness, it is the very meat and point of the gameplay of FM09. FM08 had some emerging elements of this gameplay but FM09 now forces you to manage each players focus and determination and composure alongside tactical issues on a game by game basis. The game is not "Mind Manager 09" it is "Tactical and Mind Manager 09" and if you do not manage your players focus on a game by game basis then you are going to lose where your tactics and player attributes say you should have won. You are going to have players making mistakes all over the pitch and you are going to magnify the power of your opponent by your own players lack of commitment and focus.

    All of these "heroic comebacks, superkeepers and incredible longshots" by inferior opponents are impossible when your fullback wins every last ditch tackle and your CM intercepts every pass and your striker puts every shot into the corner or your keeper gets his fingers to every shot. Like it or not this is what you have to produce in your team game by game by game and when you figure out how to do it, by lots of trial and error and attention to detail and manipulating player personalities, then you can match your opponent for commitment and desire and beat them with skill.

    It is not a gameplay flaw, it is gameplay. It is a massive part of the game engine now and the only way to play this game is to accept it and get involved in it. You can no longer power through games without paying attention to what your squad thinks of those games. You are now forced to pay attention and make decisions based on each and every game, and if you get them wrong you lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by charismatic_stallion View Post
    To be perfectly honest, I wasn't looking for an explanation to my shortcomings, rather just to have a bit of a rant and see if anyone has the same problems. I may well stick it in the tactics forum though, so i can find out just why Wayne Rooney insists on blasting it over from 30 yards all the time.
    He has the PPM "Shoots From Distance" is highly aggressive with low composure and is easilly riled or angered. He is one of those players for whom motivating to get involved in a match comes at the detriment of his final product and his disciplinary record. This is one of the many interesting personality/attribute combinations that a top level manager has to take into account in this game, and find some way to manage. All in all Wayne Rooney is not a good goalscorer but he is exceptionally good at destroying defences.
    Last edited by SFraser; 22-07-2009 at 18:37.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    OK heres another case of irritating match engine problems. I'm playing Portsmouth at Old Trafford and set out with an attacking, slow-ish tempo direct passing style with quite a high backline as they are playing crouch up top on his own in a 451. I dominate the whole first half and go 2 ahead, and at halftime most of my players are on 7 or thereabouts. I tell them to not drop their performance, and tell Rooney (on a 6.4) that im disappointed with him, as well as telling a couple of players with higher ratings that I have faith in them. In the second half, Portsmouth get their first goal from a throw in, passed to a player on the edge of the box who takes a pot shot, which deflects into the path of their winger. His first touch is heavy and my keeper goes to dive on the ball, but misses completely, allowing the player to nonchalantly step over him and score. OK, a stupid keeper error, they happen, fair enough. Vidic scores from a corner to up my lead to 2 goals again, and im still dominating possession. Then after more pressure from me, they score their second, a very tame shot from a midfielder at a narrow angle should easily be caught by my goalkeeper, but he messes it up and parries the ball to Crouch's feet, giving him an easy tap in. Two horrific blunders in one match, and the match engine didnt even give my keeper a lesser rating because of them, he finished with a 7.0. In the end they had 7 shots (almost all long shots), 4 on target, 0 off target (naturally) and 2 clear chances that they score from. I have most of the possession, 28 shots in total, however only 10 on target and 4 clear chances, 3 of which I scored. So despite dominating the game from start to finish I have once again come away with a narrow victory due to random blunders from the match engine coupled with some deadly accuracy for the opposition. I realise the most likely source of the trouble is in my tactics, but I have been experimenting constantly and cannot seem to cut out these blunders or make my players half as accurate as the computer. Ive tried raising and lowering creative freedom, changing tempo and passing style and formation all together, in all the different combinations I can think of and I still cant seem to cut out these stupid errors from my play. Whats more, the fact that my keepers score was not punished as they usually are for errors leads me to believe that the game truly does favour itself over the human player, considering I could have kept goal better than my keeper (the reigning keeper of the year, I might add).

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    each match is different, reducing creative freedom for some players in one match may see out a game in your favour, doing it in another could see you concede 5. Its a game. Binary code.

  35. #35
    Semi Pro SFraser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    It's not your tactics, or atleast the general description of your tactics is sound and your team is littered with poor performances and some contradictory man management.

    Take Wayne Rooney. If he is playing in a slow tempo game then telling him you are dissapointed is completely counter-productive because he is going to go out in the second half and hack everyone down while launching rockets into the top tier of the stand. However what you needed to do was get your back line Fired Up so that A: your Centrebacks out anticipate and out muscle Crouch and B: get to the loose balls first and pressure the opponent hard when they have the ball.

    It sounds to me like your defence was overly composed and your attack overly excited. Your defenders should have snapped into every tackle the moment the opponent received the ball upfront and if not winning the first ball outright then should have crunched the second ball and given no Portsmouth player a single second on the ball. Upfront your are hitting a rediculous quantity of shots for the amount on target and although scoring your CCC's it sounds like Wayne Rooney was close to going pop.

    Now your tactics in general sound quite solid. High line against a slow target man and slow tempo direct football to get the ball forward and create good chances. Great. However your defence was not snapping into the opponent and your front line was not taking care and playing smart. You Fired Up! and Composed the wrong players. It is a man management problem, not a tactical one.

  36. #36

    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    I understand that, but the game often has completely illogical criteria for what changes to be made, and this is a major problem. I dont like having to be completely counter intuitive by restricting a play like kaka's creative freedom when I'm trying to break down a defense. The purpose of this article was to highlight the fact that the game has some serious flaws in the programming and can be way too picky when it comes to tactics. Trial and error is hardly a good way to play a management sim, but often once you exhaust all the reasonable options you have, its the only way. I'm no Alex Ferguson, but sometimes giving your team instructions that I think are mad ie. going all out against a counter attacking team like Liverpool, is the only way to win a game. Essentially, the game doesnt make sense sometimes and is very VERY punishing for the slightest tactical oversight.

  37. #37
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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    Quote Originally Posted by SFraser View Post
    It's not your tactics, or atleast the general description of your tactics is sound and your team is littered with poor performances and some contradictory man management.

    Take Wayne Rooney. If he is playing in a slow tempo game then telling him you are dissapointed is completely counter-productive because he is going to go out in the second half and hack everyone down while launching rockets into the top tier of the stand. However what you needed to do was get your back line Fired Up so that A: your Centrebacks out anticipate and out muscle Crouch and B: get to the loose balls first and pressure the opponent hard when they have the ball.

    It sounds to me like your defence was overly composed and your attack overly excited. Your defenders should have snapped into every tackle the moment the opponent received the ball upfront and if not winning the first ball outright then should have crunched the second ball and given no Portsmouth player a single second on the ball. Upfront your are hitting a rediculous quantity of shots for the amount on target and although scoring your CCC's it sounds like Wayne Rooney was close to going pop.

    Now your tactics in general sound quite solid. High line against a slow target man and slow tempo direct football to get the ball forward and create good chances. Great. However your defence was not snapping into the opponent and your front line was not taking care and playing smart. You Fired Up! and Composed the wrong players. It is a man management problem, not a tactical one.
    Rooneys plays best in real life when hes ****ed off.

  38. #38

    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    SFraser, you may well be onto something there. Admittedly, I spend less time worrying about the motivation side of the game, preferring to focus on tactics, and this is probably a misstep. My problem is, with the limited number of team talk options available, I rarely know which ones to go for. I was reading your thread on motivation the other day and found it an interesting read, but it still has not helped me in identifying when to put an arm around the shoulder and when to give a cuff round the ear. I don't know what I should have said to my defence at half time, I assumed "I dont expect your performance to drop!" would see them keep their focus and cut out defensive errors, and at the end of the day my centre back zapata got a worse rating than the keeper, probably due to lax marking. I will certainly work on this aspect but the game does not make it easy to see where you are going wrong in this respect, and I feel its a big problem.

  39. #39
    Semi Pro SFraser's Avatar
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    I don't understand why anyone would want to restrict a player like Kaka's Creative Freedom. Focus his passing and tune his Personal Intructions sure but under no circumstances would I personally be restricting the Creative Freedom of a player like that. I understand that this kind of advice is given regularly on these forums but it is not advice I would give nor is it advice I would follow. Kaka needs his Creativity channeled not neutered. I play Giorgio Chiellini at Centreback with maximum Creative Freedom and he has a pass completion rate of 71%. He is hardly Paul Scholes but he makes good Decisions and I know what to say to him to get him into the right "frame of mind".

    I don't agree that there are serious programming flaws. I think that perhaps the game in its entirety is not completely true to real life when all factors converge but for what it is, it remains functional and solid.

    I keep saying to you that your problems are not tactic related and you keep saying the game is tactically punishing. I am no tactical Guru whatsoever, my defence consists of getting Giorgio Chiellini playing alongside Federico Fazio and getting them "Fired Up!" for every match while playing the Off-side trap. It's not exactly Cattenacio but no one in the game is going to escape their tackles. You could say I defend by playing a couple of highly motivated Materazzis with pacey fullbacks and a good "rushing out" keeper and you would not be far wrong. It could not be more basic and yet it gives me a goals conceded per match rate of 0.5.

    What I am saying to you is that you need to understand motivation and motivate your players according to their abilities and roles. You need to get Wayne Rooney and Rio Ferdinand all nice and calm while getting Vidic and Ronaldo Fired Up! Otherwise Rooney is going to launch shots over the bar and Ferdinand is going to dive into tackles, while Ronaldo decides not to play and Vidic keeps getting skinned.

    I know it is frustrating when the game is making is no sense and nothing is coming off, but I am telling you that if you learn to motivate your players according to their abilities and their roles in your tactics then everything is going to make a lot more sense right away and become a lot easier to understand, if not fix.

  40. #40
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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    Quote Originally Posted by charismatic_stallion View Post
    SFraser, you may well be onto something there. Admittedly, I spend less time worrying about the motivation side of the game, preferring to focus on tactics, and this is probably a misstep. My problem is, with the limited number of team talk options available, I rarely know which ones to go for. I was reading your thread on motivation the other day and found it an interesting read, but it still has not helped me in identifying when to put an arm around the shoulder and when to give a cuff round the ear. I don't know what I should have said to my defence at half time, I assumed "I dont expect your performance to drop!" would see them keep their focus and cut out defensive errors, and at the end of the day my centre back zapata got a worse rating than the keeper, probably due to lax marking. I will certainly work on this aspect but the game does not make it easy to see where you are going wrong in this respect, and I feel its a big problem.
    Look at Zapata's mental attributes. His Determination is frankly rubbish. Saying "don't let your performance drop!" to him probably frightened him, although it was a sensible teamtalk for the match context.

    What is important to understand is that motivation has a profound effect on performances and behaviour, and that motivation requires understanding a players personality in relation to the match context. You cannot give teamtalks based upon the match alone, because what is important is the how the player reacts to the match context.

    Tactics are a big deal, but so is motivation. When you assemble your squad and have a solid tactical basis for your team, know what to tweak for home and away, big matches and small matches, then Motivation becomes the key element of gameplay. If you don't have that tactical basis then the entire game is a massive headache as you don't know what is going on because so much as going on.

    It is not the case that tactics are less important than motivation, but what is the case is that motivation needs to be addressed on a game by game basis.

    The way I am playing just now is with a basic tactic that I tweak game by game, and a basic knowledge of what to say to players that I adapt slightly on a game by game basis. This way I tune my tactics and my "motivation speeches" on a game by game basis, based upon a basic foundation I have constructed and learned over a few seasons.

    Motivation is much the same as tactics, in terms of keeping and understanding the basics and tweaking on a game by game basis, but now that they both exist the game becomes much more complicated to understand untill you have that complete basis to work with. Actually identifying what to say to players and how they will respond is difficult and does take trial and error, although by looking at their personalities you can get a rough guide. While constructing tactics is generally based on obvious and presented attributes, motivation and teamtalks are based upon a multitude of hidden attributes and their interaction.

    Learning the right buttons to push for players is a big part of the game now. Pushing them properly gives big rewards and pushing them all wrong brings alot of misery and failure.

    The game not informing people as to what is going on and how to address it is an issue I totally understand and empathise with. I have said it myself many times.
    Last edited by SFraser; 22-07-2009 at 19:28.

  41. #41

    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    I suppose thats the reason Ronaldo scores heaps while Rooney takes far too many pot shots then! Thanks a lot for your help on this, but I am still not convinced by the team talk system. For something with as much importance to the matches as the tactics system, I really think they should be expanded further than the usual 5 soundbytes you get to pick from, plus a couple of extra options in the individual talks. Its very difficult finding the right balance for these, if I have a striker on a goal drought I will usually try and calm his nerves with "you have faith" or occasionally in matches against smaller teams "no pressure", but I find it rarely works. I do try and vary my team talks to see how they will effect performance, but admittedly I tend to skip most individual ones, preferring to tell a player he has faith if he has performed well or give him a bit of the hairdryer if he's playing like he's hungover. Unfortunately, I cant perceive many options other than encourage or yell, as no pressure I see as a bit risky. I will try and find out a little more about the mental aspects of my players and adjust my team talks accordingly, but for FM10 I would definitely like to see an increase in options in this area if it is indeed so vital to success.

  42. #42
    Semi Pro SFraser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    If SI do intend to increase the options then they certainly need to think about informing players as to the importance and function of the options. I personally understand your point but can also see increased options in the current format being a source of exponentially increasing frustration.

    I am going to come across as flogging a dead horse or repeating the same points for the purpose of simply posting, but it vital to understand that the players appreciation or perspective of the match is what matters more for teamtalks than your appreciation or perspective on how the match is going. The key is to get the players performing rather than for you to say what you really feel, and it is hidden mental attributes that profoundly determine each players reaction to a specific match and match events and your teamtalk.

    If a player has average pressure and is playing in a low pressure match then you want to make sure you say whatever stops him getting complacent, and what gets him playing well. If he is playing in a high pressure match then you want to say whatever stops him getting nervous.

    In the first match saying "Expect a Performance" might get him motivated. Saying the same thing in the second match will make him nervous. This is the essence of the motivation gameplay, you have to pay attention to the match context and adapt your input accordingly.

    Ofcourse with players like Rooney the entire thing is spun on its head. Motivating Rooney will get him involved in the match more than usual, but will have the added effect of destroying his end product because he is such a firebrand of a player anyway.

    Personally I think the whole thing is both simple and brilliant and highly enjoyable, but like tactics to even arrive at a basic understanding is an amazingly grueling path.
    Last edited by SFraser; 22-07-2009 at 19:52.

  43. #43

    Default Re: Ridiculous results

    Several games later, and no progress being made. Ive been trying to gauge my team talks in accordance with the importance of the match and giving team talks based on this, plus have started attending press conferences which I previously thought utterly pointless and left to my assistant. For example, I just played Leicester away in the League Cup. Said in the press conference that I expected a victory and that it was likely my players would find it hard to get motivated, told the players I expected a win, told Rooney (who was on a run of dreadful form before the last game where he scored) to pick up where he left off, and geed him up in the press conference as my best player, and after all that my team played crap for the first half, being wasteful in possession and taking massive first touches. I took a narrow lead through Messi, who was easily my best player at half time. Told Messi I had faith in his ability, told the rest I was disappointed in the performance to prevent further complacency, and they went out in the second half and did sod all. Finished 1-0. Told them all I was disappointed, except for a select few who played ok. Slagged my players off in the post match press conference for a shocking performance, as thats what it was called in the press. The only result I got was making Zapata unhappy. Either I'm the worst person ever at this, or my players are just very difficult to get off their lazy arses.

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