My little suggestion regarding transfer interest

[Sancho Panza]

One thing that annoys me about Football Manager is that when you add a player to your shortlist it puts on the players profile that you are interested in them. Sometimes this can cause a reaction from the player, ie that they are feeling flattered from the interest being shown in them. My problem with this is that I don't think adding a player to your shortlist should bring it up on the players profile. Same with interest from other clubs. For example if I am Arsenal and Real Madrid are watching Bacary Sagna as they see him as a possible new signing, I can tell they are because he will have a WNT next to his name on my team screen and in his profile it will say Real Madrid. Why as Arsenal Manager should I be aware that Real Madrid are keeping tabs on one of my players? I believe that the WNT sign should only appear when a bid has been lodged or when a team actually declares an interest in a player, either to the press or to myself, the Arsenal manager. This would make the declare an interest option more relevant in the game and would make it more realistic.

One other idea could be to have one WNT sign that appears after a team has actually approached you or declared their interest, and then maybe another WNT sign (in say a different colour or a slightly different abreviation) that could mean it is speculated that this player is wanted by another team.

Basically I don't like the idea that by adding a player to what should be my private shortlist that that player themselves and other clubs straight away know about it. If Arsene Wenger or any other manager in the world has a list in their head or on paper of who they are tracking or interested in, it is not revealed to the other clubs or players until a declaration of interest or bid is made. The game should match this.

Any thoughts?

[DivineOne]

I agree on this one. I regularly put players on my shortlist that I sold and want to keep following, that doesn't mean I wanna buy them.

[Sancho Panza]

I agree on this one. I regularly put players on my shortlist that I sold and want to keep following, that doesn't mean I wanna buy them.

Exactly. I would have hundreds on my shortlist if I knew it wasn't going to litter the game with WNT signs that I don't want other managers knowing about.

[SCIAG]

Very well put, and I have to say, I agree. Having said that, the AI seems to use the "shortlist" feature very differently to the human i.e. only listing players it is genuinely interested in.

[Sancho Panza]

Very well put, and I have to say, I agree. Having said that, the AI seems to use the "shortlist" feature very differently to the human i.e. only listing players it is genuinely interested in.

You're right about the AI, but it doesn't matter how interested a team is, it should only appear once a bid or declaration of interest has been actioned.

If I find a great Spanish player who is 15 years old, I add him to my watchlist, and it comes up on his profile saying something like that he feels under pressure by the interest being shown in him. Now to me this would seem to be a negative influence on his development as a footballer. So how do I keep an eye on him without him knowing? The shortlist should be how I do it I believe, but at the moment it is not private enough bascially.

[InterWolf]

Just look on the rumours section of a sports paper. If you keep seeing a guy in a bwin shirt at your training sessions - worry! Irl everyone more or less knows who's interested in whom. How often do you see a signing and think, "i hadn't heard of that possibility"?

[Dreaded Walrus]

Very well put, and I have to say, I agree. Having said that, the AI seems to use the "shortlist" feature very differently to the human i.e. only listing players it is genuinely interested in.

This. I'm mostly fine with the current AI usage of WNT (to use a shorter name for the system), but the human manager aspect I 100% agree with. As a West Brom fan, I add pretty much every West Brom player to one of my shortlists when I'm managing elsewhere, just so I can have regular updates on their progress. I don't ever plan on purchasing the majority of them. For human managers I do agree that "Declaring interest" should be the decider.

[TomHAVFC]

It makes no difference imo.

[Amaroq]

This problem is actually addressed in the current game (and has been since FM'05 or so), its just done in a way that is not intuitive to most human managers.

The concept is "Active Shortlists" and "Inactive Shortlists".

An "Active" shortlist, the manager receives in his Inbox any new updates about the player: bids from rival teams, bids accepted/rejected, new contract negotiated, injuries, contract about to expire, transfer completed, etc. The 'trade-off' is that the "WNT" icon appears next to the player, and your club shows as "Interested" in his Transfers page.

An "Inactive" shortlist, the player does NOT show with a "WNT" icon, or as "Interested" on his Transfers page. However, you also do not receive any new updates.

(What's the real-world "logic"? I think of it as, an "Active" shortlist constitutes notifying the player's agent that you are interested, which leads to him notifying you any time relevant news comes up.)

The Default Shortlist is an Active Shortlist.

To create an Inactive Shortlist:
1. Go to Search | Shortlist
2. Find the small drop-down "Shortlists v" menu at the bottom-right side of the shortlist.
3. Select "New Shortlist"
4. Enter a new name for this shortlist, such as "Secret Shortlist".
5. Use the "Shortlists v" drop-down menu again.
6. Select "Set Active Shortlists"

You should have a check-box menu, with the "Default" and "Secret Shortlist" both listed, and checked. "Default" is grayed out; you cannot de-select it. However, if you un-tick "Secret Shortlist", you will now have an inactive shortlist.

7. De-select "Secret Shortlist"

Now, to verify this, add a player (any player) to your Secret Shortlist. Then open up the player, and click on his Transfers page. You should see "Interested: None", or at least, an "Interested" line that doesn't include your squad!

[Sancho Panza]

This problem is actually addressed in the current game (and has been since FM'05 or so), its just done in a way that is not intuitive to most human managers.

The concept is "Active Shortlists" and "Inactive Shortlists".

An "Active" shortlist, the manager receives in his Inbox any new updates about the player: bids from rival teams, bids accepted/rejected, new contract negotiated, injuries, contract about to expire, transfer completed, etc. The 'trade-off' is that the "WNT" icon appears next to the player, and your club shows as "Interested" in his Transfers page.

An "Inactive" shortlist, the player does NOT show with a "WNT" icon, or as "Interested" on his Transfers page. However, you also do not receive any new updates.

(What's the real-world "logic"? I think of it as, an "Active" shortlist constitutes notifying the player's agent that you are interested, which leads to him notifying you any time relevant news comes up.)

The Default Shortlist is an Active Shortlist.

To create an Inactive Shortlist:
1. Go to Search | Shortlist
2. Find the small drop-down "Shortlists v" menu at the bottom-right side of the shortlist.
3. Select "New Shortlist"
4. Enter a new name for this shortlist, such as "Secret Shortlist".
5. Use the "Shortlists v" drop-down menu again.
6. Select "Set Active Shortlists"

You should have a check-box menu, with the "Default" and "Secret Shortlist" both listed, and checked. "Default" is grayed out; you cannot de-select it. However, if you un-tick "Secret Shortlist", you will now have an inactive shortlist.

7. De-select "Secret Shortlist"

Now, to verify this, add a player (any player) to your Secret Shortlist. Then open up the player, and click on his Transfers page. You should see "Interested: None", or at least, an "Interested" line that doesn't include your squad!

Nice, that seems like a great way of doing it. Thanks.

[Bigwig]

Isn’t the problem with inactive shortlists that a club can bid for a player on there, agree terms and sign him without you getting so much as a news item?

[Dreaded Walrus]

Isn’t the problem with inactive shortlists that a club can bid for a player on there, agree terms and sign him without you getting so much as a news item?

Exactly. The inactive shortlist is good if you just want to remember a player's name for some other time and don't want it in a shortlist for anything else. However, some of us do want updates on a player, but just aren't interested in signing that player (as I mentioned in my example earlier where I have added all West Brom players to my shortlist to see how they do in life, but have no interest in signing the majority of them). Something of a mix between the current active and inactive would be nice, really.

[Sancho Panza]

Exactly. The inactive shortlist is good if you just want to remember a player's name for some other time and don't want it in a shortlist for anything else. However, some of us do want updates on a player, but just aren't interested in signing that player (as I mentioned in my example earlier where I have added all West Brom players to my shortlist to see how they do in life, but have no interest in signing the majority of them). Something of a mix between the current active and inactive would be nice, really.

I think one shortlist is the way to go. And unless you declare your interest in a player or actually make a bid then no WNT sign should be present and the player should be unaware of your interest. Thats how real life is. If Arsene Wenger decides to keep tabs on say Ryan Nelsen, Nelsen would know about it until Arsenal decalred their interest or made a bid. Maybe then the media aspect of the game could kick in and on occasion speculate that players on your shortlist are maybe trasnfer targets, almost like they are a leak from the club. In real life stories seem to come to the press without clubs and managers bringing them to light, so occasionly a media leak would make it more interesting.

I just really think the WNT system is very poorly modeled and is very unrealistic.

[Sancho Panza]

I think one shortlist is the way to go. And unless you declare your interest in a player or actually make a bid then no WNT sign should be present and the player should be unaware of your interest. Thats how real life is. If Arsene Wenger decides to keep tabs on say Ryan Nelsen, Nelsen would know about it until Arsenal decalred their interest or made a bid. Maybe then the media aspect of the game could kick in and on occasion speculate that players on your shortlist are maybe trasnfer targets, almost like they are a leak from the club. In real life stories seem to come to the press without clubs and managers bringing them to light, so occasionly a media leak would make it more interesting.

I just really think the WNT system is very poorly modeled and is very unrealistic.

Should not be present I mean

[Bigwig]

I think this is where people get frustrated when they put in a bid for a player who no one else seemingly wants, only to have a dozen clubs suddenly interested leading the user to miss out on the player and get frustrated.

I would assume that AI clubs have an inactive shortlist full of players they have some interest in, and only move players to their active shortlist once they have a firm interest in signing the player. However, as they are an AI club, they have an advantage over human players because they can constantly check the inactive shortlist for any sign of activity, whereas it would be far too cumbersome for human players to do this.

I agree that we need some sort of middle ground, perhaps a tick box option where you can select what news items you get for each shortlist, so for my main shortlist I want to hear just about everything regarding players on there, but for my secondary shortlist I might not want to hear about injuries etc. but transfer bids I would definitely want to know about.

[Sancho Panza]

I think this is where people get frustrated when they put in a bid for a player who no one else seemingly wants, only to have a dozen clubs suddenly interested leading the user to miss out on the player and get frustrated.

I would assume that AI clubs have an inactive shortlist full of players they have some interest in, and only move players to their active shortlist once they have a firm interest in signing the player. However, as they are an AI club, they have an advantage over human players because they can constantly check the inactive shortlist for any sign of activity, whereas it would be far too cumbersome for human players to do this.

I agree that we need some sort of middle ground, perhaps a tick box option where you can select what news items you get for each shortlist, so for my main shortlist I want to hear just about everything regarding players on there, but for my secondary shortlist I might not want to hear about injuries etc. but transfer bids I would definitely want to know about.

I really don't think multiple shortlists is the way to go. Maybe having one list and having the choice to make the player and other clubs aware of your interest or not is an option.

[Bigwig]

That’s not really realistic though because it’s not always possible to keep things quiet. It’s not always in your own hands whether interest in a player makes it into the public domain.

[postal postie]

i think the problem is more with how we use the shortlist.
the shortlist is meant to be a 'shortlist' of targets.
not every single player that we have a slight interest in.

thats probably what the notebook is for.

[Sancho Panza]

i think the problem is more with how we use the shortlist.
the shortlist is meant to be a 'shortlist' of targets.
not every single player that we have a slight interest in.

thats probably what the notebook is for.

That makes no sense logically. Just cause I identify a target doesn't mean I straight away want the player or other clubs to know that. The shortlist should be a personal thing, it should in no way (in my opinion) be public knowledge as to who you are following.

[Sancho Panza]

i think the problem is more with how we use the shortlist.
the shortlist is meant to be a 'shortlist' of targets.
not every single player that we have a slight interest in.

thats probably what the notebook is for.

That’s not really realistic though because it’s not always possible to keep things quiet. It’s not always in your own hands whether interest in a player makes it into the public domain.

Read my prior post about the odd shortlist addition making it to the press

[Polar Bear]

Hmmm, I think the shortlist concept has this tradeoff - if you want to know about bids, contract offers etc. on a player, then it is assumed that your interest is far enough advanced that it has been noted. Seems fair to me.

[Gdawg69]

Just look on the rumours section of a sports paper. If you keep seeing a guy in a bwin shirt at your training sessions - worry! Irl everyone more or less knows who's interested in whom. How often do you see a signing and think, "i hadn't heard of that possibility"?

emm, thats actually not true. There will be so many players that a club are interested in internally but it will never get out, some of them dont even leave the ground, so there are so many possible transfers we dont hear about. I defo agree with the original poster, and is something that bus me aswel, hwoever no one has ever really amde a point about it. I would say put it in the right place mate and someone from SI will def notice, and i'm sure they'l agree if they can fit it around their codes.

[Mistrho]

im with agree with the OP. adding a player to your shortlist shouldnt automatically let everyone know you want to buy or are watching the player. it is only when you have declared interest or made a public bid or have had information leaked in the media that determines that. the problem with the current system is that if my scouting knowledge is well upto date i can tell who my rivals are tryin to sign to strengthen their squads and hijack the bids just by going to my player search and looking at every player with a WNT sign on them or even a BID sign. The BID sign should only be present if the selling club has made it public.
reverting it to the system the OP is suggesting will also limit those annoying transfer speculation new items.

btw thanks amaroq for pointing out how to do inactive shortlists

[earmack]

solution: you should be able mark any player on your shortlist (one shortlist to rule them all...) as 'private' meaning you get updates but no press pester you for 20 weeks in a row. Pretty damn easy to do if you actually wanted to streamline the gaming experience.

[Amaroq]

I don't what to get drawn into defending the current system, because I'm quite sympathetic to what everybody is saying.

However, the request, "Let's have a shortlist which isn't public knowledge, but which I do get information about bids, etc," has a realism blind spot.

Who is notifying us of the (presumably private) bid between club A and club B?

Its a private bid, so it can't be anybody at my club. Its not club A; they have no interest in me competing with them. It could conceivably be somebody at club B. It could conceivably be the player's agent.

(Obviously, for a public bid, I could have somebody at my club reading the paper.)

How does club B or the player's agent know to notify me?

The only way that works, logically, is if I have expressed my interest to them. Both of them have a vested interest in making that information public - so as soon as I've told them "I want to know if you get a bid," that .. well .. shows up as a "WNT".

. . . . .

I think the problem comes about from terminology.

"Notes" - sound like my personal notebook, which never leaves my side. I'd be very distressed to find the media reading my notes back to me.

"Shortlist" - the term implies much the similar: "My private list", and then it makes no sense when placing somebody on that list causes public knowledge and AI reactions. This is especially the case as I suspect many of us will "shortlist" hundreds of players - I know I shortlist just about anybody my scouts recommend, just so that I don't forget about them.

Perhaps the game should come with two shortlists? Instead of "Default", maybe it comes with "Public" and "Private" - then I'd no longer misinterpret the "private" implicit in the current name.

Alternately, I could see moving towards a four-part separation:
- Internal Shortlist
- Scouting Interest
- Declare Interest to Agent
- Declare Interest to Media

Internal Shortlist - I'd be expected to use this much as we do, currently. My scouts might refer to it; if they happen to scout a game involving somebody on my internal shortlist, they would automatically scout him. It would not be public.

Scouting Interest - If I have a scout assigned to watch a player (e.g., "Scout 3 matches"), it would count as "scouting interest". If another team has a scout at the same match, our scouts might notice each other and we could have a chance of getting a warning about the other team's interest - though we wouldn't know who their scout was looking at. Likewise, the media would have a chance of noticing our scout, and then speculating as to who our scout was watching: it would provide grist for the rumour mill. (It might even become an interview question: who were you watching? Were you watching X?) Finally, we might be informed when big clubs' scouts visit our ground. Players with active "Scouting Interest", we would receive notice about any public/media events for that player - e.g., major injuries, public transfer bids, transfers completed, rumour stories, etc.

Declare Interest to Agent - We've expressed some interest in the player to the agent. We might get some immediate feedback. "Would not be interested in moving to such a small club at this time," or "Would be delighted to play for the club of his dreams," etc. The agent would leak the information - a WNT icon would appear. Flamboyant agents would be more likely to make a media story about it, spiking media rumours, press conference questions, etc. Agents with professionalism wouldn't make a big deal about it. The big plus would be the agent notifying us of any bid, bid accepted, contract offered, contract accepted, and transfer completed - even if that information was secret. In fact, the agent ought to inform us of terms of competing contract offers in an attempt to run a bit of an auction, getting two teams to offer increased contracts until one drops out.

Declare Interest to Media - Self explanatory, letting the media know that you are interested in a player. This might have motivating or demotivating effects on the player, as well as on players of the same position at your club. It ought to trigger plenty of media rumour, speculation, etc - it might even work as camoflauge if your scouts are looking at another player on the same club. It should also, obviously, constitute notifying the agent directly; he should thereafter keep you informed about that player.

What the UI would look like there, I'm not entirely sure. Do we really want to have to take three separate actions to get the current shortlist functionality? Or is this more like a "scale of interest" item, which we can ratchet up and down on a per-player basis?

[SCIAG]

Declare Interest to Agent - We've expressed some interest in the player to the agent. We might get some immediate feedback. "Would not be interested in moving to such a small club at this time," or "Would be delighted to play for the club of his dreams," etc. The agent would leak the information - a WNT icon would appear. Flamboyant agents would be more likely to make a media story about it, spiking media rumours, press conference questions, etc. Agents with professionalism wouldn't make a big deal about it. The big plus would be the agent notifying us of any bid, bid accepted, contract offered, contract accepted, and transfer completed - even if that information was secret. In fact, the agent ought to inform us of terms of competing contract offers in an attempt to run a bit of an auction, getting two teams to offer increased contracts until one drops out.

I think the whole idea there should revolve around agent personality and CA. Agents with higher professionalism and lower controversy would be less likely to release information, but also less likely to give you information. The opposite would also hold true.

In order to save SI time and stop them coding in hundreds of thousands of presumably fake agents, I think agent personality should depend on player personality. Their CA (which would affect information relayed to you that doesn't concern other clubs, etc.) should depend on CA, age and reputation of the player. You wouldn't be able to "see" anything about the agent, they wouldn't be named. Everything about them would be taken directly from the player they represented.

[SnakeXe]

I really like the 4-shortlist system Amaroq is proposing, it sounds like something you could really play around with