Twittergate (aka FM2010 work in progress screenshot)

[Miles Jacobson]

As I've seen from other posts on the forum, some of you have seen the FM2010 screenshot that got posted on twitter late last night. That'll trust me to experiment with twitpix late at night after a couple of vodkas...

There's no way for me to take it down that I can find so it's staying up, and it just goes to show the power of Twitter that it made it back onto the forums

Oh well, it's out there now, and it's my own fault, but also good for people to be able to see something, even though the new GUI is very much work in progress at the moment.

We're not going to be announcing anything about FM2010 until mid August, as that's the time when we should be "feature complete" and ready for proper screenshots. So speculate away, as you are already doing, but please understand that there will be no official word til then, or questions answered about the screenshot that is out there.

One other thing whilst I've got peoples attention. Again, this is something that I'll go into more detail on towards the end of next month at a guess, but we've recently restructured our QA team at SI to make it work better for us now that we're a larger studio (we currently have 60 full time members of the team here at SI, which has grown from 35 3 years ago).

As part of that restructure, Neil Brock is now working as a link between the forums and the studio, mainly from a QA point of view. This does not mean customer service, which is still provided by SEGA via their help system, but it means that suggestions will get logged into our features database, bug reporting from the forums to the dev team will be a lot smoother and informed, and things like FAQ's for FM2010 and beyond will be maintained by a team of people including Neil and SEGA's customer services team, so you should, in theory, always be able to find a solution to any common problem.
It should also lead to a few more mods, as Neil will be heading up the moderation of the forums, and over the coming months, new forum rules to try and make the forums a bit more friendly again, although it has been noted that it's been getting much better on here over the last few months.

What we would like is a way to get the forums back to the glory days when a lot of the dev team were regularly posting on here, providing feedback and getting feedback, which has been lost over the last couple of years for lots of different reasons. It's going to take time and patience, but we're confident that we'll get there.

Anyway, that's it for now. I'm going to go back into hiding, waiting for Sonic the Hedgehog to come and tell me off for the screenshot getting out there, and I'll be back mid next month with details of our next games.

If you are on Twitter, and not already following us, we can be found @si_games - it will be a good place to find out when we do post more info on FM2010, as we'll be tweeting links to stuff as it goes live. If you're interested in my ramblings (although I promise that there will be no more drunken screenshots being posted!) you can find me @milessi

[taylorsmen]

Serves you right for having one too many vodka's then

[elgreenio]

i always took you for an Appletini man tbh

[wills1987]

Nice to hear more information will be released mid-August, hopefully that'll prevent a few "When are we going to hear anything from SI?" threads that everyone knows and hates...

[AZBruntsfield]

Ah, I thought it was just to tease us... I'm intruiged by the sneak peak so far.

[Gauvner]

I reckon it was released on purpose, just to seem to hype it up then for a official post from The Man himself to say Mid-august. To stop all the nonsense posts & threads. Conspiracy is rife with this one...

[AZBruntsfield]

I reckon it was released on purpose, just to seem to hype it up then for a official post from The Man himself to say Mid-august. To stop all the nonsense posts & threads. Conspiracy is rife with this one...

Conspiracy theories start here. I suspect Sonic deliberately leaked it...

[Gauvner]

Maybe it Was released on purpose.

[HHUK]

I must say, a drunken leak or not, I'm glad to see that FM10 is in development and that it looks amazing.

[jayahr]

This is hilarious

*thinks of quitting booze to avoid committing the same kind of error*

[playmaker]

Miles, I think maybe you took the meaning of twitpic too literally!

[Miles Jacobson]

I reckon it was released on purpose, just to seem to hype it up then for a official post from The Man himself to say Mid-august. To stop all the nonsense posts & threads. Conspiracy is rife with this one...

You've been watching far too much X-files....

[andre_costa]

Miles : do you have someone new on the UI "department" ? No disrespect to former designers but this style looks ... well ... different from the old stuff. Much more clear/clean looking ... it kind of reminds me of Matt(Three|Four .. etc) skins. Great change, imo.

[Gauvner]

You've been watching far too much X-files....

Not denying it are you :P

[COOPER_NUFC]

Any chance of a link or something for those of us who arent on twitter? . Cheers.

[andre_costa]

There's already a couple threads about it with the link but here it is : http://twitpic.com/a9jzt

[SFraser]

What we would like is a way to get the forums back to the glory days when a lot of the dev team were regularly posting on here, providing feedback and getting feedback, which has been lost over the last couple of years for lots of different reasons. It's going to take time and patience, but we're confident that we'll get there.

Great news. I have always had the utmost respect for studios like CCP and Paradox Interactive for the way they communicate with their fans and involve the community directly in development, and I think they make all the better games for that.

[Ter]

Miles : do you have someone new on the UI "department" ? No disrespect to former designers but this style looks ... well ... different from the old stuff. Much more clear/clean looking ... it kind of reminds me of Matt(Three|Four .. etc) skins. Great change, imo.

Is it that obvious?

[antg1985]

I said I wasn't going to sign up to twitter but I have to now just in case he gets drunk again.

[andre_costa]

Great news. I have always had the utmost respect for studios like CCP and Paradox Interactive for the way they communicate with their fans and involve the community directly in development, and I think they make all the better games for that.

I agree but that also has to do a lot with them, at least in Paradox case, being a much more closer AND hardcore community(And smaller). CCP almost has to do it like most MMO developers. You'll also see that SI is much more active on the FML part of the forums.

[CaptainPlanet]

Could have linked to the screenie in the OP

[Suzie MUFC]

Could have linked to the screenie in the OP

Psst: http://twitpic.com/a9jzt

'Tis looking nice.

[peter-evo]

Yeah. No linkie

Edit: There is now!

[arsenal_2111]

I told you that Twitter was evil

[Neji]

I'm coming around to the idea that Twitter is actually useful. I've stumbled across information I've been looking for on Twitter and couldn't find it anywhere else in the past couple of days.

[javier_83]

vodka + twitter = screenie :O

i could give to you a mexican tequila and lets see if we got a video

jjejej thanks for the screen

[docklanders]

see, alcohol doesnt help anything, well, the person consuming it that is.

[SAFC1]

What i think is that it was released on purpose to see the feedback on the attemted new skin for FM10, and i believe they have done the right thing

I like the new look, i think it is alot more user-friendly on the eye and it looks as if you can easily pick out the buttons/tabs on the screen without stopping to think where things are. I would like to ENCOURAGE SI to go ahead with this skin, and i think i talk on behalf of most people that play the FM series

P.S - perhaps SI could create a dark skin version as well as the normal version to go with the game. It would add variety and keep alot of people happy ... just a thought

[mattant250]

What i think is that it was released on purpose to see the feedback on the attemted new skin for FM10, and i believe they have done the right thing

I like the new look, i think it is alot more user-friendly on the eye and it looks as if you can easily pick out the buttons/tabs on the screen without stopping to think where things are. I would like to ENCOURAGE SI to go ahead with this skin, and i think i talk on behalf of most people that play the FM series

+1

I would also urge SI and sega to have a look at this thread, as it has some really good ideas in it, regarding user interface and skinning: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=126305

[Molineux_Wolf]

I wonder what the reset button is for

[SFraser]

Resetting the calender back to Today's entry after you have scrolled through the dates?

The new UI looks very good, very functional and informative.

[andre_costa]

It's obviously a cheat button put there by Miles. Whenever Wimbledon is losing, he presses the button and the score goes back to 0-0.

[playmaker]

What i think is that it was released on purpose to see the feedback on the attemted new skin for FM10, and i believe they have done the right thing

I think if Miles wanted feedback he would have posted it on here and asked for it.

[SAFC1]

I think if Miles wanted feedback he would have posted it on here and asked for it.

So your saying once you have a couple of vodka's then you suddenly have the urge to post a W.I.P skin of FM10 ?

i dont know anything about the guy apart from that he obviously works for S.I ... but from my point of view, i thought it was setup . But if it was or if it wasnt, i still think it has been a positive for S.I to think about

[arsenal_2111]

So your saying once you have a couple of vodka's then you suddenly have the urge to post a W.I.P skin of FM10 ?

i dont know anything about the guy apart from that he obviously works for S.I ... but from my point of view, i thought it was setup . But if it was or if it wasnt, i still think it has been a positive for S.I to think about

Like he said, he was trying out adding images to Twitpix or whatever it's called and couldn't delete it.

Although why he would post something like that anyway is beyond me - maybe the aliens told him to

[arsenal_2111]

+1

I would also urge SI and sega to have a look at this thread, as it has some really good ideas in it, regarding user interface and skinning: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=126305

Thanks

Got to admit, I thought that would be the other graphics thread made by StanPetrov, this one.

[playmaker]

So your saying once you have a couple of vodka's then you suddenly have the urge to post a W.I.P skin of FM10 ?

i dont know anything about the guy apart from that he obviously works for S.I ... but from my point of view, i thought it was setup . But if it was or if it wasnt, i still think it has been a positive for S.I to think about

What I am saying is Miles is as blunt/direct/straight forward as they come, if he wanted feedback this would not be how he went about it.

Think about it... you want feedback on your new interface. Do you:

a) Post a thread with several pictures on a forum dedicated to your product, or
b) Post one single solitary picture somewhere else, hope someone finds it and starts a thread on the forum, all the while pretending it was an accident, saying it is a work in progress and not really inviting any feedback. And make yourself look a bit of a twerp in the process.

Trust me, this WAS a mistake. However, I don't think it has done any harm at all and does serve as a timely reminder that Eidos are not the only ones to have worked on their game.

[DivineOne]

That deserves a drink (or 2,3,4, ... )

[SAFC1]

What I am saying is Miles is as blunt/direct/straight forward as they come, if he wanted feedback this would not be how he went about it.

Think about it... you want feedback on your new interface. Do you:

a) Post a thread with several pictures on a forum dedicated to your product, or
b) Post one single solitary picture somewhere else, hope someone finds it and starts a thread on the forum, all the while pretending it was an accident, saying it is a work in progress and not really inviting any feedback. And make yourself look a bit of a twerp in the process.

Trust me, this WAS a mistake. However, I don't think it has done any harm at all and does serve as a timely reminder that Eidos are not the only ones to have worked on their game.

perhaps your right, and i certianly agree that it has been a positive thing. I think SI will keep a close eye on him to make sure he doesnt touch the bottle anytime soon

[peter-evo]

Like he said, he was trying out adding images to Twitpix or whatever it's called and couldn't delete it.

Although why he would post something like that anyway is beyond me - maybe the aliens told him to

Maybe posting FM09 rather than FM10 would have been a more logical thing to do. All this proves is that Miles is a lightweight.

Got to admit, I thought that would be the other graphics thread made by StanPetrov, this one.

Stop flattering yourself Good thread that, and the ideas just be taken on board aswell as Stan's.

[Stevicus]

Miles not the only one to make a balls up

[Paul Dejyothin]

I said I wasn't going to sign up to twitter but I have to now just in case he gets drunk again.

Vodka can be sent too....

Miles Jacobson
Sports Interactive
PO Box......

[Dreaded Walrus]

Anyway, that's it for now. I'm going to go back into hiding, waiting for Sonic the Hedgehog to come and tell me off for the screenshot getting out there, and I'll be back mid next month with details of our next games.

Plural? Is that just a typo or are we expecting multiple game announcements? Or is this just meaning FM Handheld as well as FM10?

[peter-evo]

New QA and mods is interesting too.

[small Mac]

I'm pleasantly suprised by that screenshot, the skin looks pretty good.

[Sweet-Zombie-Jesus]

Really like the new skin

[Come Clarity]

60 testers?
Did you rent the whole building or is it now battery testing?

[david22]

It looks more like a spreadsheet, less like a game now

[Ter]

60 testers?
Did you rent the whole building or is it now battery testing?

60 full-time staff members. Not just testers.

[Dreaded Walrus]

There is one thing about the skin that makes me worry, if this is the direction it ends up going in.

A lot has been made over the last few years over reducing the amount of clicking and mouse movement that is required for a player to reach the information and screens they are after. It seems to have been one of the main focuses if I remember, and I remember a lot being made of it in the unveiling of new skins over the past few iterations. It's what brought in all the little shortcut buttons at the top, and the breadcrumbs, and the extra continue button in the bottom-right corner, and so on.

This approach seems to be a complete reversal of that ideal, actually putting information further away from players. I mean, the most important stuff still seems to be One Click away (From the look of things, the Home screen, the Inbox, the Tactics screen, the News screen, Player Search, Squad screen, Calendar screen, and what looks like the fixtures screen), but it still looks like it will be putting information further away from players than before.

I still think the best option is to have a "customisable shortcuts" bar, similar to the shortcut buttons in FM09, except allowing users to put whichever screens they want there. For example in FM09 I view the Fixtures list a lot, which is something which would normally require two clicks (squad shortcut, then fixtures from there). I would add a shortcut to the fixtures list there. I also view the Staff Search screen (two clicks) quite regularly, along with the Board Room (two clicks) and Confidence (two clicks) screens. I think such an approach would allow players to have shortcuts to those screens they use regularly, whilst getting rid of those they barely touch (for me I rarely use the News, Transfer Rumours, Tutorial, Advisor, and Training shortcut buttons in FM09).

That's just my input anyway.

[Julius_]

Miles after this little mishap you should take a break. Go ahead and let loose, have a few vodkas and play on the Twitter. You deserve it

[phnompenhandy]

With the press leaks we keep getting subjected to when we make transfer inquiries, is this a case of life imitating FM?

[Argamas]

Vodka can be sent too....

Miles Jacobson
Sports Interactive
PO Box......

Any brand he likes the most? Any other booze? We'll do anything for more screenshots

They finally curbed drinking at football clubs in England, now moving on to FM/SI Games

[cynet]

Looks like a improvement over the predecessor but we are looking more towards game play changes and cosmetic is really in material when you great designers out there who make better skins but the interface looks more user friendly and that can only be a good thing.

[HarryMills]

Looks really good, much much better imo, am getting excited!

[bollekewol]

Looks weird at first, but a fresh look I have to say! I'm looking forward to this!
Can't we all save up for some more wodka? I'm dying to see more!

[Fox2k]

Besides a different skin have you guys done anything to fix the gameplay?

[stephan75]

I think it's really nice and clear, but i see there's a lot of space occupied by menus in the upper part of the screen and less on the sides. With all the widescreen monitors out now, wouldn't be a sidebar more user-friendly?

[Ter]

Besides a different skin have you guys done anything to fix the gameplay?

We're not going to be announcing anything about FM2010 until mid August

[iLLs]

This is new skin ? http://twitpic.com/a9jzt omg ;( it is horrible! I hope to be involved old 2009 skin in new game! :|

[Miles Jacobson]

So your saying once you have a couple of vodka's then you suddenly have the urge to post a W.I.P skin of FM10 ?

i dont know anything about the guy apart from that he obviously works for S.I ... but from my point of view, i thought it was setup . But if it was or if it wasnt, i still think it has been a positive for S.I to think about

It was more than a few and it severely clouded my judgement. My previous post on there had mentioned that I was mucking about with the new GUi, had lots of people (mainly friends, rather than forummites) asking me about it, and stupidly posted something. I won't make that mistake again.

I do agree that it's been a positive though. Might schedule to do it next year!

[cynet]

We're not going to be announcing anything about FM2010 until mid August

It's the middle of August now

You developers remind me of a girl i went out with once she was a tease and she was soon dumped dont do the same ill go i mean it

[Saxonaitor]

Miles, I think I know a way to delete pictures on twitter,

1. Have a vodka

2. Upload another picture (or 2)

3. PM me

4. Wake up next morning with no memory

[DanGLiverpool]

Vodka (and booze in general) is a lot cheaper in Gibraltar, so I could get quite a lot of the stuff for you at good prices

[playmaker]

Besides a different skin have you guys done anything to fix the gameplay?

Development of a new interface has zero impact on the development of gameplay as these are jobs assigned to different people.

[andre_costa]

However, development of a better new interface can have a significant impact on gameplay ^_^

[Dreaded Walrus]

It's the middle of July now

Fixed! You're about a month early mate!

[javier_83]

miles, did you have problem because of this?

[arsenal_2111]

miles, did you have problem because of this?

Judging by the reactions of SI staff and the amount of feedback they've been getting I'd assume and hope not.

[mattant250]

Thanks

Got to admit, I thought that would be the other graphics thread made by StanPetrov, this one.

tbh, i thought very highly of both yours and stanpetrov's, but yours stood out to me, because of the user friendliness in yours, which, I think, in the game's current state, when we have questions quite often about what different attributes mean, and what they affect, we would benefit from the actual explaination there for the user.

Got to admit, i had forgotten stanpetrov's idea, and I would certainly reccomend that as well as arsenal_2111's.

EDIT: lol I've just realised how many more comments my reference has given your thread

[R.P. McMurphy]

So did I get this right.. MJ was drunk and posted pic of FM10?

[arsenal_2111]

So did I get this right.. MJ was drunk and posted pic of FM10?

Well, yes...

[R.P. McMurphy]

Well, yes...

LOL

[Argamas]

So did I get this right.. MJ was drunk and posted pic of FM10?

He was drunk and needed the money. Nothing else happened!

[SFraser]

It should also lead to a few more mods, as Neil will be heading up the moderation of the forums, and over the coming months, new forum rules to try and make the forums a bit more friendly again, although it has been noted that it's been getting much better on here over the last few months.

If the Football Forum and Off Topic are anything to go by, you can think again. I just read a thread where a Moderator informs us that he sh*t his pants in his sitting room.

For an official game community forum this is easilly the worst I have ever seen. There is nothing that speaks "amateur" more than the company you keep and the behaviour you foster on these forum.

www.eveonline.com you are not and it doesn't look like you ever will be. Good to read that you really want to try, but it looks a long haul from amateur to professional fan involvement from where I am sitting, and reading.

These forums are not a good advert for your game and your company. Infact you probably couldn't get much worse if you tried.

But atleast I know how many prostitutes Dave screwed in Amsterdam last month. That's something atleast.

[arsenal_2111]

If the Football Forum and Off Topic are anything to go by, you can think again. I just read a thread where a Moderator informs us that he sh*t his pants in his sitting room.

For an official game community forum this is easilly the worst I have ever seen. There is nothing that speaks "amateur" more than the company you keep and the behaviour you foster on these forum.

www.eveonline.com you are not and it doesn't look like you ever will be. Good to read that you really want to try, but it looks a long haul from amateur to professional fan involvement from where I am sitting, and reading.

These forums are not a good advert for your game and your company. Infact you probably couldn't get much worse if you tried.

But atleast I know how many prostitutes Dave screwed in Amsterdam last month. That's something atleast.

To be fair, I think half of the problem is people who think they're God's gift to Earth writing up things that everyone already knows but using longer words to make themselves feel clever and popular.

[SFraser]

To be fair, I think half of the problem is people who think they're God's gift to Earth writing up things that everyone already knows but using longer words to make themselves feel clever and popular.

Personally speaking, I think the entire problem is not having a comfortable atmosphere for customers to discuss football and football manager without people like you butting in with personal insults and flagrant abuse.

A perfect case in point, thank you very much.

[arsenal_2111]

Personally speaking, I think the entire problem is not having a comfortable atmosphere for customers to discuss football and football manager without people like you butting in with personal insults and flagrant abuse.

A perfect case in point, thank you very much.

Whereas I feel the problem is a lack of community, with everyone taking everything people say as 100% serious and people feeling that there is no point even trying to have a bit of a laugh about something because they will be jumped on.

[andre_costa]

If the Football Forum and Off Topic are anything to go by, you can think again. I just read a thread where a Moderator informs us that he sh*t his pants in his sitting room.

For an official game community forum this is easilly the worst I have ever seen. There is nothing that speaks "amateur" more than the company you keep and the behaviour you foster on these forum.

www.eveonline.com you are not and it doesn't look like you ever will be. Good to read that you really want to try, but it looks a long haul from amateur to professional fan involvement from where I am sitting, and reading.

These forums are not a good advert for your game and your company. Infact you probably couldn't get much worse if you tried.

But atleast I know how many prostitutes Dave screwed in Amsterdam last month. That's something atleast.

Link to the eve-o forums is nice and all but it's a specialized forum aimed only at that game. This one is a forum for all the SI products and a lot less manageable. I guess if you want(ed) to make a fair comparison, you would compare the eve forums with the "Football Manager Forums" section of this one.

That's not to say that i don't agree that this forum needs to be better(specially about people being allowed to discuss stuff about the game without all the moaners trashing the threads), it certainly does, it's just ... compare apples to apples and not to oranges.

EDIT: however iif you think this community is "one of the worst you have ever seen", you really need to start browsing more official forums of other games/companies.

[Stevicus]

If the Football Forum and Off Topic are anything to go by, you can think again. I just read a thread where a Moderator informs us that he sh*t his pants in his sitting room.

For an official game community forum this is easilly the worst I have ever seen. There is nothing that speaks "amateur" more than the company you keep and the behaviour you foster on these forum.

www.eveonline.com you are not and it doesn't look like you ever will be. Good to read that you really want to try, but it looks a long haul from amateur to professional fan involvement from where I am sitting, and reading.

These forums are not a good advert for your game and your company. Infact you probably couldn't get much worse if you tried.

But atleast I know how many prostitutes Dave screwed in Amsterdam last month. That's something atleast.

You do like the forums, otherwise you wouldn't have racked up 900 posts here.

And FWIW, moderators crapping themseles in sitting rooms is an very good read indeed.

[roberto922]

Looks alright, glad to see less of the shortcuts though, never use them except the news and home buttons

[SFraser]

however iif you think this community is "one of the worst you have ever seen", you really need to start browsing more official forums of other games/companies.

I would, but I don't buy their games. For the games I do buy and the communities I do engage with, this is by far the worst. It's not even close.

No one with anything to write or discuss about this game properly posts here anymore, except to defend the game if they happen to have a vested interest in this site. While the football/thug community is ripe and wholesome the Football Manager community is dead and buried, because of posts like these that are welcomed and encouraged because they are not stopped.

To be fair, I think half of the problem is people who think they're God's gift to Earth writing up things that everyone already knows but using longer words to make themselves feel clever and popular.

Whereas I feel the problem is a lack of community, with everyone taking everything people say as 100% serious and people feeling that there is no point even trying to have a bit of a laugh about something because they will be jumped on.

It's all well and good wishing to communicate better with the fanbase, but who exactly are SI going to communicate with? This isn't a fansite or FM community. It is a developer blog in the middle of a horrific Off-Topic forum.

Basically it's rubbish. If I was developing a game and wanted to bring the development process closer to the community I would be scrapping this place and starting again, fast.

[Cityull]

There's already a couple threads about it with the link but here it is : http://twitpic.com/a9jzt

looks good!

[roberto922]

Sfraser - save it for another thread, this isn't the place for discussing whether the community is dead

[arsenal_2111]

It's all well and good wishing to communicate better with the fanbase, but who exactly are SI going to communicate with? This isn't a fansite or FM community. It is a developer blog in the middle of a horrific Off-Topic forum.

Basically it's rubbish. If I was developing a game and wanted to bring the development process closer to the community I would be scrapping this place and starting again, fast.

To be honest, if you hate these forums that much, why do you post here? Personally I like it in this forum.

There are a few members who I don't like so much, but there are way more that I do like. This is a community. I'm involved in it. The SI staff are involved in it. There are hundreds of people involved in it. Why? Because we want to be. We enjoy posting about Football Manager, the game we love. Who cares if the occasional thread contains a joke - I don't know about others but I'd much prefer a friendly, relaxed atmosphere than that site you linked to. I mean, that looks like a court document or something similar.

No, I have no interest in the game. But even if I did play that game I wouldn't want to be on those forums. Granted I've only looked in a couple of threads from there, but (apologies if you take offence to this) that forum looks like it has the personality of an apple.

Personally, I prefer having different types of people around here. I'm not going to say a forum is crap just because not everyone on there is as clever as each other. I'm not the sort of person who would want people to feel like they're not good enough to post on a forum, for someone to not take the chance to get help because they may not want to write out an essay. That type people will be here, on this site or on a new site. There will always be spammers, when there is a fanbase the size of Football Manager's that is inevitable.

From what you say, you don't like having a forum that is relaxed, not iron fisted. But that's the way this forum is. If you don't like it, tough.

[andre_costa]

To be honest, if you hate these forums that much, why do you post here? Personally I like it in this forum.

There are a few members who I don't like so much, but there are way more that I do like. This is a community. I'm involved in it. The SI staff are involved in it. There are hundreds of people involved in it. Why? Because we want to be. We enjoy posting about Football Manager, the game we love. Who cares if the occasional thread contains a joke - I don't know about others but I'd much prefer a friendly, relaxed atmosphere than that site you linked to. I mean, that looks like a court document or something similar.

No, I have no interest in the game. But even if I did play that game I wouldn't want to be on those forums. Granted I've only looked in a couple of threads from there, but (apologies if you take offence to this) that forum looks like it has the personality of an apple.

Personally, I prefer having different types of people around here. I'm not going to say a forum is crap just because not everyone on there is as clever as each other. I'm not the sort of person who would want people to feel like they're not good enough to post on a forum, for someone to not take the chance to get help because they may not want to write out an essay. That type people will be here, on this site or on a new site. There will always be spammers, when there is a fanbase the size of Football Manager's that is inevitable.

From what you say, you don't like having a forum that is relaxed, not iron fisted. But that's the way this forum is. If you don't like it, tough.

Now, while i disagree with SFraser on trying to compare this forum to others, saying this forum is "relaxed" is an exaggeration as far as they go.

I've been following the forums, although not posting, since 2003 and i'd say that 90% of the users are hyperactive kids that need something right here right now and if they don't get it, they're going to make some hissy fit. If it was this relaxed, there would be no reason for SI members to said they have been avoiding posting on the forums and only now it's becoming better.

[peter-evo]

I really didn't want to post my opinion on this matter but I really must put in my view on this.

This place has one of the best communities I have seen in terms of relationships and how relaxed I feel. I have not been posting in GD as much as I should be recently but that does not mean that these forums have gone downhill. It's a quiet time, but in it's prime, the discussion that goes on in all sections of the football manager forums is fantastic. That is why myself and many others are still here a year/years on from when we subscribed.

I feel I have made some 'friends' on here that I am very glad I came across. I enjoy posting here and feel I can post without anybody coming on top of me and punishing me for flawed views. The debate that goes on here is serious but not too serious. You can, generally, have a debate without personal attacks coming through.

The link you gave us just isn't my sort of thing. I am not into posting 5000 words and providing multiple graphs that provide all the evidence you would ever need to back up my point. It is just too serious. That's why I love this place, it's cool. Most people are chilled out and relaxed.

[SCIAG]

SFraser, that's so narrow minded it beggars belief. Try walking into FMS, or CSE, or if you have the stomach for it, LLM, and then tell me that there's no community on here. Even here, when the kids aren't around, there's a core of good users. OTF is also a forum where there are a few "wildcards" (the prositute threads are prime example) but those numbers are declining thanks to a spin off forum. There are even less, if any, of these "wildcards" in the Football Forum.

Well done on finding Serpico's thread, he must have posted that, what, two months ago?

[Stevicus]

SFraser, that's so narrow minded it beggars belief. Try walking into FMS, or CSE, or if you have the stomach for it, LLM, and then tell me that there's no community on here. Even here, when the kids aren't around, there's a core of good users. OTF is also a forum where there are a few "wildcards" (the prositute threads are prime example) but those numbers are declining thanks to a spin off forum. There are even less, if any, of these "wildcards" in the Football Forum.

Well done on finding Serpico's thread, he must have posted that, what, two months ago?

MEaning he has no right compaining about threads if he actively searches for them.

The forums might have a few members/threads that gets out of hand, leading to arguments and a vast clash of opinions, It doesn't mean it isn't a community.

[playmaker]

SI have acknowledged the problem with the forums, had a sticky topic running for months, created some new rules which will be implemented soon and appointed someone to oversee moderation. The ship has sailed on this topic, so let's get back to mocking Miles and admiring/having a hissy fit about the new interface.

[DanGLiverpool]

Just realised, Miles is also MJ.

Who needed Jacko when we have our own MJ, who hopefully will live a lot longer.

[ahmufcwafc]

SI have acknowledged the problem with the forums, had a sticky topic running for months, created some new rules which will be implemented soon and appointed someone to oversee moderation. The ship has sailed on this topic, so let's get back to mocking Miles and admiring/having a hissy fit about the new interface.

Weren't those rule changes etc. brought into place a good few months back?

[playmaker]

Weren't those rule changes etc. brought into place a good few months back?

I'm referring to Miles original post where he says there will new forum rules over the coming months.

[chopper99]

SFraiser again showing himself to be arrogant, ignorant and narrow minded?

Shocking

I'm sorry this forum isn't high brow enough for you, but if you don't like it you know what you can do.

[20LEGEND]

I agree with SFraser, OTF is a terrible forum. You can't even express xenophobic or racist views without being called an idiot

[Retro]

The man has serious problems. I'm actually feeling a bit sorry for him. He so wants to be seen as intelligent, but sadly fails to appreciate that the perception of intelligence is gained from what he says, not how he says it. He thinks if he uses uncommon words in his writing this will make him look clever, but it doesn't - it just makes him look like a man trying to be clever, it's too transparent.

There are plenty of intelligent posters in OTF, all of whom write in a conversational style. As I said earlier in the thread, even academics don't write in his style - because they want to be understood - the whole point of writing in the first place.

I've been on many forums over the years, and this is the only one I keep coming back to.

[wills1987]

I don't like the way that in this and the BNP thread, the minute people disagree with SFraser he stops posting in the thread, rather than trying to defend or justify himself...

[Bigwig]

I agree that the official FM forums aren’t as thriving as the unofficial ones, but I don’t think that’s for any of the reasons stated.

GQ used to be quite vibrant and full of discussion from both the userbase and developers but now it just seems to be full of patch queries and people posting their best XI and so on. People don’t tend to discuss the game in-depth because it’s heartbreaking when you type up a long, thought out thread discussing the transfer module only to have it slip off page one and into obscurity within a day because the forum is spammed so much.

[Retro]

That has always been the case. In 2000 I used to try and make some constructive points about the game that just got lost in the volume of posts, most of which didn't offer anything constructive.

So I went into Your Shout, and that became the place for constructive criticism for a few years - mainly because it remained outside the focus of the majority and was only found by regular visitors to the site. It was quite influential for a while, and the developers (mainly Marc Vaughan) did listen to us and did implement many of the ideas that came out of the discussion. I didn't do this because I thought what I had to say was more important - I just wanted to be heard.

Whining about things doesn't help and if you can't get on with anyone on a forum this size, then the issue is almost certainly not with the forum. There'll always be people you get on better with than others - there'll always be people who take a dislike to you for whatever reason, but one thing is true: if you can't get on with most of the people, it isn't because you're above them which is something SFraser either believes, wants to believe or is an image he wants to transmit. He needs to take a long hard look at his own behaviour, but maybe he's too afraid to do that - scared of what he'll find. I would be if I was him.

[andre_costa]

Hey all of you, awesome way of proving his points. Go you!