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Thread: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by mark g View Post
    Wasn't that the serialisation of an autobiography, rather than a regular slot? I agree there was someone.

    There was also souness after his heart attack i believe.
    Gerrard allowed his Autobiography to be serialised by the NOTW, which is the sister paper of The S*n. Souness gave an interview to The S*n back in the early 90's, causing uproar. Rightfully so (the uproar).

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Seems it was Rooney

    The Sun issued an apology "without reservation" in a full page opinion piece on 7 July, 2004, saying that it had "committed the most terrible mistake in its history". The Sun was responding to the intense criticism of Wayne Rooney, a Liverpool-born football star who still played in the city (for Everton, now for Manchester United) who had sold his life story to the newspaper. Rooney's actions had incensed Liverpudlians still angry with The Sun.

    The Sun's apology was somewhat bullish, saying that the "campaign of hate" against Rooney was organised in part by the Liverpool Daily Post & Echo, owned by Trinity Mirror, who also own the Daily Mirror, arch-rivals of The Sun. Thus the apology actually served to anger some Liverpudlians further. The Liverpool Echo itself did not accept the apology, calling it "shabby" and "an attempt, once again, to exploit the Hillsborough dead."

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by xnellyrx View Post
    haha. that really isn't me trolling, just because i cant be arsed to write a full paragraph showing my workings doesn't mean i'm not right or that i am trolling. seriously about one sentence s all i care to write about on this subject, as its a tired debate where no-ones views will ever change.

    it hasnt gone unnoticed that probably because im arguing with you, you threaten me with a banning but if i were arguing with anyone else i doubt you would step in.

    i am not trolling btw, its genuinely how i feel. ffs.
    Your starting to sound like some attention seeking kid. If you ain't got anything constructive to say about what is clearly a sensitive topic don't bother posting.

    This has been an excellent thread to read through other than your stupid little comments which I don't think anyone is really interested in reading about.

    Sorry to detract from the main discussion here but someone had to tell him.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    I think the isn't over the top, and the fans who lost their lives should be remembered.

    What does annoy me though is that no one ever seems to mention the fault of the supporters in this. Of course the actions of the Police cannot be ignored, but neither can the actions of the supporters. So many turned up without tickets and were gathering at the Leppings Lane end trying to to get in, and this obviously was partly the reason why this shocking event happened. That seems to get swept under the carpet, and people just blame the police, but they were not wholey at fault.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by tomtuck01 View Post
    What does annoy me though is that no one ever seems to mention the fault of the supporters in this.
    What annoys me is people coming into threads saying "what no-one ever seems to mention is.....", when if they'd bothered to read the thread they'd see that not only has it been mentioned, it's been one of the main points of the debate.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    And it was even mentioned in the Taylor Report as a contributing factor. The fact there were ticketless fans, doesnt suddenly exonerate the police from blame.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Is there a chance after what happen in Heysel effected the reaction after Hillsborough? I mean, do you think the police thought that their mistakes might get swept under the carpet after the reputation Liverpool fans gathered 5 years earlier? Same with the Sun, heard some dodgy reports, put 2 and 2 together and got 5. Don't want to seem offensive, as I understand both we slightly different situations and events.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by bell View Post
    And it was even mentioned in the Taylor Report as a contributing factor. The fact there were ticketless fans, doesnt suddenly exonerate the police from blame.
    I clearly stated that.

    Quote Originally Posted by mark g View Post
    What annoys me is people coming into threads saying "what no-one ever seems to mention is.....", when if they'd bothered to read the thread they'd see that not only has it been mentioned, it's been one of the main points of the debate.
    What annoys me is people being foolish enough to expect people to read every post in a thread.
    Last edited by tomtuck01; 16-04-2009 at 16:11.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    You're joining the middle of a debate, with your first post claiming to know what's gone on before. If you're going to try that without even skimming the less than 2 pages see where it's up to, more fool you.

    It's not even just this thread, i've literally never heard this debated without someone blaming the fans to some degree.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Unfortunately the fact that it could've been any set of fans also seems to escape most people.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by tomtuck01 View Post

    What annoys me is people being foolish enough to expect people to read every post in a thread.
    If you want to be part of a debate, then at least have the decency to read whats been posted, its just over a page ffs, not exactly a full nights read.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    IF the 'victums' get their wish and the 'truth' is told how they want it, will this then:

    Open up a wave of financial claims to compensate the 'victums'? Or has that already been sorted out?

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by Roolz View Post
    IF the 'victums' get their wish and the 'truth' is told how they want it, will this then:

    Open up a wave of financial claims to compensate the 'victums'? Or has that already been sorted out?
    I don't think its ever been about the money tbh.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    It may not have been but he has a good question, if they changed the cause of death to unlawful killing or whatever would it open up the compensation avenue?

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jep View Post
    I don't think its ever been about the money tbh.
    Im not saying it is and I am sure for the real victums that money will never EVER replace what they have lost or how their lives are affected.

    But its a legitimate question.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by Roolz View Post
    IF the 'victums' get their wish and the 'truth' is told how they want it, will this then:

    Open up a wave of financial claims to compensate the 'victums'? Or has that already been sorted out?
    Posted this earlier....


    Quote Originally Posted by Wee Aja View Post
    One thing I DO find staggering...

    No legal, moral or financial compensation came the families' way. The majority receiving little more than funeral expenses.
    In contrast, 14 police officers who were "traumatised" by what they saw that day picked up £1.2Million.
    Astonishingly, their claims for compensation were based on the insurers accepting that their superiors had been negligent...

    Disgraceful.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    i said it earlier and i will say it again, the game was a ticket match, people must have known that. It's the fans that turned up without a tickets fault no-one elses! not the police even though they opened the gate to allow fans in, they obviously didnt realise the stand was overpacked. and this JUSTICE thing is just nonsense, although if the police took responsibility i would love to never hear of Hillsborough again.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    i said it earlier and i will say it again, the game was a ticket match, people must have known that. It's the fans that turned up without a tickets fault no-one elses! not the police even though they opened the gate to allow fans in, they obviously didnt realise the stand was overpacked. and this JUSTICE thing is just nonsense, although if the police took responsibility i would love to never hear of Hillsborough again.
    It is there job to realise tbh.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    i said it earlier and i will say it again, the game was a ticket match, people must have known that. It's the fans that turned up without a tickets fault no-one elses! not the police even though they opened the gate to allow fans in, they obviously didnt realise the stand was overpacked. and this JUSTICE thing is just nonsense, although if the police took responsibility i would love to never hear of Hillsborough again.
    Read, and then apologise, dimwit.

    Were Fans Without Tickets a Major Factor in the Build-Up?
    It has become a fact of football life that fans do turn up at all-ticket matches without tickets. It is not possible to give an accurate figure or even a reliable estimate of the number without tickets on 15 April. Police
    estimates varied from about 200 to about 2,000. There were certainly frequent requests for tickets or "spares" during the hours before the build-up. Many of those warned off by the police were seen to return to the area.
    Some were hanging about on the bridge. Again, however, the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence.
    First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. The north stand still had many empty seats and the wing pens were sparse. The match being a sell-out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the Liverpool accommodation been full by 2.40 pm, one could have inferred that most or much of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.
    Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of 10,100 for which tickets had been sold. The Club's record showed 7,038 passed through turnstiles A to G.
    However, the counting mechanism on turnstile G was defective, so the HSE did a study using the video film and projecting figures from the other turnstiles. This gave an assessment of 7,494, with a maximum of 7,644 passing through A to G. Again, using the video, the HSE assessed the number who entered the ground whilst gate C was open at 2,240 with a maximum of 2,480. Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124.1 recognise that these can only be rough checks because, for example, some with terrace tickets were allowed through turnstiles 1 to 16 and there would be other similar factors which have not formed part of the assessment. Nevertheless, the figures do
    suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    i'm not going to apoligise, and i never will whatever evidence you give me

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Nothing I could post in here which hasn't already been said by the more sane posters.

    What does annoy me about Hillsborough is the fact that terracing is no longer allowed in top flight football due to the deaths of those people. Standing was not the issue, overcrowding was. With the standards we have today it would never happen again yet anytime the issue is brought up it seems to get beaten down by the families who lost someone that day & various other people involved. There is a certain hypocrisy amongst Liverpool fans too. I mean you know they're all there chanting "Justice for the 96" etc but you can bet your last quid that a number of them have been to games since it happened & tried jibbing in etc.

    I cannot complain about the media overkill really considering the coverage Munich got last year which also grew tiresome.

    Hillsborough was a kind of blessing really as it brought about major change in the way football matches were organised & grounds were made a lot safer. However it's also holding it back now I feel by not allowing standing to be reintroduced despite it not being one of the major contributing factors that day.

    Edit: Not really sure blessing is the right word but you get the drift.
    Last edited by Coldberg; 16-04-2009 at 18:55.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    i'm not going to apoligise, and i never will whatever evidence you give me
    Doesn't surprise me, not sure if you're a moron or a troll, but either way it was the answer i expected.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    haha, how can i be a moron?? when i happen to go to a private school

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Of course, having a rich dad excludes you from being a moron

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    haha, how can i be a moron?? when i happen to go to a private school
    I go to a private school and know lots of morons there. In fact that statement doesn't help your plight whatsoever.

    You bring some evidence to the table to prove why your right, rather than just using your opinions.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    The fact you go to a private school actualy increases the chance of you being a moron tbh.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    haha, how can i be a moron?? when i happen to go to a private school
    Priceless

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    hang on my dad aint rich, im just smart enough to get a grant to go there and i know im not a moron as im on for A*'s and A's for GCSE
    And tbh i didnt know much about Hillsborough until one of our teachers was on about before we broke up and most of my class agreed that it was the fans fault

  29. #129
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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Being intellectually smart does not exclude you from being a moron

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Prove that fans without tickets were the cause, or shut up and post elsewhere. Because no matter what evidence is posted you refuse to appologise for posting crap, and it seems like crap you cant even support you idiot.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    So your taking all your info from what your teacher has said?

    So that means your right?

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by mark g View Post
    Priceless
    and btw you do realise i am 14 and your 32 your more than twice my age and your taking the mick out of me, doesn't say much about yourself

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    And tbh i didnt know much about Hillsborough until one of our teachers was on about before we broke up and most of my class agreed that it was the fans fault
    So from a chat with a teacher the class were able to decide who was at fault?

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    my teacher is a liverpool fan who was blaming it on the police and even liverpool fans in my class said that it was the fans fault

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Age doesn't come into it, you shouldn't be treated differently just because you're 14

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    my teacher is a liverpool fan who was blaming it on the police and even liverpool fans in my class said that it was the fans fault
    Each successive post makes you look worse. Please stop.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Just curious but if your teacher told you that Hitler was actually correct & that all Jews were evil & deserved to die would you agree along with the rest of your class?

    Here's a hint, your teacher is a seemingly biased ******.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    well why are old people treated differently to me (65 and over bascially)

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    my teacher is a liverpool fan who was blaming it on the police and even liverpool fans in my class said that it was the fans fault
    Oh them being from Liverpool makes it ok then, the fact having no evidence what so ever to support the opinion is kinda the part that lets the arguament down though.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    This is brilliant, people in your class who weren't even born when the event occured all agreed it was the fans fault.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    and btw you do realise i am 14 and your 32 your more than twice my age and your taking the mick out of me, doesn't say much about yourself
    36 actually. You want to come and debate adult topics, that's fine, but don't expect not to get called on it when you spout crap that you can't back up just because of your age.

    So what's so special about this teacher and your class that they know more about what went on at Hillsborough than Lord Justice Taylor?

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    tbh im just going to ignore you all and say i am glad this event happened and them scousers died!

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    You realise you're gonna get about 20 reports for that you nasty little git?

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    i'm not going to apoligise, and i never will whatever evidence you give me
    Congratulations. You're a complete ****wit. Well done. Have a sticker.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    nelly and jimmy ret*rded or just idiots?

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    tbh im just going to ignore you all and say i am glad this event happened and them scousers died!
    your a ****ing idiot.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by mark g View Post

    So what's so special about this teacher ?
    Seems like the pupils are 'special' rather than the teacher.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Can we just get back to the conversation now?

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    tbh im just going to ignore you all and say i am glad this event happened and them scousers died!
    Ah man, you're my hero. That's without doubt the most profoundly shocking thing I've ever read on the internet. Fair play for being the only person brave enough to say what everyone else was thinking.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    You could see it coming tbh, he was building up to it.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wee Aja View Post
    Can we just get back to the conversation now?
    What's the point. We can produce facts. We can use logic. We can copy direct from the Taylor report. And still you'll get morons making out that their unfounded opinion is just as valid. Painful to read. Why people can't take the chance to actually learn more rather than simply repeat what they've always assumed is just baffling in the extreme.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    jimmyriddle is David Duckinfield's son, and I claim my fiver.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    **** me .

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    tbh im just going to ignore you all and say i am glad this event happened and them scousers died!
    A little OTT there

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    all threads like these should just be banned on forums as it nearly always ends up with idiots who are about 12 thinking they're rocky balboa behind a computer screen.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by chopra_hill View Post
    all threads like these should just be banned on forums as it nearly always ends up with idiots who are about 12 thinking they're rocky balboa behind a computer screen.
    Sad reality, Chops.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    First time i've ever reported a post/user on here.

    I know others probably have too, but my god what an idiot.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    I did .

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    No, I don't think it was OTT. It was one of the worst disasters in UK football history, it was the 20th anniversary, 96 people went to a football match and didn't come back thanks to the criminal negligence of the police and no one has ever taken the blame.

    Why should a whole community just take it and shut up about it anyway?

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    I reported him as soon as I saw it, s you might have guessed from my comment

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    haha, how can i be a moron?? when i happen to go to a private school
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    tbh im just going to ignore you all and say i am glad this event happened and them scousers died!
    the youth of today, etc etc.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by James07? View Post
    What's the point. We can produce facts. We can use logic. We can copy direct from the Taylor report. And still you'll get morons making out that their unfounded opinion is just as valid. Painful to read. Why people can't take the chance to actually learn more rather than simply repeat what they've always assumed is just baffling in the extreme.
    I've read quite a bit of the interim report today. If anyone is interested, here are the links:
    Interim Report
    Final Report

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Just to expand on that, if you're interested in the causes of Hillsborough, you want the interim. The final was more about what to do in the future to make football safer. That was one of the criticisms of the report, that calling them interim and final meant far more credence and attention was given to the second one, when really they were two separate reports looking at different aspects.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Jimmy got a week off for his troubles. And he should be glad it was just a week.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    When he returns, am I allowed to say that I'd be glad for him and all his family to die?

    the little ****

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    He shouldn't be allowed back at all.

    There's no excuse for it.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    forum rules always seemed to have been a bit dodgy as to what does or does not constitute a permaban..

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Should have been banned forever tbh.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by bell View Post
    Jimmy got a week off for his troubles. And he should be glad it was just a week.
    Too lenient IMO.

    At least 2 weeks would have been better but IMO, I think it should have been a life ban.

    And, he proved he was a tw** by saying he went to a private school.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyriddle View Post
    haha, how can i be a moron?? when i happen to go to a private school
    It is quite clear that your more than a moron.

    Only a small amount of people that go to private schools aren't t***s

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Ahem... he's erm, 14.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    how can that be a one week ban?

    that is a ****ing disgrace. this place really is a shambles when a post like that gets a one week ban.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    don't think it was right that some of the speekers at the service were having a dig at people like the guy who started slagging off the guy who is head of yorkshire police. Yes it was a terrible accident but it was an accident. There were mistakes made by the police but their was also mistakes made by the liverpool fans who turned up without tickets. The club should have told fans without tickts to stay away from the stadium and area surrounding. The service should just be left as a memory to the people who died and not have people trying to pin all responsability on people when it was clearly an accidental death like the original report found

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Anyway back to the debate at hand please

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshyboy1984 View Post
    Ahem... he's erm, 14.
    There are people younger than 14 on here and they don't say anything like that.

    His age makes no difference IMO.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Little ******* should get 96 day ban tbh.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by monkeywool View Post
    No, I don't think it was OTT. It was one of the worst disasters in UK football history, it was the 20th anniversary, 96 people went to a football match and didn't come back thanks to the criminal negligence of the police and no one has ever taken the blame.

    Why should a whole community just take it and shut up about it anyway?
    I agree with this.

    They should keep it in the memory so, that the people are remembered and so, it serves as a reminder.

    It is a shame that this had to happen for things to change in football stadia.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeytwigge View Post
    don't think it was right that some of the speekers at the service were having a dig at people like the guy who started slagging off the guy who is head of yorkshire police. Yes it was a terrible accident but it was an accident. There were mistakes made by the police but their was also mistakes made by the liverpool fans who turned up without tickets. The club should have told fans without tickts to stay away from the stadium and area surrounding. The service should just be left as a memory to the people who died and not have people trying to pin all responsability on people when it was clearly an accidental death like the original report found
    Read my earlier post re. ticketless fans.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by pnefc22 View Post
    There are people younger than 14 on here and they don't say anything like that.

    His age makes no difference IMO.
    Maybe, but a permaban seems a little harsh for a youngun who threw out a comment purely designed to **** people off.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by mark g View Post
    Read my earlier post re. ticketless fans.
    I was just about to point that out. They estimated that the total number of fans in the whole terrace was between 96% and just 24 supporters more than 100% of the official capacity.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    for anyone interested, purefun has changed the ban to a permanent ban.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    What he said was totally out of order but I don't see why all those who are insulting him aren't receiving infractions too. There really needs to be a sticky of some kind drawn up to show what bannable offences are & stuff because at the minute it's a total joke. I mean the other month Serpico called people '*****' but he said it's okay because they aren't registered here. Using that logic what jimmyriddle posted was totally fine as the people he insulted aren't registered on this forum.

    Of course you could give the reason for the infraction as 'trolling' but then that would involve infracting a load of other posters

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulHartman71 View Post
    for anyone interested, purefun has changed the ban to a permanent ban.
    fair play to him.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldberg View Post
    What he said was totally out of order but I don't see why all those who are insulting him aren't receiving infractions too. There really needs to be a sticky of some kind drawn up to show what bannable offences are & stuff because at the minute it's a total joke. I mean the other month Serpico called people '*****' but he said it's okay because they aren't registered here. Using that logic what jimmyriddle posted was totally fine as the people he insulted aren't registered on this forum.

    Of course you could give the reason for the infraction as 'trolling' but then that would involve infracting a load of other posters

    It's a bit different calling someone a **** compared to saying your glad they all died.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    I still agree with what you said earlier Chops.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    He posted it to get a reaction, he did. People post stuff to get a reaction all the time without penalty.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    It would be nice if the reaction could cease now too.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by James07? View Post
    if the policing and stewarding had been up to scratch on the day
    You could arguably say that the policing at many football matches at the time weren't up to scratch and something similar could easily have happened.

    a) you'd not have had the level of crushing outside
    It seems that the design of the ground was largely at fault, as well. They seemed to be well past their time. One of the good things to come from this disaster was bringing English grounds up to scratch.

    b) the decision to open the gate without any thought for the consequences.
    To be fair, at the time I'd say they thought that opening the gates would have been the best option.

    At a league deciding match at Cork City's home ground back in 2005, there was about 10,000 in the ground and I read that an extra 500 ticketless Derry fans (away side) were let in, as the police felt it would be better to have them inside rather than roaming the streets of Cork. Presumably, it was similar circumstances with Hillsborough.

    Like they had the pervious year when the two same teams met at the same ground? This isn't an issue of hindsight. It's an issue that the match commander (who was new to the job) decided to ignore the plans that had been in place for previous games and do his own thing...
    Perhaps they were simply riding their luck, then? Reading the posts from this thread, a lot of people are saying that it could have easily been any given game, but it was this one by chance.

    This report is about overcrowding in the terraces at a GAA match in Cork. The gates were opened and fans allowed to sit along the perimetre of the pitch. Perhaps, any other day, the Gardaí would have chosen to leave the gates shut and a crush would have ensued. Of course, if there ever were deaths due to this in Páirc Uí Chaoimh (the stadium in the above link) people would say why this has never happened, when, in fact, it has.

    Those mistakes go way beyond being anything that could be dismissed as 'one of those things' – they were not unavoidable.
    Accidents are generally very avoidable. When they happen, we can't undo them, unforunately. The best thing we can do is learn from them and make sure they never happen again.

    And that’s just covering the issues in the direct run up to the incident. The lies, cover-ups, excuses and buck passing that started at about 3pm on that day has continued for 20 years. Nobody has ever been held accountable – nobody has officially taken the blame. Nobody lost a penny of their wages or a day’s liberty for the horrendous mistakes made that day.
    Did the policeman not take full responsibility for opening the gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by mark g View Post
    It was volume of people in the particular pens that caused the crush. there was enough space in the leppings lane itself, as CCTV footage shows the side pens were well below their capacity.
    Just like the link I have above, there was plenty of space at the back of the terraces in the potential crush and I'd imagine that was the case in other events, too. Bad stewarding, but also the design of the ground (in Páirc Uí Chaoimh's case, the low entry points onto the terrace).

    Harder to learn from events when the police try to cover up what actually happened, wouldn't you say?
    Well, England have some of the safest grounds in the world, so seemingly, lessons have been learned.

    The crush was caused because they weren't getting people inside the ground quick enough as kick off approached. Rather than opening the gate, they simply needed to delay the kick off and announce that fact. Plus of course the greater space outside makes a crush easier to avoid and easier to police people.
    Similarly, in my above link, it was people arriving close to the throw-in (GAA's kick-off) that caused such trouble and further confusion to police - I'm not blaming the fans, by the way, they can arrive whenever they please. Lack of security, however, gave the exisiting stewards and Gardaí a harder job. The main difference between Hillsborough and Páirc Uí Chaoimh was that the latter had no deaths. It could easily have been the case, though, just like many other football matches in England at the time.

    It doesn't have to be planned to not be an accident. If people fail in their basic duty of care by the actions they take (or fail to take), that's negligence if people in their position could reasonably be expected to have taken those actions, which appears to be the case for at least some of the decisions taken on that day.
    Eye witness reports can be misleading. I remember reading an article on Hillsborough, where the writer said, as he was drifting into unconciousness, that he mouthed "Help" to a policeman, who just nodded his head and smiled. Do you really think that if the cop knew what was really happening, he would have done that?

    It's all very well claiming hindsight, but plenty of high profile matches had been held safely despite similar circumstances occuring.
    Again, were they? To echo the sentimenets of a few people on hear, no casualties doesn't mean safety.

    That's not to say it's all Duckenfields fault, but there's little doubt that his actions both contributed to the disaster, and that they were not consistent with what could be expected of an officer of his position and rank.
    There's not a lot I can say to that, but any other day, things could have panned out differently. Then, perhaps England would still be ripe with unsafe grounds and a substandard amount of security. Unfortunately, it usually takes a tragedy for people to sit up and take notice.
    Last edited by Paz-CCFC; 16-04-2009 at 20:57.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Let me preface this so it's not interpreted the wrong way. Any time someone dies from negligence at a sporting event meant for entertainment, it is terribly sad. When it is nearly a hundred it certainly is a depressing tragedy, all the more so when it is preventable.

    But perhaps it's because Hillsborough occurred before my time or on soil foreign to me, but doesn't the coverage devoted to this tragedy above and beyond similar, more recent fan disasters reek a little of ethnocentric tendencies? Just two weeks ago at a full international game in the Ivory Coast, 19 people were crushed to death when the fans pressed forward after police fired tear gas into the crowd and 132 injured. Shouldn't there be more of an outcry about that event if people truly are still sensitive to disasters such as Hillsborough?

    Granted, this isn't meant to call out anyone in particular because it seems to be a weakness in human nature. Just a comment on which events grab our attention and embed themselves in our memories.
    Last edited by Ceching You Out; 16-04-2009 at 21:02.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    It's all very well claiming hindsight, but plenty of high profile matches had been held safely despite similar circumstances occuring.
    I know this hasn't personally happened to me but while we were watching the memorial my dad said about some of the big matches he'd been to where the terrace stands hand been rocking about from the amount of fans moving about in them.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by mark g View Post
    It's not even just this thread, i've literally never heard this debated without someone blaming the fans to some degree.
    I was more meaning about the media to be honest. I personally have never heard them lay any blame at the feet of the fans when talking about the issue of Hillsborough.

    But point taken, I should have read more of the thread.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceching You Out View Post
    Let me preface this so it's not interpreted the wrong way. Any time someone dies from negligence at a sporting event meant for entertainment, it is terribly sad. When it is nearly a hundred it certainly is a depressing tragedy, all the more so when it is preventable.

    But perhaps it's because Hillsborough occurred before my time or on soil foreign to me, but doesn't the coverage devoted to this tragedy above and beyond similar, more recent fan disasters reek a little of ethnocentric tendencies? Just two weeks ago 19 people were crushed when the fans pressed forward after police fired tear gas into the crowd and 132 injured. Shouldn't there be more of an outcry if people truly are still sensitive to disasters such as Hillsborough?

    Granted, this isn't meant to call out anyone in particular because it seems to be a weakness in human nature. Just a comment on which events grab our attention and embed themselves in our memories.
    Having not heard or seen about that particular incident, I must say I am horrified to hear about it. There should be outcries about these kind of incidents. They shouldn't happen but unfortunately they do.

    I remember I was sitting at home when the disaster happened and from what I recall (which I admit may be different to what really happened), I recall seeing live on TV. I was numb - I just couldn't believe what I was seeing. Even now part of me refuses to believe it happened when I see a repeat of the pictures on TV.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by roberto922 View Post
    I know this hasn't personally happened to me but while we were watching the memorial my dad said about some of the big matches he'd been to where the terrace stands hand been rocking about from the amount of fans moving about in them.

    Wouldn't argue that certain of the circumstances could have led to problems and even deaths in another time and another place. The point is that that can still be true without absolving the police for the scale of this particular one. Sorry to refer to the Taylor report again, but it's very clear on the point that for all the inherent problems that needed fixing (and thankfully the majority were for once), the huge proportion of the blame for Hillsborough specifically fell on the policing on that day.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by tomtuck01 View Post
    I was more meaning about the media to be honest. I personally have never heard them lay any blame at the feet of the fans when talking about the issue of Hillsborough.

    But point taken, I should have read more of the thread.
    No problem. I was probably a bit harsh anyway, as it gets me quite worked up to hear some of the same old lies and half truths come trotting out time and time again.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by LFCfan View Post
    Having not heard or seen about that particular incident, I must say I am horrified to hear about it. There should be outcries about these kind of incidents. They shouldn't happen but unfortunately they do.
    Link here

    Happens all too frequently in Africa still. From the article:

    Riots and crushes are common at African football stadiums, which are frequently overcrowded. Last September 11 people were killed in a stadium riot in the Democratic Republic of Congo and in June eight people died in a crush in Liberia. Fifa instigated a programme of inspections across Africa before the 2010 World Cup qualifiers and Abidjan's stadium had been passed as safe for international matches.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceching You Out View Post
    Let me preface this so it's not interpreted the wrong way. Any time someone dies from negligence at a sporting event meant for entertainment, it is terribly sad. When it is nearly a hundred it certainly is a depressing tragedy, all the more so when it is preventable.

    But perhaps it's because Hillsborough occurred before my time or on soil foreign to me, but doesn't the coverage devoted to this tragedy above and beyond similar, more recent fan disasters reek a little of ethnocentric tendencies? Just two weeks ago at a full international game in the Ivory Coast, 19 people were crushed to death when the fans pressed forward after police fired tear gas into the crowd and 132 injured. Shouldn't there be more of an outcry about that event if people truly are still sensitive to disasters such as Hillsborough?

    Granted, this isn't meant to call out anyone in particular because it seems to be a weakness in human nature. Just a comment on which events grab our attention and embed themselves in our memories.
    I don't think it's anything more than perfectly understandable human nature to be more affected by events that happen in their own country and stadia, especially ones that they see unfolding live in front of them.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    something that hasnt really been mentioned so far is the events 5 years earlier at Heysel, If the events at Hillsbourough are down to the Polices organistion and activities - or lack of acticity ( which i think its largely accepted they are ) I think the 39 deaths at Heysel are at the very least partially the fault of the fans.

    Because of this, could this be one of the reasons that the press and Police were so happy to believe that it could have been the fault of the Liverpool supporters and not the Police at the game?

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by mark g View Post
    I don't think it's anything more than perfectly understandable human nature to be more affected by events that happen in their own country and stadia, especially ones that they see unfolding live in front of them.
    To see it unfold in front of you makes the event 100% personal and certainly would leave a lasting impact on your life.

    For those who did not experience it live, I still agree, but then your statement forces one closer to acknowledging what about this disaster has an affect on you.

    Is it simply the death of spectators at a sporting event? Probably not when similar events elsewhere don't cause the same reaction.

    Is it the death of spectators, whom you could imagine being, at a sporting event?

    Of course there are a nearly infinite number of options. Personally, I think the second case describes some of the people caught up in sensationalism around this disaster. It makes some of the showings of emotions for this disaster a bit more selfish and cheapens the genuine grief.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    While that's a possibility on the part of the press, it's not an excuse, as they have a duty to have sources to back up their allegations. In the case of the police, they didn't believe it was the fans, they deliberately covered up the truth to attempt to deflect blame away from themselves.

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    Default Re: Media coverage of Hillsborough. Please do not read if a Liverpool fan...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceching You Out View Post
    To see it unfold in front of you makes the event 100% personal and certainly would leave a lasting impact on your life.

    For those who did not experience it live, I still agree, but then your statement forces one closer to acknowledging what about this disaster has an affect on you.

    Is it simply the death of spectators at a sporting event? Probably not when similar events elsewhere don't cause the same reaction.

    Is it the death of spectators, whom you could imagine being, at a sporting event?

    Of course there are a nearly infinite number of options. Personally, I think the second case describes some of the people caught up in sensationalism around this disaster. It makes some of the showings of emotions for this disaster a bit more selfish and cheapens the genuine grief.
    Not sure i agree with that. It's not selfish to not empathise and grieve equally to all events, it's an automatic defence mechanism that stops you otherwise being overwhelmed with emotion. If you talk to anyone who sees what should be emotional trauma on a regular basis such as hospital staff, police, paramedics etc, they'll tell you that you develop a thick skin to such things. However, there are always certain things that will break through that and still affect you, and they're different for everyone and personal in some way.

    It works on the same principal for the general public in terms of large scale disasters. If you reacted with the same level of emotion to merely numbers of deaths no matter where in the world, what happened etc, you couldn't function. So people develop their own "armour", and naturally the things that affect people more are those that are closer to home in some way.

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