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Thread: this makes me so angry

  1. #1
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    Default this makes me so angry

    i hate game's like this and i suffer way to many of them. what more can ya do?

    [img]http://static3.filefront.com/images/...kyqzpvjftq.jpg[/img]
    Last edited by Wayne\'o; 03-03-2009 at 18:43.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Please change the last bracket to [/img] so that the picture gets visible.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Unlucky there mate.

    Dont let Hammer1000 see this thread, he will just turn it into another masive debate on the ME

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne\'o View Post
    i hate game's like this and i suffer way to many of them. what more can ya do?

    http://static3.filefront.com/images/...kyqzpvjftq.jpg
    Get a better keeper??

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    It's only Millwall

    Tough luck mate, though being 3-0 up at half time with Lpool against Man City, to go on to lose 4-3 is 10 times worse, trust me!

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    thing is thats just one match i have shown. i could find 10 or more like that this season. i think every game i have lost. i have dominated like that, even the games i win, the AI are the team with the ball possesion, it's a one sided ME and i dont think it's realistic to happen so many games..

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    The away team had 5 shots on target and scored one. The home team had 2 shots on target and scored both. Doesn't seem that unusual to me. Am I missing something?

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    the fact after dominating the game they score from the only 2 shots that were on target, and one of them was from 30 yards or so, this happens way to much.. if you can set a formation up that will conceed posession, your chances are 70% to win, i thought more oftern than not, teams with more posession won matches.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne\'o View Post
    the fact after dominating the game they score from the only 2 shots that were on target, and one of them was from 30 yards or so, this happens way to much.. if you can set a formation up that will conceed posession, your chances are 70% to win, i thought more oftern than not, teams with more posession won matches.
    But surely if you play an attacking system and they play counter-attacking, you'd expect a match to go that way, for example (I'm not saying that either of the two teams played that way, I'm just offering an explanation). I just think that's a rather mild example you've provided.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    I'm not sure you can claim it happens too often if you're only going to post one screenshot. I would need about ten, all of which need to be quite close together, to be convinced.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne\'o View Post
    thing is thats just one match i have shown. i could find 10 or more like that this season. i think every game i have lost. i have dominated like that, even the games i win, the AI are the team with the ball possesion, it's a one sided ME and i dont think it's realistic to happen so many games..
    You would do if you had the same poor keeper!

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Having the lions share of the Possession statistic only shows that you had the ball, it doesn't show where and it doesn't really indicate dominance. If you're being kept back and are passing the ball around the back, looking for a way through then though you have the ball, you're being dominated. The Possession statistic will rise in your favour but won't show why you had the majority of the possession.

    Teams with more possession don't win football matches just because they have more possession, it's what is done with it that matters. It takes one shot to score a goal, and if with only ten percent of possession total that shot is made successfully, then that goal can win the game.

    Like all statistics in football, you need to look at more than one to get the story of the game.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    more screen shots to follow then

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    I've had so much worse and still lost

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Four matches is not enough. I also can't see the dates those matches took place on. But even if I could, you'd need more than four to prove there's a problem. And even then, you'd need lots of screenshots from a good chunk of other people to prove there was a real problem here.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Admitedly, you'd normally find that the team with the highest amount of possession wins, but it all depends on your tactics. Like I said, if one team is playing attacking, and the other is counter attacking, or pressing, it wouldn't be surprising at all to see the team with the lower possession winning.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Wayno, dont bother trying to explain yourself mate, i've been there a 1000 times and always get shot down by the obviously short sighted.

    I'm with you mate and there are plenty of others who agree, believe me.

    There are a lot of brown noses sniffing about on these boards.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer1000 View Post
    Wayno, dont bother trying to explain yourself mate, i've been there a 1000 times and always get shot down by the obviously short sighted.

    I'm with you mate and there are plenty of others who agree, believe me.

    There are a lot of brown noses sniffing about on these boards.
    Settle down son. It's not about brown nosing or being short sighted. It's about different views. I've given a perfectly valid reason for it. It's not happening all the time for all players - if it were I'd be first in the queue of people saying that there was a problem. As it is, I do think it could have something to do with the way some people line up their teams. A good test of this is to check the AI results.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Quote Originally Posted by GillsMan View Post
    Settle down son. It's not about brown nosing or being short sighted. It's about different views. I've given a perfectly valid reason for it. It's not happening all the time for all players - if it were I'd be first in the queue of people saying that there was a problem. As it is, I do think it could have something to do with the way some people line up their teams. A good test of this is to check the AI results.
    Yep, and fair play to Wayne'O for trying to put together a proper argument with evidence. There's not enough of that round here. More often than not, people react to being disagreed with by bandying around terms like "brown nosing". Now where have I seen that lately..?

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    well it would be easier to let you have my save game, 90% of games won are by teams with less possesion, I cant say i alter the way i play that much. because other than pressing and offensive play beeing defensive just ends up losing 4-0 or somthing, at least with attacking it takes some presure off the team now and then..

    all i can say is thank god my CB can score from corners, he is my top scorer with 13 goals from 32 games..

    ME is flawed and unless you know how to exploit it your doomed..

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Please don't send me your save game. I'd rather lose the argument, to be honest!

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    your safe lol, i just can't be arsed to take more screen shots, may be its because my team is still blending?

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne\'o View Post
    well it would be easier to let you have my save game, 90% of games won are by teams with less possesion, I cant say i alter the way i play that much. because other than pressing and offensive play beeing defensive just ends up losing 4-0 or somthing, at least with attacking it takes some presure off the team now and then..

    all i can say is thank god my CB can score from corners, he is my top scorer with 13 goals from 32 games..

    ME is flawed and unless you know how to exploit it your doomed..
    Having looked at some AI results myself, I do think that slightly too many of the teams that win had the least possession, however, I didn't look at the games at all, so it's not that scientific an observation. I can't say whether it's the ME or the AI's tactics that could do with tweaking however. I still don't believe it a major issue, but it probably happens a little too often from the very brief look at it I've had.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    So what is the best thing to do? im deoping points i feel i should gain and my know how or lack of it cant seem to do any thing about it?

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    I was once 4-0 up with 9 min to go vs Bologna as Napoli.

    I put in 3 youngsters (with decent stats) for their debut.

    I walked away, came back 15 min later to a 5-4 loss. LOL. I never walk away from the screen again and watch all my games in full match mode.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Dear God, not this again.

    Wayne, the exact same thing is discussed here at length:
    http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=103509
    Last edited by RT--; 03-03-2009 at 21:18.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer1000 View Post
    Wayno, dont bother trying to explain yourself mate, i've been there a 1000 times and always get shot down by the obviously short sighted.

    I'm with you mate and there are plenty of others who agree, believe me.

    There are a lot of brown noses sniffing about on these boards.
    Man, you're tiresome.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    A common issue behind such results is a total unwillingness to look at the context of a match. I played a game with a poor user tactic and ended up with a huge possession and shot advantage, despite losing 4-0. Via the match stats screen, I looked dominant. However, when watching the match through, I was getting my backside handed to me for the first 25 mins, after which time they had gone 2-0 up. It was only at that point the match stats began to shift in my favour, as they began to sit back, soak up pressure and hit me on the counter.

    Although I pounded their goal, I only created one CCC, whereas for their next two goals, they broke against an undermanned defence and scored pretty easy put aways, even if only one showed as a CCC. The non CCC, which was the last goal in the last minute, I knew was coming as my team was totally demoralised. They simply left too much time and space on the edge of the area for the opposing MC who could pick his spot with some ease.

    I always, always look with some suspicion on such dominant match stats with regular losses. Firstly, winnign the possession battle doesn't always gurantee results, especially if you only start doing so when you are a goal or two down. Secondly, if you are always doign this, you obviously have no counter-attacking, tighter Plan B to go to when the team is having a poor day, in which you are trying to soak up pressure and score on the break. If you always play slower, wide tactics, you'll do well possession wise, but you'll struggle defensively.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    A common issue behind such results is a total unwillingness to look at the context of a match. I played a game with a poor user tactic and ended up with a huge possession and shot advantage, despite losing 4-0. Via the match stats screen, I looked dominant. However, when watching the match through, I was getting my backside handed to me for the first 25 mins, after which time they had gone 2-0 up. It was only at that point the match stats began to shift in my favour, as they began to sit back, soak up pressure and hit me on the counter.

    Although I pounded their goal, I only created one CCC, whereas for their next two goals, they broke against an undermanned defence and scored pretty easy put aways, even if only one showed as a CCC. The non CCC, which was the last goal in the last minute, I knew was coming as my team was totally demoralised. They simply left too much time and space on the edge of the area for the opposing MC who could pick his spot with some ease.

    I always, always look with some suspicion on such dominant match stats with regular losses. Firstly, winnign the possession battle doesn't always gurantee results, especially if you only start doing so when you are a goal or two down. Secondly, if you are always doign this, you obviously have no counter-attacking, tighter Plan B to go to when the team is having a poor day, in which you are trying to soak up pressure and score on the break. If you always play slower, wide tactics, you'll do well possession wise, but you'll struggle defensively.
    Short-sighted brown noser

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    A common issue behind such results is a total unwillingness to look at the context of a match. I played a game with a poor user tactic and ended up with a huge possession and shot advantage, despite losing 4-0. Via the match stats screen, I looked dominant. However, when watching the match through, I was getting my backside handed to me for the first 25 mins, after which time they had gone 2-0 up. It was only at that point the match stats began to shift in my favour, as they began to sit back, soak up pressure and hit me on the counter.

    Although I pounded their goal, I only created one CCC, whereas for their next two goals, they broke against an undermanned defence and scored pretty easy put aways, even if only one showed as a CCC. The non CCC, which was the last goal in the last minute, I knew was coming as my team was totally demoralised. They simply left too much time and space on the edge of the area for the opposing MC who could pick his spot with some ease.

    I always, always look with some suspicion on such dominant match stats with regular losses. Firstly, winnign the possession battle doesn't always gurantee results, especially if you only start doing so when you are a goal or two down. Secondly, if you are always doign this, you obviously have no counter-attacking, tighter Plan B to go to when the team is having a poor day, in which you are trying to soak up pressure and score on the break. If you always play slower, wide tactics, you'll do well possession wise, but you'll struggle defensively.
    Intresting points, i just find when i try and play defensive and counter attacking, im 2-0 before you can say bob's your uncle, im 20 points behind the top team yet in 2nd top goal scorer's, it's defensivly i strugle with. many years ago i was good at defending but i think the ME has changed so much it's almost like it doesn't allow you to be defensive, attacking is form of defence?

    where do i look to begin with?

  32. #32
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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Playing away isn't supposed to be easy. Unless you are a dominant force, you need to frustrate, keep things tight and quieten the home crowd. There are different ways of doing this, none of them guaranteed.

    But what can be guaranteed is that playing expansive, open football against a fired up home side with the crowd behind them is going to cost you points, no matter what the end of game match stats suggest.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    I just beat my major promotion rivals 5-2 at their place. I attempted to keep it tight and, at 75 minutes, it was 2-2. We threw the lead away twice so I gave up trying to keep it tight, brought on a third striker in place of a defender and went ultra-attacking. Ended up winning 5-2.

    Of course, this being patch 9.3.0, my midfielder scored a hattrick while my strikers goosed about like clowns. It is a silly irony of FM09 that getting your strikers to score goals is the hardest thing to do.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    I regularly look to win away games with about 15 mins left by increasing my agression. By that stage, the home team is frustrated and the match up for grabs. However, attacking from the off is asking for trouble, unless, as I said before, you are the dominant force of your division.

    Mike, either your forward issues are tactical or you are too used to the strike ratios of previous MEs to appreciate the extra degree of realism in the current ratios. Which is it? I only play one up front and the rotated players in that position have scored more than any other position in the team, although the most attacking MCa slot isn't far behind. At about 35-40% of the team total, it is about what I'd expect a lone FC formation forward to get.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    I have reset some mentalities to make more of a tight ship counter attacking. i have now managed three 1-1 away draws in a row, but two of them i still had like 90% of posession despite beeing defensive and they scored late on to get a point..

    May be you could check my C_Attack formation out and see if it's really counter attacking?

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike7077 View Post
    Of course, this being patch 9.3.0, my midfielder scored a hattrick while my strikers goosed about like clowns. It is a silly irony of FM09 that getting your strikers to score goals is the hardest thing to do.
    Not very hard. In the attacking corners, set the delivery into 6 yard box and set the attacker to challenge the GK

    The Corner exploit has sneaked back in 9.3

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    I have to agree with wwfan here, if you're an average side in the league, you really need to employ a strategy of containment and frustration for the home side when you are away. If you're lucky enough to score an early goal, then you'd have to keep a tight formation by playing narrow and making sure they can't find an easy way into the box. I've lost count on the number of times I've had to switch to my 451 formation which helps to keep the pressure up. Furthermore you need to pay very close attention to HOW the other team builds up their attacks and work to shut these down...for example..if a team is playing a 433 formation with a DMC, its absolutely vital you deny the DMC time and space on the ball and this may even include manmarking him or using OI. You also need to keep a lookout and deny the team easy ways to get the ball up, which may include closing down their fullbacks. There are two ways to do this, via instructions or with an appropriate formation.

    Just cos you have dominant possession and a superior shot count doesn't mean you ALWAYS are the better side. If you are the best side in the land, the strategy is pretty straightforward, hammer teams into submission or draw them out patiently and then put them to the sword. If you are just an average team, you need to stay tight at all times, pay attention and attack at the appropriate time. Thinking that that one tactic is enough is the wrong way to approach the game

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Hammer1000 and wwfan, I have a sense of deja vue with this thread. I wonder why?

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    I regularly look to win away games with about 15 mins left by increasing my agression. By that stage, the home team is frustrated and the match up for grabs. However, attacking from the off is asking for trouble, unless, as I said before, you are the dominant force of your division.
    To be honest, I'm pretty sure my team is the best in the division, but even then I don't like to attack right from the off when away from unless I'm convinced we'll win. The onus is still on the home team because, in my case, I don't think we're so much better than everyone else that they won't go for it. What I have noticed is that, towards the end of a match, my own attacking formations and tactics are far more effective than the standard 4-2-4 that the AI always goes for. I usually go 3-4-3 with an extremely direct approach, and the opposition can't handle it. That's what got me my 5-2 win away to my promotion rivals.

    Quote Originally Posted by wwfan View Post
    Mike, either your forward issues are tactical or you are too used to the strike ratios of previous MEs to appreciate the extra degree of realism in the current ratios. Which is it? I only play one up front and the rotated players in that position have scored more than any other position in the team, although the most attacking MCa slot isn't far behind. At about 35-40% of the team total, it is about what I'd expect a lone FC formation forward to get.
    I still think it is pretty ironic that getting my strikers to score is so damn hard when I have a tactic that is getting me goals. I play an attacking, direct 4-4-2, sometimes with passing set down the flanks, sometimes not, depending on the oppositions formation. What I find is that, although the strikers do see the ball in dangerous positions, the only people capable of scoring are my central midfielders. As a ratio, my goals from strikers are well below 35-40%. I'm actually considering going with one striker next time I play to see if that makes any difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by vivu View Post
    Not very hard. In the attacking corners, set the delivery into 6 yard box and set the attacker to challenge the GK

    The Corner exploit has sneaked back in 9.3
    I've tried this. Never works. It still seems to be one of my centre-backs that actually gets his head to the ball. But this is probably just down to the kind of striker I'm using to attack the goalkeeper. I guess their physical presence isn't big enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rupal View Post
    Hammer1000 and wwfan, I have a sense of deja vue with this thread. I wonder why?
    I don't mean to seem unhappy with the patch. I just don't talk much about the things that please me. I think it's a pretty good patch and have been enjoying my game a lot since I downloaded it. I don't have any issues with injuries and am happy with the rate of long shots. I just cannot get my strikers to score since this patch and that's what's bothering me.
    Last edited by Mike7077; 04-03-2009 at 10:22. Reason: potentially misleading typos

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Rupal View Post
    Hammer1000 and wwfan, I have a sense of deja vue with this thread. I wonder why?
    Morning Rupal hope your well?

    I'm not even playing at the moment, so the last thing i'm going to do is argue.

    Have'nt found any consistency with 9.30 so far and if that continues, i'll have no choice but to quit?

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike7077 View Post
    I've tried this. Never works. It still seems to be one of my centre-back that actually gets his head to the ball. But this is probably just down to the kind of striker I'm using to attack the goalkeeper. I guess their physical presence is big enough.
    Works for me, but might be due to the player I was using . I saw the posts on the exploit being back (and people griping about CBs becoming top scorers and wanted to test same for strikers) and tried it in one of my old save games (Blackburn was the team). I had a decent regen Targetman (Jumping 15 and heading 12). He was on 4 goals from 19 (I had quit the save at this point and started a new one in 9.3) and tried out with challenge GK on corners. He scored 4 in 5 and all were headers from corners.
    Last edited by vivu; 04-03-2009 at 09:35.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike7077 View Post
    I just beat my major promotion rivals 5-2 at their place. I attempted to keep it tight and, at 75 minutes, it was 2-2. We threw the lead away twice so I gave up trying to keep it tight, brought on a third striker in place of a defender and went ultra-attacking. Ended up winning 5-2.

    Of course, this being patch 9.3.0, my midfielder scored a hattrick while my strikers goosed about like clowns. It is a silly irony of FM09 that getting your strikers to score goals is the hardest thing to do.
    I've actually found the new patch makes my strikers score more compared to the rest of the team. Between the new patch and optimising my tactics a bit more, I now have 66 goals so far this season in all competitions (mid to late feb), with 40 of those coming from strikers. 10 from CM's, 8 from wingers and 6-7 from fullbacks and 1-2 from CBs. the 6-7 and 1-2 is one player has played CB and FB so I can't remember where he found his goal. The only anomoly is fullbacks getting a lot from open play, but that's because they tend to hover around the corner of the area when we attack the oposite flank, so often end up with the ball coming to them after crossing the entire area, leaving them free to blast it in.

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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    This subject comes up time after time, but essentially it comes down to how you are playing the game. If it's common, if you are dominating games but not winning them you are doing something wrong.

    I frequently have this the other way round where I win 1-0 with one shot on target and 10-12-15 on target for my opposition. This is because - like real football - you have to read each game as it comes. When I benefit it's because I have seen the way the game is going and if I don't sort out my team I'm going to lose. Typically this will be when I start with an attacking mentality and a team keeps hitting me on the break, in which case I will mirror them and go "defensive-counter", even at home.

    Sure, I have my share of games where I lose by one goal despite having ran the game, but ultimately I accept it's my fault. Not often, but it happens, and I usually know exactly why - most often the reason is that I'm also watching TV or something, and since I'm dominating possession and chances i just think "well I'm bound to score sometime", but then I don't and they do and because of my lazy approach to that game, I lose.

    I guess this is a roundabout way of saying (sorry) "it's your tactics". And no, that isn't being a fanboy or "brown nosing" or any other odd reply I've read on the boards recently. It's simple fact. If EVERYONE had problems like this I would be posting in agreement, but since it's only a minority that has this problem REGULARLY it isn't a broken game or ME.

    Without knowing more about anyone's tactics in a particular match, I can't offer any real, practical advice.

  44. #44
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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    i'm not sure if it's the same for every one but the reason i end up playing the way i do is because thats what i have most success with, changing to different tactics or even going defensive.. I end up getting thrashed 4-0 by just trying to be defensive.. I made a 4-3-2-1 and they put 6 past me..

    when i can learn the art of shut up shop i think i will be a winner, im still searching for that ingrediant.

  45. #45
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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne\'o View Post
    i'm not sure if it's the same for every one but the reason i end up playing the way i do is because thats what i have most success with, changing to different tactics or even going defensive.. I end up getting thrashed 4-0 by just trying to be defensive.. I made a 4-3-2-1 and they put 6 past me..

    when i can learn the art of shut up shop i think i will be a winner, im still searching for that ingrediant.
    Do you mean 'shut up shop' when the AI goes 4-2-4? If so I have a tactic that I have used since 07 which very rarely lets me down and more often than not I get another goal. If you are talking about going more defensive than you were playing because you have gone a goal up then I personally don't do that. I only change the way I am playing if I notice the AI has changed how it is playing.

  46. #46
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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    it's mainly the concept of dominating all the game, then out of the blue the AI score, or all of a sudden there 4-4-2 will completely make mine look incapable of defending, they stick so much preasure on that in the end. my defenders end up standing and watching htem as they pass and dribble around them to score, then they let me have an attack or two...

    to play counter attacking with out going ultra defensive iv not been able to do, some where my tactics are flawed and im making the same mistake, need to find out what that is really.

  47. #47
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    Default Re: this makes me so angry

    Since mt first post in this thread, i took adive and attempted to operate out side my comfort zone by trying to get my team to play in a way i wasn't able to do in previous matches..

    I have modified my 4-4-2 to make a Counter attacking tactic, since then, i have actually found that the counter game of football is far superior than the attacking 4-4-2 using the same players..

    since the carlisle game i have played 17 won 11, drawn 3, lost 3 (2 at Home) scored 40 goals and conceeding 21, allthough i have concedded more than i would like the main thing is, i can actually play defensive football have more possesion than the opponents and score more goals with less shots, im not sure if this is down to the corner bug but i have scored 25 goals this season..

    so to summorise i do think the ME does favour Counter attacking football slighty more than it should do but it works for me..

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