Height / Jumping (Player Naming)

[pires29]

I was just wondering why height isn't incorporated into the game?

I am using Lisandro Lopez of Porto and Daniel Agger of Liverpool as my example. In the game Lisandro Lopez has a height in the game is 5'9" (1.74m) and his jumping stat is 15, compared to Daniel Agger who is 6'2" (1.87m) and also has a jumping stat of 15. IRL if the header was contested between the two of them I would expect Agger to win at least 7 out of 10 because he is taller and they are equal in how well they can jump, in the game however the two players are on an equal playing field because the game doesn't take a players height into consideration. I do understand that there are other stats and factors that are taken into account whether a player wins a header or not (positioning, anticipation etc.) but even without those I would still expect Agger to win most headers if the type of high ball that was played to them was the same each time.

[ftg87]

IIRC, the jumping attribute is partly figured out using a player's height, so a tall player is more likely to have a high jumping attribute than a short one. That said, just because a player is taller does not mean he would win more headers against a shorter player, the shorter player may well be more athletic, meaning he can jump further off the ground and generally be more manoeuvrable in the air, giving him a better chance to get the ball

[pires29]

IIRC, the jumping attribute is partly figured out using a player's height, so a tall player is more likely to have a high jumping attribute than a short one. That said, just because a player is taller does not mean he would win more headers against a shorter player, the shorter player may well be more athletic, meaning he can jump further off the ground and generally be more manoeuvrable in the air, giving him a better chance to get the ball

I understand where you are coming from but if thats the case then why do the two players have the same stat for jumping or why is there even a jumping stat at all?

[ftg87]

I understand where you are coming from but if thats the case then why do the two players have the same stat for jumping or why is there even a jumping stat at all?

AFAIK, if 2 players have the same attribute (not stat ) for jumping then all it means is they would have an equal chance to get to a high ball. Pretty sure that there are a lot of things factored into creating this attribute, things like height, strength, speed and so on. So, like I say, it is a reflection of their chance to get a high ball, not just how high their head is off the ground.

If there wasn't a jumping attribute, then we would have to make these calculations for ourselves, so SI are just helping us out in including it TBH

[Finners]

Michael Owen outjumps Peter Crouch every time.

[chopper99]

The real question is, does Lopez actually win more headers in the game than Agger? If not then it's not actually a problem.

As you said yourself, jumping is only one of the attributes that will go towards deciding who wins a header, and the development of the jumping attribute is linked to height.
However, if Lopez is indeed winning more headers in the game than Agger then there may be a genuine problem, if he's not then the combination of jumping and other attributes is functioning correctly.

Perhaps you should do a proper test and post your results?

[pires29]

The real question is, does Lopez actually win more headers in the game than Agger? If not then it's not actually a problem.

As you said yourself, jumping is only one of the attributes that will go towards deciding who wins a header, and the development of the jumping attribute is linked to height.
However, if Lopez is indeed winning more headers in the game than Agger then there may be a genuine problem, if he's not then the combination of jumping and other attributes is functioning correctly.

Perhaps you should do a proper test and post your results?

From what the game tells me they should win an equal amount of headers against each other, which I think is wrong.

How would I go about doing a test?

[pires29]

But Agger and Lopez shouldn't have the same chance to get to a high ball IMO. Where does it say how high the player can get in the air if it is not jumping that is used?

I've looked at some of the other attributes which I thought may influences their chances of winning the header (feel free to dispute if you don't think they are relevant or i've missed one out):

Agger

Aggression - 12
Anticipation - 15
Determination - 15
Positioning - 18
Strength -15

Lopez

Aggression - 17
Anticipation - 15
Determination - 18
Positioning - 10
Strength - 15

I thought agility was closest to your comment about being more athletic but the manual says it has more to do with pace than jumping.

From these I would still say that Agger should be winning most of the headers.

[chopper99]

Yes Agger should be. You still haven't answered my question though, does he?

Nowhere in your post does it state what sort of results you're getting. Is Lopez winning a lot more headers than Agger? If so, by what sort of ratio?

I personally have not seen players that I wouldn't expect to win headers outdo big defenders that often in the game.

EDIT: Sorry, just seen your last post. The point is that we need to establish whether there is actually a problem. For that you need to provide some info on the number of headers Agger wins during a game compared to the number of headers Lopez wins, taken from the match stats.

[pires29]

Yes Agger should be. You still haven't answered my question though, does he?

Nowhere in your post does it state what sort of results you're getting. Is Lopez winning a lot more headers than Agger? If so, by what sort of ratio?

I personally have not seen players that I wouldn't expect to win headers outdo big defenders that often in the game.

How would I go about doing a test?

[chopper99]

Also, from the attributes you listed Lopez has the same strength and anticipation as Agger, yet is more determined and aggressive.

For those reasons it's actually quite plausable that he could win his fair share of headers.

[pires29]

Also, from the attributes you listed Lopez has the same strength and anticipation as Agger, yet is more determined and aggressive.

For those reasons it's actually quite plausable that he could win his fair share of headers.

In the game yes because height isn't taken into account, but IRL if they were equal at jumping as the game suggests Agger has a 6" height advantage over Lopez which means most of the headers between the two of them.

ftg87: The jumping attribute relates to how high a player can jump from a standing start. This is from the game manual. If height was used in the game (which I is why I started this thread as I think it should be) then Agger would have more chance of winning a high ball.

[chopper99]

In the game yes because height isn't taken into account, but IRL if they were equal at jumping as the game suggests Agger has a 6" height advantage over Lopez which means most of the headers between the two of them.

In real life hight is not the be all and end all that decides who wins a header. People have jokingly used Michael Owen as an example, but in all seriousness he wins a fair share of headers. Tim Cahil is another example of a fairly small player who wins his fair share of headers.

Also, strong players such as Heskey can use their strength to battle into a position where they will be first to a high ball. Height really isn't everything.

[pires29]

In real life hight is not the be all and end all that decides who wins a header. People have jokingly used Michael Owen as an example, but in all seriousness he wins a fair share of headers. Tim Cahil is another example of a fairly small player who wins his fair share of headers.

Also, strong players such as Heskey can use their strength to battle into a position where they will be first to a high ball. Height really isn't everything.

I'm not saying height is the be all and end all. What i'm saying is player A is 6'2" and player B is 5'10" and they both have the same skill in getting in the air and are similar in their approach, which would one would you expect to win most headers?

[chopper99]

I'm not saying height is the be all and end all. What i'm saying is player A is 6'2" and player B is 5'10" and they both have the same skill in getting in the air and are similar in their approach, which would one would you expect to win most headers?

As I said earlier, it depends on what other attributes they have. You also have to take each header on it's own merit, so it also depends on the hight of the ball, the players starting position and many other factors. For me it's not as simple as saying 'Player A is 6'2" so should win more headers than player B who is 5'10".

If player A has other attributes that make for a good header of the ball then yes, over the course of the game I would expect him to win more headers. And I think if you test this properly that's what you will find.

[chopper99]

Play a game in which Lopez is against Agger. Save the game before hand and replay it say 10 times, trying and keep everything the same as much as possible (tactics, team talks etc).

At the end of each match look at the match stats to see how many headers and key headers were won by each player. Then look at the average over ten games to see how many headers each player is winning.

Of course, this doesn't tell you exactly how many headers they won against each other, for that you'd have to watch a full match and note down each header one player won against the other. But it's a start.

[pires29]

Would it be best make Porto play long ball and have Agger man mark Lopez to make sure they are against each other most of the time?

[chopper99]

Just make sure Agger is playing on the side of the pitch that Lopez is playing on and set him to man mark him. That should do for starters.

[Lyssien]

In game, Jumping means Height+jumping, so it's the heighest a player can reach. If 2 players have equal Jumping attributes, then they can reach the same height, no matter what their Height attribute is.

Height attribute is taken into account for the first time in FM2009 (I remember Paul C saying so), but only when a player does not jump.

[pires29]

I've just played 10 games between Liverpool and Porto. I accidently deleted the word document where I put the results in but Agger did win more headers than Lopez winning 70 odd percent so I can admit I was wrong.

[chopper99]

I've just played 10 games between Liverpool and Porto. I accidently deleted the word document where I put the results in but Agger did win more headers than Lopez winning 70 odd percent so I can admit I was wrong.

That's good to know. But now the interesting question is why does Agger win more headers
Which attributes, if not jumping and hight do make a player more successful at heading?

[pires29]

That's good to know. But now the interesting question is why does Agger win more headers
Which attributes, if not jumping and hight do make a player more successful at heading?

My arguement at the start was that I think height should be included as a factor in the game, don't think it came across like that in my posts. I would also like to see which are the attributes make a player more likely to win a header.

bieritarier: I set up the tactics so that Agger was man marking Lopez and set Porto's tactics to long ball and made Lopez a target man to maximise the amount of headers they would have to contest. I didn't watch the whole match but I did notice from the highlights I watched that some headers that were won weren't against each other but against the other striker/defender who were Hulk and Carragher so the test is still somewhat flawed in the stats that I got back but I don't really think there is another way that a test could have been made.

Quakje: IRL the test would be best done on the training field where you could put the same type of cross in many times or get someone to kick the ball in the air and let them challenge but in FM it's not possible to do this so again the stats will be flawed.

[michaeltmurrayuk]

My arguement at the start was that I think height should be included as a factor in the game, don't think it came across like that in my posts. I would also like to see which are the attributes make a player more likely to win a header.

Height is a factor, it's just not the most important one. The height of the ball determines how important height is to winning a header - if the ball is at your players height so he can head the ball without jumping, then his jumping attribute wont apply, in this case if you have two players identical apart from height the taller player who doesn't need to jump would more often than not win the header (assuming that the smaller player doesn't jump higher than the tall players height).

If the ball is higher up in the air so that both players need to jump, then jumping is more important than height - jumping is how high their head reaches, not how far off the ground their feet are. Height here will still have some affect just less of an effect - assuming the players are equal bar height and reach the same height comfortably for the ball, the taller guy has a slight advantage that with a small jump they are more likely to be more stable on landing - so the small guy who can leap may win the header, but if he lands in a heap the tall guy will more than likely retrieve the ball.

(There was a post from PaulC or Miles or someone else from SI that described in more detail what was important but that is the gist of it that I remember)


There will be plently of other attributes that all play a part as well from anticipation and positioning/off the ball to be stood in the right place at the right time, strength to hold off the other player, jumping, agility, balance, bravery to reach the ball, heading and technique to put it where you want etc...

[bieritarier]

where did you play them?

Agger as a defender and Lopez as a striker? I so, I would be very surprised if Lopez had one more headers or an equal amount of them. Defenders have the advantage of "facing the ball" most of the time and I would expect that's reflected in the game.

furthermore, 10 games aren't enough to clearly state who is better at headers, you probably will never be able to make a fair comparison of the two as you won't be able to get them playing in the completely same cirumstances which, imho, makes this exerise pretty useless.

[Quackje]

Don't forget that even someone who is 2m tall and can leap another half metre on top of that has no better chance of winning the ball against 1.75m guy who jumps a similar height unless the ball is delivered into the box very high. Say the ball is coming into to where the challenge will take place at 2m high, either guy could win it. Of course its part of the skill and understanding of the crosser to put the ball up at a height where only the crossée (tall guy) can get to it who should of course aim to meet the ball when its higher than the defenders can cope with still.

[am4387]

Don't forget that even someone who is 2m tall and can leap another half metre on top of that has no better chance of winning the ball against 1.75m guy who jumps a similar height unless the ball is delivered into the box very high. Say the ball is coming into to where the challenge will take place at 2m high, either guy could win it. Of course its part of the skill and understanding of the crosser to put the ball up at a height where only the crossée (tall guy) can get to it who should of course aim to meet the ball when its higher than the defenders can cope with still.

I don't agree entirely with that, heading it away with your feet firmly planted on the ground gives you a huge advantage over a guy who has to come in at pace and time his leap and get up 25 cm off the ground. That is one of the reasons height should be introduced, if you watch someone like Peter Crouch he can win a lot of headers standing with his feet on the ground which makes him much more balanced and makes it a whole lot easier for him. It takes away a whole lot of the difficulties of winning a headed ball.

[pires29]

Thanks for clearing it up for me. Am I right in saying that height wasn't a factor until recently?