9.3.0 - has made a terrible game, even worse!

[gonzdons]

Has anyone else noticed that the latest patch has completely screwed up closing down? I can barely make it a half without having to sub both my ML and MR, and both strikers struggle to see out a game. Obvious decision - reduce closing down. This results in all my players standing off to the extent, that I've actually had an opposing defender, with a long shot rating of 4, score a screamer from thirty yards. Which of course, is "very realistic".

I've hated Football Manager since the whole Champ Man split, and I think that the tactics in the current version are simply ridiculous. Quite frankly, I feel that I shouldn't have to spend hours/days/weeks, reading up on other peoples tactics (TT&F '09, etc), just to be able to play.. a GAME (and don't even get me started on the joke that is the SI instruction manual - my dead Gran, could have written something more intelligible than that drivel)! If I want to dedicate my life to football magement, then I will obtain my UEFA badges and actually become a real manager/coach.. and guess what I'd be paid for it, and wouldn't have wasted my life! FM is after all, supposed to be fun and enjoyable, but for the vast majority of users, this game has now become and absolute pain in the arse to play!

My point really is this - if you are a real manager you are trained to be so, and have the all the necessary "tactics" at your fingertips (IE - you have been taught them). FM '09, however, expects you to have obtained said badges already, and have intricate knowledge of the tactics of world football - which is quite frankly, a load of crap, otherwise we would all be leading real-life teams to the championships of our choosing. "Realism" - my arse!

And to all you "fanboy" idiots out there, FM is supposed to be fun - which it is not, unless you have no actual life to lead of course; FM is supposed to be accessible - it is not (I played Champ Man for the first time when I was 11/12, and absolutely loved it - whereas the current game makes me want to throw my mouse out the window!). FM is supposed to give ordinary armchair fans the excitement of managing their own teams - which it does not, because unless you are a top team, no tactics actually work as they should (and believe me, I have tried).

This is not to mention the fact that the FM researchers are clearly biased morons, eg, nearly every season I start in the SPL, sees ICT finish in the top four, even though IRL, they are just off the bottom - "realistic", eh. And don't get me started on the player ratings in the SPL - unrealistic does not even start to explain it.

I hate FM 2009, then - I've tried all the tactics out there, and quite frankly am not prepared to dedicate my life to what is after all, just a stupid game. I won't be buying another version of this game until the above is fixed, and I know many hundreds of ordinary "champ man" fans whom won't bother either. Well done SI, for creating one of the most disappointing games I have ever played.

[Hershie]

I can't be arsed reading what is clearly an unstructured and unconstructive rant, but I have a few remarks to mark after skimming through your post.

1) If you've hated it since FM2005, why are you still playing?

2) Don't exaggerate. I have yet to read the TT&F guides, or any other for that matter, but am still having sizeable success with logically thought-out tactics. There are numerous threads at the moment suggesting the game is even easier with the new patch, so maybe the problem lies with you.

3) It's as much as possible a realistic simulation while remaining an enjoyable gaming experience.

4) Using the term 'fanboys' pretty much nullifies any argument.

5) If you have any data issues, bring them up in the data forum. It appears the case in the game that some teams tactics work better than others, thus teams 'outperform' their 'realistic' results (in some people's eyes, anyway).

6) Find a better game then.

[gonzdons]

I can't be arsed reading what is clearly an unstructured and unconstructive rant, but I have a few remarks to mark after skimming through your post.

1) If you've hated it since FM2005, why are you still playing?

2) Don't exaggerate. I have yet to read the TT&F guides, or any other for that matter, but am still having sizeable success with logically thought-out tactics. There are numerous threads at the moment suggesting the game is even easier with the new patch, so maybe the problem lies with you.

3) It's as much as possible a realistic simulation while remaining an enjoyable gaming experience.

4) Using the term 'fanboys' pretty much nullifies any argument.

5) If you have any data issues, bring them up in the data forum. It appears the case in the game that some teams tactics work better than others, thus teams 'outperform' their 'realistic' results (in some people's eyes, anyway).

6) Find a better game then.

Well I didn't bother reading what you have written - cos well what's the point, eh? Moron.

I have persevered with FM, because I loved Champ Man so much, and hoped that the game would eventually return to such great heights, but it has not. If you are not interested in what I have to say, then don't read it. I for one, couldn't give a hoot, what you think, when what you have said is pure drivel.

Any other constructive debate would be welcome, however.

[Hershie]

Well I didn't bother reading what you have written - cos well what's the point, eh? Moron.

I have persevered with FM, because I loved Champ Man so much, and hoped that the game would eventually return to such great heights, but it has not. If you are not interested in what I have to say, then don't read it. I for one, couldn't give a hoot, what you think, when what you have said is pure drivel.

Any other constructive debate would be welcome, however.

I only worked with what you gave me.

Cut the abuse too; you're losing any credibility fast. I think it's fairly clear that I DID read it, and what I said was merely making a point; however if you're unwilling to read anything but your own viewpoint, you're a very sad and narrow-minded person.

What would you like to debate?

[gonzdons]

I only worked with what you gave me.

Cut the abuse too; you're losing any credibility fast. I think it's fairly clear that I DID read it, and what I said was merely making a point; however if you're unwilling to read anything but your own viewpoint, you're a very sad and narrow-minded person.

What would you like to debate?

Actually, it's fairly clear that you didn't read what I said, and have instead decided to take the stance that I am an idiot, and don't know what I am talking about, simply because I have not wasted quite as much of my life on this forum, as you clearly have. I couldn't give a flying fig, if you find what I say credible - I am not speaking to you if you have no problem with the game, and therefore, you are simply trolling for arguments. You don't have a credible argument to make either, and what argument you do make is written in such an unintelligible manner, that it is obvious to me that you couldn't care less about making FM a better game. This is, after all, the whole point of the forum, so go away, if you don't understand how they work.

[La Furia Roja]

most people are of the same view, until they learn how to play the game. CM was far to easy, hence why most people enjoyed, you could easily take any team to the top without breaking a sweat, i took 2 conference teams to the cl without any problems. FM makes you work for a result, there are so many factors to what wins or loses a game irl, and its the same here, 90% of posts in TT&F are people saying how wrong they were moaning about how rubbish it was. If you look at the guide you can clearly see it all makes sense but is things you have not thought about... this for me is one of the best in terms or realism as you cant just fly through the leagues to get to the top, you need to play with your head, build a great backroom as well as squad as well as studyign the other teams formations etc to counter it, couldnt be better!

[Hershie]

Actually, it's fairly clear that you didn't read what I said, and have instead decided to take the stance that I am an idiot, and don't know what I am talking about, simply because I have not wasted quite as much of my life on this forum, as you clearly have. I couldn't give a flying fig, if you find what I say credible - I am not speaking to you if you have no problem with the game, and therefore, you are simply trolling for arguments. You don't have a credible argument to make either, and what argument you do make is written in such an unintelligible manner, that it is obvious to me that you couldn't care less about making FM a better game. This is, after all, the whole point of the forum, so go away, if you don't understand how they work.

Erm, what?

I seriously can't be arsed with you. I'll leave this for someone else to fight, and observe the amazing hypocracy you've shown.

[gonzdons]

Erm, what?

I seriously can't be arsed with you. I'll leave this for someone else to fight, and observe the amazing hypocracy you've shown.

**** off then! Hypocrisy - thy name is Hershie. If you like the game, then don't read this. If you CAN find fault with it, like many can, then say your piece.

[La Furia Roja]

**** off then!

mate cut the swearing, where is it getting you, although it wasn't the best way of putting it, he only gave a counter argument to your views, if you don't want to hear what people have to say have your rant to a mirror!

[Hershie]

**** off then!

I think I just said I was doing so.

[Ackter]

Calm down ladies.

For what it's worth, I'm not having this closing down problem because I only set high closing down for players with exceptional stamina and mental attributes. What's the stamina rating of your wingers?

There's also natural fitness to take into account which determines how quickly players recover condition between matches.

[begilsson]

Actually, it's fairly clear that you didn't read what I said, and have instead decided to take the stance that I am an idiot, and don't know what I am talking about, simply because I have not wasted quite as much of my life on this forum, as you clearly have. I couldn't give a flying fig, if you find what I say credible - I am not speaking to you if you have no problem with the game, and therefore, you are simply trolling for arguments. You don't have a credible argument to make either, and what argument you do make is written in such an unintelligible manner, that it is obvious to me that you couldn't care less about making FM a better game. This is, after all, the whole point of the forum, so go away, if you don't understand how they work.

You may have had some good points in your original posting that could lead to a constructive debate, but this last post pretty much showed that it's as much point talking to you as it is talking to the village idiot..

[gonzdons]

mate cut the swearing, where is it getting you, although it wasn't the best way of putting it, he only gave a counter argument to your views, if you don't want to hear what people have to say have your rant to a mirror!

I kinda assumed that the point of this forum was that the creators of FM would actually read the posts, but if I'm wrong, then I retract what I have said, because there is absolutely no point in saying it in the first place, if SI, do not listen. I'm very happy that many people find FM to be enjoyable, but I do not, and as someone whom payed full whack for the game, I am entitled to my opinion, whether you agree with it or not. I have been reading the forum for months now, but this is the first time I have posted, because until now I had blamed all my bad performances on my own tactics.

I have, however, come to the conclusion that the tactics do not work as they should, and the complete lack of feedback from the game regarding your tactics, no matter how effective, or ineffective, is laughable. Like I said, I do not expect to have to dedicate weeks at a time, just to play a football sim, and have enjoyed every incarnation of Champ Man or FM, previous to FM2008, without resorting to the internet for tips and tactics. I understand football, watch it regularly, have played the game for years, but apparently all that adds up to nothing, when it comes to figuring out the ambiguity of the current tactic selection options.

[gonzdons]

Calm down ladies.

For what it's worth, I'm not having this closing down problem because I only set high closing down for players with exceptional stamina and mental attributes. What's the stamina rating of your wingers?

There's also natural fitness to take into account which determines how quickly players recover condition between matches.

You may well be right there, I need to check my players attributes. Although I would add that the closing down tactics I employ, worked perfectly in 9.2.0, but now appear to be completely useless. Fair enough, if this has made FM more realistic, but SI could at least give some tips on how to tweak your tactics when they release a new patch, as it is clear that same tactics will work differently with an 'improved' match engine.

[La Furia Roja]

I kinda assumed that the point of this forum was that the creators of FM would actually read the posts, but if I'm wrong, then I retract what I have said, because there is absolutely no point in saying it in the first place, if SI, do not listen. I'm very happy that many people find FM to be enjoyable, but I do not, and as someone whom payed full whack for the game, I am entitled to my opinion, whether you agree with it or not. I have been reading the forum for months now, but this is the first time I have posted, because until now I had blamed all my bad performances on my own tactics.

I have, however, come to the conclusion that the tactics do not work as they should, and the complete lack of feedback from the game regarding your tactics, no matter how effective, or ineffective, is laughable. Like I said, I do not expect to have to dedicate weeks at a time, just to play a football sim, and have enjoyed every incarnation of Champ Man or FM, previous to FM2008, without resorting to the internet for tips and tactics. I understand football, watch it regularly, have played the game for years, but apparently all that adds up to nothing, when it comes to figuring out the ambiguity of the current tactic selection options.

mate i never once said you weren't entitled to your opinion, all i said was you shouldn't swear and bit peoples heads off that don't agree with you. I guess i just don't see your argument because i was in the same boat, skimmed over the TT&F and saw what i was doing wrong. No one has implied your not welcome to have your say or your wrong and should shut up

[gonzdons]

mate i never once said you weren't entitled to your opinion, all i said was you shouldn't swear and bit peoples heads off that don't agree with you. I guess i just don't see your argument because i was in the same boat, skimmed over the TT&F and saw what i was doing wrong. No one has implied your not welcome to have your say or your wrong and should shut up

Fair enough mate, but you have still not answered a single point I made in my original post. In fact, no-one thus far has come up with any intelligible counter-argument to my points, other than, "you are wrong"!

[Blanchflower1]

**** off then! Hypocrisy - thy name is Hershie. If you like the game, then don't read this. If you CAN find fault with it, like many can, then say your piece.

That is quite right mate!

[Matt ex SEGA]

Can everyone, OP included, keep it civil please - there's no requirement to post your thoughts on anyone else's posting style, much less so if you're offensive about it.

Thanks.

[La Furia Roja]

i suggested you went through TT&F and the tactical forums as that is where i found all my answers, you will more than likely find that there is a reason for every problem you have

[gonzdons]

Can everyone, OP included, keep it civil please - there's no requirement to post your thoughts on anyone else's posting style, much less so if you're offensive about it.

Thanks.

You are right of course, and I apologise for being offensive - it's not an excuse, I really do love management sims, and bought FM2009, hoping to love it too, but it really frustrated me, so I thought I should say my piece.

[Hershie]

**** off then! Hypocrisy - thy name is Hershie. If you like the game, then don't read this. If you CAN find fault with it, like many can, then say your piece.

You're calling me a hypocrite? I responsed to your opening post with my comments on numerous statements you made. You then insulted me for, basically, disagreeing with you. If you only want people who agree with you to read something, don't post it on a forum all can reply to.

I like the game, thus I'm putting my side on your arguments. What's the point of a one-sided argument with people just working themselves up?

Please care to state exactly how disagreeing with you makes me a hypocrite. Don't expect to come onto the forums, get everyone to agree with you, and have to right to insult those who don't. I would have been more than up for a sensible debate if you put forward any constructive points yourself, other than those I already responded to and got insulted for.

[Matt ex SEGA]

Saying your piece is more than acceptable but i's generally better received if it's a little more considered...

Hershie - I asked everyone to drop it. You included please. Back on topic, or not at all...

Ta.

[Hershie]

Saying your piece is more than acceptable but i's generally better received if it's a little more considered...

Hershie - I asked everyone to drop it. You included please. Back on topic, or not at all...

Ta.

Yeah, sorry.

I just noticed the poster edited his post after I first replied and, you know..

[gonzdons]

i suggested you went through TT&F and the tactical forums as that is where i found all my answers, you will more than likely find that there is a reason for every problem you have

I've read TT&F, and have it saved on my hard drive, but my tactics still do not work. Primarily I feel this is the case as TT&F, for example, is largely targeted at good/world class teams, and when they do make mention of weaker teams, they simply say, "increase passing a bit", "reduce creative freedom a bit".. which quite frankly is no help at all. Not to mention the fact, that all this information should be included as part of the game, and not as an afterthought of people whom actually play it. SI know what tactics work, and what don't and they should be far better at communicating that to the average game player, than they are currently. I want the tactics that are accessible in game to actually work, and not have to resort to searching the Internet for tactics that 'might' work.

[Ackter]

SI know what tactics work

No they don't - Paul C was notoriously rubbish at FML

[Hershie]

I've read TT&F, and have it saved on my hard drive, but my tactics still do not work. Primarily I feel this is the case as TT&F, for example, is largely targeted at good/world class teams, and when they do make mention of weaker teams, they simply say, "increase passing a bit", "reduce creative freedom a bit".. which quite frankly is no help at all. Not to mention the fact, that all this information should be included as part of the game, and not as an afterthought of people whom actually play it. SI know what tactics work, and what don't and they should be far better at communicating that to the average game player, than they are currently. I want the tactics that are accessible in game to actually work, and not have to resort to searching the Internet for tactics that 'might' work.

I think part of the point of a realistic simulation is that you aren't spoon fed things and have to use a certain amount of your own logic and intelligence to find a tactic that works and suits your players and your targets.

I recommend just working with a preset tactic. With surprisingly minor tweaks these can be very successful if you have the right players and the right approach.

[La Furia Roja]

you don't have to, i use my one tactic, i trialled and errored over a season or 2, tweaking each part as i went to get what i wanted. Its almost like saying about any other game that you want a 'walkthrough' to come with it cause you don't want to work it for yourself. Unfortunately the majority of people wish to work tactics etc out instead of having it on a plate in front of them so the game is set that way, cant please everyonr

[gonzdons]

No they don't - Paul C was notoriously rubbish at FML

Alright fair enough, but if SI don't know how to play it, then how is Joe Bloggs off the street supposed to manage?? I keep going back to my opening points, but in my opinion the game used to be fun, and is now nothing but a complete slog.

[La Furia Roja]

lol what he said! sorry if it seemed like a repeat post it was written while i was posting

[Ackter]

Paul C does know how to make a good tactic work, but there are people who are better at it and have more time to spare so it makes sense for him to allow them to do it in his place. Thus the Tactical forum is always the best place to ask for tactical advice.

[gonzdons]

you don't have to, i use my one tactic, i trialled and errored over a season or 2, tweaking each part as i went to get what i wanted. Its almost like saying about any other game that you want a 'walkthrough' to come with it cause you don't want to work it for yourself. Unfortunately the majority of people wish to work tactics etc out instead of having it on a plate in front of them so the game is set that way, cant please everyonr

Actually you can have everything - you simply introduce a staggered difficulty setting, or allow users more control over how the game actually works - that way you please everyone, and do not alienate the ordinary game-player, which FM2009 most certainly currently does. I do not want a walk-through, and I do not expect to win everything in my first season, but I do at least expect to be able to play the game, without being a tactical 'know-it-all'.

And believe me, if I am complaining, you can bet your backside there are thousands of ordinary buyers, whom aren't even aware that the forum exists, that feel exactly the same way.

Just to be clear - NO USER SHOULD HAVE TO RESULT TO EXTERNAL SOURCES TO BE ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME, AND CURRENTLY NEARLY EVERY USER IN THE KNOW ALREADY DOES (TT&F, etc) AND THOSE THAT DON'T KNOW, HAVE GIVEN UP PLAYING THE GAME, ALREADY.

[wwfan]

I've read TT&F, and have it saved on my hard drive, but my tactics still do not work. Primarily I feel this is the case as TT&F, for example, is largely targeted at good/world class teams, and when they do make mention of weaker teams, they simply say, "increase passing a bit", "reduce creative freedom a bit".. which quite frankly is no help at all.

That's quite surprising as I have managed at ever level in the English leagues, plus in various other nations with pretty poor sides, and had no trouble getting things to work as envisioned. It was certainly never supposed to target good/world class teams and should be easily adaptable to any level, simply by increasing passing length and reducing closing down and creative freedom, all of which is pretty explicitly explained.

[Hershie]

Actually you can have everything - you simply introduce a staggered difficulty setting, or allow users more control over how the game actually works - that way you please everyone, and do not alienate the ordinary game-player, which FM2009 most certainly currently does. I do not want a walk-through, and I do not expect to win everything in my first season, but I do at least expect to be able to play the game, without being a tactical 'know-it-all'.

And believe me, if I am complaining, you can bet your backside there are thousands of ordinary buyers, whom aren't even aware that the forum exists, that feel exactly the same way.

Just to be clear - NO USER SHOULD HAVE TO RESULT TO EXTERNAL SOURCES TO BE ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME, AND CURRENTLY NEARLY EVERY USER IN THE KNOW ALREADY DOES (TT&F, etc) AND THOSE THAT DON'T KNOW, HAVE GIVEN UP PLAYING THE GAME, ALREADY.

'Simply' introduce is quite wrong. Would require a whole game rewrite.

Also, don't generalise. I know numerous people who don't use these forums or any other sites but still greatly enjoy the game, and as much as I can sympathise with your situation, I advise just to stick with it, go back to basics, and try and think logically, as the majority who have success do.

[La Furia Roja]

and its a great piece mate, i actually printed it and keep it next to my pc! i was going to say it got me to championship with Chelmsford City but didnt want to start a new argument

[gonzdons]

That's quite surprising as I have managed at ever level in the English leagues, plus in various other nations with pretty poor sides, and had no trouble getting things to work as envisioned. It was certainly never supposed to target good/world class teams and should be easily adaptable to any level, simply be increasing passing length and reducing closing down and creative freedom, all of which is pretty explicitly explained.

I'm sorry mate, but I really have to disagree with you there, despite the fact I realize, you clearly know what you are talking about from other posts of yours, that I have read. TT&F is not nearly explicit enough in its description, and as soon as one tries to manage a lower level team, in my experience, the tactics simply do not work. And quite frankly even if they do, why should I have to read a fifty page tome, just to play a game I payed less than twenty quid for? I am, after all, not getting paid for my time!

I guess my real point should be - what ever happened to pick up and play? Champ Man was such a success, in my opinion, due to this precise fact, and it seems that FM is now disregarding this altogether, to please the 'hardcore', whom have the time and the inclination to give up part of their lives for a GAME.

[Ackter]

Difficulty levels as you suggest them would require SI to create two seperate match engines per difficulty, or throwing the entire match engine away and building a new one from scratch that allows weighting and human differentiation. Both are simply never going to happen.

The only real way difficulty levels could be introduced is the implementation of staff help. Assistant feedback was introduced in this version so I think it's clear that this is the way SI wish to persue the difficulty issue.

[La Furia Roja]

well i'm out of ideas, i don't know what you want to hear. Every solution isn't good enough. I personally have had huge success in lower leagues with TT&F. This is why i can't see your side, i know plenty of people who were in your boat and this got them out of it. Maybe this just isn't the game for you anymore as this is the direction it's going in and you clearly don't like it.

[gonzdons]

'Simply' introduce is quite wrong. Would require a whole game rewrite.

Also, don't generalise. I know numerous people who don't use these forums or any other sites but still greatly enjoy the game, and as much as I can sympathise with your situation, I advise just to stick with it, go back to basics, and try and think logically, as the majority who have success do.

Requires a whole game re-write? Then SI, please re-write the game, as you have strayed so far from the initial joy of Champ Man, in my opinion(!), that you are losing fans by the minute.

[Rupal]

That's quite surprising as I have managed at ever level in the English leagues, plus in various other nations with pretty poor sides, and had no trouble getting things to work as envisioned. It was certainly never supposed to target good/world class teams and should be easily adaptable to any level, simply by increasing passing length and reducing closing down and creative freedom, all of which is pretty explicitly explained.

Yes, I manage in the lower leagues because I enjoy it and use tactics based on TT&F, doing basically what wwfan says here and they work well. It's realistic, too - on the whole you get more long ball the lower you go down the leagues.

Having said all that, the tactical interface really does need to be made much more user friendly. It really can't be right that we need a 50 page manual not even created by SI that you have to download from the web in order to work the system out.

[Ackter]

Oh and Rich, I'd appreciate your input in my Herrera thread in T&T

[La Furia Roja]

cm was a success due to it not having competitors, now that it has can you find a copy of it? it is/was rubbish compared to the depth and realism of fm, maybe try FIFA manager if you want to pick up and play and skip all the details

[Ackter]

The old CM is what became FM2005.

It's the same team in charge.

[gonzdons]

well i'm out of ideas, i don't know what you want to hear. Every solution isn't good enough. I personally have had huge success in lower leagues with TT&F. This is why i can't see your side, i know plenty of people who were in your boat and this got them out of it. Maybe this just isn't the game for you anymore as this is the direction it's going in and you clearly don't like it.

Every "solution" you have offered is nothing but an interpretation of how to the play the game, an interpretation that SI should be teaching users, rather than saying - "find out yourself, you lazy rabble!". The fact is that SI, give no clues as to how the game should be played, and therefore if you want any joy out of it, you have to spend all your free time, learning how to manage a real team - which really defeats the purpose of it being a game in the first place. Emphasis on the word "game" people. I really can't believe that an intelligent person would advocate wasting one's time with reading a fifty page document, just to play a game. Don't you people have better things to do?

[gonzdons]

Having said all that, the tactical interface really does need to be made much more user friendly. It really can't be right that we need a 50 page manual not even created by SI that you have to download from the web in order to work the system out.[/QUOTE]

This is the point I was trying to make - thank you for making it far more concisely than I could!

[Rupal]

Every "solution" you have offered is nothing but an interpretation of how to the play the game, an interpretation that SI should be teaching users, rather than saying - "find out yourself, you lazy rabble!". The fact is that SI, give no clues as to how the game should be played, and therefore if you want any joy out of it, you have to spend all your free time, learning how to manage a real team - which really defeats the purpose of it being a game in the first place. Emphasis on the word "game" people. I really can't believe that an intelligent person would advocate wasting one's time with reading a fifty page document, just to play a game. Don't you people have better things to do?

I agree that you shouldn't need a 50 page manual produced by an outside party. However, if you want SI to teach users they would probably need to produce a 50 page manual themselves to do it and using your criteria it would be just as much a waste of time for you to read that as to read the TT&F 50 page manual!

They need to make the tactical system more user friendly so that no huge long manuals are needed at all!

[gonzdons]

I agree that you shouldn't need a 50 page manual produced by an outside party. However, if you want SI to teach users they would probably need to produce a 50 page manual themselves to do it and using your criteria it would be just as much a waste of time for you to read that as to read the TT&F 50 page manual!

They need to make the tactical system more user friendly so that no huge long manuals are needed at all!

I see what you are getting at, and it makes complete sense to me - it's just a shame that nobody else seems willing to listen, and can't be bothered to critique what is already there. Most people on here, are clearly not interested in making an improved, more commercially successful, game, and are rather more interested in telling the world how great they are at playing the game.

[wwfan]

I see what you are getting at, and it makes complete sense to me - it's just a shame that nobody else seems willing to listen, and can't be bothered to critique what is already there. Most people on here, are clearly not interested in making an improved, more commercially successful, game, and are rather more interested in telling the world how great they are at playing the game.

Are you from rentablanketstatement.com?

There are a huge number of people here who make constructive critiques of the game, whose opinions SI readily take note of.

[gonzdons]

Are you from rentablanketstatement.com?

There are a huge number of people here who make constructive critiques of the game, whose opinions SI readily take note of.

Oh, of course, I forgot that because I don't spend my life on this forum, that my opinions mean nothing! Sorry for that people, I was under the mistaken belief, that this was a forum for airing ones views, rather than just "towing the party line". Pathetic attitude, friend.

[wwfan]

I have no objection to you 'airing your views'. I do, however, have an objection to blanket statements that have no basis in reality and in your face rudeness.

[Rupal]

Oh, of course, I forgot that because I don't spend my life on this forum, that my opinions mean nothing! Sorry for that people, I was under the mistaken belief, that this was a forum for airing ones views, rather than just "towing the party line". Pathetic attitude, friend.

I have no objection to you 'airing your views'. I do, however, have an objection to blanket statements that have no basis in reality and in your face rudeness.

Children, really! Play nicely!

[gonzdons]

I have no objection to you 'airing your views'. I do, however, have an objection to blanket statements that have no basis in reality and in your face rudeness.

I made no blanket statements, and any that you consider as such, were quite clearly my own opinion, and cannot therefore be considered as such. It is a real shame that, you do not understand the English language better. And as for rudeness, you need to grow up mate, the fact is I have criticized, what is in my opinion, a poorly constructed game, and you don't like that fact - so get over it.

[pdbravo]

The obvious answer is levels of difficulty, some people want to focus on building their lower league team up into a world class side while others want to have the option of what diet their players should be on. With a little thought this isn't that hard to implement even with the current engine, and would also kill a few birds with one stone and help solve the press conference/team talk debacle.

[Ricky Riccardo]

To the OP, while you have an opinion its always best to think about what you are going to type before you do. The game might not be perfect for you and others, but its almost perfect for me (and others).

The people involved put alot of effort into it and atleast when they say "patch will be released on this date" it happens. Buy an EA game and see what good support they give, none. They are the real cancer of the gaming industry, SI are ok in my books and GODS when compared to EA.

[gonzdons]

The obvious answer is levels of difficulty, some people want to focus on building their lower league team up into a world class side while others want to have the option of what diet their players should be on. With a little thought this isn't that hard to implement even with the current engine, and would also kill a few birds with one stone and help solve the press conference/team talk debacle.

Indeed, it's clear to me at least, that you understand better how people want to play the game, than SI does!

[gonzdons]

To the OP, while you have an opinion its always best to think about what you are going to type before you do. The game might not be perfect for you and others, but its almost perfect for me (and others).

The people involved put alot of effort into it and atleast when they say "patch will be released on this date" it happens. Buy an EA game and see what good support they give, none. They are the real cancer of the gaming industry, SI are ok in my books and GODS when compared to EA.

I totally agree that there is no comparison between SI and EA - EA are a bit of a joke after all! But therein lies the crux of my argument, that SI have stagnated, whilst other game developers have moved things on - it's not exactly as if SI came up with the whole 3D pitch idea is it - even if they did implement it better. In my opinion, SI have not bothered to make the game better, and have instead concentrated on making it more realistic, which is absolutely not the same thing.

[Ricky Riccardo]

I totally agree that there is no comparison between SI and EA - EA are a bit of a joke after all! But therein lies the crux of my argument, that SI have stagnated, whilst other game developers have moved things on - it's not exactly as if SI came up with the whole 3D pitch idea is it - even if they did implement it better. In my opinion, SI have not bothered to make the game better, and have instead concentrated on making it more realistic, which is absolutely not the same thing.

I disagree, EA are the biggest joke, not a bit, the biggest.

Whats not to like about the 3d Match Engine, its great and even better with the new patch.

I agree with you on the realism, but then again I prefer it that way, so do many others, thats why we all come back. If I wanted an arcadey type football management game I'd go and buy one of the other generic ones available, but they never compare to FM.

One idea that could solve the problem, is in FM10 having 'Easy/Medium/Hard/Realistic' Modes to select from, this could help?

[La Furia Roja]

i guess the obvious questions are why are you playing it and why are you here, you obviously hate the game, its not easy enough for you and nothing anyone can provide can be good enough for you. If all the extra information was given to us in a nice little package how many pages should it be so you can be happy?

[gonzdons]

I disagree, EA are the biggest joke, not a bit, the biggest.

Whats not to like about the 3d Match Engine, its great and even better with the new patch.

I agree with you on the realism, but then again I prefer it that way, so do many others, thats why we all come back. If I wanted an arcadey type football management game I'd go and buy one of the other generic ones available, but they never compare to FM.

One idea that could solve the problem, is in FM10 having 'Easy/Medium/Hard/Realistic' Modes to select from, this could help?

I think that's not a bad idea at all, but I would like to see it being a bit more integrated than that. My idea, and it is only my idea, is that there should be a certain amount of scalability in the game. IE, if you want to define and refine everything to the nth detail, then you shpuld be able to do so, but if you're not so bothered, then there are certain things you should be able to turn off - eg, team talks, press conferences, etc.

Even then, there should be options for feedback from your staff on how your tactics are performing. The current guidance tells you absolutely nothing about if you are playing the wrong game for the team in question, and instead concentrates on the specifics, eg mark kerr is more used to closing down, than he is currently instructed to do so. I feel, that such minor detail should be within the intelligence of the manager, and it is these finite details that should ultimately make the difference. Therefore, these instructions should go, and instead be replaced with information regarding the teams style of play, etc. I find it annoying, for example, that I can find success with a particular team, playing either:

1) Quick, direct, defensive, counter attack football, or;

2) Slow, short, attacking, expansive football; and get know clues as to how I am going wrong, when results are bad.

Basically, you have no clue what football to play, as any is equally effective, or equally poor.

[La Furia Roja]

do watch the matches or just highlights? I find that you can generllay see where teams are making breaks, or where you are constantly losing the ball etc then you can see how to rectify it. Eg. if your defenders are constantly having intercepts on there passes near your box, set them to play it long more often etc etc

[gonzdons]

i guess the obvious questions are why are you playing it and why are you here, you obviously hate the game, its not easy enough for you and nothing anyone can provide can be good enough for you. If all the extra information was given to us in a nice little package how many pages should it be so you can be happy?

Yeah thanks for your gormless input - you are about as useful as my ASSMAN! If you don't like what I have to say, then get lost - no-one will miss what you have to say.. especially as it is so banal and pointless.. again very much like my ASSMAN.. are you an ASSMAN??

[PaulC]

Bottom line, Mr "gonzdons", if you dont like the game now you may never do.

But then the point made by many about the tactical interface is I think a valid one and one we have definitely taken on board.

What we wont do is dumb the game down, or add difficulty levels. For me the choice of team is your difficulty level.

[Wayne\'o]

i dont think all people will enjoy the game, i think we just have to make the best of whats on offer, lets face it, its not that bad really is it!

And to the main topic rant, IRL winger do all the running and will tire quicker so they are always replaced as are most strikers.

[whale]

There is no need to be so offensive - to pick out some words at random - 'gormless', 'pathetic', the latter being aimed at one of the authors of the TT&F guide, which is supposed to be extremely helpful to people like yourself struggling with the game.

The game is now more realistic, but sales figures and this forum would indicate that the vast majority of players are happy with this direction. As to your original points, there is nothing wrong with closing down from my perspective with the latest patch, just take into account fitness etc as other posters have commented.

The game is not easy. However, using nothing more than logic, observation and a modicum of real football knowledge from watching and playing - I have managed to come up with a tactical approach which has led to success and enjoyment with teams from both ends of the spectrum.

But clearly the game cannot be all things to all people - perhaps you need to let go, and accept that FM is not something you enjoy any more?

[Ricky Riccardo]

I think that's not a bad idea at all, but I would like to see it being a bit more integrated than that. My idea, and it is only my idea, is that there should be a certain amount of scalability in the game. IE, if you want to define and refine everything to the nth detail, then you shpuld be able to do so, but if you're not so bothered, then there are certain things you should be able to turn off - eg, team talks, press conferences, etc.

Yeah thats how Id see it if they did implement something like that, for example a 'level of detail' on difficulty, I was just giving a basic idea.

However, we both don't know how hard this would be to implement and what effect it would have on the game.

Even then, there should be options for feedback from your staff on how your tactics are performing. The current guidance tells you absolutely nothing about if you are playing the wrong game for the team in question, and instead concentrates on the specifics, eg mark kerr is more used to closing down, than he is currently instructed to do so. I feel, that such minor detail should be within the intelligence of the manager, and it is these finite details that should ultimately make the difference. Therefore, these instructions should go, and instead be replaced with information regarding the teams style of play, etc. I find it annoying, for example, that I can find success with a particular team, playing either:.

1) Quick, direct, defensive, counter attack football, or;

2) Slow, short, attacking, expansive football; and get know clues as to how I am going wrong, when results are bad.

Basically, you have no clue what football to play, as any is equally effective, or equally poor

The thing is, I don't think you should look at what your Assistant says and follow it to a T. I don't ever listen to my assistant, he is there for training basically. He will tell you more about how he wants the team to play and his style of coaching, not yours. So sack him and find an assistant that is more your style. For starters, I could care less if player A isnt used to working his arse off in the game, he will adapt eventually and if he doesn't there is no point keeping him because he does not fit in your tactic.

But there could be more feedback, it would be nice, but then again it would make it too easy.

[La Furia Roja]

Yeah thanks for your gormless input - you are about as useful as my ASSMAN! If you don't like what I have to say, then get lost - no-one will miss what you have to say.. especially as it is so banal and pointless.. again very much like my ASSMAN.. are you an ASSMAN??

Ha ASSMAN, lol made me chuckle.

Back to the point, what have you actually done about fixing your tactics before you had your rant?

[lukegjpotter]

Dude take a chill pill.

FM is about the pursuit of perfection.

Its about taking a team you love to the top.

[backpackant]

Wow, these posts are getting boring. Can't possibly read every post in here, so I'll just address the main concern that most people seem to be having with FM09.

Namely, the thinking that you have to be a tactical genius is just plain ridiculous.

After struggling to create a decent tactic for a few seasons (as Newcastle) I have now played seasons 2011 - 2014 with a slightly tweaked 4-4-2 from the default menu, having signed appropriate players for those positions. EG, in the "default 4-4-2 attack" the centre-right midfielder has a free role, dribble often, forward runs often. The tactic also uses a playmaker. Therefore, I have two CM or AMCs that have high passing, creativity, dribbling, anticipation and stamina. To me this is just plain intuitive (Axel Witsel has just taken over from van der Vaart on my game). The only time you need to download others' tactics is if you want to win the league every season using using ME exploits and demand that your team - whether it is Harrogate Town, Burnley, Cork City or Man United - win everything every season.

I haven't won the league yet with Newcastle but came within 4 points last season and have been in the CL places 4 years running - an achievement that the Newcastle fans and board would realistically be delighted with.

9.2.0 had its problems, but was more than playable. 9.3.0 is so much better and actually looks like proper football. When you have a lot of players set to "often" forward runs they tire more quickly. I won't go into too much detail with my tactics, but essentially I have a lot of forward runs in the first half, then start the second half more conservatively. Unless I STARTED conservatively, in which case I'll knock it up a notch - all depends on who I'm playing. But the principle remains the same: 4-4-2, slightly tweaked.

[elsgouro]

From a casual player's point of view, someone who cannot spend more than an hour or so every day, the game is not so difficult nor time consuming. I mean, with just a few advice from the "experts", within less than an hour you can create a descent tactic (and one or two slightly tweaked versions of it) and have some success. I'm not talking about 100% domination, but enough to make you enjoy the game and progress to the next level.

Personaly I found the "simplicity tactical guide" (or something like this) to be both helpfull and time-saving, but at the same time allowing you to add your own ideas in the tactics you use. If someone has more time to spend on the game, I'm sure that can do much better.

[Lobaeux]

Sorry, but you're on crack! Not only was 9.2 a great game, 9.3 is even better!

[Suttface]

FM is after all, supposed to be fun and enjoyable, but for the vast majority of users, this game has now become and absolute pain in the arse to play!

I love comments like this- "the vast majority of users". On what scientific study do you base that assumption? For the record, I think 9.3.0 has been a triumph but I guess that would make me a "fanboy". Yawn.

[backpackant]

I love comments like this- "the vast majority of users". On what scientific study do you base that assumption? For the record, I think 9.3.0 has been a triumph but I guess that would make me a "fanboy". Yawn.

The "vast majority" is the small vocal number of people on here that a handful of gamers listen to. Anyone with a different view is a fanboy. If you offer advice on how to get better results, you are a "fanboy" because certain people want to play the game the way they want to play the game. Unfortunately they can't do that - a bit like "wanting" to play COD4 with a machete and saying the game is broken because you can't win by doing so.

[Suttface]

The "vast majority" is the small vocal number of people on here that a handful of gamers listen to. Anyone with a different view is a fanboy. If you offer advice on how to get better results, you are a "fanboy" because certain people want to play the game the way they want to play the game. Unfortunately they can't do that - a bit like "wanting" to play COD4 with a machete and saying the game is broken because you can't win by doing so.

I agree. If people don't like FM 2009 as it is now (post patch 9.3.0) then it simply is not the game for them.

[Misodoctakleidist]

A lot people seem to be saying that you should be able to have success without having to spend hours reading the tactics forum. Well I've never set foot in the tactics forum, and I'm doing just fine.

I can sort of understand the people who want to buy eleven awesome players and see them rip teams apart without having to worry about tactics. Perhaps a better solution than difficulty levels would be to allow people to hire an assistant manager who takes care of tactics and training. There would be a tick box in Team Settings saying something like "let assistant take care of tactics." When it's ticked it would present the user with a simplified tactics screen.

So for example, you could tell him the basic shape you want to play (4-4-2, 4-3-3, 4-5-1 etc.) and maybe some basic aspects of playing style (possession or counter-attack, attacking or defensive etc.) then he does the rest. The effectiveness of the tactic he devises would depend on his ability, and how closely it matches his preferred style.

[russ the womble]

I think that's not a bad idea at all, but I would like to see it being a bit more integrated than that. My idea, and it is only my idea, is that there should be a certain amount of scalability in the game. IE, if you want to define and refine everything to the nth detail, then you shpuld be able to do so, but if you're not so bothered, then there are certain things you should be able to turn off - eg, team talks, press conferences, etc.

You can already tell your assistant manager to take charge of press conferences and team talks. Just find a decent Assistant Manager.

Even then, there should be options for feedback from your staff on how your tactics are performing. The current guidance tells you absolutely nothing about if you are playing the wrong game for the team in question, and instead concentrates on the specifics, eg mark kerr is more used to closing down, than he is currently instructed to do so. I feel, that such minor detail should be within the intelligence of the manager, and it is these finite details that should ultimately make the difference. Therefore, these instructions should go, and instead be replaced with information regarding the teams style of play, etc. I find it annoying, for example, that I can find success with a particular team, playing either:

The Assistant gives feed back on tactics, ie The team should play more direct. The rest can be worked out by watching matches or trying/testing.

As a lot have said, you can do equally well using the default formations. I read T&TF and then devised my own formation. My mate had not read it and was using a slightly tweaked 4-4-2 and was beating me in the league, so you cna be perfectly successful using the defaults.

Just to be clear - NO USER SHOULD HAVE TO RESULT TO EXTERNAL SOURCES TO BE ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME, AND CURRENTLY NEARLY EVERY USER IN THE KNOW ALREADY DOES (TT&F, etc) AND THOSE THAT DON'T KNOW, HAVE GIVEN UP PLAYING THE GAME, ALREADY.

How do you know if nearly every user 'in the know' (I assume you mean those that have worked out how to make successful tactics) has read the TT&F forum or manual? The majority of FM gamers have probably not even registered on the forum and many are probably totally unaware of it. Maybe a lot of these have worked out the tactics in their spare time and see no need to read up elsewhere? What yuo are suggesting is only those that have read through TT&F are the only ones left playing, which is obviously not the case. Only 80,000 views for the TT&F thread which suggests that less than (probably) 1% have felt the need to resort to it.

[aiston]

It has made a great game even better in my opinion, never has an FM/CM game have I went past 10 seasons before getting bored, I am STILL in my first career game. I am in my 22nd season and still having fun and wondering what I can win next.

"And to all you "fanboy" idiots out there, FM is supposed to be fun - which it is not, unless you have no actual life to lead of course" - You show yourself up as a fool there. Dont tell people it is not fun, they have their own opinions and well calling people fanboys because they like the game, realy is there any need??

"I feel that I shouldn't have to spend hours/days/weeks" - You clearly are not very good, I spent 10 minutes making my tactic and have not needed to change it in 22 seasons.

[Peter G]

It's a game and these moments happen in real life. Look at Paul Scholes, hadn't scored since August then scored a 30-yarder against Barcelona.

[Rupal]

You can already tell your assistant manager to take charge of press conferences and team talks. Just find a decent Assistant Manager.

Unfortunately, even a relatively good assman can mess it up. And there have been threads which suggest that it is a mistake to use the same team talk more than twice in a row. They tend to keep using 'You can win tonight'. So it's not a totally safe option to let the assman do them.

Team talks and press conferences need some work to make them less of a chore and more logical.

[Loversleaper]

The "vast majority" is the small vocal number of people on here that a handful of gamers listen to. Anyone with a different view is a fanboy. If you offer advice on how to get better results, you are a "fanboy" because certain people want to play the game the way they want to play the game. Unfortunately they can't do that - a bit like "wanting" to play COD4 with a machete and saying the game is broken because you can't win by doing so.

Imagine one of the 'fan-boys' turn the tables just for once and make a post/thread like so:

"to all the boo-boys, it sounds like reading 20 pages is going to take years and your village elders should get together and discuss the shocking level of schooling in this present time. If you hate the game for years then why do you even play? Are you here just to make confrontations with the first person you meet perposely? Games on the market have a 'new' audience and they are not designed for specific people so cry me a river. You want us all to sit and watch a two colored line move back and forth in front of our eyes? How selfish of the 'fan-boys' so lets make the game how you want to have it..."

Now that wouldn't be fair now would it...

[russ the womble]

Unfortunately, even a relatively good assman can mess it up. And there have been threads which suggest that it is a mistake to use the same team talk more than twice in a row. They tend to keep using 'You can win tonight'. So it's not a totally safe option to let the assman do them.

Team talks and press conferences need some work to make them less of a chore and more logical.

I've only used the Ass Man to carry out Press Conferences - to be fair he does a fair job (as long as your assistant manager is decent). I normally seek his advice on team talks but change it half the time. I don't know how he works out if you take his advice all the time.

However both options are there if people don't want to take part in such antics.

[armann99]

I disagree, EA are the biggest joke, not a bit, the biggest.

Whats not to like about the 3d Match Engine, its great and even better with the new patch.

I agree with you on the realism, but then again I prefer it that way, so do many others, thats why we all come back. If I wanted an arcadey type football management game I'd go and buy one of the other generic ones available, but they never compare to FM.

One idea that could solve the problem, is in FM10 having 'Easy/Medium/Hard/Realistic' Modes to select from, this could help?

The day Si implement a "Easy/Medium/Hard/Realistic' Modes thats the day I will stop playing the game, sound really bad in my ears. I really enjoy playing the game as it is today and with the latest patch i love it.

I have had my tactics ruined everytime there has been a new patch but I have always been able to make a new tactic.

But what I do agree with is the you should not have to come to these forums and read 50 pages in the T&TF to make a decent/good tactic. And it should be a little more user friendly.

[meomao]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I want just to say one thing about the OP position. I do agree that the game is not improved since the CM/FM split or at least since FM 07. And I do agree that with every iteration of the franchise, the game looks more and more like a sim and less like a proper management game.

In my opinion the problem is not difficulty. A game like that should be difficult. The problem is that in the pursuit of realism, the creator of the game seems to forget playability from time to time. So, it's not a problem of difficulty. A game like that should reward planning, thinking and good strategy. But realism and complexity obviously isn't difficulty or depth. Quite, the opposite imho.

The problem is that the game have become too complex (not too difficult) and has completely lost what make it great at first, simplicity.

Imho, all those problem could be resolved with a complete rework of the user interface that should become more informative, more responsive, easier to navigate and easier to use. The gameplay should be smoother while now it has become a pain in the arse imho.

For example, the fact that so many people used the scout tools like genie scout, offers a clear indication that the scout tools within the game weren't informative and easy enough to use and navigate.

My two cents, I just would like to have a simpler game, not an easier one.

[Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover]

I've read TT&F and although some of it is relevent I find it mainly describing the World of real-life football and not necessarily the game. There is a difference and a big one.

[Stephanie McMahon\'s Secret Lover]

Sorry forgot to add that biggest complaint about the game is that it is becoming more and more un-user friendly. A lot could be done to improve this.

In fact if SI pay me minimum wage for a week I'll pop into SI towers and give them a hand.

[wwfan]

Only 80,000 views for the TT&F thread which suggests that less than (probably) 1% have felt the need to resort to it.

Closer to 1/4 of a million if you look through all the sites hosting it, but still a point well made.

[Wakers]

I find it stupid that gonz got a red card after hershie called him an idiot for making a valid post. Good moderating that.

[Matt ex SEGA]

He didn't get a red card, he got an infraction for the language he used.

Your further opinion on the moderation is not required.

[Wakers]

Look at Hershie's first post in this thread. I've gotten red cards for much less than that.

This place is just..

This game is turning into an EA franchise and another SEGA failure - and now the boards are going down the pan too because you can't express valid dislikes about the game without the moderators being bias against those who do.

[aiston]

Look at Hershie's first post in this thread. I've gotten red cards for much less than that.

This place is just..

This game is turning into an EA franchise and another SEGA failure - and now the boards are going down the pan too because you can't express valid dislikes about the game without the moderators being bias against those who do.

If you express dislikes by swearing etc, you deserve to be warned.

[Matt ex SEGA]

Valid dislike of the game is more than acceptable - there are many, many constructively critical threads which are fine.

There are also forum rules to be followed - swearing and abuse are not acceptable. gonzdons got a warning - he's still here and able to post.

[wwfan]

The only reason I haven't carded him more than once myself is because Matt intervened and he apologised.

He's called people fanboy idiots, morons, pathetic, gormless, notwithstanding the foul language. We don't hand out cards if people criticise the game. We do for obnoxious behaviour.

As Matt said, openly questioning moderation won't do you any good whatsoever, so I suggest you desist.

[Nebu]

Stop failing and coming here whining about how you fail.
The game is awesome, has always been and the latest patch has made some nice improvements to the engine. Sure it is a work in progress, but it'll get there.

[Wakers]

Stop failing and coming here whining about how you fail.
The game is awesome, has always been and the latest patch has made some nice improvements to the engine. Sure it is a work in progress, but it'll get there.

so this post doesn't deserve a card? Are there no forum rules about incitement?

[Nebu]

Im quite sure however, that continuing to discuss moderation, which btw this thread now seems to be about(?), is a no no, as stated by the moderator just in the post above me, mr. forum-policeman-wakers.

[Wakers]

Look Nebu, if people get carded for calling someone else fanboys and what not, then surely cards need to be handed out for trying to incite others as well. I would pm a mod about this but there's 0 chance they would respond.

[drunkpunk]

I personally like the in depth direction the game takes although a couple of years ago I really struggled with FM07. I recently went back to trying CM 01/02 and I just found it so unplayable (I'd like to try CM2 again at some point). All the things I have taken for granted in FM (especially 08 and 09) just weren't there. I can understand why a number of users can give up on games because the game does take a lot longer to get started. I have just started my career game with Arsenal in 9.3.0 after playing around with a few clubs and it took me at least 3 hours to get through pre-season (I'm managing 1st, reserve and u18 so that adds more time) and that probably is a little on the long time, but in the end I know the effort I put into setting up the game will be rewarding in the long run.
The game should be difficult and have no "this always works" solutions like I found older CM's to have. Again, personally I want the game to challenge me but not drive me to the point of insanity (yes I've thrown my mouse about in the past). However, I don't believe difficulty settings/levels are a way to go at all. What their should be (and to a small extent is) is aids to help you, especially at the beginning. We already have this with Assistant Manager feedback in games. This is by no means perfect but is a step in what I believe to be the right direction. More of these kinds of aids could be put into the game so that you can use it if you want or need it. For instance something like the "Add New Manager" wizard to help with say setting up tactics, more to help with setting up the style of play than anything else. With a few progress on the 3D styles of play will become more important (who wants boring long-ball, keeper lumping it to the striker style of play, lol). Certainly a more user friendly tactics screen would be welcome.

[backpackant]

so this post doesn't deserve a card? Are there no forum rules about incitement?

Doesn't look abusive to me. Where's the abuse/swearing?

[Wakers]

Doesn't look abusive to me. Where's the abuse/swearing?

Where did i say there was?

His post was clearly looking to incite people, particularly the OP.

[DanGLiverpool]

I don't get what the big deal is about tactics. I failed with loads of tactics designed by forumers, then I went to the standard 4-3-3 attacking, and am getting good success out of it. The preloaded tactics are better than you think.

[backpackant]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I want just to say one thing about the OP position. I do agree that the game is not improved since the CM/FM split or at least since FM 07. And I do agree that with every iteration of the franchise, the game looks more and more like a sim and less like a proper management game.

In my opinion the problem is not difficulty. A game like that should be difficult. The problem is that in the pursuit of realism, the creator of the game seems to forget playability from time to time. So, it's not a problem of difficulty. A game like that should reward planning, thinking and good strategy. But realism and complexity obviously isn't difficulty or depth. Quite, the opposite imho.

The problem is that the game have become too complex (not too difficult) and has completely lost what make it great at first, simplicity.

Imho, all those problem could be resolved with a complete rework of the user interface that should become more informative, more responsive, easier to navigate and easier to use. The gameplay should be smoother while now it has become a pain in the arse imho.

For example, the fact that so many people used the scout tools like genie scout, offers a clear indication that the scout tools within the game weren't informative and easy enough to use and navigate.

My two cents, I just would like to have a simpler game, not an easier one.

Now why can't more people discuss the game in this manner?

Although I personally find the game fairly simple, I can concede that if I were a first-time user then it would take a long, long time to get used to the game. As someone who has bought the game every year, it's more of a plug-and-play-and-experiment experience for me. Basically, checking out the new features, then fiddling with tactics, and then I'm away. I'll report bugs and upload examples, and watch the game improve as the patches arrive.

But that's what the T&TF is for. As the game gets more complex, the more instructions are needed. And the fans who have been with the game for a long time are largely satisfied - otherwise you'd have a lot more complaints on the forums.

If the game doesn't evolve it'll die. 3D was a huge advance, and this itteration was always going to take a while to bed in. 9.3.0 is a huge step up in quality IMO, and I expect FM10 will be too.

[backpackant]

Where did i say there was?

His post was clearly looking to incite people, particularly the OP.

You said it deserves a card. I don't think it was incitement either - the OP can't win and he's whining about it being the game's fault, or some such implication.

Plenty of people do well with simple tactics, using intuitive common sense (as I detailed in an earlier post in this thread).

Too many posts on this forum reflect today's society - "It's not my fault I've failed; someone else is to blame."

I said it was getting boring, although I suppose that is directed at all posts of this nature rather than the OP specifically, and I stand by that.