Lets Assume It's "MY" Fault (time to ask for help?)

Its either time to ask for help, or after playing FM in all its guises since first release, its time to hang up my boots.

Its not tactical help that i require(well, if it is, i'm definitely calling it a day?) its help that will stop me losing/drawing games like this on a regular basis.

I'd say probably a good 90% of games i draw/lose have match stats practically identical to the one above and its finally gotten to the point where if i cannot prevent this happening sometimes game after game, then i really have to walk away.

If this was happening just two or three times a season, i would'nt even worry about it, but this can happen game after game and i have finally had enough.

Its not like we concede an early goal all the time and the opposition shut up shop, this would at least be understandable if not still majorly frustrating and we are not regularly conceding late goals either, when the AI goes 4-2-4.

I might now have to accept though that it may well be something i'm doing/not doing, otherwise where do i go from here?

I admit to leaving team talks to my Ass Man, but after regularly checking on the response from these, he does tend to get a good reaction, which he also gets perfomance wise during matches.

So if anyone has any notions or pearls of wisdom, i'd be more than happy to hear them? i have tried to pre-empt a few obvious responses, but am pretty much open to discussion on anything at this time?

I have posted this in the General Discussion Forum, because i dont believe this to be a Tactics and Training issue, thanks.

I disagree, I think it is a tactics issue. whenever a similar or better team goes to 4-2-4 I throw in a free role DM for good measure, not sure if it works but I don't get results like that very often

I have noticed that I have dominated games but not won or draw, whereas the other team gets a couple of sniffs and scores, not like composure is amazing down in BSS.

I disagree, I think it is a tactics issue. whenever a similar or better team goes to 4-2-4 I throw in a free role DM for good measure, not sure if it works but I don't get results like that very often

Like i said, i dont have a problem with conceding late goals against the AI 4-2-4.

I do concede the odd late goal sure, but realistically so, its not a regular occurence.

wait for 930. it can't get worse.

wait for 930. it can't get worse.

There speaks a real optimist!

I know this is a common theme, but it's simply not a game problem. I often get this in reverse. In fact, most of this season (2013) I have been playing short, counter-attacking football and I'd say now the MAJORITY of my games the opposition has superior shots, CCCs, etc, and yet I'm 3rd after 15 matches.

I recently beat Man U with Newcastle and their shots were (from memory) around 24 to my 5 and I won 1-0. Admittedly my possession was higher, but in terms of chances, they should have won comfortably. Also happened against Atalanta in the CL, only they had even MORE chances to my TWO. I won 2-1 away.

My wonder tactic? (Look away now if you don't like reading other people's tactics):

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"4-4-2 Attacking" from the default menu, the only thing changed being the MC with the backward arrow now has no arrow. That's it. I just throw players on whose ability matches the positions and hey presto. I do have two other bespoke tactics which I employ when chasing/defending games but for the most part I'm happy with what I'm doing.

The other thing to think about it varying the training. I have specific regimes for ST, Att-Mid, Def-Mid, & Defense. Whenever I have a dip in form I throw everyone into the default "General" category. My thinking is that the individual sessions mean their technical skills are focussed on but when they're all together they gel as a team. When that wavers and they start missing obvious chances, I redistribute them to the individual sessions again. I'd say I rotate them twice a season, but thinking about doing it more often.

it's true, it happens too ofte and even if your 4-1 up you can't be certain of maintaining it

I know this is a common theme, but it's simply not a game problem. I often get this in reverse. In fact, most of this season (2013) I have been playing short, counter-attacking football and I'd say now the MAJORITY of my games the opposition has superior shots, CCCs, etc, and yet I'm 3rd after 15 matches.

I recently beat Man U with Newcastle and their shots were (from memory) around 24 to my 5 and I won 1-0. Admittedly my possession was higher, but in terms of chances, they should have won comfortably. Also happened against Atalanta in the CL, only they had even MORE chances to my TWO. I won 2-1 away.

My wonder tactic? (Look away now if you don't like reading other people's tactics):

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

"4-4-2 Attacking" from the default menu, the only thing changed being the MC with the backward arrow now has no arrow. That's it. I just throw players on whose ability matches the positions and hey presto. I do have two other bespoke tactics which I employ when chasing/defending games but for the most part I'm happy with what I'm doing.

The other thing to think about it varying the training. I have specific regimes for ST, Att-Mid, Def-Mid, & Defense. Whenever I have a dip in form I throw everyone into the default "General" category. My thinking is that the individual sessions mean their technical skills are focussed on but when they're all together they gel as a team. When that wavers and they start missing obvious chances, I redistribute them to the individual sessions again. I'd say I rotate them twice a season, but thinking about doing it more often.

That's the strange thing about this game, you can put together a really good run whilst being outplayed every week (ie oppo having more CCCs than you) or you can lose every week dominating games.

That's the strange thing about this game, you can put together a really good run whilst being outplayed every week (ie oppo having more CCCs than you) or you can lose every week dominating games.

I think that's very true. Is it because of the amount of influence which things like team talks and press conferences have?

Taken in conjunction with what backpackant has said, it makes you feel that there is a deliberate 'stroppiness' about the AI. Probably just being paranoid....

It's not the worst yet.

Everybody should see this...

wait for 930. it can't get worse.

I'm kind of hoping someone will post something that will open Pandora's Box and a light will go on in my head and i'll think "How dumb am i for missing that?", like maybe i have'nt turned off the "ME to produce ridiculous games and stats" tick box?

You never know mate? (lol)

Looking at Backpackants post is utterly depressing, imagine a real life Footy Manager putting his team out using a tactic he can basically guarantee getting outplayed using?

I'm still hopeful of some solid pearls of wisdom.

I would be prepared to bet a large sum of money that 1) somebody will come on this thread and say that 'these things happen in the real world' or words to that effect and that you shouldn't be a bad loser, Hammer1000, 2) that somebody will say that it never happens to them and that it must be your tactics without explaining what the problem is likely to be and 3) that SI will do absolutely nothing about it.

Any takers??

it's not going to happen, your stats are showing there's nothing wrong with your tactics, i remember last year it was common to be suggested that you need to have tactic with less shots which will resoult with more goals being scored?!? but when you consider that final scores need to balance over a course of a season, maybe it does make 'sense'. you need to be worse (or at least not too good) for this game to feel more realistic (you can't win PL with West Ham, can you ). more you overachieve, stranger your matches will look.

Looking at the stats (and having not seen the game), it looks typical of either too many long shots or strikers trying to finish when they are too far out.

Maybe a slower build up or trying to get better passes behind the backline would help....

And buy a better crosser of the ball!!

Or just shout at your PC until the problem goes away....works for me!

I would be prepared to bet a large sum of money that 1) somebody will come on this thread and say that 'these things happen in the real world' or words to that effect and that you shouldn't be a bad loser, Hammer1000, 2) that somebody will say that it never happens to them and that it must be your tactics without explaining what the problem is likely to be and 3) that SI will do absolutely nothing about it.

Any takers??

Ha Ha, no thanks.

Mitja - Nail on the head mate.

The only thing I will say is that it most definitely is down to something you are or are not doing.

People have brought the same issue up in these forums for a while now, it came up a lot during FM08, and in the end it is always down to the persons tactics in some way, and can therefore be eliminated using the tactical interface. The simple fact is that if this was not the case then everyone would be complaining about it. So far I've seen very few complaints about this for FM09, much fewer than there were for FM08.

Unfortunately I for one am a little baffled by the tactics in FM09, so I can't direct you to what it is that is actually causing this issue for you. And that's the problem for me, I know it is down to tactics, and I know it can be eliminated by tactical manipulation. But how do you figure out what that tactical change needs to be? Currently it's very difficult to and you don't get much help from the game, especially when it looks like your tactic is performing well.

But despite that, the fact remains that this is not down to the game cheating you, it is simply down to something going wrong tactically.

I would be prepared to bet a large sum of money that 1) somebody will come on this thread and say that 'these things happen in the real world' or words to that effect and that you shouldn't be a bad loser, Hammer1000, 2) that somebody will say that it never happens to them and that it must be your tactics without explaining what the problem is likely to be and 3) that SI will do absolutely nothing about it.

Any takers??

it's starting...

There you are Hammer1000 - the first of the 'it's your tactics but don't ask me what' replies has come in already!!

Looking at the stats (and having not seen the game), it looks typical of either too many long shots or strikers trying to finish when they are too far out.

Maybe a slower build up or trying to get better passes behind the backline would help....

And buy a better crosser of the ball!!

Or just shout at your PC until the problem goes away....works for me!

yeah I agree, playing fast tempo and attacking oriented football never worked out in real life. that's why Man Utd are so succesfull with their slow-build up, catanaccio tactics.

Mitja and Rupal - I love you guys/gals (lol)

There you are Hammer1000 - the first of the 'it's your tactics but don't ask me what' replies has come in already!!

That's not quite what I said if you read it properly. It's always great when people can't even consider another side to the argument and 'know' that the game is at fault so they must be right an no-one else can possible say anything different

The simple fact remains that if this wasn't in some way down to something that the user was doing then everyone would be having the exact same issue. Because they aren't then you have to accept that the user can have an impact on this and change it.

The real issue is that it's far too dificult for the user to understand the how and the why. The tactic looks like it is performing well, there are plenty of chances etc etc. But the fundimental fact is that if you're getting these kind of results then it isn't. But it's far too difficult to figure that out at the moment, and even more difficult to know how to solve it.

Let me put it more simply for those who love to blindly claim that any counter argument is simply someone saying 'It's your tactics':

Plenty of people have avoided this problem, so it is down to something you are or are not doing. The problem with the current game is that it's too difficult to know what this something is and how to change it.

Mitja and Rupal - I love you guys/gals (lol)

Why? Because they simply agreed with you without adding anything constructive to this particular debate?

Chopper99, you said that it must be something that he was or was not doing but that you didn't know what it was.

With great respect, that's exactly what I predicted that someone would do.

90%?... I have seen some of your posts and never has it been like that all the whole way through a season (you could try re-loading though). You are saying this happens all the time, give me the instuctions you have and I will try them out and see if 90% is an accurate assumption, ok?

On top of that you say that you are going to leave for ever and it's time to hang your boots up for as long as you have been around... we don't believe you anymore...

The only thing I will say is that it most definitely is down to something you are or are not doing.

People have brought the same issue up in these forums for a while now, it came up a lot during FM08, and in the end it is always down to the persons tactics in some way, and can therefore be eliminated using the tactical interface. The simple fact is that if this was not the case then everyone would be complaining about it. So far I've seen very few complaints about this for FM09, much fewer than there were for FM08.

Unfortunately I for one am a little baffled by the tactics in FM09, so I can't direct you to what it is that is actually causing this issue for you. And that's the problem for me, I know it is down to tactics, and I know it can be eliminated by tactical manipulation. But how do you figure out what that tactical change needs to be? Currently it's very difficult to and you don't get much help from the game, especially when it looks like your tactic is performing well.

But despite that, the fact remains that this is not down to the game cheating you, it is simply down to something going wrong tactically.

how can it be tactical problem if it's obvious his tactics are spot on. i hope you're not suggesting the less is more? i agree a part of it could be tactical problem. but no one is able to tell what it is. maybe too atacking mentality, time wasting or fast tempo, resoulting in rushed shots. but even then it shows that tactics need to improve and change. tactics shouldn't be experimenting and guessing of sliders.

Perhaps Rupal, but I think it was obvious that there was a much deeper meaning to my post than me saying 'It's your tactics but don't ask me what' as you first suggested.

Unfortunately this issue is caused by tactics, and can be eradicated using the tactical interface, there's no getting away from that fact. But as I said, the real issue that needs to brought to SI's attention is that the current tactical interface (and to some extent the match engine) makes it far too difficult for users to realise this and know how to do something about it.

To insinuate that the game is simply cheating and no matter what you do these issues cannot be avoided is helping no-one.

how can it be tactical problem if it's obvious his tactics are spot on. i hope you're not suggesting the less is more? i agree a part of it could be tactical problem. but no one is able to tell what it is. maybe too atacking mentality, time wasting or fast tempo, resoulting in rushed shots. but even then it shows that tactics need to improve and change. tactics shouldn't be experimenting and guessing.

Is that not obviously the point I was making?

The fact is that it is down to tactics, and tactical changes can get rid of this issue, people are doing it all the time whether they know how they are doing it or not.

The problem is that the tactic looks like it's working on the face of it and the user is given no tools to help understand why it is not working, let alone how to change it for the better.

That's not quite what I said if you read it properly. It's always great when people can't even consider another side to the argument and 'know' that the game is at fault so they must be right an no-one else can possible say anything different

The simple fact remains that if this wasn't in some way down to something that the user was doing then everyone would be having the exact same issue. Because they aren't then you have to accept that the user can have an impact on this and change it.

The real issue is that it's far too dificult for the user to understand the how and the why. The tactic looks like it is performing well, there are plenty of chances etc etc. But the fundimental fact is that if you're getting these kind of results then it isn't. But it's far too difficult to figure that out at the moment, and even more difficult to know how to solve it.

Let me put it more simply for those who love to blindly claim that any counter argument is simply someone saying 'It's your tactics':

Plenty of people have avoided this problem, so it is down to something you are or are not doing. The problem with the current game is that it's too difficult to know what this something is and how to change it.

Thing is Chopper, despite all this i regularly overachieve, so how is it tactical?

Appreciate your input as always.

Thing is Chopper, despite all this i regularly overachieve, so how is it tactical?

Appreciate your input as always.

You over-achieve but this happens 90% of the time?...

Why? Because they simply agreed with you without adding anything constructive to this particular debate?

there's not much constructivness which could be added to this thread. if we knew how to solve this problem we wouldn't be here. but i'm 90% sure what it is the issue here.

Essentially, Chopper99, Hammer1000 was asking for helpful suggestions about what to do. Your post didn't provide any.

You are assuming that the issue is caused by tactics and can be eradicated by using the tactical interface. I'm afraid that that is an assumption. Just because it doesn't happen to everyone, it does not follow that it is a tactical matter. It could be related to team talks, press relationships, the weather, the 'butterfly effect', an overall 'balancing' effect designed to 'punish' over achieving teams, to other hidden factors of which only SI have knowledge or to a combination of all or any of those.

Your point about the tactical interface being unsatisfactory is, of course, quite correct.

Why? Because they simply agreed with you without adding anything constructive to this particular debate?

As for this mate, we three chat a lot, see the same issues regarding the game and are friends, i was just thanking them for replying for me.

Thing is Chopper, despite all this i regularly overachieve, so how is it tactical?

Appreciate your input as always.

Because you're drawing or losing games that you dominate and a lot of other people aren't. Simple as that.

As I said, the problem is down to the fact that your tactic looks to be performing well, and in many games you will be overachieving. But you will come up against some teams that play a certain way, you will dominate possession and have chances, but not manage to beat them. Other people will come up against these teams and hammer them (excuse the pun ). The problem is that there is nothing to indicate to people like yourself why you look to be dominating these teams yet not managing to break them down, and even less to help you know what to do about it.

I agree with you that it is a problem, but at the same time we all need to accept that this can be changed using tactics, it's not the game cheating you out of a victory or being pre-programmed to keep the league even etc. You can win any game you go into. The real problem is the feedback (or lack of it) given to the user and the overly complex and unrealistic tactical system.

but i'm 90% sure what it is the issue here.

And what's that?

I agree with you that it is a problem, but at the same time we all need to accept that this can be changed using tactics, it's not the game cheating you out of a victory or being pre-programmed to keep the league even etc.

Why? What evidence have you for this?

Is that not obviously the point I was making?

The fact is that it is down to tactics, and tactical changes can get rid of this issue, people are doing it all the time whether they know how they are doing it or not.

The problem is that the tactic looks like it's working on the face of it and the user is given no tools to help understand why it is not working, let alone how to change it for the better.

the only thing we disagree is that you think this problem is tactics related and we believe it's not. well i will leave a little chance it could be. you remember probably that the game is made so that scores balance over a season so they produce beliveble resoults at the end. this is ok but it also produces unbelivable matches. some will notice it (more you overachieve) and some won't.

they took a short cut. from what i've seen from my matches and Hammer's posts and other people, many matches which should have freaky scores but they end up 1-0. you don't see teams dominating game after game but loosing or drawing for example in RL. it happens to AI as well and it evens (at least that was my experience), but it's easier for human players to overachieve. i'm defently not suggesting the game cheats. better tactical interface and improved AI would be far better/realistic features. defensivly the ME is crap.

You are assuming that the issue is caused by tactics and can be eradicated by using the tactical interface. I'm afraid that that is an assumption. Just because it doesn't happen to everyone, it does not follow that it is a tactical matter. It could be related to team talks, press relationships, the weather, the 'butterfly effect', an overall 'balancing' effect designed to 'punish' over achieving teams, to other hidden factors of which only SI have knowledge or to a combination of all or any of those.

I disagree. I've read plenty of Hammers posts and know that he is quite capable of winning games and often overachieves. That tells me that he doesn't have a problem with team talks, moral, press etc. He has a problem breaking down some weaker teams despite dominating against them. This will be down to his tactics and will have very little to do with the other things you have mentioned.

I also disagree that there is any kind of hidden 'balancing effect' in the game or anything of the sort. Plenty of people manage to over-achieve in this game, and while I myself am not a tactical expert, I guarentee you that if Hammer uploaded this save before this game there would be people who could win it comfortably using their own tactics.

There are plenty of problems with the current game, I've mentioned many of them myself, but it is not programmed to cheat you.

You over-achieve but this happens 90% of the time?...

90% of games i dont win, i'm sure i said that?

Also, i have NEVER won a game like that in all my days of playing this game, yet regularly lose them.

It appears very much to be a AI only trait, unless of course you use terrible tactics that see you always being outplayed, then you'd have to get a couple of these in your favour.

It also appears that these things occur just to scupper good runs, or to stop unrealistic over achievement, like winning the title with Hull first season.

This would be necessary for a weak ME to keep things in order, i have been convinced of this for a long time, but have opened this thread willing for someone to give me an answer that will show this NOT to be the case?

Chopper99, if he is capable of winning games and often overachieves that suggests to me that he doesn't have a problem with tactics either.

Your argument is shot through with unwarranted assumptions.

It appears very much to be a AI only trait, unless of course you use terrible tactics that see you always being outplayed, then you'd have to get a couple of these in your favour.

If backpackant is right, you'd get more than a couple of games in your favour.

Rupal, this quote from Hammer tells me different:

Also, i have NEVER won a game like that in all my days of playing this game, yet regularly lose them.

If that doesn't mean that his tactics are flawed against teams that play a certain way (probably defensive) then I don't know what does.

Again, the simple fact is that many many people do not suffer from this issue, despite over-achieving. So if that doesn't say his tactic is flawed agains certain teams what does it say?

Personally I used to have this problem all the time and then I actually read the tactical framework and started trying to play proper football. Sorry, I know it's not the answer you want to hear but it's perfectly true, stop blaming game mechanics for everything and actually take a moment to look.

I'll be nice for once and assume you really can play the game as others say but it's amazing how often we're all so locked up in ourselves and how great we are that by going back to basics we notice something really obvious in plans that limit us.

Oh and for people saying it's an AI only tactic - it's not, play a really strong sit, sit deep and play a very direct or long ball counter. YOu'll be surprised at how often it can work in your favour.

90% of games i dont win, i'm sure i said that?

Also, i have NEVER won a game like that in all my days of playing this game, yet regularly lose them.

It appears very much to be a AI only trait, unless of course you use terrible tactics that see you always being outplayed, then you'd have to get a couple of these in your favour.

It also appears that these things occur just to scupper good runs, or to stop unrealistic over achievement, like winning the title with Hull first season.

This would be necessary for a weak ME to keep things in order, i have been convinced of this for a long time, but have opened this thread willing for someone to give me an answer that will show this NOT to be the case?

It was just because you said that 90% of games had results like you mentioned in the first post, and then you said you over-achieve...it is a little contradictory. I will give you a straight answer just give me the instructions you are using and I will do some testing and see what is going on. But everytime some one has asked you for this or a PKM you always refuse, so you have put yourself in a never-ending cycle. Asking for help and then not letting anyone do so...

As much as i dislike the current ME and feel that the times you outplay the opponent and lose happens to often i have to agree with with chopper99.

The main issue is that there is no good way to tell what was wrong with a specific tactic or was it just bad luck.

I would guess looking at your stats that you play a quick and short passing with mixed/attacking mentality.

You have high pass compleation and high posession but low CCC. You still have many shots but few on goal.

My guess is you keep posesion because you play quick so the opponent can't catch you. This leeds them to stand of so all you do is move the ball in midfield and don't find spots to penetrate their defence so your players take shots from distance.

My guess would be to play wider, slower and more direct to try and spread them out so you find the openings in the box. Mabye higher mentality to take more chances on the through balls.

But i agree with the fact that it has to get clearer what has gone wrong when you lose games.

Chopper99, where did Hammer1000 say that all the teams he had this experience against played the same way?

If many people who over-achieve don't suffer this then all that shows is that there is some other factor involved. It does not show that it is tactical.

your playing as west ham.

Problem solved

If backpackant is right, you'd get more than a couple of games in your favour.

Agreed, it cannot let me win games like that because i'm overachieving as it is.

Chopper - You mention tactics against some teams are the problem, but i often come up against the same team one game after the other thanks to Cup draws.

Now lets say for instance that i played Sunderland in the FA Cup and the screenshot in my original post was that game o.k.

Now next game i'm away to them again in the EPL and i outplay them the same and win 6-0, how was it a tactical issue?

This has happened enough times for me to realise that it is'nt tactical, at least not in the way you are selling it, but i remain open to suggestions about how to reduce the number of times this occurs?(without having to sabotage my own tactic to do so)

There is a simple fact that unfortunately undermines the game in its current format and that is that the Match Engine still cannot cope with many user designed tactics.

wwfan who had a hand in developing the current engine admitted that the problems on FM 08 where caused by the fact that the match engine could not counter the "crazy arrow" tactics that were very popular, and as a result you would regularly see games where you had 20 plus shots to the computers 1 and still lose. Despite the removal of the ability to create crazy arrow tactics it would seem that we are still very much in the same boat.

I would guess that if you played a season with a default tactic, you would obtain less points over the course of a season than with a well constructed user tactic, but that you would feel that the outcomes of the individual matches were fairer.

If you play with a user designed tactic the computer teams are not capable of preventing you from creating a plethora of chances, so you will see the type of game that this thread is concerned with.

Away from tactics I am not at all happy with the effect team talks have on matches, I don't think these reflect real life at all and to have to take into account factors like how many times in a row you have used the same talk etc is just plain daft. I don't think team talks should ever have been introduced into the game to be honest as there is no way to make them realistic.

Chopper99, where did Hammer1000 say that all the teams he had this experience against played the same way?

He has said that he never wins games like this one, i.e. where he dominates the game but doesn't manage to win. In all of the screenshots I've seen this is against slightly weaker teams than his who have had little possession and few chances. That suggests quite strongly to me that they are all having to play in a similar way, it may be a slight assumption but I'm willing to bet that it has some truth to it

If many people who over-achieve don't suffer this then all that shows is that there is some other factor involved. It does not show that it is tactical.

Rupal, I think you're a very good poster and respect your views, but I'm afraid you're just clutching at straws now. If many people can manage to beat weaker teams and a smaller amount of people cannot, then that suggests that the minority of people most definitely are doing something differently. In most cases (including this one in my opinion) that difference will be tactical.