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Thread: Football Manager Wiki

  1. #2101
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Quote Originally Posted by arsenal_2111 View Post
    Could Rancer maybe do it? I think he's Canadian.

    Alternatively we could just make up the information
    Yeah he is, he could do it.

  2. #2102
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Understandable if he doesn't want to give his info for it tho. But that would be very good if he could, would look great.

  3. #2103
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    I'll ask JJay would he be able to sort it out for us first. That might be the easiest way to go.

  4. #2104
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    how come i cant get o fmwiki i really need it =[

  5. #2105
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    It appears to be down at the moment, hopefully it will be sorted soon. What is it you need it for? One of us may be able to help you

  6. #2106
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    I let our webmaster JJay know in my weekly "Annoy JJay with new suggestions for the site" PM. Hopefully he can sort it out

  7. #2107
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    thanks for the reply arsenal but i recently finished my man utd game got bored after 15 seasons tbh lol and wanna start another game, im not the best manager round here far from it so i want someoe that is a challenge but a do able challenge and in the prem tbh. i wanted to look at all the bedgets lol guess ill have to wait =[

  8. #2108
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Hopefully it'll be back up later tonight Josh, but it all depends on whether JJay comes back online. I know he's living in a different timezone so it mightn't be back up soon - not sure really.

    On a side note, I never even knew that we had a list of transfer budgets. That's pretty cool.

  9. #2109
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    yeah lol with like most of teams it tells you what budgets you can get with teams cause kind people have spent there time doing it =]

  10. #2110
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Just an update - I was speaking to JJay earlier today and he says he has contacted the guy that's in charge of the server, so it should be back up the next time he comes online. I've no idea when that'll be though.

  11. #2111
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    just noticed i cant get on the site, hope it gets sorted soon

  12. #2112
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    JJay's contacted the guy that made a mess of the site in the first place. Once he comes back online, it should be back up ;)

    Some edits will be made to the main page as well.

  13. #2113
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki



    We can't edit the main page! It's been like that for too long to change it now- I'm used to it

    What changes?

  14. #2114
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Relax, we're just changing around the links in the sidebar

  15. #2115
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    *wipes sweat from forehead*

  16. #2116
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    Any ideas on how long it will take Alan?

  17. #2117
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssestig View Post
    Any ideas on how long it will take Alan?
    None. I've been pestering JJay for the last day or so but he can't fix it. We have to wait for some guy to come online so he can fix it. Problem is that I don't have a clue when he's coming online.

  18. #2118
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Not good

  19. #2119
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    Bloody hell, didn't expect it to be this long.

  20. #2120
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Just following each other around here now
    Want to add more info on some other teams in Leagues 1 and 2.

  21. #2121
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Ok guys,

    Sorry about the delay but it's taken me a couple of days to track down Chris who I needed to speak to.

    Good news is that nothing has been lost as it has all been backed up - but Chris accidently deleted the folder containing the wiki files (which does not effect any of the database).

    I am in the process of moving that on to a server of its own now as it has grown so quickly

    With regards to footballmanagerwiki.co.uk email addresses, do you want a redirect email or a POP3 email address? The difference being that the redirect emails allow people to email it and that email goes to your normal email address - you can use these for MSN too. A POP3 inbox stores mails on the server and you can access these by a webmail portal or Outlook.

    I would prefer to give out redirect email addresses and that can be done easily If you want one then PM the name you want and I'll sort that out

    Sorry again about the unexpected downtime - it should be up again in the next 24 hours or so

  22. #2122
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    Thanks for the update JJay, glad it'll be back up soon. I'd prefer a redirect email address anyway. PM sent.
    Last edited by ahmufcwafc; 04-06-2009 at 17:36.

  23. #2123
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    Cheers JJay, thank you a lot for helping us out.

  24. #2124
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    Any idea when it might be back up JJay?

  25. #2125
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Just waiting for the DNS to change

    And I'm 75% done all the data uploads as I type

  26. #2126
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    I have no idea what you just said, but it sounds good

  27. #2127
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Basically waiting for the url (link www. thingy) to update to point to the new server.

    I'm uploading all your work on to the new server where nobody can delete it "by accident"

  28. #2128
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Double post

    Main thing though is nothing has been "lost"

  29. #2129
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Not even peter-evo's login? ;)

  30. #2130
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    what is the point of the wiki page like what gain a user gain from it?

  31. #2131
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Ever used Wikipedia?

  32. #2132
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    yes but like what could u gain all the facts are in the game

  33. #2133
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    If you seriously think that then I'm afraid you're a lost cause.

  34. #2134
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    ok my best friend

  35. #2135
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemoon1992 View Post
    what gain a user gain from it?
    Nothing, nothing at all. I take it you think that all of us here are complete lunatics now? ;)

  36. #2136
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemoon1992 View Post
    yes but like what could u gain all the facts are in the game
    If someone wants to just dabble in FM a few times a week, then they probably won't need any help from the Wiki. They'll not particularly care about when new youth players are created in France, they'll probably not care about how to keep your club in a healthy financial state and they won't particularly care about how to make the most out of a Commercial Feeder Club.

    If however, you're a serious FM gamer, then the Wiki is a very good source of information collated and explained by seasoned FM veterans

  37. #2137
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    Oh dear, we've been doing this site for so long, and there is no point.

    To answer seriously, because it was good question, the wiki shows a mix between unportrayed facts and community opinion. The facts that you see are either:

    - Not in the game or
    - Hard to find in the game

    The rest is mainly user opinion that people use when playing the game. The community builds up opinions and strategys when playing the game and some of our pages reflect the more popular.

    We also have a wide array of things that we think the readers would find interesting. Things like the:

    - Challenges
    - History
    - Issues

    , are all things that we believe the readers would be interested to learn about.

  38. #2138
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    Me being called a veteran. Not sure whether that's or makes me feel old

  39. #2139
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    Database has been restored 100%. Mediawiki will be updated to latest version - the only thing that I'm now awaiting is for Chris to forward me the files he deleted so I can upload the old images folder so we get all those back

    As for email addresses - I've only been asked by Alan for one

  40. #2140
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJay View Post
    Database has been restored 100%. Mediawiki will be updated to latest version - the only thing that I'm now awaiting is for Chris to forward me the files he deleted so I can upload the old images folder so we get all those back

    As for email addresses - I've only been asked by Alan for one
    So can we have more than one? Is it only admins who get them?

    Good to hear it will be up soon

  41. #2141
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    Can we have a 'Donate to FMWiki' button like normal Wiki have?

  42. #2142
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    All donations to me.

  43. #2143
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    Wouldn't it be best going to JJay who can then ask us what we want to do with it?

  44. #2144
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    But I already know exactly what we want so it makes little difference... ;)

  45. #2145
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    Ah, okay then.

  46. #2146
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    http://seoul.directrouter.com/~footb...itle=Main_Page

    This is a temporary fix, the full site should be back up tomorrow.

  47. #2147
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    That's cool Alan.

  48. #2148
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    You will notice that the images won't load - this is because I am awaiting the old images folder which I am expecting tomorrow (and disappointed that I haven't had this soon! Glad we're moving now )

    No need to upload the old images as I will do this as soon as I receive that folder
    Last edited by JJay; 07-06-2009 at 22:04.

  49. #2149
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    It's not working for me JJay.

  50. #2150
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    Yeah looks like it was my cache and it was loading locally The reason it didn't update within the 24 hours I said last time was because I stupidly put a comma instead of a period in the DNS and the change was rejected. This has been fixed now but at least the temporary url will be of use until tomorrow

  51. #2151
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    http://www.footballmanagerwiki.co.uk/

    It's back up now guys, images haven't been uploaded just yet though.

  52. #2152
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    I'm just doing those now

  53. #2153
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJay View Post
    I'm just doing those now
    Cheers JJay. Any idea why the upload file option has gone missing?

  54. #2154
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    I'll double check that now

  55. #2155
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    That has now been fixed

  56. #2156
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    We're down again.

  57. #2157
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    Up again but without pictures

  58. #2158
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    Any way that we can put the names with the accents etc. back to how they were guys?

  59. #2159
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    I was thinking they looked a little odd yesterday

    I'll see what I can do.

  60. #2160
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    Done. Let me know if I there's any other dodgy titles. The Hilario page was damaged in the shuffle for some reason,

  61. #2161
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    It's good to be back

  62. #2162
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Anyone else noticing a whole lot of pages have database errors?

  63. #2163
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    Erm... nope. What pages have you seen?

  64. #2164
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    769 articles in English

    That and the Hilario page so far.

  65. #2165
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    From player profiles:
    Juan Pablo Sorín
    Jérémy Toulalan
    Kaká (database error)
    Krisztián Németh (database error)
    Luka Modric (database error)
    Marc-Vivien Foé
    Marek Štěch
    Mariano Pernía
    Martin Skrtel (database error)
    Matías Fernández
    Milivoje Novakovič
    Márton Fulop
    Nemanja Vidic (database error)
    Oier Olazábal
    Owain Fôn Williams
    Pedro Rodríguez Ledesma
    Petr Cech (database error)
    Przemysław Kaźmierczak (database error - can't remember his name)
    Péter Gulácsi
    Péter Kurucz
    Rogério Ceni
    Rubén Miño Peralta
    Sami Hyypiä
    Saulius Mikoliūnas
    Sergi Barjuán
    Sergio Agüero
    Tabare Viudez
    Thiago Alcántara
    Thomas Müller
    Tó Madeira
    Víctor Sánchez Mata
    Víctor Vázquez Solsona
    Zdenek Grygera
    Zoltán Gera
    Zoltán Harsányi (database error)
    Álvaro Arbeloa
    Éver Banega

    All profiles are OK. It's just the page titles.

  66. #2166
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    Didn't realise there was more than one page of player profiles. I'll sort out the names for you in a bit.

  67. #2167
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    Yeah. I've been busy No rush mate with them. I'll add a few more tonight.

  68. #2168
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    I have added back the ParserFunctions extension - its obviously not converted backwards though thus the issue.

    The images are being uploaded - but on a 3g internet stick slower than I would like - 90mb of them! I am getting through them and I have this week off work to focus a little more on it (although the mrs is off too and giving me a hard time!)

  69. #2169
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    That's good news JJay. Didn't realise there were that many

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    Nor did I tbh - there's loads and for each one there is a thumbnail image too (often a few different sized thumbnails)

  71. #2171
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    I'm adding in some 'Most Wanted' pages to try and lower the amount of dead links - if anyone wants to develop these I'd be v. grateful.

  72. #2172
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    Quote Originally Posted by arsenal_2111 View Post
    I'm adding in some 'Most Wanted' pages to try and lower the amount of dead links - if anyone wants to develop these I'd be v. grateful.
    I've deleted some of the dead links for you.

    Stig, do you think we should have sub-categories for player profiles now? If so, how do you think they should be sorted?

  73. #2173
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    Yes I think sub-categories are needed for player profiles now. I think by league would be OK atm.
    If you want I can sort that out after you have made the sub-categories.
    Last edited by ssestig; 09-06-2009 at 22:00.

  74. #2174
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    Just a thought: Perhaps it'd be easier to go by nationality/region instead of leagues? I mean, because of constant transfers we'd have a lot of work to do re-categorising pages.

    Or we could always do both I suppose. What do you think?

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    Could categorise by region then by leagues but only update that by patch. Was also thinking of adding player histories for each player via an FM screenshot - any objections?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ssestig View Post
    Could categorise by region then by leagues but only update that by patch. Was also thinking of adding player histories for each player via an FM screenshot - any objections?
    Yeah, that's probably the best idea. Do you have many profiles on players playing outside of Europe?

    I'll re-name the European players category to Europe now.

    All sounds good to me

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    About 30 I think atm.

  78. #2178
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssestig View Post
    About 30 I think atm.
    Fair enough.

    So, just so I'm not misunderstanding, this is how you want it to be like: Region playing in > Country playing in > League > Team (when we reach the stage where we have enough profiles)

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Yes that's right. Though I like the system normal wiki has for players regarding those that have played for clubs being in a category but above system is fine for now.

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Quote Originally Posted by ssestig View Post
    Yes that's right. Though I like the system normal wiki has for players regarding those that have played for clubs being in a category but above system is fine for now.
    I'll make categories for clubs that have enough player profiles (lets say five?) shortly.

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    I think we need to avoid having them hidden away.

    Player Profiles > Region playing in > Country playing in > League > Team

    is a lot of work to get to where you want imo.

    But, then again, there are probably no better ways of doing it.

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    I hate to sound like a spoilsport, as this is an excellent idea that looks great. But there is one problem. I had a quick look around and it seems that a lot of articles have been copied and pasted from Wikipedia. This in itself is not a problem. Wikipedia licences its content under the GFDL, which does allow people to reuse its content for any purpose. However, it requires attribution. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikiped...ipedia_content for a brief overview of rules for reusing content, and an example notice that can be used to fulfil the licensing requirements.

    Not saying that the Wikimedia Foundation is going to sue you into Oblivion if you don't comply with the licensing requirements (they probably won't), but still.

    (FWIW, the articles I looked at via random page that were copied from Wikipedia were Carl Pentney, Gabriel Heinze (which semi-complies), and Federico Fazio).

    The best way to go about it would be probably be by creating a template for article creators to add to articles which they use from Wikipedia.

    The alternative, I suppose, is to just completely rewrite all WP-copied articles from scratch. This is obviously also the best option if you don't fancy licensing your articles under the same terms as WP's articles (i.e. free for anyone to reuse and/or modify for any purpose).

    If you need any help or have questions, feel free to ask, but it should be simple enough.

    Again, I don't mean to sound like a spoilsport, as it's a great-looking site.

  83. #2183
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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Thanks for the link Dreaded Walrus, it's good to actually know where we stand on this.

    I think almost all player profiles are copied from Wikipedia, and I have often said where I stand on this.

    We need to make sure we go by the book with this - we wouldn't want the site to be closed down or anything (unlikely, yes, but still possible).

    Obviously it has to be a team decision, but I think that if we were considerin rewriting them completely then the best option would be to only write a brief part about them in real life and more about them in FM.



    I don't think there are any other articles that have been copied from there have there? Actually, some competition guides maybe?

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Quote Originally Posted by arsenal_2111 View Post
    I don't think there are any other articles that have been copied from there have there? Actually, some competition guides maybe?
    Indirectly, so are the club guides taken from here in that some of the info in the original threads on this forum was copy and pasted from wikipedia.

    I don't write up the player profiles, nor do I have much knowledge of wikipedia's policy (although I will look into it now) so I can't really comment on this.

    What does it take to comply with wikipedia's policy, Dreaded Walrus? Is it just to say that the information was taken from wikipedia, or am I missing something. IIRC some of the profiles already have that, but I'm not certain.

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Totally agree Jammy and Alan.

    Dreaded Walrus - All of the player profiles that I have done (that's most of them) have been either copied or been modified from Wikipedia and whilst a good number have been creditted with recognision that this, that has not been the case with them all so I will make sure that these rules are followed. Thank you for highlighting the potential problem.

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Would this disclaimer be OK guys? Víctor Vázquez

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Quote Originally Posted by arsenal_2111 View Post
    I don't think there are any other articles that have been copied from there have there? Actually, some competition guides maybe?
    I did random page four times. Three of them were players, and the fourth one was Chile, which isn't from WP.

    A quick look at some competition articles (Premier League and Championship) and they aren't from WP.

    To be honest guy, on WP there's actually a procedure to follow for sites which use WP content without following the licensing guidelines, which is mentioned on this page. Usually what happens is a standard email is sent out to whoever owns the site, informing them about the violation (because most times people are using the content in good faith and just don't realise they aren't meeting the requirements for attribution), and there's a couple of follow up letters and stuff sent out weeks later. I've done a few of these myself. The actual time from first email sent to site getting taken down is an absolute minimum of six weeks, but usually people respond to the first email saying that they didn't realise, and either remove the content or (better) simply link back to Wikipedia and stuff. If you ever needed help with complying, you'd almost certainly be helped with creating an appropriate template or whatever (hell, I'd help you with that stuff if you wanted).

    So I wouldn't say there's anything to worry about, and certainly in the short term there's no rush, so there's no need to go blanking content from Wikipedia or anything like that. Just have a discussion to see what you all want to do.

    I do agree with you that the best use for an FMWiki would be for focussing on in-game stuff. I see that there's been some screenshots uploaded lately, and the Federico Fazio page had in-game information added by SCIAG, and that's really what people would be going to an FMWiki for in my opinion. Obviously, this has probably already been said, but after a good few months away from this place I hadn't looked through the whole thread.

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Would you mind making a template for me Walrus? Thought I would've remembered, but in truth I don't have a clue.

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Sure! I've created an FMWiki account now, but I'll provide it here so you guys can all have a talk about it. I'll need to do some test edits to see what works too, but when I've got something written out I'll post it here.

    Might take me a while though (on the phone right now)

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Thanks for that. I take it I can use the template on other pages now, yes?

    Also, are there any templates or anything similar that you'd recommend us using? Not for licensing agreements, but just to improve the layout of the site.

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Alright guys. As a test, I created this. This contains all the stuff that would be needed. A link to the WP article, an acknowledgement of the authors, and a mention that the FMWiki article is also licensed under the same terms. Of course, if you were to go down this road, then you would need to actually want to license your articles under the same terms as WP. In addition, the link to the GFDL in that version links to an externally-hosted copy, whereas your version would need to be hosted on the same server.

    I added a variable which allows it to be used both on articles which have the same name on FMWiki and WP (such as Anthony Pilkington (WP), and those which have a different title, such as Brad Jones (WP).

    An example of the template as it would appear on both articles would be here for Anthony Pilkington, and here for Brad Jones.

    Currently, for testing purposes, the template is located at Userreaded Walrus/sandbox, but if you decided to go down this route you would probably move the template to, for example, Template:fromwp, then for any article which has the exact same pagename on WP (such as the Anthony Pilkington article from above, all you would need to enter is:

    {{fromwp}} (you could even put it at template:fwp or something, to make it even shorter at {{fwp}})

    If you use it on an article which has a different pagename on WP (such as Brad Jones, which is "Brad Jones (footballer)" on WP), then all you would need to type is:

    {{fromwp|ARTICLE NAME HERE}}

    or, for Brad Jones:

    {{fromwp|Brad Jones (footballer)}}.

    As I have already said, you would need to talk amongst yourselves to work out what you want to do, whether you want to have WP content, which would require licensing your own content under the same terms, or whether you want only 100% original content.

    Also, the version I have created is by no means final so feel free to make edits to it to make it look prettier or whatever you guys want.

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Quote Originally Posted by ahmufcwafc View Post
    Thanks for that. I take it I can use the template on other pages now, yes?
    Well, you can do, but it's probably best for you and the other owners of the site (if there are any others) to discuss it first to see if you want to go down this route. In addition, you won't want to transclude the entire template with all the code (as you have been doing here for example), as this would require major work whenever anyone made any changes to the template itself. Also, it would not work on pages which are at different titles on Wikipedia (such as Brad Jones). The best way to include the template is mentioned in the post above, and you would need to move it from my sandbox to whichever page you wanted it at (such as Template:fromwp, or Template:fwp).

    And the main thing that would need to be done to comply with the GFDL which I cannot do for myself is you would need to host a copy of the GFDL which is currently linked on the template on your own server, and then we can modify the template to link direct to that.

    Edit: Oh, and you would also need to be willing to license FMWiki under the same terms as Wikipedia (as in anyone can reuse or modify FMWiki content for any reason (including commercial), so long as they provide attribution). That's the other thing you would need to do, which might not be appealing.
    Last edited by Dreaded Walrus; 10-06-2009 at 01:24. Reason: fix words (I said "page above" when I meant "post above")

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Advantages:
    - We only have about 5 of us working on the wiki regularly, and doing this helps us get more content on the site.
    - Plenty of information available to users of the wiki.

    Disadvantages:
    - In doing this, we perhaps come across as a poor relative of wikipedia.
    - Some player profiles don't have any FM related info on the player.
    - By looking at the wiki statistics, the player profiles get the lowest amount of views - then again, that could be down to the quantity of profiles available from the site.

    At the moment it's my opinion that we need to change the way player profiles are done. Instead of taking all of the information from wikipedia, we should only be doing profiles on players that we have FM knowledge of - much like SCIAG suggested a few weeks back. Maybe instead of adding a heapload of profiles every day, FM related information could be added to current pages whenever possible? Just my opinion, feel free to disagree with me - I'm not going to be the one adding FM related content to player profiles as that really isn't my strong area.

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Dreaded Walrus, thanks for the work you have done here, much appriciated.

    I think I've already put my opinion across enough for player profiles,whilst I agree that having a lot of pages is nice I think we need information on them on FM in there.

    Personally I would have

    - Screenshot
    - Personal Life
    - Brief real life career (maybe screenshot of history?)
    - The player in FM.

    Obviously not all pages would have extensive information on each player, but it would be better this way. I'll make a new page for Tamas Priskin to give an example of what I think would be best.

    K, I've done the Priskin page, thats what I think pages should try and be like. Obviously for some lower league players there would be less information on FM, but personally I think quality and suitability over quantity (not quite as catchy ) as we should try and develop as many player profiles as we can rather than adding new ones for the time being.
    Last edited by arsenal_2111; 10-06-2009 at 17:15.

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Quote Originally Posted by arsenal_2111 View Post
    Dreaded Walrus, thanks for the work you have done here, much appriciated.

    I think I've already put my opinion across enough for player profiles,whilst I agree that having a lot of pages is nice I think we need information on them on FM in there.

    Personally I would have

    - Screenshot
    - Personal Life
    - Brief real life career (maybe screenshot of history?)
    - The player in FM.

    Obviously not all pages would have extensive information on each player, but it would be better this way. I'll make a new page for Tamas Priskin to give an example of what I think would be best.
    I agree with that. I also think we need notability guidelines much like they have on WP. I think it would be best to do these with regards to PA. Anybody with a PA above, say, 150, can have a page, including -8s and above. Furthermore, anybody with a noted outstanding feature, such as several high physical attributes, or starting in the first team squad of a team in a certain standard of league, or being Mascio, can have a page.

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    I wouldn't agree that there should be specifications of who warrants a page or not. That way you are making fmwiki elitest, only supplying the information for those who play in the higher leagues.

    Elitist is probably the wrong word, actually. But I'm sure you get what I mean.

    In my opinion anyone who is going to write up a full article about a player should be able to write about who they want, standard of player regardless.

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    I agree with the above

    1000 images left to upload - on a faster connection though so should be done within the hour

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    http://www.footballmanagerwiki.co.uk...Alexey_Smertin needs to be moved to "players". Smertin the politician is not included in FM, Smertin the player is (just not in 09)

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Thanks for the update JJay

    Quote Originally Posted by SCIAG View Post
    http://www.footballmanagerwiki.co.uk...Alexey_Smertin needs to be moved to "players". Smertin the politician is not included in FM, Smertin the player is (just not in 09)
    Done, cheers EDIT: Undone, he's retired

    Btw, I've updated the Priskin page

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    Default Re: Football Manager Wiki

    Liking the page on Priskin Jammy. That's the way forward I reckon. Nothing against the other suggestions on the player profiles but that looks the best that i've seen so far.

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