Wege Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 A lot has been written on this forum on how fast players are over-powered. This is the case in my experience as well. I think the key problem here is how fast players run with the ball at their feet. We all know that players are slower with the ball than without it and this has been implemented in the game accurately enough. But players with lower dribbling stats can still run with the ball at incredible pass once they are in behind i.e. when they don't have to go past the defender. In my opinion players with higher dribbling should be quicker running the ball than players with weaker dribbling even when they don't have to beat a defender (It doesn't seem to me that this is implemented in the game). The only exception to this should be players who have "knock ball past opponent" ppm (should probably be renamed to "knocks ball on when on the run" if this is to be implemented) ala Henry, Valencia and Bale. A lot of times in real life you see players like Darren Bent, Welbeck and even Balotelli at the euros, get the ball in behind the defense but get caught by slower defenders because they struggle to run comfortably with the ball. A recent example was Balotelli chance against England where his first touch was perfect but he struggled to run with the ball and was caught by John Terry!! Only exceptional players (dribblers) like Messi are rarely ever caught because their control of the ball while running is so good that their pace is only affected minimally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aderow Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Does agbonlahor still score 25+ a season like in FM10? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nocuous Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 OP is pretty much spot on. Speed still comfortably trumps technical ability for nearly every position on the pitch. There should be something similar for tackling too. Like the fast the player is running while making a tackle, the worse it should be. Too often you see fast defenders with supposedly poor tackling ability in FM just spring through attackers and easily take the ball. In reality, if you're having to run very fast to make a tackle, it's far more likely you'll mistime it as opposed to when you moving at a more natural speed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggusD Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 The problem with pace in FM is that it affects their work rate and movement more than Work Rate and Off the Ball, and pacey strikers are often better in the air than slow, big ones. It isn't such a problem that quick players run faster with the ball even though they aren't good at dribbling, since that skill is how high chance there is that he can go past an opponent. I think that slow, good dribblers should be more efficient, though - there are no feinting moves in FM! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falahk Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 mental attributes, stamina and technique is often more important then pace/acceleration for most roles anyway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio MVP Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Physical attributes are dominant in the match engine. In my opinion mental attributes are the ones which should be most important followed by physical attributes and then technical atrributes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazvanRat Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 the game needs to do more with the dribbling skill. First of all, players with good pace and bad dribbling should overrun the ball, tread on it, knock it straight into defenders a lot more often than they currently do. And more even than that, the game needs to simulate static dribbling: players dropping a shoulder to make room for a cross or shot etc. Currently dribbling and close control only happen when a player is running, so naturally only really pacy players do any dribbling. I hope the coming Match Engine revamp does more to show how useful non-sprinters can be (how many of the best players at this Euro are mainly known for their pace?). And the game should do more to simile defensive positioning aimed at stopping fast players from gutting into space. Cureently the game only simulates one defender at a time, so a fast player who gets past one defender usually has a clear run on goal. Better AI and simulation of multiple defensive intelligences should stop this problem. So yes, basically, wait for the next ME and we'll see whether they've done it. Computer games in which pace is necessary for effective play are basically admitting that their match engine isn't sophisticated enough. i remember on the old fifa games when Teddy Sheringham would have 9/10 pace in their database because it was the only way to get him to score goals... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motherlover Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 My issue with Pace is that it seems to function very similarly to the Anticipation attribute at times, wherein pacy players appear to react more quickly to situations, rather than merely being able to get from A - B faster. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falahk Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 In my opinion mental attributes are the ones which should be most important followed by physical attributes and then technical attributes. no offense, but it is already like that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nocuous Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 ^ I disagree. Otherwise then players would peak after they're 30, as that's when they decline physically, but improve mentally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSCCG Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 the game needs to do more with the dribbling skill. First of all, players with good pace and bad dribbling should overrun the ball, tread on it, knock it straight into defenders a lot more often than they currently do. And more even than that, the game needs to simulate static dribbling: players dropping a shoulder to make room for a cross or shot etc. Currently dribbling and close control only happen when a player is running, so naturally only really pacy players do any dribbling. I hope the coming Match Engine revamp does more to show how useful non-sprinters can be (how many of the best players at this Euro are mainly known for their pace?). And the game should do more to simile defensive positioning aimed at stopping fast players from gutting into space. Cureently the game only simulates one defender at a time, so a fast player who gets past one defender usually has a clear run on goal. Better AI and simulation of multiple defensive intelligences should stop this problem. So yes, basically, wait for the next ME and we'll see whether they've done it.Computer games in which pace is necessary for effective play are basically admitting that their match engine isn't sophisticated enough. i remember on the old fifa games when Teddy Sheringham would have 9/10 pace in their database because it was the only way to get him to score goals... I agree with this It's not that physical stats are overpowered, it's the technical stats that are underpowered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio MVP Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 no offense, but it is already like that No it's not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wege Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 I agree with thisIt's not that physical stats are overpowered, it's the technical stats that are underpowered. Yeah. Physical attributes should dominate at lower level. Top level football is different however. The Spain team has won the Euros confortable with almost no sprinters in their starting 11. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aderow Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 the game needs to do more with the dribbling skill. First of all, players with good pace and bad dribbling should overrun the ball, tread on it, knock it straight into defenders a lot more often than they currently do. And more even than that, the game needs to simulate static dribbling: players dropping a shoulder to make room for a cross or shot etc. Currently dribbling and close control only happen when a player is running, so naturally only really pacy players do any dribbling. I hope the coming Match Engine revamp does more to show how useful non-sprinters can be (how many of the best players at this Euro are mainly known for their pace?). And the game should do more to simile defensive positioning aimed at stopping fast players from gutting into space. Cureently the game only simulates one defender at a time, so a fast player who gets past one defender usually has a clear run on goal. Better AI and simulation of multiple defensive intelligences should stop this problem. So yes, basically, wait for the next ME and we'll see whether they've done it.Computer games in which pace is necessary for effective play are basically admitting that their match engine isn't sophisticated enough. i remember on the old fifa games when Teddy Sheringham would have 9/10 pace in their database because it was the only way to get him to score goals... I've said the same in the past. I've seen the likes of Olic and Agbonlahor dribble around like players they are messi when the only attribute they have speed. In reality players who have a lot of pace and are poor dribblers should not be able to do what Olic and Agbonlahor have been able to do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wege Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 I've said the same in the past. I've seen the likes of Olic and Agbonlahor dribble around like players they are messi when the only attribute they have speed. In reality players who have a lot of pace and are poor dribblers should not be able to do what Olic and Agbonlahor have been able to do. True. The match engine seems to fail to realise that everything in football is harder when running at full speed. Even heading. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraowww Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Yeah. Physical attributes should dominate at lower level. Top level football is different however. The Spain team has won the Euros confortable with almost no sprinters in their starting 11. They don't excel in real pace, but they have players with very high acceleration and agility. I think agility is much, much more important in football than pace. Being able to change direction of running makes you able to become available for a pass and to have more time once you receive the pass. But also in defending, agility allows you to be able to anticipate faster to movements of dribbling player, or to the off the ball movement of forwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rikulec Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 no offense, but it is already like that A few members of a Polish official FM site made an experiment. They created a league with three teams and gave all players CA 200. One of the team had near 20s in technical attributes and near 1s in mental and physical, the second had near 20s in mental attributes and near 1s in technical and physical and the third had near 20s in physical and near 1s in technical and mental. The teams played each other 10 times. "Physicals" won the league with 54 points, "Mentals" came second with 19 and "Technicals" came last with 12. It's obvious that physical attributes are way overpowered in the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggusD Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 A few members of a Polish official FM site made an experiment. They created a league with three teams and gave all players CA 200. One of the team had near 20s in technical attributes and near 1s in mental and physical, the second had near 20s in mental attributes and near 1s in technical and physical and the third had near 20s in physical and near 1s in technical and mental. The teams played each other 10 times. "Physicals" won the league with 54 points, "Mentals" came second with 19 and "Technicals" came last with 12. It's obvious that physical attributes are way overpowered in the game. That's because good technical attributes aren't necessary to perform difficult technical stuff in FM, but the physical attributes are much more "absolute". 8 in dribbling doesn't mean that he cannot go past a player, but 8 in pace does. 8 in Off the Ball doesn't mean that a player cannot find space for himself, but 8 in Strength means he can't hold on to a ball if his life depended on it in the Premier League (unless he is very fast). It is obvious that in order to balance the game better, non-physical attributes must be much more "absolute" - and this will mean that you cannot play advanced, Spain-like attacking football with a poor technical team. If you try that and one of your players have 11 in technique 11 in passing, the tactic will falter every time he has the ball and you will need to find a player with better technique. The same if you have a player with good techique but poor physique in a team otherwise geared towards physique and "simple" football. He won't do that stuff much better than a stronger, faster guy. Actually he would probably make things worse since the rest of the team couldn't rely on him to win the challenges and run like hell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govnar1 Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 That's because good technical attributes aren't necessary to perform difficult technical stuff in FM My awfully bad DC makes incredible 40-50 meter passes all the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggusD Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 My awfully bad DC makes incredible 40-50 meter passes all the time. Yes that was what I said. :confused: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govnar1 Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Yes that was what I said. :confused: It was meant to confirm what you said or you don't think that accurate 40-50 m passes are difficult technical stuff? I know some are advocating this stance here. I in my personal opinion long passes are along with siding tackles from behind hardest thing to perform in football, yet my DC does both on regular basis. Who needs Pirlo and Nesta these days? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobble2002 Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 It becomes obvious when you have two strikers and the only real difference in them is their pace My striker with a pace of 16 scores 40 to 50 goals a season whilst the other with only 10 pace, who actually has better finishing heading jumping composure and off the ball struggles to get anywhere near 20 in a season Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott MUFC Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Pysical attributes are why the likes of Wilfried are such great signings. howeverr on my current united save, hernandez is being given a run for his money in the early stages of the league for top scorer..... by Berbatov. i think what stats you need depend on position, pase is one thing, ut i have found that technical players are better in midfield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraowww Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 A few members of a Polish official FM site made an experiment. They created a league with three teams and gave all players CA 200. One of the team had near 20s in technical attributes and near 1s in mental and physical, the second had near 20s in mental attributes and near 1s in technical and physical and the third had near 20s in physical and near 1s in technical and mental. The teams played each other 10 times. "Physicals" won the league with 54 points, "Mentals" came second with 19 and "Technicals" came last with 12. It's obvious that physical attributes are way overpowered in the game. Interesting. Did they also made combinations, with technicals+mentals high and physical low? Maybe physical attributes have more value on their own, but technical and mental attributes work in combination. If you have passing 20, but decisions and creativity 1, then you won't see good opportunities and make bad decisions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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