Do I have a problem with my style of management?

Managing Chelsea.

Lost 1-0 to Kiev at the Bridge against Kiev.

My striker Pandev blasted all his shots on the bar, after the game I asked if he would kindly place his shots for me, it would be much appreciated.

He says Yes, I will, thank you sir.

Deco could not complete a pass either could Ballack playing in the AMC role, I asked them both to play short simple passes, kind of like how I instructed them.

They say no, too old bla bla bla.

ok.

"Ballack and Deco have been placed on the transfer list and no longer needed"

I don't care who you are, I am the manager. If you don't listen to my instructions, GTFO!

Deco was given a mutal termination and ballack is being offered for around 15 million pounds, many interests.

So is this style ok or do I need to put up with players that will not listen to simple instructions?

Please give me feedback on the affects this will have in the long run for my game.

thanks and I'm sure this is the right place to post this.

is this your first season?

You're going to out a lot of players if you do this to every one that refuses to learn a PPM for you. Good style if you like threadbare squads.

I just noticed now looking at pandevs training it says "places shots" at 20%!!! this is mad so because I asked him in interaction he is now training that way!!! Jeez this game is insanely good from previous versions, I love it

Hi Skorp thank you for the feedback. I had to look up threadbare in the dictionary, it seems its very bad/poor. So are you saying my style of management is going to be bad? Maybe it will be bad at the start but if a player listens to me, eventually I will get good personality players in my squad, I'd rather have a team of teamplayers than solo rambo's.

I will be patient with the younger ones and eventually have a team over 25 year olds that will play how I like.

What I mean is that if you get rid of all the players that don't want to learn everything you ask of them you will be getting rid of a lot of players and have a very small squad

graeme355, yes its my first game in fm09, just getting a feel for all the new cool stuff. Will pick a lower team for my next 'real' game

What I mean is that if you get rid of all the players that don't want to learn everything you ask of them you will be getting rid of a lot of players and have a very small squad

Ok I see your logic, but raise you mine.

Question.

If your boss comes into your office (if you have one ) and says "Hey guy, we are going in a new direction, you will need to do something this particular way" and then you reply, "Uhm...no.. I have done it this way for too long now plus I'm too old to change", what will your boss say and do?

and also Skorp, if you are telling me alot of players are spoilt overpaid brats I will agree, maybe you can push me in the direction of the hard working players that will listen to simple and not over complicated instructions? Or should I ask that in another forum?

thanks for your time

Lucky for them, all my players have agreed to my requests that they learn PPMs so far. I wouldn't stand for any insubordination.

Some players will respond to your requests, yes, but a lot of requests for PPMs won't suit the particular player. For example, IRL Adebayor gets caught offside a lot, trying to play off the shoulder of the last defender. If you asked him to stop getting caught offside so much he is likely to not agree with you, since playing off the last defender is a large part of his game and where he creates a lot of his chances. By asking him to stop doing this, you are asking him to stop playing football the way he knows how and are likely to stop him from getting good goal chances.

Football management isn't like an office: you can only guide footballers or suggest to them what you'd like them to be doing on the pitch. At the end of the day they're the players and they make the on-pitch decisions, so telling a player to stop doing something that they see as a benefit when making a decision in-match is not always a good idea.

What I mean is that if you get rid of all the players that don't want to learn everything you ask of them you will be getting rid of a lot of players and have a very small squad

Some players will respond to your requests, yes, but a lot of requests for PPMs won't suit the particular player. For example, IRL Adebayor gets caught offside a lot, trying to play off the shoulder of the last defender. If you asked him to stop getting caught offside so much he is likely to not agree with you, since playing off the last defender is a large part of his game and where he creates a lot of his chances. By asking him to stop doing this, you are asking him to stop playing football the way he knows how and are likely to stop him from getting good goal chances.

Football management isn't like an office: you can only guide footballers or suggest to them what you'd like them to be doing on the pitch. At the end of the day they're the players and they make the on-pitch decisions, so telling a player to stop doing something that they see as a benefit when making a decision in-match is not always a good idea.

Very hard to argue with this, I guess I will have to re think what I ask of some players.

I couldn't imagine Alex Ferguson or Jose Mourinho tolerating that kind of dissent. If Ferguson told Nani to play a simple passing game and Nani refused, he'd be out of the door.

maybe i have this wrong? but i thought a player would only learn a ppm, if it was one of his hidden abilities?

I couldn't imagine Alex Ferguson or Jose Mourinho tolerating that kind of dissent. If Ferguson told Nani to play a simple passing game and Nani refused, he'd be out of the door.

Thats what I'm saying

I couldn't imagine Alex Ferguson or Jose Mourinho tolerating that kind of dissent. If Ferguson told Nani to play a simple passing game and Nani refused, he'd be out of the door.

Yes but you can tell Nani to play a simple passing game through his Player Instructions. Asking him to change his PPMs is asking him to change him as a player, not just the way he plays.

Ok I see your logic, but raise you mine.

Question.

If your boss comes into your office (if you have one ) and says "Hey guy, we are going in a new direction, you will need to do something this particular way" and then you reply, "Uhm...no.. I have done it this way for too long now plus I'm too old to change", what will your boss say and do?

Well if a new inexperienced boss came along and wanted me to change something fundamental to how I had success in the past I might decide a move on was in my best interests ....

You mean asking them to stop doing PPMs they already have is more likely to result in a refusal?

I'm still not sure a manager would tolerate that. Mourinho told Ashley Cole to stop attacking and he did. I don't imagine he'd have got much game time if he'd refused. Keegan made Owen play in a deeper role instead of hanging off the shoulder of the last defender despite the fact that Owen had previously said he would never play such a role.

Age plays a big role in this, but it seems some other mental stats do. Most of my players started to outright refuse at around 24/25 and some of the others refused all the way along, not much you can do about it ultimately though, my team still plays well enough so I leave it at that, it should be more enforced in some cases like "well if you want to play again you will stop/attempt it"

You mean asking them to stop doing PPMs they already have is more likely to result in a refusal?

I'm still not sure a manager would tolerate that. Mourinho told Ashley Cole to stop attacking and he did. I don't imagine he'd have got much game time if he'd refused. Keegan made Owen play in a deeper role instead of hanging off the shoulder of the last defender despite the fact that Owen had previously said he would never play such a role.

He didn't ask Ashley to remove all the aspects of his game that make him a good attacking fullback, he asked him to stay flatter and not overlap, which is something that is done in player instructions.

After all, since Ashley's back being an attacking DL under Scolari, it's not like Mourinho removed those elements of his game, which is what these PPMs are.

Okay. Consider the Adebayor example instead.

If Wenger thought Adebayor's game would be improved by telling him to stop getting caught offside and Adebayor refused, Wenger would drop him or sell him. I can't see many managers tolerating having their judgement questioned no matter how strongly the player feels about it.

I'm not saying Adebayor wouldn't refuse. Just that few managers would tolerate it.

Okay. Consider the Adebayor example instead.

If Wenger thought Adebayor's game would be improved by telling him to stop getting caught offside and Adebayor refused, Wenger would drop him or sell him. I can't see many managers tolerating having their judgement questioned no matter how strongly the player feels about it.

I'm not saying Adebayor wouldn't refuse. Just that few managers would tolerate it.

I think you're missing the point. Player instructions are the way of telling these players what you want them to do. Asking a player to fundamentally change the way he thinks about and plays football is different from tactical preferences in-match.

I get what you're saying about the difference between tactics and PPMs, but I think if a real life manager did the equivalent of asking a player to learn a PPM he would brook no dissent.

Im ashamed to say it, but Im actually agreeing with Skorp on this one:(

Im probably one of the worst footie players around, but there is one thing Im good at: Creating room for other players, by roaming around the pitch - mainly down to relatively good anticipation(or football mind), after being player/coach/ref for 18 years.

One of the managers I had once got a bit annoyed with me, because I drifted away from defenders all the time - to create space for others. He told me that he wanted me to not do that anymore -"Stay on the defender" he told me more than once (FM terms: "dont move into channels") - I refused, telling him that it is the only way I know to play.

Even though he didnt like it, he didnt drop me from the team. Instead he tried to adjust my style of play by telling me how to utilize my only skill.

I was still in the team the next season:D

I think I understand the gripe here and skorp's defence. The fact is that you can't have a conversation with a player and explain things within the GE....you have to instead hope that the inpretation of your "one liners" does the tricks (especially important in media interaction pieces).

I get the feeling that if I have a roving winger, who loves to run at defenders and take them on ALL the time (as a PPM on the game) yet I ask him to do something different within the tactics, I'll under-utilise the player and he will not (statistically) be able to reach his full potential. This to me is quite wrong. 2 such real world examples off the top of my head, Gerrard and Reo-Coker. Gerrard never has been a striker, and never will be (taken from his own comments) but Rafa has, occasionally, played him right up alongside Torres this season as an out and out striker...other times he's been dropped behind Torres, and also been played out wide. Most of these times he still played well, did a job for the team, and came out of the game with glowing praise from the media.

Reo-Coker is, and always will be a defensive minded midfielder, with the perchant for a forward run every now and then. He is not a right back....however, as a Villa fan, I've been over the moon with how he has performed against some of the league's best Wingers (most notably Ronaldo...shackled isn't the word!). Whilst he's a) not happy and b) not willing to play there forever, he has the attributes that the manager sees as being critical to a player who plays in that position.

The point to all this is as follows: If I want a player to play out of position based on their attributes (e.g. Drogba at the back ) the engine should be able to calculate the efficiency of that player in that position based on stats of a) that player and b) the direct opposition. Preferred moves are something, in my head, that are very gray. "Moves into channels" could be a "preferred move" but it could also be something that you want a player to do tactically.

I'm not sure how it could be engineered....but something to blur the line between the two would be nice. Ronaldo was told to stop being a showboating pony when he first came to United. Fergie asked him to do it in the right place at the right time. He does occasionally still try the odd trick or two, but worlds away from the every other second he once did. Is this a player preferred move anymore due to the limitation of the manager or is this a tactically initiated move? Within FM, you just couldn't distinguish.

graeme355, yes its my first game in fm09, just getting a feel for all the new cool stuff. Will pick a lower team for my next 'real' game

It wasn’t a dig mate I was just thinking, and maybe I am wrong, that if a new manager who has never won anything and has no football pedigree tried to tell someone like Ballack that he was playing all wrong that he might just not be that interested in listening.

But if that person had won the CL twice the EPL a handful of times and had developed a good number of WC players they may be more attuned to pay some attention

???

auto rep when I started so it doesnt matter.

I found alot of the older ones will not change anything

i say your the manager, tell them it's your way or the high way. hey no!!?

I think you're missing the point. Player instructions are the way of telling these players what you want them to do. Asking a player to fundamentally change the way he thinks about and plays football is different from tactical preferences in-match.

Which means it's possible for them to fail, but they shouldn't flat out refuse.

If your manager tells you to fundementally change the way you approach your work in an office you can't just say "No, I don't think it would benefit me".

Which means it's possible for them to fail, but they shouldn't flat out refuse.

If your manager tells you to fundementally change the way you approach your work in an office you can't just say "No, I don't think it would benefit me".

Yes, but as has been said in this thread previously, managing football is nothing like managing office workers.

Yes, but as has been said in this thread previously, managing football is nothing like managing office workers.

I disagree when it comes to asking people to change their mentality towards their job.

The problem is most likely the wording, how many professionals can flat out turn round to their manager when asked to do something and say "No, I don't think that would benefit me". You're an employee, it's not your call to make.

I disagree when it comes to asking people to change their mentality towards their job.

The problem is most likely the wording, how many professionals can flat out turn round to their manager when asked to do something and say "No, I don't think that would benefit me". You're an employee, it's not your call to make.

It is their call to make. These players also play international football, and will likely move to other clubs in their career. If you force them to unlearn that PPM, they will effectively take it out of their game totally, meaning they'll never be able to do it again. They're not going to change their very personality for a manager but they will do their best to accomodate the manager's wishes on the pitch (via tactical/player instructions). Obviously you will get some players that are willing to bend, but others won't be: and this is realistic.

I understand what you're saying but I couldn't disagree more.

I genuinely don't believe any employee in the world says "No, I don't think so" to their boss, especially without expecting any reprecussion.

I understand what you're saying but I couldn't disagree more.

I genuinely don't believe any employee in the world says "No, I don't think so" to their boss, especially without expecting any reprecussion.

I think PPM's have to be treated with caution. The wording used for refusal is the problem and I can see how it would annoy people who are playing a management game, giving an instruction and getting it thrown back in their face.

However I also understand Skorps explanation and can see that certain instances with players that we may think a PPM would fix could really be resolved tactically.

But there is a grey area and maybe this needs looking at.

I am right handed and if my Boss came into my office and said "from now on I want you to write with your left" I probably would tell him where to go as what he was asking would be unatural.

I can however understand where the confusion lies and telling a 19 year old striker to slot his shots into the corner of the net instead of blasting them into the next town shouldn't really be met with a flat refusal.

It is their call to make. These players also play international football, and will likely move to other clubs in their career. If you force them to unlearn that PPM, they will effectively take it out of their game totally, meaning they'll never be able to do it again. They're not going to change their very personality for a manager but they will do their best to accomodate the manager's wishes on the pitch (via tactical/player instructions). Obviously you will get some players that are willing to bend, but others won't be: and this is realistic.

If I knew for sure what most of the PPMs actually did, then I'd buy into this Problem is that at the moment, I've no idea what the negative or positives really are for most PPMs and all the information I've got is from fan websites which may or may not be accurate. Which makes judging whether or not to ask them to learn or to refrain akin to bobbing for apples in the knife drawer

I think we need some way to make it clear to players that if they refuse to change their game, they won't be in the team. Perhaps there could be a drop down menu of responses on the e-mail when they refuse to lean a PPM. Then if they still refuse we could have another drop down menu with options such as "drop to reserve squad," "place on the transfer list" and so on.

I finally had a player refuse to lean a PPM this season, but I discovered that if you just keep nagging them they eventually give in.

Ultimatums!

I understand what you're saying but I couldn't disagree more.

I genuinely don't believe any employee in the world says "No, I don't think so" to their boss, especially without expecting any reprecussion.

Really? Just because someone's my boss does not mean I would blindly follow every instruction they gave me, especially if I think it may be detrimental to my career.

I think for footballers this is even less likely.

surely all strikers would agree to placing their shots more though?

Why? If you're a footballer and confident in your abilities why would you blindly accept it if someone tells you that you should actually be doing something different? Especially if it's something as fundimental to a striker as the way they put the ball in the net.

As a young player you may be willing to take this on board, but as an older player you certainly would not. Can you imagine Shearer being told by Keegan to not blast the ball as much?

Why? If you're a footballer and confident in your abilities why would you blindly accept it if someone tells you that you should actually be doing something different? Especially if it's something as fundimental to a striker as the way they put the ball in the net.

As a young player you may be willing to take this on board, but as an older player you certainly would not. Can you imagine Shearer being told by Keegan to not blast the ball as much?

I don't think its unreasonable.

A striker that hasn't scored for 10 games and constantly hoofs the ball over the bar when he's in a one on one.

Is it really wrong to ask him to try and round the keeper?

I have this exact issue at the moment.

He is in his prime, was top scorer the previous season is happy with his training schedule and I have tried resting him, releasing comments to the media and saying stuff like "I have faith" or "no pressure" in team talks.

Tactically nothing has changed but things clearly aren't working so surely its totally plausible that IRL a manager would ask him to try something new and equally plausible that the response would be at least "I will give it a try" and not a straight no.

dude also think of the players ur asking to change... ballack a champions league finalist and winner.. a world cup finalist and one of the best midfielders in the world... deco a european cup finaist and one of portugals greatest players. these players have won it all and dont need a new manager telling them how 2 improve their game... theyve survived this long with thier current skills.. ur easier best is to ask ur youngsters 2 change.

dude also think of the players ur asking to change... ballack a champions league finalist and winner.. a world cup finalist and one of the best midfielders in the world... deco a european cup finaist and one of portugals greatest players. these players have won it all and dont need a new manager telling them how 2 improve their game... theyve survived this long with thier current skills.. ur easier best is to ask ur youngsters 2 change.

My striker has a local rep and plays in the BSP

Which is total rubbish, as I've asked 35 year old Jamie Carragher to play a simple passing game, and a 36 year old Didi Hamann to run down the right wing!

The arguments against players being willing to change the natural way they are points to nobody being able to change, if you have a PPM then you're stuck with it.

With the implementation of being able to teach PPMs it should be available to all players. It's far too random who will accept and who won't and it doesn't make logical sense.

Which means it's possible for them to fail, but they shouldn't flat out refuse.

If your manager tells you to fundementally change the way you approach your work in an office you can't just say "No, I don't think it would benefit me".

It depends how well paid you are and how confident you are in your ability to find another job as well as your opinion of your Manager. I don't think you can say no office worker would ever refuse.

Which means it's possible for them to fail, but they shouldn't flat out refuse.

If your manager tells you to fundementally change the way you approach your work in an office you can't just say "No, I don't think it would benefit me".

surely all strikers would agree to placing their shots more though?

Not at all - if someone has made a career out of blasting the ball into the back of the net why would they want to change?

It depends how well paid you are and how confident you are in your ability to find another job as well as your opinion of your Manager. I don't think you can say no office worker would ever refuse.

Nobody would say No and not expect a consequence. That's what I'm saying, just turning round and saying "no, I don't think so" without any reprecusion is pretty unrealistic.

Not at all - if someone has made a career out of blasting the ball into the back of the net why would they want to change?

Again, if there was a logical reason behind the decision then fine. But we're talking about brand new 16 year old kids out of the academy flatly refusing to listen to Alex Ferguson telling them to place their shots more carefully.

Managing Chelsea.

Lost 1-0 to Kiev at the Bridge against Kiev.

My striker Pandev blasted all his shots on the bar, after the game I asked if he would kindly place his shots for me, it would be much appreciated.

He says Yes, I will, thank you sir.

Deco could not complete a pass either could Ballack playing in the AMC role, I asked them both to play short simple passes, kind of like how I instructed them.

They say no, too old bla bla bla.

ok.

"Ballack and Deco have been placed on the transfer list and no longer needed"

I don't care who you are, I am the manager. If you don't listen to my instructions, GTFO!

Deco was given a mutal termination and ballack is being offered for around 15 million pounds, many interests.

So is this style ok or do I need to put up with players that will not listen to simple instructions?

Please give me feedback on the affects this will have in the long run for my game.

thanks and I'm sure this is the right place to post this.

Hi Ricardo

I have recently asked Phillipe Mexes to stop arguing with officials because he was getting sent off alot. he said no but i kept in anyway and now he is doing very well when he isnt suspended! i have found that some players take on what you say on the stubborn ones jsut ignore you. I would hazard a quess that the players with the highest reputation are more likely to say no.

I think we need some way to make it clear to players that if they refuse to change their game, they won't be in the team. Perhaps there could be a drop down menu of responses on the e-mail when they refuse to lean a PPM. Then if they still refuse we could have another drop down menu with options such as "drop to reserve squad," "place on the transfer list" and so on.

I finally had a player refuse to lean a PPM this season, but I discovered that if you just keep nagging them they eventually give in.

i'd say that was a bit petty just for PPMs which i'd say hardly have a huge impact on the game, maybe you should consider your player instructions mate. As for them actually learning them, i'm assuming you must have picked international player as your rep to feel that every player should bow to your demands and change their whole game

I picked "automatic" as my reputation, but I don't tolerate insubordination. Or at least I wouldn't if the game actually gave me the option of not tolerating it.

Whether PPMs have a massive effect or not is kind of beside the point. I'm the manager - if I tell a player to do something and he says "no, I don't want to" I should be able to discipline him.

I only ask a player to learn a PPM if I want him to do something that can't be achieved with player instructions. For example, I told my centre backs to play short passes and reduced their creative freedom to nothing yet they still repeatedly ignored the full backs who were in acres of space and chose to attempt 60-yard through balls at every opportunity. I managed to largely solve that problem by making them learn the "play a simple passing game" PPM. Similarly, my full backs refused to run forward with the ball despite having plenty of space to do so and no one closing them down. Despite having forward runs and run with ball set to "often" and passing set to short they chose instead to hit ridiculous cross-field balls straight to the opposition defenders. I solved this problem with PPMs too.