Are games fiddled?

I've just started playing in 3D.

Rangers are 3-0 up after 0-0 in the away leg. Juventus pass the ball into the box just before HT, my RB picks the ball up under no pressure and passes it into the central opposition striker. 3-1.

They manage to get another from distance just after the break so I start getting worried. However in a breakaway Juventus' last defender hacks down Bojan on the edge of the box. Free kick but not even a yellow card never mind a red. I'm going crazy, has the ref been paid off? I know all about those dodgy Italian teams. 3-2.

They're gunning for me now. Radoi loses possession in his own half. Juventus grab an equaliser. Another defender substitued for being cr*p. 3-3, sh** I need a goal.

It's injury time, a perfect cross into the box, my striker is at the near post, their goalkeeper is still in the middle of his goal...f*** it he's missed. Can't even hit the target the useless world class numpty. Within seconds my goalies joining the attack and Juventus have gained possession, the Juventus player shoots from the halfway line...what the h*ll there's no one in my half. My hairs getting pulled out. I'm the better team, I've been fiddled. I want an enquiry.

4-3 to Juventus.

This game can be infuriating but I love it. Ah well, maybe next season for Europe.

look at it this way, I'm playing with Farsley right, we into the FA Cup 5th round vs Everton, who is 3 divisions above us, we losing 2-0 at half time. I roast the lads, send them out and we score 3 goals in the last 15minutes to knock a prem league team out the FA Cup.

Never underestimate complacency in a team and a motivating team talk by the opposition. Take heart though man, you pushed Juventuss right to the brink and thats damn well done!

It's not at all unusual for this to happen and there are many threads about it. Basically it is because the game decides to cripple your players ability to perform if they go 3-0 up in the 1st half. It's just a big dirty hack to try to stop you scoring too many goals. Unfortunately it leads to the situation where your players can't pass, tackle or score and generally stand around like statues for 45 minutes as the opposition takes complete control. I'm sure someone will come along in a minute and explain how it never happens to him because of his tactical genius.

It happens to everyone, and sometimes you are finish as the winning team (StevenMcD), sometimes you finish as the losing team (Coop). It can happen in real life too... Wolves v Leicester at Molineux in 2003: Wolves were losing 3-0 at half time, but won the game 4-3. For those of you that won't know this (I am a Wolves fan of course) Liverpool v Milan Champions League Final???

It's not at all unusual for this to happen and there are many threads about it. Basically it is because the game decides to cripple your players ability to perform if they go 3-0 up in the 1st half. It's just a big dirty hack to try to stop you scoring too many goals. Unfortunately it leads to the situation where your players can't pass, tackle or score and generally stand around like statues for 45 minutes as the opposition takes complete control. I'm sure someone will come along in a minute and explain how it never happens to him because of his tactical genius.

Yes... im sure SI programmed the AI to "cheat" against you so that you didnt win anything...

Because that would make perfect sense...

Annoy your customer so much he never wants to play another one of your games again.

Great business plan.

I've read many a time that the game's AI compensates by shifting odds against you if you're over achieving. Surely that's cheating, it's not like it's anyones fault that you might happen to know how to get good results.

I'm sure every team in the premiership is saying "Hull are 10th! they're not allowed to do this. QUICK!! we must terrorise them with a 3 month string of losses that go against all match stats. we'll do it using a cunning mixture of own goals, suicidal back passes, wonder strikes, and super keepers!"

I've read many a time that the game's AI compensates by shifting odds against you if you're over achieving. Surely that's cheating

What do you mean? The match odds before a game? If so, of course the odds will change depending on how successful/unsuccessful you are

Nope, not the prematch odds. I've read in other forums that the game actually tips the balance against teams that are achieving too far above their pre-season predictions in order to retain a modicum of stability. Apparently it stops ridiculous randomisation of promotions and relegations that would occur if the entire thing was left to its own devises.

Yes I have seen instance when my players miss open goals during the match, and it often feels as though I am destined to lose the game, no matter how well we play and no matter how easy my goal attempts are.

But I feel that is just to even the balance in a way, kinda like karma lol. If I reload after a defeat, then win the reloaded game, I will struggle in the following games. Therefore, I accept the draw/defeat and seem to perform much better in the following games, so it all evens itself out

Here's how matches work (as laid out many times by SI and other clever people):

*

Two teams line up.

The ME (match engine) looks at both sets of players, their attributes, morale, determination, state of mind, and the tactics of both teams.

The ME then calculates what will occur during the game, eg how defender X will fare against striker Y when it comes to a header in the 64th minute, if winger X will skin full-back Y in the 2nd minute, whether striker X will score past keeper Y when one-v-one in the 91st minute, etc, and decides what the result will be, and how it will be played based on those things.

The graphics you see, whether 2d, 3d, or commentary are pre-determined at this point. This is the lag you get when "setting up match".

If neither side changes anything - subs, tactics, whatever - the game will play out exactly as determined.

HOWEVER:

When you make a change, say a substitution, or slowing the pace, or going to short passing, or telling one of your strikers to hold up the ball, or any minor thing, the result calculated at the beginning of the game changes, and what you see on the screen reflects this. Then you make another change and this too is recalculated.

It is the same for the AI team. If they make a change, the result gets recalculated, so if things start to change for you, then you need to make another change to force another recalculation of the result.

Here's the thing, though: THE M.E. DOESN'T KNOW WHETHER IT'S THE HUMAN USER OR THE AI MANAGER THAT IS MAKING THE CHANGES.

*

This is why the game cannot 'cheat' you. I found that on patch 9.1 the AI managers were a little too good tactically, that if they needed two goals then they'd find two goals. I can't disagree with that. But it COULD be challenged, and it COULD be gotten around, but not without some serious pausing of the game and pulling in two DMCs and playing on the counter... I won't go on. Then patch 9.2 came along and (for me) the AI managers' comebackability was lessened and I had a great 4-5-1 that all but killed the game in the final ten mins. The comebacks still happened, but I was as much a beneficiary as a victim.

Long story short, in no way does the game "cheat". Players don't slow down, or get turned into Sunday pub footballers - it simply can't because of how it's programmed. Constant, unrealistic comebacks (as per 9.1 patch) are down to unrealistic ability of AI managers to inspire and motivate their team. It's not a conspiracy.

Nope, not the prematch odds. I've read in other forums that the game actually tips the balance against teams that are achieving too far above their pre-season predictions in order to retain a modicum of stability. Apparently it stops ridiculous randomisation of promotions and relegations that would occur if the entire thing was left to its own devises.

What 'other forums' is this on? I find it very difficult to believe... it's just rare for an overacheiving team to keep overacheiving, that's why they call it overacheiving... if a team aren't that good you don't have to change anything in the game to stop them, it'll happen of its own accord after a while of the normal game calculations. There's a lot of people here who have taken very low teams to very high places completely against expectations, with no problems...

the odd game does balance it out yes, but there are times when it'll throw a good 2 months of defeats that go against the run of play yet i've never seen the engine hand a human player that sort of luxury.

the odd game does balance it out yes, but there are times when it'll throw a good 2 months of defeats that go against the run of play yet i've never seen the engine hand a human player that sort of luxury.

Roll a dice 12 times. I guaruntee you you won't get 2 of each number, random chance may seem biased but it's still random, well not even completely in this case. How about Hull IRL? or Portsmouth, their first season in the premiership? I've certainly had a lot of matches that I've won on defence with a scrappy winner, if you have the team that can do it, it happens...

i guess you're right, it is after all a game so good teams will be good and bad teams will be bad. unlike in the real world where results go by a team's performances for a larger majority of the time.

Nope, not the prematch odds. I've read in other forums that the game actually tips the balance against teams that are achieving too far above their pre-season predictions in order to retain a modicum of stability. Apparently it stops ridiculous randomisation of promotions and relegations that would occur if the entire thing was left to its own devises.

Not to sure about this, I am no tactical/computer genius and my team has been tipped for relegation for both my 2 seasons playing. 1st season promoted, 2nd season lost in playoffs cause i put out crap team cos i didn't want promotion yet. ( BSS & BSP).

But I do agree that this game is Frustrating/annoying with how it represents a game on screen and that the tactics aren't intuitiative , team talks are inadequate/waste of time etc

in future i shall ignore such suggestions then

Long story short, in no way does the game "cheat". Players don't slow down, or get turned into Sunday pub footballers - it simply can't because of how it's programmed. Constant, unrealistic comebacks (as per 9.1 patch) are down to unrealistic ability of AI managers to inspire and motivate their team. It's not a conspiracy.

In fact, one's own players DO seem to become incapable of stringing two passes together in these scenarios - this has been remarked upon in a number of posts.

The half time team talks, of course, are ludicrously over weighted in importance, as are press conferences. A thoroughly bad 'improvement' in FM '09 which needs drastically revising or totally removing.

Here's how matches work (as laid out many times by SI and other clever people):

*

Two teams line up.

The ME (match engine) looks at both sets of players, their attributes, morale, determination, state of mind, and the tactics of both teams.

The ME then calculates what will occur during the game, eg how defender X will fare against striker Y when it comes to a header in the 64th minute, if winger X will skin full-back Y in the 2nd minute, whether striker X will score past keeper Y when one-v-one in the 91st minute, etc, and decides what the result will be, and how it will be played based on those things.

The graphics you see, whether 2d, 3d, or commentary are pre-determined at this point. This is the lag you get when "setting up match".

If neither side changes anything - subs, tactics, whatever - the game will play out exactly as determined.

HOWEVER:

When you make a change, say a substitution, or slowing the pace, or going to short passing, or telling one of your strikers to hold up the ball, or any minor thing, the result calculated at the beginning of the game changes, and what you see on the screen reflects this. Then you make another change and this too is recalculated.

It is the same for the AI team. If they make a change, the result gets recalculated, so if things start to change for you, then you need to make another change to force another recalculation of the result.

Here's the thing, though: THE M.E. DOESN'T KNOW WHETHER IT'S THE HUMAN USER OR THE AI MANAGER THAT IS MAKING THE CHANGES.

*

This is why the game cannot 'cheat' you. I found that on patch 9.1 the AI managers were a little too good tactically, that if they needed two goals then they'd find two goals. I can't disagree with that. But it COULD be challenged, and it COULD be gotten around, but not without some serious pausing of the game and pulling in two DMCs and playing on the counter... I won't go on. Then patch 9.2 came along and (for me) the AI managers' comebackability was lessened and I had a great 4-5-1 that all but killed the game in the final ten mins. The comebacks still happened, but I was as much a beneficiary as a victim.

Long story short, in no way does the game "cheat". Players don't slow down, or get turned into Sunday pub footballers - it simply can't because of how it's programmed. Constant, unrealistic comebacks (as per 9.1 patch) are down to unrealistic ability of AI managers to inspire and motivate their team. It's not a conspiracy.

Just one interesting point with regards to your post: When the human player makes a tactical change there is a pause in the game as the computer replays the rest of the game with your new tactics. If and when the AI makes a tactical change there is no similar pause in the game. Therefore it can't be exactly the same and the computer must know the difference.

Just one interesting point with regards to your post: When the human player makes a tactical change there is a pause in the game as the computer replays the rest of the game with your new tactics. If and when the AI makes a tactical change there is no similar pause in the game. Therefore it can't be exactly the same and the computer must know the difference.

Follows logic... the AI is the computer, when it processes the game I'd imagine it then calculates and takes into account any AI changes and their effects - it makes sense cos otherwise you could have limitless pauses in the game as the AI tweaks tactics...

Just one interesting point with regards to your post: When the human player makes a tactical change there is a pause in the game as the computer replays the rest of the game with your new tactics. If and when the AI makes a tactical change there is no similar pause in the game. Therefore it can't be exactly the same and the computer must know the difference.

The AI changes are calculated during the long pause brought about by the changes made by yourself.

So for example, you're 1-0 and you make a tactical change, perhaps playing a little more defensive. When you submit those changes the game looks at everything and calculates the rest of the game, including the AI's response to the changes made by you, and any other AI changes that will occur in the rest of the half. So, if the game looks at averything and from that calculates that you will go 2-0 up, it will also calculate the AI's response to that goal. This changes every time you make a change.

Yes... im sure SI programmed the AI to "cheat" against you so that you didnt win anything...

Because that would make perfect sense...

Annoy your customer so much he never wants to play another one of your games again.

Great business plan.

Are you saying you've never noticed that if you get your team to jump out to a 3 or 4 goal lead in the first half, the second half is filled with roughly no highlights? Your team literally does nothing. No shots, no CCCs, no goals. I've had many games when I had a 60+% possession, 10+ shots, multiple CCCs and up 3 or more goals in first half. If I wrote down all the offensive stats at half time then compared them against the final stats, they would be pretty much unchanged. It makes sense that many people, myself included, feel like the AI holds you back when you have a very strong first half when you look at numbers like that. The other option is that I, and many others, simply get the half time talks wrong all the time. Possible, but all that means is that the half time talk has way too much of an impact.

It doesn't really have anything to do with winning. I manage to win some of these games, draw some, and get burnt on some by amazing comebacks. The results I'm not worried about. I just don't get why a team that is killing another team for 45 minutes suddenly can't string one pass together after half time. Sure it happens in real life, but on rare special occasions. Not with the consistency you see in this game.

Here's how matches work (as laid out many times by SI and other clever people):

*

This is why the game cannot 'cheat' you. I found that on patch 9.1 the AI managers were a little too good tactically, that if they needed two goals then they'd find two goals. I can't disagree with that. But it COULD be challenged, and it COULD be gotten around, but not without some serious pausing of the game and pulling in two DMCs and playing on the counter... I won't go on. Then patch 9.2 came along and (for me) the AI managers' comebackability was lessened and I had a great 4-5-1 that all but killed the game in the final ten mins. The comebacks still happened, but I was as much a beneficiary as a victim.

Long story short, in no way does the game "cheat". Players don't slow down, or get turned into Sunday pub footballers - it simply can't because of how it's programmed. Constant, unrealistic comebacks (as per 9.1 patch) are down to unrealistic ability of AI managers to inspire and motivate their team. It's not a conspiracy.

So it's not a cheat for the AI to constantly get his talks right and cause these sharp second half turn arounds? In reality they should be like our talks. Sometimes they should get their half time talks right, sometimes OK, sometimes wrong. I get dominated way too often in the second half of games, despite the first half saying that my tactics are better and a look at the players involved saying I've got the better talent.

Even if the AI manager does get his team talk right that should only affect the way in which his team is playing, not the human manager's. It may be OK for them to play a bit better (though the effects of these wretched half time talks are out of all realistic proportion IMO) but why should that make my players worse?? :confused:

The things which makes people feel that results are fiddled more than any other, I think, are the matches where you totally dominate the opposition from start to finish and only draw or lose to their one and only shot. I just played a game with 24 shots to 0 and drew 0-0. It's frustrating because your side is playing well and it happens much too often for it to be realistic. People say 'it happens in real matches' and yes, it does, but not with the frequency which is seen in FM anything like.

I am certain that this is a built in 'feature'. Too many people have remarked on it for this to be mere chance or coincidence.

The half time team talks are still way OP full stop, not just the AI. There's loads of times i've bollocked my team at half time to overturn results, just as it's been done to me.

Someone should finally take some solid statistics from real life and game to see just how many results actually see this kinda turn around so that it can be balanced. There's ALWAYS a mathematical mean for these kinda things.

On reflection, I think we should all stop using the words fake, cheat, fixed etc. At the end of the day the game is a piece of software, an imperfect one at that. It's a natural admission by the amount of updates that are released that SI know there will be mistakes and that there's room for improvement.

I think it'd be a good idea for people to play a season and actually bring forward some evidence to support any suggestion of imbalanced processing.

The half time team talks are still way OP full stop, not just the AI. There's loads of times i've bollocked my team at half time to overturn results, just as it's been done to me.

Someone should finally take some solid statistics from real life and game to see just how many results actually see this kinda turn around so that it can be balanced. There's ALWAYS a mathematical mean for these kinda things.

On reflection, I think we should all stop using the words fake, cheat, fixed etc. At the end of the day the game is a piece of software, an imperfect one at that. It's a natural admission by the amount of updates that are released that SI know there will be mistakes and that there's room for improvement.

I think it'd be a good idea for people to play a season and actually bring forward some evidence to support any suggestion of imbalanced processing.

Fair enough, cheat may not be the word. Really overpowered feature works for me.

If their was a feature built in that had AI managers have a team talk attribute, where great managers get their talks right consistently while others are average or hit and miss, I'd be fine. Having all Lower League Manager rally his troops against me nearly every single game drives me nuts.

Is it weaker teams that you have particular problems with?

Is it weaker teams that you have particular problems with?

No, any team will do it to me. The weaker teams are just particularly frustrating. I'm usually playing a save game in the Lower Leagues, so that's why I mentioned LLM's.

Think of this game as a massive load of if else statements.

The game starts, it calculated to the end, showing the cpu when to show the the highlights of the game...

Then, another statement comes in which is something like, if 2-0 down switch to attacking tactic else keep everything as it is. Then when this change has been implemented by the AI the game is calculated again, (which is why you can tell when the AI make a change as the game slows down and the highlights, well on my system anyway start to jump and glitch) which calculates the match and then tell the cpu when to show the highlights.

The if else state ments are at different times and parts of each match. I find they are at 20 minutes into the game, half time, 60-70 minutes. And of course when goals are scored.

This means the match is calculated many times during one game and will not play out the same twice as random seeds are added to make the game more realistic and random life real life.

The weighting system that determines the match engine is another thing. I think this would take into account key attributes for certain positions, weight them up against each other factoring morale, club happiness and TACTICS into it.

This is why it seems no matter what I do I cannot stop Ishmael Miller from scoring against me. His key attributes for striker position *acc, pace, off the ball, dribbling, etc...* is higher than my defenders key defensive attributes *positioning, pace, marking tackling etc...*

The absolute KEY to tactics, is finding the settings that close this gap, Simple example- playing a certain tackling system since Ishmael Millers dribbling, is better than your players tackling. Or playing a certain marking on someone with higher off the ball and anticipation compared to your defenders positioning and marking.

This is all of course a guess on how the game works and is coded. If I were to try to produce a simulation of football using numbers to represent player ability(I mean what other ways are there?) this is how I am guessing it would be done.

In my Kidderminster game, I've developed something of a habit of losing at half-time, then winning the match in the second half. I guess the opposition's manager doesn't always get his teamtalks right!

I've read many a time that the game's AI compensates by shifting odds against you if you're over achieving. Surely that's cheating, it's not like it's anyones fault that you might happen to know how to get good results.

I'm sure every team in the premiership is saying "Hull are 10th! they're not allowed to do this. QUICK!! we must terrorise them with a 3 month string of losses that go against all match stats. we'll do it using a cunning mixture of own goals, suicidal back passes, wonder strikes, and super keepers!"

That's true. It's how they replicate real life, unfortunately sometimes it just feels like the game is cheating you all the time.

If I remember back to the earlyier versions of championship manager you used to be able to go out and regularly beat teams 6, 7, and 8-nil. With the goalkeeper getting a rating of 3 all the time. There used to be a lot of silly scorelines.

That's true. It's how they replicate real life, unfortunately sometimes it just feels like the game is cheating you all the time.

If I remember back to the earlyier versions of championship manager you used to be able to go out and regularly beat teams 6, 7, and 8-nil. With the goalkeeper getting a rating of 3 all the time. There used to be a lot of silly scorelines.

Man, could I use a good old silly scoreline. Teams I absolutely destroy out on the field are drawing against me, or I sneak by 1-0. The only time my team puts up big scorelines is against teams that are fairly evenly matched. Then I can put in something like 4 goals in 7 or 8 shots. But when I put up 15 or 20 shots I'm lucky to get one. Their is definitely something at play to stop human teams from running up scores despite better tactics, player talent, and morale when the AI team is a significant underdog. Against underdogs my possession % and shots go way up, while my shots on goal percentage dips drastically, my CCCs go down, and my scoring goes down. I beat a team today when my possession % was 68, 15 shots, 2!! on goal, 1 CCC while AI team had zeroes across the board for offensive stats - no shots, no CCCs etc. Final score, 1-0. I would say fine, these things happen in real life. But I see games with similar numbers all the time.

Another situatioan that it happened in real life was Tottenham 3-0 up at half time and losing 5-3 to Man Utd YEssss

“In fact, one's own players DO seem to become incapable of stringing two passes together in these scenarios - this has been remarked upon in a number of posts.

The half time team talks, of course, are ludicrously over weighted in importance, as are press conferences.”

Indeed.

The game’s fans of the quasi-religious devotion variety see accusations of this kind as if others are accusing it of being endowed with some sort of future-worldly artificial intelligence that’s out to get the human player.

The fact is that team talks are over-weighted which acts, largely, against the human player (even though the BS merchants on here will pretend their tactics are SO GOOD they’ve never noticied – heck, they reckon their tactics are SO GOOD that even subsequently acknowledged bugs miraculously don’t affect them).

You can IMMEDIATLEY see if you picked the wrong team talk. Your team loses every challenge, messes up every simple pass. Your team are wilfully handicapped by the ME. Replay with everything exactly the same but with what the AI has deemed the correct teamtalk and you actually see a football match.

It’s one of the annoying things about the game, and unless they can re-balance it they should do away with it. It is senseless to me that I witness a laugable, one-sided procession rather than a match between two football teams just because I had the temerity to encourage my players rather than wish them luck.

Lunacy.

“In fact, one's own players DO seem to become incapable of stringing two passes together in these scenarios - this has been remarked upon in a number of posts.

The half time team talks, of course, are ludicrously over weighted in importance, as are press conferences.”

Indeed.

The game’s fans of the quasi-religious devotion variety see accusations of this kind as if others are accusing it of being endowed with some sort of future-worldly artificial intelligence that’s out to get the human player.

The fact is that team talks are over-weighted which acts, largely, against the human player (even though the BS merchants on here will pretend their tactics are SO GOOD they’ve never noticied – heck, they reckon their tactics are SO GOOD that even subsequently acknowledged bugs miraculously don’t affect them).

You can IMMEDIATLEY see if you picked the wrong team talk. Your team loses every challenge, messes up every simple pass. Your team are wilfully handicapped by the ME. Replay with everything exactly the same but with what the AI has deemed the correct teamtalk and you actually see a football match.

It’s one of the annoying things about the game, and unless they can re-balance it they should do away with it. It is senseless to me that I witness a laugable, one-sided procession rather than a match between two football teams just because I had the temerity to encourage my players rather than wish them luck.

Lunacy.

I wouldn't mind if team talks and press conferences were relevant or made any sense. Agreed 100%. Give ma back Football Manager not One in Four Manager.

Sometimes it feels to me as if it's all about countering the AI. What I mean is that it all comes down to whether you happen to pick the right tactics and the right teamtalk that will break down the AI. If you don't, it's advantage AI. It's as if the AI doesn't have to worry about getting things wrong. The onus is all on the human player and if the human player gets it wrong, then you know how things will go. I wish sometimes it would seem as if the AI had got its tactics wrong or picked a totally demotivational teamtalk.

the second half bug (whatever it is) just hit me beating spurs 5-0 in 1st half with middlesboro (i was amazed as can hardly score 2 goals a whole match) had 62% possesion 14 shots on goal 8 on target. give team talk saying happy with them, go out to play second half bang 2 goals against me in 5 mins, ok change my formation so middfield is packed and more defensive bang 2 goals again in 5 mins 10 mins to go of match i score a goal so 6-4 up change to a full defensive basicaly 5-5-0 formation with all staying back last 3 mins they score so 6-5 i am sweating now 5 mins of injury time to play penalty 6-6 i am furios now into 5 min injury time my defender passes back to kepper who fluffs his kick bang 7-6 to them final whistle blows look at my stats only had 1 shot at goal which scored now there stats were 12 shots on goal 8 on target and 7 goals. how the hell is doing well as a half time team talk translated to go out lads and play really crap dont do what u did first half and let them play like brazil on speed work.

bumpty bump

It’s one of the annoying things about the game, and unless they can re-balance it they should do away with it. It is senseless to me that I witness a laughable, one-sided procession rather than a match between two football teams just because I had the temerity to encourage my players rather than wish them luck.

Lunacy.

This particular post should be engraved into a tablet of granite, and planted within SI Towers.

Well said, sir