This game is fantastic!

So here I am, in the 2016-17 season, managing my favorite club and in truth; I couldn't be enjoying my self any more!

This game despite a few bugs here and there is just great! The transfer system is well worked and you get teams from every end of the spectrum of transfer policy, from an AC Milan, if they weren't a star in 1871 they're not good enough, to Arsene Wenger's youth developement. Sure some people get disillusioned at the fact that some big clubs drop off and some surprising teams replace them, but this happens in real life. Who the **** were Chelsea a decade ago, where the **** did Leeds go? It really does offer some interesting dynamics.

Then there's the tactical system. I'm enjoying how much it rewards consistancy this time around. As Derby demonstrated sudden changes in playing staff and tactics can result immediate death and in this game much the same can happen. It's no longer a case of getting a super tactic and watching your u-18s destroy champions league winning sides. Sure, the sliders and that can seem daunting to a new comer, but they truly aren't that difficult to understand and in truth they aren't the be all and end all of the game.

The media is better now, though repetative as always, I've enjoyed some of the questions that they've asked and how much of an effect a bit of confidence can have... Then how much of an effect that overconfidence can have! All good fun though, especially when that Journo asked me the same question 3 times as I wasn't answering: So I stormed out calling him a [removed]...

The regens are also a lot better. Though there could be some improvements... Like saying one not having a **** poor other foot! But this can be over looked... For now! It's enjoyable to see a player reaching his potential as early as 19 sometimes, or a 15 year old banging in a goal, but on the other side of the coin it's good to see some players not reach their potential until their mid twenties. All around a better system than last year.

Whilst I doubt Frank Lampard and Gerrard are going to be playing for Chelsea and Liverpool until the age of 38, it's better than them becoming completely useless at the age of 32. Probably need a tad bit of improvement here.

Then there's physically making transfers. It seems bang on... As long as you're not Man City. Players who still have a lot to offer can also be sold at good prices. I recently sold my backup right winger for £19.25 mil. Not too shabby.

Then there's that best part of the game: [removed] happens! It happens to all of us, it happens to the computers and it is just the icing on the cake of the realism. Though a lot of people come here and have a cry about it every 5 seconds: "WAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!!!!!!! WHY DID I LOSE! I HAD A WHOLE 2 SHOTS MORE THAN THEM YET I LOST ONE NIL! WHAT DID I DO WRONG!!! WAAAAAAAHHHH!!!"

Almost forgot the 3d view this time... It's fantastic! Sure, it looks like it was made in 1999, but hey at least it now looks like a football match. I've even seen a bicycle kick or two!

I agree!

I agree, this game is fantastic. However, it has the potential to be even more fantastic, so hopefully SI are working on it

I agree, this game is fantastic. However, it has the potential to be even more fantastic, so hopefully SI are working on it

It really could be. Maybe a couple of tweaks here and there. Fix the issue with almost every regen being one footed, maybe tweak how they rate midfielders a tad, develope the 3d a bit more and a fix little tweaks to the match engine and this game out be beyond fantastic!

So far 16 for a good game.

4 for neutral.

Then a petty 5 for a bad game.

Looking good! I guess the massive amount of negative threads is more because people who actually are enjoying the game (the majority) are off enjoying it.

Ive gone with great, maybe nudging fantastic depending on if there is a patch due out and what it sorts out!

i went fantastic.

Yes the game needs some tweaking, i mean the press conferences for example, i think thats a great addition,a little boring that its the same questions pretty much, but the concept works..

the additions are great, just need a few bugs worked out, but the game is still growing!

Ive gone with great, maybe nudging fantastic depending on if there is a patch due out and what it sorts out!

whs ^

For the game is palyable and I really enjoy it, but there are some "minor" issues like the so called "Bojan" bug and the rating of the AMC/MC. But these are minor and the game is enjoyable with these in.

I've went with terrible, because I just dinnae like it.

I've gone with poor. The tactical aspect of the game has been shot to hell this year.

I've gone with poor. The tactical aspect of the game has been shot to hell this year.

What? Are you sure you're not just terrible at the game?

Explain... That's an important part of feedback.

What? Are you sure you're not just terrible at the game?

Explain... That's an important part of feedback.

It's been discussed time and time again on the forums, with some very interesting debates. Do a search and you'll get all the feedback you want!

BTW he never said that he wasn't getting good results in the game, he said the tactics were shot. He could be enjoying success with his current tactics, but not enjoying the tactics themselves, no need to be quite so arsey tbh.

It's been discussed time and time again on the forums, with some very interesting debates. Do a search and you'll get all the feedback you want!

BTW he never said that he wasn't getting good results in the game, he said the tactics were shot. He could be enjoying success with his current tactics, but not enjoying the tactics themselves, no need to be quite so arsey tbh.

Don't care, it's 47°C!

Now, let's think... I've read almost all the arguments and they are basically saying: "I can't make my centerhalves stay in the box" or "I've lost a game, no matter how many times a minute a hack and slash my tactics I can't get a result". The issue is that defenses will push up as you have the ball, maybe SI need to think about giving us greater control in this area though. One of the biggest gripes I have at the moment though is people who complain that they're losing and constantly blame the tactical system in the game.

Don't care, it's 47°C!

Now, let's think... I've read almost all the arguments and they are basically saying: "I can't make my centerhalves stay in the box" or "I've lost a game, no matter how many times a minute a hack and slash my tactics I can't get a result". The issue is that defenses will push up as you have the ball, maybe SI need to think about giving us greater control in this area though. One of the biggest gripes I have at the moment though is people who complain that they're losing and constantly blame the tactical system in the game.

You're reading the wrong threads then, either that or you haven't read "almost all" of them. My problem with the tactics system is that I end up creating a tactic to win rather than create a tactic that conveys the style of play I enjoy. You need to be open minded about the issues that people have with the game and tactics in particular.

I hate the tactical system, but I managed to get into the CL with Udinese in my second season, which I consider success. That doesn't fit into your sweeping statements on reasons for people not liking tactics.

No offence to anyone, but SI have done their job and released a game that still appeals to the masses and will continue to hit its target sales, but the overlying factor for me is that the more you know about football, the less you will enjoy the game.

Now theres absolutely nothing wrong with that, but for the vast majority of us true football officianado's, i'm talking about those of us who already have a good knowledge of how professional football is played tactically and of how to expect players to respond, the game(largely the ME and matchday experience) falls far short of expectation, to the point of appearing quite farcical.

I dont expect perfection, far from it, but the quality of the most important feature in the whole game, The Match is quite awful.

Fantastic game but not without it's faults.

I've had to go with poor as I simply don't enjoy '09.

I went back to '08 last night and it made me realise how much better it was for me than '09.

You're reading the wrong threads then, either that or you haven't read "almost all" of them. My problem with the tactics system is that I end up creating a tactic to win rather than create a tactic that conveys the style of play I enjoy. You need to be open minded about the issues that people have with the game and tactics in particular.

I hate the tactical system, but I managed to get into the CL with Udinese in my second season, which I consider success. That doesn't fit into your sweeping statements on reasons for people not liking tactics.

So you don't like the system because you can't play the way you "want". The issue is probably based around the quality of players at your disposal.

For example, Billy Davies was very successful with Derby playing the long ball game. However the squad he'd assembled would not be capable of playing "the beautiful game" as some call it. The issue then comes down to the kinds of players you have, and what you "want" to play like. Not every player can play like an Arsenal player, some are inevitably going to have to play like most of the Championship and go route one.

The point of being a manager is to get results, it's not realistic for the current crop of say Stoke to play "the beautiful game" like Arsenal.

No offence to anyone, but SI have done their job and released a game that still appeals to the masses and will continue to hit its target sales, but the overlying factor for me is that the more you know about football, the less you will enjoy the game.

Now theres absolutely nothing wrong with that, but for the vast majority of us true football officianado's, i'm talking about those of us who already have a good knowledge of how professional football is played tactically and of how to expect players to respond, the game(largely the ME and matchday experience) falls far short of expectation, to the point of appearing quite farcical.

I dont expect perfection, far from it, but the quality of the most important feature in the whole game, The Match is quite awful.

Don't exactly agree with you there. The comment has made you look a bit up yourself though.

I went with poor. If I'd answered this question around the 20th Novemer I would have gone for whatever you have listed as the top option. However over time my opinion has changed. There are still to many ME flaws, such as players who, having chased the ball down, then put the ball out of play from 5 yards away from the touchline. I have spent 50 odd hours at least playing with and tweaking tactics and my team will not play the way I want. However going back to 08 my team play almost exactly as I want and the few ME flaws are hardly noticable.

Don't exactly agree with you there. The comment has made you look a bit up yourself though.

Which is exactly what this has done for you. Care to provide reasons for non-agreement or are you just trolling and post boosting in your own thread?

There's no need for trolling from anyone - stick to the topic, not a discussion of other people's posting styles.

1) People can still be unhappy with a decent game. It's only their whingeing that gets certain things addressed.

2) Just because you are so 'great' at the game doesn't mean that it's the reason why everyone is so unhappy. I've taken Palmas from the Brazilian 3rd division to the top division in 6 seasons - Where is the thread proclaiming me a tactical genius? The anser is that it doesn't matter if I'm winning or losing, I don't sit there and kneejerk react to everything that happens in the game with a post on here. On the other hand, I think I have noticed flaws in the game that (if they were fixed) would vastly improve the game. Who are you to tell me that I should not have my say? If you think the game is great, then fine, but I don't see why you constantly politik for SI. They don't need your help, and the way that you and a couple of others seem to believe that since you are doing fine, then hey, the game is great, is annoying.

You can gloss over things as much as you like, but you respond to all posts the same way: It's probably your tactics.

When the patch comes out, you'll find that SI have in fact taken our suggestions on board as much as possible, and that even if you sit there and tell them that their game is great and practically perfect, they aren't daft, and they know that there are huge glaring issues that not every customer is willing to gloss over. They have made a great game, but it is absolutely riddled with glitches and bugs. Once the next patch is out, I might say it is good, but whilst the 3D engine remains as terrible as it is, I think I'll stay away from 'beyond sycophantic' sorry! - fantastic, thanks.

The game itself is good probably the best fm there has been in a while but I just can't get into playing it.

Which is exactly what this has done for you. Care to provide reasons for non-agreement or are you just trolling and post posting in your own thread?

Read what you wrote again matey!

I went with poor. If I'd answered this question around the 20th Novemer I would have gone for whatever you have listed as the top option. However over time my opinion has changed. There are still to many ME flaws, such as players who, having chased the ball down, then put the ball out of play from 5 yards away from the touchline. I have spent 50 odd hours at least playing with and tweaking tactics and my team will not play the way I want. However going back to 08 my team play almost exactly as I want and the few ME flaws are hardly noticable.

I enjoyed Football Manager 2008, but there were some fairly significant flaws. The most significant was how easy strikers found it to get one on one and then beat the keeper nearly 100%. Though this game isn't without it's flaws and in fact one of the flaws that I'm rather annoyed with has to do with Strikers anyhow.

1) People can still be unhappy with a decent game. It's only their whingeing that gets certain things addressed.

2) Just because you are so 'great' at the game doesn't mean that it's the reason why everyone is so unhappy. I've taken Palmas from the Brazilian 3rd division to the top division in 6 seasons - Where is the thread proclaiming me a tactical genius? The anser is that it doesn't matter if I'm winning or losing, I don't sit there and kneejerk react to everything that happens in the game with a post on here. On the other hand, I think I have noticed flaws in the game that (if they were fixed) would vastly improve the game. Who are you to tell me that I should not have my say? If you think the game is great, then fine, but I don't see why you constantly politik for SI. They don't need your help, and the way that you and a couple of others seem to believe that since you are doing fine, then hey, the game is great, is annoying.

You can gloss over things as much as you like, but you respond to all posts the same way: It's probably your tactics.

When the patch comes out, you'll find that SI have in fact taken our suggestions on board as much as possible, and that even if you sit there and tell them that their game is great and practically perfect, they aren't daft, and they know that there are huge glaring issues that not every customer is willing to gloss over. They have made a great game, but it is absolutely riddled with glitches and bugs. Once the next patch is out, I might say it is good, but whilst the 3D engine remains as terrible as it is, I think I'll stay away from 'beyond sycophantic' sorry! - fantastic, thanks.

Well actually, I've been very hit and miss. But whether I'm winning or losing I'm enjoying the game. At the moment in the save I'm playing I've done well, but another 3 saves I've had so far have been mediocre to poor in terms of my side's performance. Me defending the game so much isn't about me doing well at the game, it's about people not giving poor feedback and ruining the game again as has happened before with countless things. People complained about regens being too good back in 07, so in 08 they were far too poor. In response to that they've fixed them well enough though, but I swear people are going to say their poor again and so the cycle begins again. Then there's the strikers, last year they were rediculous. I had one bloke who had 68 in 60 matches whilst I was a top flight side. He scored a casual 24 in the Champions League! This year's good, there might be too many missed one on one's and too many one on one's in general, but the scoring for one on one's might be about right overall.

The issue as I've said above is about not giving negative whingy feedback when they've done things right. I've made a couple of little complaints in the original post if you'd read it, but not some of the dross that's about the tactics. Sure there's a couple of things that need to be tweaks, but nothing as major as what people have been saying.

I'm still trying to find a thread proclaiming myself a tactical genius though, must have slipped past me.

Now, you can have your say, I'm all for that, but if I think you're wrong then I'll speak against it, as I too have a right to say what I think.

To recap, when my Queensland Roar and Burton Albion saves because complete failures, I didn't come on and say it was all because of an "issue" in the tactical system. When I failed to improve on my second attempt at the Burton game I didn't come through here spewing such nonsense about how it must be because I can't make the team play "my way". You've found things that you "think" are flaws and as of yet I've not found them to be flaws and hence our opinions of this are opposing.

1) What is trolling by the way, ive never known...

2) I voted great, because while it does have its minor issues, this is the first one ive enjoyed playing as a lower league team, because of the longevity that the reasonable regens can offer in the long run.

The issue as I've said above is about not giving negative whingy feedback when they've done things right. I've made a couple of little complaints in the original post if you'd read it, but not some of the dross that's about the tactics. Sure there's a couple of things that need to be tweaks, but nothing as major as what people have been saying.

Perhaps you should add "in my opinion" to the end of that, otherwise people will think you're forcing your views down their throat, which by all accounts is what you are complaining about when it comes to "whingers".

To recap, when my Queensland Roar and Burton Albion saves because complete failures, I didn't come on and say it was all because of an "issue" in the tactical system.

I don't think anyone in this thread has said that or come accross as having that attitude so it's a redundant point.

I've gone for "Okay"

I just feel that with a bit more attention to certain areas of the game, FM could be so much more than it currently is.

If I rated it "Fantastic" than I'd be implying that it couldn't get any better, and that's simply not the case.

Fantastic for me. As an older gamer but newcomer to FM I can honestly say I am astounded by the level of detail.

Challenging and fun.

Anyone who thinks it's 'terrible' must be nuts (imo) but the major difference between myself and you, Some Guy!, is that just because an issue is not affecting me, doesn't mean that it is not a problem. Some issues are more acute in different leagues (Spain for example) and at different levels. For that reason, I can see why people's experiences with the game could be pretty much ruined, as they would be forced to play leagues that they perhaps didn't want to.

Perhaps you should add "in my opinion" to the end of that, otherwise people will think you're forcing your views down their throat, which by all accounts is what you are complaining about when it comes to "whingers".

...ummmm...

Okay, let's put this in the simplest terms I can.

I'm not adding "in my opinion" to what I right now, or ever because it's a redundant point.

Seriously? Who's opinion do you think it is?

I understand that some people see it as pseudo-polite, but it annoys me to no end... IMHO!

Again, to emphasis this point. Just because someone hasn't made a clear and plain point that it is their opinion and not that of some devine being or something, doesn't mean that it isn't their opinion. Unless you specifically make reference to someone else's work or statistical data it is by definition your opinion. In the case where statistical data or someone else's work is used it is quite obvious that it isn't your opinion.

How about 'stop arguing semantics'?

So far 16 for a good game.

4 for neutral.

Then a petty 5 for a bad game.

Looking good! I guess the massive amount of negative threads is more because people who actually are enjoying the game (the majority) are off enjoying it.

The reason why there are negative threads is because there are problems with the game.

The tactical system is clumsy and the ME has a number of faults.

The game has room for improvement. It's not 'terrible' but I think that it's overrated.

I enjoyed Football Manager 2008, but there were some fairly significant flaws. The most significant was how easy strikers found it to get one on one and then beat the keeper nearly 100%. Though this game isn't without it's flaws and in fact one of the flaws that I'm rather annoyed with has to do with Strikers anyhow.

It seems to me that not only have you been reading the wrong threads but you've also been playing the wrong game to most people.

One of the biggest complaints throughout FM08 from many people was that their strikers missed a ton of one on ones. Hence the popularity of the 'It's your tactics' argument back then. If you used a lone striker you could get them scoring a lot of goals, but for most people they had trouble with one on ones, why do you think there were so many 'The AI cheats' threads around?

Despite that In my opinion FM08 was a better game, which is why I've gone back to it.

Just because you're enjoying the game does not mean that everyone should. I've seen some very constructive threads outlining the issues people have with the game, so for you to dismiss these issues and claim that people are simply whinging for the sake of it is way off the mark.

Anyone who thinks it's 'terrible' must be nuts (imo) but the major difference between myself and you, Some Guy!, is that just because an issue is not affecting me, doesn't mean that it is not a problem. Some issues are more actue in different leagues (Spain for example) and at different levels.

Well, I understand what you're saying. But I've yet to see this issues and many of them I should have encountered if they were there. With the tactical system, it does exactly what it says on the box, and one of the biggest issue, which I continue to believe is a big problem for some people and myself in the past is that people throw consistancy out the window the moment that a result goes against them, making things even more difficult.

I also do aknowladge a lot of issues with the game, don't get me wrong there are bugs and little tweaks that must be done, but much of what's being written by people seems to be pure hyperbole... Though that isn't really the right word now is it, as I feel that many people do it for the effect. Though I sometimes do...

Anyhow, it's good to have two sides to a coin, otherwise we may end up continuing with the old pattern of one year amazing regens, the next year terrible ones, then the year after amazing ones, then...

Well, I understand what you're saying. But I've yet to see this issues and many of them I should have encountered if they were there.

I never experienced the corner exploit in 08, by your reasoning that means it doesn't exist.

How about 'stop arguing semantics'?

He told me to start using that stupid redundant cliché!

The reason why there are negative threads is because there are problems with the game.

The tactical system is clumsy and the ME has a number of faults.

The game has room for improvement. It's not 'terrible' but I think that it's overrated.

Poor science! Whilst the game does have some faults that need to be fixed the presense of negative threads doesn't mean that the tactical system is "clumsy", it means that the game is being played by people.

It seems to me that not only have you been reading the wrong threads but you've also been playing the wrong game to most people.

One of the biggest complaints throughout FM08 from many people was that their strikers missed a ton of one on ones. Hence the popularity of the 'It's your tactics' argument back then. If you used a lone striker you could get them scoring a lot of goals, but for most people they had trouble with one on ones, why do you think there were so many 'The AI cheats' threads around?

Despite that In my opinion FM08 was a better game, which is why I've gone back to it.

Just because you're enjoying the game does not mean that everyone should. I've seen some very constructive threads outlining the issues people have with the game, so for you to dismiss these issues and claim that people are simply whinging for the sake of it is way off the mark.

I scored tons of goals in FM 2008. I got more than 100 league goals every season... In fact, I might just dig out some of those statistics in a second. I never played one striker once from the start of a match either. I played a 3-4-1-2, a AMC as a freerole behind the front two, one big man and one little man. Short passing, playing slightly narrow, pushed up back 3. Those were the days!

I was nearly going to overlook some of the glaring issue with FM 2008 and continue with the game. But in the end I opted to buy FM 2009 and I'm really enjoying it.

Well, I understand what you're saying. But I've yet to see this issues and many of them I should have encountered if they were there. With the tactical system, it does exactly what it says on the box, and one of the biggest issue, which I continue to believe is a big problem for some people and myself in the past is that people throw consistancy out the window the moment that a result goes against them, making things even more difficult.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Which again goes to show that you haven't read the threads that you claim to have. We've had some excellent debates with wwfan and Paul C about this. wwfan himself admits that the sliders are unintuative and Paul C has stated that this is being looked at for the next game. It far from does what it says on the box because the slider system has nowt to do with real football.

And again your wrong in your guess that it has anything to do with consistancy. I've spent years in and out of the tactics forum and in that time have learned a lot about the tactical side of FM. Many of us having debates about the merits of the current tactical system know exactly what we're talking about. Again, read the threads before passing off peoples issues as unfounded whinges just because you've managed to avoid them. Particularly have a read of 'Where's the fun gone', my 'Is there too much randomness in the game or is it all a myth' and Hammers locked thread form a few weeks ago (can't remember the name).

I never experienced the corner exploit in 08, by your reasoning that means it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that if I haven't experienced it, I'll check it out and then see if I can find it. If I can't and I have no other reason to believe it then I see if there's any other explinations. If I can find it then I work with that hypothesis. I think it's refered to as the scientific method...

In terms of the great 'corner cheat'. I heard about it, I tested the claim and there was some truth behind it. I think it was slightly exagerated, though with some time and effort I'm sure people could really milk it.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that if I haven't experienced it, I'll check it out and then see if I can find it. If I can't and I have no other reason to believe it then I see if there's any other explinations. If I can find it then I work with that hypothesis. I think it's refered to as the scientific method...

No, what you basically said was that you haven't experienced it so everyone else is simply whinging.

I don't understand what your problem is with people disliking the game. Why do you have such a bee in you bonnet? It's a non issue and doesn't serve for discussion as it's pretty obvious neither side will convince the other.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Which again goes to show that you haven't read the threads that you claim to have. We've had some excellent debates with wwfan and Paul C about this. wwfan himself admits that the sliders are unintuative and Paul C has stated that this is being looked at for the next game. It far from does what it says on the box because the slider system has nowt to do with real football.

And again your wrong in your guess that it has anything to do with consistancy. I've spent years in and out of the tactics forum and in that time have learned a lot about the tactical side of FM. Many of us having debates about the merits of the current tactical system know exactly what we're talking about. Again, read the threads before passing off peoples issues as unfounded whinges just because you've managed to avoid them. Particularly have a read of 'Where's the fun gone', my 'Is there too much randomness in the game or is it all a myth' and Hammers locked thread form a few weeks ago (can't remember the name).

It does have nothing to do with real football, but as it's not real football you can't work it as such. It's more of a compromise and it they can change it for the better I'm all for it. It's like colours on paint. When you choose a specific one you can meddle with the RBG values (like sliders). However there is a more intuitive system where by you can just grab cursor and choose which on you want on the palette. Back to the tactics, if they can come up with a better system that won't destroy the game and make it more like some of it's competition then I'm all for it! But as of yet I've seen nothing to replace the slider system which I still maintain do exactly what they say on the tin. I think you may have misunderstood that little line though so I'll rephrase it. More attacking mentality makes the players have a more attacking mentality, width controls the width and so on.

I've read a lot about people complaining that sides are too easily affected by signing too many players, changing of tactics and such (which again I don't agree with)... But hey...

I've read through the "Where's the fun gone" thread, in fact I've posted a lot in there. I've also made some posts in the "Is there too much randomness in the game or is it all a myth" thread too. They raised some interesting points, but the idea that there's too much chance in a sports management simulator is ubsurd!

The tactical system being clumsy is a matter of observable fact. The fact that there are a lot of grumbles about it is not the result of some faults with the people who are unhappy but is to do with things which are wrong with the game!

SI themselves admit that the slider system needs to be looked at, Paul C has said so. See posts by such people as wwfan (one of the authors of the TTF 'bible') where he highlights some of the various problems which exist.

How ever much you may be in denial, things need improving in this area.

And it's not 'absurd' to say that there is too much randomness in a game. It's a perfectly sensible point to make.

was on the fence between okay and poor. Had to go with poor because of the tactical side of the game or more the lack of control of it. and ofcourse there is the issue with the Spanish leagues.

Game has potential to go to great but with the current tactical system i can't for my life say that this game could be fantastic.

I have no trouble getting results with the game it's the long term aspect of the game that has been broken for me.

If we overlook the wonderkids being released and old players playing till they are grandparents and rackiing up 200 caps for their counytries.

We are still left with a very slow game with lot's of pointless features and a very clumsy tactical interface with limited options for control over your players.

It's not enough that i win every game, i want to be in control over my players and tell them exactly what i want from them and still have the option to give some of my players free hands to do whatever they want.

No, what you basically said was that you haven't experienced it so everyone else is simply whinging.

Again, no... I've said that I've found nothing that would convince me of it, so I've questioned it and people get on the defensive and fail to provide further useful information. Hence it goes from they're reporting an issue to their whinging in my eyes. If however they offer up actual evidence and then I can find this issue, BAM! I can then be convinced and campaign along side of them for the issue to be fixed.

A friend of mine once said that he'd found gold in his backyard (this is now some 10 years ago). I went there and had a look, there was no sign of gold but there was old scrunched up tin foil that had weathered. What do you think his gold was?

I don't understand what your problem is with people disliking the game. Why do you have such a bee in you bonnet? It's a non issue and doesn't serve for discussion as it's pretty obvious neither side will convince the other.

It's not a problem with disliking the game, criticism without due cause.

It's not a problem with disliking the game, critisism without due cause.

You need to quantify that or your criticism is without due to cause.

The tactical system being clumsy is a matter of observable fact. The fact that there are a lot of grumbles about it is not the result of some faults with the people who are unhappy but is to do with things which are wrong with the game!

SI themselves admit that the slider system needs to be looked at, Paul C has said so. See posts by such people as wwfan (one of the authors of the TTF 'bible') where he highlights some of the various problems which exist.

How ever much you may be in denial, things need improving in this area.

And it's not 'absurd' to say that there is too much randomness in a game. It's a perfectly sensible point to make.

Wait, I just agreed that the tactical system could do with an overhaul if one can be done right, yet you came back as if I had said that the current tactical system is a perfect recreation of how tactics work in real football... I'm confused? Do you lack the ability to read? The sliders are unintuitive, but they still work, which is where the disagreement between you and me is about. Like my point with the palette in paint, I feel that the current system works, but it needs to be changed to be more intuitive and more user friendly.

I think there's the right amount of chance floating around in the game. Did you hear about Derby v Birmingham on Tuesday? Derby lost after dominating from the off due to a lucky goal for Birmingham. It happens, it happens a lot in fact and it's one thing that if we want the game to be realistic we need to stop complaining about.

was on the fence between okay and poor. Had to go with poor because of the tactical side of the game or more the lack of control of it. and ofcourse there is the issue with the Spanish leagues.

Game has potential to go to great but with the current tactical system i can't for my life say that this game could be fantastic.

I have no trouble getting results with the game it's the long term aspect of the game that has been broken for me.

If we overlook the wonderkids being released and old players playing till they are grandparents and rackiing up 200 caps for their counytries.

We are still left with a very slow game with lot's of pointless features and a very clumsy tactical interface with limited options for control over your players.

It's not enough that i win every game, i want to be in control over my players and tell them exactly what i want from them and still have the option to give some of my players free hands to do whatever they want.

The wonderkid issues need to be fixed, and I think that SI's kneejerk to us complaining about players becoming decrepid the moment they turned 30 has sent them too far in the other way. Don't get me wrong, players can be amazing upto 35 and retire with pride, look at Zidane... Sort of. But when I see Frank Lampard at 38 staring for an aging and ailing Chelsea there is a noticable problem. Though the AI does get it right in a lot of cases. Arsenal have built and rebuilt their team a few times now and it's still as strong as ever. But yes, they need to do something about the golden oldies. Maybe get them to decided to retire earlier, or make them begin to age a tad quicker than they are now. Actually a bit of both would work nicely.

match engine ruins it completely

Eh? Forget tactics for a second:

Bojan bug

3D glitches

Centre Midfielders unable to get decent average ratings

Spanish leagues completely ruined by B teams.

Young unattached players retiring en masse every season despite heavy interest from other teams

Clubs unable to improve sponsorship

No season ticket holders in Brazil

players consistently getting pulled hamstrings/thigh strains as a result of contact unjuries.

Virtually all injuries being of the '3 weeks - a month' variety

All of these are issues that SI has acknowledged.

match engine ruins it completely

It pains me to say it, but I agree The tactical aspect of the game is just the tip of the iceberg and many of the complaints in the game are justified and SI have said that they are looking into them.

Should also be noted that the '2D classic' mode is almost unplayable for the majority of players, thus meaning that if you aren't happy with 3D, then.. tough.