Discussion: A 2D match engine or a 3D Match Engine

I feel that a 2D match engine is better because it is easier to run on a computer and would be less buggy.

What does everyone else think?

I feel that a 2D match engine is better because it is easier to run on a computer and would be less buggy.

What does everyone else think?

2D.

2D all the way, it is part of the magic that is FM.

I would prefer they first make the thing somewhat more realistic before they concentrate on switching to 3d

Even better 2D

I'm sure if you guys could see C. Ronaldo or Mancini doing their step-over moves and leaving some defender eating grass in 3D you would change those 2D votes real quick.

It's 2008 people and quad core highpowered computers will be cheap by the end of this year, I vote 3D.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wakers:

I would prefer they first make the thing somewhat more realistic before they concentrate on switching to 3d </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. Concentrate on fixing the many flaws in the current one before going fancy.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm sure if you guys could see C. Ronaldo or Mancini doing their step-over moves and leaving some defender eating grass in 3D you would change those 2D votes real quick.

It's 2008 people and quad core highpowered computers will be cheap by the end of this year, I vote 3D. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeh sure it would be nice to see, but not in this game. The 2d is purely a superficial representation of the match engine, it has no bearing on the game as a whole just a nice way of watching whats happening.

A 3d match engine would be completely pointless, it would take up valuable processing power away from the actualimportant parts of the game most of us want to play and not everyones gonna be able to afford the computers needed to play that on, despite however cheap they might be.

At the end of the day, there are other, more important, issues in the game which need improving. I'd say the 2d match engine is pretty low down on that list. Until some new form of game code is created or everyone owns ridiculously powered computers the 2d match engine is here to stay and I for one am glad about that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wakers:

I would prefer they first make the thing somewhat more realistic before they concentrate on switching to 3d </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

3d is where this game will be going, there is no doubt, the emergence of so many other 3d football games (pro evo, fifa etc) show that its a winner, and because all you are doing is watching it will probably be easier to do than start from scratch a 3d-controllable game

but saying it will eat processing time is stupid, by the time such an improvement is implemented in fm (assuming it hasnt already been started) you are looking at least the 2010 version by which time wont make any differnce

id love to have the 3d but it would introduce alot more liscensing problems in showing all the players (i know there is some trouble already in showing premiership logos etc from the official version)

2D is fine for the match but I wouldn't mind being able to see key incidents available after the match in 3D, especially if the press ask you for a comment and you haven't seen the whole picture.

I like 2D but it would be great if they could stick little arms and legs amd heads on player icons, as long as these looked quite good graphically and most importantly, moved intelligently. And show them jumping. So, sort of a cross between 2D and 3D.

There's so much other stuff to perfect first though.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PureForce:

id love to have the 3d but it would introduce alot more liscensing problems in showing all the players (i know there is some trouble already in showing premiership logos etc from the official version) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Players are already liscenced in the game from FIFAPro. The 3D wont change the liscencing in any way.

3D deffo it would look cool 2D is just wee dots running about

The point of FM has never been about graphics. The graphics were just a representation of the sim, so 2D or 3D it makes absolutely no difference.

That said, IF the possibility of 3D means nothing else comes away from the game I'd welcome it as I do all new additions - providing it works properly.

I doubt it'll be for a few years yet, though. Basic home computing technology needs to catch up.

2D all the way for me. I personally don't think 3D would work that well in this game and you may find what you see becoming very repetative very quickly.

2D every time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PureForce:

3d is where this game will be going, there is no doubt, the emergence of so many other 3d football </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because those are the games we want FM to become like

^ quote was meant to read:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">3d is where this game will be going, there is no doubt, the emergence of so many other 3d football games (pro evo, fifa etc) show that its a winner </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate this forum

i want 3D, but NOT like FIFA or pro evo type. I dont want to see avatar with realistic features running around, because that will create a lag in the game and probably create hell a lot more issues. All i want to see is blobs (or sticks figures) moving in a 3D space.

2D Looks great to me, I have a great imagination and I can see the two Ronnies strutting their stuff.

But CM06 had a great 3D view

i would like a 3d match engine, but ony if it was perfect. id chosse dots running round to a really shabby 3d players.

I would love to see a 3D match engine but its not currently going to be good enough. Mostly because matches can become repetitive and also its a major problem to recreate every player. Im a SWFC fan and on FIFA, before the roster update, Mark Beevers looked nothing like him and it annoyed the hell out of me so thats another big problem I have with it.

we won't see a 3D for at least some 5-10 years now, imho. there's so much potential in 2D that hasn't been reached yet. this is a simulation game and I would like to see real 90 min of a game, not 15 like Fifa or PES (I don't realy know how long games last there but probably there's a mode where you can choose between 10, 15, 20.. lol )

I wonder how buggy and repeatative would 3D be in this moment

The repetition is the worst thing about 3D match engines. They all seem to be so limited compared to the 2D one we have at the moment.

You never really see the same thing twice except for set pieces, but that's to be expected. But i dont think you would get this range if a 3D engine was installed

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The_Kreman:

The repetition is the worst thing about 3D match engines. They all seem to be so limited compared to the 2D one we have at the moment.

You never really see the same thing twice except for set pieces, but that's to be expected. But i dont think you would get this range if a 3D engine was installed </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. I recall when LMA Manager on PS2 started showing 3D highlights of the game with that Lineker commentary. It got boring very quickly because it looked like every highlight was based on one of 10 or so preset moves and the commentary got very repetitive. You ended up pressing continue through them all. And despite the computing power of today, I'm still not convinced we have enough yet or the programming techniques.

I think the game would have to move on a massive amount before you could get an accurate AI representation of the match engine that looked as good and varied as a two player game of Pro Evo or Fifa.

2D all the way. Every 3D match engine I've seen has been very poor. They may look nicer, but realism is far more important to me, and the current 2D engine is way ahead of any 3D engine in that department.

2D is also far better from a tactical viewpoint which is a huge advantage as well.

I definitely prefer 2D. Sure 3D match engines have moved on in leaps and bounds since 3-4 years ago when I bought one of the sims with a 3d match engine, but it got boring fairly quickly when the novelty wore off and you just see the same moves being repeated time after time.

I am far more interested in the tactics and accurate simulation (and all the research and other stuff) than watching artificial footballers ponce around a pitch - I can see that in real life football, I don't need to be managing them.

Without question, with today's technology and processing power, 2D is the only game in town.

A 3D engine would need 4 to 5 years of design, R&D, test bedding, programming, tuning and integration into the game engine, as well as an ever increasing number of staff and testers, just to be at the level of CM4.

The sad fact is that if a proper, real-time 3D football management simulation engine was possible, we would have seen it already or at least be told about it by another developer (LMA and its ilk do NOT count). A 3D engine might be the future, but it's a long, long way away.

I'm all for a good 3D match display, but EA has been trying to do that and failing miserably for about 10 years now... so it's not gonna happen anytime soon.

It's better to stick to the 2D and focus on polishing up the really important bits.

I think a good isometric view without trying to go with everything possible would work nicely until a really good 3D game could be made. Championship manager has a good example.

I would like to see when a player is on the ground, or how high crosses are coming in, or if the tackle is a slide tackle or not. This would make the game much more realistic. However, this does not require full 3D figures that look just like people. I don't need every stepover, shoulder charge, or jump to have all teh looks of a real person.

2D. 2D all the ****ing way!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

I think a good isometric view without trying to go with everything possible would work nicely until a really good 3D game could be made. Championship manager has a good example.

I would like to see when a player is on the ground, or how high crosses are coming in, or if the tackle is a slide tackle or not. This would make the game much more realistic. However, this does not require full 3D figures that look just like people. I don't need every stepover, shoulder charge, or jump to have all teh looks of a real person. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

I think a good isometric view without trying to go with everything possible would work nicely until a really good 3D game could be made. Championship manager has a good example.

I would like to see when a player is on the ground, or how high crosses are coming in, or if the tackle is a slide tackle or not. This would make the game much more realistic. However, this does not require full 3D figures that look just like people. I don't need every stepover, shoulder charge, or jump to have all teh looks of a real person. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats defineltey the next step for he FM engine to go.

Many people go on about the Pro Evo match engine, but if they watched an AI v AI game, they would realise just how poor it is. Not only would SI have to get the very basics of the macth right, they would then need to get the player anmations right as well, otherwise we would be left with a joke of an engine. It would be a lot more work and for what?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

I think a good isometric view without trying to go with everything possible would work nicely until a really good 3D game could be made. Championship manager has a good example.

I would like to see when a player is on the ground, or how high crosses are coming in, or if the tackle is a slide tackle or not. This would make the game much more realistic. However, this does not require full 3D figures that look just like people. I don't need every stepover, shoulder charge, or jump to have all teh looks of a real person. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well I think CM ME is just terrible from what I've seen. all that you wrote should be covered by much better commentary than it is now.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

I think a good isometric view without trying to go with everything possible would work nicely until a really good 3D game could be made. Championship manager has a good example.

I would like to see when a player is on the ground, or how high crosses are coming in, or if the tackle is a slide tackle or not. This would make the game much more realistic. However, this does not require full 3D figures that look just like people. I don't need every stepover, shoulder charge, or jump to have all teh looks of a real person. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well I think CM ME is just terrible from what I've seen. all that you wrote should be covered by much better commentary than it is now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The CM engine might be terrible, but thats due to the way it's been implemented. With better implementation, a similar engine would certainly have potential, and whether it proved to be a better option or not, it would definetley be worth looking at.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

well I think CM ME is just terrible from what I've seen. all that you wrote should be covered by much better commentary than it is now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I in no way meant the match engine used in CM is better, otherwise I would be playing it. I mean the view is better as it allows you to see different things. As far as I can figure, there is nothing that an isometric view would show that is already not calculated in the game.

So to summarize, FM match engine with a CM similar view.

personally i dont even watch the 2D because im so used to cm01/02 (only switched from it when the current version came out ) so id rather see the existing features improved first

I just realy don't like what I've seen in CM. it looks horible for me. only my opinon. I like it as it is and I think it must improve, commentary also, until it becomes 'perfect'. than move to 3d in lat's say 10 years

why cant we edit our damn posts grr anyway i meant existing features developed before 3D implemented

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ben James Smith:

personally i dont even watch the 2D because im so used to cm01/02 (only switched from it when the current version came out ) so id rather see the existing features improved first </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow, you don't know what you're missing. have a look at one game on full mode on medium speed, just for a change...

I HATE the CM match engine. The tilted pitch looks horrible in my opinion.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

I just realy don't like what I've seen in CM. it looks horible for me. only my opinon. I like it as it is and I think it must improve, commentary also, until it becomes 'perfect'. than move to 3d in lat's say 10 years </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just curious, but what parts do you not like about how it looks?

mix of 2d and 3d. I don't know how to describe it...idiotic, maybe

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

mix of 2d and 3d. I don't know how to describe it...idiotic, maybe </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a relatively poorly backed opinion. Can you be more specific? Do you not like that fact that the 3D fails to have real players and has the cone/chess looking things instead? Are you against the view? Or are you just saying you don't like 3D for the sake of saying it?

I think 2D would be best.

I like the 2D, not always easy, but it's easier to have different features for it like having opponents formation on the side.

I'd stick with 2D since there's so many leagues, people like to have a wide variety of leagues in their game running, making it 3D could lessen that plus make the game take longer to simulate and stuff like that.

Maybe in the future, but not anytime soon.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunner:

I think 2D would be best.

I like the 2D, not always easy, but it's easier to have different features for it like having opponents formation on the side. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good observation. If you like watching in split screen mode I do think the 2D is better.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunner:

I'd stick with 2D since there's so many leagues, people like to have a wide variety of leagues in their game running, making it 3D could lessen that plus make the game take longer to simulate and stuff like that.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong, but having the game displayed in 3D does nothing to the background processing of games. The games are not each played in 2D in the present game, and would not be played in 3D just because the game you watch is. The match engine and the display are mutually exclusive. Si will improve the match engine, and how it is displayed will not effect how it is processed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lonestar007:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunner:

I think 2D would be best.

I like the 2D, not always easy, but it's easier to have different features for it like having opponents formation on the side. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good observation. If you like watching in split screen mode I do think the 2D is better.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunner:

I'd stick with 2D since there's so many leagues, people like to have a wide variety of leagues in their game running, making it 3D could lessen that plus make the game take longer to simulate and stuff like that.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong, but having the game displayed in 3D does nothing to the background processing of games. The games are not each played in 2D in the present game, and would not be played in 3D just because the game you watch is. The match engine and the display are mutually exclusive. Si will improve the match engine, and how it is displayed will not effect how it is processed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I probably didn't think hard enough about the second reason.

But I enjoy having split screen view due to that 4-2-4 formation the computer brings out.

But I guess you can't stick with the same match engine look forever. But it will be more flashy when it does become 3D eventually.

But SI should take their time with it, 3D doesn't make a game better. Just look how many people enjoy FM over Fifa Manager. So it's really a project.

If it does happen, I can see them releasing a Beta type thing for invited users to test it out much like FM Live to get some opinions on it.

2D- they cant even get that right, let alone 3D.