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View Full Version : What do we want...information. When do we want it...now



martinw
26-01-2009, 12:50
Having read through a lot of threads over the past few years and played the game from 50 to 09, I've come to the conclusion that the game isn't broken. It has bugs (some bigger than others), but it is essentially a good game and far ahead of the competition.

What's missing is information.

For example, in French League 1, a team is allowed to sign four foreign players, but nowhere in the game does it tell you who counts as a foreigner. To those of us who live in Europe, it may be obvious that EU nationals are not 'foreign'. But is it obvious to those gamers who live in the USA or in Asia.

Even less obvious, unless you have a grasp of the history of the French African Empire, is that Algerian, Moroccan and Ivorian nationals are not classed as foreigners. But would you have guessed Kenyan, Albanian and South African?

Does anyone know the rules for bringing non nationals into Britain, Portugal, Russia or Brazil? Where is this information?

I don't want a manual that requires two posties in a van to deliver it, but I would like this information to be available within the game.

The same goes for the tactical side of FM. The AI doesn't cheat, it just 'knows' how to play the game: what to change, what teamtalk will work best with each player etc. It is programmed to understand the ramifications of changing one slider or a set of sliders. We aren't; we have to guess what to do, with a little guidance from the Assistant.

We don't need an 'easier' game, just more information about how to play it.

Agree or disagree?

Bababui
26-01-2009, 12:56
An excellent and useful idea!!

senorcoo
26-01-2009, 13:05
Yup, been waiting for this for a LONG time. Something tells me we're going to keep waiting for it.

Ah Fat
26-01-2009, 15:28
some info needed like the days you need for a player to gain nationality in spain without actually sending him there...
Some EPL teams like Arsenal have Spanish work permit feeder club and less experienced FMers will send Asians there to get work permit...

Rupal
26-01-2009, 15:31
In reply to the original post...agree!

Micado
26-01-2009, 15:36
some info needed like the days you need for a player to gain nationality in spain without actually sending him there...
Some EPL teams like Arsenal have Spanish work permit feeder club and less experienced FMers will send Asians there to get work permit...

You can look it up in FM (takes some time), just click on a foreign player in any country and in his personal menu at the bottom you can see the days before he gains that nationality.


Originally Posted by Micado
Have checked some in my current 09 game.
It is in Day's

Code:
Austria - 1825
Belgium - 1095
Czech Republic - 1825
Denmark - 2555
France, including French Guyana - 1825
Germany - 2920
Greece - 3650
Holland - 1825
Italy - 1825
Latvia - 1825
Lithuania - 1825
Luxembourg - 1825
Malta - 1825
Martinique - 1825
Norway - 1825
Poland - 1095
Portugal - 1825
Slovenia - 3650
Spain - 730 (for South Americans) 3650
Sweden - 1825
Switzerland - 1825
United Kingdom - 1825

List of some nations and how long it take to gain nationality.
And yes if the player is from S. America then it takes only 2 years to gain Spanish nationality
For Spain it is only 2 years if the player is form South America.
But I agree, would be nice to these items included in the game somewhere (maybe via a link to a official site or so).

philipv
26-01-2009, 15:44
The game almost needs something like a football reference/encyclopedia, which would contain all this kind of stuff

TheRealMagpies
26-01-2009, 15:47
The game almost needs something like a football reference/encyclopedia, which would contain all this kind of stuff

what like an FMWiki ??

martinw
26-01-2009, 16:51
The game almost needs something like a football reference/encyclopedia, which would contain all this kind of stuff

Maybe this should be a 'new feature' for FM10?

CrashOverride
26-01-2009, 20:21
Agree this could defintley be a good and useful inclusion for future games. One of the things thats always put me off managing in other countries is my lack of understanding about the regulations concerning foriegn players and the rules for signing them. I know you can probably find it in the game some where but a quick refence guide in game rather than having to rtfm could encourage me to venture futher afield than England Italy and Spain.

outlaw640
26-01-2009, 20:29
If you click on rules in the league menu you can see all this.

JDownie
26-01-2009, 20:41
When I seen the title, I was expecting some lame post, which was a rant, demanding that we want to know 'when the next patch comes out'.

Happily, I've been surprised.
Good post. I agree, too.

Wee Aja
26-01-2009, 20:45
More information can't be a bad thing :thup:

CrashOverride
26-01-2009, 20:52
If you click on rules in the league menu you can see all this.


Yeah agreed but that means I have to load the league to find out it has some really dodgy rules that might mean I wont enjoy my game:confused:

If I could read about the league before I loaded a new game it could make life a lot easier.

small Mac
26-01-2009, 20:58
I totally agree with being given more information. For example on '08 i played in Belarus and there was a limit of 5 foreigners per squad. What the game didn't tell me was that Russians, Ukrainians and Kazakhs didn't count as foreigners - i found this out purely through luck. I bit of a better explaination of all the weird and wonderful rules, especially in this area, would certainly be much appreciated.

pyewackett
26-01-2009, 21:02
what like an FMWiki ??



Yeah I agree, as yes you can click on rules, or history or some other link, though I have only stumbled upon this in when I've played. Either links in the game GUI or via other users posts on this very forum. Though instead of .....'Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah; Aha! I can click this too moment.'

It would be nice to have some form of Wiki I know there's a game help, plus the game manual but an informatitive wiki surely can't go amis as I do visit sites like Wikipedia on when I choose to play in foreign nations.

When I do I haven't the foggiest on what to do, or what is happening only to be reffered to web sites in another tongue, on on here for help. The game can only go so far. A wiki would be cool. Or at leasr informative at least.

boywonder9
26-01-2009, 21:22
The same goes for the tactical side of FM. The AI doesn't cheat, it just 'knows' how to play the game: what to change, what teamtalk will work best with each player etc. It is programmed to understand the ramifications of changing one slider or a set of sliders. We aren't; we have to guess what to do, with a little guidance from the Assistant.
Agree or disagree?

I agree on the need for more info, but not on your thoughts on tactics. I don't know about "cheating", but the ME definitely does not do a great job of rewarding human managed teams that set up tactics that has them statistically outplaying AI opponents. In league games, I almost always win possession battles, have more shots (that rarely hit the net), CCCs, complete more passes, win more headers, etc etc etc. The talent level of my player is equal, or comparable, to other teams. Yet my side is usually only a bit into the top half of table at end of season. Good tactics don't translate to good results way too often from a human manager perspective. But once the AI get's their tactics or team talks right they thump me. So is the ME messing with results? Not rewarding good-great tactics from human managers? I think a lot of people are in my boat. They're told it is their tactics, but everything that is given to measure their tactics says that they are doing it right, and outplaying their opponents. So why don't the results follow?

I won a FA Cup replay over a BSN side the other night. In the two games, I outshot them 46 - 2. Nothing to brag about dominating a conference side statistically. But it took me until the 115th minute in extra time of the replay to get the first goal in two games past them. 46 shots and 1 goal over two+ games. I was too annoyed at the ME to even enjoy getting through to next round.

ChipK
27-01-2009, 09:19
I agree on the need for more info, but not on your thoughts on tactics. I don't know about "cheating", but the ME definitely does not do a great job of rewarding human managed teams that set up tactics that has them statistically outplaying AI opponents. In league games, I almost always win possession battles, have more shots (that rarely hit the net), CCCs, complete more passes, win more headers, etc etc etc. The talent level of my player is equal, or comparable, to other teams. Yet my side is usually only a bit into the top half of table at end of season. Good tactics don't translate to good results way too often from a human manager perspective. But once the AI get's their tactics or team talks right they thump me. So is the ME messing with results? Not rewarding good-great tactics from human managers? I think a lot of people are in my boat. They're told it is their tactics, but everything that is given to measure their tactics says that they are doing it right, and outplaying their opponents. So why don't the results follow?

I won a FA Cup replay over a BSN side the other night. In the two games, I outshot them 46 - 2. Nothing to brag about dominating a conference side statistically. But it took me until the 115th minute in extra time of the replay to get the first goal in two games past them. 46 shots and 1 goal over two+ games. I was too annoyed at the ME to even enjoy getting through to next round.

I agree that the ME is not doing a good job when it comes to calculating the winner of a match. Maybe it calculates the results first and the stats afterwards? If thats the case then SI should change it so that a dominating team will win more often than it does now.
But more and better information on tactics, teamtalks and other things can also shed some light on why dominating teams fail to win so often, and could perhaps reduce the number of frustrated managers.

Some Guy!
27-01-2009, 09:39
My Derby side has had 3 losses in the league in 4 years. Dominating most matches of course. Hasn't been a problem to me.

ham_aka_stam
27-01-2009, 10:01
When I seen the title, I was expecting some lame post, which was a rant, demanding that we want to know 'when the next patch comes out'.

Happily, I've been surprised.
Good post. I agree, too.

I'm with you, good post! *hopes not to sound patronising* :D

Smac
27-01-2009, 11:15
If you click on rules in the league menu you can see all this.

Some, but not all. Its gotten better each year but the finer points, especially around transfer/registration/foreigner rules could be a lot more detailed. Some of the rules are not mentioned at all.

boywonder9
27-01-2009, 17:31
My Derby side has had 3 losses in the league in 4 years. Dominating most matches of course. Hasn't been a problem to me.

That's great. And maybe it is different in the Premier League, where you can attract and buy talent that can trump the issue with tactics and the ME. But as a LLM manager, buying top of the line talent is difficult, so you work with similar talent levels and need your tactical strength to be reflected in results. It's not happening for me, and from what I've been reading in other posts, with quite a few other folks.

martinw
28-01-2009, 12:22
I'm with you, good post! *hopes not to sound patronising* :D

Not patronising at all. Appreciate the comment.

martinw
28-01-2009, 12:24
Some, but not all. Its gotten better each year but the finer points, especially around transfer/registration/foreigner rules could be a lot more detailed. Some of the rules are not mentioned at all.

Agreed. The general info is there (how many foreigners etc), but nothing specific (who is a foreigner etc).

Could this information be made available via a pdf download from SI?

Ter
28-01-2009, 12:50
Could this information be made available via a pdf download from SI?

I can't see us spending lots of time creating PDF files when a better solution would be to incorporate it into the game somehow.

martinw
28-01-2009, 15:48
I can't see us spending lots of time creating PDF files when a better solution would be to incorporate it into the game somehow.

I was thinking of a 'quick hit' for 09. If it's easier to issue a patch even better.

Will this level of information be available in FM10?

Ter
28-01-2009, 15:59
It's definitely not going to happen for FM2009 that's for sure.

martinw
28-01-2009, 18:06
It's definitely not going to happen for FM2009 that's for sure.

So there's a chance for FM10. Or will we need to wait until FM11?

cfc4life
28-01-2009, 18:46
Or will it ever be incorporated?

Ter
28-01-2009, 20:38
I can't answer that. We don't comment on whether any features may make it into a specific game.

I personally like the idea though and will be putting it forward if it's not been put forward already (I think it is anyway)

AB-forever
28-01-2009, 21:08
Another thing that could be incorporated into this idea:

If the league faces any rule changes in the next 5 seasons. For example I'm playing in the Russian Premier League where you can have up to 7 foreigners in the first 11. Fine. But what I didn't know was that after the first season the allowed number of foreigners would decrease by 1 every season. It's now down to 5 and I don't know when it's gonna stop :p

eple
29-01-2009, 01:06
Regarding tactics I guess it would be hard to give any other information/in-game advices other than general stuff that may or may not work depending on the version of the ME. The assistant feedback idea is good, but except for som pre-programmed respones it doesn't seem to have any actual use cos the advices are not related to what is effective or ineffective within the ME. Different things work in every incarnation. I.e. My tactics have changed a lot since last patch cos the previous one went from being extremely good to extremely poor just by hitting 'update'.

GB68
29-01-2009, 01:15
Another thing that could be incorporated into this idea:

If the league faces any rule changes in the next 5 seasons. For example I'm playing in the Russian Premier League where you can have up to 7 foreigners in the first 11. Fine. But what I didn't know was that after the first season the allowed number of foreigners would decrease by 1 every season. It's now down to 5 and I don't know when it's gonna stop :p


I'm not sure about the decreasing number? I'm only playing in 1st Div, where its a 3 foriegner rule. But the annoying part is, I took it mean you could have 3 foriegners in the starting 11. And substitutes where outside that rule. But if you have a foriegner on the bench, you have to sub one of the original starting 3 foriegners to get him on the pitch.
So, really it should read something like "only 3 foriegners on the field at any time" or so?

I just found the rule was a little ambiguous.

AB-forever
29-01-2009, 19:46
I'm not sure about the decreasing number? I'm only playing in 1st Div, where its a 3 foriegner rule. But the annoying part is, I took it mean you could have 3 foriegners in the starting 11. And substitutes where outside that rule. But if you have a foriegner on the bench, you have to sub one of the original starting 3 foriegners to get him on the pitch.
So, really it should read something like "only 3 foriegners on the field at any time" or so?

I just found the rule was a little ambiguous.

I'm 1000% sure :p it was 7 in 2009, 6 in 2010 and now it's 5 in 2011.

About the starting 11-thing: yes I also thought it was ambiguous (made a thread about it as well) but people didn't agree with me.

martinw
29-01-2009, 20:09
I can't answer that. We don't comment on whether any features may make it into a specific game.

I personally like the idea though and will be putting it forward if it's not been put forward already (I think it is anyway)

As Mr Burns would say: 'Eggggcellent'.

Thanks for your time Ter.

Pricey85
30-01-2009, 11:04
Bit late in the day but i'd just like to say i totally agree with the poster. Nice one.