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View Full Version : Long-term playability is atrocious



5iver
25-01-2009, 22:54
This is an area of the game which I feel has not really been improved, and is at the same levels of 01/02 for me! I started a game with Kavala in the Greek 2nd division. I got them promoted in my first season, qualified for UEFA Cup in my first year in the 1st division, qulified for Champions League by finishing 2nd in my 2nd season in the top flight, and finally managed to win the Greek 1st Division in the season 2013/2014. My reputation had grown rightly, had several job offers until that point, but get an offer from valencia in the summer of 2013. I accept and the team is simply atrocious. So many of the original players from the 08/09 season are still there, and all the players are extremely old. Furthermore, signings that were made were of old players too, they had signed Gattuso at 32 and he is now 35. The team has virtually been ruined by poor AI managing.

This issue MUST be resolved for the next FM. Enough is enough. One approach I recommend is to give great emphasis on the manager ratings regarding transfers. If they have a good record, they will sign players of equal/higher CA & PA, and if they are good at spotting young players, they will more likely sign players with high PA etc. etc.

Somehow AI teams should learn to sign players, who are of at least comparable CA to their current squad, and better/worse depending on manager's ratings and luck/adapatability among other issues.

Also, AI clubs should become much more astute in maximising the money they can earn from a player. So Valencia would not have kept Villa until he was 32, but had sold him for a good price, at least by the time he was 27/28 to warrant a big transfer sum.

I have coasted my way to the Greek Premier League, particularly as my opponents sign poor players, or they sign very good ones but too few of them. I simply scout and pick up the latest regens and am storming my way through, I even reached Quarter-Finals of Champions League in my 2nd go! I think a big reason for this was AI poor handling of teams, and I am sure if I had a team of similar quality, but was playing in season 09/10 or 10/11 the competition would have been much more fierce, as the original squads would have been less altered.

As it stands, FM continues to fail to provide a long-term fun game, unless you stick to one club the whole time round.

Would love to have manager profiles and short-term contracts given. Ie. You are approached in february and told to strive against relegation. If you survive relegation, your reputation increases significantly based on the difficulty of the task, and you could develop a reputation of "saving clubs from relegation" and get approached by similar clubs for jobs in the future.

lawsie
25-01-2009, 22:58
yes i agree, c ronaldo playing at 39 years old for man utd, gerrard played till 39 as well, torres was 40 when he retired. It is too much, The teams just simply do not replace them nor even buy in anyone really to replace people they lose.

baker.simon
25-01-2009, 23:00
I agree to a point but i also feel that in long term games its nice to see the power of teams shifting and new teams coming through to chalenge for honours. IRL, its very rare that one team dominates for decades and decades anyway!

5iver
25-01-2009, 23:06
Yes I agree with you, but there are some imbalances that go too far. For example, in my Kavala game I had loaded 3 leagues only (greece, italy, spain) but selected "load all players from" for Romania, and too many of the awesome new regens are Romanian simply for that reason! Romania will be the dominant force of international football in my game for the foreseeable future, merely for that factor.

It wouldn't be unfair to add certain features in ALL games, stating that 'a minimum of x amount of players over every 5 years will be introduced as youth players in country y who will have CA 150 & PA 180.

5iver
26-01-2009, 01:46
It would be nice if they had a code which said "90% of teams can only rise/fall from their current squad's CA & PA overall ratings by 25%" and have a 10% increase/drop in club stature.

george08
26-01-2009, 01:56
I just feel there are too many " major " bugs that affect the long term playability

1) The ai's control of players, allowing them to play until they are very old

2)Some teams being stupidly overpowered as AI,arsenal man city etc

3) the bojan bug

and others

deejay10
26-01-2009, 03:45
AI transfer policy definitely needs looking at. I had a Serie A game, where Ancelotti was still manager of AC Milan. He continued to use his 4-3-2-1 no wingers formation, yet kept on signing expensive wide players, yet never playing them! They signed Guardado, Obertan, and Behrami all on massive transfer fees, yet they barely played a single match!

That money would have been much better used to strengthen the team in other areas, such as the defence where they really needed it.

There needs to be far greater competition for signings, especially for high PA youngsters. IRL The biggest and richest clubs are scouring the world for the best young talent and signing it up, eg. Man Utd's recent deal to sign Lajic and Tosic, but this hardly ever happens in FM. Iv never seen Wenger sign youth prospects, he barely makes one signing a season, and that is mostly a highly expensive established player. AI transfer policy is as big an issue as the match engine! I want to be challenged in game and in the transfer market.

woody2goody
26-01-2009, 03:55
I agree with these posts wholeheartedly although I've never really had a long game on an FM.

The Ljajic and Tosic deal is a fantastic example of an already great team looking for good young players. Tosic is a newly established international regular, and Ljajic is a very very good prospect at 17 years old I think. Tosic is already playing and learning the English game, and Ljajic , after his 'loan-back' season in Serbia could potentially be a regular 5-7 years from now. This is great squad building and future planning.

You should see more of the AI in the Premier League buying top Champ and League One teams' best youngsters, and less of them buying 35 year old veterans. Yes, the odd 35 year old, if they are good enough, every couple of years is realistic, but reputation is too much of a factor when signing players and not necessarily potential or how they will fit in with their squad.

Mintah
26-01-2009, 05:44
I completely agree that there is a game-breaking problem with the AI's transfer policy. It is currently ruining my career game. Somehow I get the feeling that I am the only manager with scouts in South America, being as I can sign the best Brazilian and Argentinian talent year after year for pennies on the dollar with no competition whatsoever to speak of. No matter what shiny new additions are added to the game each year, if this issue isn't fixed, then FM becomes a one-night stand instead of the long-term marriage it should be.

Come to think of it, I think this and the infamous "Bojan Bug" go hand in hand. Simply put, AI managers are completely oblivious to the value of young players, no matter how talented, either in buying them or keeping them.

Mr.Grandpa
26-01-2009, 07:54
Well another thing that hurts realism in long term games is staff members (chairman's, directors, managers, scouts, coaches). I downloaded Genie Scout program just to show this because I think that retirement of the staff should also be considered in the new patch or at least in the new FM. I'm currently in the year 2022 and it sucks to still see this kind of staff around I mean come on where's the realism in this.
http://www.shrani.si/f/32/X5/2TafG6gF/job.jpghttp://www.shrani.si/f/3j/cP/325mOWvj/job1.jpg
Sure i see a takeover here and there but having 90+ years old staff well that's just silly. I have a big problem with player's and staff retirements in this game because if I play a long term career game I like to see some staff changes which I think is realistic but here I have a majority of people still in their starting clubs and that's totally unrealistic and is ruining my fun of a long term game.

baker.simon
26-01-2009, 08:38
The thing is, to tweak this SI would have to be very careful. Too much the other way and your key players retiring early.

Themistofelis
26-01-2009, 09:21
Olympiacos SFP had a +80 years old staff till lately , ok 93 is excessive but you know pensioners can do some part time job to break the routine .
How about Donato ? he played football until he was 42 , same with Ballotta , 20 years ago players used to retire earlier , human life expectancy increases and so do "creative football years", i think SI is giving you a glimpse to the future there.

Out of topic :

Kavala eh ?

Makis Psomiadis FTW
http://en-gb.facebook.com/group.php?gid=33497904752&ref=share

Beats vampires and lycans hands down in the underworld

backpackant
26-01-2009, 10:02
In FM08 the players' attributes dropped so quickly it was like their 32nd birthday present was a car accident. Now their attributes don't drop much at all.

There needs to be a happy medium, but whereas in 08 it started in their early 30s and dropped too quickly, and I would always sell a player - no matter how good or what their average rating was - as soon as they hit the magic number 32, surely there should be gradual decline. I expect it's a programming issue. I'm sure it should be linked to professionalism, natural fitness, stamina and the like, but at the moment, the all-or-nothing approach needs to change.

stuboy
26-01-2009, 12:15
Has it got worse than the old day when there were just regens? I know regens had their problems but it helped keep a good balance. I haven't had a long term game for ages, I play to slowly, so I can't really comment but it sounds pretty bad.

doc_
26-01-2009, 13:28
Quite frankly, I don't think the problem lies with the players ability - or not - to continue to play professional football at 35 and up; the problem is that they don't retire.

I really do think that SI has got last years rapid decrease issue solved, and believe that it sould stay the way it is.

The problem is that, normally, players retire because they get old and not worse, and the game isn't retiring them.



Giggs, Figo, maldini, all great players who still play. They're not as fast as they were and probably aren't as in shape as well. They don't score as much, don't play as much, get injured more often, longer and with worst prognosis. But that is why the attributes in the game go down: in order for this to happen.

So what is wrong then?


At a certain point in life, all players know that they can't cope with playing as well as when they started. So, they sign a final contract, in order to finish their careers at a certain club. One year deals, 2 years or even 3 years, but it's their FINAL contract. There is always the odd case, sure, that could be solved with player interaction. But that's another story.


If a player came to me saying "this is my final contract" then I would have time to know that I had to find a player for his position.

Me, and probably the AI too.

postal postie
26-01-2009, 13:53
i have to agree. player signing by AI teams has to be more intelligent.
although they have fixed some of it (previuosly the teams would buy 7 top class strikers completely forgetting that they needed defenders)
it still needs more work on it.

deejay10
26-01-2009, 16:52
Yes i posted about the retirement issue in another thread too. The problem is not the players attributes decllining too slowly, i actually think SI have got it about right. IRL The Del Piero's Maldini's, Cannavaro's are all way older than 32 and playing at the highest level. Simply wasn;t possible in 08, more possible in 09 though. But players and staff just don't want to retire! Retirement needs to be linked to career injuries, playing time the player is currently getting, their future ambitions in coaching or management, and their professionalism, determination and natural fitness. Long term games are frustrating because of the AI's lack of investment in youth and the fact that players refuse to retire.

doc_
26-01-2009, 17:18
Exactly what deejay10 said.

Spot on.

Aaron_AO
26-01-2009, 17:23
will this be fixed in 903?

no.

Chris Ritchie
26-01-2009, 17:47
Thanks for all the feedback in this thread. This is something that I'm planning to look at in some depth so hopefully we'll see some improvement.

Aaron_AO
26-01-2009, 17:52
did any of the playtesting team even just holiday a game for 10-15 seasons and check the clubs/players/transfers?

cos thats such as a simple thing to do IMO. its one of the first things i'd do. :/

Mintah
26-01-2009, 19:37
did any of the playtesting team even just holiday a game for 10-15 seasons and check the clubs/players/transfers?

cos thats such as a simple thing to do IMO. its one of the first things i'd do. :/

I don't think the problem is what happens at the end of a 15-year holiday, but rather, what happens in the intervening years.

deejay10
26-01-2009, 19:52
Glad to see this issue is being looked at. Obviously the match engine is most important, but the biggest improvements to the game can definitely be made in AI transfer policy. Whenever im in pre-season, im often just willing my AI rivals to make quality signings, that, and willing my ageing players to retire already!

Aaron_AO
26-01-2009, 20:30
if you holiday for 15 years, you can clearly see the transfer history of each club.

a quick scan at barca and seeing bojan going for free shows problems.
a quick scan at liverpools squad and seeing an average age of 31 shows problems.

a long term holiday alone gives u a broad scope on what happens within the intervening years.

daveduerson
26-01-2009, 21:11
Thanks for all the feedback in this thread. This is something that I'm planning to look at in some depth so hopefully we'll see some improvement.

Good news. Thanks. Does this mean it'll be looked at for 9.03? Hope so, as I've given up playing for now precisely because of the problems mentioned above.

Seems strange that it's happened though. Long-term AI squad sense seemed much better in FM07 so could that just not be implemented again for this game?

Kickballz
27-01-2009, 21:43
I also hope Chris Ritchie means he is going to look at fixing it for the next patch, as opposed to improving it for fm10.

Since long term playability is one of the appeals of the game, the issues brought up here are game breaking for many players and I can't imagine they will be happy about waiting another year for a game that isn't broken in this way. This is why so many people end up resorting to earlier versions.

Mintah
29-01-2009, 23:55
It will be good to know whether this issue will be looked at for the next patch or whether we should pack in FM09 and begin the wait for FM10.

Argel
30-01-2009, 00:31
It'll be 2010 now I imagine. There's probably very little that can be done now, as I imagine that the patch would be about ready now. Remember that if they have 2 weeks, they need to completely test all the things they have changed to test whether they have had repercussions elsewhere in the game world.

Sadly, it's a never ending fight. As someone says, common sense would dictate that you pop the game on holiday and explore the game world 10 years down the line...

atonement
30-01-2009, 00:49
im someone that likes a career game, building up a lowly blue square south team to european glory

sadly by the time i arrive in the premier league the AI seems too incompetent in the transfer market to compete with me, which means after years of hard work to get into the prem im left with the hollow experience of letting loose my pacey young striker on the now wizened john terry; totally cheapening all the initial hard work and satisfaction

i really hope SI sort this out as it is, for the way i play the game, a game breaker

decent match engine & decent artifical intelligence > artifice & flash half baked features

Drake44444
30-01-2009, 02:04
This is an area of the game which I feel has not really been improved, and is at the same levels of 01/02 for me! I started a game with Kavala in the Greek 2nd division. I got them promoted in my first season, qualified for UEFA Cup in my first year in the 1st division, qulified for Champions League by finishing 2nd in my 2nd season in the top flight, and finally managed to win the Greek 1st Division in the season 2013/2014. My reputation had grown rightly, had several job offers until that point, but get an offer from valencia in the summer of 2013. I accept and the team is simply atrocious. So many of the original players from the 08/09 season are still there, and all the players are extremely old. Furthermore, signings that were made were of old players too, they had signed Gattuso at 32 and he is now 35. The team has virtually been ruined by poor AI managing.

This issue MUST be resolved for the next FM. Enough is enough. One approach I recommend is to give great emphasis on the manager ratings regarding transfers. If they have a good record, they will sign players of equal/higher CA & PA, and if they are good at spotting young players, they will more likely sign players with high PA etc. etc.

Somehow AI teams should learn to sign players, who are of at least comparable CA to their current squad, and better/worse depending on manager's ratings and luck/adapatability among other issues.

Also, AI clubs should become much more astute in maximising the money they can earn from a player. So Valencia would not have kept Villa until he was 32, but had sold him for a good price, at least by the time he was 27/28 to warrant a big transfer sum.

I have coasted my way to the Greek Premier League, particularly as my opponents sign poor players, or they sign very good ones but too few of them. I simply scout and pick up the latest regens and am storming my way through, I even reached Quarter-Finals of Champions League in my 2nd go! I think a big reason for this was AI poor handling of teams, and I am sure if I had a team of similar quality, but was playing in season 09/10 or 10/11 the competition would have been much more fierce, as the original squads would have been less altered.

As it stands, FM continues to fail to provide a long-term fun game, unless you stick to one club the whole time round.

Would love to have manager profiles and short-term contracts given. Ie. You are approached in february and told to strive against relegation. If you survive relegation, your reputation increases significantly based on the difficulty of the task, and you could develop a reputation of "saving clubs from relegation" and get approached by similar clubs for jobs in the future.


Whats the problem? They hired you because they were ruined. The good clubs won't have vacancies to hire a greek coach.

ypzo
13-04-2009, 11:47
I am thinking might this be due to the lack of difficulty levels in the game. Experienced gamers know all the tricks and know-hows to win the game easy but many newbies I know have a super hard time even getting good teams to finish the leagues in respectable positions. Surely SI have to strike a balance on how good the AIs managers are, if not most gamers wont even find the game playable! Personally for me, playing ten over seasons in the english league now, I find a good balance in good teams declining while poorer ones rise up. Perhaps in future releases SI can include a difficulty level for the hardcore gamers?

elsgouro
13-04-2009, 12:49
Whats the problem? They hired you because they were ruined. The good clubs won't have vacancies to hire a greek coach.

And you clearly got the point of the OP (or have an issue with Greek managers) :rolleyes:

Anyway, the bigest problem for a long term save is obviously the AI squad management. And to point out another problem related to the OP (which has also been brought up in other threads), AI teams refuse to play world class players they've bought (usually regens), selling them on the cheap a couple of years later. Imo, if we could see an improvement to at least 2 of these issues (ageing squads, world class signings), the game would be 100% more enjoyable and challenging in long term saves.

Wayne\'o
13-04-2009, 12:59
i think its all about making the game look glosy and keep sales high, adding new features may make people think wow i got to buy that game when it comes to market, this problem has been around for years and it does spoil long term games.. there isnt no where near enough time spent making the AI keep squads young and full of talent..

zoopaloola
13-04-2009, 15:37
Someone from SI recently said it's something to do with the difficult with getting the testing done over long term games without holidaying but that they were starting testing for Fm2010 earlier this year so perhaps these issues will finally be sorted out.

ViG1980
13-04-2009, 17:57
It's more than just players not retiring - AI managers shouldn't be playing 38 year olds with 5 in stamina regardless of whether that player wants to play or not. Plenty of players play until they are 36 - 38 - in most cases they just end up in the lower divisions with the occasional player actually having the level to play in the top flight until he is older.

The other problem is that AI managers don't plan for the futre so when the 38 year old finally retires there is no one and usually the AI just buys another ageing player to replace him. Man Utd should always have a squad full of youngsters - some from the youth team, some plucked from other youth teams and some expensvie potential "wonderkids." (Unless something major happens in the game that is unique to that game - bankruptcy, years of poor performance leading to much lower repuation etc.)

Invader Canuck
14-04-2009, 09:21
The problem is with reputations.

Players tend to keep their reputation, the "behind the scenes number" even when they decline and this number seems to play a big role in who the AI managers play.

You see it in national teams especially and this leads to lesser known nations becoming powerhouses because their spectacular regens actually get into the first team in their primes.

Player reputations should be multi-faceted. There should be a "peak" reputation, and a sliding reputation based on their current performances. So while Ronaldo was world class in his 20's and maybe early 30's as he declines he doesn't automatically play where ever he signs based on his 2007/2008 season.

lukekarts
14-04-2009, 11:27
I've not played any really long-term games yet.

Anyway, with players playing well into their 30s, what is happening to all the young players who should be replacing them?

Are there simply not enough? Are they all still in youth teams?
Or are we just taking the worst examples whereas in reality there are a good few teams with a core of young players?

Äktsjon Männ
14-04-2009, 13:10
I've not played any really long-term games yet.

Anyway, with players playing well into their 30s, what is happening to all the young players who should be replacing them?

Are there simply not enough? Are they all still in youth teams?
Or are we just taking the worst examples whereas in reality there are a good few teams with a core of young players?

The good regens end up at lower ranked clubs which results in said clubs becoming stronger and the traditional top teams falling off. Eventually, when the high rep real players do retire, those of the traditional top clubs that still have the financial muscle tend to force themselves back into the top spots while those whose finances are a bit fragile due to big loan payments and debts either go bust completely or fade into mediocrity.

Nobby_McDonald
14-04-2009, 23:45
As it stands, FM continues to fail to provide a long-term fun game, unless you stick to one club the whole time round.


Absolute rubbish.

I had two 01/02 saves that last about forty seasons, one online and one offline until both save files died. The online save was the only time I became a top manager, winning four Premier Leagues and two Champions Leagues in ten seasons with Tottenham.

I had an epic with Billericay on 06 that saw me manage them for a total of 27 seasons in two spells. I got as far as 1 FA Cup win and 7th in the Premier League.

I had another Billericay epic on 07 that went along similar lines.

My 08 save reached the late 2060s and I didn't win a bloody thing.

My 09 save has just seen me win the 2018/9 Conference North with Billericay Town, having previously won that and Conference with FC United.

If I didn't find it fun, I wouldn't play it for so long.

The Hobgob
15-04-2009, 00:04
The furthest I have ever got is 2025 and I havent had any issues other than the regen players not being as good as the original players (stats wise not CA/PA) but this is over all clubs so it balances itself out.

However I do agree that the age of retirment needs to be check, this can be easily done by adding an incremental retirement age based upon a hidden attribute cross-referenced to age.

Eg:

if
Enthusiasm (0 = longer) 10 + age 71 > 80

Staff retires.

So then few staff are given the attribute Enthusiasm of 0-5 people they will retire at a sensible age, anywhere between 60 - 80.

This could then use a random number generator between 0-1 and if the number is greater than 0.9 they don't retire, this would leave the odd exception of the rule so a minute number of staff would retire after 80.

Hobgob.

Wakers
15-04-2009, 00:13
Two of these problems - AI transfer policy and AI squad management, have been around since at least CM2. I don't see SI fixing it now. For years people have been saying that the AI Mr Wenger is about as realistic as the 1960s Godzilla movies but they never do anythign about it. There's always more important things to do.

besides, they release the game every year, they probably figure its easy to ignore long term playability so that they can focus on 'useful' features like an actua soccer 2 esque graphics engine..

Wakers
15-04-2009, 00:15
Absolute rubbish.

I had two 01/02 saves that last about forty seasons, one online and one offline until both save files died. The online save was the only time I became a top manager, winning four Premier Leagues and two Champions Leagues in ten seasons with Tottenham.

I had an epic with Billericay on 06 that saw me manage them for a total of 27 seasons in two spells. I got as far as 1 FA Cup win and 7th in the Premier League.

I had another Billericay epic on 07 that went along similar lines.

My 08 save reached the late 2060s and I didn't win a bloody thing.

My 09 save has just seen me win the 2018/9 Conference North with Billericay Town, having previously won that and Conference with FC United.

If I didn't find it fun, I wouldn't play it for so long.

i put this down to an ability to either be able to ignore the problems and not let them ruin your game, or being so immersed in your own team that you don't really notice whats going on at other clubs. The last save game i really enjoyed was in 07, which I still have, but going back to it now, I can clearly see that the success I was having is because every single AI manager uses Greame Souness's patented scouting network.

Nobby_McDonald
15-04-2009, 21:35
When my early days are spent in the lower divisions, I don't pay much attention to what Ferguson, Wenger, Benitez et al are doing in the transfer market in all honesty.

ViG1980
16-04-2009, 00:16
When my early days are spent in the lower divisions, I don't pay much attention to what Ferguson, Wenger, Benitez et al are doing in the transfer market in all honesty.

That doesn't mean it isn't a problem though does it.